In 2010, the Jewish ex-gay group Jonah began recommending the human potential group Celebration of Being to constituents as a step on the ex-gay journey. At the time, I wondered if CoB would become a “new way to ex-gay.” Now People Can Change and Mormon ex-gay group Evergreen International are joining in.
A notice from Evergreen offers:
Breakthrough Healing with Women: The Noble Man Workshop
Celebration of the Noble Man: Healing Men’s Wounds With Women. An intensive experience for men from all walks of life who are ready to heal their issues with women. For more information, see http://celebrationofbeing.com/noble_man.html
Celebration of Nobleman is one of CoB’s weekend retreats, and focuses on men gathering with female leaders to “heal old wounds with the women in your life.” For about $800 you can discover your manhood with the empowering help of women. CoB is collaborating with People Can Change for these workshops.
Read the earlier post for more about this group. Suffice to say that this is a pan-spiritual approach to finding your inner, hidden potential for masculinity while in the presence of women. While the pictures on the website indicate that hugging and physical affirmation are a part of these workshops, I don’t know if womean substitute for men in holding therapy common at People Can Change workshops. In a 2010 conversation, I asked one of the CoB leaders about such techniques but she declined to say what they do on the weekends.
CoB says they are open to men of all sexual orientations:
Celebration of Being welcomes all men seeking healing with the feminine regardless of sexual orientation or partner gender preference. Our policy is to be completely inclusive and respectful of everyone’s choice.
Lots of irony here. CoB partners with groups not offering this same kind of inclusivity. And then those groups are sending men to an experience which claims to be just fine with gay affirmation, even as the men attending are trying to change something that research demonstrates is infrequently changed.
CoB is supposed to be about acceptance of self, whereas People Can Change is about change. The ex-gay groups seem to be so sure that attraction to the same sex is about mother and father wounds that they recommend groups which claim to heal these in hopes that such healing will reduce the gay.
Often ex-gay groups claim that they only want to help people live in accord with their religious beliefs. This is what People Can Change’s Rich Wyler told NPR recently. However, recommendations to groups like CoB (and the Mankind Project) in order to change orientation seem to contradict this claim. If anything, CoB is more aligned with Buddhist and Sufi teachings. Very little that is going on in these workshops is in congruence with religious teachings of a particular faith. The aim is change, not acceptance and congruence.
My purpose is not criticize other religions. My observation is that change groups put change above congruence, while articulating a congruence message. Whether it be the Exodus ministry that articulates acceptance and faith congruence while promoting reparative therapy materials, or the topic of today’s post, it seems that the rhetoric of congruence is more common than its application.
@Jere my Schwab, I’m confused. Which is it? This-
Or this-
Ok, I do want to clarify.
I’m NOT trying to say that Exodus and Courage are “not helpful” in reducing SSA.
MOST of what they both teach is aligned with what I have found helpful.
I AM very grateful for their work and their ministries even though I disagree with both of them on some things.
The areas I disagree with them on are the one’s Warren documents in this article (congruence of faith vs. change therapy). I take the exact Opposite view of Warren, Exodus, and many of my friends in Courage.
I value congruence of faith very highly, but I feel I can take care of that for myself. The greatest risk for me is not that I MIGHT over-hear someone’s strange theological views. I can turn a TV and hear that. It is also not that I MIGHT be tempted to have SSA thoughts or to act-out. I spent 12 years in the lifestyle. For me, the biggest risk (two-years ago) was NOT changing and not being able to stop the acting-out which had controlled and ruined my life for 12 years.
I really don’t feel like there is THAT much in-congruence. These experiential weekends are NOT religious retreats. They do NOT teach any theological content so it really doesn’t matter if they have people from different religious involved.
The company I work for hires people of different religions. Even though our CEO is a Christian, there is not a definitely requirement to be a Christian to work at our (Fortune 500) corporation. Should I quit my job?
Jeremy Schwab, what do yo think would happen to you, or perhaps I should say, what would you be like if you never attended any group meetings regarding SSA, ever again? If it works so well why do you keep going? Thank you.
Maybe in theory, but, in practice, it seems to me that psychologists and religious counselors focus only on one approach, changing one’s sexual behaviour according to one’s religion.
