David Barton promotes The Jefferson Lies

In an email to supporters, David Barton discloses the title of his upcoming book on Thomas Jefferson — The Jefferson Lies.

 
Barton is well qualified to speak about distortions of Jefferson’s work and beliefs since he has spread so many of them. I wonder if he will recant any of them in this book. He could start here, here, here, here, here, here, and/or here.
I am actually glad to see this. Publishing a book on Jefferson via a major publisher could provide the trigger for a broad conversation about Barton’s historical revisions. Perhaps, historians, including those that teach at other Christian institutions, will rise up en masse in response. I can imagine that we will see scathing book reviews in various religious publications which might wake up some Christians.
For more on David Barton, see this link.

104 thoughts on “David Barton promotes The Jefferson Lies”

  1. Patrocles# ~ Nov 24, 2011 at 12:20 am
    “personally I believe in reason. I don’t believe in authority – neither the authority of masses, nor the authority of professionals. Meaning, I’m not much interested in “what every professional historian in the United States” thinks. Every professional historian in the United States has been wrong before.”
    by authority, I’m assuming you mean expertise. Now to be an expert in a field, doesn’t make you infallible, and using such a criteria for determining expertise would never work. An expert in a particular field is someone who has a significant amount of knowledge of the field and (more importantly) the ability to defend his/her ideas in rational discourse with other experts in the field.
    From what I’ve seen, Barton not only doesn’t have significant knowledge of US history, but he also only picks venues where he can AVOID any sort of confrontation with experts in US history.

  2. Patro-

    personally I believe in reason. I don’t believe in authority – neither the authority of masses, nor the authority of professionals.

    So you don’t believe in doctors, or engineers, or psychologists, or biologists, etc? I find it difficult to interpret this phrase of yours. SURE professionals get things wrong some times, but so what? Doctors get things wrong sometimes, but that doesn’t mean I want to run to the guy trumpeting reason for a medical procedure. “Professionals”, at least the way you seem to be using the term, are people who’ve dedicated their lives to a particular area of study. If a majority of historians are saying something, I think it would do us all well to at least listen.
    It sounds to me like this is a way for you to just dismiss “professional” proclamations that you don’t like.

  3. Even if Barton’s own interpretation of Jefferson is not correct, that wouldn’t prevent him from successfully uncovering incorrect interpretations by his opponents
    For example, Jefferson is incorrectly branded as a “deist”- but he didn’t believe in a god who had retreated after creation, but in a god who immediately governed over the world. (Unhappily, he seems to have lacked.understanding for human destructiveness (sin), suffering and vicarious suffering – vicarious suffering being the title under which Jesus was entitled to be seen as the perceivable aspect of God.)
    But, like “oft”, I supose that the real interesting question is what Jefferson thought about the Church-State-relations. Which is still open to debate.

  4. Timothy Kincad.
    personally I believe in reason. I don’t believe in authority – neither the authority of masses, nor the authority of professionals. Meaning, I’m not much interested in “what every professional historian in the United States” thinks. Every professional historian in the United States has been wrong before.
    Resulting from the fact that professional historians form a particular class with its particulat culture and particular prejudices.

  5. I wish I had more time to devote to it because it is an immensely important issue. Let me see how I can handle this…

    Of course. Though I feel a bit arrogant saying I’ll “let you” handle it – it is after all, your blog! So I’ll just give you my thanks.
    Now back to Jefferson?
    Yes, there’s ideologically motovated distortion. Yes, you’ve shown that. I don’t see a mass rising of evangelical scholars pointing this out though, there’s too much polarisation. Few are interested in the truth, those that are prefer to stay out of a fight that’s becoming increasingly personal (you Heretic!), and which could impact their employment.
    Yes, I’m aware of the pressure put on your college to rid themselves of this turbulent prof. Grove City College is as exceptional as you are in supporting you.
    Facts are. Reality wins in the end. It’s going to happen anyway, no matter what you or Barton do or do not do. It might take awhile, centuries in some cases, and hastening the process as you’re attempting to do is good. But if, and I think when, Barton’s beliefs are allowed to remain unchallenged by Evangelicals, please don’t be too discouraged. It’s just the Culture War.

  6. Today’s tweet from Bryan Fischer, senior policy analyst at the $20 million/year Christian organization, the American Family Association:
    “Time to declare victory in the war on poverty, shut down welfare. 80% of “poor” have AC, 75% own cars, 2/3 have cable.”
    Warren, how long are you going to attach yourself to this corrupted religio-ideology? You are too good and too decent a man for this.

    1. David – Thanks for the kind words. My view is that there are bad actors among all ideologies and Fischer seems to excel at proving that point. .

  7. Warren,
    As the quote above clearly states, separation doctrine pertains to everyone because separation doctrine is derived from Natural Law, which applies to everyone. TJ also allows any State to establish any religion it wants which he has “ever believed.’

  8. oft – The Kaskaskia Indians were not a state. There is no separation issue when the federal govt. deals with another sovereign entity.
    What did Jefferson champion regarding religion in his own state of VA?

  9. Article 3 Kaskaskia Treaty
    “the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church.”
    Above is a clear violation of modern separation doctrine, and along with my previous quote, TJ contadicts it, and he believed a State could form whatever religion they wanted:
    “I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority..Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands..But I have ever believed, that..what might be a right in a State government, was a violation of that right when assumed by another.”
    –to Rev. Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808
    Ultimately, TJ is violating the Indian’s rights even if the tribe was all catholic, which they weren’t. Your rebuttal that the tribes are a sovereign nation does not refute the plain language in the Article, given TJ founded his justification on Natural Rights–that applied to everyone.

  10. oft – You apparently have an honorary degree from the David Barton school of History. You are wrong on each of your points as is clear from a review of the links I supplied in the post.

  11. oft# ~ Nov 16, 2011 at 5:03 pm
    “You need to prove what I said was incorrect with the framers’ own writings.”
    No, YOU need to prove they are correct. You made the statements.
    “Above is a clear violation of modern separation doctrine, ”
    I don’t believe it is as clear as you claim. this was part of a treaty with another nation, not a government program within US borders. It is likely the Kaskaskia tribe wanted this and the treaty was simply stipulating how the money was to be spent rather than just a lump some that could be spent on anything they wanted.

  12. Despite Barton’s errors, it doesn’t change the fact none of the framers were ecumenists, that modern separation of church and state is beyond bogus, and that Thomas Jefferson gave OUR tax-payer money to establish Christian Churches to people protected by his Natural Rights philosophy–most of the Indian tribes he gave money to weren’t all catholic, proving TJ believed the First Amendment referred only to an establishment of a Christian Denomination:
    “What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals.”
    –TJ TO JM, 6 Sept. 1789

  13. Why is anyone bothering with “oft”? The individual is clearly a copy and paste artist – not caring at all about the diversity and depth of the founding fathers (let alone anyone else). These are complex arguments and “oft” has no capability to argue either pro or con to those issues.
    To “oft” – one cannot judge a single individual based on a single action or quote over decades of life. Especially out of context of the time. Get a life.

