Article at Exgaywatch this morning:
Exclusive: Secret Conference Held to ‘Save Exodus International’ from Ruin
The crux of the article is this:
Exodus President Alan Chambers called a meeting together this past November 16. The subject was quite simply how to keep Exodus International from social and financial oblivion. In attendance were Exodus leadership, prominent religious leaders (such as Gabe Lyons) and lay people. The latter were mostly those who once counted themselves in the ex-gay camp but now are either in the process of changing their views or are fully gay affirming.
Go read the details at the link above.
Gabe Lyons is the co-author of unChristian, a book which documented the widespread perception that evangelicals are known for their anti-gay attitudes.
This is worth watching.
I would add that, when I visit the USA (which I do often, primarily for ‘family reasons’), I often attend a predominantly black Catholic church in Hartford, CT. This church has a very sensitive and thoughtful ‘take’ on the complex matter of human sexuality, The Nigerian priest there always places the most emphasis on the need for respect and sensitivity (obviously, he doesn’t contradict the ‘official line’ of the Church, but I think – from conversations he and I have had – he would regard some of Jeremy’s more extreme comments as ‘anathema’).
Jeremy:
Fine. That being so, it was quite inappropriate for you to write “Homosexuality destroys everything else about a person” as though it were a general statement that could be taken to apply to everyone else – or, indeed, necessarily to anyone else.
Worse than whom or what? And in what respect(s)? Until you have told us that, the assertion is, as near as makes no difference, quite meaningless to others.
On another note, here is a really awesome song that Dennis Jernigan sang for us at Living Hope this past Thursday:
http://youtu.be/F29-AYDmSnI
World Magazine has done these puff-pieces for Exodus before. May as well be a press release. Same writer even.
You would actually direct people to a website that is clearly biased AGAINST Exodus International? When there’s bias there’s a muddling of the truth. I would view everything coming from ExGayWatch with much skepticism.
Holding my breath and hoping this is so.
@ Seekingtruth:
Well, you won’t find this kind of information on a PRO-Exodus Internaional website, will you?
I agree with all of your points Michael B. I would add that in their apology they should affirm the civil rights of sexual minorities that are happy with themselves. I want to see a clear separation on their part, of their religious beliefs and their respect for our American Constitution and the rights of all people to self determination.
StraightGrandmother: Although nothing would make me happier than to see Exodus close its doors for good, I doubt that will happen. They will try to hold on. What they might want to consider in the meantime:
1. Follow Wendy Gritter’s advice to them some years ago, when she urged the Exodus leadership to “deal humbly and transparently with the perception that we have lied” (about orientation change).
2. Officially break all ties with NARTH.
3.. Stick to helping conservative Christians who believe that gayness is sin to remain celibate or stay in their mixed-orientation marriages (if that is what both spouses desire).
4. Issue a formal apology for ever having gotten involved in anti-gay politics.
Of course, these changes would hurt them financially, and they don’t seem to be in a position to lose any more supporters or donors.
First, apologies to the readership generally for the unnecessary vulgarity.
Sometimes I think it’s very important to be direct and cut through the vacuous prissiness of a phrase like “homosexual behavior”. When speaking about HIV risk, for example, because it’s simply not true that homosexual behavior per se poses an elevated HIV risk. (The odds of getting HIV by means of lesbian “scissoring” is practically nil, but it’s still a “homosexual behavior.”)
Even so, it would have been more than sufficient in my comment above to have said “mutual masturbation between men”, and left it at that.
Moreover, being overly vulgar in this case simply gave Jeremy an easy excuse to dance around the pertinent question: “Where exactly does the destruction of mind and soul come in” when two people engage in physically harmless homosexual acts to a moderate degree?
Of course, I suspect that no matter how decorously I had phrased the question, the mere fact that I am unapologetically homosexual, and that I regard “homosexual behavior” as morally neutral with the capacity to be morally wholesome, is the part that Jeremy actually considers to be sufficient evidence of my corruption.
So this bleating about “vulgarity” is just
bulmalarkey.Considering some of what you’ve said here, that’s a scary proposition.
@ Jeremy .. It sounds to me like you may be equating your experience of being in gay bars and being vulgar with being equivalent to homosexuality. This is also Alan Chamber’s take on it (particularly the bar hopping thing) so its not surprising that you might find resonance with him. Unfortunately (while this may be his .. and your experience) this is a stereotype and painting everyone the with the same brush is very wrong. I know of gay couples that are waiting for marriage to have sex. I know of single gay folks who are remaining chaste. And I know of gay folks who have chosen a path of celibacy in accordance with their beliefs. And there are still others who see no need for chastity or for waiting. The same broad spectrum exists for folks who are heterosexual. So it would be erroneous to put the broad label of ‘homosexuality’ or ‘heterosexuality’ on any particular moral or immoral activity.
BTW .. you haven’t answered my earlier question on whether you would label sex before marriage as worse than cancer for heterosexual folks. Or is the phrase “worse than cancer” one of the phrases you regret using here?
Dave
@ Teresa :
Throbert does tend to be a little ‘colourful’ – I understand your point there. As for Jeremy’s unfair statement: again, I understand completely your chagrin.
What I think (and indeed hope) may be happening in the ‘Catholic fold’ is that a much greater emphasis on the wrongness of homophobia is emerging, e.g. http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a9849daa-dd60-4028-adc0-2dfa024cb3a9. The Holy Father’s comments about condoms a year ago were to my mind indicative of a more ‘moral’ and less ‘ideological’ approach. Some of the implications of what he said were really quite startling, especially here: “there may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility.“
Jeremy, that is rather unfair of you to make that statement. We are not all alike here on this Blog. Some of us are attempting to live single, chaste lives, who also experience same-sex attractions.
Beat me up guys, but I, also, thought Throbert’s Comment was really, to use an old-fashioned phrase, off-color. But it’s not my Blog; and, I take what I can use; and leave the rest. (A 12-Step Program phrase)
Thanks Teresa, I shouldn’t have stated it that way. I didn’t mean it to refer to everyone else here. It was also a bit self-righteous of me to say it in that way to Throbert.
In my own past experience I was much more vulgar when I lived an active gay life. I even got told in gay bars that I was “too vulgar” and offensive. It was pretty ironic to be told that in a bar that has “strip contests” during the week. I have seen things change dramatically for me because that type of conversation is foreign to me now. I guess I’ve become re-sensitized to it.
I’m on a reading plan right now and reading the gospel of Matthew. A few seconds ago I found this verse. I think it explains my past mindset, behavior, and language:
The ‘non-distinction’ between ‘identity’ and ‘behaviour’, and between different kinds of behaviour, is just plain stupid.
The notion that the likely effects on self or others of being ‘celibate’ or being in a committed partnership are the same as those of being promiscuous is a notion worthy only of contempt. It is clearly monumentally idiotic.
Jeremy, can you think of any person who is gay that you would consider a role model (remove sexual orientation in the equation)?
Throbert –
You would think. Even non-procreative heterosexual couples can get married.
Jeremy attributes an astonishing amount of power to “homosexual behavior”, whatever he means by that.
I mean… let me offer a concrete example. Suppose I invite another bachelor male over to my apartment for a DVD screening of Jarhead Jack-Off IV — a scintillating drama in which USMC enlisted men, lonely for intimacy, contrive a session of group masturbation in the barracks showers.
And suppose that the other fellow and I, during the cinematic entertainment, enjoy some beer in responsible and moderate quantities, and shed our clothes in order to be more comfortable, and then wank each other daft, as
the limeysBritish people say?I think that would easily qualify as “homosexual behavior”. But where exactly — in Jeremy’s estimation — does the destruction of mind and soul enter into it?
I mean, I can certainly understand the arguments for saying that procreative heterosexual acts ought to be more favored, and placed on a pedestal as a sort of Gold Standard, for the good of society.
But I would think that one can elevate procreative heterosexuality without attempting the overly-ambitious claim that homosexual behavior destroys mind and soul!
P.S. I was reading a bunch of Jeeves and Wooster stories last night…
“… with the bonus of some politely soft-spoken smears against individuals who identify as both gay and Christian.”
That was rather cryptic, Throbert. Would you elaborate?
(I take it that you meant that Chambers was having a ‘dig’ at ‘liberal’ Christians who have no problem with loving same-sex partnerships.)
Did you see this article on Alan Chambers?
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/18908
One might wonder if interpretations such as this might spur such a ‘rebranding:’
http://www.paulonhomosexuality.com/
Warren you have not written much lately about the presidential Primaries but I believe Michelle Bachman’s comments in Iowa yesterday will be of interest to you, particularly how she basically says that there should be no civil rights for sexual minorities as it is after all only behavior and that gay men should simply marry a woman (I will refrain from saying, “Like her husband did”) Oh and she would eliminate the Dept of Education and support local schools who wanted to re-instituite school prayer. There is a lot in here on crazy eyes for you Warren
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-710804?hpt=hp_bn2
This is fascinating: http://www.paulonhomosexuality.com/
While I’m always ‘suspicious’ about anyone saying “this is it! this is the answer!”, I do find aspects of Wood’s analysis very compelling.
The Letter to the Romans, so often used to ‘condemn’ gays, does contain some very profound conundrums. Perhaps this shouldn’t really surprise as, at the very heart of Christianity, there is perhaps the greatest conundrum imaginable: that of Good Friday.
Jeremy:
Just a glib assertion. I haven’t found it to be so.
Ya know… you may not like someone of what they stand for but to specualte about their sexuality is kind of imposing. I don’t like it when people do it to me. Sexuality is between that person and their partner.
SG — Nice little puff piece on Chambers, with the bonus of some politely soft-spoken smears against individuals who identify as both gay and Christian.
(E.g., the suggestion that such people are indifferent to the virtue of self-denial, and live only for self-affirmation.)
Throbert, to bad World magazine does not have a place to enter comments.
