This is just off the wall.
Wayne Besen has a blog post this morning with this title:
‘Corrective Rape’ of Lesbians In South African Schools Shows Sickness of ‘Ex-Gay’ Movement
In a confusing post, Besen first suggests via his title that the rape of lesbians in South Africa somehow demonstrates something about the ex-gay movement. Then he says, “these extreme cases do not represent the so-called “ex-gay” movement in general.” However, in the last sentence of the post, he hints again at a link with this: “It is time to end the sickening abuse in all of its injurious forms that occur in the name of “corrective” or “ex-gay” therapy.”
This is outrageous. When Paul Cameron links gays and teacher-student sex, he is rightly denounced and dismissed. In my opinion, this post from Besen is the same kind of tactic. What is the point of that post and that headline? How does it further accurate understanding of the story he claims to be telling?
I call on people of good will to challenge this kind of shrill, polarizing rhetoric. I didn’t approve of Sally Kern calling the gay agenda worse than terrorists and I hope people will condemn this linking of sexual violence with people who refrain from homosexual behavior due to conscience of religious belief.
Mary Alan Chambers is the head of EXODUS. As such, he has the responsibility to LEAD — which means calling Black on the carpet when he needs it. Otherwise, it makes EXODUS look worse than it already is. SILENCE IMPIES CONSENT.
Pam – You gave me a good laugh with your comment.
Why not challenge Black to issue a statment since he is the one making it?
Geez Michael and et al,
Wayne knows exactly what he did in posting a provocative title to his writing. That he goes on to say that EXODUS and such groups would not support such a thing totally – again – overlooks the real issue – girls being raped (by any other name ) is still rape. Men and boys have called it many things – whatever – that girl woman needed to learn a lesson (power, control, violence against a whole gender.) It is the abuse of girls that is being overlooked and Besen spun it to his advantage and now cries foul?
I didn’t realize that Stephen Black had “called out” XGW like that. What a deal. The guy has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about. His cozying up to Kern and then spouting off statements like that discredits anything else he might say as far as I’m concerned.
I rarely read Wayne’s stuff either. It’s not that I don’t agree with some of the points he makes (as I’ve stated here), it’s just that when someone speaks with that sort of verbage it’s the ultimate red flag .
For me, to try and engage meaningfully with people (like Besen or Black) who communicate in those terms is, as they say, like mud wrestling a pig. We both get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
Sorry, Michael, I meant the tone of Peterson’s post.
Warren has pointed out to me that my last comment was uncalled for: “Trouble is, Alan doesn’t have the strength of character to do it.”
I take it back. Maybe he does. We shall see.
OK I read it. I agree with Toscano that what Wayne was was doing was citing yet another horrific example of some of the abuses that have been done in the name of “fixing” gays. As I have said, I personally would not have chosen the title and I wish Wayne had not done so. I think it was wrong to call it part of the “Ex-gay Movement” — to even imply or give the impression that the “Ex-gay Movement” would ever approve of such evil.
And, I do not think that Wayne was accusing EXODUS of doing this or endorsing this. In fact, I think he made that pretty clear that he was NOT.
I would not have chosen the same title because it is inflammatory and seems to imply that EXODUS or the “Ex-gay Movement” was somehow responsible.. That is not “winking at it” — at least not on my part. But abuses have been committed in the name of “fixing gays” and these need to be exposed.
I would have titled the piece “Rape of African Girls: Yet Another Example Of The Horrific Abuses Committed In The Name Of Reparing Gays”. That would have been both fair and accurate.
Warren: LOW BLOW! You are WAY out of line in suggesting that that “as long as it is for the cause, you can use provocative titles and language, and it is fine.” It is NOT “fine” and I strongly resent you accusing me of it.
I have not yet read Peterson/s comments, but I will — and if I feel they are out of line I will say so OPENLY AND CLEARLY. But I am just a private citizen, not a member or leader of any organization. I have no official title or authority. Alan Chambers, on the other hand, will not censure leaders of the organization of which he is President.
And Michael, why are you not over at Peterson Toscano’s blog taking him to task for winking at Wayne’s provocative title?
As long as it is for the cause, you can use provocative titles and language, and it is fine.
Warren: “I would say Wayne has no business posting about Stephen Black when he links the ex-gay movement to rapists.” Wayne may not, but I do. I challenge Alan Chambers to issue a public censure of Black before the week is out.
Wendy: You said: “Again, I’m grieved. Such inflammatory comments do not represent me or my ministry – and at this time I am still part of Exodus. In fact, for the record, I would suggest that Exodus leaders would do well to listen very carefully to their critics>
If EXODUS refuses to do this, how much longer will you still remain a member?
Wendy: Thanks for this: “I have encountered brothers and sisters in Christ among the commenters at XGW – even if there are points of disagreement ….. along with those who have clearly been deeply hurt and angered by the actions of the church.”
At least you don’t think we are all part of some sort of “klan” with a terrorist agenda, “Stalkers” or “Nazi’s” who are part of a “demonic wave” to make Christianity illegal.
If you won’t listen to us “klan” members, Alan, please at least do the right thing and put Stephen Black in his place. When I was with EXODUS, we would have booted him off the referral list for such trash — and pretty quickly too. Silence implies consent.
Warren: I am not an apologist for Wayne. We agree on some things and differ on some. I have expressed my dismay and disapproval of Wayne’s inflammatory comparison — but it seems to me that Wayne did make it clear that he did not believe EXODUS would support the torture and rape of girls.
I believe he was pointing out some of the abuses that have been done in the name of “fixing” gays — and there ahve been many: incarceration, exorcisms, schock treatment, castrations, hormone “therapy”, emetic “therapy”. kidnapping and deprogramming teens, shunning, shaming — the list goes on and on.
EXODUS, on the other hand, has done and said NOTHING about its own member;s inflammatory and divisive rrhetoric. NOTHING..
Alan has been completely SILENT about Stephen Black’s ourrageous comments. Now it’s Alan’s turn to publicly and privately censure Stephen Black. Trouble is, Alan doesn’t have the strength of character to do it.
Hmmm. Considering I’ve posted and commented in the last few months on XGW, I wonder if that makes me part of the “klan”?
I have encountered brothers and sisters in Christ among the commenters at XGW – even if there are points of disagreement ….. along with those who have clearly been deeply hurt and angered by the actions of the church.
Again, I’m grieved. Such inflammatory comments do not represent me or my ministry – and at this time I am still part of Exodus.
In fact, for the record, I would suggest that Exodus leaders would do well to listen very carefully to their critics …. heaven knows I have learned a lot that way.
Yes, Michael, we are talking on this post about shrill and divisive dialogue. And Stephen Black’s blog post is more of this. I would submit that it is very similar to Wayne’s.
Free speech is a wonderful thing but so is James 3. Linking gay political activism to Islamic terrorism, Nazis, or the KKK is out of line. And so is linking people who believe a certain way about homosexuality to sexual violence in Africa. All of this rhetoric is offensive because of the direct attack on the target but also because of how the comparisons trivialize the evil invoked by the proposed but inept analogy.
I would say Wayne has no business posting about Stephen Black when he links the ex-gay movement to rapists.
Your outrage is understandable but I hope you can make it an equal opportunity outrage. Unlike Alan, I do think gay commentators and activists should publicly and privately censure Wayne when he engages in the same kind of rhetoric for which they denounce others.
What do you have to say about Stephen Black’s inflammatory rhetoric, Warren? How about the rest of you?
Talk about shrill and devisive dialogue! Stephen Black of EXODUS first praises Sally Kern — after her assertion that the homosexual lifestyle was a “greater threat than terrorism” — then this:
“There are actual GAY hate groups who wish to silence the voices of ex-gays,” wrote Black on his blog. “These groups are like the brazenly named ‘Ex-Gay Watch’ and their klan of bloggers who use hatefully sarcastic words in addressing ex-gays.” (Notice the spelling KLAN)
“One merely need to lightly read over blogs like the “Ex-GAY WATCH” (yes, they are WATCHING and STALKING ex-gay leaders) and/or Wayne Besen’s blog and you will know we are living in very dark days….A very successful attorney friend of mine recently told me he felt it was like 1933 in Nazi Germany for Christians and Exodus type ministries in the USA. He seriously joked with me and said, ‘Stephen it is like 1933 and your last name isn’t Black, but Bernstein. Your ministries will be on the front-line of the next demonic wave of an anti-Christ movement in history. It is coming.’ WOW! It was a sobering moment.”
Klan? Stalking? EXODUS’s critics a “demonic wave?” Comparing ex-gay watch groups to Nazis? EXODUS has absolutely no business pointing fingers and accusing others of divisive and hateful rhetoric when one of their own publishes such comments! See Black’s blog for more: .http://stephenblack.org/
Warren said: “I didn’t approve of Sally Kern calling the gay agenda worse than terrorists.” How about you Alan? “Qui tacet consentit” — silence implies consent. I have stated I that I don’t agree with Wayne’s comparison. Will you now officially renounce Sally Kern’s — and EXODUS’s own Stephen Black for rallying around her rhetoric?