Nobody seems to offer counselling to change one’s religion or faith according to one’s sexual orientation. Why is that? Is it unethical? Shouldn’t psychologists give primacy to the client’s nature rather than to society’s norms? It seems that religion always has primacy.
You are right in your observation that Exodus uses the “rhetoric of congruence.” Earlier this year, they claimed that congruence is their “mission, period” — but as you pointed out, their promotion of reparative therapy materials seems to indicate otherwise.
I agree.
F Young# ~ Sep 10, 2011 at 11:25 am
“Nobody seems to offer counselling to change one’s religion or faith according to one’s sexual orientation. Why is that? Is it unethical? Shouldn’t psychologists give primacy to the client’s nature rather than to society’s norms? It seems that religion always has primacy.”
For a counselor to attempt to change a persons religion would be unethical in the sense that they are not trained in religion, but in psychology/counseling.
Thank you Dave, I really appreciate it when you write, “In other words” and then go on to explain again but in slightly more basic way.
LOL to William, that too what you said 🙂
I saw a ManKind Project booth at a Pride event a few years ago. When I asked them if they knew the organization was being exploited for ex-gay nonsense, they were surprised. Both men at the booth were openly gay.
I think that despite the outward change in what they say, these groups still hold the same miguided notions about sexual orientation. That gays are broken, mentally ill, sinners.
And I often get the impression when I see the phrase”to help people live in accord with their religious beliefs.” The “their” refers a little too much to the ministers/group leaders and not enough the gay men who come to them.
I doubt any of these groups (Jonah, Exodus, etc) has ever been involved in any gay couples counseling. Even if the gay couple believes that a monogamous, same-sex relationship is in accord with the couples religious beliefs.
I just finished the “Noble Man” weekend a few hours ago in Pennsylvania.
It was AMAZING!!!!!!
I highly highly recommend it for any man, but especially for men who are overcoming SSA.
I think the “Journey into Manhood” and New Warrior Training Adventure (Mankind Project) weekends were really important for preparing me to get the most out of this weekend.
I felt completely confident in my own masculinity and manhood while be able to interact authentically with these amazing women. I’m in the process of writing out my thoughts in more detail for my local Exodus and Courage groups, but I’ll come back and post it here when I’m done.
I hope you’ll check it out Warren 🙂
I just finished the “Noble Man” weekend a few hours ago in Pennsylvania.
It was AMAZING!!!!!!
I highly highly recommend it for any man, but especially for men who are overcoming SSA.
I think the “Journey into Manhood” and New Warrior Training Adventure (Mankind Project) weekends were really important for preparing me to get the most out of this weekend.
I felt completely confident in my own masculinity and manhood while be able to interact authentically with these amazing women. I’m in the process of writing out my thoughts in more detail for my local Exodus and Courage groups, but I’ll come back and post it here when I’m done.
I hope you’ll check it out Warren 🙂
My story is a little reversed from others in that I started out seeking “change” at a time when I was basically an agnostic. Seeing real results in the reduction and elimination of my SSA (same-sex attraction) actually restored my Faith in God. Now, I regret that I ever doubted him in the first place.
I spent some time in “gay churches” in the past, but never found them very convincing. The only thing they could argue was that the scriptural references to homosexuality weren’t “really” about homosexuality. Even IF they are right, that doesn’t help me much. That doesn’t didn’t prove that homosexual relationships are part of God’s plan. The argument seems to rest on the idea that God didn’t love us enough to have a detailed plan. That’s depressing!
I realize that different churches have varying views on the morality of homosexuality. There MAY be several ways of interpreting the Hebrew in Leviticus or the Greek words in Romans. I don’t really know. In the past I used to get bogged down in that and I had a lot uncertainty and doubt.
My decision to leave homosexuality behind wasn’t really about any specific religious issue though. I remember hearing once that “sin is a failure to love.” At first I thought that was a watered down perspective, but I think it might be accurate.
1 Corinthians 13 is from my Christian faith, but I know there are very similar texts in other faiths:
Over this past several years I’ve realized that I ONLY feel homosexual feelings (romantic or physical) when I feel inadequate in my own sense of self or masculinity and/or when I perceive that another guy has the qualities (personality or physical) that I feel that I lack.
