I am late to this story which unfolded on Tuesday, Human Rights Day. The Obama Administration called on the rest of the world to decriminalize homosexuality, punctuating this call with remarks from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Geneva. The full text of these remarks are here. I am going to pull out some comments that are significant to me.
Clinton directly makes the case that laws criminalizing homosexuality are violations of human rights.
It is violation of human rights when people are beaten or killed because of their sexual orientation, or because they do not conform to cultural norms about how men and women should look or behave. It is a violation of human rights when governments declare it illegal to be gay, or allow those who harm gay people to go unpunished. It is a violation of human rights when lesbian or transgendered women are subjected to so-called corrective rape, or forcibly subjected to hormone treatments, or when people are murdered after public calls for violence toward gays, or when they are forced to flee their nations and seek asylum in other lands to save their lives. And it is a violation of human rights when life-saving care is withheld from people because they are gay, or equal access to justice is denied to people because they are gay, or public spaces are out of bounds to people because they are gay. No matter what we look like, where we come from, or who we are, we are all equally entitled to our human rights and dignity.
Then she dispels the myth that homosexuality is a Western invention.
The second issue is a question of whether homosexuality arises from a particular part of the world. Some seem to believe it is a Western phenomenon, and therefore people outside the West have grounds to reject it. Well, in reality, gay people are born into and belong to every society in the world. They are all ages, all races, all faiths; they are doctors and teachers, farmers and bankers, soldiers and athletes; and whether we know it, or whether we acknowledge it, they are our family, our friends, and our neighbors.
Being gay is not a Western invention; it is a human reality. And protecting the human rights of all people, gay or straight, is not something that only Western governments do. South Africa’s constitution, written in the aftermath of Apartheid, protects the equality of all citizens, including gay people. In Colombia and Argentina, the rights of gays are also legally protected. In Nepal, the supreme court has ruled that equal rights apply to LGBT citizens. The Government of Mongolia has committed to pursue new legislation that will tackle anti-gay discrimination.
Clinton directly addressed the perceived conflict between gay rights to live freely with religious beliefs.
The third, and perhaps most challenging, issue arises when people cite religious or cultural values as a reason to violate or not to protect the human rights of LGBT citizens. This is not unlike the justification offered for violent practices towards women like honor killings, widow burning, or female genital mutilation. Some people still defend those practices as part of a cultural tradition. But violence toward women isn’t cultural; it’s criminal. Likewise with slavery, what was once justified as sanctioned by God is now properly reviled as an unconscionable violation of human rights.
In each of these cases, we came to learn that no practice or tradition trumps the human rights that belong to all of us. And this holds true for inflicting violence on LGBT people, criminalizing their status or behavior, expelling them from their families and communities, or tacitly or explicitly accepting their killing.
Of course, it bears noting that rarely are cultural and religious traditions and teachings actually in conflict with the protection of human rights. Indeed, our religion and our culture are sources of compassion and inspiration toward our fellow human beings. It was not only those who’ve justified slavery who leaned on religion, it was also those who sought to abolish it. And let us keep in mind that our commitments to protect the freedom of religion and to defend the dignity of LGBT people emanate from a common source. For many of us, religious belief and practice is a vital source of meaning and identity, and fundamental to who we are as people. And likewise, for most of us, the bonds of love and family that we forge are also vital sources of meaning and identity. And caring for others is an expression of what it means to be fully human. It is because the human experience is universal that human rights are universal and cut across all religions and cultures.
Clinton seems on the mark to say that this conflict is challenging. Judging from the reaction of religious right talking heads, I think the challenge is right here in the USA.
Clinton then appeals to the Golden Rule. I like this.
Finally, progress comes from being willing to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. We need to ask ourselves, “How would it feel if it were a crime to love the person I love? How would it feel to be discriminated against for something about myself that I cannot change?” This challenge applies to all of us as we reflect upon deeply held beliefs, as we work to embrace tolerance and respect for the dignity of all persons, and as we engage humbly with those with whom we disagree in the hope of creating greater understanding.
Clinton here is not calling for anyone to agree that homosexual behavior is in line with their religious beliefs. However, she is calling for people to act in accord with their religious beliefs about reciprocal treatment. If you don’t want to be discriminated against for something intrinsic to you, then don’t do it to others.
Joe,
From several other dictionaries:
Inherent:
From the “Talking Heads”: They have a valid point.
Clinton’s-faulty premise-homosexuality is inherent-skews the whole article…
From Webster: intrinsic-inherent
From Webster: inherint-derive from parents
So, homosexuality is like eye color, you inherint it from your parents?
That’s good science!
Christ to the woman caught in adultery “go and sin no more…unless something worse happen to you”
What could be worse than being stoned to death?
Anyone?