That was rather cryptic, Jeremy. Would you elaborate?
Jeremy, Teresa, and anyone else celebrating today’s solemnity
HAPPY FEAST!
Jeremy, you wrote:
What do you consider “old Exodus rhetoric” that you disagree with but don’t find at Living Hope? What issues at Living Hope are you critical of and what SMALL things would your change if you could?
Although, on the other hand, if everyone used the F-word all the time, it would no longer be so psychologically satisfying for those occasions when you’ve hit your thumb with a hammer.
Just as horror movies would be less fun if it became fashionable for people to go around in gory, bleeding-brains latex masks 365 days a year, and not only on Halloween.
So there’s also something to be said for preserving the old taboos, and saying “fudge” when women, children, and other weak-minded creatures are present (while women, in turn, make believe that they aren’t perfectly familiar with obscenities, and that they don’t pass gas, either).
Yes, I would say it is an equal sin. It is the OPPOSITE of LOVE and therefore something to be avoided.
The phrase “worse than cancer” sounds hyperbolic if you haven’t lost a loved one to cancer; but if you have it is just crude and nasty. No, homosexuality is not worse than cancer. There are perfectly good words for disapproval of same-sex behavior (I disagree, I disapprove, such actions are immoral from one’s point of view), so there is no need to offend gays AND cancer patients and their families by making such comparisons.
There is a precedent among reparative therapy aficionados for this kind of speech. Remember Joseph Nicolosi’s joke at Love Won Out about dads tossing kids in the air in different ways than moms. But it is ok, because if you drop little Joe on his head, he might be brain damaged, but at least he won’t be gay. Just hilarious for all those parents of gay or brain impaired children.
In my experience, all-male groups (whether gay, straight, or mixed) tend towards vulgar language!
If there’s something distinctive about the LGBT community, it may be that, on average, gay men may be subconsciously eager to make coarse sexual remarks in front of “the fair sex”, in order to prove that they (gay men) are supporters of feminism and that they reject old-fashioned patriarchal assumptions about womanly daintiness, etc.
I mean, I think that the old taboos about not using certain language in mixed-sex company have gradually eroded for a number of reasons, but possibly gay people have played a slightly “disproportionate” role in the erosion of such taboos.
So I would guess that — for example — female observers who hang out in bars with gay-male friends (but who never have an opportunity to hang out in a men’s locker room!) may tend to overestimate the vulgarity of gay men compared with straight men.
(I’m kinda just musing out loud, here… I’m not sure if it’s true. But I’ve studied Russian for a number of years, and although Russian men tend to consider themselves the world’s Jedi Masters Of Obscenity, the stricture “not in front of the ladies” is still observed much more over there than it is in contemporary Anglo-American culture. And I have it on good authority from Russian women that although they will cuss among themselves in all-female company, they are more embarrassed than American women about using obscenities in front of men.)
Jeremy!
Come on, old boy! Are you really suggesting that a couple who are, for example, engaged are engaging in something that is ‘worse than cancer’ if they sleep together before they get married? Or indeed that two people of the same sex who are in a loving, committed relationship are ‘diseased’ because they share a bed?
I think you’re losing your sense of proportion. You seem to me to be more interested in ‘rules’ than in exercising ‘moral judgement’.
Personally I am sympathetic to a 19th-century American feminist (I forget her name) who wrote in frustration, “Why on Earth should we all be compelled to use ridiculous phraseology like generative sexual congress when there is a perfectly good and concise Anglo-Saxonism starting with ‘F’ that absolutely every English speaker at every educational level already understands?”
Thanks, Warren. As a cancer survivor myself (and as one who lost both my parents to cancer) I am deeply offended by such comparisons. To make matters worse, my Mom had read all the books that blamed my gayness on bad parenting . When I came out, she was completely devastated because she believed what the “experts” said: my homosexuality was an “illness” — and it was her “fault” that I had it.
She told me, “Your being gay is worse than your Dad dying of leukemia.” It took her several years to rid herself of that poisonous thinking. Fortunately, before her own death, she grew to be proud of her openly gay son. She even said I had “a lot of courage.” She loved me and my partner, Gary. She challenged and corrected ignorant or hateful people who made comparisons about homosexuality and cancer. And I sincerely thank you for doing so as well.
I am in moderation again.
StraightGrandmother, I can’t express too strongly my agreement with that statement. Unless a teenager’s emerging sexuality shows harmful traits, e.g. sexual coercion of others or persistent sexual attraction to much younger people, then any officious attempt to tamper with it is tantamount to abuse.
I find the silly games that the “ex-gay” crowd play with this word “identity” slightly amusing but also irritating. Being gay isn’t an identity; it’s a personality trait, just as being straight is. All right, one’s sexual orientation may be regarded as a part of one’s identity – and perhaps a not insignificant one – but not one that a person adopts or “embraces” any more than, for example, the colour of his/her eyes. Looked at from that point of view, being gay is a no less legitimate part of one person’s identity than being straight is of another’s.
I tend to agree with SGm, and might even go further and aver that same-sex relationships per se are not the subject of biblical condemnation in the New Testament.
Of course, there are certain standards of behaviour that are consistent with genuine attempts to live according to Christ’s teachings and those in other parts of the New Testament. From what he said, Jeremy seems in the past not to have embraced those standards when to comes to his ‘sex life’, and, like both Warren and SGm, I would say ‘good on him’ for making certain behavioural changes. I would also say that the behavioural changes he made might not necessarily have been the only ones he might have made, although, not knowing him and his situation personally, I am not really in a position to make a properly informed judgement on that.
Jeremy, I truly am afraid for you. There is not a lot I can do for you over the internet. Your statement about rather being a heroin addict than being gay is truly frighting Jeremy. Calm yourself Jeremy, calm yourself.
Warren =
If your support groups help you live in accord with the actual teachings of Christ, then good on you
StraightGrangmother =
If your support groups help you live in accordence with your faith
the actual teachings of Christ,then good on you.Because the actual teachings of Christ remain in dispute. Christ never once talked about homosexuality.
The comments on this thread and their giddiness about the anticipated downfall of a ministry are appalling.
Exodus doesn’t really have a psychoanalytic view of homosexuality. I really don’t see how attacking a religious ministry is aligned with your claims of objective scientific analysis.
If you were truly being objective, you would also look into the wild claims of the pro-gay side. Proving that therapy is sometimes ineffective, doesn’t make homosexual behavior healthy or natural. Even if EVERYTHING you said on here were true, it still be completely irrelevant to the core issue.
Attacking the treatments for homosexuality without offering an alternative is not really constructive. The treatments for Cancer (surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, etc.) are not 100% effective either, but that doesn’t make Cancer healthy.
I personally would consider Cancer FAR healthier than ANY kind of homosexual “relationship” – since cancer only attacks the body. Homosexuality destroys everything else about a person.
He says in Psalm 119 that they are plotting against HIM and that he will focus instead on God and his statutes. I was pointing out that this blog is vindictive toward ANYONE who dares to help anyone who doesn’t want to be defined by the modern pop-psychology view of homosexuality.
Jeremy
I think you’re getting somewhat hyperbolic. Saying that a counsellor expressing her view that sexual orientation (though presumably not behaviour patterns) is immutable is worse than injecting someone with heroin is … well … a bit daft, isn’t it?
Jeremy said:
That is where you are off. My blog challenges poor scholarship and confirmation bias. I point out distortions of research made by reparative therapists and others. I have changed my views on the science of homosexuality based on studies which NARTH ignores as well as those they distort. However, my resolve to help people who want to live in accord with their faith has not wavered.
Perhaps you don’t have the history but at one time the approach you promote was the pop psychology view of homosexuality. Before Bieber came along and said homosexuality was due to bad fathers and smother mothers, the focus was mostly on the mothers. At the same time, many psychoanalysts thought homosexuality was partly due to constitutional factors along with oedipal concerns. Read this article for the pop psychology view of homosexuality in the 1960s.
Psychoanalytic views of homosexuality are not in my religious statement of faith or the statutes of God. If your support groups help you live in accord with the actual teachings of Christ, then good on you. However, no one needs to accept faulty science in order to live as a Christian.
No one said anything about nabbing anyone. I would agree with you that anything that instill Shame into anyone is a bad thing. I believe the quote was expressing dismay at seeing kids in that environment. I went to several gay pride parades in the past here in Dallas and they were often very vulgar. It would not be appropriate place for anyone under age.
In terms of therapy for teenagers, Dr. Nicolosi and others are very clear that is has to be self-motivated and not forced by parents or anyone else. There is a whole chapter on that in his book Shame & Attachment Loss.
The worst possible approach would be the counselor I talked with when I was in High School who told me I was “born gay” and “couldn’t change.” That is the most destructive advice ANYONE can give to a youth. It would have been far better if she had told me I was “born to be a Heroin addict” and then shoved a needle in my arm.
I think Throbert is on excellent form today.
Careful the tale you tell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gey1PtXYwLI
Not only in reparative-therapy circles, and not only about homosexuality.
I remember being flabbergasted, as a Catholic teenager, when I read a theologian’s article attempting to justify the Church’s total opposition to distributing condoms in Africa as an anti-AIDS measure. He wrote more or less to the effect that “the spiritual damage from condomistic intercourse [sic!] is worse than death from AIDS.”
[Side note: Of course, I recognize the point that condom-distribution is not a panacea for containing the HIV epidemic and that it could have unintended medical consequences — e.g., when impoverished Africans try to wash and reuse Trojans out of misguided thrift. In other words, I concede that there may be some merit to arguing for abstinence rather than UN-subsidized rubbers. Actually, I think a multi-prong approach that discusses abstinence AND monogamous fidelity AND condoms is probably the best.]
However, the theologian in this case was NOT raising a practical objection about unexpected condom leakage because of improper use!
