This National Public Radio broadcast provides a look at the controversies surrounding how to treat gender identity concerns in childhood. Essentially dividing the field into two camps, the program follows the treatment choices of two families. One approach, represented by Kenneth Zucker, advocates making “the child comfortable with the sex he or she was born with.” The reporter elaborates further:
So, to treat Bradley, Zucker explained to Carol that she and her husband would have to radically change their parenting. Bradley would no longer be allowed to spend time with girls. He would no longer be allowed to play with girlish toys or pretend that he was a female character. Zucker said that all of these activities were dangerous to a kid with gender identity disorder. He explained that unless Carol and her husband helped the child to change his behavior, as Bradley grew older, he likely would be rejected by both peer groups. Boys would find his feminine interests unappealing. Girls would want more boyish boys. Bradley would be an outcast.
Zucker’s approach is contrasted with Oakland, CA therapist, Diane Ehrensaft’s approach. She advocates:
She describes children like Bradley and Jonah as transgender. And, unlike Zucker, she does not think parents should try to modify their child’s behavior. In fact, when Pam and Joel came to see her, she discouraged them from putting Jonah into any kind of therapy at all. Pam says because Ehrensaft does not see transgenderism itself as a dysfunction, the therapist didn’t think Pam and Joel should try to cure Jonah.
Ehrensaft did eventually encourage Joel and Pam to allow Jonah to live as a little girl. By the time he was 5, Jonah had made it very clear to his parents that he wanted to wear girl clothes full time — that he wanted to be known as a girl. He wanted them to call him their daughter. And though Ehrensaft does not always encourage children who express gender flexibility to “transition” to living as a member of the opposite sex, in the case of Jonah, she thought it was appropriate.
The whole program is intriguing, controversial and worth a review.
UPDATE – The second part of this story is out today here and a school district in Southeastern PA is confronting this issue.
And, you know, still waiting for anyone’s thoughts on why childhood GID should be the only DSM diagnosis exempt from the DSM’s rejection of social noncomformity as a criteria for mental disorder.
No, there is nothing inherently bad about not being reproductive, but if you, as a scientist, look at the population and see that there is a number of individuals who, due to a presumed inborn condition, choose to resort to body modifications in order to match brain feelings, it makes you think that, biologically, this is not the norm, that it is not a simple variation in the population, like eye colour or height. It’s more profound and it affects many basic dimensions, psychological and physical. Now, of course, every gender population is more or less typical and there is a distribution of that in the entire population. But on the sides that becomes really problematic, especially for the people involved. They have to do all sorts of things that don’t come naturally just to be able to lead a balanced life.
And the obvious question is: so what? How do you define what comes “naturally”? And if what’s natural or unnatural in itself has no bearing on what our actions in reagrds to it “should” be, then what they heck is your point? I’m going to drive my highly non-natural car to my job wherein we dispense non-naturally occuring medications to enable people with problems much worse than GID to lead a balanced life. A whole bunch of people had to mess with nature in unnatural ways to create my car.
I’m still waiting to see documented evidence that there is no significant difference between the kids who underwent Zucker’s therapy and the kids who evolved naturally in one direction or another.
Or, crazy thought, maybe Zucker should be expected to produce documented evidence that there is a significant difference between kids who underwent his therapy and those who didn’t, other than the difference of Bradley being miserable and withdrawn and Jona being social and happy.
Boo,
When we were debating that biological argument, I used the term ‘deviation’ in a purely technical and descriptive manner; there was no moral or normative intent behind it.
No, there is nothing inherently bad about not being reproductive, but if you, as a scientist, look at the population and see that there is a number of individuals who, due to a presumed inborn condition, choose to resort to body modifications in order to match brain feelings, it makes you think that, biologically, this is not the norm, that it is not a simple variation in the population, like eye colour or height. It’s more profound and it affects many basic dimensions, psychological and physical. Now, of course, every gender population is more or less typical and there is a distribution of that in the entire population. But on the sides that becomes really problematic, especially for the people involved. They have to do all sorts of things that don’t come naturally just to be able to lead a balanced life.
I’m still waiting to see documented evidence that there is no significant difference between the kids who underwent Zucker’s therapy and the kids who evolved naturally in one direction or another. If therapy really makes no difference besides making children go through unnecessary hardship, even harm, then there is no good reason for parents to consider that. But I have some doubts that this is the case. The fact that there are many individuals, like you, who voice their concerns, is a proof that it surely does not work for all. I’d also like to hear from people who did Zucker’s therapy and grew out of GID because of that. Also people who did not do therapy and grew out of it naturally. Let’s have the entire picture laid out and then we can discuss from all points of view.
Boo
I’m not saying what will technically work or not work other than to suggest that rapid improvement is to be expected. But I mean from a legal standpoint it’s up to the parents.
They said the same thing about IS genital surgeries. And that just worked out great. Okay, so you’re Brave New World guy and I’m skeptic gal, and there we are.
Boo
These kids brains aren’t yours to flip whatever switches you think need flipping. Or their parents, for that matter.
It’s not up to me but when a safe therapy comes along it’s certainly up to the parents.
I read your posts and you guys have too much self-esteem, hehe. If I was Dysphoric it would take me about 3 seconds to decide I wanted the quick-fix shot. My life is loaded to the hilt with problems. I’d check that one off my list.
That’s the whole point. It’s not your life. These kids brains aren’t yours to flip whatever switches you think need flipping. Or their parents, for that matter. Who gets to decide that a miserable boy is a better outcome than a happy girl?
Zoe Brain
Boo
I read your posts and you guys have too much self-esteem, hehe. If I was Dysphoric it would take me about 3 seconds to decide I wanted the quick-fix shot. My life is loaded to the hilt with problems. I’d check that one off my list.
You were the one who picked up on a marginal remark I made about biology and we ended up discussing stuff you now say it’s off-topic. It’s ok with me. Just don’t mistake my exchange of information with Drowssap for replies to your messages.
Well, let’s see. In response to something I said, you said this:
In human terms, of course not. But if you ask a couple of biologists they will admit that in any given population this is a deviation. In natural terms, they would consider it a bad outcome. In our society we have a different way of dealing with differences, though. In this respect, I don’t see why someone should be forced to fit in if all interventions have failed to correct GID, as long as there is no definitive answer to what causes this.
Perhaps I pounced too much on the second and third sentences, but then you said this in response to me:
I beg to differ on that. What biological purpose can serve an individual to have a complete mismatch between gender and body? A biologist knows that the normal population includes individuals who are able, after they develop, to become reproductive. How can a transsexual be reproductive if they have one sex, but want to change it according to feelings?
So put em together and it sounded to me like you were saying that biology is teleological. And I was saying there’s nothing necessarily “bad” about not being reproductive, and that using what “science says” to enforce social norms has along and very ugly history.