  14. Our friend Bryan Fischer made the Winter 2011 edition of the magazine Intelligents Reports published by the Southern Poverty Law Center

    Nor has it prevented him from suggesting that gay sex should be penalized in the same way heroin use is, or asserting that gay men and lesbians should be forced into controversial “reparative therapy,” which improbably claims to “cure” people of their homosexuality. Since joining the AFA, Fischer has said, against all the evidence, that “homosexuals, as a group, are the single greatest perpetrators of hate crimes on the planet, outside the Muslim religion.” He has claimed that non-Christian religions “have no First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion,” which would have been a surprise to the authors of the Bill of Rights. He said that the “sexual immorality of Native Americans” was part of what made them “morally disqualified from sovereign control of American soil.” He even suggested the best way to deal with promiscuity would be to kill the promiscuous.

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2011/winter/the-story-behind-afas-bryan-fischer

  15. StraightGrandmother = One thing I will agree with you is I am overwrought
    Mick =

    Straight Grandmother, you do seem “overwhelmed” although I think a better word is “overwrought”

    StraightGrandmother = I AM overwrought at the murders of persons who areTransgender and really tender in my heart are the Bullycides of young people. What you wrote is true, I am overwrought. Nail me to a cross Mick.
    I was in Washington DC in 1968 just after Martin Luther King was murdered, for Resurrection City. I saw injustice then against black Americans and I see injustice today against sexual minorities. And I am not going to shut up and be quiet about it. If that makes me

    downright rude and pushy and presumptive

    Well Mick, I guess I can live with that, I am not going to shut up.

  16. Zoe – I wish I had more time to devote to it because it is an immensely important issue. Let me see how I can handle this…

  17. Yeah Dave you are right. TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance is not relevant to David Barton and Jefferson Lies. But you see sometimes Dave some of us are so emotionally overwhelmed about Discrimination against sexual minorities that we sometime go off topic, especially when it is topical, like TDOR, that only comes once a year. Warren is rather A-Politcal with this blog but many of us who stay and visit here are not. I would appreciate it if you would cut Zoe a little slack as there is not a good place on Warrens Blog to mark the memorial other than a current topic.
    I hope you will agree that most of the time we do stay on topic. But sometimes we can’t. We need to vent sometimes Dave. There is a reason that “T” is the last letter in LGBT. They are our brothers and sisters and a minority within a minority. The least we can do is honor them on their Day of Remembrance, even if it is off topic.

  18. Zoe,
    I suggest you find it before you keep claiming it .. else you sound like the far right .. which .. I am sure .. is not your intention..
    Note: I am not quite clear what this all has to do with the Jefferson Lies
    Dave

  19. What qualifies Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter as historians exactly?
    “Throckmorton is a psychology professor at Grove College currently writing about sexual orientation and identity, and Coulter teaches political science there.”
    So how does a psychology professor and a political science professor qualify as historians??
    Clay Jenkinson, another critic of Barton’s work is described as “an American humanities scholar, author, and educator.” What qualifies HIM as an historian?
    Need I remind the reader of the DEFINITION of “humanities”: The humanities are academic disciplines that study the human condition, using methods that are primarily analytical, critical, or SPECULATIVE, as distinguished from the mainly EMPIRICAL APPROACHES of the natural sciences. — wiki (emphasis mine!)
    Alan Crawford, another critic, is “a journalist and author”. What qualifies HIM as an historian?
    The Jefferson Lies: Taking on the Critics
    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

  20. What qualifies Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter as historians exactly?
    “Throckmorton is a psychology professor at Grove College currently writing about sexual orientation and identity, and Coulter teaches political science there.”
    So how does a psychology professor and a political science professor qualify as historians??
    Clay Jenkinson, another critic of Barton’s work is described as “an American humanities scholar, author, and educator.” What qualifies HIM as an historian?
    Need I remind the reader of the DEFINITION of “humanities”: The humanities are academic disciplines that study the human condition, using methods that are primarily analytical, critical, or SPECULATIVE, as distinguished from the mainly EMPIRICAL APPROACHES of the natural sciences. — wiki (emphasis mine!)
    Alan Crawford, another critic, is “a journalist and author”. What qualifies HIM as an historian?
    The Jefferson Lies: Taking on the Critics
    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=118208

  21. Patrocles# ~ Nov 24, 2011 at 12:20 am
    “personally I believe in reason. I don’t believe in authority – neither the authority of masses, nor the authority of professionals. Meaning, I’m not much interested in “what every professional historian in the United States” thinks. Every professional historian in the United States has been wrong before.”
    by authority, I’m assuming you mean expertise. Now to be an expert in a field, doesn’t make you infallible, and using such a criteria for determining expertise would never work. An expert in a particular field is someone who has a significant amount of knowledge of the field and (more importantly) the ability to defend his/her ideas in rational discourse with other experts in the field.
    From what I’ve seen, Barton not only doesn’t have significant knowledge of US history, but he also only picks venues where he can AVOID any sort of confrontation with experts in US history.

  22. Patro-

    personally I believe in reason. I don’t believe in authority – neither the authority of masses, nor the authority of professionals.

    So you don’t believe in doctors, or engineers, or psychologists, or biologists, etc? I find it difficult to interpret this phrase of yours. SURE professionals get things wrong some times, but so what? Doctors get things wrong sometimes, but that doesn’t mean I want to run to the guy trumpeting reason for a medical procedure. “Professionals”, at least the way you seem to be using the term, are people who’ve dedicated their lives to a particular area of study. If a majority of historians are saying something, I think it would do us all well to at least listen.
    It sounds to me like this is a way for you to just dismiss “professional” proclamations that you don’t like.

  23. Timothy Kincad.
    personally I believe in reason. I don’t believe in authority – neither the authority of masses, nor the authority of professionals. Meaning, I’m not much interested in “what every professional historian in the United States” thinks. Every professional historian in the United States has been wrong before.
    Resulting from the fact that professional historians form a particular class with its particulat culture and particular prejudices.

  24. Even if Barton’s own interpretation of Jefferson is not correct, that wouldn’t prevent him from successfully uncovering incorrect interpretations by his opponents
    For example, Jefferson is incorrectly branded as a “deist”- but he didn’t believe in a god who had retreated after creation, but in a god who immediately governed over the world. (Unhappily, he seems to have lacked.understanding for human destructiveness (sin), suffering and vicarious suffering – vicarious suffering being the title under which Jesus was entitled to be seen as the perceivable aspect of God.)
    But, like “oft”, I supose that the real interesting question is what Jefferson thought about the Church-State-relations. Which is still open to debate.