It is impossible for me to be attracted to another male or female person (romantically or physically) without first seeing them as an Opposite of myself. Since I am undeniably a Man (biologically and psychologically), attraction to another Man first requires a lot of insecurity about myself as well as a lot of false hopes and illusions about what the connection with the other Man will somehow provide.
From my own experience I can see that ALL of my previous homosexual relationships (or encounters) started with me first feeling hopeless, jealous, envious, and distrusting, and then impatiently (and desperately) self-seeking my own end to the detriment of the other Man. This was usually followed by a false pride/boasting to cover up the emptiness that followed. The exact opposite of 1 Corinthians 13.
Regardless of how anyone spins Leviticus or Romans, THAT is sin. It is NOT Love. It is the exact opposite of Love in ever way shape or form. I can only speak for myself and I have no room to judge or condemn anyone else, but I know with certainty I cannot Love someone and pursue a homosexual relationship with them at the same time. For me, those are mutually exclusive things.
I had strong feelings for my ex-partner Tim, but those were barriers to Love. They were not Love in and of themselves because they were not oriented toward his best good. They were geared toward filling voids in myself that no other human being can meet in the first place.
Over the past year, I’ve been drawing more and more closer to God and he has been increasing my capacity to give and receive real Love. The more real Love I have in my life the less and less I feel defined by homosexuality, the “gay” label, or even the “ex-gay” label.
I don’t see any evidence that homosexuality is an “orientation” on its own. Looking at my own body and others, I can see that it was just a distortion of it. Regardless, I don’t see any reason to define myself by it anymore. Even if the remnants of it were to remain till I die, it still wouldn’t be worth forming a separate identity or label out of it.
I don’t see the purpose of my journey to be about “becoming straight” (although that seems to be happening anyway). It’s about becoming my authentic self and growing in relationship to God. I’ve found myself becoming more integrated and more in tune with my own core emotions and this has enabled me to be much more open and authentic with everyone. There are probably more people now who know about my past homosexual struggles than knew about it when I was in the lifestyle.
My story is a little reversed from others in that I started out seeking “change” at a time when I was basically an agnostic. Seeing real results in the reduction and elimination of my SSA (same-sex attraction) actually restored my Faith in God. Now, I regret that I ever doubted him in the first place.
I spent some time in “gay churches” in the past, but never found them very convincing. The only thing they could argue was that the scriptural references to homosexuality weren’t “really” about homosexuality. Even IF they are right, that doesn’t help me much. That doesn’t didn’t prove that homosexual relationships are part of God’s plan. The argument seems to rest on the idea that God didn’t love us enough to have a detailed plan. That’s depressing!
I realize that different churches have varying views on the morality of homosexuality. There MAY be several ways of interpreting the Hebrew in Leviticus or the Greek words in Romans. I don’t really know. In the past I used to get bogged down in that and I had a lot uncertainty and doubt.
My decision to leave homosexuality behind wasn’t really about any specific religious issue though. I remember hearing once that “sin is a failure to love.” At first I thought that was a watered down perspective, but I think it might be accurate.
1 Corinthians 13 is from my Christian faith, but I know there are very similar texts in other faiths:
Over this past several years I’ve realized that I ONLY feel homosexual feelings (romantic or physical) when I feel inadequate in my own sense of self or masculinity and/or when I perceive that another guy has the qualities (personality or physical) that I feel that I lack.
It is impossible for me to be attracted to another male or female person (romantically or physically) without first seeing them as an Opposite of myself. Since I am undeniably a Man (biologically and psychologically), attraction to another Man first requires a lot of insecurity about myself as well as a lot of false hopes and illusions about what the connection with the other Man will somehow provide.
From my own experience I can see that ALL of my previous homosexual relationships (or encounters) started with me first feeling hopeless, jealous, envious, and distrusting, and then impatiently (and desperately) self-seeking my own end to the detriment of the other Man. This was usually followed by a false pride/boasting to cover up the emptiness that followed. The exact opposite of 1 Corinthians 13.
Regardless of how anyone spins Leviticus or Romans, THAT is sin. It is NOT Love. It is the exact opposite of Love in ever way shape or form. I can only speak for myself and I have no room to judge or condemn anyone else, but I know with certainty I cannot Love someone and pursue a homosexual relationship with them at the same time. For me, those are mutually exclusive things.
