I watched the whole thing because I study this stuff, but John Fea did his readers a favor by summarizing a truly bizarre segment of the Jim Bakker Show (and that is saying something) with David Barton and Brad Cummings as guests. You should go read it.
I really can’t improve on Fea’s piece, but I want to highlight a few things. It is being reported around social media that David Barton predicted that a second civil war might happen if the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade. Barton believes “liberal states” like California will secede. He believes that might trigger a war.
First, I seriously doubt this prophecy. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion regulation will return to the states and California will keep it legal while Alabama will outlaw it — at least for now. I believe there will be strong feelings and some might call for drastic actions, but I believe a return of regulation to the states has been anticipated for many years by both sides of the issue.
The second thing I want to notice here is the crew which cooked up this religious stew. According to Barton and Cummings (co-publisher of The Shack), they got together with Mormon Glenn Beck, seven mountain dominionist Lance Wallnau, and Rick Joyner to discuss where America is heading. I wonder which person’s god gave Joyner “the dream.”
Cummings then said that Joyner had a dream of America’s timeline from heaven’s perspective (because of course America is central in God’s mind). The bottom line is that Joyner said the time line ended with a second American civil war which this time will be “successful” in achieving equality. Let me quote what Fea had to say about this segment of the video:
Barton then affirms Joyner’s vision, and in doing so he says some accurate things about the failure of the founders to deliver on matters of racial equality. This is a huge step for Barton. It led me to wonder where he was going this. Where was the culture-war hook?
And then it happened. At about the 4:50 mark Barton adds an additional layer to his interpretation of Joyner’s dream. Rather than continuing with his mini-lecture on America’s failure in matters of race, he suggests that Joyner’s vision about a “Second American Revolution and Civil War” was actually about Roe v. Wade. Barton says that we should expect a Civil War “over the abortion issue.” If Roe v. Wade is overturned, California and other pro-choice states will secede from the Union and it will end in violence.
Eating this gnostic stew could be dangerous. Barton said he had to be careful how he said it, but there is no careful way to say that it may be God’s will to go to war over abortion. This is lunacy and every sane person should reject it publicly.
As I noted above, the issue will be decided by the states if Roe is overturned. However, even if states do attempt to secede, it is unthinkable to have a war where people die for a pro-life cause.
These people are so far removed from war that they don’t know what they are doing or who they are radicalizing. To them (especially Bakker and his end time food buckets), these sensationalized shows are ways to move products. Cummings and Barton are making the rounds right now to sell The Founders Bible as if it is a new thing. Rather, Barton and Cummings brought that out in 2012 after the failure of The Jefferson Lies.
About That Founders Bible
Barton and Cummings should do some soul searching on their messaging regarding slavery. In the first edition of The Founders Bible, they called slave holder and slavery advocate James Hammond of SC an American leader because he was an advocate of America as a Christian nation (see also here and here). Hammond was just alright then.
For more on historical errors in The Founders Bible, click here.
How many times do Barton and Joyner get to be wrong about the consequences of Supreme Court decisions before they are booted from the Fortune Tellers Union?
On June 25, 2015, the day before the Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality, Joyner warned that such a decision will cause this country to unravel “like it hasn’t since the Civil War”.
Just that DB was on JIM BAKKER says so much. The kooks will always support each other.
The Ameri-centric eschatology smells like Mormonism, tbh.
The idea that California would secede if Roe v Wade is struck down is absurd. It is more likely that Alabama would try to do so if it is upheld, and even that is absurd. As Warren wrote, in the event it is struck down the decision to allow abortions will revert back to the states where it was before the ruling by SCOTUS. This is why the entire battle against Roe is a Red Herring, developed as a rallying cry by groups that needed it.
Abortion on demand is not going anywhere. It may be limited in some states for a while, but there are other pressures that are perhaps stronger than the law which will come into play over time (economic, societal, etc). For those who wish to decrease the number of abortions, comprehensive sex education and the widespread availability of contraceptives would do far more than this legal fight ever will. Unfortunately, those who fight abortion seem also to fight those measures.
Ideology, religious based or otherwise, is a very poor substitute for evidenced based programs. Do what accomplishes the goal while preserving the rights of the individual and the good of society as a whole. This other stuff is just the modern day equivalent of mobs with rocks and torches.