  25. Were Barton to be judged based on what he presented, he’d soon find himself ringing up Dockers down at the local Sears’ mens department. But Barton has an advantage: the Culture War.
    Under the rules of the Culture War, your opponent doesn’t simply disagree. He does so because he is evil. And everything he says is a lie. He is either a superstitious ignorant redneck hater or an immoral hedonistic atheist.
    And under the rules of the Culture War, religious people are on one side, the side of God, and academics, researchers, historians and any of the “ivory tower elite” all belong by default to the side that works for Satan and hates America. Anything they say can be presumed to be an attack on religious freedom and an effort to silence Christians and promote the atheistic socialistic destruction of society. Basically, anyone on the non-religious side of the culture war is presumed to have the same credibility as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their statements are false unless unquestionably proven otherwise.
    So if all of the historians in the country agreed that the Q in John Q Adams stands for Quincy, that is not a decided fact but a somewhat questionable theory that may be true but also may be a lie designed to discredit the Founding Fathers and their faith in God.
    What the Side of God really needs is someone who can answer for them which of the statements of the liberal atheist educational elite are true and which are attacks on faith. And David Barton fits the bill exactly. He not only is a member of God’s side, but he is a fierce combatant against Satan and his army.
    So if Barton announced that the Q in John Q Adams stands for Quoopsiedoodle, he is – by definition – right and all other historians are pulling some shady business to advance their immoral atheistic goals. And the Texas Textbook Committee would demand new accurate textbooks be presented with the TRUE name of John Q. Adams.
    And there is no doubting the honesty or accuracy of Barton. He is a Christian and Christians, by default, don’t lie. Especially when the in disagreement with the World. And if you do dare suggest that the proclamations of the Culture War are not exactly factual, then you are a traitor working to advance Satan’s Plan.
    Frankly, it doesn’t matter if every Christian historian denounces Barton. They would then simply be revealing themselves to have sold out to the elite and are placing the World before Christ and have lost their faith in God.
    Because, as a prominent voice in the Culture War, Barton has proven himself to be a soldier for God. And because God is the TRUTH then ipso facto so are the words of David Barton.

  26. Were Barton to be judged based on what he presented, he’d soon find himself ringing up Dockers down at the local Sears’ mens department. But Barton has an advantage: the Culture War.
    Under the rules of the Culture War, your opponent doesn’t simply disagree. He does so because he is evil. And everything he says is a lie. He is either a superstitious ignorant redneck hater or an immoral hedonistic atheist.
    And under the rules of the Culture War, religious people are on one side, the side of God, and academics, researchers, historians and any of the “ivory tower elite” all belong by default to the side that works for Satan and hates America. Anything they say can be presumed to be an attack on religious freedom and an effort to silence Christians and promote the atheistic socialistic destruction of society. Basically, anyone on the non-religious side of the culture war is presumed to have the same credibility as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and their statements are false unless unquestionably proven otherwise.
    So if all of the historians in the country agreed that the Q in John Q Adams stands for Quincy, that is not a decided fact but a somewhat questionable theory that may be true but also may be a lie designed to discredit the Founding Fathers and their faith in God.
    What the Side of God really needs is someone who can answer for them which of the statements of the liberal atheist educational elite are true and which are attacks on faith. And David Barton fits the bill exactly. He not only is a member of God’s side, but he is a fierce combatant against Satan and his army.
    So if Barton announced that the Q in John Q Adams stands for Quoopsiedoodle, he is – by definition – right and all other historians are pulling some shady business to advance their immoral atheistic goals. And the Texas Textbook Committee would demand new accurate textbooks be presented with the TRUE name of John Q. Adams.
    And there is no doubting the honesty or accuracy of Barton. He is a Christian and Christians, by default, don’t lie. Especially when the in disagreement with the World. And if you do dare suggest that the proclamations of the Culture War are not exactly factual, then you are a traitor working to advance Satan’s Plan.
    Frankly, it doesn’t matter if every Christian historian denounces Barton. They would then simply be revealing themselves to have sold out to the elite and are placing the World before Christ and have lost their faith in God.
    Because, as a prominent voice in the Culture War, Barton has proven himself to be a soldier for God. And because God is the TRUTH then ipso facto so are the words of David Barton.

  27. I wish I had more time to devote to it because it is an immensely important issue. Let me see how I can handle this…

    Of course. Though I feel a bit arrogant saying I’ll “let you” handle it – it is after all, your blog! So I’ll just give you my thanks.
    Now back to Jefferson?
    Yes, there’s ideologically motovated distortion. Yes, you’ve shown that. I don’t see a mass rising of evangelical scholars pointing this out though, there’s too much polarisation. Few are interested in the truth, those that are prefer to stay out of a fight that’s becoming increasingly personal (you Heretic!), and which could impact their employment.
    Yes, I’m aware of the pressure put on your college to rid themselves of this turbulent prof. Grove City College is as exceptional as you are in supporting you.
    Facts are. Reality wins in the end. It’s going to happen anyway, no matter what you or Barton do or do not do. It might take awhile, centuries in some cases, and hastening the process as you’re attempting to do is good. But if, and I think when, Barton’s beliefs are allowed to remain unchallenged by Evangelicals, please don’t be too discouraged. It’s just the Culture War.

  28. Warren, that is kind of unfair.
    Warren =

    Also SGM, and others, let’s just drop this please. No need for rebuttals or counter points.

    StraightGrandmother= I am personally attacked, not my viewpoint, but personally, and you say I should just let it roll? Okay I have given my counter points, I am now okay to let it pass. And you have to agree Warren MOSTLY I do stay on topic.

  29. StraightGrandmother = One thing I will agree with you is I am overwrought
    Mick =

    Straight Grandmother, you do seem “overwhelmed” although I think a better word is “overwrought”

    StraightGrandmother = I AM overwrought at the murders of persons who areTransgender and really tender in my heart are the Bullycides of young people. What you wrote is true, I am overwrought. Nail me to a cross Mick.
    I was in Washington DC in 1968 just after Martin Luther King was murdered, for Resurrection City. I saw injustice then against black Americans and I see injustice today against sexual minorities. And I am not going to shut up and be quiet about it. If that makes me

    downright rude and pushy and presumptive

    Well Mick, I guess I can live with that, I am not going to shut up.

  30. mick – you are generally right in my view, I do try to make room for discussion for a variety of subjects and will find a way to get some transgender issues into a thread. This one however is not it.
    Also SGM, and others, let’s just drop this please. No need for rebuttals or counter points. If you have nothing to say about David Barton making a mint off of distortions about Thomas Jefferson or the other founders, then please take it elsewhere.

  31. Mick,
    Very nasty and uncalled for.

    As an example, you do this to Dr. Throckmorton a lot . You have chided him for your perception that he isn’t political, in your opinion.

    No I don’t! I don’t do this a lot that is your opinion but you have not read enough of my comments to come to this conclusion. In fact I have been here, oh maybe 3/4 of a year to a year, and ONE TIME I said I wish he would get more political with his insights. Your statement is a complete exaggeration of my time here. Obviously you have not been around here for any great length of time. And yet you feel perfectly comfortable to malign me. Why is that?
    Mick =

    He’s not an in your face person, like you.