JCF
You are absolutely right about Maazi and his “brethren”. I think they want isolation though and if they pursue this course of action they will get it. Maazi seems to think oil will save them – LOL
(Of course, I do support ‘Maazi NCO’s’ right to function as an opposition politician without fear of unjust treatment, just as I support the right of Frank Mugisha and others to advocate respect for the fundamental human rights of LGBT Ugandans. It could be argued that the Public Order Management Bill threatens ‘Maazi’s’ rights, just as the Bahati Bill clearly threatens Frank’s.)
Don’t make your children have to pay for your sins, Maazi. It’s in your own enlightened self-interest, that you respect the HUMAN RIGHTS of your LGBT citizens, as the world WILL come to insist. The longer you delay, the more you sentence your children to isolation in the global community, and the inevitable deprivations that will come w/ that isolation.
I appeal to your self-interest—if your empathy for your LGBT brothers & sisters is lacking. (I pray you are capable of the latter)
Talking of ‘bogus’: isn’t the name ‘Maazi NCO’ somewhat ‘bogus’?!
Also on the ‘bogus’ front: ‘Maazi NCO’ is all for human rights when it comes to his own (even though there is nothing ‘intrimsic’ about being a member of an opposition political party … one is not born a member of the ——-, after all).
So where did you study in the States then. ‘Maazi’?
Zoe — where do “Ex-Gays” enter into this? Was that an allegation made about Natalie Johnson in the video? (YouTube isn’t working for me just at the moment.)
Half a truth is half a lie.
Perhaps (!) there has been casual male-male sex everywhere in every time. But “homosexuality” in the modern sense – sex connected with romantic love in a long(er)-term relationship between men regarding each other as equal – that’s indeed an invention of the 19th century “Western world”.
I’ve read some extremely interesting books about different kinds of male-male sex in different tribal societies. But I’ve never found any cultural anthropologist who would underwrite Ms. Clinton’s sayings.
Americans are often ridiculed because they naively believe that everyone is basically like them (or ought to be!). In the case of Ms. Clinton, the ridicule is earned.
Hmmmm….
I am thinking this whole Uganda drama was a good thing. It brought things into bold relief. It gives the administration an opportunity to take a stand.
I am not a public policy and diplomatic relations guy, so I don’t know how the whole funding piece gets turned on and turned off in such situations.
It seems confusing to me when we are dealing with Muslim or Christian or Secular nation states…I am not sure how our assistance to Saudi Arabia is linked to human rights for women (vote, drive a car, wear clothing of their choice, etc.) for example.
My hunch is that the policy will be overlooked with countries we have the least likelihood of influencing, but are most strategically important to have some financial foothold.
My hunch is the policy will be more rigorously applied with countries that are the most financially dependent upon us and are least likely to be strategically important.
That is the way it has seemed to me with other attempts to foster human rights.
Given the activities noted on this blog about Uganda, this is a very good move.
Bogus propaganda !!! There is nothing “intrinsic” about gayism and we reject the libertarian ideology completely. Not only do we object with gayism, we are determined to eventually codify those objections into law in line with wishes of the Ugandan people.
Maazi,
And for that I thank merciful God!
The woman is just playing to Western audiences, appealing to liberals. The deviant gay vote is needed in year 2012. Like John Nagenda said recently, we do are not a colony of the western world. As far as I am in a position of authority, I will never allow my country –the pearl of africa—to become a colony of euro-american gay lobbyists and their severely compromised western governments. Clinton should first start her promotion of gayism with the pro-American royalist client rulers of those oil-rich fiefdoms in the arabian gulf. BTW, I am encouraged with what is happening in Nigeria and my own nation (Uganda) with regards to gayism and hope that other african nations will have the courage to call the bluff of that arrogant woman Mrs Clinton.
Thro (kinda like bro) the video from Zoe is about the Macys dept store employee getting fired for refusing a trans woman from using the ladies dressing room. I don’t want to spoil the video as it has kind of a surprise in it. If you are never able to access YouTube then let us know and we can summarize it for you.
Very encouraged by her remarks. And sad to think it took almost a year and a half after Exodus Board member Don Schmierer went to Uganda for Exodus to officially oppose criminalization.
We are NOT the United Christian States of America.
If elected, Rick Perry would NOT be President of the Christians.
Only, Jesus seems to have preached to his followers to do the first step (whereas Warren seems rather more preaching to his opponents).
One could make an argument that homophobia is intrinsic to people. So the first step would be to protect homophobes against discrimination (but of course ask them to return the favours), Isn’t it?
Only, Jesus seems to have preached to his followers to do the first step (whereas Warren seems rather more preaching to his opponents).
One could make an argument that homophobia is intrinsic to people. So the first step would be to protect homophobes against discrimination (but of course ask them to return the favours), Isn’t it?
Well gosh, Warren. Do you REALLY want to associated with the ideas thrown around by radical activists like that crazy Jesus character. You know what happened to him!!
Well gosh, Warren. Do you REALLY want to associated with the ideas thrown around by radical activists like that crazy Jesus character. You know what happened to him!!