Incidentally, and I’m sure this is just another one of those amazing coincidences that has nothing to do with anything, but the clinic Zucker works at just happens to have been the hub of Canada’s pre WWII eugenics program. Mainly, they sterilized foreigners. But I’m sure that can’t relate in any way whatsoever to any work they do now.
Drowssap– the change would be greater in magnitude than the change at Puberty, or the one at Pregnancy, both of which cause brain morphology to alter significantly.
After each of those, the person going through them is never the same again.
It’s a common misconception to believe that men and women think alike. Take it from me, they don’t. This can be objectively measured using MRI scans – they use different parts of the brain to do the same job, and do it in different ways. Individuals vary, but the differentiation is quite marked.
We already know how to change brain gender in some cases, about 20% in fact. Give the mother of a 46xy foetus the drug DES during the first trimester of pregnancy, and 20% of the time the child will be transsexual, with a brain that will later develop as female.
In order to reliably ensure brain and body align, intervention in the first 12 weeks of gestation would be needed. We are so far away from understanding how the developing brain is pre-natally pre-programmed to incline to later M or F pattern development that it will be a long time before we can do this.
Heroic Post-natal intervention can sometimes work to a degree, and an initial mild inclination to cross-gender neural development can at least partially self-correct at puberty when the brain re-wires from the hormone flood.
This can even happen late in life. Nearly 1/3 of TS women with an asexual to lesbian past history change to become straight, 6 months +/- 1 after removal of gonads. This has been ascribed to purely psychological causes, but the 6 month time delay till certain neurotransmitter balances change may not be wholly coincidental. It can be scary to have something as fundamental as one’s sexual orientation change underneath you.
It happened to me, 7 months after the male gonads ceased trading, as it were, though they weren’t removed till later. It is the one part of transition I had difficulty with, and the only part that was not welcome. But you just have to accept it. Would I go back if I could? Well, if my partner of 27 years was lesbian too, yes, immediately. She’s not though, so there’s no point. It might even be painful to me, and being straight is still more socially acceptable. Then there’s religious considerations….
Both of you mentioned that if scientists learned how to cure your dysphoria it would be like you died and another person took your place.
They have learned how to cure my dysphoria. I transitioned. Dysphoria gone.
I completely disagree. Most dysphoria goes away during the teen years. These dysphoric teens don’t fall asleep and wake up different people. They were the same people before and after, except they weren’t dysphoric. Scientists will eventually learn how to copy this natural process. There is no reason to be afraid of what nature already does for most people.
That assumes there is no difference to begin with between the kids who will grow up to be gay vs. the kids who will grow up to be trans. The reality is, again, we simply don’t know. Some of these kids also grow up to be str8 and cisgendered, but you notice Zucker doesn’t say his treatment can change their sexual orientation.
I’ve stretched my lunch break farther than I should, so I’ll have to respond to Evan later.
Zoe Brain
Boo
Both of you mentioned that if scientists learned how to cure your dysphoria it would be like you died and another person took your place.
I completely disagree. Most dysphoria goes away during the teen years. These dysphoric teens don’t fall asleep and wake up different people. They were the same people before and after, except they weren’t dysphoric. Scientists will eventually learn how to copy this natural process. There is no reason to be afraid of what nature already does for most people.
Seriously, I appreciate the way you advance your positions, Boo. I don’t come away agreeing often, but you really do give me lots to think about.
Thank you. And I really appreciated the way you came out against Gerald “Africa was a savage jungle” Schoenewolf.
My main worry is the possibility of confusing religion and science. If you have a religious objection to homosexuality and/or transgenderism, I can respect that even if I disagree. I just worry about people going down the Paul McHugh route and trying to force religious opinions onto the science.
One of the most weighted questions in the study McHugh used to shut down the Johns Hopkins GIC was whether the client was in a relationship with a “gender appropriate partner” post-transition. This was in 1979. Six years after homosexuality was delisted as a mental disorder. If McHugh has a religious objection to homosexuality, that’s his right, but from a purely scientific perspective, there is no such thing as a “gender appropriate partner.”
Boo,
If you want to see my position on the subject just read my first post in this topic. When I wrote it, there was no other message I could see, so I thought I could help the topic by giving it a jumpstart. That was the context I entered this discussion, which is why I made it clear where I came from.
There is no point in justifying each and every example I used to reply to your objections. Just follow back the arguments and see they have a connecting logic. You were the one who picked up on a marginal remark I made about biology and we ended up discussing stuff you now say it’s off-topic. It’s ok with me. Just don’t mistake my exchange of information with Drowssap for replies to your messages. Those were off-topic, OK, though not outside the interest of this blog.
Does that also mean that we cannot know in advance if therapy can work in a number of cases?
What Boo said.
As an aside, I would have taken a “normalisation” shot, if such existed. I gave the effort of trying to be male all I could. But being male or being female is not something you can bring into being by willpower and persistence.
Yes, it would have meant personal extinction, a replacement of me with a male version thereof. I didn’t value my personality as highly as I did being a “credit to the family” etc.
Of course, if there would have been a shot that would have given me a normal female body, the ability to bear children, I would have moved heaven and earth to get that.
I never thought I’d see you come out so strongly against sex reassignment surgery.
Oh no no no no no no no, my dear Drowssap. In these cases of letting the kids develop as they should, SRS is done as an adult (or occasionally a few years earlier), if and when they want it. Forcing this kind of surgery on children is another matter entirely, and quite horrific.
Look, the reality is that parents have a right to raise their children as they see fit.
Within certain bounds, yes. Said bounds usually do not involve torturing them. Unless they’re not gender-normative, of course, cause then it’s for their own good (read: our own comfort).
When you were a kid growing up and you knew that you were different wouldn’t you have gladly taken a shot that kicked on your male circuit and ended your dysphoria?
I honestly don’t know, but if I had I wouldn’t be me any more, which is kinda creepy.
You have a way with self-victimising and making other people’s arguments look like threatening arrows directed against you, when they really are not.
Of course they’re not directed against me. I got through all that crap already. They’re directed against children.
There are no ’shoulds’ and ‘musts’ in my replies as to the way adult transgender people should be treated in society.
Really, that was your argument? Then what the heck was the point of bringing all that in? And all the stuff about transsexual bears? The discussion is about how these kids “should” be treated. I don’t normally expect that people will post line after line of stuff that has no bearing at all on the conversation, though, so maybe you can imagine how I could get confused on that. So, your real point all along is that biological anomalies in themselves are not reason to try and force any particular outcome on these kids, and you agree with me?
Are all adult transsexuals feminine? Is it necessary for one to be feminine in order to be that? How would someone be jugded to be genuine or not? Could someone be feminine and not have gender identity problems?
