Mark Driscoll and his religious business The Trinity Church has a show on Salem Broadcasting Network. In essence, it is a replay of him speaking to his congregation.
Some of the former members and staff of The Trinity Church are bothered that their former pastor is promoted by this show and so they wrote to Salem Broadcasting’s affiliate Faithtalk 1360 in Phoenix to complain. They were represented by Chad Freese who was director of security at the Driscoll church until he quit a few weeks ago.
This in itself is noteworthy because The Trinity Church exiles are following a similar pattern as the former Mars Hill Church members who felt harmed by their experience at the Seattle church. However, what I want to focus on is the reply of Marc Lucas Local Ministry Director at the station. Chad gave me the following email reply:
Hi Chad,We at FaithTalk 1360 have been investigating the claims filed against Mark Driscoll. We are working closely with Dunham Agency to review the information against Mark Driscoll. We appreciate your email to the radio station.Thanks,
Marc Lucas
While it sounds good that the claims are being investigated, check out who is doing the investigating. Lucas says “The Dunham Agency” is working with them. In this story, the claims and former members are in the henhouse, and the Dunham Agency is the fox who is in charge of investigating a mysterious disappearance of some chickens.
One of Mark Driscoll’s long time associates and damage control guru — Randal Taylor — just happens to work for the Dunham Agency. Taylor is also on the board of both Real Faith and The Trinity Church.
Prior to joining Dunham, Taylor worked with Driscoll and Mars Hill Church on video production and public relations messaging. According to former Mars Hill elders I spoke with, Taylor was involved in crafting the videos of Driscoll attempting to do damage control as Mars Hill slipped into crisis mode throughout 2014 (e.g., the “anonymous” video). Gradually, he became a trusted advisor for Driscoll.
Thus, Taylor was involved in damage control at the former church and may be involved in the same activity now. While I can’t prove this (since nobody sees financial statements at The Trinity Church), it is quite possible that The Trinity Church and Real Faith are clients of the Dunham Agency. I asked Marc Lucas about the conflict interest but heard no reply from him.
(Well, scratch the above because it appears the Dunham & Company is a “partner” with Mark Driscoll. In other words, they work or worked for him getting his Real Faith rebrand off the ground.) Watch:
The fix is in.
In any case, if the radio stations maintains this stance, it is clear they have no intention of taking the listener and former member complaints seriously. To my way of thinking, dismissing these concerns would be a mistake. I suspect these complaints could escalate and find more supporters, especially from the Northwest.
UPDATE: Here is another indication of Dunham’s work for Driscoll.
And Driscoll’s testimonial…
If there is an issue with a radio station not taking its listeners’ complaints seriously, remember that the FCC has to renew their license on a periodic basis to see that it meets “the public interest”. So find out when the next renewal is, then flood the FCC and the station with complaints.
O/T: Driscoll’s buddy Jimmy MacDonald is being his ol’ horrible, despicable, self. Now he’s got the cojones to go after the messenger, Julie Roys, complete with sophomoric name-calling (Julie Jezebel, #JRgossipslut, #JRCancerInChristsBody). Just like Jesus would!
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6e81146f78ef06f0fde71d09af3c37cc36b802e358ad37f0a90c4d3a7e0fe0c8.jpg
https://julieroys.com/james-macdonald-email-asking-for-money-insults/
And Man ‘o God MacD is continuing his bullying and name-calling. He’s simply deepening his own grave.
https://julieroys.com/macdonald-tirade-hashtag-jrgossipsl/
I found the satirical cartoon included to be most direct and to the point.
I hope Roys demands an apology and a retraction from him. if not, she should sue him. She would have a pretty good case here.
I hope she has security. MacDonald is all but telling his followers to attack her. If I were her, I would be afraid for my safety.
More frothing-at-the-mouth hatred from authoritarian U.S. Evangelicals, revealing themselves to be the polar opposite of Jesus.
This all goes back to the doorstep of Mars Hill BOAA (Board Of Advisors and Accountability).
Michael Van Skaik (https://www.onethree12.com/about-us),
Matt Rogers (https://twitter.com/mattrogerstx; https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattrogerstx),
Larry Osborn (https://larryosborne.com/),
Jon Phelps (Full Sail Univ, https://www.vice.com/en/article/yw48dw/a-form-of-permanent-wage-theft-when-the-soaring-price-of-college-isnt-worth-it)
They gave MD a pass. Let him sail on through to greener pastures to exploit and destroy.
Seems the four of them have gone on to greener pastures, too. Seemingly in denial of their actions, pretending it never happened.
