John MacArthur, Tony Perkins, Wayne Grudem, Others Call Evangelicals to COVID Denial

Last night Tony Perkins and Family Research Council hosted a COVID-19 denial, Trump campaign, and Amy Coney Barrett support rally at Jack Hibbs church in Chino Hills, CA. Called Freedom Sunday, Perkins also brought together pastors and others who supported opening churches without restriction, including masks and social distancing. No one was wearing masks or social distancing in the crowd.

John MacArthur spoke by video and again cited the same false information about the prevalence of COVID-19 in CA. He admitted in this address that some were ill in the beginning although he didn’t say they were hospitalized. There are others who have been ill but people are not talking at the church. He also says in the Freedom Sunday video that they made no announcement about reopening. However, that description doesn’t fit the statement leading up to their first real Sunday back in session July 26, 2020.

The false information given in the Freedom Sunday talk is what he is also using to try to get other churches to open without mitigation measures.

In this video, MacArthur again says that 1/100th of 1% of people have COVID in CA. However, the graphic on the screen says “.001” which would be .1% or one- tenth of a percent. In fact, 1/100th of 1% is .0001. MacArthur is asserting that only 4,000 Californians have COVID-19. The 16,584 COVID deaths in CA is a greater percentage of the population than MacArthur claims has the virus.

I still don’t know where MacArthur is getting his numbers. His PR firm won’t comment. As in the Freedom Sunday video., he clearly here refers to people who have COVID-19. As of today, 846,579 have had COVID-19 in CA which is 2.1% of the population. According to Worldometer, 399,491 Californians have active COVID cases. This is right at 1% of the population.

In his Freedom Sunday appearance, he spread the same false information without being corrected. It is obvious that there was no concern for objectivity or facts at this event. If conspiracy theories and false information will do the trick, then full speed ahead.

Eric “Punch and Run” Metaxas, Wayne Grudem, and Che Ahn also lent their Trump support and COVID-19 skepticism to the event.

Why should I or anyone trust anything being shared? No one with expertise in epidemiology was curating the information. Skepticism about the virus and support for Trump were the necessary criteria for speakers at this event. The speakers said they wanted freedom to worship Jesus, but what really came through was their desire to hold indoor political rallies in the name of religion.

 

108 thoughts on “John MacArthur, Tony Perkins, Wayne Grudem, Others Call Evangelicals to COVID Denial”

  1. Came upon another of your witch hunts. Have you spent any time researching the PCR test? Have you listened to the inventor of the PCR test say that it should not be used in the way it is being used, and also that is it is being used improperly causing false positives? Have you studied cycle thresholds? Or do you only focus on one aspect of every story and dig until you can find something to try to tear down a brother or sister in Christ? I began attending churches without masks and limited social distancing last June, went regularly to a prayer group with 70-year-olds who chose to meet, laid hands on people and prayed, and all of them are fine to this day, moved to AZ and have attended The Trinity Church and have visited Jack Hibbs’ church. I know a few people who got sick, but the only death I know of was someone who died during the spring shut down in April 2020. Your mission in life makes me sick.

  2. Came upon another of your witch hunts. Have you spent any time researching the PCR test? Have you listened to the inventor of the PCR test say that it should not be used in the way it is being used, and also that is it is being used improperly causing false positives? Have you studied cycle thresholds? Or do you only focus on one aspect of every story and dig until you can find something to try to tear down a brother or sister in Christ? I began attending churches without masks and limited social distancing last June, went regularly to a prayer group with 70-year-olds who chose to meet, laid hands on people and prayed, and all of them are fine to this day, moved to AZ and have attended The Trinity Church and have visited Jack Hibbs’ church. I know a few people who got sick, but the only death I know of was someone who died during the spring shut down in April 2020. Your mission in life makes me sick.

    2. “Your mission in life makes me sick.”

      Speaking of making you sick, I think the mission for the past year was to keep everyone alive and well. If you want to live recklessly and ignore the vaccine and covid precautions, at this point that’s your call. My family and friends in medicine are pretty well protected from your stupidity, so go ahead and be a statistic. Get us to herd immunity at light speed. Just don’t take anyone with you.

      p.s. Ignore the delta (and now, delta plus) variants at your own peril.

      1. Again, another person who completely ignores the collateral damage of depression, drug overdoses, suicides, children’s loss of development, etc, etc. because your reality is so politically shaped. I have listened to hours and hours of credible doctors and scientists who have dared to share science that doesn’t fit the narrative. Check out liberal Bret Weinstein interviewing Dr. Kory for instance. There were early treatments that worked that could have saved thousands.