    StraightGrandmother= I am in your face? I don’t think I am. What I am is blunt. I don’t use a $10 word when a 0.10 word will do. Several people who post here, you need a dictionary to decipher what they say. What I do is break it down to language that 6th graders can understand. That is not “in your face” that is clarification which no one should object to.
    You need to learn to object to my point of view and not attract me personally for my point of view. Personal attracts are infantile. Discussions on points of view are mature.

  32. I meant to include these remarks of yours too, Straight Grandmother,
    Warren is rather A-Politcal with this blog but many of us who stay and visit here are not. I would appreciate it if you would cut Zoe a little slack as there is not a good place on Warrens Blog to mark the memorial other than a current topic.
    There are good places to comment on the topic in question-search the archives and comment, or email Dr. Throckmorton and ask for such a thread or by starting a blog of your own. The latter offers you the ability to be as “political” as you want, anytime you want, in any way you want.

  33. Straight Grandmother commented,
    Yeah Dave you are right. TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance is not relevant to David Barton and Jefferson Lies. But you see sometimes Dave some of us are so emotionally overwhelmed about Discrimination against sexual minorities that we sometime go off topic, especially when it is topical, like TDOR, that only comes once a year.
    I’ve never posted before but I feel I should. Straight Grandmother, you do seem “overwhelmed” although I think a better word is “overwrought” since many of your posts are downright rude and pushy and presumptive about a lot of the posters who writer here.
    As an example, you do this to Dr. Throckmorton a lot . You have chided him for your perception that he isn’t political, in your opinion. I think if you look at his posts with any regularity, you can see that he has taken many unpopular positions in an attempt to be humane and scientifically accurate , but maybe it’s his style you actually are unhappy with. He’s not an in your face person, like you. He’s a scientist who runs a thoughtful blog that mixes social science with theology with political issues with hard science and that isn’t easy.
    Yeah Dave you are right. TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance is not relevant to David Barton and Jefferson Lies. But you see sometimes Dave some of us are so emotionally overwhelmed about Discrimination against sexual minorities that we sometime go off topic, especially when it is topical, like TDOR, that only comes once a year.
    Dr. T is very good about honoring requests to discuss new topics and he is usually very good about allowing ot stuff until it sometimes results in stupid arguments, but I’d ask you to show a bit more respect and if you are so unhappy with his lack of what you perceive as his apolitical stances, then may I respectfully suggest you start a blog of your own since you are so passionate. No reason you can’t do that.

  34. Warren, that is kind of unfair.
    Warren =

    Also SGM, and others, let’s just drop this please. No need for rebuttals or counter points.

    StraightGrandmother= I am personally attacked, not my viewpoint, but personally, and you say I should just let it roll? Okay I have given my counter points, I am now okay to let it pass. And you have to agree Warren MOSTLY I do stay on topic.

  35. mick – you are generally right in my view, I do try to make room for discussion for a variety of subjects and will find a way to get some transgender issues into a thread. This one however is not it.
    Also SGM, and others, let’s just drop this please. No need for rebuttals or counter points. If you have nothing to say about David Barton making a mint off of distortions about Thomas Jefferson or the other founders, then please take it elsewhere.

  36. Mick,
    Very nasty and uncalled for.

    As an example, you do this to Dr. Throckmorton a lot . You have chided him for your perception that he isn’t political, in your opinion.

    No I don’t! I don’t do this a lot that is your opinion but you have not read enough of my comments to come to this conclusion. In fact I have been here, oh maybe 3/4 of a year to a year, and ONE TIME I said I wish he would get more political with his insights. Your statement is a complete exaggeration of my time here. Obviously you have not been around here for any great length of time. And yet you feel perfectly comfortable to malign me. Why is that?
    Mick =

    He’s not an in your face person, like you.

    StraightGrandmother= I am in your face? I don’t think I am. What I am is blunt. I don’t use a $10 word when a 0.10 word will do. Several people who post here, you need a dictionary to decipher what they say. What I do is break it down to language that 6th graders can understand. That is not “in your face” that is clarification which no one should object to.
    You need to learn to object to my point of view and not attract me personally for my point of view. Personal attracts are infantile. Discussions on points of view are mature.

  37. I meant to include these remarks of yours too, Straight Grandmother,
    Warren is rather A-Politcal with this blog but many of us who stay and visit here are not. I would appreciate it if you would cut Zoe a little slack as there is not a good place on Warrens Blog to mark the memorial other than a current topic.
    There are good places to comment on the topic in question-search the archives and comment, or email Dr. Throckmorton and ask for such a thread or by starting a blog of your own. The latter offers you the ability to be as “political” as you want, anytime you want, in any way you want.

  38. Warren – could you start up another thread on this please? I have so much to tell you, and I’ve already de-railed this thread enough as it is.
    This is a fast-moving field; much of the evidence we have now post-dates 2008, but in general confirms what was thought long before… but I better leave it at that.
    I think we do need to talk about this. I certainly need to hear what you have to say, and why you think that way, anyway.
    But as you say, this thread is not the appropriate one, and neither I think is a thread 3 years old.

  39. Been away for a few days so am just now seeing this. The trans discussion is not appropriate here but maybe here: /2008/02/14/christianity-today-on-the-transgender-moment/
    I don’t have much time to devote to it but might chime in at some point. I generally think about the same thing as indicated in that post.

  40. Straight Grandmother commented,
    Yeah Dave you are right. TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance is not relevant to David Barton and Jefferson Lies. But you see sometimes Dave some of us are so emotionally overwhelmed about Discrimination against sexual minorities that we sometime go off topic, especially when it is topical, like TDOR, that only comes once a year.
    I’ve never posted before but I feel I should. Straight Grandmother, you do seem “overwhelmed” although I think a better word is “overwrought” since many of your posts are downright rude and pushy and presumptive about a lot of the posters who writer here.
    As an example, you do this to Dr. Throckmorton a lot . You have chided him for your perception that he isn’t political, in your opinion. I think if you look at his posts with any regularity, you can see that he has taken many unpopular positions in an attempt to be humane and scientifically accurate , but maybe it’s his style you actually are unhappy with. He’s not an in your face person, like you. He’s a scientist who runs a thoughtful blog that mixes social science with theology with political issues with hard science and that isn’t easy.
    Yeah Dave you are right. TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance is not relevant to David Barton and Jefferson Lies. But you see sometimes Dave some of us are so emotionally overwhelmed about Discrimination against sexual minorities that we sometime go off topic, especially when it is topical, like TDOR, that only comes once a year.
    Dr. T is very good about honoring requests to discuss new topics and he is usually very good about allowing ot stuff until it sometimes results in stupid arguments, but I’d ask you to show a bit more respect and if you are so unhappy with his lack of what you perceive as his apolitical stances, then may I respectfully suggest you start a blog of your own since you are so passionate. No reason you can’t do that.

