John MacArthur Doubles Down on No Pandemic Claim

In his sermon today at Grace Community Church, pastor John MacArthur told his congregation that his claim last week that there is no COVID-19 pandemic was not made off the cuff. He said again that by the CDC definition of a pandemic there is no pandemic. Watch:

MacArthur is making yet another common mistake by referring to the number of COVID-19 cases as compared to the population of California. This is not how epidemiologists think about the lethality of a disease. You compare the number of deaths to the number of cases to get the mortality rate.

MacArthur said that the definition of a pandemic is that “1 to 3% of the people die.” By his definition of a pandemic (1 to 3% of the population), the Spanish Flu epidemic would not have counted as such because less than one percent of the American population died. According to the CDC website, 675,000 Americans died during the 1918-1919 season. With a population of 104.5-million in 1919, well under 1% died (.65%).

MacArthur also said the number of people who have COVID in California is “one hundredth of one percent out of 40 million. That’s not a death statistic, that’s a COVID statistic.” Currently, the number of cases in CA stands at 735,742. Given the population of just less than 40-million people in CA, the percentage of the population with a positive COVID diagnosis is a little over 1.8%. Even if the calculation used active cases (373,175), the percentage is .94% or almost 1%.

I need to research this a bit more but so far the only definition on the CDC website of a pandemic I found is this one:

Pandemic refers to an epidemic that has spread over several countries or continents, usually affecting a large number of people. Epidemics occur when an agent and susceptible hosts are present in adequate numbers, and the agent can be effectively conveyed from a source to the susceptible hosts.

MacArthur also said that Grace is the only church in CA allowed to meet indoors. I question that interpretation. The court has declined to issue a court order to require Grace to comply with L.A. County’s Health Order but has told L.A. County that the County may enforce the Health Order forbidding indoor meeting. L.A. County has chosen not to enforce the order.

In any case, the court is set to rule this week on the injunction with L.A. County as the plaintiff  in the case.

242 thoughts on “John MacArthur Doubles Down on No Pandemic Claim”

  1. “This is not how epidemiologists think about the lethality of a disease.You compare the number of deaths to the number of cases to get the mortality rate.” The problem with that thinking is that IT IS 40 MILLION people who are locked down because they MIGHT get the virus, and/or spread it, and are in “danger” of dying. That’s the rationale we are being fed by Newsom now that we are WAY PAST “flattening the curve.” (Moved goalposts). So, the relatively low percentage of the actual “infected” population compared to the actual “uninfected” population of the state IS relevant to the discussion as to why the lockdown should continue. If this ratio is so unbalanced: (2% to 98%) why should the lockdown continue? “Currently, the number of cases in CA stands at 735,742.
    Given the population of just less than 40-million people in CA, the
    percentage of the population with a positive COVID diagnosis is a little
    over 1.8%. Even if the calculation used active cases (373,175), the percentage is .94% or almost 1%.” That’s it??? That’s all??? The life of California is being destroyed over this???

  2. L. A. County Issues $1,000 Fine to COVID-Denying Church Over Sign Violations
    https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/09/10/l-a-county-issues-1000-fine-to-covid-denying-church-over-sign-violations/

    …and I can’t believe I’m linking to this blowhard:
    DEVELOPING STORY: Los Angeles County has slapped Grace Community Church with a $1,000 fine for violating a China Virus sign ordinance.
    https://www.toddstarnes.com/faith/los-angeles-fines-grace-community-church-1000-for-sign-violation/

  3. On another unrelated issue….

    I have to wonder if Grace Community Church will continue to exist after MacArthur is gone. I perceive that the success of his church depends on his presence and leadership there.

    His church may very go the way of Mars Hill in Seattle some day.

      1. MacArthur has been around long enough to not fall due to any one of those. My guess is he will croak due to COVID-19.

      2. MacArthur has been around long enough to not fall due to any one of those. My guess is he will croak due to COVID-19.

      3. It has been well known that most of MacArthur’s books are nothing more than his sermons in print form edited by Phil Johnson.

    1. MacArthur’s ministries will likely survive in some shape or form — it’s too rich a gravy train for the family to throw it away. I guess at least one of his sons can be ruled out since he’s been arrested for fraud, but that leaves three other kids, and I note that most of GCC’s pastors are also elders (including himself) which seem dubious (elders are supposed to be able to hold church leadership accountable) so he might be grooming someone to take over.

      The church itself might become more low profile, with the media ministries in the hands of the MacArthur family to continue to profit from. Heck, there’s several radio ministries that are still recycling messages from pastors and evangelists who died decades ago.

      So, yeah, there’s little it’s all going to survive, though without a high profile leader, it might retreat from the limelight somewhat.

      1. The existence of his church is more in question as opposed to his ministry (Radio, TV books ect)

        After his death his sermons will no doubt be broadcast on radio after the ubiquitous Thru the Bible with J Vernon McGee

  4. Evangelical reporter Julie Roys may have a different story brewing that involves John MacArthur. Nothing related to the current scandal, it sounds like she’s writing another story on the lack of financial accountability within the evangelical leadership, specifically to do with the lack of disclosure of salaries and compensation of pastors who redistribute materials created as part of their day job — i.e. books, videos, lesson plans etc. — materials that in any other job would belong to the employer, not the employee.