Can someone explain how this works? Does Driscoll pay Faithtalk 1320 for the airtime on the radio station? Trying to figure out who is making the money here.
Can someone explain how this works? Does Driscoll pay Faithtalk 1320 for the airtime on the radio station? Trying to figure out who is making the money here.
No, likely Driscoll is being paid by Faithtalk 1320 for the content. which he produces at his studio paid for by Trinity church .
No, likely Driscoll is being paid by Faithtalk 1320 for the content. which he produces at his studio paid for by Trinity church .
Well, of course they’ve asked the fox to investigate those mysterious disappearances from the henhouse. Who better than an insider to find out what’s going on? /s
Well, of course they’ve asked the fox to investigate those mysterious disappearances from the henhouse. Who better than an insider to find out what’s going on? /s
This is nuts that Dunham is platforming and literally helping spiritual abuse happen. Absolutely incredible! I hope they come to their senses quickly. I will help protest and get the word out.
Message sent to Lucas. As a survivor from a family of Mars Hills survivors, it would be nice if he was just “unaware…”
It’s quite fascinating (in the same way that watching a car wreck is fascinating) to see how Driscoll is going along very much the same path he followed at Mars Hill: same abusive behaviours, same exodus of abusees who then set about exposing his wicked behaviour, same attempts to obfuscate, lie, intimidate and bluster his way out of it, and so on.
We all know how it ended at Mars Hill. Given the way things are going at Trinity, perhaps the only question now is how long until the train hits the buffers?
It’s quite fascinating (in the same way that watching a car wreck is fascinating) to see how Driscoll is going along very much the same path he followed at Mars Hill: same abusive behaviours, same exodus of abusees who then set about exposing his wicked behaviour, same attempts to obfuscate, lie, intimidate and bluster his way out of it, and so on.
We all know how it ended at Mars Hill. Given the way things are going at Trinity, perhaps the only question now is how long until the train hits the buffers?
It’s quite fascinating (in the same way that watching a car wreck is fascinating) to see how Driscoll is going along very much the same path he followed at Mars Hill: same abusive behaviours, same exodus of abusees who then set about exposing his wicked behaviour, same attempts to obfuscate, lie, intimidate and bluster his way out of it, and so on.
We all know how it ended at Mars Hill. Given the way things are going at Trinity, perhaps the only question now is how long until the train hits the buffers?
It’s all served the purpose of making Driscoll a very wealthy man. Everything else is incidental…
The other question might be where Driscoll will go next if/when things collapse in Scottsdale. He will need to find a new flock to fleece and a new place to build an egotistical empire.
Maybe Florida, which seems to be a migration destination for the crooked and the narcissistic — perhaps there’s a vacant church property near Mar-a-Lago.
Is it really necessary to bring politics into it? Just focus on Driscoll, this was not an article about former president Trump.
If you’ve listened to Driscoll preach lately, he has latched on to right wing tropes popular with followers of Donald Trump. Plus I’m not going to forget that vehicle in the Trinity Church parking lot with a Trump/Pence sticker, but the “Pence” was raggedly cut off and removed. Oh hai, I found it.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e69231924399ac570522c34a58332595d03799525860897af822c4bd05daefc8.jpg
Thank you mirele. Driscoll the authoritarian demanding obedience from his followers is unquestionably linked to Trump the authoritarian demanding obedience from his followers. And the fact that both authoritarians attract conspiracy theorists refusing masks and vaccines cannot be overlooked.
Seriously, stop the Trump stuff. All that does is tell his Trinity
followers that Driscoll’s detractors are a bunch of radical left
progressives. You think they will listen to you?? They need people like
me (Trump voter) to tell them that Driscoll is a cult leader and they
need to leave.
It does no good to dissuade someone from one authoritarian and ignore their allegiance to another. If calling out authoritarians makes one “radical” I guess we’ll just have to live with that.
Speaking out against the authoritarianism of authoritarians Driscoll and Trump is indeed politically incorrect, as this comment thread predictably illustrates.
Let me guess…..are you a group thinker or an independent thinker?
Again, let me reiterate: Trump has zero to do with this thread until people forced him into it because of their political obsession. You can think whatever you want of him, but it’s silly and ridiculous to then cry about people enforcing political correctness on the thread when all they’re doing is pointing out the fact that Trump’s presidency is a perfect non sequitur as applied to this thread. Too many on the left are obsessed with Trump. He is in your brain like a bad virus and it is clouding your judgment. Let it go, get healing. Move on.