I had strong feelings for my ex-partner Tim, but those were barriers to Love. They were not Love in and of themselves because they were not oriented toward his best good. They were geared toward filling voids in myself that no other human being can meet in the first place.
Over the past year, I’ve been drawing more and more closer to God and he has been increasing my capacity to give and receive real Love. The more real Love I have in my life the less and less I feel defined by homosexuality, the “gay” label, or even the “ex-gay” label.
I don’t see any evidence that homosexuality is an “orientation” on its own. Looking at my own body and others, I can see that it was just a distortion of it. Regardless, I don’t see any reason to define myself by it anymore. Even if the remnants of it were to remain till I die, it still wouldn’t be worth forming a separate identity or label out of it.
I don’t see the purpose of my journey to be about “becoming straight” (although that seems to be happening anyway). It’s about becoming my authentic self and growing in relationship to God. I’ve found myself becoming more integrated and more in tune with my own core emotions and this has enabled me to be much more open and authentic with everyone. There are probably more people now who know about my past homosexual struggles than knew about it when I was in the lifestyle.
Thanks Jayhuck,
I didn’t realize it would link through on here. The site probably needs a few updates.
Dr. Nicolosi saved my life. I would say that even if my SSA hadn’t been reduced as much as it has. I’m really glad I found him.
Thanks Jayhuck,
I didn’t realize it would link through on here. The site probably needs a few updates.
Dr. Nicolosi saved my life. I would say that even if my SSA hadn’t been reduced as much as it has. I’m really glad I found him.
Why don’t you want to be gay Jeremy? Is it strictly because of your religion?
You have an interesting web site Jeremy 😉
Jeremy,
I sure hope you find what you’re looking for, but know that there are many ex-ex gays who were receiving therapy from Dr Nicolosi who no longer feel he helped them at all. You should probably understand too that Dr Nicolosi heads an organization that spreads lies and misinformation about gay people.
Jeremy,
You have repeatedly used the term “the gay lifestyle.” Can you describe what you mean by that? and do you believe that all gay men live this way?
Why don’t you want to be gay Jeremy? Is it strictly because of your religion?
You have an interesting web site Jeremy 😉
Jeremy,
I sure hope you find what you’re looking for, but know that there are many ex-ex gays who were receiving therapy from Dr Nicolosi who no longer feel he helped them at all. You should probably understand too that Dr Nicolosi heads an organization that spreads lies and misinformation about gay people.
Straightgrandmother,
I understand your confusion.
I lived the gay lifestyle for 12 years (1997-2009), but only tried to embrace that identity for the last 2 years of that (2007-2009). From 1997- 2007, I was living the gay lifestyle, but hoping to change to stop. I didn’t know HOW though and the religious programs didn’t seem to help me.
In 2007, I gave up and spent two years trying to believe that it was “Ok.” I even went to Cathedral of Hope (a “gay church”) here in Dallas. I finally got on the right path in July 2009 when I called Dr. Nicolosi.
Jeremy,
You have repeatedly used the term “the gay lifestyle.” Can you describe what you mean by that? and do you believe that all gay men live this way?
Straightgrandmother,
I understand your confusion.
I lived the gay lifestyle for 12 years (1997-2009), but only tried to embrace that identity for the last 2 years of that (2007-2009). From 1997- 2007, I was living the gay lifestyle, but hoping to change to stop. I didn’t know HOW though and the religious programs didn’t seem to help me.
In 2007, I gave up and spent two years trying to believe that it was “Ok.” I even went to Cathedral of Hope (a “gay church”) here in Dallas. I finally got on the right path in July 2009 when I called Dr. Nicolosi.
@Jere my Schwab, I’m confused. Which is it? This-
Or this-
Ok, I do want to clarify.
I’m NOT trying to say that Exodus and Courage are “not helpful” in reducing SSA.
MOST of what they both teach is aligned with what I have found helpful.
I AM very grateful for their work and their ministries even though I disagree with both of them on some things.
The areas I disagree with them on are the one’s Warren documents in this article (congruence of faith vs. change therapy). I take the exact Opposite view of Warren, Exodus, and many of my friends in Courage.
I value congruence of faith very highly, but I feel I can take care of that for myself. The greatest risk for me is not that I MIGHT over-hear someone’s strange theological views. I can turn a TV and hear that. It is also not that I MIGHT be tempted to have SSA thoughts or to act-out. I spent 12 years in the lifestyle. For me, the biggest risk (two-years ago) was NOT changing and not being able to stop the acting-out which had controlled and ruined my life for 12 years.