Alan: You, of all people, are in no position to call for the end of “polarizing rhetoric” unless and until you (1) dump NARTH for keeping Berger and Schonewolf on board, (2) openly condemn the hateful views and “abhorrent solutions” of Paul Cameron (not just his lousy “research”), (3) truly get out of politics — a “clean break” — like Wendy has been urging and which you have been ignoring and (4) clearly rebuke Sally Kern for calling the gay lifestyle a “greater threat than terrorism”. Are you willing to do that this week? Just a rhetorical question. We already know the answer.
So Alan.
Will Ken Hutcherson continue to be a featured Exodus speaker?
Yes or no?
Alan,
Do you believe there is room for the comments of Sally Kern? Many of us, including Dr. T. felt that she should clearly be denounced as well. You remained silent on that issue. Perhaps you dealt with Stephen Black’s involvement privately?
Just wondering.
Ann – I think Wayne’s silence says something. I do not think he will answer Wendy’s question. As I read him, my opinion is that he probably does not want any ex-gay ministry to operate.
Let me shock you with this truth, “I don’t agree with everything my friends say.” Furthermore when they say things I think are over the top or down right mean I go right to them and say so. I’m not asking for anyone from the gay community to publicly denounce Wayne, though I don’t think it would be a bad idea.
Let me give you an example of me going to someone who was publicly mean. A few years back an ex-gay leader from another organization called Wayne a Nazi. Not only did I immediately go to Wayne and apologize as a Christian leader, leader of Exodus and fellow human being, but I made others aware of the situation and they emailed Wayne, as well. One of those was Joe Nicolosi who also very quickly denounced the comments from this other leader and wrote to Wayne, too.
I don’t now nor will I begin taking people to task publicly unless there is no other way.
Have I said things I regret? Of course. I apologize for them, too. Have I said things mentioned here that you may disagree with for which I don’t regret? Yes. We disagree on much and will continue to do so.
However, I think there is room for respectfully disagreeing. I think there is room for anger. I think there is room for passionately defending the truths that we respectively hold dear. And, I believe there is as much room for those who are side A (thanks for that flash from the past, Wendy) and their opinions as there is for people who are side B and their opinions. Thank God this is America.
However, when Wayne attributes the rapes of young women in Africa to the ex-gay mindset or when Wellington Boone refers to gay men as sissies or other polarizing rhetoric from one side or the other enters in then I think that we should all clearly state that there isn’t room for that.
I see I made my own error – sorry – it should say
” I might have enough frequent flyer miles to give either one of you to help make this happen if you wanted it to.”
Wayne,
Please forgive me if this sounds petty – just want you to know that this is the correct way to spell “believe”.
Also, would you ever consider visiting Wendy Gritter either by mail, email, phone, or in person to see if common ground can be found? I might have enough frequent flyer miles to give either one of you if you to help make this happen if you wanted it to.
If you do respond to me, please do it with kindness.
Wayne,
Please forgive me if this sounds petty – just want you to know that this is the correct way to spell “believe”.
Also, would you ever consider visiting Wendy Gritter either by mail, email, phone, or in person to see if common ground can be found? I might have enough frequent flyer miles to give either one of you if you to help make this happen if you wanted it to.
If you do respond to me, please do it with kindness.
Cool.
Mary, we are cool. Just wanted to let you know that as part of my practice, I hear and deal with the horror of violent crimes against women. I would not want to diminish that in any way.
We may approach and say things differently, but I am inclined to agree with Wayne on this one: “The Quack panel did not happen because the more people learned about Throckmorton, the more uneasy they became with giving him a platform that might appear to legitimize his outlandish and archaic views on sexuality.”
I agree that the APA got cold feet because of questionable past and present affiliations with less-than-reputable “reparative therapists”, folks who would still like to view gayness as illness, prior membership in unscientific organizations (such as NARTH) as well as some of Dr. T’s own errors of judgement — like featuring exorcist Joanne Highley in his film — as an example of “change” — before really finding out who she was and what she teaches.
Too much lingering odor on the panel to be taken seriously by the APA. You would have to find panel members with a more fragrant history..
Michael,
Thanks for responding. I guess I was just reading all the comments and not one was about the welfare of the girls. And the gay men who were responding were talking about entirely other things. I failed to give you an opportunity before going full blown angry. As you can see – I am fully offended that these girls and their rapes have been jumped on as an opportunity for someone else’s purposes. I never meant to undermine the experiences you have endured.
Still fuming from the American Psychiatric Association’s cancellation of the “Quack Panel” he was scheduled to appear on this week, notorious “ex-gay” therapist Warren Throckmorton continued on his vindictive warpath. All week, he has done the rounds, whining and playing victim, with fawning right wing rags – apparently the only media that will listen to his bizarre ideas.
Throckmorton’s latest stop on his “Sour Grapes Media Tour” is an interview with World Net Daily – a publication best known for publishing a kooky article that claims that eating soy products might turn children gay.
“‘Weird Nut Daily’ and Warren Throckmorton are two peas in a pod, so it was entirely expected that they would join hands to do a hatchet job on TruthWinsOut.org,” said Besen. “It is time for Throckmorton to preserve his remaining dignity by ending his ‘Sour Grapes Tour’ and moving on. The Quack panel did not happen because the more people learned about Throckmorton, the more uneasy they became with giving him a platform that might appear to legitimize his outlandish and archaic views on sexuality.”
Read More at TWO’s Daily Blog
Dr, throckmorton – it looks like worldnetdaily has gotten into this…
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63746
Warren: I am not familiar with the case you and Wayne are debating — but I do know that you have been less than cautious and scientific when you have cited examples of “change” in the past. In your eagerness to find support for your position, you featured Joane Highley (the anus/mouth/vagina exorcist in One Nation Under God) without really looking in to what she does and teaches. Maybe it’s that kind of over-eager sloppiness that fuels some of your critics.
Mary: It’s cool. I got a little hot-headed when you accused all gay men of not giving a hoot that women and girls are being raped. That was ludicrous and unfair. As a survivor of violent crime myself — and as a therapist who routinely helps folks with very painful PTSD, rape and molest issues, your assumption about me could not have been more off base.
With regards to this discussion, Wayne and I share similar concerns about the abuses of the ex-gay movement, but we are not joined at the hip. I have my own opinions and he has his.
Finally, as I have said, i respect Wendy’s work (and at this point ONLY Wendy’s) but I still think it is sad that people wish to change, alter or supress their natural orientation — kinda like a tall person who wishes they weren’t tall. But like Timothy, is people want help changing it or surpressing it, that is certainly their right.
This has devolved into, as they say in Texas, a pissin’ contest. While it can be entertaining….it’s not productive at this point.
I will say that I’m glad to have seen that exchange about the study “cited” by Dr. T. I was curious about that.
And no, I’m not a moderator here and I don’t play one on TV. In fact, I’m just a 4th grade teacher in an itty bitty nothing of a town (that stinks…i mean…really smells bad)….and I only have one degree from a state college. I’m basically of no importance whatsoever. Except that my life has been impacted enormously by all this stuff, I’d probably not know who either one of you guys are any more than the man in the moon. It still seems to me that there’s a place at the table for both of the views you guys present. And yes, Wayne, I agree with a WHOLE bunch of what you say…more than I wish I did just based on my own experience….but good grief. This just really looks more like a personal vendetta than anything.
Wayne,
The size of the institution Warren belongs to may be a factor. One that makes him a better person to look at differing ideas relating the these issues. He may not be thwarted by the ivory tower ego driven ideas of a large university setting in a large unnatural city.
Warren:
Do you beleive in Evolution or Creationism? In your view, how old is the earth?
Do you think Intelligent Design is a nifty course for high schools?
Just curious about your scientific views.
Wayne,
You are trotting this out. No one can help that the guy took an anti-anxiety drug and then started dating women. It seems to have happened. The only one I read saying this is touted as a cure is you. And as an ex gay woman – I doubt that anyone would say that an anti- anxiety drug could “cure” homosexuality. In fact, I don’t think homosexuality needs to be cured.
Now, if that client were truly too anxious to date women and used a medication that allowed his anxiety to decrease – well then it happend. I’m sure it is rare.
JayHuck:
The size, or lack thereof, of Warren’s school matters. One would expect the premier leader of ex-gay therapy to come from a respected institution that one does not need GPS and a high-powered telescope to find.
Unfortunately, Warren is the best they could come up with – which is an indictment of the entire ex-gay industry.
Yes – let’s stay on task.
1) Warren Throckmorton cites an example that says a man had anxiety over his sexual orientation and other aspects of his life.
2) The patient was prescribed a drug to cure this anxiety and in doing so, his homosexuality magically disappeared.
3) Warren cited this bizarre example as a case study that homosexuality is tied to anxiety, and thus can be cured with an anti-anxiety drug.
4) 1+2 = 3 — Let’s get real, Mary and Warren. You have trotted this example out because you must beleive that this drug can cure anxiety and therefore possibly diminish homosexual feelings. If you don’t beleive this, why did you bring it up in a speech and a paper on Evergreen? I never cite research that I don’t beleive in. Why would you do so? Isn’t it time to end the spin and the sophistry and come clean?
Wayne,
I’m not an apologist for Warren – see his response. I am talking to you about your own conclusions and accusations. You have a flare for redirecting a person’s focus. So – let’s try to stay on task here.
Wayne,
With all due respect, I don’t think that bringing up the size of the town that Warren works in or how well-known the college he works at is is pertinent to or helpful with this discussion.