Most of the ones I’ve met are, which can be kinda weird at first when you’ve got this big hulking guy-looking type person who comes off extremely feminine. But if it’s causing you to miss the point (and seems like it is), replace “feminine” with “transsexual” in that sentence. Now you’ve got a man with a different hole able to have sex in a way he considers more pleasurable. If the hole and the simultaneous orgasm thing was all he’s after, there’s no reason for hormonal and social transition, is there?
That sentence was not about children. The context was different and you know that.
I’ve only ever heard of one person who spontaneously developed transsexualism in adulthood, and that’s a very odd case. One Willow Arune claimed that transsexuality “popped out” after getting raped in a Thailand prison (no, I’m not making that up). Incidentally a big supporter of Bailey, Blanchard, and Zucker. Started a support group for self proclaimed “autogynephiles” on yahoo that got shut down when she began cyberstalking Andrea James. Also claimed she had no history of autogynephilia, but labelled herself one anyway. Point being pretty much all transsexuals have their feelings from an extremely early age, and if you’re not talking about children or transsexuals, then forgive me for not realizing you were that far off topic.
We could talk about Swaab’s and other people’s research on brain areas we don’t know what precise function they have, but we do have sexually dimorphic correlations… If we associate them with behaviours or gender identity, wouldn’t that be speculation?
No, it’s data which is not yet conclusive. Your sentence was pure speculation. I’m equally as critical of the “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” people, because the bottom line is we just don’t know for sure yet wither way.
I chatted to a guy who had Dysphoria as a child. He told me that he dreamed about being a girl every day. When he hit puberty it completely went away and it was the biggest relief of his life.
And if Jona’s gender conflict ends up going away, she’ll just go back to being a he. No harm done.
You might be a special case because you have a known genetic disorder.
But if a child has an otherwise healthy, non-intersex body it’s a safe bet that the glitch lies in the brain, not the genitals. Something has happened to these kids and right now scientists don’t know what it is.
If she is found to have a genetic disorder tomorrow, her brain is the same as it is today. If she is found not to have a genetic disorder tomorrow, her brain is still the same as it is today.
Regardless of the cause little kids born today with dysphoria will have 1000 fold better options in just a few decades. IMHO it’s better to raise them as their biological gender, hope for the best and see what science comes up with.
Which child is actually doing better in the NPR story?
Zoe Brain
As regards the link between TS and Asperger’s etc – there’s even a Yahoo group for it, the combination of PDD and TS is so common.
I knew it! I don’t know why I’ve never read any popular press accounts of a connection because TS and Autism. I’ve seen it mentioned in various chat rooms as if it were common knowledge.
BTW, if you want to read the latest on Autism
Google: Some Cases Of Autism May Be Traced To The Immune System Of Mothers During Pregnancy
(This is how I avoid the spam filter)
Autism is looking more and more like an infectious disease. Lots of stories like this have come out over the last year.
Drowssap – a minor correction. I don’t have a “known genetic disorder”, Currently, my symptoms closely mimic those of someone with 46xx chromosomes and Adrenal Hyperplasia. I’ve been prescribed hormonal therapy on that basis, and it appears effective (for which I am VERY grateful). Yet my Karyotype is 46xy, and the various forms of AH have a totally different effect on genetic males (unless they’re IS in other ways).
The anomalous pattern of hormone levels and somatic oddities doesn’t quite correspond to anything known in the literature, though a ridiculously improbable combination of known genetic conditions would fit. It’s far more likely to be something not in the literature yet.
3 years after the first symptoms appeared, my condition is still Idiopathic. Lots of things still are in medicine.
Drowssap – I’ve been in regular contact with literally hundreds of people diagnosed with GID now. I’ve been unable to find any significant difference in their own narratives from my own, from a psychological viewpoint. There’s more variation within the group than between that group and I.
Whether I am more accurately described as a TS woman with severe endocrinal anomalies, or an IS woman with a TS history is a matter of debate and opinion.
The point is, that my condition has biological causation, it’s identical in appearance to another condition of unknown etiology, and that is evidence that that has biological causation too. I believe the case for TS to be considered Neurological IS to be very strong. As the brain is somewhat plastic, it is possible in a few cases for gender identity to reverse, to some extent. It’s inevitable, in fact. It’s also inevitable that many cases will not change, no matter how traumatised by coercive therapy.
Bottom line – TS is a subset of IS. It is as treatable as any other undesirable congenital neurological condition. A good historical example is left-handedness, which in living memory was also treated with coercive therapy with equally limited and partial success.
As regards the link between TS and Asperger’s etc – there’s even a Yahoo group for it, the combination of PDD and TS is so common. The most accepted hypothesis within that group for this is SUBT – screwed up brain theory, meaning if one part is screwed up by a cause in the womb, it increases the odds of other bits being affected too.
Zoe Brain
You might be a special case because you have a known genetic disorder.
But if a child has an otherwise healthy, non-intersex body it’s a safe bet that the glitch lies in the brain, not the genitals. Something has happened to these kids and right now scientists don’t know what it is.
I chatted to a guy who had Dysphoria as a child. He told me that he dreamed about being a girl every day. When he hit puberty it completely went away and it was the biggest relief of his life. He said that Dysphoria was a living hell. If you were wondering, yes he is gay.
Regardless of the cause little kids born today with dysphoria will have 1000 fold better options in just a few decades. IMHO it’s better to raise them as their biological gender, hope for the best and see what science comes up with.
Side Note
I’ve read anecdotally that gender dysphoria is common in people with Autism. I’ve even found dysphoria listed as a symptom of Autism on an Autism website. But… I’ve never found a good story on this so I’m not sure if it’s absolutely true.
Evan
What is the most basic and most important sex-typed difference in animal terms? Aggressiveness. This could be the most dramatically different sex-typical factor that works that largely both-sex circuitry in one way or another.
Interestingly enough I was reading online the other day that humor is a derivative of agressiveness. Maybe a lot of personality traits are.
I know this is a radical idea, but why not listen to what TS people have to say about themselves? No need to take their accounts as gospel, but at least consider what they have to say.
And after being held up as a great success for the treatment, later attempted suicide.
For my views on the subject, see Square Peg, Round Hole. Some of the kids judged “gender dysphoric” are only so because of failed attempts to surgically change the natal sex of Intersexed children. Boys mutilated to look like girls as infants, then judged “sick” when they continue to behave like boys. So they get tortured until they conform.
To prevent the need for transition later in life is a worthy aim, in my opinion. Having gone through it myself, it’s not easy. But the price of these therapies is too high by several orders of magnitude. Simply, torturing children over many years damages them, and the success rate is too small to possibly justify it.
70% or so recover without therapy, and all are whole and sane. With therapy, it’s 80-90%, but most are severely damaged, and in some, the damage is fatal.