He was, in my view, lazily invoking an unprovable “supernatural consequence” of condom-use — one that is believed as a matter of pure faith to occur in the hereafter — and asserting that the totally provable and objectively KNOWN medical consequences of HIV infection were rather more desirable than going to his (purely hypothetical) Hell because you wore a rubber during sex!
As the old quip goes, arguments of this sort are not to be set aside lightly — they ought to be thrown away with great force…
What happens to a gay kid’s self-esteem when his own parents tell him that his sexual orientation is worse than cancer?
What happens to a gay kid’s heart and mind when he is told that his love for a same-sex partner is an “abomination” to God and will land that child in Hell if he/she doesn’t “change”?
What happens when he is repeatedly told that all gays are mentally ill, “damaged” and in need of “repair”? What kind of parent would do that to their own child? I cannot think of this as anything but child abuse.
And yet, we have “experts” from groups like NARTH that are more than willing to reinforce those messages. And groups like Exodus who still count groups like NARTH among their allies.
What Michael B said.
Following up on my own comment: I’ve made the point to some Christian friends that a lot of conservative theologians see procreative heterosexual marriage as a Gold Standard, while all other intimate relationships are scorned as a “Mud Standard”, or at best a Clay Standard or Lead Standard — essentially worthless, in other words.
The possibility seems to elude them that committed homosexual partnerships, or “childless by choice” heterosexual marriages, or remarriage after divorce, could be constructively accepted as “Silver” or “Bronze” Standards — not so highly praised as Gold, but still having considerable spiritual value. (At least as much value as the partners involved are willing to bring to the relationship…)
Well, so much for the hopes of a kinder, gentler “re-branding” of Exodus.:
‘Ex-Gay’ Leader Claims Christian Pastors who Support Gay Rights are like Nazis, Disobeying God
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ex-gay-leader-claims-christian-leaders-who-support-gay-rights-are-nazis-disobeying-god
Shades of Scott Lively?
I would love to live long enough to see that day — especially the “fact-based” part. They could start by officially severing all ties to NARTH.
Throbert, you’ve opened up here some real meat for reflection. I would add why are ‘relationships’, of any kind, considered the only life worthy of discussion, positive or negative. This leaves no room for those of us who happen to be unattached, single by whatever means that’s happened: chosen singleness, in-between relationship singleness, widowed, divorced, etc.
No wonder so few persons with same-sex attractions opt for a life ‘apart’. There’s absolutely no medal, even mud, accorded to being single. Well, I take that back. The medal given out to singles is ‘Loser’.
Most sides of the gay debate leave little to no room for those of us who’ve chosen celibacy. One side sees us as ‘self-hating’ gays, another side tends to see us as either liars or freaks; onto another position that sees us as mentally ill, offering little of value to society, best not seen or heard from. There is no via-media for those of us in-between.
If Exodus chooses a sensible, fact-based re-branding w/o the screaming voice of “you too can change”; and, knowing their Christian belief system, I hope it finally offers a place of comfort and hope to those of us who are walking a tightrope with our faith belief and same-sex attractions, personally and politically: a safety net, without the fabric of politics, a safe place in Christ’s Arms.
Thanks, Jeremy, I appreciate the response.
This doesn’t even make any sense. That’s like saying “being left-handed destroys everything else about a person.” I can’t even see the leap in logic that was taken. It seriously just makes zero sense to me.
I’m not sure if Warren is writing about Living Hope or not. I was speaking about Ex-Gay Watch.
That comment tells me all that I really need to know about you, Jeremy, and it comes as no surprise whatsoever. With it you lay waste to the deceptive, happy-dippy tone you have brought to the other threads. You can breath easier now without the pretext.
It’s this kind of rhetoric that fuels homophobia, which itself can lead to violence and murder.
This is the main reason why we challenge you, Jeremy. You start off ‘nice’, but as the veils come off, the nastiness becomes clear.
@ Jeremy .. Well I guess your true colors are coming out .. It was already shared with you in another thread, I believe, that Dr’sThrockmorton and Yarhouse do have an alternative to this bogus change therapy .. its called SITF .. Sexual Identity Therapy Framework. So .. its a lie when you say no alternative is offered. Lying .. talking out of both sides of your mouth .. deception .. lack of credibility .. playing the victim .. actiing like an attack on bogus therapy is an attack on Christianity .. blah blah blah ..We’ve heard it all before .. I would have to say that you have learned well from Exodus and company .. you parrot what they do very well.
Dave
Jeremy,
According to your beliefs!
And now you’re back on the homosexuality = disease trolley. Oh dear.
I just went to Amazon and bought a book $14.95 on New Hope Ministries. It is called
.
It is the Kindle edition and if you don’t have a Kindle like I don’t have one, Amazon has a free app and you can download it and read Kindle books on your computer. I have multiple computers and it is real easy to have the same book on many computers. Oh and you can lend the book also. I will write back after I read the book.
Jeremy, can you clear up the ambiguity of using the term ‘homosexuality’? Are you talking about same-sex sexual behavior; or, are you saying that simply being same-sex attracted destroys everything else about a person?
Correction, that is Living hope
Jeremy, are you living at New Horizons?
That’s an interesting question. It’s one thing to say that premarital sex is definitely a sin in the “falling short of God’s ideal” sense.
But one can “fall short” of a target without being its 180° diametric opposite!
That said, if you can convince Jeremy to abandon his drama-queeny “worse than cancer” rhetoric, you’ll have done him some good.
Quite apart from offending gay people, this “cancer is healthier than homosexuality” stuff is possibly offensive to actual cancer patients (and their bereaved survivors).
In my mother’s extended (and thoroughly Catholic) family, there are two known homosexuals including myself, and among the younger generations, no shortage of premarital and just plain non-marital sex and living in sin (there was one known case of truly “premarital” sex, involving a formal engagement and a planned wedding date that had to be moved forward rather abruptly when the fiancee got pregnant; the other cases were simply “non-marital” sex, involving persons who had no plans of marriage).
ALSO, in my mother’s family, we’ve lost two loved ones in “the prime of middle age” to cancer — including the notoriously aggressive pancreatic cancer that took my favorite aunt when she was 55 (leaving her third husband a widower after a blissful 20-year marriage — I forgot to mention that there have been a couple divorces and remarriages in the Catholic clan, too!).
So anyway, while the older generations may sigh and pray over the sexual sinning of the younger family members, I’m fairly sure that the whole family would be lining up to kick Jeremy in the balls with steel-toed boots if he were to chirp his opinion that cancer is FAR healthier than any kind of homosexual “relationship”.
Jeremy,
I am surprised you linked to Living Hope Ministries apparently an Exodus affiliate per you. Did you read the blog on Gay Pride? This is quite disturbing. The author talks about seeing a Gay Pride Parade and he is lamenting the teenagers and what is that word (?) Pre-pubescent teenagers who are enjoying the parade-
This is scary, nabbing teenagers and trying to force them to be heterosexual. I think it should be a universal agreement that there should be hands off teenagers. No therapy, no pray away the gay, none of that. Let the kids grow up without instilling shame in them. If they want to seek this out on their own once they are an adult fine, but stay away from kids for goodness sake.
I also read the blog about their banquet, that ehm, piqued my interest.
Jeremy, I wish you well. You are an adult and you have the resources of the internet to find information. In your quest just remember that homosexuality is not a disease and does not need to be cured. You have the right to pursue your life as you wish, but on the same token it would not be right of you to denigrate sexual minorities who choose to live their life the way they want. In other words what is right for you is not right for everybody, and all people deserve respect and equal Civil Rights. By reading the Living Hope website I am doubtful that they agree. Best of luck, watch what you are getting into Jeremy, eyes wide open.
Thank you, Lynn David, for the headsup on this book and link. I wrote to Timothy Kincaid at BTB and provided him with the link, suggesting he read the book and write a review of it for BTB readers. He wrote back, thanking me for the link, and saying he will read it. I’m looking forward to his thoughts!
Mary, I know you are right, it was snarky. I shouldn’t have, and I usually don’t, but after watching that video of her on CNN I admit, I just wanted to lash out. It’s hard Mary to rise above every single time.
Well, so much for the hopes of a kinder, gentler “re-branding” of Exodus.:
‘Ex-Gay’ Leader Claims Christian Pastors who Support Gay Rights are like Nazis, Disobeying God
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ex-gay-leader-claims-christian-leaders-who-support-gay-rights-are-nazis-disobeying-god
Shades of Scott Lively?
What Michael B said.
I think Throbert is on excellent form today.
Careful the tale you tell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gey1PtXYwLI
What happens to a gay kid’s self-esteem when his own parents tell him that his sexual orientation is worse than cancer?
What happens to a gay kid’s heart and mind when he is told that his love for a same-sex partner is an “abomination” to God and will land that child in Hell if he/she doesn’t “change”?
What happens when he is repeatedly told that all gays are mentally ill, “damaged” and in need of “repair”? What kind of parent would do that to their own child? I cannot think of this as anything but child abuse.
And yet, we have “experts” from groups like NARTH that are more than willing to reinforce those messages. And groups like Exodus who still count groups like NARTH among their allies.
I would love to live long enough to see that day — especially the “fact-based” part. They could start by officially severing all ties to NARTH.
Throbert, you’ve opened up here some real meat for reflection. I would add why are ‘relationships’, of any kind, considered the only life worthy of discussion, positive or negative. This leaves no room for those of us who happen to be unattached, single by whatever means that’s happened: chosen singleness, in-between relationship singleness, widowed, divorced, etc.
No wonder so few persons with same-sex attractions opt for a life ‘apart’. There’s absolutely no medal, even mud, accorded to being single. Well, I take that back. The medal given out to singles is ‘Loser’.
Most sides of the gay debate leave little to no room for those of us who’ve chosen celibacy. One side sees us as ‘self-hating’ gays, another side tends to see us as either liars or freaks; onto another position that sees us as mentally ill, offering little of value to society, best not seen or heard from. There is no via-media for those of us in-between.