Here is what I said in the transcript of a luncheon address to OneByOne, a Presbyterian ministry that ended up on the Evergreen website. I don’t recall the year of the speech but I think it was around 1999.
I cited several lines of evidence that some kind of change in sexual orientation had been reported to address the contention that there was no evidence of change. This report was one interesting report of a person who experienced a spontaneous shift in attractions and I still think it is interesting but I never then nor now view it as a theory or an approach to mimic. Wayne knows this but here is how he referred to it in one of his articles:
Decide for yourself if I did what Wayne says here.
Now read the Blade’s rendering:
First of all, I did not cite it to the reporter as representing my work. I deliberately noted that this was not my general theory of same-sex attraction since Wayne had implied that it was somehow. Why he worded it as if I cited in the present tense, I do not know. I wrote and ask him to correct that impression but he did not. I was glad that he at least included the statement that I do not view anti-anxiety meds as some way to eliminate same-sex attractions.
Mary:
You clearly aren’t bright enough to serve as Warren’s apologist. The words are what they are. Warren is busted. Deal with it.
Wayne,
The client was treated for shyness and anxiety. That he dated women does not show a consequence of the medication. Nor does Warren say so. Is there more to bring this all into context – because it sounds ke YOU are the one who is busted. And you are making up conclusions.
Warren – are you even capable of telling the truth? The Blade reporter and I got this information from an article you wrote. It is still posted on Evergreen’s site. In other words, you have been touting this study for a long time. Sorry, bud, but you’ve been busted. Here are your words.
I guess you’ve been lying for so long that you can’t remember all of them. You are truly a disgrace to your profession. That is why you work at an obscure college in a two stoplight town of 8,000 people in the woods.
Sorry, Jones said his study was prospective when it wasn’t. My bad.
Warren,
1) I was going by your explicit words prior to the Day of Silence when you explicitly said to me you were giving an option to Christians who believed the DOS was not consistent with Christian tradition or beliefs. In other words, you argued that publicly opposing violence directed at gays was not consistent with Christian tradition or Christian beliefs. I accept the possibility that you have changed your mind on this. However, I’m not sure if you now embrace the approach taken by Appalachian State U’s Christians or if you prefer the approach you advocated. The two approaches are different. Ap State participated in the DOS. You did not advocate doing so. You advocated the Golden Rule IN PLACE OF the DOS. Ap State did it in CONJUCTION WITH the DOS.
2) I read a debate involving Jones on exgaywatch.org about his book. In the debate it was highlighted that even though he said his study was retrospective, it wasn’t. He also argued that the most “prospective” element of his study still showed change – it was demonstrated they didn’t (no change was demonstrated). The debate also highlighted that when he said “change in sexual orientation” he was simply referencing a change in sexual identity. In other words Jones lied in his book. He claimed it was prospective when it wasn’t. He claimed people changed their orientation when in fact they didn’t. Exgaywatch demonstrated that he did not honestly represent the data. So, Warren, don’t patronize me. I’m still waiting for you ex-gay people to actually present evidence, and to do so HONESTLY.
Remember, I was celibate and following conservative Christian morality when I entered ex-gay therapy. No one EVER told me that it was unnecessary for me to be there because , by their definitions, I was ALREADY “ex-gay” (a term that is misleading if ever there was one). Would you like to know the HARM that ministry caused me? Would you like to know the BIGOTRY my “Christian friends” demonstrated when I realized my sexual orientation would never change? After all, because of lying people like Stanton Jones, they believed that I could actually CHANGE MY SEXUAL ORIENTATION. You see, Focus on the Family, etc tell people that they can become “ex-gay”. They don’t HONESTLY tell people that “ex-gay” simply means being celibate. Hear my clearly Warren, I WAS ALREADY CELIBATE. So all the pressure and condemnation that was put on me when I wasn’t able to change my sexual desires was BECAUSE of people like Stanton Jones who LIED when he said people could change their ORIENTATION, when he really meant they could only change their IDENTITY or their BEHAVIOR. Do you understand why I consider you ex-gay people totally IMMORAL?
Wayne – The reporter knew of the case somehow, I assume though your “Sultan of Stigma” attack article. I did not give him those details but explained that the case was from a peer reviewed journal. I was explaining to him where you got the idea that I believed SSA could be cured with anti-anxiety drugs. The reason this statement (“Throckmorton told the Blade he does not believe that treating someone with anti-anxiety medication will convert his or her sexual orientation.”) is in the Blade article is because I had to correct the misinformation you created in the first place.
Jayhuck,
As a woman, I know that gay men have it better than girls and women worldwide. I hope you understand my extreme anger when I draw the line at something as absurd as making raping girls into a gay issue. These two are not the same and there is no comparison. Even girls in this country are sexually abused more than boys and gay men. Girls wordlwide suffer more than any other group I can think of. We should all be outraged that anyone would hijack this particular group for their own purpose. These are little girls. It doesn’t matter what the rapist calls it – rape is rape.
Sorry Mary – that last post may have come across more offensive than I intended it to be. Its hard for me to offer up any kind of constructive criticism with people when I know I’m guilty of the same or even worse offenses – I think its a great thing that you apologized to Michael though
Mary,
I appreciate much of what you write, and I’m fully aware of my own mistakes and bad judgment calls when it comes to posting here, but you do have a history of not really reading and understanding another’s post before you jump down their throats – you’ve done that to me many times.
And Michael, I am sorry and apologize to you.
Thank you Ann, Wendy, Warren for cooler heads.
Michael,
Fair enough. I accept what you say.
Timothy? A fraud about what? That I am mad – that all of a sudden makes me a fraud? About what exactly?
Warren claims – The Blade muddied this:
“Throckmorton cited another case in which he claims a 23-year-old gay man was treated for anxiety with Phenelzine. After two months, the man “began dating women exclusively, enjoyed intercourse and expressed no sexual interest in men.”
Warren says: “This makes it sound as though I was involved in this case. I was not and never said I was. This story is from a professional journal letter here.”
Warren, this is why I regard you as a classless snake. You say you were not “involved,” yet you cite the study to back up your case. Same damn thing. If you don’t beleive in this study, why mention it to the Blade reporter? I’m sure he did not know about this obscure study on his own.
You brought it up to prove a point and now when I call you out on it, you distance yourself. Either own the work you cite or don’t mention it at all. What you do is play both sides of the fence, and that is why I have less respect for you than any of the quacks, including Nicolosi and Cohen. At least they are honest about who they are and have actually written books defending their bizarre notions. But, not Throckmorton. One minute he plays Harvey Milk and the next he’s a clone of Anita Bryant. Make up your mind already and stop the games. People are catching onto you.
Timothy,
Well put. One thing I admire about Wendy’s “take” on things is that it seems to me that her approach allows God to be God. By that, I mean that all gay Christians don’t have to come to the same conclusion and they are respected as Christians who are being sanctified just as all Christians are within the process of becoming more like Christ. It’s a journey. And, while all our paths are leading to Christ, there’s at least a recognition of and respect for divergence along that path.
Dr. T,
You are welcome.
I totally think that there is a place for Wendy and New Directions. I find their support for gay folk seeking to live according to their values no more offensive than helping straight folks live according to their values.
Yeah, I know the difference is that straights at least have the option of marriage to look forward to. But there are going to be gay folk that want to be celibate no matter what I believe and I think it useful to provide them with support for their goals.
Mary,
You’ve finally convinced me that you’re a fraud.
One good thing that has come out of it is the question Wendy asked Wayne. He may not answer here but I think it is an important question that people have to ask and address if there is any hope of any common ground.
Wayne may want to see all such ministries go away but it was good for Michael to say he does not. I hope other of our gay friends register their views on that topic as well. Off topic perhaps but a good off topic I think.
Thanks for your calming comment.
Dr. T.,
While I agree that Wayne’s headline and linkage of the rapes with Exodus is over-the-top, I’m not so sure it’s a good or wise use of time for you (or anyone) to call it out like this and get this big crazy argument going . It looks to me like the same sort of thing Wayne says all the time….if not even a bit more tame since he did say a good long bit in the actual article about how he knows Exodus wouldn’t sanction rape.
I don’t know. I think it might be better if you two didn’t even read each others’ stuff. He says inflammatory things about you all the time. Big whoop. I think for you to call him out like this only feeds the monster…..and not just in Wayne….this comment thread is getting downright ugly.
Thank you Ann.
Wayne is welcome to respond to me directly rather than in this public forum at:
wendy (at) newdirection.ca
Wendy,
I really appreciate what you wrote about New Directions and refer to the web site many times – thank you for all you are doing and especially the way you are doing it. I was just wondering if you would get a more personal and positive response from Wayne Besen if you directed the note you posted here to him personally. A one on one conversation might bring out a more personal and positive side from him than what we have experienced from his posts to an open audience.
Mary: Please re-read the headline for this thread: “Wayne Besen (not Mike Bussee) links rape and the ex-gay movement”.
Mary: Please cool your self-righteous jets! I have made no link and have not tried to make the rape of girls a “gay issue”. It is not. I do not agree with Wayne’s “linking” of the two — and have clearly said so.
What more do you want? For your information, I read each and every comment before posting. You asked why it had taken one and 1/2 days. I wasn’t playing “poor sick Mike”. I was simply answering your question about why I had not commented until today. I read them (all) this morning when I got back.