        1. I agree with you regarding the possible ill-effects on children from the lock-down. But kids are resilient. My grand-children have bounced back remarkably well in the past couple months.

          Note that suicides in 2020 were actually DOWN by 5%.

          And, good old Dr. Pierre Kory and ivermectin. Now ask him why he quit/was released from two reputable medical institutions last year, and why he’s aligned himself with the quacks of the so-called “Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance,” (including the infamous Stella Immanuel, Doctor Demon Semen.) There is no proof that ivermectin does anything to fight covid, either prophylactically, or therapeutically. Folks in Brazil are taking the stuff by the handful, and dying like flies. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/06/15/1006198151/covid-pseudoscience-is-choking-brazil Pierre Kory’s chosen a strange little hill upon which to plant his flag, but this is where he’s staking his reputation. https://www.politico.eu/article/rise-and-fall-of-coronavirus-miracle-cure-ivermectin/

          And ivermectin will soon be overtaken by real anti-viral drugs. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/17/health/covid-pill-antiviral.html

          Good luck!

          1. Actually, that is surprising that suicide rates have gone down. I think one of the problems that affected my perception in this case, and has affected America‘s perception in other cases, is the amplification of individual stories of suffering, whether suicide or Covid or other. When individual stories are put in front of us repeatedly, they skew our perspective. Seeing young people outside walking around alone or driving with a mask shows me that media has done that to them, making them think they are as at risk of dying outside as an elderly sick person in a nursing home.
            But this appears to be true:
            “While suicides fell by 5 percent last year, rates of anxiety and depression surged, as did the number of overdose deaths throughout the coronavirus pandemic, which has spurred endless lockdowns and upended modern life for months on end.
            According to provisional mortality data from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics published in March, suicides fell from more than 47,500 in 2019 to less than 45,000 in 2020 beating out bleak predictions cast by alarming spikes in anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation.”

          3. And what is your criteria for determining that the news sources are “biased” but not this video?

          4. And what is your criteria for determining that the news sources are “biased” but not this video?

          5. DoctorDJ is citing biased news sources. I am saying listen to doctors/scientists and decide if what they are saying is credible. He is calling qualified front line experienced medical professionals quacks. But when you listen and evaluate they are clearly not quacks. Even if someone listens and disagrees, at least have an intelligent response. His comments are superficial and disingenuous.

          6. I find your comments (and “sources”) far more superficial and disingenuous than DoctorDJ.

            You show little ability to evaluate reliability of sources beyond “do they say what I want to hear”

          8. No I’m not wasting 3 hours of my time. If these guys had any proof of their claims you’d be able to provide it.

          9. It is three scientists talking about all the proof. You could start with 15 minutes. No, I am not going to dig through scientific journals, which you would ignore anyway.
            I did not claim three deaths, I posted an article from the New York Times that reported nine states suspended giving the vaccine because of three deaths. Then the whole program was halted later. Maybe I forgot to cite it.

            https://www.nytimes.com/1976/10/13/archives/swine-flu-prograrm-is-halted-in-9-states-as-3-die-after-shots.html

            Like I said, it’s useless because we both think our sources, or logic, are right. Again best wishes for health and peace. Goodbye.

          10. “I did not claim three deaths”

            This is what you said:

            “I just found out that after millions of shots in the 1970s for swine flu, the program was stopped because of 3 deaths.”

            You used this claim as a justification for stopping the covid vaccine. Your source (the NYT article) said the program was being suspended (not stopped). Even misunderstanding what the article was saying, anyone with any sense would have realized a nationwide vaccine program wouldn’t have been stopped because of 3 deaths. There would have had to be more to the story. And there is. You just didn’t want to bother looking because that wouldn’t fit your narrative.

            I suspect the same is true for your podcast. Which is why I’m not going to waste my time listening to 3 hours of it. If they have actual data or peer-reviewed science to support their opinions then feel free to post that info.

  3. I dont care what the numbers are. The church needs to be open to comfort & handle the needs of their people. They are ESSENTIAL. Government needs to get out of their way & stop trying to manage them as they do in China. This is AMERICA.

  4. Fortunately, I learned long ago not to trust most of the self-important, ignorant men pushing this nonsense.

    Unfortunately, not all believers have. And I’m not the one who’ll decide whether any of the evangelical churches in the U.S. will re-open, or in what fashion.