If Exodus chooses a sensible, fact-based re-branding w/o the screaming voice of “you too can change”; and, knowing their Christian belief system, I hope it finally offers a place of comfort and hope to those of us who are walking a tightrope with our faith belief and same-sex attractions, personally and politically: a safety net, without the fabric of politics, a safe place in Christ’s Arms.
Not only in reparative-therapy circles, and not only about homosexuality.
I remember being flabbergasted, as a Catholic teenager, when I read a theologian’s article attempting to justify the Church’s total opposition to distributing condoms in Africa as an anti-AIDS measure. He wrote more or less to the effect that “the spiritual damage from condomistic intercourse [sic!] is worse than death from AIDS.”
[Side note: Of course, I recognize the point that condom-distribution is not a panacea for containing the HIV epidemic and that it could have unintended medical consequences — e.g., when impoverished Africans try to wash and reuse Trojans out of misguided thrift. In other words, I concede that there may be some merit to arguing for abstinence rather than UN-subsidized rubbers. Actually, I think a multi-prong approach that discusses abstinence AND monogamous fidelity AND condoms is probably the best.]
However, the theologian in this case was NOT raising a practical objection about unexpected condom leakage because of improper use!
He was, in my view, lazily invoking an unprovable “supernatural consequence” of condom-use — one that is believed as a matter of pure faith to occur in the hereafter — and asserting that the totally provable and objectively KNOWN medical consequences of HIV infection were rather more desirable than going to his (purely hypothetical) Hell because you wore a rubber during sex!
As the old quip goes, arguments of this sort are not to be set aside lightly — they ought to be thrown away with great force…
LIke:
Emphasis on perfectionism interferes with these realistic conclusions.
Following up on my own comment: I’ve made the point to some Christian friends that a lot of conservative theologians see procreative heterosexual marriage as a Gold Standard, while all other intimate relationships are scorned as a “Mud Standard”, or at best a Clay Standard or Lead Standard — essentially worthless, in other words.
The possibility seems to elude them that committed homosexual partnerships, or “childless by choice” heterosexual marriages, or remarriage after divorce, could be constructively accepted as “Silver” or “Bronze” Standards — not so highly praised as Gold, but still having considerable spiritual value. (At least as much value as the partners involved are willing to bring to the relationship…)
Warren =
Remember Joseph Nicolosi’s joke at Love Won Out about dads tossing kids in the air in different ways than moms. But it is ok, because if you drop little Joe on his head, he might be brain damaged, but at least he won’t be gay. Just hilarious for all those parents of gay or brain impaired children.
StraightGrandmother = …gasp…
Thanks, Warren. As a cancer survivor myself (and as one who lost both my parents to cancer) I am deeply offended by such comparisons. To make matters worse, my Mom had read all the books that blamed my gayness on bad parenting . When I came out, she was completely devastated because she believed what the “experts” said: my homosexuality was an “illness” — and it was her “fault” that I had it.
She told me, “Your being gay is worse than your Dad dying of leukemia.” It took her several years to rid herself of that poisonous thinking. Fortunately, before her own death, she grew to be proud of her openly gay son. She even said I had “a lot of courage.” She loved me and my partner, Gary. She challenged and corrected ignorant or hateful people who made comparisons about homosexuality and cancer. And I sincerely thank you for doing so as well.
P.S. Jeremy, old pal, there is absolutely no need to waste the world’s precious supply of ironic scare-quotes by using them around the term relationship — it’s a thoroughly neutral word that has no historic implications of heterosexuality or of divine approval (unlike marriage).
Business partners can have a financial relationship; a noun and an adjective can have a grammatical relationship; complementary angles can have a geometric relationship.
In short, while there are valid reasons for preferring to use quotes in a controversial phrase like same-sex “marriage”, you won’t be accidentally spreading Gay Propaganda if you use the phrase homosexual relationship without quote marks around the second word.
That’s an interesting question. It’s one thing to say that premarital sex is definitely a sin in the “falling short of God’s ideal” sense.
But one can “fall short” of a target without being its 180° diametric opposite!
That said, if you can convince Jeremy to abandon his drama-queeny “worse than cancer” rhetoric, you’ll have done him some good.
Quite apart from offending gay people, this “cancer is healthier than homosexuality” stuff is possibly offensive to actual cancer patients (and their bereaved survivors).
In my mother’s extended (and thoroughly Catholic) family, there are two known homosexuals including myself, and among the younger generations, no shortage of premarital and just plain non-marital sex and living in sin (there was one known case of truly “premarital” sex, involving a formal engagement and a planned wedding date that had to be moved forward rather abruptly when the fiancee got pregnant; the other cases were simply “non-marital” sex, involving persons who had no plans of marriage).
ALSO, in my mother’s family, we’ve lost two loved ones in “the prime of middle age” to cancer — including the notoriously aggressive pancreatic cancer that took my favorite aunt when she was 55 (leaving her third husband a widower after a blissful 20-year marriage — I forgot to mention that there have been a couple divorces and remarriages in the Catholic clan, too!).
So anyway, while the older generations may sigh and pray over the sexual sinning of the younger family members, I’m fairly sure that the whole family would be lining up to kick Jeremy in the balls with steel-toed boots if he were to chirp his opinion that cancer is FAR healthier than any kind of homosexual “relationship”.
LIke:
Emphasis on perfectionism interferes with these realistic conclusions.
Jeremy, Teresa, and anyone else celebrating today’s solemnity
HAPPY FEAST!
Warren =
Remember Joseph Nicolosi’s joke at Love Won Out about dads tossing kids in the air in different ways than moms. But it is ok, because if you drop little Joe on his head, he might be brain damaged, but at least he won’t be gay. Just hilarious for all those parents of gay or brain impaired children.
StraightGrandmother = …gasp…
P.S. Jeremy, old pal, there is absolutely no need to waste the world’s precious supply of ironic scare-quotes by using them around the term relationship — it’s a thoroughly neutral word that has no historic implications of heterosexuality or of divine approval (unlike marriage).
Business partners can have a financial relationship; a noun and an adjective can have a grammatical relationship; complementary angles can have a geometric relationship.
In short, while there are valid reasons for preferring to use quotes in a controversial phrase like same-sex “marriage”, you won’t be accidentally spreading Gay Propaganda if you use the phrase homosexual relationship without quote marks around the second word.
.
I thiink we can agree that all sin is sin. My question however is whether you would use the same adjectives to describe some of the heterosexual sins I mentioned. See my earlier post on Dec 6 at 4:19PM for the several examples I gave. Also .. perhaps you could explain to me how premarital sex is the “opposite of love” from a biblical perspective. Just to be clear here: I believe that sin is a willful violation of a known law of God. But I am not sure where you are getting these extra descriptors.
Dave
.
I thiink we can agree that all sin is sin. My question however is whether you would use the same adjectives to describe some of the heterosexual sins I mentioned. See my earlier post on Dec 6 at 4:19PM for the several examples I gave. Also .. perhaps you could explain to me how premarital sex is the “opposite of love” from a biblical perspective. Just to be clear here: I believe that sin is a willful violation of a known law of God. But I am not sure where you are getting these extra descriptors.
Dave
Jeremy, you wrote:
What do you consider “old Exodus rhetoric” that you disagree with but don’t find at Living Hope? What issues at Living Hope are you critical of and what SMALL things would your change if you could?
Although, on the other hand, if everyone used the F-word all the time, it would no longer be so psychologically satisfying for those occasions when you’ve hit your thumb with a hammer.
Just as horror movies would be less fun if it became fashionable for people to go around in gory, bleeding-brains latex masks 365 days a year, and not only on Halloween.
So there’s also something to be said for preserving the old taboos, and saying “fudge” when women, children, and other weak-minded creatures are present (while women, in turn, make believe that they aren’t perfectly familiar with obscenities, and that they don’t pass gas, either).
Jeremy!
Come on, old boy! Are you really suggesting that a couple who are, for example, engaged are engaging in something that is ‘worse than cancer’ if they sleep together before they get married? Or indeed that two people of the same sex who are in a loving, committed relationship are ‘diseased’ because they share a bed?
I think you’re losing your sense of proportion. You seem to me to be more interested in ‘rules’ than in exercising ‘moral judgement’.
Personally I am sympathetic to a 19th-century American feminist (I forget her name) who wrote in frustration, “Why on Earth should we all be compelled to use ridiculous phraseology like generative sexual congress when there is a perfectly good and concise Anglo-Saxonism starting with ‘F’ that absolutely every English speaker at every educational level already understands?”
In my experience, all-male groups (whether gay, straight, or mixed) tend towards vulgar language!
If there’s something distinctive about the LGBT community, it may be that, on average, gay men may be subconsciously eager to make coarse sexual remarks in front of “the fair sex”, in order to prove that they (gay men) are supporters of feminism and that they reject old-fashioned patriarchal assumptions about womanly daintiness, etc.
I mean, I think that the old taboos about not using certain language in mixed-sex company have gradually eroded for a number of reasons, but possibly gay people have played a slightly “disproportionate” role in the erosion of such taboos.
So I would guess that — for example — female observers who hang out in bars with gay-male friends (but who never have an opportunity to hang out in a men’s locker room!) may tend to overestimate the vulgarity of gay men compared with straight men.
(I’m kinda just musing out loud, here… I’m not sure if it’s true. But I’ve studied Russian for a number of years, and although Russian men tend to consider themselves the world’s Jedi Masters Of Obscenity, the stricture “not in front of the ladies” is still observed much more over there than it is in contemporary Anglo-American culture. And I have it on good authority from Russian women that although they will cuss among themselves in all-female company, they are more embarrassed than American women about using obscenities in front of men.)
Yes, I would say it is an equal sin. It is the OPPOSITE of LOVE and therefore something to be avoided.