(David Bahati would, I suspect, like both bills; he probably has his eye on promotion within the NRM, and thus wants the NRM to keep its hold on power.)
Back to Uganda and those ‘ugly siblings’, the Bahati Bill and the Public Order Management Bill: a potential fatal flaw in ‘Maazi NCO MP’s’ political calculations is that if one is passed the other could go with it. After all, the ‘donor countries” human rights agenda relates to both bills; if the Bahati Bill is passed and general budget support disappears, there will less ‘financial incentive’ for the Government to hold back on the POMB.
‘Maazi’ might get his ‘gay-bashing’ bill, but he could also get the ‘Maazi-bashing’ POMB in its wake. This could be a very serious matter, as there are alarming reports of opposition politicians being arrested for ‘treason’.
(David Bahati would, I suspect, like both bills; he probably has his eye on promotion within the NRM, and thus wants the NRM to keep its hold on power.)
Back to Uganda and those ‘ugly siblings’, the Bahati Bill and the Public Order Management Bill: a potential fatal flaw in ‘Maazi NCO MP’s’ political calculations is that if one is passed the other could go with it. After all, the ‘donor countries” human rights agenda relates to both bills; if the Bahati Bill is passed and general budget support disappears, there will less ‘financial incentive’ for the Government to hold back on the POMB.
‘Maazi’ might get his ‘gay-bashing’ bill, but he could also get the ‘Maazi-bashing’ POMB in its wake. This could be a very serious matter, as there are alarming reports of opposition politicians being arrested for ‘treason’.
@ Zoe
It’s a universal problem, I reckon … remember what happened in peaceful, tolerant, prosperous Norway in July (except the power politics was not a factor there, of course).
(Being in the UK, I am not able to watch the clips you posted, owing to copyright restrictions, but I cam imagine what they might have contained.)
@ Zoe
It’s a universal problem, I reckon … remember what happened in peaceful, tolerant, prosperous Norway in July (except the power politics was not a factor there, of course).
(Being in the UK, I am not able to watch the clips you posted, owing to copyright restrictions, but I cam imagine what they might have contained.)
@Richard Willmer –
Well put.
In Nigeria, in Uganda, and in parts of the USA too.
I think you’d find that, if fewer barriers were put in the way of gay people in UG to get testing and treatment, then the relatively small HIV transmission differential between gay Ugandans and the general population would be reduced. Playing politics with HIV will only worsen the overall situation, for reasons that I have outlined elsewhere.
Now where was in the US that ‘Maazi NCO MP’ studied? And to which political party (that – arguably rightly – opposes the Public Order Management Bill) does he belong? No, no … I respect ‘Maazi’s’ ‘right’ to squirt homophobic venom on foreigners’ blogs from behind a pseudonym.
All these big words to support sodomites who are the most prominent vectors of medicine-resistant STDS and second most prominent vectors of HIV/AIDS after intravenous drug addicts. The Bahati Bill shall become law no matter what you say. We are working to ensure that it happens, regardless of the rantings and ravings of Clinton and her liberal crew in Washington DC. No foreign nation will exercise veto power over the sovereign parliament of Uganda.
Classic intimidatory tactics…Sorry, it has no effect on me and the vast majority of Ugandan MPs. Sorry, my friend !!! Try something new and more original
Oh, c’mon man !!! If I didn’t give a damn about the blackmail threats of the baby-faced UK Prime Minister Dave-Boy Cameron and the ranting and ravings of Mrs Hilary Clinton, then what makes you think I will take any threat from you seriously? The “world” is not restricted to powerful Western nations. We in Uganda are not going to listen to the Mafiaoso Community of Western Nations even when they make dubious claims about speaking on behalf of the “world”.
Speaking about neo-colonial bullying…
The Nigerian legislators actually slapped Cameron across the mouth by amending their anti-gay marriage bill to include harsher penalties for gayism and then passed it into law. According to the French news agency, “AFP”, many of Nigerian lawmakers have since dismissed Clinton’s speech as rubbish and some of them are saying “she can go to hell with her aid money”. Here in Uganda, we are preparing a nice gift for Clinton and Obama. I hope they love it when we eventually unveil it for all to see.
Sorry my friend, your Al Capone intimidatory tactics failed….Try something different 🙂 🙂
One problem may be that religion can too often get mixed with superstition, political power-play, tribalism and narrow nationalism, bad science and other nasty bits and bobs to form a toxic cocktail. One sees this with things like the Bahati Bill – the product of a vile ‘soup’ of half-baked notions based on ignorance, prejudice and political shenanigans.
@Richard Willmer –
Well put.
In Nigeria, in Uganda, and in parts of the USA too.
I think you’d find that, if fewer barriers were put in the way of gay people in UG to get testing and treatment, then the relatively small HIV transmission differential between gay Ugandans and the general population would be reduced. Playing politics with HIV will only worsen the overall situation, for reasons that I have outlined elsewhere.