  5. Speaking of COVID…Have any of you received a religious flyer in the mail with the title “After COVID, What Next?” I just got one today.

  6. Amazing how this gets you upset! Give him some grace on the math, the general message on COVID relative to death has been blown out of proportion. The CDC announced survival rates in September and no one listens. CDC Data Shows High Virus Survival Rate: 99%-Plus for Ages 69 and Younger, 94.6% for Older. Why attack what these men are saying. More better a question is where will you be when your life ends – “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

    1. “Why attack what these men are saying.”

      Because what they are saying is wrong and misleading. And they are using it to justify their own irresponsible behaviour.

      1. I trust people like Tony Perkins a heck of a lot more than Warren Throckmorton.

        1. Because you clearly are only interested in hearing what you WANT to hear, rather than what you NEED to hear.

          1. Right back at ya. But actually I want the truth whether it’s good bad or ugly. It’s the truth that sets us free. Tony Perkins fights for good, for important values, and part of that is exposing things. Throckmorton as far as I can see on these articles is publicly trying to tear people down. And it would make more sense if it was even in his field of psychology instead of going after historians and pastors and such.

    3. The typical evangelical answer – how and why people die doesn’t matter as long as their souls are saved. Well, Jesus said a lot more about caring for the poor than He did about heaven and hell – in fact, He strongly hinted that HOW we treat the poor (and the sick) will determine which place we end up. And I don’t think He’ll accept equivocations about how this virus “isn’t that bad”.

    4. Lumping everyone under 70 into the same age group is simply dishonest. The “99%-plus” results is hopelessly skewed by the fact that young people (under 40), who have very little chance of dying from a Covid-19 infection, are also considerably more likely to be infected by Covid-19 in the first place.

      When you break down the numbers into age groups that actually make sense, you will see (using the CDC numbers) that the risk of death are significantly higher for older people, starting around the age of 50:

      2% - 50-to-64
      8% - 65-to-74
      18% - 75-to-84
      28% - 85 or older

      Note that church congregations skew older too, with 50% over 50 vs 34% for the general population, therefore the risks of death are considerably higher than MacArthur and the others are claiming.

      Personally, I have two parents who are 90 years old, and it’s hard enough keeping them safe without all this ridiculous misinformation going around. As for myself, a 1 in 50 chance of dying from a Covid-19 infection doesn’t strike me as a risk worth taking, especially when it’s so easy limit the risk of infection by proper social distancing and mask wearing.

      Finally, a new study was published today which, once again, shows that we are undercounting the number of deaths from the pandemic by as much as one third. The study found 225,000 excess deaths in the USA in the first five months of the pandemic, when only 150,000 deaths were directly attributed to Covid-19. That was up to the start of August. If the trend remains the same, the true death toll from Covid-19 is already over 300,000 Americans.

      Somehow I doubt that little statistic will be showing up in MacArthur’s sermons anytime soon.

      1. It is also important to remember that age is not the only risk factor , if you have any of several ailments (diabetes, asthma, other respiratory aliments) your risk of dying also increases significantly.

        1. And the rest of the story. What about the risk factors to those who killed themselves, from children even 11 years old and up because of excessive lockdowns and closing schools? Have you heard their stories? I have. What about the about 5000 people who never heard about how effective ivermectin and HCQ are for early treatment and took the shot and died?

        2. And the rest of the story. What about the risk factors to those who killed themselves, from children even 11 years old and up because of excessive lockdowns and closing schools? Have you heard their stories? I have. What about the about 5000 people who never heard about how effective ivermectin and HCQ are for early treatment and took the shot and died?

          1. Stories, yes heard the stories. haven’t actually seen any real data on suicides due to the lock-downs.

            I have no idea what you are talking about regarding ivermection and HCQ.

          2. Stories, yes heard the stories. haven’t actually seen any real data on suicides due to the lock-downs.

            I have no idea what you are talking about regarding ivermection and HCQ.

          3. That is so sad. Search on youtube and watch doctors talk about these effective early treatments. Watch Bret Weinstein talk to Dr. Pierre Kory. Try to find the Senate hearing from January I think where several doctors testified about their extensive experience. It has been blocked on some sites. Anecdotally, a friend of ours who works with Ivermectin in the farming industry told us about its effectiveness many months ago and when his college son was sent home after testing positive, his whole family took it and no one else got sick.