Mary: Don’t be mad at me. Wayne made the link, not me. I also think it was over the top. Wayne and I are in agreement on the great harm done to may people in the name of “fixing” or “repairing” homosexuality. Beyond that, he speaks for himself.
That’s as bad as the rapists excuses.
Duh and when are you going to get the idea that raping girls (no matter the excuse) is just that – raping girls. It happens all over Africa and is a HUGE problem. (And when they become pregnant and have children – education stops)
This is not a gay issue – this is about the oppression of women. Period. I am angry that any self respecting person is going to tack on a gay issue to the coattails of girls being raped in Africa.
Girls being raped is not a gay issue. The mistreatment of girls and gays is. In some places, having sex with a virgin girl against her will is considered a protection against AIDS. Abuse or mistreatment of any person is wrong. Period.
No MIchael – I do not. And once again you made it all about – could you not read the full blog and posts before responding? And yes, I have suffered physiclaly for being gay as well. What does that have to do with the tea in China? No one stopped you before you started in with your opinion.
I owe not one apology to a man or woman who has made this a gay issue or about themselves in any way.
Poor, poor Michael he has been sick and could not read the posts. And so I am to forgive him for not thinking about this in it’s proper place and getting on the train with the gay issue? Sorry MIchael – you are a grown man. Read.
Girls being raped is not a gay issue. Stop finding commonality there.
Michael,
Your criteria is a solid foundation for a ministry and one that I hope is paid attention to and implemented where needed – which are many. Really, to involve itself with anything other than the basics would be to diminish the intent of the ministry in ways that would continue the cycle of contention.
Mary asked: “Then why haven’t you made the connection until now? Check the blogoshpere – A day and half later and only now you bring this up?
Hold the phone, Mary! Before you jump to slef-righteous conclusions about my concern for abused women — or lack of it — you should know that I have been quite sick and off work for three days. This is the first I have heard of this. In any event, this comment is totally off-base and unfair: “And there you go again – playing the victim of being picked on for being gay instead of seeing the reality that girls and women are oppressed just for being girls and women.”
I am not “playing the victim” — and I wasn’t just “picked on”. I was nearly killed and my best friend murdered for “just” being gay. That’s not “playing”. That IS — and I in no way mean to imply that my being vicitimzed for being gay makes rape victims less the victim because they are “just girls and women”. That assumption are your part is obscene.
As a father of a daughter who is a molest survivor — and as a therapist with many women who have been abused (sexually and otherwise) for you to accuse me of not caring about them is way out of line. You owe me an apology.
Isn’t interesting Timothy how you call Wayne Besen an activist and me (a woman)
when I am angered. Hmmm. Yet, again, a woman who speaks about her rights and the rights of other women and her outrage with the lack of sympathy or understanding from men –
. Girls being raped and my outrage at how men have turned this into a gay issue is called being
.
Yep. I see you point very well Timothy.
Mary,
I refuse to play strawmen games. No one has ever said that men are raped more than women.
If you had even bothered to read what I said, you’d find I was finding commonality between women who are raped because they are women and gay men who are raped in the third world because they are gay. In both instances it is heterosexual men who are the aggressors and often the purpose is keeping people “in their place”.
If you stop delighting in being offensive for a moment you might understand what I’m saying. It isn’t confusing or difficult.
Michael,
I can honestly say that New Direction is seeking to meet 1,2 and 3 of your conditions. Regarding #4 – we are actually trying to move away more and more from a therapeutic model at all and rather focus on mentoring, spiritual direction and basic pastoral ministry. This area is one where we can and will always seek improvement and recognize our own limitations. We know we’ll never “arrive” at a perfect place here. But we do try to be upfront and clear about where current scientific research stands – recognizing that none of us on staff are researchers per sae nor scientists.
Mary
Now you are just refusing to read what anyone writes and lashing out instead. Clearly your hatred is blinding you. Go back and actually read what I and Michael – and Wayne, for that matter – have said.
Timothy,
I am glad you say you are offended – now prove it.
Historically – women are raped more than men and men do most of the raping. Prove me wrong.
Ann,
Desperate people do desperate things and this has revealed desperation. Go ahead – keep rationalizing it – you are really hitting on all cylinders now.
I’m confused. Who are you directing this at? Who is rationalizing rape?
Mary,
There you go over the edge again.
No, the historical use of rape for subjegation is not “a gay issue”. And implying that gay men do not like women is beyond offensive.
Michael,
Then why haven’t you made the connection until now? Check the blogoshpere – A day and half later and only now you bring this up?
Hmmmmm. Because many gays see only a gay issue. Your sister, mother, daughter can be raped for having an opinion that girls and women should be educated!
It seems that girls and women must always save the necks of others just to save their own. But is seems Besen and so many others simply overlook this issue.
And there you go again – playing the victim of being picked on for being gay instead of seeing the reality that girls and women are oppressed just for being girls and women.
Wendy asked Wayne: “That is, of their own volition, they choose to not engage in same-gender sexual activity. Their main concern does not lie in attempting to change the direction of their sexual attraction, rather their focus is to live a life that is consistent with their beliefs and values. Do you see any room for such a ministry?
I imagine Wayne and I might disagree on this, but I do “see room for such a ministry” — as long as it (1) is non–political, (2) doesn’t hammer people with “you’re sick, broken, disordered and destined for hell if you don’t change” messages, (3) TELLS THE TRUTH and (4) uses sound sceintific and therapeutic methods in helping people live according to their values.
There is room, but I still think it is sad that people want to change or suppress their natural sexual orientation. But if they choose to not engage in same gender sexual activity, hey, that’s their right. Heck, I have decided, from time-to-time, not to engage in sexual activity — for reasons of my own. No one ( at least I am not) saying people don’t have a right to make that decision or to seek help in keeping it..
Last time I checked, a man could not get an erection without having sexual thoughts – raping them for “correction” was not their whole motivation, rather, secondary to gratifying themselves as girls and women were injured and harmed both physically and emotionally. One of the more creative rationalizations for rape that I have heard – then to take that and use it as an opportunity to push a personal agenda is beyond reprehensible. Desperate people do desperate things and this has revealed desperation. Go ahead – keep rationalizing it – you are really hitting on all cylinders now.
Mary: This comment is totally unfair: ” I don’t see gay men being outraged and jumping on that band wagon.” You seem to be implying that gay men, as a group, are not concerned about violent crimes against women — just crimes against themselves. Not true. We all have sisters, moms and female friends. We are not monsters who only care about what happens to us.
Wayne,
I’m not sure the answer is as simple as you paint it out to be.
Similar to the question that David Roberts posed on XGW back a few months and that Warren posed to you, is there a place for a ministry that seeks to be a safe place of support and encouragement for those who experience sexual attraction to their own gender (ie. not in denial) who, in light of their own beliefs and values (ie. that they own for themselves, that have not be coerced upon them), choose to not be mastered by their experience of same-gender attraction. That is, of their own volition, they choose to not engage in same-gender sexual activity. Their main concern does not lie in attempting to change the direction of their sexual attraction, rather their focus is to live a life that is consistent with their beliefs and values.
Do you see any room for such a ministry? Obviously, you do not agree with the values that would cause an individual to seek to not act upon their sexual attractions. But that isn’t the point. You aren’t being asked to agree with those values, you are simply being asked whether you see any room for such a ministry to exist.
I should mention, that New Direction does not view itself as an ex-gay ministry. This has been its legacy in the past. But as we seek to continue to evolve and discern what our primary focus and calling is – we find ourselves not longer fitting the description of an ex-gay ministry. We are discipleship focused – not change-driven. That means that sexual orientation change is not the primary focus of our ministry. Perhaps, if you are familiar with Bridges Across or GCN, a better descriptive would be that we are a ‘side B’ ministry that has both a front-line component (offering support for those seeking to live consistently with their beliefs and values) and an equipping and resourcing component (where we seek to both equip and resource the Christian community holding a ‘side B’ perspective for relational, respectful, relevant and redemptive engagement with gay people.
Despite your disagreement and sentiment that a ‘side B’ position is not legitimate, would you be willing to acknowledge the place for a ministry with the focus I’ve described above?
Though I would not articulate my concerns in the same manner I have read of you, you and I actually share some similar concerns. Even though I am a conservative Christian, I share the concerns about coercive and unjust treatment of gay people. I am opposed to homophobia. I am grieved by the bullying and harrassment gay people endure. I am ashamed that so much of this unjust treatment has come at the hands of self-proclaimed Christians.
As a conservative Christian, I speak very boldly (as I did this morning at the national conference of pentecostals in Canada) about the distractions of the evangelical church on gay issues. We’ve missed the point so many times. We’ve spent ridiculous energy fighting the wrong battles (ie. the question of causation and the whole question of orientation change – when we should have been addressing issues of injustice and whether or not gay people felt they would be welcome in our churches).
So, Wayne, I ask you, as a leader who has sought to listen very carefully to the critique of gay people (and yes I did read your book) and have sought to be teachable and make corrections that were consistent with what I believe to be representative of the person and ministry of Jesus, on whom I base my calling and work, do you have any room in your perspective for someone like me – recognizing that there are areas in which we disagree.
Would it be your preference that people like me simply disappeared?