  41. Dave = I am certainly trans-friendly. I just wish it had its own thread.
    StraightGrandmother= Yes me too Dave. I wish there was an open topic where we could post these types of comments (TDOR). In this way we could stay on topic as we would have a place to comment on other things on our mind besides just what is on Warren’s mind. It would be nice if we had a small room we could go to to chat

  42. Warren – could you start up another thread on this please? I have so much to tell you, and I’ve already de-railed this thread enough as it is.
    This is a fast-moving field; much of the evidence we have now post-dates 2008, but in general confirms what was thought long before… but I better leave it at that.
    I think we do need to talk about this. I certainly need to hear what you have to say, and why you think that way, anyway.
    But as you say, this thread is not the appropriate one, and neither I think is a thread 3 years old.

  43. Been away for a few days so am just now seeing this. The trans discussion is not appropriate here but maybe here: /2008/02/14/christianity-today-on-the-transgender-moment/
    I don’t have much time to devote to it but might chime in at some point. I generally think about the same thing as indicated in that post.

  44. Dave = I am certainly trans-friendly. I just wish it had its own thread.
    StraightGrandmother= Yes me too Dave. I wish there was an open topic where we could post these types of comments (TDOR). In this way we could stay on topic as we would have a place to comment on other things on our mind besides just what is on Warren’s mind. It would be nice if we had a small room we could go to to chat

  45. Hi Kyle .. I am not the good doctor so how he manages his blog is up to him. FYI: My short answer to your question re: ethics (though you did not ask me) is “Yes”
    Blessings,
    Dave

  46. I would be willing to move my discussion to another thread, were there one. I certainly don’t want to divert the conversation. I just did not know of any place to ask my question of Dr. Throckmorton.
    Kyle

  47. Well SG .. what is happening here is called hijacking a thread … taking someone else’s blog and using it for your own purposes. It’s usually considered rather rude to do.. but apparently the good doctor doesn’t mind. I am certainly trans-friendly. I just wish it had its own thread.
    Dave

  48. Hey Warren,
    I have a random question for you. Regarding transgender issues, do you believe it is ever morally permissible, from a Christian ethical point of view, for someone who genuinely has a fixed gender identity out of sync with their biological bodies to get a sex change? I realize that each case will have to be evaluated individually, but do you think transgender identities should ever be treated as a medical problem to be fixed via reassignment (like other medical issues), and thus within the bound of Christian ethics?

  49. Hi Kyle .. I am not the good doctor so how he manages his blog is up to him. FYI: My short answer to your question re: ethics (though you did not ask me) is “Yes”
    Blessings,
    Dave

  50. I would be willing to move my discussion to another thread, were there one. I certainly don’t want to divert the conversation. I just did not know of any place to ask my question of Dr. Throckmorton.
    Kyle

  51. Well SG .. what is happening here is called hijacking a thread … taking someone else’s blog and using it for your own purposes. It’s usually considered rather rude to do.. but apparently the good doctor doesn’t mind. I am certainly trans-friendly. I just wish it had its own thread.
    Dave

  52. Yeah Dave you are right. TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance is not relevant to David Barton and Jefferson Lies. But you see sometimes Dave some of us are so emotionally overwhelmed about Discrimination against sexual minorities that we sometime go off topic, especially when it is topical, like TDOR, that only comes once a year. Warren is rather A-Politcal with this blog but many of us who stay and visit here are not. I would appreciate it if you would cut Zoe a little slack as there is not a good place on Warrens Blog to mark the memorial other than a current topic.
    I hope you will agree that most of the time we do stay on topic. But sometimes we can’t. We need to vent sometimes Dave. There is a reason that “T” is the last letter in LGBT. They are our brothers and sisters and a minority within a minority. The least we can do is honor them on their Day of Remembrance, even if it is off topic.

  53. Hey Warren,
    I have a random question for you. Regarding transgender issues, do you believe it is ever morally permissible, from a Christian ethical point of view, for someone who genuinely has a fixed gender identity out of sync with their biological bodies to get a sex change? I realize that each case will have to be evaluated individually, but do you think transgender identities should ever be treated as a medical problem to be fixed via reassignment (like other medical issues), and thus within the bound of Christian ethics?

  54. Zoe,
    I suggest you find it before you keep claiming it .. else you sound like the far right .. which .. I am sure .. is not your intention..
    Note: I am not quite clear what this all has to do with the Jefferson Lies
    Dave

  55. 1.6 million to 2.8 million:
    The estimated number of homeless youth in the United States.
    20 to 40 percent:
    The portion of the homeless youth population who are gay or transgender, compared to only 5 to 10 percent of the overall youth population.
    320,000 to 400,000:
    A conservative estimate of the number of gay and transgender youth facing homelessness each year.
    14.4:
    The average age that lesbian and gay youth in New York become homeless.
    13.5:
    The average age that transgender youth in New York become homeless.
    58 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who have been sexually assaulted, compared to 33 percent of homeless heterosexual youth.
    44 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who reported being asked by someone on the street to exchange sex for money, food, drugs, shelter, or clothes, compared to 26 percent of straight homeless youth.
    13:
    The average age gay and lesbian youth now come out after self-identifying as gay or lesbian as young as ages 5 to 7.
    62 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who experience discrimination from their families, compared to 30 percent of their heterosexual peers.
    42 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who abuse alcohol, compared to 27 percent of heterosexual youth.
    62 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who attempt suicide, compared to 29 percent of their heterosexual homeless peers.
    8.4 times:
    How much more likely gay and transgender youth are to attempt suicide if they are rejected by their families in adolescence compared to if they are not rejected by their family.
    They are also 5.9 times as likely to have experienced depression, 3.4 times as likely to have used illicit drugs, and 3.4 times as likely to have had unprotected sex.
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/lgbtyouthhomelessness.pdf
    http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/HomelessYouth.pdf
    For Intersex people… it’s worse.
    Here’s one metric, in use by at least one Catholic Homeless Youth Shelter.
    First Class : Straight, cis-sexual. Gets to sleep in a bed, and can be open about their sexuality.
    Second Class : Gay, cis-sexual. Gets to sleep in a bed, but must be closeted.
    Third Class : Trans-sexual. Must sleep on the floor. Not permitted to use the usual shower facilities.
    Fourth Class : Intersexed. Expelled. There’s no room at the Inn.
    One story…….