The idea that California would secede if Roe v Wade is struck down is absurd. It is more likely that Alabama would try to do so if it is upheld, and even that is absurd. As Warren wrote, in the event it is struck down the decision to allow abortions will revert back to the states where it was before the ruling by SCOTUS. This is why the entire battle against Roe is a Red Herring, developed as a rallying cry by groups that needed it.
Abortion on demand is not going anywhere. It may be limited in some states for a while, but there are other pressures that are perhaps stronger than the law which will come into play over time (economic, societal, etc). For those who wish to decrease the number of abortions, comprehensive sex education and the widespread availability of contraceptives would do far more than this legal fight ever will. Unfortunately, those who fight abortion seem also to fight those measures.
Ideology, religious based or otherwise, is a very poor substitute for evidenced based programs. Do what accomplishes the goal while preserving the rights of the individual and the good of society as a whole. This other stuff is just the modern day equivalent of mobs with rocks and torches.
“I wonder which person’s god gave Joyner ‘the dream.'” Warren, let me humbly suggest that before you pre-judge anything that you take a good hard look at what Joyner (not the rest) actually says. He has been writing on this topic all year after he first shared what he saw on his Word for the Week. Original video is here: https://sermons-online.org/rick-joyner/rick-joyner-january-21-2019-the-second-american-revolutionary-civil-war-part-1 You know how easily things go wrong when others jump to conclusions before examining them. You might discover that he actually is well read concerning the founding fathers, which is a mutual interest of yours.
Thank you, no.
Go to http://www.rightwingwatch.org/people/rick-joyner/ and you’ll notice the “Load More” button on the bottom of the page. Click it, and item after item of Rick Joyner lunacy scrolls in.
Samples:
Right Wing Bonus Tracks: Trump Can Just Ignore the Courts
Right Wing Bonus Tracks: Our Wealthy Jewish Masters
Rick Joyner: California Wildfires Were ‘The Result of Your Sin’
Rick Joyner: Hurricane Florence Will Be ‘A Major, Major Blessing’
Rick Joyner: Sin, Not Climate Change, Is Responsible for Hurricane Florence
‘Translated By Faith’: Rick Joyner’s Tale Of Teleportation
Rick Joyner: Trump Will Unleash A Christian Revival In America ‘Because Of His Sincere Fear Of The Lord’
Rick Joyner Links Florida Shooting To End Of School Prayer Opening ‘The Gate Of Hell’
Rick Joyner: Trump Might Be ‘The Most Brilliant Person I’ve Ever Met’
Rick Joyner: Opposition To President Trump Is Satanic
To wit, Rick Joyner is a nut job.
I have to second that. He also supported another nut job (and I don’t throw adjectives around like that lightly), Todd Bentley. Joyner has put out a long list of pseudo spiritual / prophetic nonsense that is typical of today’s “give me money for the gospel” con men. Add to this the dangerous garbage that has been broadcast on MorningStar, and there seems little to redeem Rick Joyner’s reputation.
I have to second that. He also supported another nut job (and I don’t throw adjectives around like that lightly), Todd Bentley. Joyner has put out a long list of pseudo spiritual / prophetic nonsense that is typical of today’s “give me money for the gospel” con men. Add to this the dangerous garbage that has been broadcast on MorningStar, and there seems little to redeem Rick Joyner’s reputation.
I have to second that. He also supported another nut job (and I don’t throw adjectives around like that lightly), Todd Bentley. Joyner has put out a long list of pseudo spiritual / prophetic nonsense that is typical of today’s “give me money for the gospel” con men. Add to this the dangerous garbage that has been broadcast on MorningStar, and there seems little to redeem Rick Joyner’s reputation.
Oh dear, I fear my binging all 5 seasons of Queer as Folk just caused a hurricane.
It took a minute…
Sorry, I do not take my truth from either far right websites and crap like Barton or the far left ones. They both politicize issues and spin things to such a distorted extreme that there is little truth in them. I know Joyner. I read at least 9 of his books and watched many of his Prophetic Perspectives on Current Events. I know his stuff well enough to criticize it. The links you posted do not even address things he actually says, so I will pass…
OK. Your call.