The choice is often between a happy, healthy, but sterile heterosexual daughter, or a suicidally depressed gay son. Though many would consider the first to be a mutilated male, and consider that outcome so terrible that they’d rather have them die.
I’ve seen and talked to people who were given this kind of therapy, and those who avoided it but did not recover, and transitioned instead. The latter are healthy, the former, even if they recover, are not. And many don’t recover anyway, they go through the treatment and torture for nothing.
Boo,
You have a way with self-victimising and making other people’s arguments look like threatening arrows directed against you, when they really are not.
I never said that I want to put any decision regarding transsexuals in the hands of biologists. That was your spin, it’s projecting false enemies to move the debate in the area you feel best comfortable with. There are no ‘shoulds’ and ‘musts’ in my replies as to the way adult transgender people should be treated in society.
OK, my example was to show that if it were to judge what is biologically outside of the norm from what is not, you could not use present technologies to further an argument that since artificial types of reproduction are available then there was no reproductive problem before they were available. You don’t change logic after the situation is factually altered. That’s why I moved the picture in the natural realm (‘monkeys cannot get artificial inseminations’) to suggest that in the wild there really is no such option we are used to base our arguments on in the human case. That was to illustrate the point that what can be an impairment in the animal kingdom can actually be accomodated in the human society, so it does not ultimately matter if it’s dysfunctional there and functional here. I could have a lot easier said we’re talking about a condition classified as a disorder and end the discussion, but I didn’t. ‘Deviation’ is just a way of describing a very rare condition found in a biological population which can reduce an individual’s chances of reproducing, securing resources, surviving etc. If there were such a thing as transsexual bears (I don’t know of any), would you say that biologists should not classify them as a deviation from the biological norm, because that would be using a logic of oppressive majority against a defenceless minority? I am not extrapolating biological logic from the animal kingdom to bear on human relations, so why would you do the contrary? It’s clear that human society can accommodate and validate a lot more differences than any other species, so don’t hit the alarm button when there is no reason for that.
Are all adult transsexuals feminine? Is it necessary for one to be feminine in order to be that? How would someone be jugded to be genuine or not? Could someone be feminine and not have gender identity problems?
I agree. I actually don’t think Bailey was right in the conclusions from that study on bisexuality, but as long as he has isolated some facts he can claim there is empirical evidence for his conclusions.
That sentence was not about children. The context was different and you know that. You have to look for earlier posts to see what was my take on the subject in debate. Debate can evolve in many directions.
We could talk about Swaab’s and other people’s research on brain areas we don’t know what precise function they have, but we do have sexually dimorphic correlations… If we associate them with behaviours or gender identity, wouldn’t that be speculation?
(Hmmm, feminine guys are so good with irony!)
I’ll see your bunnies and raise you a couple of hamsters! 8)
Boo
what you’re basically saying is that human beings are cattle to be cut up and remade at will according to however we (whoever “we” ends up being in this scenario) decide we’re comfortable with them.
I never thought I’d see you come out so strongly against sex reassignment surgery. 😎
Look, the reality is that parents have a right to raise their children as they see fit. Medical science will eventually find a cure for dysphoria and when it does this will all be in the history books.
When you were a kid growing up and you knew that you were different wouldn’t you have gladly taken a shot that kicked on your male circuit and ended your dysphoria? Think of the pain you could have avoided? More importantly what do you think your parents would have picked? They are the one’s who will be calling the shots on this stuff in the future.
I really like reading the exchange between Drowssap and Boo. Actually, I really like reading whatever Boo writes. Persuasive and funny.
I am planning several more posts that should bring out some of Boo’s best stuff.
Seriously, I appreciate the way you advance your positions, Boo. I don’t come away agreeing often, but you really do give me lots to think about.
Curing dysphoria might be as simple as flipping one switch in the brain. Male/female wiring is probably in every brain. It just depends which one is activated. That’s how other animals work.
Okay, leaving aside the fact that the human brain is waaaaayyyyy more complicated than a fly’s brain, and that people have been having these Brave New World fantasies for the better part of a century but somehow it never quite lives up to the hype, what you’re basically saying is that human beings are cattle to be cut up and remade at will according to however we (whoever “we” ends up being in this scenario) decide we’re comfortable with them. If your dream world ever comes to pass, I suppose you take it for granted you’ll always be a “we” deciding what the conditioning is to be, and never a “them” being conditioned upon? Someone really needs to make you read The Abolition of Man cover to cover.
I’m anti-abortion.
So presumably we’ll be cutting up little kids’ brains to make ourselves more comfortable with their behavior. I’m with you on the abortion part, at least.
What biological purpose can serve an individual to have a complete mismatch between gender and body? A biologist knows that the normal population includes individuals who are able, after they develop, to become reproductive.
Once again: science is descriptive, not proscriptive. The fact that human development usually leads to reproductive capacity has no bearing whatsoever on whether everyone “should” reproduce. The decision of whether or not to reproduce is currently in the hands of the individuals themselves who would be doing the reproducing or not reproducing. Are you saying you want to put it in the hands of biologists? I assume that can’t be what you actually mean cause it kinda makes you sound like a cartoon supervillain.
You know that cisgendered heterosexuals voluntarily destroy their own reproductive capacity all the time, don’t you? You could go out and get a vasectomy without years of therapy and two letters certifying you as mentally ill for any reason that pops into your head, unless of course you say that you want to be a girl, because then it becomes icky.
How can a transsexual be reproductive if they have one sex, but want to change it according to feelings?
A lot of people just store sperm before they transition. I didn’t, cause I made the choice that I didn’t want to be someone’s “father.” Maybe biologists should have forcibly masturbated me and stored it until they could select a suitable candidate to receive it. Presumably, she wouldn’t have any choice in the matter either, because apparently biologists are now our supreme overlords.
Monkeys don’t get artificial inseminations.
Trees can’t drive. Nana Visitor just guest starred on Battlestar Galactica. See? I can be random too.
Do you know what a guy who had been homosexual for more than 30 years confessed to me in a discussion?
He’s been homosexual for more than 30 years? How many years has he had two legs?
He said sometimes he thought about changing sex because he could feel his partners’ manhood better and have greater sex if he did so. He was talking about it as if the simple thought of being a woman was exciting.
Granted I didn’t hear this conversation, but offhand it sounds like he was looking for a way to increase his sexual pleasure. Reconfiguring his genitals so he and his partner could have sex in a way that simultaneously stimulates them both doesn’t really have anything to do with being feminine in and of itself. Theoretically, he could go get himself a vagina without transitioning and just be a man with a vagina who has better sex, assuming his partner didn’t get turned off by the lack of a penis.
Hm, that made me think that maybe Bailey was right about autogynephilia.