    At the end of the second part of her interview with Benny Hinn’s nephew, she calls out John MacArthur’s “Grace To You” business, and how it used to be a non-profit, so people could easily see how much MacArthur earned from that business ($250k in 2015) but was converted into a church in 2016 so they no longer have to publish their highest paid earners, hiding MacArthur’s income from scrutiny.

    1. Interesting. Any mismanagement of John MacArthur’s “(White) Grace To (White) You” is perhaps unsurprising given the wide-scale mismanagement of The Master’s University, which remains on probation and still at risk of having its accreditation revoked.

      So much for July Roys to investigate: unethical and possibly illegal financial practices at Master’s University leading to MacArthur’s forced departure as President, Ken Starr’s rape-enabling leadership leading to his ousting as President of Baylor University, the Dream Center defrauding the U.S. Department of Education, young men on Liberty University’s payroll providing sexual favors for the recently ousted President and his wife…

      1. “young men on Liberty University’s payroll providing sexual favors for the recently ousted President and his wife…” And your source?

        (Just for the record, I am as glad as anyone that Jerry Jr. (and his family) is (sort of, hopefully, eventually) gone from Liberty U, but you really should have evidence to back up accusations of this magnitude.)

        1. So Liberty University was a stable providing many a young bull for the wife to ride.

          Maybe they can offer a course on zoology, “When Cougars Ride Bulls.”

        2. So Liberty University was a stable providing many a young bull for the wife to ride.

          Maybe they can offer a course on zoology, “When Cougars Ride Bulls.”

    2. This has been a trend over the last several years with Evangelical non-profits. They’ve gone to being churches so they don’t have to file public tax returns. Examples: Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Focus on the Family. This needs to be fixed in the law because it’s ridiculous.

    3. Not to mention (Unless this matter has been resolved) both his University and Seminary are presently under under academic accreditation probation.

      1. Big K,

        While you are at it, why don’t get COVID and die too, since I am sure you don’t wear a mask. Then I can put you and MacArthur in for Darwin Award nominations, just like I did for your buddy Herman Cain.

        1. You make a lot of stupid assumptions for someone who can write well. Not that odd I guess really.

    1. I’m not with the “dying” part… but yeah in some sense I hope they get it… but I don’t wish their death.

  5. I applaud John MacArthur for his stand. It is frustrating to see the majority of our country essentially becoming lemmings

      1. “In a democracy where only 1% of the people vote, half a percent plus on is a Majority. And any hate group can mobilize half a percent of True Believers.”
        — GURPS Cyberpunk sourcebook

        1. I used to have that sourcebook (along with many other GURPS supplements). The GURPS rules, game mechanics, character attributes and generation were a too simplistic IMHO compared to HERO/Champions but their sourcebooks were excellent references. Used them all over the place when I was running campaigns.

        2. I used to have that sourcebook (along with many other GURPS supplements). The GURPS rules, game mechanics, character attributes and generation were a too simplistic IMHO compared to HERO/Champions but their sourcebooks were excellent references. Used them all over the place when I was running campaigns.

          1. I don’t think anyone I knew actually ran GURPS.
            But their sourcebooks were treasure troves of information.

            Ready for Turner Diaries: The Live Role-Playing Game starting this coming Election Day?

          2. Hehe. Sure.

            You are right about GURPS. I didn’t know anyone who ran it either but they used their sourcebooks for every gaming system except GURPS.

            One thing I regret not running was a 1930’s era campaign, along the lines of Indiana Jones type stuff but with more of a real world “ancient” mystery that would have changed the course of history. The basic premise is based upon this fact: Oil was not discovered in Libya until after WWII. The whole African Campaign in WWII dealt with the efforts of the Germany to reach Cairo and to reach the oil fields of the Middle East. Ironically much of the combat took place in Libya near completely unknown oil fields. The mystery was a fictional ancient location that would have ultimately pointed to these oil fields in Libya to be discovered 20 to 30 years earlier.

          3. One thing I regret not running was a 1930’s era campaign, along the lines of Indiana Jones

            The genre you’re talking is Pulp Adventure.

          4. Yup. Never ran one of those campaigns or played in one. Most of my tabletop RPG was SF, fantasy, or superheroes, with some one-shot sessions here and there of either Steve Jackson Games Toon or West End Games Paranoia for silliness and levity.

    1. He’s lawless. I don’t EVER want these guys going on about how we have to follow the law, when they decided to flout reasonable and sensible government regulations. You know, the same regulations I would have to follow if I went to work at my office. Except that my employer has flatly told me to stay away from my office for the last six months.

  6. You are an IDIOT. WHO TAUGHT YOU HOW TO WRITE? Where did you go to school and get an education because your parents wasted a lot of money. Your facts are completely unsubstantiated. Just because you are a journalist does not mean you can write a bunch of untruths. You are the reason there is so much confusion in this world because you write articles from your opinion and your emotions instead of basing them on fact. You are a disgrace to the journalistic community..