          7. I would never pay to read the Times. The counterpart to Breitbart. Any other sources not behind a paywall?

          9. Here is the Weinstein/Kory podcast. I like using Bret Weinstein, who was a professor at Evergreen and a liberal so I can’t be accused of fake news, as if the New York Times is credible anymore. Dr. Kory has been excoriated by Democrats as having political motives, particularly by the lead Democrat in the Senate hearing, even though he is a lifelong Democrat.
            https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/covid-ivermectin-crime-century-darkhorse-podcast-pierre/id1471581521?i=1000523859023

          11. From cdc.gov.
            “Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 318 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through June 21, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,479 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.”
            And it’s funny how many sites deny the link between the shot and the person dying whereas with Covid people could die from a motorcycle accident or a gunshot or Stage 4 cancer and it be attributed to/marked as Covid as reported by law enforcement and hospital employees. It is sad that left and right leaning news sources tell us what they want us to know and hide what they choose instead of just giving us the facts.
            https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

          12. “Why is that?”

            because it is a lie that people dying from motorcycle accidents are being reported as covid deaths.

            From your own source(emphasis in original):

            “COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.“

          13. Of course. They are all (Fauci, govt agencies, Gates Foundation, Facebook as indicated by how many times it was revealed that Fauci was emailing with Zuckerburg, are all in on vaccines. Who is profiting? Why are doctors being censored and fired? Since when is there corporate control of medicine – you must treat this way and not that? That is why people get a second opinion , because doctors operate independently. Now there is a monolithic voice screaming “Get Vaccinated”, down to 12! With unanswered questions about fertility, with evidence showing the spike proteins don’t stay in the shoulder as intended but go throughout the body and gather at points like the ovaries. And is causing heart inflammation in younger people, with hospitalizations. Will it affect the ability to have babies? Not a chance to take when young people are at a very low risk from Covid and the US is doing much better now.
            And how do you know other causes of death were not reported as Covid? There were stories/testimonies all over the place about people being instructed to mark deaths as Covid. Never found absolute proof that hospitals were being paid more for Covid cases/deaths but there were many of those stories as well.

          15. I listen to hours of doctors and scientists and try to research issues. No, I can’t prove everything. Dismissing all of it is intellectual dishonesty.

          17. The same could be said of you. That is why these comment sections are useless. Nobody believes anything the other people are posting, even if it is based in fact. We are watching two movies on the same screen. We have our sources and you have yours. And we both think they are right.

          19. You scoffed at there being that many deaths. “Where are you getting that bull roar?” I said the CDC reported over 5,000 reported deaths following vaccination. And you ignored it. Is over 5,000, most of which were not at a threat of dying from COVID, really safe and effective. For elderly and vulnerable the risk/benefit is definitely worth it. For others, not so clear.

          20. I didn’t scoff at anything. Nor did I say what you quoted. Further you are misrepresenting what the CDC said. They did not say those deaths were CAUSED by the vaccination only that they occurred. Even if all those deaths were due to a vaccine allergy, you would still be 1000 times more likely to die from covid than from the vaccine.

          22. Sorry, that was DoctorDJ above that said that. There has been too much broad brushing, which is why young people are walking around outside alone with masks on. Vaccine deaths have happened in young people that were not at risk for death for Covid. I watched a video of a thirty something who was in the hospital and couldn’t walk after her vaccine. Maybe if you were 80 and sick you would 1000 times more likely to die from the virus. Seems like people were so sure that everyone was dying of Covid, but now doubt every death that happens after somebody gets the vaccine.

          24. Did this doctor really die of natural causes after the shot?
            https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/local-doctor-who-passed-away-after-vaccine-shot-died-of-natural-causes-medical-examiner/2424281/
            Would this 36 year old doctor be alive if he hadn’t gotten the shot?
            https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/doctor-dies-second-dose-covid-vaccine/
            Don’t you wonder why we don’t know what the adverse reaction and death numbers from the vaccine are? We have had a daily count for over a year for Covid deaths, no matter if it was from Covid or with Covid. Don’t we have a right to know that information before getting the shot? Why is info withheld and censored? I know it makes me less trustful the longer they push the vaccine without information, and suppress any questioning of it. In about 150 million flu shots, there are about 100 to 200 deaths. What if the Covid number really is in the 1000s for a similar number of shots.
            Update: after doing even more research, I just found out that after millions of shots in the 1970s for swine flu, the program was stopped because of 3 deaths. I know I had researched other vaccines that were being worked on and halted for various reasons and yet now, many injuries and deaths are reported and crickets. Something is going on. I just watched The Big Short about the corruption and the 2008 housing market crash and I get the same feeling with this situation.