Of course, that’s only supposed to occur in heterosexual men. If it happens to homosexuals that kind of completely screws up his nice little model. Well, lots of things screw up his nice little model, like actual data, internal logic, reality, etc.
If the individual were really female-typical, then he would have less exclusive sexual orientation, right?
If people weren’t so threatened by male sexual ambiguity, they would more easily acknowledge the fact of male bisexuality, right? If str8 men didn’t fantasize about threesomes, they wouldn’t feel the compulsion to make up “theories” of every woman being secretly bisexual, right? If wanting better sex makes you female typical, that means all the guys who buy penis pumps and take Viagra and Cialis are closet transsexuals, right? If people stopped assuming facts not in evidence, they wouldn’t leap to so many unsupported conclusions, right?
Maybe there’s a thrill in male brains to go in the direction that seems most exciting, either by metamorphosing into the opposite sex or preying on the opposite sex.
Cause getting picked on/beat up every day when you’re a kid is just so darn exciting.
In the case of GID people, it must be low levels of aggressivess that makes them activate it in a female-typical way. It’s like the same instinct turned inwards.
Yeah, it must be that. That whole thing with hypotheses and testing and data is just so much PC hogwash. Real science is a simple two step process: speculate –> conclusion. Done!
I’ve got a theory about what causes transsexualism:
It could be bunnies.
Bunnies aren’t just cute like everybody supposes.
They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
And what’s with all the carrots?
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Bunnies, bunnies, it must be bunnies!
Or maybe midgets.
Drowssap,
You’re right about the fact that large chunks of our DNA have been passed on to us in more or less similar forms from different species. That could include some largely unisex circuitry (neuroanatomical sexual dimorphism might not have much to do with how attractions are generated, but with how sexually dimorphic bodies are managed). But think of this idea: Bailey and associates claimed and came up with some evidence that women may not have a sexual orientation or that their arousal patterns may not display it. It’s like the unisex circuitry that you mentioned: they could ride it one way or the other, or both ways. This might actually shed light on how males could look like in terms of sexual orientation if they lacked something very specific to them (or were low on that). So it’s ‘up to males’ to have something that makes the whole difference in evolutionary terms, that creates more exclusive orientations. What is the most basic and most important sex-typed difference in animal terms? Aggressiveness. This could be the most dramatically different sex-typical factor that works that largely both-sex circuitry in one way or another. In the case of GID people, it must be low levels of aggressivess that makes them activate it in a female-typical way. It’s like the same instinct turned inwards.
Boo,
I beg to differ on that. What biological purpose can serve an individual to have a complete mismatch between gender and body? A biologist knows that the normal population includes individuals who are able, after they develop, to become reproductive. How can a transsexual be reproductive if they have one sex, but want to change it according to feelings? How can transsexual monkeys change their sex if they have no surgeons in the jungle to do that? This is what biological deviation is, a trait that is not simple variation in the population, but it impairs the individual in some very basic and vital behaviour. Monkeys don’t get artificial inseminations. Left-handed people are not physically or otherwise challenged. So you may praise ‘deviant’ geniusness for devising the means to allow ‘normal’ transsexuals to transition. 🙂 Do you know what a guy who had been homosexual for more than 30 years confessed to me in a discussion? He said sometimes he thought about changing sex because he could feel his partners’ manhood better and have greater sex if he did so. He was talking about it as if the simple thought of being a woman was exciting. Hm, that made me think that maybe Bailey was right about autogynephilia. Maybe there’s a thrill in male brains to go in the direction that seems most exciting, either by metamorphosing into the opposite sex or preying on the opposite sex. If the individual were really female-typical, then he would have less exclusive sexual orientation, right?
Boo
You would basically have to alter their brains, destroy one person, and create another. You’re going beyond Mengele territory
Curing dysphoria might be as simple as flipping one switch in the brain. Male/female wiring is probably in every brain. It just depends which one is activated. That’s how other animals work.
You and Michael Bailey can carry on with plans to selectively abort gay fetuses
I’m anti-abortion.
My position comes down on the side that parents should listen to their children’s feelings because these are important pieces of information. But feeling’s don’t have an I.Q. These kids feel opposite sex, but they aren’t opposite sex. When an otherwise healthy boy repeatedly says he thinks he is a girl, he’s indicating that he has a real medical problem. But right now we don’t know how to fix it.
It’s more than just “feelings.” It’s their entire way of thinking and acting. All indications are that when these kids transition, they fit in as the opposite sex perfectly. We do know how to fix it. Let them be who they are. Problem fixed.
More importantly in another decade or two we probably WILL know how to fix it. For little kids I would strongly discourage any future, adult surgery. In thirty years this will all be in the history books.
Um… no one’s performing surgery on little kids. Plus, the, um… “fixing” thing- have you really thought that through? You would basically have to alter their brains, destroy one person, and create another. You’re going beyond Mengele territory into… I don’t even know what the name is for the territory you’re going into. Eugenics fits as good as any I suppose. You and Michael Bailey can carry on with plans to selectively abort gay fetuses or whatever. Me, I’d prefer to remain human.
About the Baptists and the Mormon – are you saying that gender identity disorder is influenced by the environment?
I have no idea for certain, just like everyone else. You totally missed my point. Two ten year olds beat up Bradley because they were distressed by Bradley’s gender presentation. Who was feeling the distress in that situation? If I feel so distressed by the way you’re acting, in a manner which doesn’t directly affect me in the slightest, that I decide I have to go beat you up, why should that be considered your pathology? Wouldn’t I be the one with the problem in that scenario? Yet when it’s distress over someone else’s gender, we blame the victim. Why? Because they’re few, because they’re small, and because we can.
Look at the mother’s words:
“So that sort of struck me, that, you know, if he doesn’t learn to socialize with both males and females … he was going to get hurt.”
Is it really Bradley who needs to know how to socialize with other kids, or other kids who have problems socializing with Bradley?
And read the part about the second child again:
“They have these little conferences, and, you know, we were asking, like, ‘How’s Jonah doing? Does she have problems with other kids?’ and the teacher was like, ‘God, I gotta tell you, you know, Jonah is one of the most popular kids. Kids love her, they want to play with her, she’s fun, and it’s because she’s so comfortable with herslef that she makes other people comfortable,” Joel recalls.
She knows how to socialize just fine, and nothing about her changed. The only thing that changed was the way other people perceive her. The first kid and the second kid have the same condition, and acted pretty much identical in their feminine gender expression. One is an outcast, the other is a social butterfly. What’s the difference between the two? It’s entirely in how other people see them. Why is someone else’s discomfort their pathology?
And consider that this is just as common in little girls as in little boys, yet the diangnosis and treatment is overwhelmingly done on boys. Why? Because of how threatening other people perceive feminine behavior in boys vis a vis masculine behavior in girls.
They don’t grow up by themselves, so I don’t see how they would “grow out of it” by themselves.