    1. Somebody definitely needs a hug or a tranquilizer. I have a video so there isn’t any doubt about what John MacArthur said. The data are sourced so you can’t dispute those. Do you not like the facts?

      Oh, btw, which fruit of the spirit are you displaying?

  7. You are an IDIOT. WHO TAUGHT YOU HOW TO WRITE? Where did you go to school and get an education because your parents wasted a lot of money. Your facts are completely unsubstantiated. Just because you are a journalist does not mean you can write a bunch of untruths. You are the reason there is so much confusion in this world because you write articles from your opinion and your emotions instead of basing them on fact. You are a disgrace to the journalistic community..

    1. Woah. SOMEbody woke up on the wrong side of the world…

      Slow down. Take a chill pill. And what in tarnation are you goin’ on about?

      1. Reality is failing to conform to her desires so she has to stamp her widdle feet at the messenger. Or it’s MacArthur.

    2. Warren is a psychologist (and an author), not a journalist. However, he does (and has) know how to give citations for the facts he presents, unlike MacArthur.

      If you believe something Warren (or any of the commenters here) has said is untrue, feel free to actually quote what you believe to be untrue and your evidence as to why you think that.

      However, you will find unsubstantiated accusations won’t get you very far on this blog.

    3. Somebody definitely needs a hug or a tranquilizer. I have a video so there isn’t any doubt about what John MacArthur said. The data are sourced so you can’t dispute those. Do you not like the facts?

      Oh, btw, which fruit of the spirit are you displaying?

      1. Tranquilizer, I think. Distancing can be maintained if a dart is used … (though it might be more humane to offer a pill on a very long spoon, and one does like to be humane wherever possible)

        Obviously, in ‘normal’ times, a(n appropriate) hug would be offered, I know …

  8. The CDC uses the term “epidemic threshold’.

    From the CDC on April 3, 2020: The percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) increased to 8.2% and is above the epidemic threshold of 7.2%. Link

    From the CDC updated on Sept 4, 2020: Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia, influenza, or COVID-19 (PIC) for week 35 was 6.6%, lower than the percentage during week 34 (10.7%), but above the epidemic threshold. These percentages will likely increase as more death certificates are processed. Link

    And from a USA Today fact-check: “The ‘epidemic threshold’ refers to the point at which the observed proportion of deaths is significantly higher than would be expected at that time of the year in the absence of substantial influenza, and now COVID-related mortality”. Link

    So the threshold changes depending on expected deaths for that time of the year. Which is exactly what that controversial chart from a couple of posts ago explained. The link is on the page from Sept 4, but you have to scroll way down.

    1. I posted this in the other thread, but I’ll repost here:

      The CDC defines an “epidemic threshold” as:

      An increase of 1.645 standard deviations above the seasonal baseline of P&I deaths is considered the “epidemic threshold,” i.e., the point at which the observed proportion of deaths is significantly higher than would be expected at that time of the year in the absence of substantial influenza, and now COVID-related mortality.

      (last paragraph on this page).

  9. MacArthur said that the definition of a pandemic is that “1 to 3% of the people die.”

    I am pretty sure that this can’t be the definition of “pandemic”. So if there are more than 3% of people die, it’s not a pandemic? A definition as such is just odd?!

  10. Wa state churches have been able to hold indoor worship under strict number limits and social distancing and a four page list of rules. This has been the case since at least June. The church near me has been meeting for a couple of months. My church is still meeting via livestream going on six months.

    1. Remarkable how hundreds and thousands of churches everywhere are able to accomplish quite easily what John MacArthur refuses to even try. Given such blatant incompetence, it’s understandable why MacArthur was forced to step down as president of The Master’s University while his institution remains on probation and may still be stripped of accreditation.

      MacArthur’s self-serving, willfully harmful theology is showing again.

      1. You are aware, that as of yesterday, still no one has contracted that virus in his church?

        this virus is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon our country not to mention the world!

        1. MacArthur doesn’t know whether anyone who has attended his church has been infected. He might be right in that nobody in his congregation has gotten seriously ill or died, but he doesn’t know if there have been asymptomatic cases in his church, and will those with mild symptoms dare to contradict their beloved pastor’s assertions?

          And for all we know, people in his congregation could be responsible for spreading the virus to the wider community and causing the deaths of several people in the area. A Maine wedding that was held illegally last month has resulted in three deaths, none of whom attended the wedding.

          Over 200,000 more people will die in 2020 than die in a typical non-pandemic year in the USA. So what do you think they’re all dying from, if not Covid-19?

          1. Maybe he thinks it is FEMA camps or perhaps the black helicopters, as I am not sure which conspiracy theory is in vogue among the evangelidiots at the moment.

          2. Actually it’s Q-Anon and The Trump Prophecies as SCRIPTURE, parsed through Bible Code numerology.
            But rest assured, it’s all headed by SATAN himself!