          25. “Did this doctor really die of natural causes after the shot?”

            He likely died from heart failure caused by ITP. According to the article there is not enough evidence to know if the vaccine had anything to do with his death. However, what if it did? What if it was conclusively proved he wouldn’t have died if he didn’t take the vaccine. What do you think that would prove?

            Regarding swine flu.

            How many people contracted swine flu in the 1970s?
            How many people died from it or had any serious long-term health problems?

            I’m not sure what you think you are proving, but what you are proving is that you have no idea what you are talking about.

          26. I had to look up ITP. Is this the right thing? It doesn’t sound serious.
            “Immune thrombocytopenia (ITP) is a disorder that can lead to easy or excessive bruising and bleeding. The bleeding results from unusually low levels of platelets — the cells that help blood clot. Formerly known as idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, ITP can cause purple bruises, as well as tiny reddish-purple dots that look like a rash.
            Children may develop ITP after a viral infection and usually recover fully without treatment. In adults, the disorder is often long term.
            If you don’t have signs of bleeding and your platelet count isn’t too low, you may not need any treatment. If your symptoms are more severe, treatment may include medications to boost your platelet count or surgery to remove your spleen.”

            Are you looking at any of these stories?
            https://youtu.be/zaJA1xdRHnE

            About the swine flu, the point had nothing to do with cases of swine flu, but the vaccine program being halted for many fewer deaths than these vaccines.

          27. “I had to look up ITP. Is this the right thing? It doesn’t sound serious.”

            That is correct, in general it isn’t very serious, however in rare cases it can be fatal. Which is what happened in Michael’s case.

            Did the vaccine have anything to do with his death, maybe, there is no conclusive evidence. However, once again you avoided my question.

            If it did contribute to his death, what do you think that proves?

            “but the vaccine program being halted for many fewer deaths than these vaccines”

            And once again, if you had any clue about what you are talking about, you would know that the swine flu vaccine in the 1970s wasn’t halted simply because of those deaths.

          28. As I research the 1976 vaccine program ending, I see concern about a condition and deaths resulting from the swine flu vaccine and the fact that the virus didn’t spread. Since you say I don’t have a clue, what am I missing?
            “In 1976, concerns in the United States about a possible influenza pandemic involving a virus similar to the deadly 1918 pandemic strain resulted in a large-scale vaccination program for the entire country. Approximately 45 million people were vaccinated in 10 weeks with what became known as the “swine flu vaccine” [16]. The US government abruptly stopped the vaccination program when no swine flu cases were detected outside the military base where the disease originated and when an unexpectedly high number of cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome were reported in vaccinated individuals. The vaccine was estimated to have caused approximately one Guillain-Barré syndrome case per 100,000 persons vaccinated [17], resulting in 53 deaths [18]. As a result of the association between the 1976 swine flu vaccine and Guillain-Barré syndrome, this condition is closely monitored every influenza season as part of the influenza vaccine safety monitoring in the United States.“

          29. So it was 53 deaths not 3 deaths as you originally claimed and more importantly the high rate of GB syndrome it was causing.

            Another part you are missing (because you again ignored my question) :

            How many people died from swine flew in the 1970s?

          30. I am not seeing my response where I said I was sorry, that I was responding to what DoctorDJ wrote about scoffing. Hopefully you got that one.
            The amount of vaccine injuries and deaths proves that this vaccine was not tested enough, that it is being tested on the general population without their knowledge under the false pretense that they are safe. We also don’t know the long term effects, the possibility of ADE in the future, the possibility of infertility in the future or other effects. And the lack of reporting of these injuries and deaths shows something sinister is going on.

            About the swine flu vaccines, the first article to come up was from the NYT:
            WASHINGTON, Oct. 12—Swine flu vaccination programs in nine states and in Pittsburgh and its suburbs were suspended today, two weeks after they began nationally, after the deaths of three elderly persons who received the vaccine yesterday at a clinic in Pittsburgh.
            (1976)

          31. No the 5000 deaths are NOT a reason to stop the vaccine. because:

            a) it is unknown how many of those deaths had anything to do with the vaccine

            b) even if those deaths were due to the vaccine you would still be 1000 times less likely to die from the vaccine than from covid-19.

  7. o/t: To add to the long list of John MacArthur’s loathsome actions, he’s also said: ” ‘God intended it [Earth] as a disposable planet.’”