Well, somehow a lot of them manage to, and without even any parental traumatizing.
But if you ask a couple of biologists they will admit that in any given population this is a deviation. In natural terms, they would consider it a bad outcome.
I think the word you’re looking for is “eugenicists,” not “biologists.” In science, there is no such thing as a “bad outcome.” Biology and other sciences just describe reality, they don’t recommend any course of action on their own, silly propaganda flicks like “Expelled” notwithstanding. Geniusness is a deviation. So is left handedness. Should we “cure” them?
Look at the actual “treatment” prescribed by Zucker’s forerunner Richard Green:
(it seems putting in web addresses gets posts held up? If so, junk the previous one please)
In his early sessions, Kraig and his mother were alone inside the observation room with the one-way mirror. Kraig’s mother wore a set of earphones, and she had a book on her lap. The toy tables were again present. The doctor entered the room and said, “You may play with any of the toys you like on the table, until I come back. You may talk with your mommy, too, if you want to. I’ll be back in ten minutes.” He then left the room.
Initially, Kraig engaged in some type of feminine-identified play behavior. Maybe he picked up the plastic tea dishes, and poured imaginary tea from the teapot. He would have taken a pretend sip, and then offered his mother some. She would have bent toward him, smiling. Kraig would have seen her suddenly jerk upright, and look away from him toward the one-way window. His mother was being prompted, through the earphones, by the doctor. She was told to completely ignore him, because he was engaged in feminine play. Kraig would have no understanding of what was happening to his mother. On one such occasion, his distress at her behavior was such that he began to scream, but his mother just looked away. His anxiety increased, and he did whatever he could to get her to respond to him, but she just looked away. She must have seemed like a stranger to have changed her behavior toward him so suddenly and for no apparent reason. He went to her, pulled on her, did anything he could to get her to speak, even if she were just going to reprimand him, but he could get no response. He was described as being in a panic, alternating between sobs and “aggressing at her,” but again, when his distraught mother finally looked at him and began to respond, she stopped mid-sentence and abruptly turned away, as if he were not there. Kraig became so hysterical, and his mother so uncomfortable, that one of the clinicians had to enter and take Kraig, screaming, from the room.
Maybe they should have just put a dog collar on him and photographed Lynndie England pointing at his genitals.
Michael Bussee
let other kids tease and ridicule the boy into gender confomity
That’s a heartbreaker.
You know, as a kid in the 70s/80s I don’t remember even one kid getting teased because other boys thought that he was truly gay. I remember boys being teased for being effeminate or “gay” but nobody thought other boys were truly gay in the technical sense. We all thought Boy George could just “straighten up” with an attitude adjustment, hehe. It might sounds crazy but I didn’t believe that people were really gay until I was about college age.
Boo,
If you read my posts you’ll find that I know not all kids with GID grow out of it, with or without professional assistance. Furthermore, I’m not in the position to evaluate what Dr Zucker’s interventions consist of and how efficient they are. You would need someone qualified and independent to study his former patients and compare their progress with a control sample. However, I doubt it that systematic and oriented changes in a child’s environment will leave no mark on their development. They don’t grow up by themselves, so I don’t see how they would “grow out of it” by themselves.
In human terms, of course not. But if you ask a couple of biologists they will admit that in any given population this is a deviation. In natural terms, they would consider it a bad outcome. In our society we have a different way of dealing with differences, though. In this respect, I don’t see why someone should be forced to fit in if all interventions have failed to correct GID, as long as there is no definitive answer to what causes this.
Drowssap,
Roger that!
Boo,
About the Baptists and the Mormon – are you saying that gender identity disorder is influenced by the environment?
Maybe they should have tried the NARTH/Berger approach; let other kids tease and ridicule the boy into gender confomity — and tell the “busy-body” adults who would try to stop the harrassment to back off.
Evan or anyone else interested…
I don’t want to post a link because the spam killer will wipe me out.
But if you google
An Evolutionary Look at Human Homosexuality
The first two links (maybe more because it’s in several places) go to Cochran’s paper that explains the Gay Germ Theory. The first time I read it I felt like my brain got punched. It made sense but I’d never read anything like it.
Boo
You’re not paying attention. It’s the kids who are telling their parents, and in cases where the parents support the transition, the children have been telling them that, and acting like the other gender, for years at a time.
My position comes down on the side that parents should listen to their children’s feelings because these are important pieces of information. But feeling’s don’t have an I.Q. These kids feel opposite sex, but they aren’t opposite sex. When an otherwise healthy boy repeatedly says he thinks he is a girl, he’s indicating that he has a real medical problem. But right now we don’t know how to fix it. More importantly in another decade or two we probably WILL know how to fix it. For little kids I would strongly discourage any future, adult surgery. In thirty years this will all be in the history books.
The best we can do right now is help children in the right direction and hope for the best. I don’t mean punishment, or shame or anything like that. They need love and guidance from a parent with a longterm view.
And another thought- if two Baptist ten years old beat up a five year old for expressing Mormon doctrine, should the five year old be diagnosed with “Religious Identity Disorder”?
I’m not the most qualified person to talk about GID, but I read Zucker reported a high success rate in dealing with such problems. I don’t have any idea, though, about any follow-up studies on those cases.
Two things about that- Zucker has never done studies comparing a group of kids subjected to his “treatment” to a control group not so subjected. Since most studies indicate that childhood GID doesn’t persist into adult the majority of the time anyway, there’s no way of knowing if what he does has any long term effect at all. Also, I’ve known several people on forums (which is not, strictly speaking, proof) who say they were subjected to programs like this or know people who were, including people whom Zucker counted as successes, who ended up transitioning later anyway.
On the other hand, the ‘free to be’ approach could put children at an even greater risk in their future life.
Only if you consider transsexualism per se to be a bad outcome. Do you?
But that doesn’t mean he IS a girl, and for Pete’s sake you shouldn’t tell him he is a girl.
You’re not paying attention. It’s the kids who are telling their parents, and in cases where the parents support the transition, the children have been telling them that, and acting like the other gender, for years at a time.
I don’t want to be inconsiderate or show lack of understanding, but, as I wrote on a different topic, generally speaking, this ‘let it be‘ approach comes from our present environment, from what society promotes right now: comfort, identity based on feelings, a relaxed approach to duty. We forget that life it’s about competition by evolution, about running towards a goal, not about fabricating little boxes for people to rest in. I’m afraid teaching children to sit on their backs and wait for feelings to come into play so they can say ‘it’s really out there’ and ‘this is who I am’ will not work in our favour in the long run.
Again, this is not something they simply sit around and let happen. This is marked, persistent behavior which is present from the time the child is first able to express it. Look at the actual article. The parents of the second child resisted for years but the kid just couldn’t not be who she is.