The phrase “worse than cancer” sounds hyperbolic if you haven’t lost a loved one to cancer; but if you have it is just crude and nasty. No, homosexuality is not worse than cancer. There are perfectly good words for disapproval of same-sex behavior (I disagree, I disapprove, such actions are immoral from one’s point of view), so there is no need to offend gays AND cancer patients and their families by making such comparisons.
There is a precedent among reparative therapy aficionados for this kind of speech. Remember Joseph Nicolosi’s joke at Love Won Out about dads tossing kids in the air in different ways than moms. But it is ok, because if you drop little Joe on his head, he might be brain damaged, but at least he won’t be gay. Just hilarious for all those parents of gay or brain impaired children.
First, apologies to the readership generally for the unnecessary vulgarity.
Sometimes I think it’s very important to be direct and cut through the vacuous prissiness of a phrase like “homosexual behavior”. When speaking about HIV risk, for example, because it’s simply not true that homosexual behavior per se poses an elevated HIV risk. (The odds of getting HIV by means of lesbian “scissoring” is practically nil, but it’s still a “homosexual behavior.”)
Even so, it would have been more than sufficient in my comment above to have said “mutual masturbation between men”, and left it at that.
Moreover, being overly vulgar in this case simply gave Jeremy an easy excuse to dance around the pertinent question: “Where exactly does the destruction of mind and soul come in” when two people engage in physically harmless homosexual acts to a moderate degree?
Of course, I suspect that no matter how decorously I had phrased the question, the mere fact that I am unapologetically homosexual, and that I regard “homosexual behavior” as morally neutral with the capacity to be morally wholesome, is the part that Jeremy actually considers to be sufficient evidence of my corruption.
So this bleating about “vulgarity” is just
bulmalarkey.Considering some of what you’ve said here, that’s a scary proposition.
Jeremy, can you think of any person who is gay that you would consider a role model (remove sexual orientation in the equation)?
Jeremy Schwab# ~ Dec 7, 2011 at 10:31 am
“In my own past experience I was much more vulgar when I lived an active gay life. I even got told in gay bars that I was “too vulgar” and offensive.”
And you were also much younger as well. Yet you only wish to attribute the vulgarity to your orientation rather than your youth.
Several years ago, I was in a diversity discussion on a college campus, and the topic was glb life on campus. Someone had mentioned about how the gay community seemed to make a lot more sexual (vulgar) jokes. However, I pointed out how the same humor occurred in the student theater group (I knew the person who made the comment was also involved with that group as well – and the comments in question were often by straight members of the group), After I mentioned this fact, those who were in both groups realized that the sexual humor was more likely a product of them being 18-22 yr-olds rather than from them being gay.
You, Jeremy, seem to ascribe every negative aspect of your life to being gay, (a point of view I’m sure Nicolosi encourages as often as possible). While I’m sure being gay has caused problems for you, it doesn’t cause those same problems for others. There are many gay men who live perfectly healthy, happy normal lives AS GAY MEN. Has Nicolosi ever told you this? Discussed that this is possible as well? There are several such men that post on this blog. And I’m pretty sure most of them would be perfectly willing to discuss their lives with you.
@ Jeremy .. It sounds to me like you may be equating your experience of being in gay bars and being vulgar with being equivalent to homosexuality. This is also Alan Chamber’s take on it (particularly the bar hopping thing) so its not surprising that you might find resonance with him. Unfortunately (while this may be his .. and your experience) this is a stereotype and painting everyone the with the same brush is very wrong. I know of gay couples that are waiting for marriage to have sex. I know of single gay folks who are remaining chaste. And I know of gay folks who have chosen a path of celibacy in accordance with their beliefs. And there are still others who see no need for chastity or for waiting. The same broad spectrum exists for folks who are heterosexual. So it would be erroneous to put the broad label of ‘homosexuality’ or ‘heterosexuality’ on any particular moral or immoral activity.
BTW .. you haven’t answered my earlier question on whether you would label sex before marriage as worse than cancer for heterosexual folks. Or is the phrase “worse than cancer” one of the phrases you regret using here?
Dave
Jeremy Schwab# ~ Dec 7, 2011 at 10:31 am
“In my own past experience I was much more vulgar when I lived an active gay life. I even got told in gay bars that I was “too vulgar” and offensive.”
And you were also much younger as well. Yet you only wish to attribute the vulgarity to your orientation rather than your youth.
Several years ago, I was in a diversity discussion on a college campus, and the topic was glb life on campus. Someone had mentioned about how the gay community seemed to make a lot more sexual (vulgar) jokes. However, I pointed out how the same humor occurred in the student theater group (I knew the person who made the comment was also involved with that group as well – and the comments in question were often by straight members of the group), After I mentioned this fact, those who were in both groups realized that the sexual humor was more likely a product of them being 18-22 yr-olds rather than from them being gay.
You, Jeremy, seem to ascribe every negative aspect of your life to being gay, (a point of view I’m sure Nicolosi encourages as often as possible). While I’m sure being gay has caused problems for you, it doesn’t cause those same problems for others. There are many gay men who live perfectly healthy, happy normal lives AS GAY MEN. Has Nicolosi ever told you this? Discussed that this is possible as well? There are several such men that post on this blog. And I’m pretty sure most of them would be perfectly willing to discuss their lives with you.
Thanks Teresa, I shouldn’t have stated it that way. I didn’t mean it to refer to everyone else here. It was also a bit self-righteous of me to say it in that way to Throbert.
In my own past experience I was much more vulgar when I lived an active gay life. I even got told in gay bars that I was “too vulgar” and offensive. It was pretty ironic to be told that in a bar that has “strip contests” during the week. I have seen things change dramatically for me because that type of conversation is foreign to me now. I guess I’ve become re-sensitized to it.
I’m on a reading plan right now and reading the gospel of Matthew. A few seconds ago I found this verse. I think it explains my past mindset, behavior, and language:
I would add that, when I visit the USA (which I do often, primarily for ‘family reasons’), I often attend a predominantly black Catholic church in Hartford, CT. This church has a very sensitive and thoughtful ‘take’ on the complex matter of human sexuality, The Nigerian priest there always places the most emphasis on the need for respect and sensitivity (obviously, he doesn’t contradict the ‘official line’ of the Church, but I think – from conversations he and I have had – he would regard some of Jeremy’s more extreme comments as ‘anathema’).
@ Teresa :
Throbert does tend to be a little ‘colourful’ – I understand your point there. As for Jeremy’s unfair statement: again, I understand completely your chagrin.
What I think (and indeed hope) may be happening in the ‘Catholic fold’ is that a much greater emphasis on the wrongness of homophobia is emerging, e.g. http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a9849daa-dd60-4028-adc0-2dfa024cb3a9. The Holy Father’s comments about condoms a year ago were to my mind indicative of a more ‘moral’ and less ‘ideological’ approach. Some of the implications of what he said were really quite startling, especially here: “there may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility.“
Jeremy, that is rather unfair of you to make that statement. We are not all alike here on this Blog. Some of us are attempting to live single, chaste lives, who also experience same-sex attractions.
Beat me up guys, but I, also, thought Throbert’s Comment was really, to use an old-fashioned phrase, off-color. But it’s not my Blog; and, I take what I can use; and leave the rest. (A 12-Step Program phrase)
The ‘non-distinction’ between ‘identity’ and ‘behaviour’, and between different kinds of behaviour, is just plain stupid.
The notion that the likely effects on self or others of being ‘celibate’ or being in a committed partnership are the same as those of being promiscuous is a notion worthy only of contempt. It is clearly monumentally idiotic.
@ Jeremy … ‘Nice’ of you to finally make distinctions (between identity and actions) but your friends at Exodus don’t..
I have shared this before but here is a quote by Alan Chambers, the head of Exodus, a well known and long established exgay ministry…
“So, yes, repentance for the homosexual person and anyone else for that matter is repenting of who they are: behaviors, identity and all. This is why I believe it is important to clarify that just living a celibate gay life is just as sinful as living a sexually promiscuous one. The sin is in identifying with anything that is contrary to Christ, which homosexuality clearly is.”
This quote is from Alan’s book: God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door (pages 217-218). He makes no distinction between identity and behavior. He said similar things this year on his website .. see here
——-
By the way those are rather interesting and judgmental descriptors (re:”worse than cancer”) that you are using. I guess you thought that by only applying it to (same sex) sexual activity that makes it all OK. I have to wonder if you think premarital heterosexual sex is also worse than cancer … or if divorce is worse than cancer .. or if remarriage after divorce is worse than cancer or if any of these things I listed destroy the entire person. I kind of doubt it .. It seems you are making a special case here of same sex sex with your use of words. On the other hand .. if you really do want to consistently carry your cancer analogy to all behavior that is (in your opinion) immoral then it should also apply to what Exodus is doing when they fail to make distinctions .. or when they fail to tell the truth on their political page .. or when they misuse research to deceive others. However, you have defined Exodus as ‘awesome’ .. which is a far cry from ‘worse than cancer’.
For someone who claims to be non-judgmental .. you sure seem to pass a lot of judgment in your offhand statements.
I believe I have said this somewhere else here but I will say it again.. We don’t all agree here on what constitutes sexual morality or immorality. But, contrary to your (judgmental) statements, we do understand values and morals. And we agree on the need for validity and respect for personhood when referring to gay or lesbian persons
Dave
Jeremy:
Fine. That being so, it was quite inappropriate for you to write “Homosexuality destroys everything else about a person” as though it were a general statement that could be taken to apply to everyone else – or, indeed, necessarily to anyone else.
Worse than whom or what? And in what respect(s)? Until you have told us that, the assertion is, as near as makes no difference, quite meaningless to others.
Jeremy,
I’ve heard many vulgar things from straight people, even in conservative churches. Both Exodus and NARTH have said some pretty vulgar things imho 🙂
Jeremy,
You say you can’t judge us and then you turn around and judge us claiming we don’t understand anything about “the heart” or “values”. LOL
I can’t really expect it to make sense to anyone here. It’s about the heart and values. I have no room to judge anyone else. I was MUCH MUCH worse when I lived in a gay relationship.