Now where was in the US that ‘Maazi NCO MP’ studied? And to which political party (that – arguably rightly – opposes the Public Order Management Bill) does he belong? No, no … I respect ‘Maazi’s’ ‘right’ to squirt homophobic venom on foreigners’ blogs from behind a pseudonym.
All these big words to support sodomites who are the most prominent vectors of medicine-resistant STDS and second most prominent vectors of HIV/AIDS after intravenous drug addicts. The Bahati Bill shall become law no matter what you say. We are working to ensure that it happens, regardless of the rantings and ravings of Clinton and her liberal crew in Washington DC. No foreign nation will exercise veto power over the sovereign parliament of Uganda.
Classic intimidatory tactics…Sorry, it has no effect on me and the vast majority of Ugandan MPs. Sorry, my friend !!! Try something new and more original
Oh, c’mon man !!! If I didn’t give a damn about the blackmail threats of the baby-faced UK Prime Minister Dave-Boy Cameron and the ranting and ravings of Mrs Hilary Clinton, then what makes you think I will take any threat from you seriously? The “world” is not restricted to powerful Western nations. We in Uganda are not going to listen to the Mafiaoso Community of Western Nations even when they make dubious claims about speaking on behalf of the “world”.
Speaking about neo-colonial bullying…
The Nigerian legislators actually slapped Cameron across the mouth by amending their anti-gay marriage bill to include harsher penalties for gayism and then passed it into law. According to the French news agency, “AFP”, many of Nigerian lawmakers have since dismissed Clinton’s speech as rubbish and some of them are saying “she can go to hell with her aid money”. Here in Uganda, we are preparing a nice gift for Clinton and Obama. I hope they love it when we eventually unveil it for all to see.
Sorry my friend, your Al Capone intimidatory tactics failed….Try something different 🙂 🙂
One problem may be that religion can too often get mixed with superstition, political power-play, tribalism and narrow nationalism, bad science and other nasty bits and bobs to form a toxic cocktail. One sees this with things like the Bahati Bill – the product of a vile ‘soup’ of half-baked notions based on ignorance, prejudice and political shenanigans.
@StraightGrandmother – Yes, it is.
I don’t just confine my advocacy and education to Intersex and Trans Issues. I try to deal with the same kind of religious cruelty we suffer in other areas too.
I wish there was a better word than “religious”, it’s too broad. I mean superstitious self-righteous malice in the name of some god or other. I give a serve to the Salafists as well as the Pentacostalists, I’m equal-opportunity there.
Contrast the Christian vs the Secular though on this one. Just as everyone has a capacity for Evil, so does everyone have a capacity for Good. Neither belief nor disbelief in magical beings are absolute disqualifications from doing the right thing, but I do think that superstition and cruelty are correlated. I doubt it’s causal though, the cruelty comes first, the supernatural justification afterwatds.
Meanwhile we should all do what we can. I know that Warren, now he’s been made aware of this situation, won’t let it go.
Me, I try to follow the 4 vows of the Boddhisattva, not that I’m remotely Buddhist.
The first vow:
There are too many people in the world to help them all. I vow to anyway.
Or die in the attempt. 🙂
Do what we can, locally, even if it;’s only a little. It all helps, and you really can move a mountain one teaspoonful at a time. I’ve made at least one other person of goodwill aware of this – You. You will tell others. They will tell others, and at least some of you will donate. Maybe I’ve just helped raise significant moneys for this refuge. Maybe I’ve just saved some lives. Or if not, well, I’ve tried.
Merry Christmas.
OMG Zoe, I had no idea. This is terrible. Thankfully the governor recognized the abuse for what it is and made it against the law. It takes a particularly evil person who abuse children, for money. That film she made of child witches is disgusting. I am quite disturbed, unquiet right now after having viewed all 5 videos. This is Cruelty For Christ to the max.
@StraightGrandmother – Yes, it is.
I don’t just confine my advocacy and education to Intersex and Trans Issues. I try to deal with the same kind of religious cruelty we suffer in other areas too.
I wish there was a better word than “religious”, it’s too broad. I mean superstitious self-righteous malice in the name of some god or other. I give a serve to the Salafists as well as the Pentacostalists, I’m equal-opportunity there.
Contrast the Christian vs the Secular though on this one. Just as everyone has a capacity for Evil, so does everyone have a capacity for Good. Neither belief nor disbelief in magical beings are absolute disqualifications from doing the right thing, but I do think that superstition and cruelty are correlated. I doubt it’s causal though, the cruelty comes first, the supernatural justification afterwatds.
Meanwhile we should all do what we can. I know that Warren, now he’s been made aware of this situation, won’t let it go.
Me, I try to follow the 4 vows of the Boddhisattva, not that I’m remotely Buddhist.
The first vow:
There are too many people in the world to help them all. I vow to anyway.