I also know that children have no idea how hard their life might turn out to be or of what can be really good for them in the long run.
You know those transsexual prostitutes out on the street? They’re the ones whose parents didn’t “let it be.”
Yes, I thought about that but I forgot to mention my example was meant to convey that it’s not always right what children ‘really’ want; they might even regret it later.
Scenario: Jona goes to her parents five years down the road and says “You know what? The girl thing isn’t really working any more. I think I want to be a boy.” What’s going to happen? Are the parents going to be like “NO! You must be a girl FOREVER!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!” Or does she just cut her hair short and get some boy clothes? They’re not doing anything irreversible to these kids. Medical intevervention isn’t done in these cases until mid teens at the earliest, so she’s got ten years or so to “grow out of it.”
My concern is a rush to judgemen and then rendering a conclusion with a decision based on such an early age.
Again, in any of these cases, the “decision” could be reversed literally overnight.
The point is to help them fit in with their peer group so they can be happy and develop normally.
And from the article, which child is fitting in better and seems happier?
In humans, sexual differentiation depends a lot on levels of circulating hormones.
Yeah, that’s way above my head. Our sex specific instincts might be triggered entirely by hormones under normal circumstances. What is interesting to me is that if humans are like flies both male and female instincts are locked up in every brain. An “attraction to men” instinct/circuit is probably lying dormant in all straight men. For some unknown reason it’s pushed into action in gay men. That certainly explains why SSA is so common. The circuit responsible might be in everyone.
Jayhuck,
I don’t have an answer to all those questions. I suppose if parents resorted to therapy, they had already run out of options. So therapy should give significantly better results than lack of any intervention.
I must make a correction: Dr Zucker did observe his patients longitudinally. He mentions that sex change candidates are recruited from the 15-20% who did not adjust to their gender after doing therapy.
Drowssap,
Interesting news! But the problem with the fruit flies is that their sex differentiation is cell-autonomous (genes determine fru to splice neurons either male-specific or female-specific, homo/bisexual flies are genetically engineered in the lab), which is not the case with humans. In humans, sexual differentiation depends a lot on levels of circulating hormones. Maybe if hormones are found to play a lesser role than is thought right now in determining sexual orientation and gender identity, but other roles in determining sex-typical characteristics beside orientation we can turn our attention more to genetics, environment or any other biological factors.
Evan,
I’d be curious to know how Dr. Zucker’s reported success rate compares with kids who might not have any type of therapy. Is it normal for most to grow out of this without any help? Do kids who get the “free to be” approach to therapy also have see a majority growing out of this? I also don’t know what he means by “growing out of it”?
I’m also a little disturbed by the kid in the article who is currently seeing Dr. Zucker – I don’t see his current outcome as a good one.
Jayhuck,
You’re right. It’s a more comprehensive issue. THat’s why, in my first post, I broached the subject of temperament stability and change. Temperament has a great bearing on how the child will adjust to his peers. It also plays an important role in the activity he/she will prefer, the sex-typed toy preference, development of certain abilities by doing certain tasks and so on. I believe the environmental factors that have an influence on the early development of temperamental dimensions are addressed in therapy.
Drowssap,
I wasn’t talking about gay kids – I was talking about children with Gender identity disorder, let’s not try and confuse the two.
In the article, parents did try, in a loving and consistent manner, to redirect their child, and it looks like it has resulted in a kid who tells his parents one thing and then does another – I’m fairly certain this is not healthy.
And guiding them in a loving and consistent manner doesn’t negate allowing them to indulge in some of their feelings.
jayhuck
I didn’t mean to imply that dysphoric children should be repressed or punished. I meant they should be guided in a loving and consistent manner. Most of these kids are going to be gay no matter what parents do. That’s not what is at issue. The point is to help them fit in with their peer group so they can be happy and develop normally.
p.s. – judgemen should be judgement
Jayhuck,
Yes, Gender Identity Disorder is complex and should be treated with the utmost care. My concern is a rush to judgemen and then rendering a conclusion with a decision based on such an early age. Common sense tells me not to do this until a child is much older.
Jayhuck,
I read the entire article article before posting.
Evan
As for my links I always get tripped up by the spam filter.
Article #1 from the BBC.
Google: Flies get ‘mind-control sex swap’
The point of this article. Even more research that shows that flies have unisexual brains that come preloaded with both male and female instincts. These instincts are triggered by biological switches. In this story scientists can flip a switch and make male flies behave like female flies and visa versa. Talk about gender dysphoria.
Article #2 from Sciencedaily.com
Google: Humans And Fruit Flies Have Same Insulin-regulated Molecular Pathway To Maintain Energy Balance When Starved
The point of this article is to show just how evolution sticks with simple systems that work across species. “Basic biological processes are remarkably well conserved through evolution. Although flies are less complicated than mammals, fasting triggers similar changes in behavior, physical activity, and metabolism,”
Evan,
Its also a bigger issue than merely giving a child what they want though. This isn’t like buying a toy or indulging misbehavior – its, from what I can tell, a deeply ingrained psychological/biological issue. I’m not sure framing it in terms of “giving the child what he wants” is really fair.
Evan
They discovered a link between fraternal birth order and sensitivity to respiratory problems caused by infectious agents.
You made my night! I’m tellin’ ya a common childhood infection makes so much sense it’s CRAZY we never hear about this theory. Hand orientation can be altered by exposure to meningitis (probably a LOT of things) why not an orientation like sexuality? Are the neurons responsible for sexual orientation invincible to pathogens? No way.
As for birth order, there are birth order effects for all sorts of things. Autism has one, I think Schizophrenia as well. That doesn’t mean that anything is directly caused by birth order. It’s probably a susceptability factor. You might notice that when birth order and SSA are written about in the popular press they are never compared to any other phenomenon that also have a birth order effect… which is probably about 1,000 other things.
Erratum to 100084: it’s birth order, not fraternal birth order.
If you want what’s best for you in the long run, you have to run! 🙂
Jayhuck,
Yes, I thought about that but I forgot to mention my example was meant to convey that it’s not always right what children ‘really’ want; they might even regret it later.
Ann,
My understanding of this issue is that it is much more complex and difficult to deal with than a simple fixation.
Ann,
I agree – it doesn’t mean that it is a lifelong experience. Do read the article though and see how the two children have responded to the two different types of therapy 🙂
Jayhuck,
There is a big difference between pushing a child with shame and coercion and gently and consistantly guiding a child in a certain direction. I was referring to the latter. This goes for potty training, manners, the difference from right and wrong, how to be appropriate in communication and everything else we learn. Children can also have fixations – pillows, stuffed animals, blankets, clothes, toys, etc. – usually they are used for self soothing, however, that does not always mean the fixation is a lifelong experience.