          3. The question is where does Mike Warnke and the Satanic child sacrifice panics of the 1970’s fit in all of this? Surely there must be a Jack Chick tract that is prophetic about this.

          4. I lived through the Satanic Panic in the 80s, and I hear many echoes of the Satanic Panic in the QAnon nonsense. I remember my Youth Pastor warning us not to listen to rock music or watch the Star Wars movies because “Hollywood and the music industry are full of Satan worshippers.” I remember the pastor preaching that good Christians would not put their children in daycare, because daycare centers were “nothing but fronts for Satan-worshipping child s3x cults.” The same pastor also declared that parents should not allow their children to go trick-or-treating on Halloween one year, because Satan worshippers would be prowling the neighborhoods in vans, looking for children to kidnap and take into the woods for “Satanic s3x rituals.” (My parents bought that one…Worst. Halloween. Ever.)

            How different is that from hogwash about Hillary Clinton and Hollywood and Democrat elites running pedophile rings in non-existent basements of pizza parlors, or torturing children for a non-existent drug? It isn’t. It’s the same garbage in a shiny new package with Q’s printed all over it.

          5. Yup. I just look back and wonder how they could be so gullible. The sad thing is that Christianity and reason are not incompatible. Only in the last 75 years or so has evangelicalism gone nuts with its anti-intellectualism, anti-science, anti-reason, and so on. It just boggles the mind.

            I am not sure if you know this, but one the classic treatises on logic was written by Isaac Watts, a pastor and theologian (He wrote the Christmas carol Joy to the World). His book on Logic was used by Ivy League schools, Oxford, and Cambridge for well over 100 years:

            https://www.amazon.com/Logic-Right-Reason-Inquiry-After/dp/1573580554

            This why I most of the Christian authors I read are folks that have been dead for 100 years or more (J.I. Packer and Stott being a couple of more recently dead exceptions).

          6. Yup. I just look back and wonder how they could be so gullible.

            Christians are the easiest of easy marks if you speak Christianese and know the tribal recognition markers.

          7. It’s the same garbage in a shiny new package with Q’s printed all over it.

            And casting Donald Trump as the Messiah/Saviour figure.

          8. The question is where does Mike Warnke and the Satanic child sacrifice panics of the 1970’s fit in all of this? Surely there must be a Jack Chick tract that is prophetic about this.

          9. If only those 200k obese heart disease diabetes respiratory infections Aids people didnt have the covid, if only, they might have lived a few more months… :(.

          10. Or even years. Many people with these underlying conditions have lived with them for years. And if they don’t contract covid-19 may live for many more years.

          11. If only their house door had a lock to avoid people if indeed they r so fragile.. But if they r so fragile than its probably a better idea to make peace with their Maker as they might go any day…:

          12. A person doesn’t have to be frail in order to have a condition that significantly increases their risk of serious injury or death from contracting covid-19.

            As I said, they could live years longer (not months as you claimed) if they don’t contract covid-19.

          13. And you can also be an nfl player and die in a car accident, but i hope we are smart enough not ban all cars if die crossing the road tomorrow.. but hey at this point it dont matter as we can see the end of the current world system, where covid 19 will be the last thing on everybody’s minds in a short while.

          14. No we don’t “ban cars”, but we do require you be licensed before driving one in public, as well as a lot of other laws to prevent traffic fatalities. they don’t stop traffic fatalities completely, but they can significantly reduce them.

            “we can see the end of the current world system,”

            Maybe you can, but I can’t. Perhaps you are only seeing what you want to see. Several countries (china, taiwan, south korea etc) are already getting their economies moving again. Perhaps if the US had better leadership, it too might be further along in dealing with this pandemic.

        2. this virus is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon our country not to mention the world

          Q-ANON AND DOCTOR DEMON SEX HATH SPOKEN!

      2. If you think that people like John MacArthur will bow down to this hoax you have another thing coming, not only that. More people will wake up, if indeed they worship the true God, Jesus Christ.

        1. I don’t think they will “bow down”, I think they will fall down, once they contract the disease. The problem is how many people they may take with them.

          1. No, that is the figure that may DIE from it (and I suspect it will be higher than that, but I don’t know the age makeup of the GCC congregation). not the figure for those who could be seriously injured from it.

          2. Could be, but then again, we live in a country where we can choose to barricade ourselves in our homes for decades to come, and live alright. Let us live free and die that way too :).

          3. the issue you keep missing is that it isn’t just the parishioners that could be effected, but everyone they spread it to.

          4. the issue you keep missing is that it isn’t just the parishioners that could be effected, but everyone they spread it to.

          5. I would prefer not to die because some numbnuts decide not to wear masks. /signed, a diabetic with other comorbidities, but I do hold down a fairly demanding job.

          6. Ultimately your life doesn’t hang in the hands of a numb nut, but in the hands of God, would recommend making peace with Him and accepting that these numb nuts wont wear masks.

          7. Everything should be done within reason, but when you take God out of it you take reason also. Not complaining as im very much looking forward to the collapse of the banking system. In the end i really hope Biden wins, so we can get this thing on a fast track. :).

