You can watch what Dr. Oz puts on his website here.
On the show, International Healing Foundation’s Chris Doyle said what he does is mainstream therapy and he said IHF doesn’t discourage gayness. This is astounding. Let’s remember what IHF does:
IHF and other reparative therapists tell clients that their same sex attraction is due to abuse or trauma at the hands of the same sex parent. I have seen families literally ripped apart by this kind of “intervention.” There is nothing supportive about these interventions.
Later Julie Hamilton came on and said that reparative therapists don’t stigmatize same-sex attraction. One of the opposing guests (Brad Lamm) said she was not being honest. He is certainly closer to correct. Just check out a few articles on the NARTH website:
Health Risks: Fisting and other Homosexual Practices – Assumes the health risks of certain practices are associated with sexual orientation.
Interview with Andy Comiskey – SSA is a pathology
Fathers of Male Homosexuals – The problem is with the father.
Homosexuality 101 – Julie Hamilton’s article blaming fathers
Reparative therapists on this show tried to make what they do about choice of a benign option. However, their model of homosexuality renders that strategy less than honest. When one teaches that same-sex attraction is always wrapped up in abuse, and/or a dysfunctional family, one cannot expect to be taken seriously or calmly.
And why, precisely does “one of these” have to be “identity disorder”? Or anything else you listed? Do tell.
Ken says: “the APA has also said homosexuality is a normal variation of sexuality.”
Yes, human sexuality can be expressed across a broad spectrum of behaviors. However, millennia of human experience, across many cultures, has determined that some behaviors are detrimental to individual health, sense of fulfillment (e.g. gays seeking multiple repetitious encounters and “over years used sexual intercourse with more masculine men as a means to repair my lack of masculinity”), detrimental to key relationships (e.g. family, hoping for propagation of the next generation), and ultimately detrimental to basic structures of a civilization. Cultural mores (moral codes) are formed to assure the future of the culture itself. History has shown time and again that sexual anarchy and family disintegration has preceded the fall of even the greatest empires. In other words, we can’t do anything we want just because “we can” without regard for consequences “to the seventh generation.”
DAVE G – Don’t just quote authorities, but find us some data that validate your statements. Ugandans right now are making this claim while their AIDS rate is climbing due to heterosexuals. Gays are too small of a group to have the impact you propose.
As a born again believer in Christ, and one who has always been attracted to the same sex, I decided to watch the show this afternoon with my parents.
My therapist introduced me to Reparative Therapy this Spring. I explained it to my parents, having no idea how hurt they would become (they never let on that they actually were hurt initially, especially my father). Having studied the subject over the summer, I came to highly suspect the theory, especially having witnessed so many high-profile “ex-gay” success stories, which then turned out to be bunk.
Having recently finished Justin Lee’s “Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate,” I have become convinced that the theory *actually is* bunk. His chapter “Justin in Exgayland” confirmed my suspicions regarding “ex-gays” and Reparative Drive Therapy, especially since Justin’s childhood was entirely absent of the very hermeneutic for the theory.
I don’t recall anyone asking Aaron McQuade (the bald gentleman on the Dr. Oz show this afternoon) if he still finds men attractive, though he claims to have been helped by Reparative Therapy, and is now married to a woman. For me, that is the key issue. Not that a same-sex attracted person could find someone of the opposite sex attractive, and even marry that individual, but whether an attraction for the same sex is retained.
David – thanks for reminding me about that piece. I will link to it.
Just to take up another point made by DAVE G: there is no reason why the fact of their being LGB people having relationships should threaten marriage and the family or constitute ‘sexual anarchy’. In fact it could be argued that the push for ‘marriage equality’ is in fact something that could serve well the cause of social cohesion.
It is the case that many heterosexuals have multiple partners and many gay people do not. We should, as far as it is appropriate to do so, evaluate the contribution people make to ‘society’ on the basis of their behaviour and treatment of others, not on that of their (intrinsic, many would argue) sexuality. That is surely the proper moral-philosophical (and thus, IMHO, Christian) approach.