To be honest, I dare to suggest that if people like me disappear there will be very little change (much needed change) within the conservative Christian community. And it is unlikely that the conservative Christian community is going to disappear any time soon.
Wouldn’t it be better to make some space for a more moderate voice within a community who’s views you disagree with to work at bringing some change on which we can both agree is needed and necessary?
Or would you simply write off what I have written above as disingenuous?
Not every Christian who holds a traditional sexual ethic is out trying to force gay people to change their orientation. And not every Christian holding a traditional sexual ethic turns a blind eye to injustice perpetrated against gay people.
What say you?
It isn’t difficult to understand unless an individual is not content with their orientation. That individual has the right, whether it is understood or agreed to by others, to determine what is best for them in their life. If they do not value their sexual attractions and orientation, they have the right to take a different path than others take. I do not endorse any kind of unethical therapy but not all therapy can or should be lumped together.
You know Timothy – you call it the spoils of war, Besen calls it another ex gay ministry tragedy. I call it the long history of the inhumanity towards girls and women in this world.
Men who do not love or even like women can barely see this inequity.
Women are raped more than men. It is a hate crime. Yes, that is about power.
Yes, men get raped – but far less often. And when they are being raped – think of who is doing it – do you think it is mostly women?
Ooops! Now we have men raping men. Now that is a gay issue. Since the victim may very well not be gay but the perpetrator is obviously excited and has imposed himself on someone.
Mary,
If you are missing the objection and horror that gay men have to women being raped I think you may not be paying attention. That was, after all, the point of Wayne’s comment – that the logical extension of ex-gay ministries was the violent and horrible rape of these women. Whether we agree with the linkage, it’s clear that all here find rape to be horrifying.
I find it interesting that you bring up the way that women are little more than subservient sex objects in many parts of Africa. They can work and serve, but never be treated as equal. That is undeniable.
It is also relevant to the subject of orientation.
Much objection to homosexuality, especially outside the West, lies in the assumption that gay men are rejecting their role as the masculine leader and taking the role of a lesser being, women. As such, they are subjected to the same contempt that some men in these parts show to women, only moreso for defying the roles. They are seen as a threat because they aren’t upholding the natural way, that of men’s superiority in all things. While this is less so in the West, it is still there to some level. You can hear it in the anti-gay sermons of some preachers who base their objection on God’s creation of man and woman and assigning them separate rolls.
And you are correct that rape is not about sex, it’s about power. And that is why primitive cultures used rape against males captured in combat as well as females. It’s about subjegation. And that is what is behind the rape of lesbians, I believe; it’s putting them in their proper subservient woman role and punishment for taking a man’s role.
And you will find, if you look, that rape of gay men in third world countries by persons of authority is not uncommon. Look to the stories of immigrants and refuges.
The plight of women and gay men are often linked. I don’t see this as self-centeredness but as a common cause.
You could not even say the rape of girls – you objectified them and said South Africa!
Wayne,
Religion is not the ill. It is people. That you have little or no regard for another person’s religion is your issue and your ill. That you have made the rape of girls into your own vendetta on others is sick, sick, sick. You do not care about the welfare of those girls as your response would have been focused on them and not targeted onto someone else. You are as twisted as those at FOTF, LWO etc..
Now you are doing alot of back trtacking and trying to explain your methods. Same ole. same ole. A rose by any other name is still a rose. And yours stinks!
I think the “linking” of rape and ex-gay programs was off the mark — along the lines of Kern comparing gays to terrorists.
Michael – I did not directly “link” the two as a cause and effect. I made it clear that Exodus does not endorse rape. That much is obvious and i stated as much. The attempts to portray greater linkage are a smear campaign by Warren and Exodus because they are angry about the Quack Forum going down in flames.
However, Exodus spreads the harmful message that people can and should change. This can lead to people taking desperate measures to go straight. Sometimes, this takes the form of simple prayer. Other times it leads to a Richard Cohen with his tennis racket. Or, Love In Action basically incarcerating kids against their will with their now closed down boot camp. Or, Andy Comisky’s spiritual warfare. This is not healthy for people. Period.
The indisputable fact is, Exodus ministries don’t have uniform policies. Each group comes with its own bizarre methods. In other words, efforts to change often take a life of their own – such as in South Africa – whether Exodus approves or not.
Once you introduce the bigoted idea that gay people can and should change, you are opening the door to all sorts of dangerous methods. This is especially true as Exodus and Focus on the Family introduce their dangerous ideas into cultures they do not fully understand.
Is the rape in South Africa the fault of Exodus? No. No. No. (Clear enough?)
It is obviously the fault of the people who did it.
Do the ideas of Exodus create a climate where the lives of gay people are worth less – and thus subject to more violence? Absolutely.
As for Warren’s question about Wendy’s ministry – the answer is simple. When a person comes out of the closet, they should be able to seek love and/or sexual pleasure without guilt or mentally damaging hangups – just as many of their straight counterparts do. This is the world I am working to create and will succeed at doing so. Any ministry or therapy that seeks to change sexual orientation is immoral, bigoted and psychologically damaging.
Most people are straight. A few are gay. Both sexual orientations are gifts and equal in every way. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? Why must ex-gay ministries exist to say some people are not worthy of love, sexual pleasure or affection?
Religion has benefited many people. However, when it comes to the treatment of minorities, it has a poor track record. Warren and his religious brothers are wrong about gay people. It is time he just admits that he is wrong and opens a gay affirming counseling center. If he does so, he will finally the successes he only dreams about in his current ex-gay activities.
Thank you Ann.
Mary,
I really appreciate you pointing out the obvious – women are being harmed and others are using it as an opportunity to validate a personal agenda. It is absolutely unconscienable.
Thank you Warren.
Mary – I hear you loud and clear.
Michael,
I am also aware that women have been tortured, insitutionalized, mis-treated for having such far out ideas as the one that they should have property rights, voting rights, voice over their own body rights etc… Rape is still considered a sex crime – when it should also be considered a hate crime (one where the victim is chosen for their sexuality, gender, etc… ) I don’t see gay men being outraged and jumping on that band wagon.
Simply because the perpetrator of the rape crime in Africa is saying that the woman or girl is a lesbian (not even proven) is a sham. All too often because a woman is a lesbian – gay men become involved and overlook the very basic idea that the victim is a woman – and that was the choice for the crime – non other.
I am shocked by the self centeredness of many in this blog.
Michael,
I am well aware of that horrible treatments that have been used on gays and lesbains. But at least you admit that Besen’s “rational, and well reasoned” conclusions are just way off base.
I doubt anyone thinks that rape is a cure – even those who are doing the raping. It’s just an excuse – one that has been used for centuries.
Of course, sexual assault/rape of any person is reprehensible and tragic. I think the “linking” of rape and ex-gay programs was off the mark — along the lines of Kern comparing gays to terrorists.
That being said, ex-gay programs and reparative therapists, past and present, have recommended some pretty reprehensible and tragic “solutions” to the “gay issue” — among them, castration, shock therapy, shunning, emetic drugs, kidnapping and forced deprogramming, imprisonment, exorcisms, etc.
Men and boys have been raping girls and women for centuries and using all kinds of excuses.
Why have the men on this blog overlooked that fact. And those who say they are socially conscious are just arguing what others have said about gays. Why is no one outraged that raping girls is happening and no one has addressed that? How has the violence against a girl or woman become a gay issue?
There is some really absurd thinking going on? Am I the only who see this?
Let’s forget about raping girls and talk about us – again.
I’d like to thank all the gay men here who have so graciously been concerned about these girls.
It has been my observation that Exodus disclaimers are not worth the paper they are printed on. Exodus has been caught contradicting itself more times than I can count.
Warren: The quote you cited above is NOT enough: “We do not support the work of Paul Cameron nor desire to use flawed research.” Talk about wimping out!!! Until Alan and EXODUS firmly and emphatically denounce Cameron’s teachings and what you call his “abhorrent solutions” to the gay issue, Alan has no room to talk. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, Alan, remember?
He has no right to criticize Besen until he clearly (and officially on behalf of EXODUS) denounces Cameron’s Nazi-sympathetic views — and gets out of NARTH altogether. NARTH still uses Cameron and still keeps Berger and Schoenewolf on board — and Alan is still affilated with NARTH — even though he promised me he would dump NARTH if there weren’t some “big changes”.
Finally, EXODUS still supports the views of Sally Kern and her “worse than terrorism” comments. Wayne may be strecthing a bit — but not much when you consider how little EXODUS has done to clean its own house.
Warren,
I do agree with you here – it is not ok to do those things, and I’m glad you acknowledge the hateful climate that conservative Christians have created. It is too late for some conservative Christians to lead the way against harassment though, because others have already stepped up to the plate. It would be nice if they got on board and followed however.
RE: Cameron and Alan C. – there is this and a disclaimer was placed on their site at that time.
Haven’t read Wayne’s comments yet, but Alan Chambers has no room to point fingers here. EXODUS has still not officially denounced and dismissed Cameron. What about it, Alan?
jayhuck, David & John – Sorry, what I hear is rationalization for Wayne’s remarks. If it is not ok for exgay groups and social conservatives to stretch research, distort facts, attack character, and use hyperbole to mischaracterize their ideological opponents (and I agree it is not ok to do those things), then it is not ok for Wayne to do it.