Or die in the attempt. 🙂
Do what we can, locally, even if it;’s only a little. It all helps, and you really can move a mountain one teaspoonful at a time. I’ve made at least one other person of goodwill aware of this – You. You will tell others. They will tell others, and at least some of you will donate. Maybe I’ve just helped raise significant moneys for this refuge. Maybe I’ve just saved some lives. Or if not, well, I’ve tried.
Merry Christmas.
OMG Zoe, I had no idea. This is terrible. Thankfully the governor recognized the abuse for what it is and made it against the law. It takes a particularly evil person who abuse children, for money. That film she made of child witches is disgusting. I am quite disturbed, unquiet right now after having viewed all 5 videos. This is Cruelty For Christ to the max.
@Warren – Evangelism at work in Africa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbGzFN_NalI&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PLCB1EE2F36DB76BDF
I know, no true Scotsman etc.
Richard,
“Also, Clinton is not telling anyone to ‘approve’ of same-sex relationships if to do would be contrary to the dictates of their conscience. She is simply making the case that unjust discrimination against LGBT persons is unacceptable.”
But those two aspects – a right of one’s own moral convictions and right of non-discrimination – are in conflict. That’s already clear in theory – as “moral conviction” means “I discriminate between good and bad”. And it’s again and again confirmed in practical conflicts.
I won’t deny that, perhaps (!), a kind of middle line could be worked out which leaves room for both aspects and at the same time limits them. But at the moment I don’t see that such a middle line could be designed and even less. that it will be realized. So, at the moment, it’s more important to protect people’s right of their own moral convictions.
There seems to be a silent assent that the stronger one (being the United States now) has a right of extortion over the weaker one (being Uganda or Malawi) – if it’s only done for a good sake. (That silent assent is the most clearly intimated by Jayhuck and JCF.)
I doubt that. As a Christ I doubt that we have to act like the bully in the town. As a rational being I believe that good cvil rights have to be based on mutual agreement which can only be worked out by debate and convincing arguments.
As for convincing arguments, I’m not much convinced by Ms. Clinton. As far as I see, she’s completely disinterested in the factual social systems she’s intruding into. She’s more projecting American needs, problems and solutions into foreigners. It’s just like the Amerivan missionaries of the 19th century: “Oh, those poor heathens there down South have to see that it’s NOT acceptable going nude in the public.”
@Warren – Evangelism at work in Africa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbGzFN_NalI&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PLCB1EE2F36DB76BDF
I know, no true Scotsman etc.
Richard,
“Also, Clinton is not telling anyone to ‘approve’ of same-sex relationships if to do would be contrary to the dictates of their conscience. She is simply making the case that unjust discrimination against LGBT persons is unacceptable.”
But those two aspects – a right of one’s own moral convictions and right of non-discrimination – are in conflict. That’s already clear in theory – as “moral conviction” means “I discriminate between good and bad”. And it’s again and again confirmed in practical conflicts.
I won’t deny that, perhaps (!), a kind of middle line could be worked out which leaves room for both aspects and at the same time limits them. But at the moment I don’t see that such a middle line could be designed and even less. that it will be realized. So, at the moment, it’s more important to protect people’s right of their own moral convictions.
There seems to be a silent assent that the stronger one (being the United States now) has a right of extortion over the weaker one (being Uganda or Malawi) – if it’s only done for a good sake. (That silent assent is the most clearly intimated by Jayhuck and JCF.)
I doubt that. As a Christ I doubt that we have to act like the bully in the town. As a rational being I believe that good cvil rights have to be based on mutual agreement which can only be worked out by debate and convincing arguments.
As for convincing arguments, I’m not much convinced by Ms. Clinton. As far as I see, she’s completely disinterested in the factual social systems she’s intruding into. She’s more projecting American needs, problems and solutions into foreigners. It’s just like the Amerivan missionaries of the 19th century: “Oh, those poor heathens there down South have to see that it’s NOT acceptable going nude in the public.”
Joe, what grade are you in?
joe has been banned from this blog before and somehow he manages to evade the filter. In any case, I will leave up his last comment because the replies to it won’t make sense otherwise. However, there is no need to continue since he won’t be continue to troll it up here.
(The Catechism of the Church implies that ‘unjust discrimination’ against LGBT persons is unacceptable; recent statements from Church leaders have been more explicit on this point.)
@ Teresa : You got there first on John 8 : 11! (I’m in moderation just now!)
Also, Clinton is not telling anyone to ‘approve’ of same-sex relationships if to do would be contrary to the dictates of their conscience. She is simply making the case that unjust discrimination against LGBT persons is unacceptable.
joe, what version of the Bible is your quote from? I’ve never seen … “unless something worse happen to you”.
BTW, joe, have you taken the time to listen to Hillary Clinton’s speech; not the “talking heads”; but her?
Joe,
From several other dictionaries:
Inherent:
Joe
I don’t think Jesus said what you say he did; see John 8 : 11. Furthermore, the idea that this woman would never had sinned again is not actually one that we, as Christian, would believe in. We are all sinners.