    [Paul Braterman, Professor Emeritus in Chemistry, University of Glasgow writes…] meet the US pastor preaching climate change denial. …[MacArthur’s preaching] is the most complete compilation of unsound arguments, factual errors and misleading analogies as I have seen in discussions of this subject.

    https://theconversation.com/god-intended-it-as-a-disposable-planet-meet-the-us-pastor-preaching-climate-change-denial-147712
    via
    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/10/14/covid-denying-pastor-denies-climate-change-god-gave-us-a-disposable-planet/

  8. It is obvious that there was no concern for objectivity or facts at this event.

    What else could one expect? They’re religious leaders. Concern for objectivity or facts would mean the end of religion as we know it.

  9. I don’t get it. How is pretending that it isn’t happening, so they don’t have to do anything about it, going to make it better? Do they really expect that defying orders from the state in the name of religion is going to make it go away, or make them immune? All it will do is increase their chances of getting sick. This bunch of “religious” leaders should be ashamed of themselves–or in jail.

    1. A local mega church in Santa Clara finally went to outdoor services after racking up over $100,000 in fines.

    2. It allows them to continue to LARP their fantasy that they are “the persecuted faithful”.

  10. This is my first time posting here. These folks are a danger to the human race. They don’t care how many people die. Just, keep those coffers full.

  11. These charlatans need their members to keep the cash flow going- and be brainwashed on a weekly basis in order to distract from any real world concerns about trump and his dystopian plans for the USA because abortion….the nomination of Amy Cloney Bork-ette, and the implied theocratic outcome of a conservative autocracy.

  12. I see then, The Liar Tony Perkins continues to uphold his reputation as The Liar Tony Perkins.
    Meanwhile, the Priest and Deacon of my parish church are struggling to find a way to minister to shut ins, whilst still keeping everyone safe.

  13. These U.S. White Nationalist Evangelicals are just like Jesus, who refused to speak outdoors and demanded a tax-free million-dollar auditorium complete with stage musicians, sound technicians, camera crew, and additional support staff all catering to his self-serving arrogance.

    John MacArthur’s gospel of self-worship is on full display yet again.

  14. Per John MacArthur’s style there’s a Greek word for what these dolts are doing and it’s Idiotes

  16. Warren, is there anything new regarding MacArthur’s church and the supposed loss of lease on the county-owned parking lot?

    1. While their map on their website indicates they still have the lot, a perusal of the most recent weekly bulletin indicates the following:

      1) People can park in the synagogue lot to the east of the church, if they’re out by 1 pm.
      2) Please don’t park in the neighborhood unless unavoidable.

      These notices started appearing with September 27th’s bulletin.

  17. John MacArthur is deliberately and arrogantly ignorant of public health, epidemiology, virology, and science-based medicine. But you cannot convince a know-it-all. Will he receive all the “best treatments” if he gets COVID-19?

        1. As Warren already pointed out in his post: .001 is .1% (or 1/10 of a percent) NOT 1/100th of a percent.

          Basic math most 5th or 6th graders understand.

          1. What’s this? 0.0004147. (16,588/40,000,000) The death (God rest their
            souls) rate “from Covid-19” as 10/13…. (Whatever that means…did
            they die OF Covid, or die WITH Covid….) Basic math most 5th or
            6th graders understand should NOT lead to an endless total shutdown of a
            state with a population of 40,000,000+ This is the point. .0004% (or
            4/100 of a percent).

          2. Arguing over percentages is a fools errand. The point is, it’s deadlier than the flu, contagious, and there is yet no vaccine. Everyone needs to put on their damn masks.

          3. And if we do, ( I do, my family & friends do…) can we reopen? Even the WHO is finally figuring it out:

            “The World Health Organization has warned leaders against relying on
            COVID-19 lockdowns to tackle outbreaks — after previously saying
            countries should be careful how quickly they reopen.

            WHO envoy Dr. David Nabarro said such restrictive measures should only be treated as a last resort, the British magazine the Spectator reported in a video interview.

            ‘We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.'” October 11, 2020

          4. Lockdowns are necessary to halt community spread. Then widespread mask use can be effective. But unless/until a critical mass of people wear their masks, rolling lockdowns are required to keep the bug from getting totally out of control.

          5. WHO is referring to countries with competent, responsible leadership. so the US isn’t included in their statement. However, hopefully by Jan. the US WILL have competent leadership again.