The vulgarity of Throbert’s message reminded me of the things I used to say when I had a “gay” identity. I haven’t had much contact with anyone purposely involved in homosexual behavior or any “gay relationships” since I finally left that behind. I have also avoid pornography, etc.
Throbert’s post was very vulgar and that simply reminded of the kind of talk I often heard and participated in when I was in gay bars and even in gay “churches.” It was a sign of how corrupt my own soul was at the time.
@ Jeremy … ‘Nice’ of you to finally make distinctions (between identity and actions) but your friends at Exodus don’t..
I have shared this before but here is a quote by Alan Chambers, the head of Exodus, a well known and long established exgay ministry…
“So, yes, repentance for the homosexual person and anyone else for that matter is repenting of who they are: behaviors, identity and all. This is why I believe it is important to clarify that just living a celibate gay life is just as sinful as living a sexually promiscuous one. The sin is in identifying with anything that is contrary to Christ, which homosexuality clearly is.”
This quote is from Alan’s book: God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door (pages 217-218). He makes no distinction between identity and behavior. He said similar things this year on his website .. see here
——-
By the way those are rather interesting and judgmental descriptors (re:”worse than cancer”) that you are using. I guess you thought that by only applying it to (same sex) sexual activity that makes it all OK. I have to wonder if you think premarital heterosexual sex is also worse than cancer … or if divorce is worse than cancer .. or if remarriage after divorce is worse than cancer or if any of these things I listed destroy the entire person. I kind of doubt it .. It seems you are making a special case here of same sex sex with your use of words. On the other hand .. if you really do want to consistently carry your cancer analogy to all behavior that is (in your opinion) immoral then it should also apply to what Exodus is doing when they fail to make distinctions .. or when they fail to tell the truth on their political page .. or when they misuse research to deceive others. However, you have defined Exodus as ‘awesome’ .. which is a far cry from ‘worse than cancer’.
For someone who claims to be non-judgmental .. you sure seem to pass a lot of judgment in your offhand statements.
I believe I have said this somewhere else here but I will say it again.. We don’t all agree here on what constitutes sexual morality or immorality. But, contrary to your (judgmental) statements, we do understand values and morals. And we agree on the need for validity and respect for personhood when referring to gay or lesbian persons
Dave
Jeremy,
I’ve heard many vulgar things from straight people, even in conservative churches. Both Exodus and NARTH have said some pretty vulgar things imho 🙂
Jeremy,
You say you can’t judge us and then you turn around and judge us claiming we don’t understand anything about “the heart” or “values”. LOL
I can’t really expect it to make sense to anyone here. It’s about the heart and values. I have no room to judge anyone else. I was MUCH MUCH worse when I lived in a gay relationship.
The vulgarity of Throbert’s message reminded me of the things I used to say when I had a “gay” identity. I haven’t had much contact with anyone purposely involved in homosexual behavior or any “gay relationships” since I finally left that behind. I have also avoid pornography, etc.
Throbert’s post was very vulgar and that simply reminded of the kind of talk I often heard and participated in when I was in gay bars and even in gay “churches.” It was a sign of how corrupt my own soul was at the time.
Warren,
In keeping with my habit of veering away from the actual topic I have to ask, have you read this book? I’ve looked at several synopses and it sounds interesting 🙂
Throbert –
You would think. Even non-procreative heterosexual couples can get married.
Jeremy,
Just in case you don’t understand Throbert’s comment, he was saying that your post did not make any sense 🙂
Warren,
In keeping with my habit of veering away from the actual topic I have to ask, have you read this book? I’ve looked at several synopses and it sounds interesting 🙂
Jeremy,
Just in case you don’t understand Throbert’s comment, he was saying that your post did not make any sense 🙂
Well I am a Christian, and I know Jesus. Does that mean it is possible for me to change into a parrot and fly to California. Would that “change” be possible for me? I’m also 5’11”, but would like to be 7’4″ tall. Is that change possible through my relationship with Christ? If I doubt the possibility of that “change”, am I not really a Christian?
From the article, above:
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/18908
World Magazine has done these puff-pieces for Exodus before. May as well be a press release. Same writer even.
“… with the bonus of some politely soft-spoken smears against individuals who identify as both gay and Christian.”
That was rather cryptic, Throbert. Would you elaborate?
(I take it that you meant that Chambers was having a ‘dig’ at ‘liberal’ Christians who have no problem with loving same-sex partnerships.)
Throbert, to bad World magazine does not have a place to enter comments.
That was rather cryptic, Jeremy. Would you elaborate?
SG — Nice little puff piece on Chambers, with the bonus of some politely soft-spoken smears against individuals who identify as both gay and Christian.
(E.g., the suggestion that such people are indifferent to the virtue of self-denial, and live only for self-affirmation.)
Thanks Throbert,
I think your post more than proved my point.
Well I am a Christian, and I know Jesus. Does that mean it is possible for me to change into a parrot and fly to California. Would that “change” be possible for me? I’m also 5’11”, but would like to be 7’4″ tall. Is that change possible through my relationship with Christ? If I doubt the possibility of that “change”, am I not really a Christian?
From the article, above:
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/18908
Did you see this article on Alan Chambers?
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/18908
Jeremy attributes an astonishing amount of power to “homosexual behavior”, whatever he means by that.
I mean… let me offer a concrete example. Suppose I invite another bachelor male over to my apartment for a DVD screening of Jarhead Jack-Off IV — a scintillating drama in which USMC enlisted men, lonely for intimacy, contrive a session of group masturbation in the barracks showers.
And suppose that the other fellow and I, during the cinematic entertainment, enjoy some beer in responsible and moderate quantities, and shed our clothes in order to be more comfortable, and then wank each other daft, as
the limeysBritish people say?I think that would easily qualify as “homosexual behavior”. But where exactly — in Jeremy’s estimation — does the destruction of mind and soul enter into it?
I mean, I can certainly understand the arguments for saying that procreative heterosexual acts ought to be more favored, and placed on a pedestal as a sort of Gold Standard, for the good of society.
But I would think that one can elevate procreative heterosexuality without attempting the overly-ambitious claim that homosexual behavior destroys mind and soul!
P.S. I was reading a bunch of Jeeves and Wooster stories last night…
Thanks Throbert,
I think your post more than proved my point.
Thanks, Jeremy, I appreciate the response.
Jeremy:
Just a glib assertion. I haven’t found it to be so.
Teresa, I apologize for the confusion. I was referring to homosexual behavior.
Teresa, I apologize for the confusion. I was referring to homosexual behavior.
Well, I suppose that Jeremy is trying to make the point that ‘homosexuality’ (though it’s not clear what he means by that, as Teresa points out) destroys mind and soul, as well as body.
(I’m sure that noone here is seriously suggesting that wild promiscuity is not potentially very harmful to self and to others, but such a ‘behaviour pattern’ is radically different from, say, a same-sex couple in a loving civil partnership.)
This doesn’t even make any sense. That’s like saying “being left-handed destroys everything else about a person.” I can’t even see the leap in logic that was taken. It seriously just makes zero sense to me.
Jeremy,
According to your beliefs!
I’m not sure if Warren is writing about Living Hope or not. I was speaking about Ex-Gay Watch.
That comment tells me all that I really need to know about you, Jeremy, and it comes as no surprise whatsoever. With it you lay waste to the deceptive, happy-dippy tone you have brought to the other threads. You can breath easier now without the pretext.
Correction, that is Living hope
Jeremy, are you living at New Horizons?
Well, I suppose that Jeremy is trying to make the point that ‘homosexuality’ (though it’s not clear what he means by that, as Teresa points out) destroys mind and soul, as well as body.
(I’m sure that noone here is seriously suggesting that wild promiscuity is not potentially very harmful to self and to others, but such a ‘behaviour pattern’ is radically different from, say, a same-sex couple in a loving civil partnership.)
@ Jeremy .. Well I guess your true colors are coming out .. It was already shared with you in another thread, I believe, that Dr’sThrockmorton and Yarhouse do have an alternative to this bogus change therapy .. its called SITF .. Sexual Identity Therapy Framework. So .. its a lie when you say no alternative is offered. Lying .. talking out of both sides of your mouth .. deception .. lack of credibility .. playing the victim .. actiing like an attack on bogus therapy is an attack on Christianity .. blah blah blah ..We’ve heard it all before .. I would have to say that you have learned well from Exodus and company .. you parrot what they do very well.
Dave
I just went to Amazon and bought a book $14.95 on New Hope Ministries. It is called
.
It is the Kindle edition and if you don’t have a Kindle like I don’t have one, Amazon has a free app and you can download it and read Kindle books on your computer. I have multiple computers and it is real easy to have the same book on many computers. Oh and you can lend the book also. I will write back after I read the book.
Jeremy, can you clear up the ambiguity of using the term ‘homosexuality’? Are you talking about same-sex sexual behavior; or, are you saying that simply being same-sex attracted destroys everything else about a person?
It’s this kind of rhetoric that fuels homophobia, which itself can lead to violence and murder.
This is the main reason why we challenge you, Jeremy. You start off ‘nice’, but as the veils come off, the nastiness becomes clear.
And now you’re back on the homosexuality = disease trolley. Oh dear.
Jeremy
I think you’re getting somewhat hyperbolic. Saying that a counsellor expressing her view that sexual orientation (though presumably not behaviour patterns) is immutable is worse than injecting someone with heroin is … well … a bit daft, isn’t it?
I am in moderation again.
Jeremy, I will not speak for others only myself. I disrespect Exodus and Living Hope Ministries because for at least 90% of the people it doesn’t work. It may seem short term like it is working, but long term it doesn’t. And when you finally wake up to this years from now you will find that your youth was stolen from you.