I really don’t feel like there is THAT much in-congruence. These experiential weekends are NOT religious retreats. They do NOT teach any theological content so it really doesn’t matter if they have people from different religious involved.
The company I work for hires people of different religions. Even though our CEO is a Christian, there is not a definitely requirement to be a Christian to work at our (Fortune 500) corporation. Should I quit my job?
Good question. I really only go for social reasons now. I have a lot of friends at each of the groups. I like to go to support them. I don’t really see Exodus or Courage as being a part of my “change” directly.
I know Exodus means well, but I don’t really trust them at all for advice on reducing SSA. Some of the therapies that helped me the MOST are the ones that Exodus officially condemns.
Courage doesn’t even claim to help with “change.” That frustrates me in some ways, but I can at least appreciate their authenticity in that area.
For me, ALL of the progress to reduce SSA and open up the path for OSA have been through Reparative Therapy (with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi) http://www.josephnicolosi.com or through “Journey into Manhood” (JiM) http://www.PeopleCanChange.com and New Warriors (aka “The ManKind Project”). I can’t defend the beliefs of MKP, but the initiation weekend has some very powerful experiences for reducing SSA that are not currently available anywhere else.
I go back and staff on JiM and New Warriors because I like to support others. I also see more room for growth in terms of assertiveness and self-confidence (areas that are not necessarily exclusive to SSA).
Thanks for asking “straightgrandmother”
Good question. I really only go for social reasons now. I have a lot of friends at each of the groups. I like to go to support them. I don’t really see Exodus or Courage as being a part of my “change” directly.
I know Exodus means well, but I don’t really trust them at all for advice on reducing SSA. Some of the therapies that helped me the MOST are the ones that Exodus officially condemns.
Courage doesn’t even claim to help with “change.” That frustrates me in some ways, but I can at least appreciate their authenticity in that area.
For me, ALL of the progress to reduce SSA and open up the path for OSA have been through Reparative Therapy (with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi) http://www.josephnicolosi.com or through “Journey into Manhood” (JiM) http://www.PeopleCanChange.com and New Warriors (aka “The ManKind Project”). I can’t defend the beliefs of MKP, but the initiation weekend has some very powerful experiences for reducing SSA that are not currently available anywhere else.
I go back and staff on JiM and New Warriors because I like to support others. I also see more room for growth in terms of assertiveness and self-confidence (areas that are not necessarily exclusive to SSA).
Thanks for asking “straightgrandmother”
Jeremy Schwab, what do yo think would happen to you, or perhaps I should say, what would you be like if you never attended any group meetings regarding SSA, ever again? If it works so well why do you keep going? Thank you.
I attend Living Hope, a local Exodus ministry and have enjoyed the teaching. I also attend Courage since I’m Catholic. I actually just signed up for the upcoming “Noble Man” (November) weekend today. I staffed the ManKind project for the 2nd time this past weekend.
I have a lot of SSA friends that have gone to “Noble Man” and it has helped them overcome their emotional wounding with regard to women and also helped them in many ways with regard to OSA (opposite sex attraction).
I totally understand what Warren is saying with regard to Noble Man and the ManKind project. I am not going to either for spiritual support or even advice. I have recruited a few SSA-recovering friends to go to the ManKind Project, but ONLY a few. I don’t universally recommend it for everyone who is overcoming SSA. I do believe though that there are many experiences in the MKP weekend that are extremely helpful for reducing SSA and do not seem to be available ANYwhere else. I don’t want to say what those are here because MKP might take them out if they knew. haha 😉
I understand the question about congruence of faith vs. change. For me though, change was absolutely critical. I went to a Christian ex-gay ministry for 8 years when I was in my early 20’s and didn’t experience ANY reduction in SSA. I also had extreme sexual addiction and couldn’t seem to make any breakthroughs. That is NOT the fault of the ministry of course, but it made me much more willing to believe the “born that way” message that pro-gay churches and others presented.
After two-years of trying to embrace the “gay” identity I repented and came back to Christ. I wanted to seek help, but I didn’t trust any religious “ex-gay” ministries because of my past experience. I felt like all they knew or cared to know about the issue was that it’s a sin. I ALREADY knew that.