Trump’s presidency is not a non sequitur in this thread. the significant commonality between Trump and Driscoll is that they both have a following of people willing to support them no matter what lies/bad behaviour they engage in.
Driscoll has no obvious bad behavior. I would bet the vast majority of people at our church have no idea that some thing went on recently. I know people who are better connected than me and have more information than what you all have here.
Driscoll has no obvious bad behavior. I would bet the vast majority of people at our church have no idea that some thing went on recently. I know people who are better connected than me and have more information than what you all have here.
Trump is not a representative of God; Driscoll (by nature of being a Christian pastor) has installed himself as a representative of God. It’s ridiculous to mention Trump in this thread on many levels; for one, the Christian Church is separate from government/politics, as you would probably agree it should be. Two, people have different political affiliations and unfortunately, people rely on a secular and biased media to report on politics. Three, the Bible teaches that Satan is the prince of this world (Ephesians 2:2; John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4), so the media (under the power of Satan) cannot necessarily be trusted to convey the truth about politicians.
“Trump is not a representative of God”
He is according to a lot of evangelicals who support him. He’s “enacting god’s plan” and that is why he should be supported (and his bad behaviour should simply be ignored).
“the Christian Church is separate from government/politics, ”
It SHOULD be separate from government/politics, but it is not. Warren’s blog alone has quite a list of “religious leaders” who were all out stumping for Trump (many who earlier criticized him as being unfit during the 2016 primaries).
“so the media (under the power of Satan) cannot necessarily be trusted to convey the truth about politicians.”
I trust the media far more than I do these “christian leaders.” Of which Driscoll exemplifies some of the worst characteristics.
Seriously, stop the Trump stuff. All that does is tell his Trinity
followers that Driscoll’s detractors are a bunch of radical left
progressives. You think they will listen to you?? They need people like
me (Trump voter) to tell them that Driscoll is a cult leader and they
need to leave.
Driscoll’s critics are opposed to Driscoll’s well-documented patterns of authoritarianism, fraudulence, manipulation and abuse. You need to ask yourself why this makes you so uncomfortable.
My brother has a Trump/Pence sticker in his home office. (He’s more conservative than me, but he’s my brother.) Anyway, I was in the office with him last week and I pointed to the sticker and said, “You would not believe what I saw at Driscoll’s church” and then told him how the sticker had been cut to exclude Pence.
So what?
I’d also note that one of Driscoll’s attendees told me “Joe Biden s#cks d#ck” a few Sundays back when I was protesting. It was probably the same guy who asked me the week previously if I’d voted for Trump, and my response was, “Of course not!” His response: “There’s your problem.”
So yeah, the worlds of Driscoll and Trump worshipers do collide.
You’ve been out there? I haven’t seen you in a long time.
Wrong. When you began to mix (and conflate) Donald Trump/politics with the Driscoll issue, you began detracting from your original argument that solely called into question Mark Driscoll. Now that you have thrown politics into what was previously a purely a Christian faith issue with Driscoll, you are going to lose a lot of people. So a Donald Trump supporter made a crude comment to you? I can’t tell you how many times I have been horribly insulted and bullied by Democrats. But that has nothing to do with Driscoll.
Let me point you to Kristin Kobes DuMez’ book “Jesus and John Wayne,” where Mark Driscoll plays a significant supporting role. I would also note that Driscoll’s teachings regarding wives and sex (basically, any time, any way the husband wants it, consent be damned) dovetails nicely with Trump’s various sexual assaults.
I’d like to know what the horrible insults and bullying are from Democrats. Please do share. I’m dead curious because I’ve been a registered Dem since 1978. Now I know that modern day Republicans have fallen into various conspiracy theories and just stating the truth can be considered insults and bullying, I’ve found.
Exactly, Steve. A lot of people are worshipping their politics on both sides and I am sick of it. I understand they have little meaning in their lives and so they much latch onto something that makes them feel important, but this is absurd and it’s a lie. Donald Trump, whether he was the best president in history or the worst, has NOTHING to do with Mark Driscoll.
Exactly.
Not a cult leader. I go to the church and it’s just a regular church where we worship Jesus and hear good preaching about the Bible. I cannot attest to what goes on behind closed doors or if his leadership style or behavior is a problem, but there is absolutely no evidence of any kind of cult like behavior so stop listening to and promulgating all this gossip.
Not a cult leader. I go to the church and it’s just a regular church where we worship Jesus and hear good preaching about the Bible. I cannot attest to what goes on behind closed doors or if his leadership style or behavior is a problem, but there is absolutely no evidence of any kind of cult like behavior so stop listening to and promulgating all this gossip.