Drawing an implicit parallel between same-sex activity per se and adultery is not justifiable. Adultery is essentially about ‘breaking a promise’. Furthermore, it is not a criminal offence in places like Uganda, whereas consensual, ‘non-adulterous’ same-sex relationships are. This glaring ‘inconsistency’ is a factor that must be given very serious consideration whether or not Clinton is correct about the ‘intrinsic’ nature of same-sex attraction.
From the “Talking Heads”: They have a valid point.
Clinton’s-faulty premise-homosexuality is inherent-skews the whole article…
From Webster: intrinsic-inherent
From Webster: inherint-derive from parents
So, homosexuality is like eye color, you inherint it from your parents?
That’s good science!
Christ to the woman caught in adultery “go and sin no more…unless something worse happen to you”
What could be worse than being stoned to death?
Anyone?
Heh-heh. Your first sentence is undoubtedly correct, Maazi, but I don’t think this is about votes for 2012!
“Deviant gays” make up perhaps 2% of the population, and probably 70% of this gay 2% will automatically vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what happens. (As the expression goes, they’d vote for a “yellow dog” if the dog was running against a Republican.)
And in the bigger picture, the American economy will be the issue that undecided swing-voters are worried about as they try to choose between Obama and his Republican challenger.
On the other hand, you can argue that Obama is thinking about his C.V. and wants this for his “human rights legacy”. But I don’t think Obama personally expects to get more 2012 votes out of this, although I suppose it might persuade some wealthy gays to make larger donations to campaigns for Democratic congressional candidates.
Joe, what grade are you in?
joe has been banned from this blog before and somehow he manages to evade the filter. In any case, I will leave up his last comment because the replies to it won’t make sense otherwise. However, there is no need to continue since he won’t be continue to troll it up here.
JCF
You are absolutely right about Maazi and his “brethren”. I think they want isolation though and if they pursue this course of action they will get it. Maazi seems to think oil will save them – LOL
(The Catechism of the Church implies that ‘unjust discrimination’ against LGBT persons is unacceptable; recent statements from Church leaders have been more explicit on this point.)
@ Teresa : You got there first on John 8 : 11! (I’m in moderation just now!)
Also, Clinton is not telling anyone to ‘approve’ of same-sex relationships if to do would be contrary to the dictates of their conscience. She is simply making the case that unjust discrimination against LGBT persons is unacceptable.
joe, what version of the Bible is your quote from? I’ve never seen … “unless something worse happen to you”.
BTW, joe, have you taken the time to listen to Hillary Clinton’s speech; not the “talking heads”; but her?
Joe
I don’t think Jesus said what you say he did; see John 8 : 11. Furthermore, the idea that this woman would never had sinned again is not actually one that we, as Christian, would believe in. We are all sinners.
Drawing an implicit parallel between same-sex activity per se and adultery is not justifiable. Adultery is essentially about ‘breaking a promise’. Furthermore, it is not a criminal offence in places like Uganda, whereas consensual, ‘non-adulterous’ same-sex relationships are. This glaring ‘inconsistency’ is a factor that must be given very serious consideration whether or not Clinton is correct about the ‘intrinsic’ nature of same-sex attraction.
Heh-heh. Your first sentence is undoubtedly correct, Maazi, but I don’t think this is about votes for 2012!
“Deviant gays” make up perhaps 2% of the population, and probably 70% of this gay 2% will automatically vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what happens. (As the expression goes, they’d vote for a “yellow dog” if the dog was running against a Republican.)
And in the bigger picture, the American economy will be the issue that undecided swing-voters are worried about as they try to choose between Obama and his Republican challenger.
On the other hand, you can argue that Obama is thinking about his C.V. and wants this for his “human rights legacy”. But I don’t think Obama personally expects to get more 2012 votes out of this, although I suppose it might persuade some wealthy gays to make larger donations to campaigns for Democratic congressional candidates.
Interesting development: http://www.nyasatimes.com/malawi/2011/12/08/malawi-to-review-gay-ban-bad-laws-justice-minister/
(Of course, I do support ‘Maazi NCO’s’ right to function as an opposition politician without fear of unjust treatment, just as I support the right of Frank Mugisha and others to advocate respect for the fundamental human rights of LGBT Ugandans. It could be argued that the Public Order Management Bill threatens ‘Maazi’s’ rights, just as the Bahati Bill clearly threatens Frank’s.)
Don’t make your children have to pay for your sins, Maazi. It’s in your own enlightened self-interest, that you respect the HUMAN RIGHTS of your LGBT citizens, as the world WILL come to insist. The longer you delay, the more you sentence your children to isolation in the global community, and the inevitable deprivations that will come w/ that isolation.
I appeal to your self-interest—if your empathy for your LGBT brothers & sisters is lacking. (I pray you are capable of the latter)
Talking of ‘bogus’: isn’t the name ‘Maazi NCO’ somewhat ‘bogus’?!