        2. SO Jesus Christ is not only a wholly-owned asset of The Trump Organization, but of the Plandemic boyz and Anti-Vaxxers?

          Why not throw in The Reptilians from The Constellation Draco (and/or The Hollow Earth) for completion?

          1. Only when he earns it, like the rest of us. A man so full of himself that he puts his congregation at risk is not a “man of God.”

          2. Because none of his congregation felt compelled to show up, because he said they should, to “honor God” and keep the church open? Or because they believe that, as a preacher, he is a “man of God, and they should do what he says to do?

          3. Feeling compelled and not having the option of feeling compelled are two very different things. As a man of God he does not say what they should do but what the word of God says to do, and after that they still have the option of feeling compelled or not.

          4. Feeling compelled and not having the option of feeling compelled are two very different things. As a man of God he does not say what they should do but what the word of God says to do, and after that they still have the option of feeling compelled or not.

          5. Only when he earns it, like the rest of us. A man so full of himself that he puts his congregation at risk is not a “man of God.”

          6. Oh come on, man/woman: MacArthur is (or has become) a complete fruitcake, and a potentially dangerous one at that, given that he appears so inclined to dismiss the severity of the current situation.

            We must all show respect for reality, so that we can show respect for each other by behaving responsibly. The evangelical-tradition church I sometimes attend is taking things very seriously and planning very carefully to reduce any risk of transmission to an absolute minimum. THAT (realistic and caring) behaviour is ‘godly’; silly stunts and wild delusions is something else entirely …

          7. Nice how you didn’t assume my gender, i wonder why you stopped there. “Show respect for reality” , the reality that you take from the same people that care so much about flattening “the curve” while supporting the right to kill babies after their born, or the reality that you are more likely to die from a heart attack while typing your responses on some website? Nm about you discerning spiritual realities as it seems your are definitely dead in your sins.

          8. Why are you suddenly talking about killing babies? Have you become completely deranged?

            The reality is very clear: there is a new virus out there and it can kill, as well cause significant long-term damage to the body, so we should face the reality and take care of ourselves and others, and not engage in publicity stunts (cf. Luke 4 : 9 – 12).

        1. May the Lord rebuke you!

          He already does.
          With every Twitter Tweet from #RealDonadlTrump.

          P.S. You forgot to spell “Lord” in ALL-CAPS.

        2. May the Lord rebuke you!

          He already does.
          With every Twitter Tweet from #RealDonadlTrump.

          P.S. You forgot to spell “Lord” in ALL-CAPS.

        3. If I say, “May the Lord rebuke YOU!” then we have competing rebuke requests. How will we know who wins?

          1. Warren, you are missing the fact that god could rebuke you both. Esp. for making such frivolous requests when there is a pandemic to deal with.

          2. Easy, wait until judgement day, which for the both of us will be inside of 100 years, or a little longer if you are facing the judgement where you are thrown into hell.

      1. Gives a new meaning to “eating your greens” …

        (If he gets constipated, he can try hardbacks for extra roughage.)

  11. Not meaning to break MacArthur’s self-righteous bubble, there are other churches open in California. There are at least two within a couple miles of my home here in Northern CA. However, they use masks and limit the number of people. I don’t agree with what they are doing, but they are doing it.

  12. Not meaning to break MacArthur’s self-righteous bubble, there are other churches open in California. There are at least two within a couple miles of my home here in Northern CA. However, they use masks and limit the number of people. I don’t agree with what they are doing, but they are doing it.

  13. Not meaning to break MacArthur’s self-righteous bubble, there are other churches open in California. There are at least two within a couple miles of my home here in Northern CA. However, they use masks and limit the number of people. I don’t agree with what they are doing, but they are doing it.

    1. Well, you need to go back and listen to what he said. Your comments don’t make any sense!

      1. They make lots of sense…we have churches in my area that are “open”, meeting inside their buildings in smallish groups (but too big for the health department mandated size), with masks. So, they aren’t meeting with the blessing of the local authorities, but they also aren’t calling undue attention to themselves. It’s rather like illegal poker games. I don’t agree with what they are doing, and I choose to worship online at home, but it’s occurring. MacArthur just needs to seem to need a lot of attention. When someone gets sick, he will receive much more attention than he ever wants to get.

          1. Nobody will die that is not suppose to die, meanwhile God hating people like you are still breathing God’s air….oh, the mysteries.

          2. No, I don’t believe you’ve made that claim before. how do you know you are immune to covid-19 (which isn’t “the flu”)?

          3. No, I don’t believe you’ve made that claim before. how do you know you are immune to covid-19 (which isn’t “the flu”)?

          4. Simply because you may have been exposed to a communicable illness and didn’t contract it doesn’t mean you are immune to it.

            Have you ever been tested for the virus or the anti-bodies to the virus?

    2. The ones in my area not only “use masks and limit the number of people”, they’re also holding services outdoors under pavillion-tent roofs.

      These are all mainstreams and denominationals; I do not know about the little splinter churches or Megas.