You mean aside from the:
levels of trust/access
paying private security to follow/dig up dirt on former members
ostracizing those who fail to follow the rules
dictating who members are “allowed” to associate with
but aside from those things, nothing cult-like at all.
I am saying that the vast majority of people who attend church there have no idea those things are happening. I do not see anything of concern in regular church life, but since I am a researcher and somehow came across this, I am probably one of the few who is learning about this. And only those who are close with pastoral staff might know. There is nothing cult like to the regular attender.
If they don’t see it it is because they are willfully blind to it.
Simply asking the question: “Why is that woman protesting outside the church” would have lead pretty much anyone to finding out about Driscoll.
Willfully blind to what? I have tried to say over and over again that the average attender does not see anything but good biblical preaching. Why can’t you hear that?
Because it is a lie.
As I said, all anyone had to do is ask “Why is that woman protesting outside the church” which would have easily led to finding out about Driscoll’s bad behaviour.
Or ask “what happened to that youth volunteer who’s brother was dating Driscoll’s daughter?”
Or why don’t Manuele’s or the Freeses (or any of a long list of people) attended this church anymore?
If they don’t know about Driscoll’s behaviour it is because they don’t want to know.
Um, Driscoll was demanding obedience long before anyone was talking about Trump.
Sorry, but you people are nuts. You live in an alternate reality and create your own narratives and falsely slander wide swaths of people. It’s kind of sick. And do some research about masks and vaccines, listen to some doctors that aren’t on CNN discuss their research. People without biases but only medical opinions who have legitimate reasons to discount masks and vaccines and lockdowns. And ask yourself why Google and Facebook and YouTube or censoring free speech. And are you OK with that? How can people have informed consent when nobody will tell them the whole truth about vaccines before getting the shot. Just mentioning that it’s emergency authorization use only, which is not confidence inducing.
Sorry, but you people are nuts. You live in an alternate reality and create your own narratives and falsely slander wide swaths of people. It’s kind of sick. And do some research about masks and vaccines, listen to some doctors that aren’t on CNN discuss their research. People without biases but only medical opinions who have legitimate reasons to discount masks and vaccines and lockdowns. And ask yourself why Google and Facebook and YouTube or censoring free speech. And are you OK with that? How can people have informed consent when nobody will tell them the whole truth about vaccines before getting the shot. Just mentioning that it’s emergency authorization use only, which is not confidence inducing.
Sorry, but you people are nuts. You live in an alternate reality and create your own narratives and falsely slander wide swaths of people. It’s kind of sick. And do some research about masks and vaccines, listen to some doctors that aren’t on CNN discuss their research. People without biases but only medical opinions who have legitimate reasons to discount masks and vaccines and lockdowns. And ask yourself why Google and Facebook and YouTube or censoring free speech. And are you OK with that? How can people have informed consent when nobody will tell them the whole truth about vaccines before getting the shot. Just mentioning that it’s emergency authorization use only, which is not confidence inducing.
Why does a bumper sticker on a single vehicle in a parking lot matter? Who cares? You shouldn’t. The problem with Driscoll has to do with things that existed long before Trump was anything more than a reality show start and land developer. It’s unconscionably false to pin this on Trump, Obama, Bush, Biden, anyone other than Mark Driscoll and his coterie of enablers. Your politics have clouded your judgment. Anyone who upvotes your post also has politics on their mind, not Jesus.
While I am well known for my never Trump views, I agree that lumping Driscoll and Trump together is a distraction. Most of the people who are now speaking out probably supported Trump. Perhaps they don’t see the similarities between Trump and Driscoll but it isn’t necessary to see them to also see what is right in front of them at The Trinity Church. I urge all to keep focused on the issues we all agree about.
Why don’t you address the guy who wishes Trump supporters to harm themselves? This is your comment section and it is full of vile lies, gossip, slander, and hate, including the comment after this one that says Driscoll draws narcissists. It is sick and twisted. And you are providing a platform for it. Are you still a Bible believing Christian?
Why don’t you address the guy who wishes Trump supporters to harm themselves? This is your comment section and it is full of vile lies, gossip, slander, and hate, including the comment after this one that says Driscoll draws narcissists. It is sick and twisted. And you are providing a platform for it. Are you still a Bible believing Christian?
Why don’t you address the guy who wishes Trump supporters to harm themselves? This is your comment section and it is full of vile lies, gossip, slander, and hate, including the comment after this one that says Driscoll draws narcissists. It is sick and twisted. And you are providing a platform for it. Are you still a Bible believing Christian?