Also on the ‘bogus’ front: ‘Maazi NCO’ is all for human rights when it comes to his own (even though there is nothing ‘intrimsic’ about being a member of an opposition political party … one is not born a member of the ——-, after all).
So where did you study in the States then. ‘Maazi’?
Maazi,
And for that I thank merciful God!
Bogus propaganda !!! There is nothing “intrinsic” about gayism and we reject the libertarian ideology completely. Not only do we object with gayism, we are determined to eventually codify those objections into law in line with wishes of the Ugandan people.
The woman is just playing to Western audiences, appealing to liberals. The deviant gay vote is needed in year 2012. Like John Nagenda said recently, we do are not a colony of the western world. As far as I am in a position of authority, I will never allow my country –the pearl of africa—to become a colony of euro-american gay lobbyists and their severely compromised western governments. Clinton should first start her promotion of gayism with the pro-American royalist client rulers of those oil-rich fiefdoms in the arabian gulf. BTW, I am encouraged with what is happening in Nigeria and my own nation (Uganda) with regards to gayism and hope that other african nations will have the courage to call the bluff of that arrogant woman Mrs Clinton.
Interesting development: http://www.nyasatimes.com/malawi/2011/12/08/malawi-to-review-gay-ban-bad-laws-justice-minister/
Thro (kinda like bro) the video from Zoe is about the Macys dept store employee getting fired for refusing a trans woman from using the ladies dressing room. I don’t want to spoil the video as it has kind of a surprise in it. If you are never able to access YouTube then let us know and we can summarize it for you.
Zoe — where do “Ex-Gays” enter into this? Was that an allegation made about Natalie Johnson in the video? (YouTube isn’t working for me just at the moment.)
Half a truth is half a lie.
Perhaps (!) there has been casual male-male sex everywhere in every time. But “homosexuality” in the modern sense – sex connected with romantic love in a long(er)-term relationship between men regarding each other as equal – that’s indeed an invention of the 19th century “Western world”.
I’ve read some extremely interesting books about different kinds of male-male sex in different tribal societies. But I’ve never found any cultural anthropologist who would underwrite Ms. Clinton’s sayings.
Americans are often ridiculed because they naively believe that everyone is basically like them (or ought to be!). In the case of Ms. Clinton, the ridicule is earned.
Re: Religious Beliefs:
See this video too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgO89hh0fAs
A “Perfect Storm” of “Religious Beliefs” justifying bigotry, Ex-Gays (due to Religious Conviction) transmuting their internal conflicts into hatred, and the Liberty Counsel egging them on.
This kind of malignant “Christianity” has much to answer for. Though for sheer raving lunatic hatred of Trans and Intersex people, nothing exceeds the frothing-at-the-mouth spite of some RadFem Lesbian groups. As some in those groups have pointed out, the Religious Right are their natural allies.
Hmmmm….
I am thinking this whole Uganda drama was a good thing. It brought things into bold relief. It gives the administration an opportunity to take a stand.
I am not a public policy and diplomatic relations guy, so I don’t know how the whole funding piece gets turned on and turned off in such situations.
It seems confusing to me when we are dealing with Muslim or Christian or Secular nation states…I am not sure how our assistance to Saudi Arabia is linked to human rights for women (vote, drive a car, wear clothing of their choice, etc.) for example.
My hunch is that the policy will be overlooked with countries we have the least likelihood of influencing, but are most strategically important to have some financial foothold.
My hunch is the policy will be more rigorously applied with countries that are the most financially dependent upon us and are least likely to be strategically important.
That is the way it has seemed to me with other attempts to foster human rights.
Given the activities noted on this blog about Uganda, this is a very good move.
Very encouraged by her remarks. And sad to think it took almost a year and a half after Exodus Board member Don Schmierer went to Uganda for Exodus to officially oppose criminalization.
Re: Religious Beliefs:
See this video too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgO89hh0fAs
A “Perfect Storm” of “Religious Beliefs” justifying bigotry, Ex-Gays (due to Religious Conviction) transmuting their internal conflicts into hatred, and the Liberty Counsel egging them on.
This kind of malignant “Christianity” has much to answer for. Though for sheer raving lunatic hatred of Trans and Intersex people, nothing exceeds the frothing-at-the-mouth spite of some RadFem Lesbian groups. As some in those groups have pointed out, the Religious Right are their natural allies.
Jim G., I consider Hillery Rodham Clinton’s speech before the United Nations Human Rights Committee in Geneva Switzerland on Dec 6, 2011 the I have a Dream Speech for sexual minorities. It is that profound.
You know it did not get much mainstream press coverage right? That irritates me a little bit but it doesn’t matter that much to me. I heard it and now we know, we know which way our President is headed, he finally stopped Leading from behind and is out in front. Thank YOU President Obama.
We are NOT the United Christian States of America.
If elected, Rick Perry would NOT be President of the Christians.