    1. At a minimum, he doesn’t care if people die, just as long as they’re “honoring God”(and John MacArthur) in the way he wants them to.

      1. Well, you are aware, that no one has died or even contracted the virus in his church as of yesterday?

        Think before you talk!

        1. You realize that people can be asymptomatic and that the signs don’t always show up right away? We have no real idea of what is happening there. Are people not showing up to church but got sick and aren’t telling anyone? Who knows.

        2. You realize that people can be asymptomatic and that the signs don’t always show up right away? We have no real idea of what is happening there. Are people not showing up to church but got sick and aren’t telling anyone? Who knows.

          1. Sometime i wish the fatalities were higher to justify all these measures… But we’ll take what we can get, as long as the end of the world is on a fast track, i will glorify God.

          2. You think il be sad when God takes me home, be it today or 50 years from now? Even if you don’t know anything about Christianity you should know at least that this earth is a war zone for the believer.

          3. Look at it this way, the more you live the more sins you acquire hence the more horrible hell, if indeed you die without Christ.

          4. I don’t share your beliefs. I was simply pointing out your “wishing people to die” comment hardly seems like a way to “glorify god.”

          5. So to be clear, wishing for people to die is your way of “glorifying god”?

            how christian of you.

          6. But to clarify in case you didnt see the dot. I will give glory to God if the end of the world is coming soon or not. But since we are talking about people being happy when someone dies, im assuming you are claiming the moral high ground by supporting a party that murders innocent babies. How caring of you and how disgusting of me to mention a hypothetical.

          7. The topic isn’t about abortion, so I’m not going to be drawn into a debate about that.

            However, to be clear, I have never posted anything like “Sometime i wish the fatalities were higher” about ANY GROUP.

          8. Kudos to you for not advocating murder but the politicians that support it. Since we are sticking to subjects, why bring the “glorifying god” part into it since it was clear that it was in a different sentence talking about a different subject? Attack me not God.

          9. because it was all one post of just 2 sentences. and they were not disjointed. I’ll repost for clarity:

            “Sometime i wish the fatalities were higher to justify all these
            measures… But we’ll take what we can get, as long as the end of the
            world is on a fast track, i will glorify God.”

            “we’ll take what we can get” what is that referring to?

          10. because it was all one post of just 2 sentences. and they were not disjointed. I’ll repost for clarity:

            “Sometime i wish the fatalities were higher to justify all these
            measures… But we’ll take what we can get, as long as the end of the world is on a fast track, i will glorify God.”

            “we’ll take what we can get” what is that referring to?

          11. Meaning il accept what God decides to do in regards to the end of the world, sorry grammar not my strong suit and ESL is not my first language, cant express myself good.

          12. I agree with Ken: this thread has nothing to do with abortion (now I think I understand your [irrelevant] reference to babies). Like Ken, I have no desire to see anybody die (or be permanently damaged) as a result of infection with SARS-CoV-2, and regret that more people have died, or been permanently scarred, than could have been the case. My beef with certain people who claim to be Christian is that they are not sufficiently concerned with the safety of others, whoever those others may be. These people have absolutely no right whatsoever to try to ‘prove a point’ about their beliefs by putting others’ lives or wellbeing at risk.

            (Incidentally, I believe that noone can get sick as a result of receiving Holy Communion [and in both kinds, including with the use of the common cup] with sincerity of heart, but I do NOT believe that we should ‘test God’ by failing to take all reasonable measures to minimize the spread of this potentially deadly virus.)

          13. Again, its a free country, take a 1 year vacay, unless the my own body my own choice doesnt work in this case because it doesnt fit an agenda than … ……… …. …. .

          14. Again, the topic is not about abortion, your attempts to make the conversation about abortion isn’t going to work.

          15. But it isn’t just about one’s own body, is it? Those who spread SARS-CoV-2 could be affecting, potentially with very severe effects, the bodies of many other people …

            You are of course free to ‘test God’, but just be aware that there could be consequences that you might not wish to experience.

            Just on freedom generally: freedom is meaningless if one is concerned about only one’s own. A free society is not the same thing as a collection of individuals each exercising their freedom in whatever way they choose, and the guarantee of a democratic society is the rule of law.

          16. Were you ever in “Christians For Nuclear War”?

            Because before it can personally happen to you, the Rapture will beam you up into a catered Superbowl Suite in Heaven where you can watch it all as a spectator sport and “be laughing as the world burns”.

          17. Can God not be glorified by having a church meet over Zoom? Or outdoors, with congregants wearing masks and spaced six feet apart?

          18. if you’re outside and wearing a mask, maybe. Have you never seen those videos of how far sneezes and coughs spread particulates?

          19. So 5ft is really pushing it then? What about taking the mask off when you are eating at a restaurant or the CoVid just has bodyguards at entrance and gives you a pass on infection once you are in? Man, i wish i knew somebody from the CoVid org, would come in handy.