Evan,
This isn’t just about misbehaving – this is a much more complex issue to deal with. That is why I think it has to be handled in a therapeutic type setting. Too often, what the parents WANT the child to do or be doesn’t coincide with what is best for the child in the long run.
I agree with you that it is about developing a certain balance, but in the case of the one child who is seeing a therapist that is trying to change him, we see a child who is possibly starting to develop two lives – the way he acts away from his parents, and the way he acts with them because he knows they are expecting certain things. I don’t see this as healthy.
Indulging the child, to an extent now, may prevent long-term developmental/psychological issues later
Jayhuck,
I made my case very clear that I am aware that a significant part of the GID children does not respond to therapy. I am also aware there must be some limits to their adjustment. That doesn’t mean that parents should cater to all their children’s tantrums or wishes. It’s about giving them the right direction. My niece is almost three years old and she can be incredibly wild if a deeper voice doesn’t tell her that it’s not good to do this or that. Children develop interactively with the people around them, so there is always great scope for working with their developing sense of self-regulation. It’s about developing a certain balance, not about stifling the child altogether. Better now than later.
Drowssap,
I never considered very seriously those hypotheses about infectious factors and how they can affect a child’s future life, but you know what? They discovered a link between fraternal birth order and sensitivity to respiratory problems caused by infectious agents. Who knows? Maybe a subset of the people with orientation or gender variation were affected by some environmental agents (I’m thinking about the left-handed and/or counterclockwise hair whorls homosexuals!). Gender typicality might be affected by that.
Evan,
I disagree with you – you need to read the NPR article and see how the two children reacted to the different types of therapy.
I think this idea of coercing or forcefully trying to change the child results more from OUR OWN desires – what we want – and not is what is best, in the long run, for the children.
I don’t want to be inconsiderate or show lack of understanding, but, as I wrote on a different topic, generally speaking, this ‘let it be‘ approach comes from our present environment, from what society promotes right now: comfort, identity based on feelings, a relaxed approach to duty. We forget that life it’s about competition by evolution, about running towards a goal, not about fabricating little boxes for people to rest in. I’m afraid teaching children to sit on their backs and wait for feelings to come into play so they can say ‘it’s really out there’ and ‘this is who I am’ will not work in our favour in the long run. I also know that children have no idea how hard their life might turn out to be or of what can be really good for them in the long run. I know I sound like a stinker :), but I remember I was a good football player when I was a child and I kind of regret that I took to too much philosophy when I went to high school. 😉 I would have been way better a football player than a political advisor! I know girls would have liked that a lot more. 🙂
I have friends who have a child who has GID disorder – they in no way tell him that he is a girl, but rather than shaming him and making him feel bad for his feelings, their therapist suggests that its ok to compromise and let the child indulge some of his feelings – such as clothes he wants to wear, etc.. No dresses are involved, just more feminine type clothes.
Drowssap,
While you may be right that gender dysphoria goes away for many people in the teen years, I highly disagree with you and Ann that you should PUSH the child against his feelings. I think the subject of whether this is good for the child is up for debate, and from what I’ve heard, allowing the child to “embrace” his feelings may not prevent the feelings from going away in the future. I’ve also read that pushing the child against his feelings can at times cause greater issues to develop.
Common sense can help us sometimes, but not always with issues that are this complex – and this is a complex issue. Let’s not let what we call common sense get in the way of what is truly best for the child.
Ann
I believe what you are referring to is called common sense and most parents have it, however, some don’t.
Bingo! If your son feels like a girl that’s an important piece of information. But that doesn’t mean he IS a girl, and for Pete’s sake you shouldn’t tell him he is a girl. In most kids gender dysphoria goes away during the teen years. Of course that partially depends on parents not reinforcing dysphoric feelings from an early age. Gaaaaah…….. (face palm)
I’m not the most qualified person to talk about GID, but I read Zucker reported a high success rate in dealing with such problems. I don’t have any idea, though, about any follow-up studies on those cases.
This approach can be a two-edged sword, since a significant part of them will be put through some hardship without any knowledge of expected outcome. On the other hand, the ‘free to be’ approach could put children at an even greater risk in their future life.
To the best of my knowledge, changes in temperament in the first years of development are mostly due to non-shared environmental factors, while stability is due to genetic factors (cf. Emde, R. N. & Hewitt, The transition from infancy to early childhood: Genetic and environmental influences in the MacArthur Longitudinal Twin Study, New York, Oxford University Press, 2000.). That may explain Zucker’s high rate of reported success in steering most of his little patients to some degree of gender appropriation, but I guess temperamental adjustments may not be the entire picture here, since scientists don’t know precisely what influences pre-natal factors may have. Biological factors are probably the strongest in their case.
Drowssap,
What about those links?
Drowssap,
I believe what you are referring to is called common sense and most parents have it, however, some don’t.
“What had happened was that two 10-year-old boys had thrown him off some playground equipment across the pavement because he’d been playing with a Barbie doll — and they called him a girl,” Carol says. “So that sort of struck me, that, you know, if he doesn’t learn to socialize with both males and females … he was going to get hurt.”
Of course it’s the kid’s fault for getting beat up. And of course there’s no point in the other kids learning not to beat people up n’ stuff.
Zucker said that all of these activities were dangerous to a kid with gender identity disorder. He explained that unless Carol and her husband helped the child to change his behavior, as Bradley grew older, he likely would be rejected by both peer groups. Boys would find his feminine interests unappealing. Girls would want more boyish boys. Bradley would be an outcast.
Really?
“They have these little conferences, and, you know, we were asking, like, ‘How’s Jonah doing? Does she have problems with other kids?’ and the teacher was like, ‘God, I gotta tell you, you know, Jonah is one of the most popular kids. Kids love her, they want to play with her, she’s fun, and it’s because she’s so comfortable with herslef that she makes other people comfortable,” Joel recalls.
Definitely sounds like an outcast.
So Warren, do you have any thoughts on why childhood GID is the only exception to the DSM’s rule that social noncomformity is not per se to be taken as evidence of mental disorder?
Ehrensaft did eventually encourage Joel and Pam to allow Jonah to live as a little girl. By the time he was 5, Jonah had made it very clear to his parents that he wanted to wear girl clothes full time — that he wanted to be known as a girl. He wanted them to call him their daughter.
RIDICULOUS!!! That is completely irresponsible and destructive. No amount of good parenting is going to cure Gender Dysphoria because it’s almost certainly biologically based. However gentle and CONSISTENT pushing in the right direction can probably help him fit in.
Scientists are incredibly close to unraveling the mystery of gender. (I’d post links but the Spam killer would zap this). By the time this kid is 35 there will be a cure for his problem. Give him some loving and helpful guidance. When he’s middle aged (or sooner) he’ll be glad you did.
IDIOTS! (sorry had to add that)