Justin Dean – Page 2 – Warren Throckmorton

How Did Church Leaders List Get Mars Hill Church's Email List?

Initially, the story of Craig Gross buying an email list from Church Leaders List seemed like a marketing story gone sideways. However, there appears to be much more to the matter.
At the end of Christianity Today’s article on this, Bob Smietana wrote:

On Tuesday, Dean apologized for his part in the drama over the list. He admitted that he’d been involved the initial sale of the list to churchleaderlist.com (screen cap of page now removed from the web).

Now Justin Dean’s website is down (and his Twitter page has been removed) and so that statement is not available (except via Google cache) and screen cap below.

According to Craig Gross’ explanation, Dean’s involvement may have been that Dean was churchleaderlist.com. I asked Dean yesterday and today about his dealings with Church Leaders List but have not heard back from him. Gross wrote:

I found it interesting that as soon as I posted this that Justin Dean posted a blog on his website that he somewhat apologized for distributing the list to me. Lets be clear, he sold the list to me. He didn’t broker a transaction. He sold me the list along with several other people who paid $1350-$1500 for the list.

I asked the lawyer that was in charge selling the assets for 100k earlier in 2014 and he said that no one has purchased the rights to sell these assets yet.

I have seen communications which indicate to me that Mars Hill Church has not sold The Resurgence email lists. Thus, if the lists have not been sold by Mars Hill Church, then how did Church Leaders List get them?
From my conversations with former Mars Hill staff, I believe there is a limited group of people who have access to the lists.
Mars Hill Church is still a viable entity but has not responded to repeated requests for information or comment. Given the non-profit status of the church, the public and former members still have an interest in their operations. If the church is selling member emails without permission, then they should come forward and acknowledge this. If not, then the question remains, how did Church Leaders List get that information?

Craig Gross and Justin Dean Speak about The Mars Hill/Resurgence Mailing List Story

UPDATE: Just a bit ago, Craig Gross updated his post with the following information:

I asked the lawyer that was in charge selling the assets for 100k earlier in 2014 and he said that no one has purchased the rights to sell these assets yet

That lawyer is Steven Goodspeed and Gross is referring to this information about the sale of The Resurgence website and related email lists. If these assets have not been purchased, then how did Church Leaders List get the email list?
UPDATE 2: Wenatchee the Hatchet just posted a screen cap of Justin Dean’s Ministry Communicators Association with an ad for Church Leaders List on his MCA Facebook page.
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Last night, I noted that Craig Gross, director of xxxchurch.com, sent out an email to a mailing list he purchased from a now missing-in-action website called Church Leaders List. The email included former Mars Hill Church members and those who had signed up for information from Mars Hill’s training ministry, The Resurgence. Gross received a backlash from supporters of Mark Driscoll because the email included critical remarks about Driscoll. Read the entire email here.
Now Craig Gross has provided his perspective on the matter at his blog and Justin Dean has done the same on his website.
Dean’s statement to me in full is as follows:

I issued an apology here: http://justinjdean.com/craig-gross-the-real-story/. I regret my involvement in distributing the list and am deeply sorry. While I was not involved in Craig’s email, I’m equally at fault. Although I think it’s a shame that your story isn’t about Craig Gross’s misuse of the list to spread gossip, and his unapologetic attitude towards doing so.

Craig Gross sent a link to his website as well.
From start to finish, here is how I see it.
Someone took out Churchleaderslist.com as a domain on March 3, 2015. A twitter account was established at about the same time. Not long after that, the website was live and twitter activity began advertising the sale of a mailing list of Christians and church leaders. See screen caps below. First the twitter account:

The website is no longer available but a screen capture of the cache is below:

Justin Dean said he believed the mailing list would be used for spreading the gospel. The website recommended by Dean indicates that the list can be used to promote books, events or products.
The pitch for the website says the lists were compiled from churches, websites and conferences. Apparently, some or many of those addresses have been used without permission.
According to Craig Gross, Justin Dean pitched the mailing list (Gross says Dean pitched The Resurgence list) to Gross’ staff on March 15 (see his post for a screen cap of the text). Dean says in his post that he was “involved in distributing a list of church leaders to a couple of people who I assumed would only use it to spread the gospel and bible teaching.”
Gross then purchased the list and sent the email which stirred intense reaction from Mark Driscoll supporters yesterday afternoon. Sometime afterwards, the Church Leaders List website and twitter accounts were pulled. Gross received a refund for his purchase from Church Leaders List.
Gross then asked Dean if Dean sold the list. Gross noted that the media templates for Dean’s new Doxa Media company and Church Leaders List phone # is 678-829-4458, Dean’s phone # is 678-829-4455 (also uses 678-829-4450). A call to the Church Leaders List doesn’t get an answer.
According to Gross, Dean denied owning the list, saying instead that he was “involved” in distributing it.
This may blow over quickly but there are some important issues raised. Why did Church Leaders List close down as soon as former Mars Hill people started to complain? Who was/is behind Church Leaders List and where did they get those email addresses? Are the current leaders of Mars Hill Church selling emails of former members? If so, I wonder how Mars Hill Church members feel about this use without permission.
Additional information: It is curious that Marshill.com, Theresurgence.com, and a bunch of other related websites are registered to Justin Dean. Did Mars Hill Church sell them to him? Did they give them to him?

Justin Dean Talks About What Went Wrong at Mars Hill Church

I haven’t watched it all yet but for those who want to get all perspectives, this is a valuable session with Justin Dean. Some of it leaves me scratching my head but if he is serious, it helps give insight into the demise of the church. I’ll add observations throughout the day and evening.
[youtube]http://youtu.be/1GMMjjZO_Xo[/youtube]
Dean talks about Mars Hill Global Fund (42:00) and calls the accusations about it “craziness.” He says there were “a lot of evil people out there” (42:51) attacking. Dean said there was “evil at work, God at work” that led to the church’s demise. He is still demonizing those who he apparently still considers his opponents.
Let’s remember we are talking about a church that Paul Tripp said was “without a doubt, the most abusive, coercive ministry culture I’ve ever been involved with.” Dean doesn’t seem to have a category for that. Is Paul Tripp evil?
As I listen, I get the impression that the whole thing still seems overwhelming and beyond comprehension. I also suspect that he really doesn’t know the shenanigans his superiors were involved in.
Open forum in the comments section. A caution: Keep the conversation respectful of Dean and those on all sides of the Mars Hill fence.

Former Mars Hill Church Spokesman Justin Dean Gives Advice About Dealing with the Press

Former Mars Hill Church spokesperson offers advice to churches on how to handle the press in his new gig with Ministry Communications Association.
He certainly has had experience doing so and it appears he has taken some valuable observations away from his time at Mars Hill.
When I read this tip, I thought of the ResultSource New York Times Best Seller list fiasco.

If you know press may start poking around about a certain topic, gather your team and come up with approved messaging and basic principles ahead of time. That way your spokesperson can be prepared. It’s a good idea to write down approved answers to common questions about your church’s beliefs, and have those well prepared in advance as well.

Mars Hill had three messages in response to inquiries about Mars Hill Church’s financing a book buying scheme, all offered in the space of about a week. In March, I wrote:

This is the third reaction from Driscoll/Mars Hill to the ResultSource scheme. First, Justin Dean told World Magazine that the RSI-Mars Hill relationship was an “investment” and an “opportunity.” Then the Board of Advisors and Accountability said the scheme was “unwise.” Now Driscoll says he first saw it as a way to maximize book sales, but now sees it as manipulative and “wrong.” The vacillation about whether gaming the system is a good opportunity, unwise or wrong is confusing and won’t do much to convince people that Mars Hill and Driscoll can be candid.