          20. You really should just order take-out. It’s that “being in a confined space” thing, again.

          21. Being outdoors with ventilation cuts the chance of spread dramatically.
            Even being indoors as long as there’s non-recirculating ventilation is a big help. The amount of air dilutes the viral load/viral plume. Even Fifties-vintage A/Cs (“back when everybody smoked”) which take 100% of their air intake from outside and exhaust the used air without recirculating are a big help.

            Unfortunately, all recent-construction buildings have sealed windows and recirculating HVAC, so any introduced viral load just circulates around and around until the infectious dose threshold is passed.

          22. restaurants that are open should be seating customers more than 6 ft. away from each other which is what lessens the chances of transmission.

            Doesn’t really take a medical degree to understand that, just basic common sense.

          23. Most eateries in my area with drive-thrus (including a major-league Sushi joint) seem to be surviving pretty well. Others have cordoned off parts of their parking lots for outdoor dine-in under pavillion tent roofs, but that sort of space is limited and we’ve been buffeted by a major heat wave this past week.

          24. Same here in MA. Some of the local eateries have been very resourceful in setting up their outdoor seating (a couple even have more outdoor seating than they ever had indoors). Of course we are entering to the more fall weather with highs in the mid to upper 70’s.

          25. Same here in MA. Some of the local eateries have been very resourceful in setting up their outdoor seating (a couple even have more outdoor seating than they ever had indoors). Of course we are entering to the more fall weather with highs in the mid to upper 70’s.

          26. Really? Have you been to a restaurant where they are seated 6 ft apart? It also doesn’t take a physicist to know that when the waiter brings you food u are less than 6 ft. but its ok because they are wearing masks and at that exact moment all laws of physics are suspended and covid takes a bathroom break.

          27. Yes I have. and the waiters are all wearing masks (and often gloves), customers are also required to wear masks UNTIL their food is brought to them.

            No broken laws of physics or medicine. Now to be clear, eating in a restaurant does carry greater risks than ordering take-out (or just staying home). But not nearly the same risks as going to an indoor church service where people aren’t wearing masks or staying 6ft apart from one another.

        3. No one that we know of who is a member of the congregation has died. That doesn’t mean that no member of the congregation who is ill with the virus but asymptomatic has not passed it on to other members of the community outside the church. So long as they meet in person, it remains a risk.

          Consider before you write!

    1. That’s right…polio generally didn’t kill, but the epidemics were scary as hell. My mother tells me how relieved everyone was when the Salk vaccine and then the Sabin vaccine came out.

      1. Your mother was absolutely right. Swimming pools closed in summer because they were seen as places where polio was likely to be lurking, and kids disappeared from school, sometimes to come back later in leg braces, like the two in my neighborhood. Children in school lined up for polio vaccines when they became available. It was a huge load off everybody’s mind when the vaccines proved to be effective.

        1. Well, do you know anybody that would take a Covid19 vaccine if it was available?

          USA Today released a poll this past week that said over 2/3 of Americans said they would not even consider taking the vaccine. Count me in that majority!

          1. That’s because of Trump’s desire to push out the vaccine before election day in the vain hope that it will win him enough votes to win reelection. Trump alone, in his own self-absorbed buffoonish way, has done more to damage vaccines as a key component to healthcare in this country than you anti-vaxxers have managed in two decades.

            It’s a moot point anyway, since even if a vaccine is available before Nov 3rd it will only be available for first responders and front-line medical workers for the first month or two. But as someone who was diagnosed with COPD earlier this year, you bet I’ll be getting the vaccine, if and when it’s proven safe and effective by the phase three trials.

          2. All the companies working on the vaccines also released a joint statement saying they will only put in the paperwork for final approval on their timetable and once it is verified to be safe and effective. IOW, it will be available when they say it is ready, not the Cheeto Jesus.

          3. Do you have a source for that statement? ‘Twould be great if it were literally true, but there are at least dozens if not hundreds of companies working on a vaccine … isn’t it a little improbable that all of them would agree to a joint statement? I would think the temptation of the reward for first to market might prove too much for some.

          4. Dr Fauci is on record as having faith in the political independence of the panel that will ultimately authorize the approval of any vaccine. That gives me some confidence in the process, but given Trump has the power of the executive behind him, it still warrants close scrutiny every step of the way. The panel may have to resist a huge amount of pressure, and I wouldn’t completely rule out Trump ordering the distribution over their heads. Then it would head to the courts, no doubt.

            In the end, there probably isn’t enough time for anything to happen before the election, but Trump is in charge until latter half of January no matter what happens.

          5. Do you have a source for that statement? ‘Twould be great if it were literally true, but there are at least dozens if not hundreds of companies working on a vaccine … isn’t it a little improbable that all of them would agree to a joint statement? I would think the temptation of the reward for first to market might prove too much for some.

          6. I don’t know about “all,” but I did read that many of them have signed a joint statement. That’s good news.

          7. When I talked over the “Vaccine October Surprise” scenario, he wouldn’t be surprised if the Trump Vaccine rolled out in October was just sugar water. Only has to last through the Election and its aftermath.