The purported link between South African rapes and ex-gays in this country is missing a crucial factor – factual relationship. Otherwise, anything can be related to anything else if it suits the correlator and the facts don’t matter. I understand the climate argument and think it has some merit within communities (which is why I believe Evangelicals need to repent of their tone and rhetoric toward gays. I think statements such as attributed to Hutcherson create a hostile climate here. I further have had a change of heart regarding how to relate to the Day of Silence because I think Christians can lead the way against harassment, if we have the will to do it.).
If there was an Exodus in South Africa and this group had engaged in harsh and demonizing rhetoric, then one could make a case. In absence of that however, it is just more of the same thing that he complains about from social conservatives. More broadly, it appears to me that Wayne objects to the belief of conservative Christians that they should not engage in homosexual behavior as an aspect of their conscience and religious devotion. Now if I am wrong in that, I would like to have Wayne or anyone else tell me how a group like Exodus could promote its services and mission without being linked to thugs in South Africa.
Let me make this more specific. I think we all have been impressed with the efforts of Wendy Gritter at New Directions in CA. To me, I would like to know if Wayne believes New Directions is a viable and respectable way to proceed with sexual identity ministry. Or should all conservative sexual identity ministry, including New Directions, be shut down?
Warren,
Surely you realize that altering sexual behavior doesn’t mean that a real change has taken place?????
Well, I must echo David Robert’s words as well – thank you for them:
Is it really so difficult to understand the climate to which the Church and ex-gay movement have contributed? Remember, this includes Matt Barber, Peter LaBarbera, and the increasingly secretive, almost cult-like PFOX. And these are only local nuts held somewhat in check by an increasingly informed public in the US. What about Ken Hutcherson flying to former Soviet Republics with a far more heinous message still?
It’s not all one group’s fault, but it wouldn’t it be incredible if someone besides Wendy would stand up and realize the part that has been played? Perhaps that might even be more Christlike that spending ten times the effort complaining about the way Wayne phrased it.
Amen
I can only echo Timothy’s comments as well:
However, David Roberts’ point is spot on. Exodus and Alan Chambers do not have the right to complain about this broad-brush comparison. There have not been, to my recollection, a single instance of homophobic abuse or unfair comparison that was so out-of-lines that Alan or Exodus were willing to publicly oppose.
To Wayne and Warren,
I think you are both too close to the issue. Wayne, I really admire your stance on the ex-gay movement, but I think you often do not really understand the evangelical culture you critique. With all due respect, oftentimes your rhetoric on evangelicalism is way off-target, failing to show a respect for the diversity and nuance present within the evangelical movement. I don’t fault you for this – it’s almost impossible to understand evangelical thinking unless one grows up in the movement, and often even then it’s problematic (especially for evangelicals who stay within the movement, as they rarely understand themselves).
Warren, yes this rhetoric is something of a leap, but not totally. I think sometimes the response to the ex-gay movement, because of the enormous pain that therapists like you inflict (and I’m sure you don’t mean to), leads people to overstate their case. For instance, in the documentary Fish Can’t Fly, reparative therapy is called a form of sexual abuse, which I think is really pushing that term farther than it can go. But at the same time, I believe reparative therapists, other purveyors of ex-gay therapy, and their polar opposites in the biblical counseling movement, do a grave disservice to people when they tell them that biologically induced behaviours can be changed by merely ‘thinking one’s way out of it’. Both ex-gay therapy and biblical counseling tell people that there is something intrinsically wrong with them, whether it be their homosexuality, their OCD, whatever. This leads to hopelessness, because these intrinsic traits can not be changed. I hate to say it, but I don’t think your therapy framework is a radical improvement on the outdated Jay Adams model. In fact, it may be worse.
I’m pretty sure he is referencing the Phenelzine case above. Prozac is often used colloquially as a generic name for antidepressants.
In the end, it does certainly sound like you are at least highlighting the use of a similar medication to change one from homosexual to heterosexual. One could certainly be forgiven for taking it that way (and if not that, why do you bring it up?). And I have to admit, even in publications more sympathetic to your view, you do seem to be “misquoted” an awful lot. Perhaps you should be more careful about what you say in those interviews?
Anyone who sees me as anything but moderate on these issues is either blind or a liar, and yet the only thing I can find wrong with Wayne’s article would be the title. Here is the meat of it:
Is it really so difficult to understand the climate to which the Church and ex-gay movement have contributed? Remember, this includes Matt Barber, Peter LaBarbera, and the increasingly secretive, almost cult-like PFOX. And these are only local nuts held somewhat in check by an increasingly informed public in the US. What about Ken Hutcherson flying to former Soviet Republics with a far more heinous message still?
It’s not all one group’s fault, but it wouldn’t it be incredible if someone besides Wendy would stand up and realize the part that has been played? Perhaps that might even be more Christlike that spending ten times the effort complaining about the way Wayne phrased it.
As a lesbian I was well aware of the “what a lesbian needs is a good f—” that lingered in the air of bigots.
Now as an ex gay I am angry that a person like Besen has taken that statement to the extreme. What is happening in South Africa and in many places in Africa is that WOMEN are not respected. THIS IS NOT A GAY ISSUE! This is an issue about the welfare of girls and women who have been abused for generations.
One gay man in America has hijacked the real issue and promoted it for his own self interest! SHAME ON YOU BESEN and ANYONE who is going along with your fabricated tirade. It’s now always about gays.
Get passed the self center world you live in and start looking at the bigger picture.
So you cannot source the claim that I promote Prozac as a cure? I knew you couldn’t since it is not true.
And the SIT Framework, nothing from that?
The Blade muddied this:
This makes it sound as though I was involved in this case. I was not and never said I was. This story is from a professional journal letter here:
The Blade and you in your writing on this got it wrong. I did not say I did this nor did I say that this approach would change same-sex attraction in general. However, you seem to have no trouble leading people to think that I believe that or that this a theory of mine. You can deny what these authors found if you want, but your issue is with this case as presented and not with me.
The case of the young man I reported is very much like one reported by Joseph Wolpe, hardly a quack. The goal of therapy was not to change his sexual attractions but rather his mental health concerns. For some reason, he described change. I don’t care if you believe it or not. I don’t care if you believe Joseph Wolpe or Albert Ellis or Allan Bergin or Nick Cummings or other mental health giants who have reported change, infrequent and often unintended, but change nonetheless.
Even Joe Kort recognizes that some people appear to be gay and via self-discovery and therapy alter their sexual behavior. He doesn’t believe they change orientation and he may be correct, it is an interesting theory. You should visit his blog sometime.
http://www.truthwinsout.org/pressreleases/two-comments-in-washington-blade-on-apa-forum/
Warren, you have peddled bizarre and quack-like “cures” for years. In the latest edition of the Washington Blade:
He cited a case of a 24-year-old man who came to him with an anxiety disorder. It was revealed that the source of his anxiety “was confusion surrounding his sexual orientation.” Throckmorton says therapy was “not focused on conversion but rather on self-understanding and social assertiveness.” By talking about his sexual feelings, the patient’s anxiety subsided and “the homosexual feelings faded, replaced by heterosexual dreams and crushes on female co-workers,” Throckmorton said.
Throckmorton cited another case in which he claims a 23-year-old gay man was treated for anxiety with Phenelzine. After two months, the man “began dating women exclusively, enjoyed intercourse and expressed no sexual interest in men.”
Warren, how do you look yourself in the mirror? It is astounding that you try to come across as mainstream, when you are quite fringe. Your theories are worthy of the scorn and rejection they receive from real, licensed professionals.
Based upon your past and current associations, you have no credibility when you claim that you are not biased in the outcome of a “patient.” Indeed, they very fact these clients come to see you because they are troubled by their sexual orientation is an indictment of societal anti-gay bias, which you perpetuate. Healthy GLBT people who have not been damaged by people like you have no need for such therapy, as they have no internal conflict. You are the problem, Warren, not the solution.
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/does-exodus-influence-attitudes-in-africa/
Hmm, it seems North American “ex-gay” groups have a little more to do with attitudes in other parts of the world than they like to admit.
It isn’t a leap to say that Africans who are portrayed as broken and in need of “repair” might have an increased likelihood of being victims of hate crimes. After all, once people are dehumanized – it makes it easier to attack them. Clearly, this Nigerian ad by an Exodus Global Alliance affiliate are demeaning and make the lives of gay people seem worth less than those who are not in need of “repair.”
Warren, the fact that you can’t see how such rhetoric affects how people view GLBT people speaks volumes about your demonstrated bias. Again, this is why you are not given the time of day by the psychological establishment.
Sorry, forgot to hit the email follow-up box. 🙂
I’ll go on record as “ditto” to Timothy’s comment.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to put that together, Timothy.
I can only laugh this concerted effort to attack my well-reasoned position on the tie between what happens in South Africa and the local ex-gay fraud. Exodus and their ilk, also don’t like to take responsibility for hate crimes and school bullying – yet they oppose hate crime legislation and oppose the Day of Silence. Sorry, but your actions have created a climate where such violence can and does occur. How about earning your conservative credentials by practicing personal responsibility?
I know this must be difficult to hear. But, the indirect actions and violent words by America’s ex-gay organizations give license to those who wish to justify assaults and intimidation against homosexuals. Exodus likes to disingenuously claim it loves gay people. Yet, Exodus has never met an anti-gay law it has not campaigned for (including sodomy laws) and has done everything possible to empower bullies in public schools. Your record is shameless and you are responsible for much pain, violence and suffering.