          6. You use several tools. A lockdown (of varying degrees and no where in the US has had a lockdown in its most severe form) is most useful in giving time while other measures are brought to bear. The other measures include frequent testing and quarantining of those who test positive, quarantining of those in contact with those who test positive for 14 days (or maybe more) with testing several times during that period, physical distancing, masks, sufficient staff and equipment including PPE to treat the people who need treatment (while also treating people with other ills). To do the frequent testing you need facilities to do the test analyses and a way of doing the frequent testing; to do the contact tracing you need to have sufficient people to ask the questions (and the more cases, the more people). Those in quarantine or self-isolation must be provided with necessities so they don’t need to break quarantine or starve.
            I was reading an LA Times article about California prisons. Some of the prison factories are making masks and other equipment to fight the epidemic; many of the the workers are proud to be doing their bit. However they weren’t initially issued the masks to protect each other despite being in a crowded situation and they weren’t allowed to self-isolate if exposed to Covid-19 without receiving a write up (which in turn means longer to wait for release) or threat of losing their prison job. The result was outbreaks of Covid-19 in the state prison system. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/california-prison-factories-inmates-covid-19

          7. So you are pointing out that the number of *deaths* from COVID in CA is actually >4X what Macarthur keeps saying is the “rate of COVID” in CA?

          8. That (0.0004147) is a misleading statistic. The “death rate” (i.e. the number of deaths per INFECTION, not total population) of covid-19 in CA is actually just under 2%. the death count means the covid-19 infection was a contributing factor to your death (i.e. if you had NOT contracted covid-19, you wouldn’t have died).

            For the population of CA. that means there is a potential of over 700,000 deaths IN CA ALONE. That does in fact warrant the shutdowns. Further these shutdowns are not “endless” they are based on current infection rates. Many states have started opening up to some degree as the infection rates declined. If Trump hadn’t turned mask wearing (and other measures to mitigate the spread) into a “political statement” and religious “leaders” like MacArthur showed common decency for his fellow humans rather than worrying about getting people in the seats (and donations I assume), these infection rates would probably be much lower.

          9. Sorry Ken, with all due respect, it is NOT a misleading statistic, because the entire population of CA (40,000,000+) is locked down under the supposition that ALL of us have an equal chance of contracting and dying from the virus. That’s everyone in CA from 1 to 100 years old. We know that’s faulty reasoning. That’s how this statewide, illogical lockdown is being approached. You don’t mention that approx. half of the deaths in here in CA are reported in nursing homes (a population that can be protected). And as far as MacArthur and his church, GCC go, can you point to ANY studies/stats/reporting/whatever…to it how has contributed to “the spread” of the virus. Don’t know where you live, but I live here in SoCal, and everyday we have news stories of mass demonstrations happening here in L.A. (Armenian, BLM, etc). Don’t tell me they have nothing to do w/ “the spread.”

          10. “ALL of us have an equal chance of contracting and dying from the virus.”

            I never claimed everyone had an “equal chance” of dying from covid-19. What I said was that based on the current data, there was a potential that 700,000 people in CA could die from it (assuming no measures to mitigate the spread are taken i.e. lockdowns, wearing masks, social distancing etc).

            You are correct the probability of dying from covid-19 can vary depending on different factors (age being just one of them). Now, if you have a better break-down of the deaths from covid-19 that allows for examining those factors by all mean present them. However, you are incorrect with your claim that “half of the deaths in CA are reported from nursing homes”. I suspect you are using old information. From the LA Times Sept. 29, 2020

            So far, more than 5,630 residents and staff at skilled nursing facilities in the state have died from COVID-19 — 36% of California’s fatalities from the coronavirus.

            I never claimed outdoor mass demonstrations don’t spread covid-19. I think they are a bad idea and I wouldn’t attend such a gathering. However, based on the medical reports, congregating indoors is much worse than congregating outdoors. Which is why outdoor church services are allowed, but indoor services are not.

          11. Ken, my statement, “ALL of us have an equal chance of contracting and dying from the virus.”was not directed at anything you said. I am asserting that it is the faulty supposition that our Gov. Newsom is using to rationalize his draconian, one size fits all (and getting worse by the week, i.e. the latest decree Oct. 9, 2020 on family gatherings-check it out at cdph.ca.gov) endless lockdowns. He has even “killed” Disneyland for goodness sake!!! He offers no logical, and/or true scientific reasons for doing what he is doing. His press conferences sound more and more like the word-salad ramblings of a madman. If you lived here, you would get the sense of the anti-Newsom sentiment that is growing day by day here (regardless of whatever fake polls one might try to cite). As for all that I’ve read on this board, I’ve not seen any real, thoughtful rationale as why our state should be locked for much longer. What I see is mostly anti-MacArthur sentiment, and that is fine. I have yet to see any actual data regarding the impact his church has had on the spread of the virus so far. Cheers!