Why don’t you address the guy who wishes Trump supporters would harm themselves? This is your comment section and it is full of vile lies, gossip, slander, and hate, including the comment after this one that says Driscoll draws narcissists. It is sick and twisted. And you are providing a platform for it. Are you still a Bible believing Christian?
Because your demands that Warren address these comments is nothing more than an obvious attempt to deflect the conversation away from Driscoll.
I just think Christians who point the finger at other Christians should be following a higher standard. This is his blog. He comments here and has nothing to say about some evil things said here.
Funny how you expect a “higher standard” from people who post here than you do from Driscoll.
Happy Fathers ‘s Day.
I think “Let There Be Truth” has been clear that he/she is just your run-of-the-mill church attendee and is just now finding out about Driscoll.
I disagree. It is clear from the posts that “Let There Be Truth” came here to support Driscoll and tried to misinform/misdirect the discussion about him. Using the standard tricks of making false/misleading/deliberately vague statements then not answering questions about sources or specifics (or trying to deflect from answering by giving more vague/misleading statements).
Why even have a comment section to your articles? It breeds wickedness. John wishes me dead, first generally and now specifically.
“I’m sorry your 2nd favorite pathetic narcissist isn’t president anymore. May you soon begin enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven.”
Why even have a comment section to your articles? It breeds wickedness. John wishes me dead, first generally and now specifically.
“I’m sorry your 2nd favorite pathetic narcissist isn’t president anymore. May you soon begin enjoying the eternal bliss of heaven.”
You want people to believe that you are listening to Driscoll sermons? You people are just making things up. We are doing the book of Romans. Yes, a lot of us supported Trump. So what?
You want people to believe that you are listening to Driscoll sermons? You are making things up. We are doing the book of Romans. Yes, a lot of us supported Trump. So what?
And what is the evidence that people that are moving to Florida are crooked and narcissistic? Or is this just where people go to flail about and make broad brush wild accusations?
And what is the evidence that people that are moving to Florida are crooked and narcissistic? Or is this just where people go to flail about and make broad brush wild accusations?
Wow, that comment went right over your head didn’t it.
Why? I’m just responding to what they said. Was it a reference to Trump, yes. But the statement was ‘(Driscoll) will need a new flock… destination for “the crooked and the narcissistic”’. The connection between Driscoll and a new empire, and Trump didn’t make any sense. People should be careful with their words and say what they mean.
Why? I’m just responding to what they said. Was it a reference to Trump, yes. But the statement was ‘(Driscoll) will need a new flock… destination for “the crooked and the narcissistic”’. The connection between Driscoll and a new empire, and Trump didn’t make any sense. People should be careful with their words and say what they mean.
Because your comment shows you clearly missed the sarcasm of the statement. Asking for evidence as though the humour was intended as a factual claim.
The other question might be where Driscoll will go next if/when things collapse in Scottsdale. He will need to find a new flock to fleece and a new place to build an egotistical empire.
Maybe Florida, which seems to be a migration destination for the crooked and the narcissistic — perhaps there’s a vacant church property near Mar-a-Lago.
I believe if things go very wrong in Scottsdale (similar to what happened in Seattle/Mars Hill) that Driscoll will not have the psychological strength to pursue a third church plant in another city. I submit this assumption because it appears (from Trinity Church member reports) that Driscoll is abnormally focused on disloyalty within Trinity Church. The most obvious origin of Driscoll’s fear of staff disloyalty would be the collapse of Mars Hill and the united effort of the Mars Hills elders to get Driscoll to relinquish control and submit to a restoration plan. Thus, Driscoll is going to want to prevent any type of staff uprising and catastrophic implosion from happening again.
It amazes me that he still has substantial financial backing. But the the ministry draws narcissists, and the apathetic love them because they’re self assured and always seem to have a plan..
Indeed: as I’ve commented before, what’s much more surprising than Driscoll’s predatory behaviour is the seemingly endless supply of people only too happy to pay him to abuse them and sing his praises while he does it.
People who are not generally looking for Jesus often look for a guru to solve their problems and upon whom they can offload their responsibilities to the Lord. When such self interest is involved it’s silly for us to expect rational or spiritual thinking. At this point, there is no excuse for anyone to attend a church with Driscoll at the helm or have anything to do with a church that would allow him through their doors even for a visit. There is way too much information available. Frankly, there was no excuse for any who attended his new endeavor in AZ in the first place. They did so with willful blindness.