I sought out Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, even though he is a very devout Christian. I trusted him because he didn’t preface every therapy session with a sermon. He referred me immediately to “Journey into Manhood” which I went to in October 2009. My SSA was permanently reduced by at least 50% that weekend and I’m still seeing the results today (2 years later). That experience strengthened and emboldened my faith because I realized that God and his word were correct all along.
About 6 months after going to “Journey into Manhood” I went to the ManKind Project. I didn’t like it as a much as Journey into Manhood, but it does have many unique experiences that have benefited me tremendously in overcoming my SSA. It was frustrating to have str8 men tell me to “accept myself as gay” but that wasn’t a temptation for me anymore. It was just annoying to hear them say that. I think standing up to them was a big growth experience as well.
I would recommend “Journey into Manhood” to EVERY man who is seeking to reduce his SSA. I would ONLY recommend “Mankind Project” to those who have already attended the “Journey into Manhood” weekend and have fully integrated the experience (to the point where “gay-affirmative” messages are an annoyance and NOT a temptation).
I can’t comment on “Noble Man” yet, but I will come back and let you know how in goes when I get back November 7th.
God Bless,
Jeremy Schwab
Dallas, Texas
I attend Living Hope, a local Exodus ministry and have enjoyed the teaching. I also attend Courage since I’m Catholic. I actually just signed up for the upcoming “Noble Man” (November) weekend today. I staffed the ManKind project for the 2nd time this past weekend.
I have a lot of SSA friends that have gone to “Noble Man” and it has helped them overcome their emotional wounding with regard to women and also helped them in many ways with regard to OSA (opposite sex attraction).
I totally understand what Warren is saying with regard to Noble Man and the ManKind project. I am not going to either for spiritual support or even advice. I have recruited a few SSA-recovering friends to go to the ManKind Project, but ONLY a few. I don’t universally recommend it for everyone who is overcoming SSA. I do believe though that there are many experiences in the MKP weekend that are extremely helpful for reducing SSA and do not seem to be available ANYwhere else. I don’t want to say what those are here because MKP might take them out if they knew. haha 😉
I understand the question about congruence of faith vs. change. For me though, change was absolutely critical. I went to a Christian ex-gay ministry for 8 years when I was in my early 20’s and didn’t experience ANY reduction in SSA. I also had extreme sexual addiction and couldn’t seem to make any breakthroughs. That is NOT the fault of the ministry of course, but it made me much more willing to believe the “born that way” message that pro-gay churches and others presented.
After two-years of trying to embrace the “gay” identity I repented and came back to Christ. I wanted to seek help, but I didn’t trust any religious “ex-gay” ministries because of my past experience. I felt like all they knew or cared to know about the issue was that it’s a sin. I ALREADY knew that.
I sought out Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, even though he is a very devout Christian. I trusted him because he didn’t preface every therapy session with a sermon. He referred me immediately to “Journey into Manhood” which I went to in October 2009. My SSA was permanently reduced by at least 50% that weekend and I’m still seeing the results today (2 years later). That experience strengthened and emboldened my faith because I realized that God and his word were correct all along.
About 6 months after going to “Journey into Manhood” I went to the ManKind Project. I didn’t like it as a much as Journey into Manhood, but it does have many unique experiences that have benefited me tremendously in overcoming my SSA. It was frustrating to have str8 men tell me to “accept myself as gay” but that wasn’t a temptation for me anymore. It was just annoying to hear them say that. I think standing up to them was a big growth experience as well.
I would recommend “Journey into Manhood” to EVERY man who is seeking to reduce his SSA. I would ONLY recommend “Mankind Project” to those who have already attended the “Journey into Manhood” weekend and have fully integrated the experience (to the point where “gay-affirmative” messages are an annoyance and NOT a temptation).
I can’t comment on “Noble Man” yet, but I will come back and let you know how in goes when I get back November 7th.
God Bless,
Jeremy Schwab
Dallas, Texas
F Young# ~ Sep 10, 2011 at 11:25 am
“Nobody seems to offer counselling to change one’s religion or faith according to one’s sexual orientation. Why is that? Is it unethical? Shouldn’t psychologists give primacy to the client’s nature rather than to society’s norms? It seems that religion always has primacy.”