    I was told when I arrived that I could only be there if I stayed with the girls, because I was legally female. I agreed because I had no other option, it was there or the street.
    They roomed me with a female who said she felt uncomfortable being in the same room as me… the shelter’s response was to pull me out of the room and insist that I sleep on the floor of the girls wing in front of the night staff.
    I was constantly harassed by others in the shelter as well as the staff themselves. I was discovered to be physically intersexed by another shelter recipient who walked into the individual shower section I was in with the intent to start a fight.
    When I was later told that even though I agreed to be there as a female that I could not use the female restrooms or showers, I was instructed to use a single person bathroom and shower on the first floor of the building. I was happy about that because I was obviously not comfortable using the multi-person restrooms and showers anyway.
    When the girl who discovered I was intersexed told the staff, they made me get a “physical” at the little medical place attached next door. When it was confirmed I was indeed intersexed, I was told I had to leave the shelter because they had no place for me.
    I was kicked out 2 days before my 16th birthday.

  56. The law stated that anyone providing such data to the FBI was committing a crime by revealing privileged information. It went beyond “not requiring” into prohibiting.
    Still haven’t found it, even though I blogged it at the time.

  57. 1.6 million to 2.8 million:
    The estimated number of homeless youth in the United States.
    20 to 40 percent:
    The portion of the homeless youth population who are gay or transgender, compared to only 5 to 10 percent of the overall youth population.
    320,000 to 400,000:
    A conservative estimate of the number of gay and transgender youth facing homelessness each year.
    14.4:
    The average age that lesbian and gay youth in New York become homeless.
    13.5:
    The average age that transgender youth in New York become homeless.
    58 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who have been sexually assaulted, compared to 33 percent of homeless heterosexual youth.
    44 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who reported being asked by someone on the street to exchange sex for money, food, drugs, shelter, or clothes, compared to 26 percent of straight homeless youth.
    13:
    The average age gay and lesbian youth now come out after self-identifying as gay or lesbian as young as ages 5 to 7.
    62 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who experience discrimination from their families, compared to 30 percent of their heterosexual peers.
    42 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who abuse alcohol, compared to 27 percent of heterosexual youth.
    62 percent:
    The portion of homeless gay and transgender youth who attempt suicide, compared to 29 percent of their heterosexual homeless peers.
    8.4 times:
    How much more likely gay and transgender youth are to attempt suicide if they are rejected by their families in adolescence compared to if they are not rejected by their family.
    They are also 5.9 times as likely to have experienced depression, 3.4 times as likely to have used illicit drugs, and 3.4 times as likely to have had unprotected sex.
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/06/pdf/lgbtyouthhomelessness.pdf
    http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/HomelessYouth.pdf
    For Intersex people… it’s worse.
    Here’s one metric, in use by at least one Catholic Homeless Youth Shelter.
    First Class : Straight, cis-sexual. Gets to sleep in a bed, and can be open about their sexuality.
    Second Class : Gay, cis-sexual. Gets to sleep in a bed, but must be closeted.
    Third Class : Trans-sexual. Must sleep on the floor. Not permitted to use the usual shower facilities.
    Fourth Class : Intersexed. Expelled. There’s no room at the Inn.
    One story…….

    I was told when I arrived that I could only be there if I stayed with the girls, because I was legally female. I agreed because I had no other option, it was there or the street.
    They roomed me with a female who said she felt uncomfortable being in the same room as me… the shelter’s response was to pull me out of the room and insist that I sleep on the floor of the girls wing in front of the night staff.
    I was constantly harassed by others in the shelter as well as the staff themselves. I was discovered to be physically intersexed by another shelter recipient who walked into the individual shower section I was in with the intent to start a fight.
    When I was later told that even though I agreed to be there as a female that I could not use the female restrooms or showers, I was instructed to use a single person bathroom and shower on the first floor of the building. I was happy about that because I was obviously not comfortable using the multi-person restrooms and showers anyway.
    When the girl who discovered I was intersexed told the staff, they made me get a “physical” at the little medical place attached next door. When it was confirmed I was indeed intersexed, I was told I had to leave the shelter because they had no place for me.
    I was kicked out 2 days before my 16th birthday.

  58. The law stated that anyone providing such data to the FBI was committing a crime by revealing privileged information. It went beyond “not requiring” into prohibiting.
    Still haven’t found it, even though I blogged it at the time.

  59. Zoe Brain# ~ Nov 18, 2011 at 7:38 pm
    “ken# – as a reaction to the Federal “Hate Crime” laws, one jurisdiction made it illegal for police to co-operate with Federal authorities in the investigation of hate crimes against GLBTs while the case was open, and mandated destruction of the casefile when the case was closed, to prevent Federal prosecution .”
    I’m still interested in seeing the actual statute/ordinance you are referring to. However, here is what you initially said about this:
    “I forget which state it is that makes reporting of any details about the deaths of Trans people to the FBI actually illegal. ”
    however, here is another phrasing:
    “A state has passed a law saying that the state will not to cooperate with the gathering of hate crimes statistics by the FBI, and that the police are not required to provide or catalog such statistics”
    Which of these statements do you think is a more accurate representation of what the law actually says Zoe?

  60. Zoe Brain# ~ Nov 18, 2011 at 7:38 pm
    “ken# – as a reaction to the Federal “Hate Crime” laws, one jurisdiction made it illegal for police to co-operate with Federal authorities in the investigation of hate crimes against GLBTs while the case was open, and mandated destruction of the casefile when the case was closed, to prevent Federal prosecution .”
    I’m still interested in seeing the actual statute/ordinance you are referring to. However, here is what you initially said about this:
    “I forget which state it is that makes reporting of any details about the deaths of Trans people to the FBI actually illegal. ”
    however, here is another phrasing:
    “A state has passed a law saying that the state will not to cooperate with the gathering of hate crimes statistics by the FBI, and that the police are not required to provide or catalog such statistics”
    Which of these statements do you think is a more accurate representation of what the law actually says Zoe?

  61. 61% of survivors experienced indifferent, abusive or deterrent police attitudes: Within known reports of police attitudes, survivors reported 38.4% of police attitudes as indifferent, 17.1% as abusive (including verbal and physical abuse), and 5% as deterrent. 39.5% of survivors experienced courteous police attitudes. Transgender people of color reported higher rates of indifferent police attitudes. 48.3% of transgender people of color reported that police attitudes were indifferent, compared to 38% for overall survivors. Only 7.7% of non-transgender and white survivors experienced indifferent attitudes. Police arrested offenders in 22% of incidents. For survivors who reported to the police, officers filed complaints without making arrests for 53% of the incidents, officers arrested suspected offenders for 22% of incidents, officers refused complaints for 17% of incidents, and officers arrested the survivor for 8% of incidents.

    http://www.avp.org/documents/NCAVPHateViolenceReport2011Finaledjlfinaledits.pdf
    But we’re getting off-track.

  62. ken# – as a reaction to the Federal “Hate Crime” laws, one jurisdiction made it illegal for police to co-operate with Federal authorities in the investigation of hate crimes against GLBTs while the case was open, and mandated destruction of the casefile when the case was closed, to prevent Federal prosecution .
    I’m Googling to find the details now.