I have no hope of Mark ever repenting, it is not in the narcissists nature, any of them. But I do have hope that a few of those who get abused will repent of doing what you stated. They either deal honestly with their own sin or they will just hop into a different church with a different abuser and repeat the cycle. Some walk away from the faith and then likely will just find another non-Christian guru to follow and that solves nothing either.
I appreciate your perspective here. Driscoll alone is responsible for his own repentance (or obvious lack thereof), as are his devout followers. At least efforts are being made to provide space for survivors to speak out, such as confidential correspondence with Dr. Throckmorton and possibly others. And I am thankful for mirele and other protestors who’ve put themselves at risk in the hopes of waking up Driscoll’s manipulated congregants.
We who attend there are followers of Jesus. We go there to worship and to hear good Bible teaching. We are not “followers of Driscoll” and we are not manipulated. And I am sure that mirele was not in danger, But I do think taking care of her family is a much better use of her time.
We who attend there are followers of Jesus. We go there to worship and to hear good Bible teaching. We are not “followers of Driscoll” and we are not manipulated. And I am sure that mirele was not in danger, But I do think taking care of her family is a much better use of her time.
You slander those who you know nothing about, including me.
We know about you.
You are an apologist for Driscoll. You come to this site to “refute” evidence about Driscoll with innuendo and misleading statements. However, when asked for details or evidence you ignore the requests and try to deflect with irrelevant post or more misleading claims.
You are hardly the 1st person to come to this site using these childish tactics.
Again, I do not know him personally, I have said it would be good to know both sides of the story, and mainly I have refuted the accusation against the church of being a cult. I have thanked people here who have kept their accusations to Driscoll specifically. Maybe he does have a pride issue, an anger issue, is controlling and abusive. But even if those things happen within his circle, I have defended the people as there is nothing I have ever seen from my vantage point that is off base or cause for concern and the people generally are Jesus loving, friendly, serving folks who desire to hear the truth preached and Mark does that. They are not reading blogs about this kind of stuff. They are busy raising their families. Our young neighbor is involved with the men’s group and is trying to stay sober. They are not cult followers.
“mainly I have refuted the accusation against the church of being a cult.”
No, you started out defending Driscoll’s bad hehaviour. Posting a bunch of misleading nonsense in a foolish attempt to deflect the discussion away from Driscoll. You may think because you keep your posting history private others can’t reference what you’ve posted, but we can.
I wish you all would stop it. As an attendee, you are accusing me of not looking to Jesus but looking for a guru. That is a lie and offensive slander. Everybody I know who goes there loves Jesus and appreciates how He is honored and worshiped and whether you like it or not Driscoll is a very good Bible teacher. As I keep saying, I can’t answer what goes on behind closed doors, but it is a great church as far as our experience as attenders goes. How many people go researching their pastor? All they here or is hey, there’s a great Church over there and you should go and they go and they like it because he obeyed God and not man and opened the church and people are hungry for the truth and he is preaching it.
I wish you all would stop it. As an attendee, you are accusing me of not looking to Jesus but looking for a guru. That is a lie and offensive slander. Everybody I know who goes there loves Jesus and appreciates how He is honored and worshiped and whether you like it or not Driscoll is a very good Bible teacher. As I keep saying, I can’t answer what goes on behind closed doors, but it is a great church as far as our experience as attenders goes. How many people go researching their pastor? All they here or is hey, there’s a great Church over there and you should go and they go and they like it because he obeyed God and not man and opened the church and people are hungry for the truth and he is preaching it.
You insinuate you are a “follower of Jesus” (I note you don’t explicitly say that about yourself), and yet you continue to attend a church run by a greedy, bullying, narcissist whose behaviours are anything but christ-like. And further you make excuses for said behaviour.
You said “Driscoll is a very good Bible teacher.” But I notice you didn’t say he was a good christian. Now, I’m not saying he has to be “perfect.” However, shouldn’t a “good teacher” be someone who leads by example, not simply someone who says pretty words at a pulpit?
given the examples of Driscoll’s behaviour that Warren (and others) have exposed, I doubt very much that Driscoll qualifies as a “good christian” let alone a good christian teacher.
I am a follower of Jesus. My point has continually been that for the average attender, all is good. People do not know about any of this. He IS a gifted preacher, not with pretty words but words of truth, which is why I guess his churches grow. I do not believe everything I read, and don’t really care for Throckmorton even before this, as people go after every big name preacher. I was willing to give him grace that he dealt with his past sins as that is what our faith is Jesus us all about. But I have concerns as I read more and different sources. I do not know Driscoll personally. Obviously if all this is true, he has some big problems and needs to repent and change. And yes, certainly he should lead by example.