            And if we DO get an effective vaccine, what if instead of First Responders and Front-Line Medical Workers it’s the Loyal Trumpists in Red States who get to be the front of the line? LOYALTY, LOYALTY, LOYALTY. I very much doubt The Christians would have any objection to that. Again, LOYALTY, LOYALTY, LOYALTY.

          8. HydroxyChloroQ-Anon?
            (With all the conspiracy TRVTHs enveloping it, it might as well be.)

          9. “. . .if and when it’s proven safe and effective by the phase three trials.”

            Those are the key words. When results of phase three trials are available, and a vaccine is proven to be effective, without major side effects, I’ll happily stand in line for it–but not until then. Trump pushes every quack cure out there, hoping something works, so he can get people to vote for him–not that I would do that, anyway.

        2. Did you know that there were a lot of different diseases that were categorized generally as polio until they started using the polio vaccines, then they sorted out Enteroviruses (such as Coxsackie and ECHO) congenital syphilis, arsenic and DDT toxcicity, transverse myelitis, Guillain-Barre syndrome, limp paralysis by intramuscular injections, hand foot and mouth disease, lead poisoning, aseptic meningitis, and others. which made it look like there was a drop in cases when in reality they were just calling things what they are.
          Did you know that the worst polio out in our country’s history most likely escaped from a Rockefeller lab?
          Did you know that Sister Elizabeth Kenny invented a treatment (hot cloths and physical therapy) for infantile paralysis (including polio) that had at least an 80% success rate of reversing/curing paralysis but was largely ignored and ridiculed by the medical community for 20+ years. A lot of polio paralysis was actually caused by the arrogant and poor treatment methods of the doctors.
          Did you know that most polio cases only lasted for a week? Only .01 ended in any type of paralysis and .001 percent in death.
          Did you know that the polio vaccine can cause paralysis?
          Did you know that there is solid evidence to support that the extreme over use of DDT and other pesticides contributed to paralysis that looked like polio? (which might also explain why polio was the worst in the summer when extra pesticide was sprayed)
          Did you know that for polio to enter the body it has to come through an open nerve and that doctors at the same time as polio was a problem were doing a lot of tonsillectomies (50-80% of middle class children and up had unnecessary tonsillectomies in the polio era.) in a 1943 polio epidemic in Utah 46% of bulbar polio had been preceded by a recent tonsillectomy.
          Did you know that FDR most likely had GBS not polio?
          There is so much more to the issue of polio than just the narrative “vaccines stop polio” There are many sources that say otherwise, and that it was different environmental factors that both caused and led to the downfall of what we call polio

          1. Hi Ken! It came from the book “Dissolving Illusions” by Suzanne Humphries. It is a very interesting read and I would highly recommend it if you have time. Have a great day!!

          2. Is this one Anti-Vaxxer citing another Anti-Vaxxer in circular Larry/Moe/Curly documentation?

            i.e. Larry cites Moe for proof, Moe cites Curly for proof, Curly cites Larry for proof, Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. Happened all the time with Spiritual Warfare Activists during The Satanic Panic.

          3. Is this one Anti-Vaxxer citing another Anti-Vaxxer in circular Larry/Moe/Curly documentation?

            i.e. Larry cites Moe for proof, Moe cites Curly for proof, Curly cites Larry for proof, Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. Happened all the time with Spiritual Warfare Activists during The Satanic Panic.

          4. “Dr Suzanne Humphries is a medical doctor certified by the American Board of Internal Medicine in both internal medicine and nephrology. She worked in the conventional medical system from 1989 until 2011, when she left her hospital position in good standing”

          5. Based on his account profile It’s either Brietbart, Natural News (Fake news and dietary supplements site) or both.

          6. Based on his account profile It’s either Brietbart, Natural News (Fake news and dietary supplements site) or both.

          7. Wow — the full vaccine denier treatment.

            I didn’t know that rabbit hole extended half-way to the Earth’s core,.

          8. Well, seeing as you asked about a dozen times “Did you know?” I’ll play along. No, I didn’t know and I am pretty sure you don’t either. D.

          9. And playing the Wide-Eyed Innocent is a common form of gaslighting among trolls who get caught.

          10. And playing the Wide-Eyed Innocent is a common form of gaslighting among trolls who get caught.

          11. Did you know that you don’t know what you asked over and over if I knew? Does that help clear it up?

          12. Did you know that you don’t know what you asked over and over if I knew? Does that help clear it up?

          13. Whether you disagree with the author or not does not change the outside sources that are stated in the book, or the truth of the statements that I made. Please no ad hominem attacks, if you have a contradictory opinion I would be happy to discuss it with you!!

          14. you didn’t actually make any statements, you just posed a bunch of questions intended to imply statements without actually making any. Further, these implications you make are without contexts and largely meaningless.

          15. you just posed a bunch of questions intended to imply statements without actually making any.

            Thus allowing Full Plausible Deniability and Reverse-the-Blame Gaslighting.

    2. That’s right…polio generally didn’t kill, but the epidemics were scary as hell. My mother tells me how relieved everyone was when the Salk vaccine and then the Sabin vaccine came out.

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