    These participation figures may not be as positive as they appear. the FBI program allows agencies to submit 0 as their total count of hate crimes. According to the most recent FBI report nearly 85 percent of participating agencies report no hate crimes occurring in their jurisdiction during the previous 12 months. While reporting zero hate crimes may accurately reflect the number of hate crimes in many jurisdictions, scholars suggest that some agencies, particularly in larger, more diverse communities, are not fully and accurately collecting information on and reporting hate crimes (McDevitt et al., 2003). In 2004, for example, three states reported fewer than five hate crimes: Mississippi (2), Wyoming (2) and Alabama (3). Similarly, a number of major cities reported surprisingly low numbers of hate offenses, such as Detroit, MI (0), Indianapolis, IN (0), Milwaukee, WI (2), Nashville, TN (5), New Orleans, LA (6), and Houston, TX (14) (FBI, 2005a).

    — jacklevinonviolence.com/articles/HateCrimesencyc92206FINAL.pdf
    25% of jurisdictions still don’t report at all.

  63. 61% of survivors experienced indifferent, abusive or deterrent police attitudes: Within known reports of police attitudes, survivors reported 38.4% of police attitudes as indifferent, 17.1% as abusive (including verbal and physical abuse), and 5% as deterrent. 39.5% of survivors experienced courteous police attitudes. Transgender people of color reported higher rates of indifferent police attitudes. 48.3% of transgender people of color reported that police attitudes were indifferent, compared to 38% for overall survivors. Only 7.7% of non-transgender and white survivors experienced indifferent attitudes. Police arrested offenders in 22% of incidents. For survivors who reported to the police, officers filed complaints without making arrests for 53% of the incidents, officers arrested suspected offenders for 22% of incidents, officers refused complaints for 17% of incidents, and officers arrested the survivor for 8% of incidents.

    http://www.avp.org/documents/NCAVPHateViolenceReport2011Finaledjlfinaledits.pdf
    But we’re getting off-track.

  64. ken# – as a reaction to the Federal “Hate Crime” laws, one jurisdiction made it illegal for police to co-operate with Federal authorities in the investigation of hate crimes against GLBTs while the case was open, and mandated destruction of the casefile when the case was closed, to prevent Federal prosecution .
    I’m Googling to find the details now.

    These participation figures may not be as positive as they appear. the FBI program allows agencies to submit 0 as their total count of hate crimes. According to the most recent FBI report nearly 85 percent of participating agencies report no hate crimes occurring in their jurisdiction during the previous 12 months. While reporting zero hate crimes may accurately reflect the number of hate crimes in many jurisdictions, scholars suggest that some agencies, particularly in larger, more diverse communities, are not fully and accurately collecting information on and reporting hate crimes (McDevitt et al., 2003). In 2004, for example, three states reported fewer than five hate crimes: Mississippi (2), Wyoming (2) and Alabama (3). Similarly, a number of major cities reported surprisingly low numbers of hate offenses, such as Detroit, MI (0), Indianapolis, IN (0), Milwaukee, WI (2), Nashville, TN (5), New Orleans, LA (6), and Houston, TX (14) (FBI, 2005a).

    — jacklevinonviolence.com/articles/HateCrimesencyc92206FINAL.pdf
    25% of jurisdictions still don’t report at all.

  65. Yes Zoe, I have been to that terrible website
    http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html
    I also left a comment on the YouTube video.
    It is awful, full of lies and hate. I was directed to it via a comment on a “Christian” website.
    Zoe I mourn every single Trans persons murder. I had been following the Detroit story. The poor girl. I know Zoe, I know what is going on. I hope to hell it gets better, SOON! I don’t understand the hatred, I really don’t.
    I’ll offer you these 2 videos Zoe. These videos were made in Iowa in the State House during hearings to change the Constitution to deny Marriage to sexual minorities. Both videos are of young men, only a year apart in age. Hear their testimony.
    http://youtu.be/FSQQK2Vuf9Q
    http://youtu.be/oBGJHrnziTc

  66. Zoe Brain# ~ Nov 17, 2011 at 11:55 pm
    “I forget which state it is that makes reporting of any details about the deaths of Trans people to the FBI actually illegal. Because of “Christian Family Values””
    I suspect because there isn’t one. Such a law would be unconstitutional. I get that this is an important issue for you Zoe, but this kind of hyperbole doesn’t help your cause.

  67. Yes Zoe, I have been to that terrible website
    http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html
    I also left a comment on the YouTube video.
    It is awful, full of lies and hate. I was directed to it via a comment on a “Christian” website.
    Zoe I mourn every single Trans persons murder. I had been following the Detroit story. The poor girl. I know Zoe, I know what is going on. I hope to hell it gets better, SOON! I don’t understand the hatred, I really don’t.
    I’ll offer you these 2 videos Zoe. These videos were made in Iowa in the State House during hearings to change the Constitution to deny Marriage to sexual minorities. Both videos are of young men, only a year apart in age. Hear their testimony.
    http://youtu.be/FSQQK2Vuf9Q
    http://youtu.be/oBGJHrnziTc

  68. Zoe Brain# ~ Nov 17, 2011 at 11:55 pm
    “I forget which state it is that makes reporting of any details about the deaths of Trans people to the FBI actually illegal. Because of “Christian Family Values””
    I suspect because there isn’t one. Such a law would be unconstitutional. I get that this is an important issue for you Zoe, but this kind of hyperbole doesn’t help your cause.

  69. On both sides, mind you. There’s few who can resist the siren lure of gilding the lilly when confronted with breathtaking mendacity.
    In the past, you’ve shown in detail some places where the “other side” has been guilty of that. Never resile from what you said then, those on “my side” need fact-checking, peer-review, to make sure we don’t become like those opposing us.
    If we’re so very correct in what we say, our views should be able to withstand any honest critique. And if they can’t, we should change them, no matter from which source the critique comes from.
    Warren, today, 20th November, is the TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we remember our dead – for no-one else does.
    http://trans.egale.ca/2011/11/transgender-europe%E2%80%99s-trans-murder-monitoring-project-reveals-221-killings-of-trans-people-in-the-last-12-months/
    I forget which state it is that makes reporting of any details about the deaths of Trans people to the FBI actually illegal. Because of “Christian Family Values”. It doesn’t matter, despite the Federal Hate Crimes law being extended to Trans people, the number of such deaths last year according to the FBI is … zero. They’re still not being recorded, even when state authorities report them.
    We don’t know if the latest Trans murder victim was killed as part of a hate crime or not – we’d need to recover more of her body parts, and may never know, some are likely to be too badly burnt. We know some were removed while she was still alive, that’s all.
    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011111108011
    You can see how that might affect one’s objectivity, if one isn’t careful.

  70. Warren:

    Perhaps, historians, including those that teach at other Christian institutions, will rise up en masse in response. I can imagine that we will see scathing book reviews in various religious publications which might wake up some Christians.