Indeed, the primary job of Randy Thomas and Alan Chambers is to get up in the morning and make life as difficult as possible for GLBT people. You call us “sexually broken” and “perverse.” Alan Chambers brazenly scares gay men by falsely stating that once they go bald they will never find love. Could one get more lowball and immoral than to peddle such lies?
Undoubtedly, this patently dishonest and sleazy hate rhetoric makes some people feel shitty about their lives. Those affected may contemplate suicide, drink themselves into stupors or numb the pain with drugs. Others, lacking self-worth, kill themselves with unsafe sex.
Like a sick joke, once Chambers and Warren “I’ll cure you with Prozac” Throckmorton demolishes these poor individuals, they turn around and cynically offer to help them. What a load of garbage and utter hypocrisy. The entire so-called ex-gay industry stinks to the core and needs to be shut down. It is not a movement, but a slick marketing campaign rife with consumer fraud and it is literally killing people.
I know the truth stings – but I’ll be more polite when you stop decimating vulnerable people – particularly gay youth. There are those of us who are not going to allow you to push around gay people – and that is what really upsets you. The days of you demeaning our lives for political gain without avid resistance have ended – forever. Deal with it and move on.
I find it interesting that Chambers took his typical cheap shot (that’s the only way he fights) by comparing me to Fred Phelps. This is a man who protests funerals and says horrible things about homosexuals. Much like, say, Alan Chambers. Here are a few of Chambers’ “loving” quotes:
“I believe the gay community is a good group of people but with groups like NAMBLA [a pedophile group] riding on their coattails.”
“But as a property owner of Orlando, I wouldn’t rent to someone who is gay any more than I would rent to a person who is a practicing witch.”
“One of the many evils this world has to offer is the sin of homosexuality. Satan, the enemy is using people to further his agenda to destroy the Kingdom of God and as many souls as he can.”
So, Chambers ties GLBT people to child molesters who are in bed with Satan and then has the nerve to compare me to Phelps? He says these horrible things that dehumanize and then whines when he is linked to what happens in South Africa and elsewhere? Alan, it is time you grow up and own the swath of destruction that you have left in the lives of many people across the globe. (It’s called Exodus International, after all)
Likewise, Chambers’ bizarre comparison of me to the disgraced researcher Paul Cameron has backfired. I have been in the advocacy business for nearly twenty years. In two decades, I have cited dozens of researchers and written two books. Not once has a researcher chided me for distorting his or her research.
However, Chambers makes his living by shilling for Focus on the Family’s James Dobson. Last week, Gary Remafedi, M.D., M.P.H., a professor of pediatrics at the University of Minnesota, asked Focus on the Family’s leader James Dobson to stop misrepresenting his findings from his key 1992 study. This is at least the seventh acclaimed researcher in two years to accuse Dobson (Chamber’s effective boss) of twisting their work.
Clearly, if one is to be compared to the serial research distorting Cameron, it is Dobson, not me. Yet, Chambers has never criticized King James, nor has he pledged not to take Focus on the Family’s filthy money. Once again, his flimsy argument falls apart and it is clearly Chambers and his intimate associates whose records resemble Paul Cameron’s.
Finally, it is obvious that Throckmorton is bitter because his APA quack forum was cancelled. How amusing that he portrays me as radical, when his entire career has been dedicated to gay bashing. (Remember the movie, “I Do Exist”) Most notably, his denial of the harm caused by ex-gay therapy is disgraceful and unethical. Until he admits that his line of work is deadly and damaging, he will continue to be dismissed as an unserious religious partisan with a right wing agenda. How people don’t see through his charade is bewildering.
His accusation that I hate his religion is a paranoid delusion. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what his denomination actually is. I really don’t care what deity he prays to. However, I am concerned about the damage he is doing to GLBT people in the name of this deity.
For example, Mr. Throckmorton’s new therapy model “Shame Induced Trauma” (SIT) is absurd. As a result of his biases, he continues to steer gay people into lonely lives of celibacy or doomed marriages because he is too arrogant and intellectually bankrupt to flat out admit that his religion is dead wrong on the issue of homosexuality. Time and again, Throckmorton has chosen dogmatic religion over demonstrated reason, faith over facts and sectarian loyalty over logic. This is why he has not a shard of respect in the established scientific community and is not taken seriously by anyone who matters. (The opinions of the Warren’s lost blog sycophants and Peter LaBarbera notwithstanding)
The bottom line is that the words of Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas and Warren Throckmorton damage people at home – and as a result of the Internet – reverberate across the globe. To try to spin this and portray me as extreme for pointing out this obvious fact is not going to work. If you want this fight – let’s have it. We can compare your work, words and record to mine any day of the week. I welcome this challenge.
Each morning, I wake to help people, while you guys wake up to shatter marriages and ruin lives. This is why I am considered mainstream, while you three are viewed as extreme.
@Wayne Besen:
I think your defense speaks for itself. You really do think ex-gays are responsible for rapes in South Africa. Astonishing. Even though several on your own blog have challenged your logic, you persist. You are persistent, if nothing else.
You accuse me of promoting cure of homosexuality with Prozac. Please source this. Also, you say that the SIT framework steers gay people into making certain choices. Please source that from the framework.
Actually, Peter doesn’t think too much of me today either so you are wrong about that too.
Timothy – I do find those descriptions of the DOS to be unlike what I have seen or heard in my conversations with kids around the country. I agree that charges that kids are disruptive or are instructed to refuse to talk to teachers are not consistent with what I read on the DOS website. And I do take strong exception to the “gay sex kills” headline and other Cameronesque headlines as you do.
I am glad that at least one gay blogger (you) and commenter has agreed that Besen’s remarks were out of line.
Nick – If you are going to post here, do not fudge the facts or make claims you cannot back up.
1. Have you not read the post of the Campus Crusade for Christ group that supported the DOS and the GRP? If I did not think that was admirable, I would not have posted it on my blog and the Golden Rule site.
2. You are making a slanderous claim about Jones fudging data. Choose your descriptions more carefully so that they are accurate.
I don’t believe ex-gay therapies in the USA promote rape. I cannot speak for ones overseas.
However, regarding Alan Chambers’ comment – I cannot recall if Exodus has gone on record as officially condemning violence against gays and lesbians. They seem to oppose any and all political or educational activity aimed at stopping violence against gays and lesbians. Even you, Warren, thought that participating in the Day of Silence was in opposition to Christian tradition and beliefs – hence your need for an alternative message.
And what about “Christians” who LIE by saying that people can change their sexual orientation, as Stanton Jones did, when he has to fudge his data to make it appear so, and when challenged on it, he admits that they only changed how they identify, etc.
So, Alan Chambers, Warren Throckmorton, and others, when you hold conservative Christians accountable for their blatant lies and refusal to speak out against violence against gays, then perhaps we’ll listen to you. Until then, you’re nothing but clanging gongs that promote liars.
Are conservative Christians above reproach? Absolutely, positively NOT. So, stop playing the victim card – you are liars.
Warren,
You would be interested in seeing a more extreme comment that Barber has made. The most offensive of Wayne’s comments was (I think):
Here are a few Barber quotes from the past few weeks. You decide who is more extreme and perhaps ponder why Exodus and Alan feel that entitled to be defended when they are attacked.
And if you have concerns about Wayne’s headline, how about this one
To which the ex-gay community has done nothing but nod. Just this past week there was another report from an Exodus affiliate on LaBarbera’s site extolling the virtues of Sally Kern – they just can’t tell you enough how much they love and appreciate her homophobic rants.
I don’t find Wayne’s hyperbole to be either appropriate or useful. I do distinguish between Exodus and rapists. I don’t think the comparison is valid.
But I’m not sure that Alan Chambers or Exodus deserve even a moment’s passing defense from me or anyone else gay.
However, to the credit of the gay community, some of us have disagreed with Wayne. Because we aren’t monolithic.
And, unlike a huge percentage of the ex-gay and anti-gay community, we don’t believe that we have to defend every immoral lying hateful rant that is directed at the “enemy”. Maybe this can be a catalyst for Alan to rethink how a Christian should respond to such things.
If I read Wayne correctly, my paraphrase would be:
Where I think that argument fails is that these rapists are not part of any ex-gay effort, per se. They are just beasts acting out their aggression.
Further, to tie them in the same breath to ex-gay ministries is no more credible than those who try and talk about the Fetish Ball (which is mostly heterosexual) and HRC in the same breath. I think the brush is painting far too broadly.
However, David Roberts’ point is spot on. Exodus and Alan Chambers do not have the right to complain about this broad-brush comparison. There have not been, to my recollection, a single instance of homophobic abuse or unfair comparison that was so out-of-lines that Alan or Exodus were willing to publicly oppose.
I believe he’s upped his spewage rate and feels pressured to say something several times weekly. It will likely get much more bizarre.
I agree that this kind of rhetoric should be condemned.
First I would say how horrified I am to hear of such actions in South Africa.