For a counselor to attempt to change a persons religion would be unethical in the sense that they are not trained in religion, but in psychology/counseling.
Maybe in theory, but, in practice, it seems to me that psychologists and religious counselors focus only on one approach, changing one’s sexual behaviour according to one’s religion.
Nobody seems to offer counselling to change one’s religion or faith according to one’s sexual orientation. Why is that? Is it unethical? Shouldn’t psychologists give primacy to the client’s nature rather than to society’s norms? It seems that religion always has primacy.
1. Congruence is mostly be understood as congruence between one’s values and one’s life. Which is achieved either by changing one’s values (according to one’s life) or changing one’s life (according to one’s values). Warren seems to prefer a third way but I haven’t just tried enough to understand his position.
2. In case of denominatinal organizations (jewish, mormon etc.) – they should be allowed to presuppose that their client shares the denominational values.
3. “Human potential” groups presuppose that we humans can better than we actually do (which is part of the great american traditon of self-improvement).
4. Warren convingly shows that there’s (at present) no much hope for men to become more heterosexual. But Mankind or CoB concentrate on the change not to more heterosexuality but to more masculinity – so what’s about men’s chances to become more masculine?
1. Congruence is mostly be understood as congruence between one’s values and one’s life. Which is achieved either by changing one’s values (according to one’s life) or changing one’s life (according to one’s values). Warren seems to prefer a third way but I haven’t just tried enough to understand his position.
2. In case of denominatinal organizations (jewish, mormon etc.) – they should be allowed to presuppose that their client shares the denominational values.
3. “Human potential” groups presuppose that we humans can better than we actually do (which is part of the great american traditon of self-improvement).
4. Warren convingly shows that there’s (at present) no much hope for men to become more heterosexual. But Mankind or CoB concentrate on the change not to more heterosexuality but to more masculinity – so what’s about men’s chances to become more masculine?
Thank you Dave, I really appreciate it when you write, “In other words” and then go on to explain again but in slightly more basic way.
LOL to William, that too what you said 🙂
Straight Grandmother ..
Groups that focus on Human Potential are usually self hel .. pull yourself up by your own bootstrap groups .. They sometimes include a spiritual component .. often with eastern religion meditation and such. You can google the phrase :human potential group for more information.
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Congruence is a term that is probably used most in psychological circles. Christians would call it “living a life that pleases Christ/God.” The idea is that religious people are happiest when their life is in alignment with their personal faith or religious tradition. It is .. from my understanding .. a way to shoe horn in the importance of a person’s faith when they are being counseled (even by secular counselors). Congruence with one’s faith tradition is .. I believe … recognized as important to a client’s overall mental health.. Thus while secular counselors do not promote a particular tradition or viewpoint this gives them a reason to counsel in accordance to the client’s faith tradition. In contrast with that .. groups such as Exodus .. while claiming a congruence model (re: adjusting their counseling model and method to the individual’s faith tradition) actually have their own agenda / model that basically says that it is a sin to embrace one’s same sex orientation and instead they present the idea that a change of attractions or at least on-going attempts to change one’s attractions is a biblical moral imperative. In other words they have an agenda and their agenda is the only amswer. How they represent this agenda depends on what day of the week it is and who they are talking to. However .. Sexual Identity Therapy Framework, (a congruence model) focuses on client based counseling. From what I have heard, a person may experience a change of attractions under this therapy but this is not the therapy’s goal. Its goal is for the client to be at peace with and live a life in harmony with their personal faith tradition (congruence) . Unlike orientation change programs, this form of counseling educates the client on what is likely and not likely during counsel. In other words the client is made aware of the problems of an orientation change model or expectation. From what I have seen it is much more honest in its presentation. Another advantage of the congruence model is that it provides secular counselors (who may not share the client’s faith tradition) an alternative to the sometimes automatic affirming view that is typically put out.
Hope that make sense .. if I have misspoke on SITF I trust the good doctor will correct me.
Blessings,
Dave
Straight Grandmother ..
Groups that focus on Human Potential are usually self hel .. pull yourself up by your own bootstrap groups .. They sometimes include a spiritual component .. often with eastern religion meditation and such. You can google the phrase :human potential group for more information.