It appears that there was an internal struggle about how to message the revelation to the public. I have asked Justin about the discrepancies and will add any information from him to this post.
The bottom line advice is to have a pastoral staff that doesn’t place the PR person in a position to defend the indefensible.

Markdriscoll.org is a Copy of Marshill.com

UPDATE: markdriscoll.org is down, and has been unavailable since the evening of 12/27, just a few hours after this post went live. There is an interesting message for visitors:

At least he is sorry about something.
………………………..
(Original post starts here)
So says Justin Dean, recently departed spokesman for Mars Hill Church.*
There is a reason why Markdricoll.org looks like Marshill.com: Driscoll’s new site is a copy of the church website. In addition to the obvious similar appearance, several readers alerted me that the source code for Markdriscoll.org contains many links to marshill.com (see a pdf of the code here). Initially, I wondered if Mars Hill Church was hosting the content for markdriscoll.org. When I asked Justin Dean about it, he said via email:

Concerning the website, MarkDriscoll.org – nothing on that site is being hosted or paid for by Mars Hill. If there’s anything in the source code that indicates otherwise, it’s because the site is a copy of marshill.com with most of the functionality and code stripped away. The site is on its own servers and was handed over to Pastor Mark.
The domain is also registered to Learning for Living, not Mars Hill Fellowship. Mars Hill originally purchased that domain many years ago and has now turned it over to Pastor Mark. It takes time for the Whois information to update, which I believe it is now.

In answer to a follow up request for clarification about the links in markdricoll.org’s source code, Dean replied:

Since Mark’s site is just a copy of marshill.com there a probably a lot of links to Marshill.com that remain, but it doesn’t mean the church is hosting content for him. After 12/31 those links will be broken if he doesn’t change them.

I then asked if Driscoll had paid for the code (assuming it is all proprietary information which is an asset of the church). I also asked who at the church had given Driscoll permission to copy the code. Dean replied:

As for who approved or what was paid, I have no idea. That would be private information. I no longer represent Mars Hill as my last day was 12/24/14.

To illustrate the copied source code, below is an image of the code for the header of markdriscoll.org which displays Mark Driscoll’s name but maintains some Mars Hill’s content:

The “Welcome Pastor Mark Driscoll” shows up on the page but the content not displayed is in the black borders above and is from the Mars Hill Church website. As noted above, Dean did not know who, if anyone, had given permission. In any case, it appears that Mark Driscoll has derived additional benefit from a church he no longer serves.

Earlier Dean told the Huffington Post that there is no relationship between Mark Driscoll and the church websites:

That domain is one that Mars Hill has had registered for quite some time but we never used. It has now been transferred to Mark Driscoll, and the domain registration to Mars Hill Fellowship is outdated (I believe it is now updated). The site is in no way affiliated with Mars Hill Church or Mars Hill Fellowship.

It is not affiliated but it was copied.
In light of the terms of use on Driscoll’s new site, the use of Mars Hill assets seems ironic.
Update: I should also have mentioned the terms of use on the Mars Hill website:

All sermons, articles, blog posts, text, graphics, user interfaces, visual interfaces, photographs, trademarks, logos, sounds, music, artwork and computer code (collectively, “Content”), including but not limited to the design, structure, selection, coordination, expression, “look and feel” and arrangement of such Content, contained on the Site is owned, controlled or licensed by or to Mars Hill Church, and is protected by trade dress, copyright, patent and trademark laws, and various other intellectual property rights and unfair competition laws.
Except as expressly provided in these Terms of Use, no part of the Site and no Content may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, publicly displayed, encoded, translated, transmitted or distributed in any way (including “mirroring”) to any other computer, server, Web site, television, video projector or other medium for publication or distribution or for any religious use or commercial enterprise, without Mars Hill’s express prior written consent.

*I originally called Justin Dean a spokesman for markdriscoll.org but that is not correct. I am sorry for the misunderstanding and incorrect information.