I can’t fully understand why people still look for a single cause of homosexuality –e.g. dysfunctional father-son relationship. APA admits there’s a combination of biological and environmental (experiential) factors involved. One of these has to be identity disorder, which is often –though not always –traced to a lack of mother, father, children natural home environment. Another is a natural “hardwired to connect” (cf. Dartmouth study) propensity toward other persons who exhibit admired characteristics. But the more prominent factor is the conditioned association of sexual urges with same-sex intercourse, with strong neural imprint established through one or more highly-emotional experiences: from empathic response to pornography to actual same-sex intercourse. I’m convinced this constellation of factors needs careful scientific study in order to clarify the true nature of homosexuality. It is not “inborn.”
Doyle was all “compassion and tolerance.” Yet, he is the author of a piece in WND titled “Warning to homosexual youth: It gets worse.” Moreover, when they flashed “Christopher Doyle, MA” on the screen, they didn’t know that his graduate degree was from Liberty U. As for Wyler, he is just a pimp. What? Is that too unkind? For money, he traffics in misery.
Just to take up another point made by DAVE G: there is no reason why the fact of their being LGB people having relationships should threaten marriage and the family or constitute ‘sexual anarchy’. In fact it could be argued that the push for ‘marriage equality’ is in fact something that could serve well the cause of social cohesion.
It is the case that many heterosexuals have multiple partners and many gay people do not. We should, as far as it is appropriate to do so, evaluate the contribution people make to ‘society’ on the basis of their behaviour and treatment of others, not on that of their (intrinsic, many would argue) sexuality. That is surely the proper moral-philosophical (and thus, IMHO, Christian) approach.
DAVE G says:
December 5, 2012 at 11:08 am
“Yes, human sexuality can be expressed across a broad spectrum of behaviors”
Homosexuality is not simply a “behaviour.”
.”However, millennia of human experience, across many cultures, has determined that some behaviors are detrimental …”
Are you attempting to claim that homosexuality (unlike heterosexuality) is “detrimental” to individual and/or society?
“History has shown time and again that sexual anarchy and family disintegration has preceded the fall of even the greatest empires.”
Actually it hasn’t. In fact I have yet to see anyone give any substantive evidence that this claim is correct. Of those who have tried, their same reasoning/evidence could be used to show that christianity had a greater hand in the “downfall of the greatest empires” (although the ancient roman empire is really the only one they talk about), than “sexual anarchy.”
Ken says: “the APA has also said homosexuality is a normal variation of sexuality.”
Yes, human sexuality can be expressed across a broad spectrum of behaviors. However, millennia of human experience, across many cultures, has determined that some behaviors are detrimental to individual health, sense of fulfillment (e.g. gays seeking multiple repetitious encounters and “over years used sexual intercourse with more masculine men as a means to repair my lack of masculinity”), detrimental to key relationships (e.g. family, hoping for propagation of the next generation), and ultimately detrimental to basic structures of a civilization. Cultural mores (moral codes) are formed to assure the future of the culture itself. History has shown time and again that sexual anarchy and family disintegration has preceded the fall of even the greatest empires. In other words, we can’t do anything we want just because “we can” without regard for consequences “to the seventh generation.”
DAVE G – Don’t just quote authorities, but find us some data that validate your statements. Ugandans right now are making this claim while their AIDS rate is climbing due to heterosexuals. Gays are too small of a group to have the impact you propose.
DAVE G says:
December 5, 2012 at 11:08 am
“Yes, human sexuality can be expressed across a broad spectrum of behaviors”
Homosexuality is not simply a “behaviour.”
.”However, millennia of human experience, across many cultures, has determined that some behaviors are detrimental …”
Are you attempting to claim that homosexuality (unlike heterosexuality) is “detrimental” to individual and/or society?
“History has shown time and again that sexual anarchy and family disintegration has preceded the fall of even the greatest empires.”
Actually it hasn’t. In fact I have yet to see anyone give any substantive evidence that this claim is correct. Of those who have tried, their same reasoning/evidence could be used to show that christianity had a greater hand in the “downfall of the greatest empires” (although the ancient roman empire is really the only one they talk about), than “sexual anarchy.”