And how many of these “average attenders” have you informed of your “concerns” about Driscoll?
Your history posting here tells quite a different story about your motivations for posting online about Driscoll.
Such as?
Claiming that Driscoll was “repentant of his past mistakes.” When it is obvious he is not. When questioned about this “repentence” you don’t respond.
Claiming “Driscoll is accountable” to someone in the chuch heirarchy. However, again no response when asked to name them or explain why they do not show up on the org. charts. And tried to deflect the discussion away from these questions by talking about Trump.
These are just a couple of the many,many attempts you made to give false or misleading statements then to deflect the conversation away from Driscoll’s bad behaviour (and presumably thinking you fooled people into not noticing you didn’t actually respond to the questions that were asked.)
For example my question:
how many of these “average attenders” have you informed of your “concerns” about Driscoll?
I agree with you in regard to being willing to give Driscoll grace for his past sins, including mistakes he made at Mars Hill. I was very willing to do that. But Trinity Church attendees are raising similar concerns and complaints about Driscoll as the previous Mars Hill Church members had raised. My understanding is that Driscoll was urged by Mars Hill to submit to elders and enter into a restoration plan, but Driscoll didn’t trust them, and so he left and moved to Arizona. The obvious psychological fallout for anyone in this situation is the fear that this church collapse could happen again. However, a pastor who has a close walk with the Lord, who has repented of sin, and who has basic mental health does not need to be paranoid about the Mars Hill disaster repeating itself in Arizona. Based on the information I have been able to review (which may not be complete), I don’t think Mark Driscoll has the spiritual or psychological stability to continue in ministry at this point in time.
I don’t think everyone who attended Driscoll’s new church in AZ did so with willful blindness. They may not have had full understanding of what happened at Mars Hill, or maybe they didn’t believe the reports of former Mars Hill parishioners, or maybe they DID believe the reports but wanted to give Driscoll a second chance. The point is there are now TWO Driscoll church plants with similar, toxic results, so I think it is fair to say that anyone who would sign on to a third Driscoll church plant may be subject to your charge of “no excuse/willful blindness,” assuming such individuals are internet savvy.
Really? It’s really unbelievable what is being said here. I attend the church. I cannot tell you about what happens behind closed doors, but it is a great church with great people with great worship and great Bible teaching. We appreciate his teaching but do not sing his praises, our praises go to Jesus.
“I cannot tell you about what happens behind closed doors.”
Sorry friend, but once that which has happened behind closed doors becomes increasingly public, as is happening with the Trinity Church right now, you can no longer continue to hide behind that excuse.
So you are justified to call thousands of people who have no idea and attend church there manipulated narcissistic cult members? I admit as I learn more I have to address things because this crossed my path but I would guess the vast majority have no idea so stop slandering a whole congregation.
I haven’t seen anyone here slandering a whole congregation. Or indeed saying anything about a whole congregation.
There has been comment after comment about how we are a cult on Throckmorton’s articles. Manipulated, narcissists, devout cult followers, applaud his abusive behavior, the list has gone on and on for months. You said in this thread, “seemingly endless supply of people only too happy to pay him to abuse them and sing his praises while he does it.” Is that not a generalization about the congregation? Do you really believe that is happening?
All most people know is good worship, great Bible preaching focused on the Word and children’s ministry. Lots of young men and women coming to Wednesday ministry time. I will be praying if things are that bad behind the scenes that God helps them be dealt with, but the congregation most certainly has been maligned and slandered repeatedly here. And we will just ignore John who wishes people like me were dead.
Personally I will not make generalisations. I’ll just point out a tree is known by its fruit… and the emerging evidence suggests the fruit is pretty rotten.
I think people who had knowledge of Mars Hill still wanted to give Driscoll the benefit of the doubt with his new church plant in Arizona. I previously (mistakenly?) believed that maybe Driscoll had taken away crucial lessons from Mars Hill and realized he needed to be less domineering, egotistical, and be more accountable, etc. However, it seems Driscoll was somewhat “scarred” from his experience at Mars Hill and consequently he is now paranoid and doubling down on people he feels could potentially “dethrone” or betray/oust him. Rather than putting his full faith in Jesus to be his defender and his guide, he reacts like a worldly person who doesn’t know Jesus or the Holy Spirit at all.