He stood on the stage with Todd Bentley at the circus dubbed the Lakeland Revival. He continued his support even after the man was fully exposed for what he is. That alone is enough to disqualify any of his “prophetic perspectives.” If you want to seek truth, you can’t ignore facts just because they happen to concern one of your own sacred cows.
You do realize Right Wing Watch sources all their claims, right? they even usually embed the relevant portion of the video or audio right in the article so you can listen for yourself. They undoubtedly are liberal leaning, but they don’t make up stuff and correct posts when they make mistakes.
Has anyone seen this documentary? It seems to refute many of Barton’s claims about the Founding Fathers, although I don’t know how accurate it is:
https://shop.jeremiahfilms.com/the-hidden-faith-of-the-founding-fathers-dvd.html
Ok. I checked this out so no one else has to go through it. The founder and president of Jeremiah Films is Patrick Matrisciana. According to the Encyclopedia of American Loons, the common thread in JF’s productions is finding the most lunatic, paranoid, demonic-led conspiracy angle possible, and then try to push a slightly more extreme position.
I would say Patrick has achieved great success in finding an extreme position to counter Barton. In the film under discussion here, The Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers, Patrick “confronts the idea often suggested that the founders were “deists,” or “agnostics” – whereas, according to the Bible, they were antichrists.”
Who knew someone could outdo Barton?
He puts out some real garbage, but I’m sure it sells to some. There is a lot of Freemason conspiracy nonsense in the catalog as well. Thanks for taking the time.
You’ve sent me Googling also 🙂 Had no idea what Joyner could have gotten up to in Lakeland, the headquarters of Publix Grocery Stores. Good grief. These people aren’t normal in any sense of the word.
It was a nightmare. The whole thing was sponsored by Stephen Strader, the last gasp of a family that has plagued the area for decades. His father was responsible for the first megachurch in the area, and the disastrous failure of same – money, power and bizarre beliefs. They would routinely have the likes of Rodney Howard Brown (the laughing guy) for weeks at a time.
Of course, Todd Bentley was a nut even by their standards, but Stephen must have been desperate to get his new “church” off the ground. They may as well have been practicing voodoo.
http://ignitedchurch.com/pastor-stephen-strader
“Stephen was awarded an Honorary Doctorate degree in Signs and Wonders, from the International Miracle Institute, Pensacola, FL.”
Well, at least he noted it was an “honorary” degree, lol. How do you teach “signs and wonders???”
Lot’s of independent network christianity aka 3rd wave charismatic churches are trying… Look up Bethel, Redding, School of Supernatural Ministry and/or the many, many clones of the same; “schools” proliferating everywhere (including my backyard…) Of course you have to pay to go and so, said churches/administrators of the “schools” are making a living (sometimes handsomely) off a lot of gullible young people who come out thinking they’re God’s elite force (they really do think they have more of the Holy Spirit than anyone else) … and they wander into our churches as incantation mumbling, brainwashed loons who think they can heal anything and everybody and show off their special “powers” at will – (except of course they can’t as I personally witnessed).
Is it ok to ask what you personally witnessed (or didn’t witness, as the case may be :-)?
A “team” and their leader from one of these “schools” lead our winter bible school… the last night they ran a prayer tunnel… and most of us obediently went through it (I did not – I prefer not to have quasi witchdoctors pray over me and impart who knows what spirit upon me) At any rate, a women in our church who has some kind of deformed ankle or degenerative ankle/foot condition went through and they were praying hard lol, some groveling on the ground caressing the leg, etc trying for all their worth to heal this thing. (their leader had boasted previous nights about the many times he had prayed legs to grow!..yes that parlor trick) Guess what, she has the exact same foot and physical issue she had 4mo ago but this kook team is long gone of course, “graduated” and their quasi-witch doctor teacher is recruiting the next batch (I follow the school on FB) I strongly suspect the whole thing is intentionally or even unintentionally mostly a fraud, for the leader/teacher’s financial gain/subsistence Makes me sick and angry.
So it sounds like every other scam – promise the miracle, pray for the miracle, then either 1. promise the miracle is just days away, or 2. blame the victim for not accepting the miracle, and then disappear to the next place on the list.
Is that close?