Ken- as of DSM V there is no such thing as GID.
Ken- as of DSM V there is no such thing as GID.
hmmm… it would appear that the old e-mail address I was using to post is being blocked on your site, Warren. (attempts don’t even show up as being moderated just never appear).
DAVE G says:
November 30, 2012 at 11:14 am
“APA admits there’s a combination of biological and environmental (experiential) factors involved. ”
the APA has also said homosexuality is a normal variation of sexuality. And while it is known there are a variety of factors that determine a person’s orientation, it is not known exactly what or how they interact, nor that the factors are the same for different people. And there certainly isn’t any proof that gender identity disorder (GID) “causes” homosexuality, or is even one of the factors that contributes to a person’s orientation. A correlation between GID and homosexuality could easily be caused by ONE (or more) of the factors being common to both. However, this result would not mean that GID “causes” homosexuality or vice versa.
hmmm… it would appear that the old e-mail address I was using to post is being blocked on your site, Warren. (attempts don’t even show up as being moderated just never appear).
DAVE G says:
November 30, 2012 at 11:14 am
“APA admits there’s a combination of biological and environmental (experiential) factors involved. ”
the APA has also said homosexuality is a normal variation of sexuality. And while it is known there are a variety of factors that determine a person’s orientation, it is not known exactly what or how they interact, nor that the factors are the same for different people. And there certainly isn’t any proof that gender identity disorder (GID) “causes” homosexuality, or is even one of the factors that contributes to a person’s orientation. A correlation between GID and homosexuality could easily be caused by ONE (or more) of the factors being common to both. However, this result would not mean that GID “causes” homosexuality or vice versa.
testing.
testing.
Patrocles- I don’t exactly have a lot of experience with porn, particularly gay male porn, but you know perhaps there’s a gazillion different subgroups of all kinds of porn ctering to every possible taste and every possible fetish. And you have not yet shown a correlation between homosexuality and identity disorder, let alone causation from any correlation.
Patrocles- I don’t exactly have a lot of experience with porn, particularly gay male porn, but you know perhaps there’s a gazillion different subgroups of all kinds of porn ctering to every possible taste and every possible fetish. And you have not yet shown a correlation between homosexuality and identity disorder, let alone causation from any correlation.
Boo,
of course I would like a serious study about the question how often homosexuality is correlated with a deep-felt lack of masculinity. And of course, it’s difficult to find a “neutral” professor who wouldn’t try to manipulate the design of the study in order to get the results he looks for. (That’s one of the reasons I was interested in Dr. Throckmorton!)
My most “quantitative” approach refers to gay pornographical stories. You know perhaps that there’s a subgroup of stories about “body transformation” (how men, being or becoming gay, get at the same time a more masculine body, by medical or magical means)? It’s perhaps possible to find out how great a part that subgroup plays within the whole of gay pornographical stories.)
Last note: I think we have to dissect the parts of the Nicolosi theory and study them separate. You can support the correlation of homosexuality and identity disorder and at the same time have quite different ideas about how that correlation develops. (I don’t think that fathers, or mothers, are sooo important.)
Boo,
of course I would like a serious study about the question how often homosexuality is correlated with a deep-felt lack of masculinity. And of course, it’s difficult to find a “neutral” professor who wouldn’t try to manipulate the design of the study in order to get the results he looks for. (That’s one of the reasons I was interested in Dr. Throckmorton!)
My most “quantitative” approach refers to gay pornographical stories. You know perhaps that there’s a subgroup of stories about “body transformation” (how men, being or becoming gay, get at the same time a more masculine body, by medical or magical means)? It’s perhaps possible to find out how great a part that subgroup plays within the whole of gay pornographical stories.)
Last note: I think we have to dissect the parts of the Nicolosi theory and study them separate. You can support the correlation of homosexuality and identity disorder and at the same time have quite different ideas about how that correlation develops. (I don’t think that fathers, or mothers, are sooo important.)