Hilary Clinton’s recent and most appreciated remarks seeking to halt arcane and often deadly attacks on homosexuality world wide coupled with the Obama Administration call for action against nations which persecute homosexuals must be looked upon as an American Magna Carta for the human rights of homosexuals in the USA and abroad.
Quite apart from whether Perry’s views on foreign aid are “not nice”, to propose that all foreign aid packages should be initially reset to zero is about as meaningful as saying, “If elected President, I will propose that the weather shall always be 72°F and sunny.”
I mean, there are a multiplicity of treaty commitments and US agencies involved in foreign aid (thus, a lot of entrenched interest in not making overly-radical changes to aid levels) and Congress ultimately controls the purse-strings, not the President.
Well Perry has allegedly suggested rather different ‘conditions’ for ‘aid’: responses to ‘aid requests’ would based solely on ‘US security interests’ with all aid set at zero to start with.
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2011/12/06/perry-blasts-obama-over-pro-lgbt-intl-initiatives/
How charming! What a nice man!
Excuse me, I’ve just got to run to the bathroom … you might hear the retching from across the Atlantic.
Note that Republican hopeful Rick “Stop Obama’s War on Christmas!” Perry was quick to denounce this as “promoting special rights for gays in foreign countries”.
P.S. Perry’s “Strong” ad on YouTube currently has 10,836 likes, 442,734 dislikes… ouch! From YouTube’s mouth to
God’sGOP’s ears, I hope.One particularly well-chosen phrase in the Secretary’s peroration:-
“Let us be on the right side of history …“
Warren = Clinton here is not calling for anyone to agree that homosexual behavior is in line with their religious beliefs. However, she is calling for people to act in accord with their religious beliefs about reciprocal treatment. If you don’t want to be discriminated against for something intrinsic to you, then don’t do it to others.
StraightGrandmother= That’s right! People are entitled to their religious beliefs, however beliefs and actions are two different things. It is okay religiously believe that homosexuality is a sin, it is NOT okay to fire someone who works for you because you found out they are gay.
It is not okay to use your majority status to make civil laws that result in sexual minorities having less rights than you. It is a violation of Human Rights!
This is indeed a tour de force on the part of, especially, the Secretary of State. It’s radically more impressive and well thought out than recent British statements on this matter.
Jim G., I consider Hillery Rodham Clinton’s speech before the United Nations Human Rights Committee in Geneva Switzerland on Dec 6, 2011 the I have a Dream Speech for sexual minorities. It is that profound.
You know it did not get much mainstream press coverage right? That irritates me a little bit but it doesn’t matter that much to me. I heard it and now we know, we know which way our President is headed, he finally stopped Leading from behind and is out in front. Thank YOU President Obama.
Hilary Clinton’s recent and most appreciated remarks seeking to halt arcane and often deadly attacks on homosexuality world wide coupled with the Obama Administration call for action against nations which persecute homosexuals must be looked upon as an American Magna Carta for the human rights of homosexuals in the USA and abroad.
Quite apart from whether Perry’s views on foreign aid are “not nice”, to propose that all foreign aid packages should be initially reset to zero is about as meaningful as saying, “If elected President, I will propose that the weather shall always be 72°F and sunny.”
I mean, there are a multiplicity of treaty commitments and US agencies involved in foreign aid (thus, a lot of entrenched interest in not making overly-radical changes to aid levels) and Congress ultimately controls the purse-strings, not the President.
Well Perry has allegedly suggested rather different ‘conditions’ for ‘aid’: responses to ‘aid requests’ would based solely on ‘US security interests’ with all aid set at zero to start with.
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2011/12/06/perry-blasts-obama-over-pro-lgbt-intl-initiatives/
How charming! What a nice man!
Excuse me, I’ve just got to run to the bathroom … you might hear the retching from across the Atlantic.
Note that Republican hopeful Rick “Stop Obama’s War on Christmas!” Perry was quick to denounce this as “promoting special rights for gays in foreign countries”.
P.S. Perry’s “Strong” ad on YouTube currently has 10,836 likes, 442,734 dislikes… ouch! From YouTube’s mouth to
God’sGOP’s ears, I hope.One particularly well-chosen phrase in the Secretary’s peroration:-
“Let us be on the right side of history …“
Warren = Clinton here is not calling for anyone to agree that homosexual behavior is in line with their religious beliefs. However, she is calling for people to act in accord with their religious beliefs about reciprocal treatment. If you don’t want to be discriminated against for something intrinsic to you, then don’t do it to others.
StraightGrandmother= That’s right! People are entitled to their religious beliefs, however beliefs and actions are two different things. It is okay religiously believe that homosexuality is a sin, it is NOT okay to fire someone who works for you because you found out they are gay.
It is not okay to use your majority status to make civil laws that result in sexual minorities having less rights than you. It is a violation of Human Rights!
This is indeed a tour de force on the part of, especially, the Secretary of State. It’s radically more impressive and well thought out than recent British statements on this matter.