Yes, I think that’s what is probably going on. It’s a bit like a ponzi scheme… I hope they never come back but that probably means they’ll get to move on to the next group of gullibles… maybe we should have them back regularly, but line up a group of people to ask them questions or hound them a little like reporters, to expose the con… but that might not go well either. I very much doubt this “teacher” or his team would be very open to hard questions. I assume they’d probably get pretty angry and defensive and probably put on a victim schtick…
I wonder if the Founder’s Bible has all the miracles of Jesus Christ excised from the manuscript like the Bible Thomas Jefferson compiled. And are Benjamin Franklin’s theistic views given space?
Barton reveals much more of himself than he does any pro-choice mindset. I have been a liberal Democrat my whole life. I visit a lot of liberal blogs and websites on a daily basis, and have done for over 20 years, and I have never heard anyone come close to suggesting such a response. And if anyone with even a kernel of credibility had advocated for such a thing, someone else would have reported it. Barton is suffering delusions of grandeur if he thinks that liberals are as obsessed with the issue as the Right is.
The majority of Americans are, more or less, in favor of abortion rights, though this breaks down, when you get in the weeds, into different segments depending on whether you are talking about “first trimester-only” versus “unfettered”. And for some, but by no means all on the Left, it is their most animating issue. But it’s just one issue.
More to the point, Blue States don’t talk about secession. It’s not part of any solution politically wounded liberals would come up with for any issue. There’s no movement to establish a “liberals only” enclave as there is for “whites only” enclaves on the Right. California is about 10% of the nation’s population. Does Barton think liberal Californians would actually push to secede? Why? Everyone wants to go to California. Besides, where are all the Red State women going to get their abortions if they outlaw it in Alabama and Texas (and good luck with pushing that through for long in Texas)? Would California want to drive those women to New York?
Liberals generally have no fear of Red States seceding, because Blue States contribute far more to the federal coffers than the Red States. And Red States rely far more on federal money than Blue States do.
No one in California or anywhere else in Blue State Land has any desire to pick up a gun to fight with Red Staters over this or any other issue. But I’m sure that Barton is simply trying to terrify the Christian Right and pick up mucho bucks in the process. Can anyone picture Jim Bakker in camouflage battling the Godless Illinoisan Rebels? Now that might be the best argument for war: the chance to see that.
Well said, Jeff, from another life-long liberal Democrat.
Also, somebody’s gotta mention that the not-a-PhD David Barton, is called Dr. David Barton on the video titles. That little rascal is persistent.
Is there a single sane person among that group?
No. Not even close.
Alex Jones must have been busy that day.
I do not like much of the company that Joyner keeps, but there is a lot that is good about some of Rick’s books. For the record, I do believe that what Joyner is saying will shortly come to pass. Not because he is a great guy, but because other things he has said in the past have come to pass. For instance, in his original prophecy book written way back in 1987 he talks about communists and radical Muslims coming together to protest and start some wars. I read this over 10 years ago. Then we had the Arab Spring. There are others things he said that also came to pass as well in that book. So I am saying what I am saying off of his record. So far, Joyner is the only one I can find who has not been basically 100 percent wrong.
Beyond that, the rest of these guys all have major problems. Barton is just throwing out conjecture and he is a lying white-washed tomb as Warren has done such a fine job documenting. Joyner’s biggest problem is that he does not take what he claims God shows him and then apply it to who he promotes and hangs around with. In these ways there is huge hypocrisy and it bothers me very much. None the less he is more humble than anyone else I have seen and he occasionally states things that speak to me in deeply meaningful ways.
People find lots of “fulfilled prophesies” in Nostradamus’ writings as well, not to mention the daily horoscopes. Confirmation bias goes a long way to convincing those eager to believe.
People find lots of “fulfilled prophesies” in Nostradamus’ writings as well, not to mention the daily horoscopes. Confirmation bias goes a long way to convincing those eager to believe.
Prophets are similar to a broken clock. They’re right twice a day.
scary stuff.
Barton appears to be on a media/social media blitz lately, with his Shapiro, Dobson, and other recent appearances.
my prayers for truth to triumph will continue.
and my prayers for our president to not get on this bandwagon also. with the election next year I think it would not bode well for him to align himself with these kooks.
He’ll pander to anyone he thinks will vote for him. See also: transgenders in the military.