I suspect that there are male heterosexuals who take a rather ‘aggressive’ attitude to women, maybe because they lack the optimal elements of ‘femininity’ in their psychological make-up. That said, I don’t think we should confuse ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’ on the one hand with particular sexual orientations on the other – they may perhaps be some kind of correlation (then again there may not be … people like Scott Lively. for example. often go on about ‘macho’ gays – it’s one of his favourite themes – then of course completely destroys any valid point he might be making by the most ridiculous generalizations!), but they are not the same thing. Confusing them is just another source of potential harm to human persons, especially those who, for whatever reason, elect to have so-called ‘therapy’.
@ Pat
I do admire your candour, by the way. And, yes, you DO ‘exist in your own right’, and possess intrinsic dignity and worth, simply by virtue of your being a human person. Such is true for each and every one of us.
DAVE G:
Do you think that the more prominent factor in the causation of heterosexuality could be the conditioned association of sexual urges with opposite-sex intercourse, with strong neural imprint established through one or more highly-emotional experiences: from empathic response to pornography to actual opposite-sex intercourse?
You speak of “all the data and personal testimonies of both gays and ex-gays” supporting your conclusions – although they sound to me more like dogmas than conclusions. Where did you get your data from?
I suspect that there are male heterosexuals who take a rather ‘aggressive’ attitude to women, maybe because they lack the optimal elements of ‘femininity’ in their psychological make-up. That said, I don’t think we should confuse ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’ on the one hand with particular sexual orientations on the other – they may perhaps be some kind of correlation (then again there may not be … people like Scott Lively. for example. often go on about ‘macho’ gays – it’s one of his favourite themes – then of course completely destroys any valid point he might be making by the most ridiculous generalizations!), but they are not the same thing. Confusing them is just another source of potential harm to human persons, especially those who, for whatever reason, elect to have so-called ‘therapy’.
@ Pat
I do admire your candour, by the way. And, yes, you DO ‘exist in your own right’, and possess intrinsic dignity and worth, simply by virtue of your being a human person. Such is true for each and every one of us.
DAVE G:
Do you think that the more prominent factor in the causation of heterosexuality could be the conditioned association of sexual urges with opposite-sex intercourse, with strong neural imprint established through one or more highly-emotional experiences: from empathic response to pornography to actual opposite-sex intercourse?
You speak of “all the data and personal testimonies of both gays and ex-gays” supporting your conclusions – although they sound to me more like dogmas than conclusions. Where did you get your data from?
I don’t doubt that some gay men could have some kind of identity disorder. Gay men are people after all, and some people have some kind of identity disorder. What I doubt is that identity disorder causes men to be gay. Gay men in reparative therapy are a self selected population. To show causation you would have to show both a much higher prevalence of identity disorder in gay men and that it caused the homosexuality, as opposed to some fathers recognizing signs of homosexuality in their sons and becoming distant as a result. I see no good evidence that either of those has been established.
I don’t doubt that some gay men could have some kind of identity disorder. Gay men are people after all, and some people have some kind of identity disorder. What I doubt is that identity disorder causes men to be gay. Gay men in reparative therapy are a self selected population. To show causation you would have to show both a much higher prevalence of identity disorder in gay men and that it caused the homosexuality, as opposed to some fathers recognizing signs of homosexuality in their sons and becoming distant as a result. I see no good evidence that either of those has been established.
Dave G,
that’s by far the best comment I’ve read here, for years.
May I add a personal remark. Boo doubted the existence of “identity disorder” in gay men. Now, I myself suffer from a lack of masculine identity, and I have over years used sexual intercourse with more masculine men as a means to repair my lack of masculinity. I know that “I do exist”. And as that was my problem, I of course paid attention whenever I found the “symptoms” described by others – so I know that I don’t exist alone.
Dave G,
that’s by far the best comment I’ve read here, for years.