Secondly I would observe the challenges of this arena for those connected with Exodus who are seeking to remain focused on pastoral ministry. It seems there is an expectation of activism yet also a critique about excessive political involvement. I have gone on very public record as urging Exodus ministries to stay out of the political arena on gay issues. There are other Christians and Christian organizations who can engage politically. Yet I hear in Mike’s comments a failing on the part of Exodus leaders to not be more outspoken in an activistic way. If Exodus leaders are urged to be activists – then politics don’t fall far behind.
For the record, I am deeply troubled by some of the actions or lack of action by Christian conservatives on many of the issues Mike raises. At New Direction we are specifically working on a new section for our website related to issues of justice in which we will articulate our perspective on a Christian response to issues like bullying, homophobia, how to serve gay and lesbian people etc. But at the end of the day, my staff and myself are pastors not activists.
So I feel a sense of dilemma …. I want to demonstrate a just and Christ-centered response and be part of a proactive effort to equip Christians in today’s context to engage gay people in a manner that truly reflects the heart of Jesus …. but I would not consider myself an activist….. an advocate hopefully but not an activist.
Finally, I can’t help but feel saddened by the obvious enmity that quickly arises when certain key players from the different sides both comment. I pray that those who name the name of Jesus would reflect grace in your comments. For those who claim to be Christ-followers – we are to be lovers of our enemies. Sorry I don’t mean to patronize anyone – but this honestly and deeply grieves me.
I think all the ranting about things done by “militant homosexual activists” in other countries such as Canada, Sweden, the UK and elsewhere repeated ad nauseum by people at the FRC, Exodus, AFA and the like as an example of what pro-gay legislation would do in the US makes a comparison to goings on in South Africa just as valid.
Wayne Besen is a mean man with malintent “towards people “who don’t see things his way” or worship like him. Reading his book was like being at a gay cocktail party where the game was who could insult people the most. That’s what his book is filled with. There is a list of Wayne Basin’s Top Hate “Anti-Christian” Quotes .It is commentary and research if he humiliates people of varying religious traditions but it’s hate if it’s the other way around. Many of the practices he attacks in his book Anything But Straight to as hocus pocus have along traditional practice on African American and other churches.
1) Besen describes his visit to such a church in Orlando, Florida, that had, in his words, “an authoritarian, Hocus-pocus worship style”.
It should also be noted that black religious groups use this form of worship to get closer to God, Wayne thanks the Holy Spirit is a sham.
(p. 4. This, under a chapter subhead he calls “Ministry Mouse and Deuteronomy Duck.”
Wayne also refers to “convincing Jesus to wave his magic wand” as
the means by which some people experience change, and claims “they have reduced God to no more than a rabbit’s foot, a simple good luck charm that is used to stop them from masturbating or running to an adult bookstore” (p. 44).
2)”Crazy stories are almost as ubiquitous in the ex-gay community as prayer” (p. 45)
3)”Many of the ex-gay leaders appear to have untreated mental
Disorders… An alarmingly high number of ex-gays…report hearing voices and having visions, which may very well
Be hallucinations”
(p. 43).
4) These ministries have merged pseudo-science with religious beliefs to create, in effect, a new religion; eventually they will collapse under the weight of their deceit. But as long as they
Survive we will have trouble winning any political battles.”
5)”The ex-gay ministries are very excited about this, An anonymous source tells me that James Dobson called Silo and signed him up for zoological ‘Love Won Out’ tour.”
6)”Tennessee sent a strong message that Love and Action is not above the law. This dangerous and dysfunctional group should be held accountable and expected to adhere to professional standards like other mental health facilities in the state.
Tennessee is rightfully and responsibly protecting its citizens from unscrupulous
And unlicensed practitioners posing as genuine mental health professionals.
I urge every state in the nation to look at their local ‘ex-gay’ groups to determine if they meet basic mental health guidelines.”
7) most (ex-gays) are suffering unbelievably dark, lonely, miserable lives” (p. 37).
8) The vast majority of the (ex-gay ministry) leadership and nearly all of the spokespeople … (are) self-destructive, unstable
Individuals who lack self-control and have decimated their personal
Lives
9) “The dangerous quack psychology of the lucrative reparative therapy industry” (p. xviii)
10) “The zany characters who run these programs” (p. xxi)
11)”Moberly sends the quack-o-meter off the charts” (p. 104)
12)”Moberly’s pedestrian book”(p. 103)
13)”twisted antigay doctors such as Jeffrey Satin over” (p. 137).
14)”the avaricious Cohen” (p. 121).
15)”Reparative therapists are detestable, money-hungry con artists who lure and bamboozle susceptible people with misleading promises
And false hope.
One reason these quacks practice their chicanery is to cash in on this lucrative industry, but one cannot dismiss raw hatred as the primary motive that drives these charlatans to extreme lengths to denigrate lesbians and gay men”
A Rebuttal to Wayne Besen
Article Debunks Wayne Besen’s book “Anything But Straight”
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wivesofexgays/message/2228
Mike – What does any of that have to do with rape of lesbians in South Africa?
I will briefly address some key points made above.
1. I wish it did, but the Bible unfortunately does NOT uniformly condemn rape and polygamy. The Old Testament has a number of heroic polygamists and rape is justified in the context of war and collecting the spoils of war. The mixed messages of the Bible and Quran sadly continue to be exploited by social conservatives to excuse violence against women in various parts of the world.
2. Exodus affirms the consideration of intent when authorities excuse misdemeanor acts of public disruption and mayhem committed by Repent America. And Exodus tolerates the consideration of intent in hate-crime laws that punish felony violence based on victims’ race and gender. But the moment that someone suggests that felony hate crimes also be punishable based on victims’ sexual orientation, and suddenly Exodus becomes livid at the thought.
3. Exodus Global Alliance affirms criminalization and imprisonment of gay people in Barbados and presumably elsewhere around the world. Links available at TWO. Criminalization and imprisonment are viewed as Christ-like tools of state sexual coercion.
4. I appreciate Warren’s statement against Sally Kern, but he seems to be the only exgay-related activist to have done so. Exodus’ own Stephen Black proudly affirmed Kern’s hate and incitements to violence. Most other ex-gay activists have been silent or have parroted AFA, FRC and FOTF.
5. Ditto what others have said about Ken Hutcherson and Watchmen on the Walls.
6. Exodus and the Exodus Global Alliance have refused to condemn well-publicized antigay mob violence in Jamaica, and they have refused to even acknowledge, much less condemn, the killings of gay youths this year in the United States.
My point: Among ex-gay activists, there is a spectrum of silence, tolerance and affirmation of violence. Chambers in particular has refused to condemn countless acts of violenceand has opposed all public-school programs that take explicit steps to stop antigay violence.
Violence is very much a tool used by proponents of sexual conversion around the world — and in the United States. Murder and rape are an extreme — but they are happening in the United States, too, and Exodus has persistently turned a deaf ear to calls for protest against such violence.
Those of us who are ex gay and don’t belong to NARTH or EXODUS find both extremes repulsive. Besen skews information as much or worse than his counterparts in the “ex gay” world. But he nor those ex gay pundits speak for all of the gay community or ex gay community. I am tired of the gross behavior from both sides.
Let’s talk about dodges, Randy.
Let’s talk about Ken Hutcherson, favored speaker of Exodus and his behavior as of late.
Wayne doesn’t speak for me but Ken Hutcherson speaks for Exodus (proudly).
David … what a complete dodge. Back to Besen’s outrageous behavior please.
David – I would be interested in seeing a more extreme comment that Barber has made. I am not disputing you at this point but I cannot think of one off hand. Maybe as extreme, but more?
I would take your concern much more seriously Alan if I heard you make such comments about people like Matt Barber or just about anything that comes from World Net Daily. Instead you are silent on the former, and link to the latter from your personal blog. Barber makes far more extreme comments than does Besen.
Warren, that argument you just gave is a substantive response to Besen, and there’s room for argument on both sides of the issue you raise. I’m not defending Besen’s argument, I was just pointing out that there’s more to it than you initially let on.
Kevin – Wayne has one note – ex-gays and non-affirming religion is bad and unhealthy. This same religion forbids rape. Exgays would if asked, note the same horror at this conduct.
I could just as easily assert that the existence of TWO creates a sour climate for SSA Evangelicals where their faith is demeaned and their beliefs are viewed as inferior.
And then shall I argue that persecution of Christians worldwide demonstrates the sickness of TWO?
Besen’s language is inflammatory — no news there. But Warren ignores Besen’s central point, which is that “the very existence of these organizations [Exodus and NARTH] creates a sour climate where GLBT lives are demeaned and homosexual relationships are viewed as inferior.”Besen’s method of arguing for that conclusion is probably not a good one, because South Africa’s conception of sexuality is very different from ours, and it’s unlikely that Exodus and NARTH have much influence over there anyways. But that is a substantive response to Besen — unlike Warren’s “it’s inflammatory, therefore we should condemn Besen” response.
Wayne has become the Fred Phelps and Paul Cameron of the left. He could have taken the inflammatory language out of the post and built a bridge by asking Exodus to join him in decrying the violent rape of innocent children in the name of forcing heterosexuality. Had he asked, I would have joined him in such an effort.
I hope the gay community as a whole sees Wayne as a very poor spokesman for their cause.
Warren,
This kind of thing only demonstrates once again the hatred that Besen is trying to propagate towards those who do not see the world as he thinks everyone should. He is creating more hatred towards all gays, not just those leaving the lifestyle, than anyone else I know.