I don’t believe this from the Living Hope website
http://livehope.org/2011/07/20/investing-with-kingdom-dividends/
But at least since you brought Living Hope Ministry to my attention, I now know that they are the biggest players at Exodus.
Jeremy, I truly am afraid for you. There is not a lot I can do for you over the internet. Your statement about rather being a heroin addict than being gay is truly frighting Jeremy. Calm yourself Jeremy, calm yourself.
The comments on this thread and their giddiness about the anticipated downfall of a ministry are appalling.
Exodus doesn’t really have a psychoanalytic view of homosexuality. I really don’t see how attacking a religious ministry is aligned with your claims of objective scientific analysis.
If you were truly being objective, you would also look into the wild claims of the pro-gay side. Proving that therapy is sometimes ineffective, doesn’t make homosexual behavior healthy or natural. Even if EVERYTHING you said on here were true, it still be completely irrelevant to the core issue.
Attacking the treatments for homosexuality without offering an alternative is not really constructive. The treatments for Cancer (surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, etc.) are not 100% effective either, but that doesn’t make Cancer healthy.
I personally would consider Cancer FAR healthier than ANY kind of homosexual “relationship” – since cancer only attacks the body. Homosexuality destroys everything else about a person.
On another note, here is a really awesome song that Dennis Jernigan sang for us at Living Hope this past Thursday:
http://youtu.be/F29-AYDmSnI
No one said anything about nabbing anyone. I would agree with you that anything that instill Shame into anyone is a bad thing. I believe the quote was expressing dismay at seeing kids in that environment. I went to several gay pride parades in the past here in Dallas and they were often very vulgar. It would not be appropriate place for anyone under age.
In terms of therapy for teenagers, Dr. Nicolosi and others are very clear that is has to be self-motivated and not forced by parents or anyone else. There is a whole chapter on that in his book Shame & Attachment Loss.
The worst possible approach would be the counselor I talked with when I was in High School who told me I was “born gay” and “couldn’t change.” That is the most destructive advice ANYONE can give to a youth. It would have been far better if she had told me I was “born to be a Heroin addict” and then shoved a needle in my arm.
I tend to agree with SGm, and might even go further and aver that same-sex relationships per se are not the subject of biblical condemnation in the New Testament.
Of course, there are certain standards of behaviour that are consistent with genuine attempts to live according to Christ’s teachings and those in other parts of the New Testament. From what he said, Jeremy seems in the past not to have embraced those standards when to comes to his ‘sex life’, and, like both Warren and SGm, I would say ‘good on him’ for making certain behavioural changes. I would also say that the behavioural changes he made might not necessarily have been the only ones he might have made, although, not knowing him and his situation personally, I am not really in a position to make a properly informed judgement on that.
Warren =
If your support groups help you live in accord with the actual teachings of Christ, then good on you
StraightGrangmother =
If your support groups help you live in accordence with your faith
the actual teachings of Christ,then good on you.Because the actual teachings of Christ remain in dispute. Christ never once talked about homosexuality.
StraightGrandmother, I can’t express too strongly my agreement with that statement. Unless a teenager’s emerging sexuality shows harmful traits, e.g. sexual coercion of others or persistent sexual attraction to much younger people, then any officious attempt to tamper with it is tantamount to abuse.
I find the silly games that the “ex-gay” crowd play with this word “identity” slightly amusing but also irritating. Being gay isn’t an identity; it’s a personality trait, just as being straight is. All right, one’s sexual orientation may be regarded as a part of one’s identity – and perhaps a not insignificant one – but not one that a person adopts or “embraces” any more than, for example, the colour of his/her eyes. Looked at from that point of view, being gay is a no less legitimate part of one person’s identity than being straight is of another’s.
Jeremy said:
That is where you are off. My blog challenges poor scholarship and confirmation bias. I point out distortions of research made by reparative therapists and others. I have changed my views on the science of homosexuality based on studies which NARTH ignores as well as those they distort. However, my resolve to help people who want to live in accord with their faith has not wavered.
Perhaps you don’t have the history but at one time the approach you promote was the pop psychology view of homosexuality. Before Bieber came along and said homosexuality was due to bad fathers and smother mothers, the focus was mostly on the mothers. At the same time, many psychoanalysts thought homosexuality was partly due to constitutional factors along with oedipal concerns. Read this article for the pop psychology view of homosexuality in the 1960s.
Psychoanalytic views of homosexuality are not in my religious statement of faith or the statutes of God. If your support groups help you live in accord with the actual teachings of Christ, then good on you. However, no one needs to accept faulty science in order to live as a Christian.
He says in Psalm 119 that they are plotting against HIM and that he will focus instead on God and his statutes. I was pointing out that this blog is vindictive toward ANYONE who dares to help anyone who doesn’t want to be defined by the modern pop-psychology view of homosexuality.
Yes AJ, I haven’t received any of the “old Exodus rhetoric” at Living Hope. I have seen the positive effects of this ministry in a many lives.
I am critical of them on some issues and would change a few SMALL things there if I could. However, I wouldn’t want them to be shut down or eliminated any more than I would want that for any other major source of GOOD in this world (Red Cross, Peace Corps, Boy Scouts, etc.)
Richard, exactly! That is why I quoted that statement from the Living Hope Ministries,
They’re embracing an identity that shouldn’t even exist
It is not enough that sexual minorities are “bad” they shouldn’t even exist if this is the way they act, according to Living Hope Ministries.
Jeremy, I will not speak for others only myself. I disrespect Exodus and Living Hope Ministries because for at least 90% of the people it doesn’t work. It may seem short term like it is working, but long term it doesn’t. And when you finally wake up to this years from now you will find that your youth was stolen from you.
I don’t believe this from the Living Hope website
http://livehope.org/2011/07/20/investing-with-kingdom-dividends/
But at least since you brought Living Hope Ministry to my attention, I now know that they are the biggest players at Exodus.
Whoops … I think got lost in the ‘they said / he said / she said’ maze! Jeremy Shwab has not, to my knowledge, expressed the opinion that the aforementioned ‘identity’ ‘should not exist’ – it was something on the LHM website, I gather. Apologies.
I have to say that I find the thinking implicit in the statement “… they’re embracing an identity that shouldn’t even exist” most alarming. Who is any of us to say who should or shouldn’t exist?
In any case, on what grounds does Jeremy Schwab say that this ‘identity’ (as if all gay people had the same ‘identity’!) should not exist?
Yes AJ, I haven’t received any of the “old Exodus rhetoric” at Living Hope. I have seen the positive effects of this ministry in a many lives.
I am critical of them on some issues and would change a few SMALL things there if I could. However, I wouldn’t want them to be shut down or eliminated any more than I would want that for any other major source of GOOD in this world (Red Cross, Peace Corps, Boy Scouts, etc.)
Richard, exactly! That is why I quoted that statement from the Living Hope Ministries,
They’re embracing an identity that shouldn’t even exist
It is not enough that sexual minorities are “bad” they shouldn’t even exist if this is the way they act, according to Living Hope Ministries.
Whoops … I think got lost in the ‘they said / he said / she said’ maze! Jeremy Shwab has not, to my knowledge, expressed the opinion that the aforementioned ‘identity’ ‘should not exist’ – it was something on the LHM website, I gather. Apologies.
@ Jeremy … You are starting to sound rather phoney here .. especially when you are talking out of both sides of your mouth as AJ shows above. Your painting of all these organizations as “awesome” without showing depth or discernmemt either shows a lack of credibility (to the point of deception) or a total nievety on your part.
None of these characteristics .. talking out of both sides of your mouth .. lack of credibility …. deception … nievety .. is defendable by Psalms 119:23 nor any other passage in scripture.
Dave
I have to say that I find the thinking implicit in the statement “… they’re embracing an identity that shouldn’t even exist” most alarming. Who is any of us to say who should or shouldn’t exist?
In any case, on what grounds does Jeremy Schwab say that this ‘identity’ (as if all gay people had the same ‘identity’!) should not exist?
Jeremy,
On November 17th you wrote the following on another thread:
Now you think Exodus is awesome?
Jeremy Schwab# ~ Dec 3, 2011 at 12:59 am
What you call “bashing” others would call “exposing fraud.” Nor do I believe your claims about NARTH et. al. doing “the MOST good” or being the “most helpful”. And I know you have no evidence to back up such a claim (keep in mind anecdotal evidence can’t be generalized to a broader population let alone be used to prove something is the most effective).
@ Jeremy … You are starting to sound rather phoney here .. especially when you are talking out of both sides of your mouth as AJ shows above. Your painting of all these organizations as “awesome” without showing depth or discernmemt either shows a lack of credibility (to the point of deception) or a total nievety on your part.
None of these characteristics .. talking out of both sides of your mouth .. lack of credibility …. deception … nievety .. is defendable by Psalms 119:23 nor any other passage in scripture.
Dave
Ps 119 does not apply here unless you are going to make a case that reparative therapy is a statute of God. I am certainly not attacking the statutes of God when I provide a true rendering of SOCEs.
Thanks David, I wouldn’t doubt that. I’ve noticed that this blog is designed soley for the purposes of bashing the individuals and groups that do the MOST good and those that are most helpful for real healing. I will let Ricky know to keep an eye out for the LH report. I personally would consider it a true HONOR to be bashed here in this blog.
Jeremy,
On November 17th you wrote the following on another thread:
Now you think Exodus is awesome?
I’d be interested to hear Warren’s thoughts on unChristian. I read it and thought it was a waste of time. Lyons acknowledges that Christians are coming off terribly to the rest of the world, and the Millennial generation in particular. But he has no meaningful solution. In fact, his own tone reflects the smarmy superiority complex that he decries in others.
For instance, he spends a lot of time telling the reader about how he found himself seated on an airplane next to a woman who, it turned out, worked as a stripper. Bizarrely, Lyons initially worried about how he would explain this to his wife, as if he had any role in selecting seats on an airliner and as if sitting next to a woman on a plane is the moral equivalent of copulating with her.