May I add a personal remark. Boo doubted the existence of “identity disorder” in gay men. Now, I myself suffer from a lack of masculine identity, and I have over years used sexual intercourse with more masculine men as a means to repair my lack of masculinity. I know that “I do exist”. And as that was my problem, I of course paid attention whenever I found the “symptoms” described by others – so I know that I don’t exist alone.
So, a lot of empty assertions. Gotcha.
Let me try that again: fast typing leads to typos.
Boo: –Simply because all the data and personal testimonies of both gays and ex-gays support these conclusions. Oh, I did omit the observation that a contributing factor is that homosexuality is offered as a possibility to the current generation. For prior generations it was not an option except for those who wandered or were led into perversions of human sexuality. Go ahead, design a study based on pure scientific parameters and see what you get.
–There, that’s better.
Boo: –Simply because all the data and personal testimonies of both gays and ex-gays support these conclusions. Oh, I did omit the observation that a contributing factor is that homosexuality is offered as a possibility to the current generation. For prior generations it was not an option excewpt for those who wandered or were led into perversions of human sexuality. God ahead, design a study based on pure scientific parameters and see what you get.
And why, precisely does “one of these” have to be “identity disorder”? Or anything else you listed? Do tell.
So, a lot of empty assertions. Gotcha.
Let me try that again: fast typing leads to typos.
Boo: –Simply because all the data and personal testimonies of both gays and ex-gays support these conclusions. Oh, I did omit the observation that a contributing factor is that homosexuality is offered as a possibility to the current generation. For prior generations it was not an option except for those who wandered or were led into perversions of human sexuality. Go ahead, design a study based on pure scientific parameters and see what you get.
–There, that’s better.
Boo: –Simply because all the data and personal testimonies of both gays and ex-gays support these conclusions. Oh, I did omit the observation that a contributing factor is that homosexuality is offered as a possibility to the current generation. For prior generations it was not an option excewpt for those who wandered or were led into perversions of human sexuality. God ahead, design a study based on pure scientific parameters and see what you get.
I can’t fully understand why people still look for a single cause of homosexuality –e.g. dysfunctional father-son relationship. APA admits there’s a combination of biological and environmental (experiential) factors involved. One of these has to be identity disorder, which is often –though not always –traced to a lack of mother, father, children natural home environment. Another is a natural “hardwired to connect” (cf. Dartmouth study) propensity toward other persons who exhibit admired characteristics. But the more prominent factor is the conditioned association of sexual urges with same-sex intercourse, with strong neural imprint established through one or more highly-emotional experiences: from empathic response to pornography to actual same-sex intercourse. I’m convinced this constellation of factors needs careful scientific study in order to clarify the true nature of homosexuality. It is not “inborn.”
David – thanks for reminding me about that piece. I will link to it.
Doyle was all “compassion and tolerance.” Yet, he is the author of a piece in WND titled “Warning to homosexual youth: It gets worse.” Moreover, when they flashed “Christopher Doyle, MA” on the screen, they didn’t know that his graduate degree was from Liberty U. As for Wyler, he is just a pimp. What? Is that too unkind? For money, he traffics in misery.
As a born again believer in Christ, and one who has always been attracted to the same sex, I decided to watch the show this afternoon with my parents.
My therapist introduced me to Reparative Therapy this Spring. I explained it to my parents, having no idea how hurt they would become (they never let on that they actually were hurt initially, especially my father). Having studied the subject over the summer, I came to highly suspect the theory, especially having witnessed so many high-profile “ex-gay” success stories, which then turned out to be bunk.
Having recently finished Justin Lee’s “Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate,” I have become convinced that the theory *actually is* bunk. His chapter “Justin in Exgayland” confirmed my suspicions regarding “ex-gays” and Reparative Drive Therapy, especially since Justin’s childhood was entirely absent of the very hermeneutic for the theory.
I don’t recall anyone asking Aaron McQuade (the bald gentleman on the Dr. Oz show this afternoon) if he still finds men attractive, though he claims to have been helped by Reparative Therapy, and is now married to a woman. For me, that is the key issue. Not that a same-sex attracted person could find someone of the opposite sex attractive, and even marry that individual, but whether an attraction for the same sex is retained.