    I doubt it.
    Only the Fanatics “rise up” and write “scathing reviews”. You’ll see calm, fact-filled refutations from some scholars who care about such things as historical facts, but far more emotional rants from “activists” in support from True Believers fighting the Culture Wars.
    You know why it’s called the Culture Wars? Because as with all war, Truth is the first casualty.

  71. On both sides, mind you. There’s few who can resist the siren lure of gilding the lilly when confronted with breathtaking mendacity.
    In the past, you’ve shown in detail some places where the “other side” has been guilty of that. Never resile from what you said then, those on “my side” need fact-checking, peer-review, to make sure we don’t become like those opposing us.
    If we’re so very correct in what we say, our views should be able to withstand any honest critique. And if they can’t, we should change them, no matter from which source the critique comes from.
    Warren, today, 20th November, is the TDOR – the Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we remember our dead – for no-one else does.
    http://trans.egale.ca/2011/11/transgender-europe%E2%80%99s-trans-murder-monitoring-project-reveals-221-killings-of-trans-people-in-the-last-12-months/
    I forget which state it is that makes reporting of any details about the deaths of Trans people to the FBI actually illegal. Because of “Christian Family Values”. It doesn’t matter, despite the Federal Hate Crimes law being extended to Trans people, the number of such deaths last year according to the FBI is … zero. They’re still not being recorded, even when state authorities report them.
    We don’t know if the latest Trans murder victim was killed as part of a hate crime or not – we’d need to recover more of her body parts, and may never know, some are likely to be too badly burnt. We know some were removed while she was still alive, that’s all.
    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011111108011
    You can see how that might affect one’s objectivity, if one isn’t careful.

  72. Warren:

    Perhaps, historians, including those that teach at other Christian institutions, will rise up en masse in response. I can imagine that we will see scathing book reviews in various religious publications which might wake up some Christians.

    I doubt it.
    Only the Fanatics “rise up” and write “scathing reviews”. You’ll see calm, fact-filled refutations from some scholars who care about such things as historical facts, but far more emotional rants from “activists” in support from True Believers fighting the Culture Wars.
    You know why it’s called the Culture Wars? Because as with all war, Truth is the first casualty.

  73. Warren,
    As the quote above clearly states, separation doctrine pertains to everyone because separation doctrine is derived from Natural Law, which applies to everyone. TJ also allows any State to establish any religion it wants which he has “ever believed.’

  74. oft – The Kaskaskia Indians were not a state. There is no separation issue when the federal govt. deals with another sovereign entity.
    What did Jefferson champion regarding religion in his own state of VA?

  75. Why is anyone bothering with “oft”? The individual is clearly a copy and paste artist – not caring at all about the diversity and depth of the founding fathers (let alone anyone else). These are complex arguments and “oft” has no capability to argue either pro or con to those issues.
    To “oft” – one cannot judge a single individual based on a single action or quote over decades of life. Especially out of context of the time. Get a life.

  76. oft# ~ Nov 16, 2011 at 5:03 pm
    “You need to prove what I said was incorrect with the framers’ own writings.”
    No, YOU need to prove they are correct. You made the statements.
    “Above is a clear violation of modern separation doctrine, ”
    I don’t believe it is as clear as you claim. this was part of a treaty with another nation, not a government program within US borders. It is likely the Kaskaskia tribe wanted this and the treaty was simply stipulating how the money was to be spent rather than just a lump some that could be spent on anything they wanted.

  77. Our friend Bryan Fischer made the Winter 2011 edition of the magazine Intelligents Reports published by the Southern Poverty Law Center

    Nor has it prevented him from suggesting that gay sex should be penalized in the same way heroin use is, or asserting that gay men and lesbians should be forced into controversial “reparative therapy,” which improbably claims to “cure” people of their homosexuality. Since joining the AFA, Fischer has said, against all the evidence, that “homosexuals, as a group, are the single greatest perpetrators of hate crimes on the planet, outside the Muslim religion.” He has claimed that non-Christian religions “have no First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion,” which would have been a surprise to the authors of the Bill of Rights. He said that the “sexual immorality of Native Americans” was part of what made them “morally disqualified from sovereign control of American soil.” He even suggested the best way to deal with promiscuity would be to kill the promiscuous.

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2011/winter/the-story-behind-afas-bryan-fischer

  78. Article 3 Kaskaskia Treaty
    “the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church.”
    Above is a clear violation of modern separation doctrine, and along with my previous quote, TJ contadicts it, and he believed a State could form whatever religion they wanted:
    “I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority..Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands..But I have ever believed, that..what might be a right in a State government, was a violation of that right when assumed by another.”
    –to Rev. Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808
    Ultimately, TJ is violating the Indian’s rights even if the tribe was all catholic, which they weren’t. Your rebuttal that the tribes are a sovereign nation does not refute the plain language in the Article, given TJ founded his justification on Natural Rights–that applied to everyone.

  79. Today’s tweet from Bryan Fischer, senior policy analyst at the $20 million/year Christian organization, the American Family Association:
    “Time to declare victory in the war on poverty, shut down welfare. 80% of “poor” have AC, 75% own cars, 2/3 have cable.”
    Warren, how long are you going to attach yourself to this corrupted religio-ideology? You are too good and too decent a man for this.

    1. David – Thanks for the kind words. My view is that there are bad actors among all ideologies and Fischer seems to excel at proving that point. .

  80. I looked at the links. I’m not referring to any of the links you provided. I am not an ecumenist like Barton. You need to prove what I said was incorrect with the framers’ own writings.

  81. oft – You apparently have an honorary degree from the David Barton school of History. You are wrong on each of your points as is clear from a review of the links I supplied in the post.

  82. Despite Barton’s errors, it doesn’t change the fact none of the framers were ecumenists, that modern separation of church and state is beyond bogus, and that Thomas Jefferson gave OUR tax-payer money to establish Christian Churches to people protected by his Natural Rights philosophy–most of the Indian tribes he gave money to weren’t all catholic, proving TJ believed the First Amendment referred only to an establishment of a Christian Denomination:
    “What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals.”
    –TJ TO JM, 6 Sept. 1789

  83. Barton like so many other frauds and religious right nuts I am sure will have many of his crazed devotees buying up his book and digesting every word of it with gusto. The Right loves to hate in the name of God. I am sure some GOP or right wing publisher (H.Regnery??) will distribute many free copies of Bartons compendium of lies.

  84. I looked at the links. I’m not referring to any of the links you provided. I am not an ecumenist like Barton. You need to prove what I said was incorrect with the framers’ own writings.

  85. Enlighten me.

    Warren said:

    You are wrong on each of your points as is clear from a review of the links I supplied in the post.

    Enlighten thyself.

  86. Barton like so many other frauds and religious right nuts I am sure will have many of his crazed devotees buying up his book and digesting every word of it with gusto. The Right loves to hate in the name of God. I am sure some GOP or right wing publisher (H.Regnery??) will distribute many free copies of Bartons compendium of lies.

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