Sadly, too many people are prepared to give died-in-the-wool baddies the benefit of the doubt even when there is ample evidence that no change will be forthcoming.
It’s because his 3 biggest backers from Mars Hill are still financially supporting his spiritual abuse. They are now guilty themselves of spiritual abuse. They are:
Jon and Esther Phelps
Bill and Becky Smead
Dan Duffus
interesting. Thanks
“duffus”…. it’s really duffus? and it’s pronounced… doofis?
This is a key point. If these people stopped supporting Driscoll, he would have to change or find another source of funds. The reason he has what appears to be unlimited resources is due to these supporters. It’s a free country and you can do whatever you want with your money but these people are enabling what many people in Seattle and now Phoenix say turned them against church. Beyond the obvious mind control elements we see, the effects on the souls of people and their children is at issue here. I have lost count of the people in Seattle who tell me their children want nothing to do with Jesus because of their Mars Hill experience.
It’s Scottsdale. And you are just going to continue to let people completely smear a whole congregation as manipulated narcissistic devout cult followers?
I go to the church and I find your statement disgusting and offensive.
I go to the church and I find your statement offensive.
Be offended all you want, but when you hit the “I can’t tell you what goes on behind closed doors” button, you stop being a Christian church and become a cult. Driscoll sells “christianity” to enrich himself. He’s a narcissist. He’s incapable of sinserity…
It’s all served the purpose of making Driscoll a very wealthy man. Everything else is incidental…
those boxes of ‘Just for Men’ ain’t cheap
those boxes of ‘Just for Men’ ain’t cheap
I was wondering if anyone else noticed that.
What is different this time is that he has a gun case with assault rifles in his office. I never heard that in Seattle. It makes me concerned along with his growing paranoia that this may finish so badly that it makes Mars Hill look like a hiccup in comparison.
Let’s hope your concerns are unfounded.
We can hope.
We can hope.
My brother (who has a concealed carry license) wasn’t so much concerned about the gun safe with the assault rifles. He was VERY concerned about the rules of engagement at Trinity Church. According to Chad Freese, Driscoll was upset when one of his personal bodyguard (“detail”) didn’t pull his gun on a guy who jumped on the stage. My brother said, “If you pull a gun, you’d better be prepared to shoot it.” In between that and the report that Driscoll’s detail is allegedly carrying collapsible carbines, he asked me not to protest The Trinity Church for the time being. I’m the alternate caretaker for our mother, he’s been feeling a bit poorly lately and it’s just not worth the risk. I agree with him. As much as TTC needs a protest, I have to think about my family.
Just to reiterate, Driscoll’s church is unsafe, not because of the gun safe, but because there are no real rules of engagement and someone is going to get hurt because of that. And this is in Arizona, where people can legally open carry and, with a license, conceal carry.
Which reminds me, my birthday is coming up, maybe I can talk my brother into going down to the shooting range for some practice.
Which reminds me, my birthday is coming up, maybe I can talk my brother into going down to the shooting range for some practice.
Not protesting outside a crazy pastor’s church, especially if said pastor thinks he needs a “security detail,” seems like a smart move. Best of luck to you, and I hope your brother feels better soon.
Lord have mercy…
My brother (who has a concealed carry license) wasn’t so much concerned about the gun safe with the assault rifles. He was VERY concerned about the rules of engagement at Trinity Church. According to Chad Freese, Driscoll was upset when one of his personal bodyguard (“detail”) didn’t pull his gun on a guy who jumped on the stage. My brother said, “If you pull a gun, you’d better be prepared to shoot it.” In between that and the report that Driscoll’s detail is allegedly carrying collapsible carbines, he asked me not to protest The Trinity Church for the time being. I’m the alternate caretaker for our mother, he’s been feeling a bit poorly lately and it’s just not worth the risk. I agree with him. As much as TTC needs a protest, I have to think about my family.
Just to reiterate, Driscoll’s church is unsafe, not because of the gun safe, but because there are no real rules of engagement and someone is going to get hurt because of that. And this is in Arizona, where people can legally open carry and, with a license, conceal carry.
Ignorance is not bliss. I hope they never get used but the fact that Mark feels that he needs these to protect himself on his own church grounds is very troubling. I have never heard of anyone doing this before, so hence the concern.
In your request to Lucas did you ask him how he came to chose the Dunham Agency to work with?
In your request to Lucas did you ask him how he came to chose the Dunham Agency to work with?
I didn’t. I guess I believe I know.
Salem and Dunham work closely together. Because Dunham is working with Driscoll, Salem felt it was “ok” to put him on the radio.