          12. And you are using the claim that not everyone has an equal chance of dying from covid-19 to misrepresent the seriousness of this virus. For example you are ignoring the fact that there are other serious outcomes besides death that can occur from contracting covid-19, that do effect younger people.

            Newsom didn’t “kill” disneyland. disney is still there and it will reopen. However, this kind of hyperbole doesn’t show you to be someone who is rationally thinking about the situation. Rather someone who doesn’t like the restrictions (and/or Newsom)

            Nor is Newsom’s plan “one-size fits all.” If you had bothered to actually read your own source you would see there is a blueprint for a Safer Economy while a bit generic, it does talk about “criteria for loosening and tightening restrictions on activities.”

            Seems you are less interested in actually discussing the lockdowns than you are in complaining about them and Newsom and looking for anything to justify those complaints rather than taking a rational look at the facts.

            finally, you are correct, this post (and several others on Warren’s blog) is about MacArthur’s (and other evangelical “leaders”) arrogance in thinking the laws don’t apply to him and the potential danger he is putting others in because of that.

          13. MacArthur’s goofy number games refer to those with COVID-19, not those who have sadly died of it.

            In any case, what does “00.001” (see photo above) mean?!

            These people are talking nonsense, GT. You know it as well as the rest of us. (Of course there should be careful thought about how the problem is addressed, but to suggest that there isn’t a problem, or that the problem is far smaller than it really is, is pure madness.)

          14. I’m confused. Is this a home-grown conspiracy fueled by libtards or a world-wide conspiracy? Italy really hoodwinked its population into a terrified isolation and manufactured overwhelming suffering and death for national broadcast. Take a look at the measures being taken today in Europe.

            https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-netherlands-italy-france-czech-republic-987993953a51f39a861c0f481c0e38f8

            Yet here we are, discouraging our most malleable and enthusiastically ignorant population to forego the very minimum courtesies of wearing a cloth mask when around others and keeping a respectful distance. This is far less than taking a meal to a family in need. Being ignorant *and* obstinate seems to be the new (American) Evangelical version of righteousness.

            The math:

            16,760 deaths/39.5 million people = 424/million = 424/1,000,000 =.00042 = .04%
            This means nearly 1 Californian in 200 dies of/with Covid. That’s huge.

          15. the calculation you used isn’t the correct one to use. The reason it is a problem is that the pop. of CA is a constant (over the short period of time) while the number of deaths is monotonically increasing. I.e. if you used the deaths from last month your percentage would be lower, and next month it will sadly be higher.

            A better (although not perfect) number to use is the death rate: # of deaths/# of infections. which for CA is ~1.9%. Nationwide it is ~2.7%. Now this number has actually gone down since Feb/Mar (where it was between 4-6%), because of more widespread testing (which shows more people surviving it) and better treatments for the disease. Hopefully it will continue to go down, but I think it is leveling off and 2% is a fairly accurate number to use.

          16. Thanks. I have read that several times but I think my brain followed the reasoning I was tracking at the moment.

            Right now I’m trying to reconcile the “excess deaths” data since that’s the number the WH is now using to describe the death rate. The graphics the CDC produces are used by the right to prove that it’s much lower than thought (it does appear that there are very few excess deaths for several months since March) but the left offers a higher count, also with CDC data. If you have any insight or can direct me to a good source, please do!

          17. The “excess deaths” measure isn’t a good one because the lock-downs are skewing the results. Since March, when the lock-downs started, the normal amount of deaths due to car crashes, accidents, crime etc, will be lower, thus the “normal deaths” for those months will be lower. the only proper way to use “excess deaths” since March would be to factor out all the deaths that would not be related to covid-19.

            Johns Hopkins keeps running totals of infections and deaths, world wide . CNN has a convenient US summary of the Johns Hopkins data. Also the CDC has historical data by state.

            Ideally, you should use the data from April or May onwards to calculate the death rate (prior to that you can use the “excess deaths” to estimate covid deaths, but not infections). However, that is a LOT of data to go through and collate. I just used the totals and assume the Jan-Mar data is noise in the system.

            another note, the data you need depends on the question you are asking: how many people have died from covid-19? what is the potential number of deaths? what is the survival/death rate of covid-19? how many people died before the lockdowns? etc.

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