But then, he proceeds to share with the reader in great detail how wonderful he was because he actually found the strength to continue to sit next to her and talk with her. What a guy. My only question is why this woman would sully herself by sitting next to a smug clown like Lyons.
Jeremy Schwab# ~ Dec 3, 2011 at 12:59 am
What you call “bashing” others would call “exposing fraud.” Nor do I believe your claims about NARTH et. al. doing “the MOST good” or being the “most helpful”. And I know you have no evidence to back up such a claim (keep in mind anecdotal evidence can’t be generalized to a broader population let alone be used to prove something is the most effective).
@Jeremy Schwab
I actually expected you to drop in with a glowing “Exodus is Awesome” comment last night — you are late. Perhaps it would save time if you just relayed any ex-gay organizations which have not provided you with heavenly rapture and joy.
We actually have a report on LH coming up.
Ps 119 does not apply here unless you are going to make a case that reparative therapy is a statute of God. I am certainly not attacking the statutes of God when I provide a true rendering of SOCEs.
Thanks David, I wouldn’t doubt that. I’ve noticed that this blog is designed soley for the purposes of bashing the individuals and groups that do the MOST good and those that are most helpful for real healing. I will let Ricky know to keep an eye out for the LH report. I personally would consider it a true HONOR to be bashed here in this blog.
I know of several really awesome local Exodus groups that are thriving. I go to one here called Living Hope and we have been growing every year. It’s an AWESOME group!
I was there last night and got to meet Dennis Jernigan and his wife. He’s an amazing man and I’ve enjoyed his music for a long time. It was a great blessing to meet him in person.
I am in moderation purgatory again.
Jeremy,
I am surprised you linked to Living Hope Ministries apparently an Exodus affiliate per you. Did you read the blog on Gay Pride? This is quite disturbing. The author talks about seeing a Gay Pride Parade and he is lamenting the teenagers and what is that word (?) Pre-pubescent teenagers who are enjoying the parade-
This is scary, nabbing teenagers and trying to force them to be heterosexual. I think it should be a universal agreement that there should be hands off teenagers. No therapy, no pray away the gay, none of that. Let the kids grow up without instilling shame in them. If they want to seek this out on their own once they are an adult fine, but stay away from kids for goodness sake.
I also read the blog about their banquet, that ehm, piqued my interest.
Jeremy, I wish you well. You are an adult and you have the resources of the internet to find information. In your quest just remember that homosexuality is not a disease and does not need to be cured. You have the right to pursue your life as you wish, but on the same token it would not be right of you to denigrate sexual minorities who choose to live their life the way they want. In other words what is right for you is not right for everybody, and all people deserve respect and equal Civil Rights. By reading the Living Hope website I am doubtful that they agree. Best of luck, watch what you are getting into Jeremy, eyes wide open.
Thank you, Lynn David, for the headsup on this book and link. I wrote to Timothy Kincaid at BTB and provided him with the link, suggesting he read the book and write a review of it for BTB readers. He wrote back, thanking me for the link, and saying he will read it. I’m looking forward to his thoughts!
I’d be interested to hear Warren’s thoughts on unChristian. I read it and thought it was a waste of time. Lyons acknowledges that Christians are coming off terribly to the rest of the world, and the Millennial generation in particular. But he has no meaningful solution. In fact, his own tone reflects the smarmy superiority complex that he decries in others.
For instance, he spends a lot of time telling the reader about how he found himself seated on an airplane next to a woman who, it turned out, worked as a stripper. Bizarrely, Lyons initially worried about how he would explain this to his wife, as if he had any role in selecting seats on an airliner and as if sitting next to a woman on a plane is the moral equivalent of copulating with her.
But then, he proceeds to share with the reader in great detail how wonderful he was because he actually found the strength to continue to sit next to her and talk with her. What a guy. My only question is why this woman would sully herself by sitting next to a smug clown like Lyons.
@Jeremy Schwab
I actually expected you to drop in with a glowing “Exodus is Awesome” comment last night — you are late. Perhaps it would save time if you just relayed any ex-gay organizations which have not provided you with heavenly rapture and joy.
We actually have a report on LH coming up.
I know of several really awesome local Exodus groups that are thriving. I go to one here called Living Hope and we have been growing every year. It’s an AWESOME group!
I was there last night and got to meet Dennis Jernigan and his wife. He’s an amazing man and I’ve enjoyed his music for a long time. It was a great blessing to meet him in person.
I am in moderation purgatory again.
Mary, I know you are right, it was snarky. I shouldn’t have, and I usually don’t, but after watching that video of her on CNN I admit, I just wanted to lash out. It’s hard Mary to rise above every single time.
This is fascinating: http://www.paulonhomosexuality.com/
While I’m always ‘suspicious’ about anyone saying “this is it! this is the answer!”, I do find aspects of Wood’s analysis very compelling.
The Letter to the Romans, so often used to ‘condemn’ gays, does contain some very profound conundrums. Perhaps this shouldn’t really surprise as, at the very heart of Christianity, there is perhaps the greatest conundrum imaginable: that of Good Friday.
Ya know… you may not like someone of what they stand for but to specualte about their sexuality is kind of imposing. I don’t like it when people do it to me. Sexuality is between that person and their partner.
Warren you have not written much lately about the presidential Primaries but I believe Michelle Bachman’s comments in Iowa yesterday will be of interest to you, particularly how she basically says that there should be no civil rights for sexual minorities as it is after all only behavior and that gay men should simply marry a woman (I will refrain from saying, “Like her husband did”) Oh and she would eliminate the Dept of Education and support local schools who wanted to re-instituite school prayer. There is a lot in here on crazy eyes for you Warren
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-710804?hpt=hp_bn2
One might wonder if interpretations such as this might spur such a ‘rebranding:’
http://www.paulonhomosexuality.com/
Warren, I would love reading an article on Alan Chambers flip flops. I kind if remember you writing about that, no?
I agree wtih Michael B .. Unfortunately I doubt they will do this .. IMHO (or best guess) their main financial support comes from people who would not accept this type of move.
Dave
I agree with all of your points Michael B. I would add that in their apology they should affirm the civil rights of sexual minorities that are happy with themselves. I want to see a clear separation on their part, of their religious beliefs and their respect for our American Constitution and the rights of all people to self determination.
StraightGrandmother: Although nothing would make me happier than to see Exodus close its doors for good, I doubt that will happen. They will try to hold on. What they might want to consider in the meantime:
1. Follow Wendy Gritter’s advice to them some years ago, when she urged the Exodus leadership to “deal humbly and transparently with the perception that we have lied” (about orientation change).
2. Officially break all ties with NARTH.
3.. Stick to helping conservative Christians who believe that gayness is sin to remain celibate or stay in their mixed-orientation marriages (if that is what both spouses desire).
4. Issue a formal apology for ever having gotten involved in anti-gay politics.
Of course, these changes would hurt them financially, and they don’t seem to be in a position to lose any more supporters or donors.
First off and I should have said this earlier KUDOS to EX-GayWatch David Roberts for bringing us this joyous news. MWAH!
I went to a couple different website to peruse comments on this story and this comment on Box Turtle Bulletin I thought was great
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/30/39229#comment-111038
Warren is your real name- Warren Verify Throckmorton? It seems like verify is your middle name.
Seekingtruth – Do you have evidence that the report is not true?
I asked Alan Chambers for comment early this morning. If he has a different understanding or says this is not accurate, then I will print that.
One who seeks truth should seek it wherever it is, right?
@ Seekingtruth:
Well, you won’t find this kind of information on a PRO-Exodus Internaional website, will you?
Warren, I would love reading an article on Alan Chambers flip flops. I kind if remember you writing about that, no?
I agree wtih Michael B .. Unfortunately I doubt they will do this .. IMHO (or best guess) their main financial support comes from people who would not accept this type of move.
Dave
Michael, I bet for you personally if Exodus folded it would be a huge relief for you, since you were one of the founders. I can’t imagine it has been easy for you all these years with it still being in existence.
Holding my breath and hoping this is so.
You would actually direct people to a website that is clearly biased AGAINST Exodus International? When there’s bias there’s a muddling of the truth. I would view everything coming from ExGayWatch with much skepticism.
Sweet, early Christmas present.
Remember when Warren wrote oh maybe a month ago, “Is this the end of the ex-gay movement?”
Not only are they short of money but I bet they are short of applicants into their programs.
Now if somebody, a former patient would successfully sue NARTH and take them down the world would be a better place. Good News on Exodus though!!!
First off and I should have said this earlier KUDOS to EX-GayWatch David Roberts for bringing us this joyous news. MWAH!
I went to a couple different website to peruse comments on this story and this comment on Box Turtle Bulletin I thought was great
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/11/30/39229#comment-111038
Warren is your real name- Warren Verify Throckmorton? It seems like verify is your middle name.
Note the emphasis on money and how best to raise it from a population that is increasingly skeptical of Exodus’s views.
Perhaps Alan Chambers will have to get a real job.
Seekingtruth – Do you have evidence that the report is not true?
I asked Alan Chambers for comment early this morning. If he has a different understanding or says this is not accurate, then I will print that.
One who seeks truth should seek it wherever it is, right?
Michael, I bet for you personally if Exodus folded it would be a huge relief for you, since you were one of the founders. I can’t imagine it has been easy for you all these years with it still being in existence.
Sweet, early Christmas present.
Remember when Warren wrote oh maybe a month ago, “Is this the end of the ex-gay movement?”
Not only are they short of money but I bet they are short of applicants into their programs.
Now if somebody, a former patient would successfully sue NARTH and take them down the world would be a better place. Good News on Exodus though!!!
Note the emphasis on money and how best to raise it from a population that is increasingly skeptical of Exodus’s views.
Perhaps Alan Chambers will have to get a real job.