—
Congruence is a term that is probably used most in psychological circles. Christians would call it “living a life that pleases Christ/God.” The idea is that religious people are happiest when their life is in alignment with their personal faith or religious tradition. It is .. from my understanding .. a way to shoe horn in the importance of a person’s faith when they are being counseled (even by secular counselors). Congruence with one’s faith tradition is .. I believe … recognized as important to a client’s overall mental health.. Thus while secular counselors do not promote a particular tradition or viewpoint this gives them a reason to counsel in accordance to the client’s faith tradition. In contrast with that .. groups such as Exodus .. while claiming a congruence model (re: adjusting their counseling model and method to the individual’s faith tradition) actually have their own agenda / model that basically says that it is a sin to embrace one’s same sex orientation and instead they present the idea that a change of attractions or at least on-going attempts to change one’s attractions is a biblical moral imperative. In other words they have an agenda and their agenda is the only amswer. How they represent this agenda depends on what day of the week it is and who they are talking to. However .. Sexual Identity Therapy Framework, (a congruence model) focuses on client based counseling. From what I have heard, a person may experience a change of attractions under this therapy but this is not the therapy’s goal. Its goal is for the client to be at peace with and live a life in harmony with their personal faith tradition (congruence) . Unlike orientation change programs, this form of counseling educates the client on what is likely and not likely during counsel. In other words the client is made aware of the problems of an orientation change model or expectation. From what I have seen it is much more honest in its presentation. Another advantage of the congruence model is that it provides secular counselors (who may not share the client’s faith tradition) an alternative to the sometimes automatic affirming view that is typically put out.
Hope that make sense .. if I have misspoke on SITF I trust the good doctor will correct me.
Blessings,
Dave
StraightGrandmother, if I might venture to make a suggestion, a Human Potential Group is a group which tests one’s human potential to disburse sums of money, e.g. $800 or so.
StraightGrandmother, if I might venture to make a suggestion, a Human Potential Group is a group which tests one’s human potential to disburse sums of money, e.g. $800 or so.
What the heck is a Human Potential Group? I have never heard of this term before. Because the article starts off with this as a first sentence it is very confusing to follow. I don’t have a clue what a Human Potential Group is.
I come here to learn, and I have been faithfully fllowing this website for a few months now, but I have to confess I really didn’t understand much of what Warren wrote and I read it a couple times. I think a flow chart is in order or something. I am visualizing a big funnel. What gets dumped into the top of the funnel, who is in the middle of the funnel and who comes out of the funnel as what?
Especially confusing is the concept of “gay men or lesbian women living in congruence with their religion” That is kind of a shorthand for a concept everyone here seems to understand completly when concrete examples would be easier to grasp the concept. I’ll keep reading the comments, usually I catch on once more people comment.
I saw a ManKind Project booth at a Pride event a few years ago. When I asked them if they knew the organization was being exploited for ex-gay nonsense, they were surprised. Both men at the booth were openly gay.
I think that despite the outward change in what they say, these groups still hold the same miguided notions about sexual orientation. That gays are broken, mentally ill, sinners.
And I often get the impression when I see the phrase”to help people live in accord with their religious beliefs.” The “their” refers a little too much to the ministers/group leaders and not enough the gay men who come to them.
I doubt any of these groups (Jonah, Exodus, etc) has ever been involved in any gay couples counseling. Even if the gay couple believes that a monogamous, same-sex relationship is in accord with the couples religious beliefs.
What the heck is a Human Potential Group? I have never heard of this term before. Because the article starts off with this as a first sentence it is very confusing to follow. I don’t have a clue what a Human Potential Group is.
I come here to learn, and I have been faithfully fllowing this website for a few months now, but I have to confess I really didn’t understand much of what Warren wrote and I read it a couple times. I think a flow chart is in order or something. I am visualizing a big funnel. What gets dumped into the top of the funnel, who is in the middle of the funnel and who comes out of the funnel as what?
Especially confusing is the concept of “gay men or lesbian women living in congruence with their religion” That is kind of a shorthand for a concept everyone here seems to understand completly when concrete examples would be easier to grasp the concept. I’ll keep reading the comments, usually I catch on once more people comment.
You are right in your observation that Exodus uses the “rhetoric of congruence.” Earlier this year, they claimed that congruence is their “mission, period” — but as you pointed out, their promotion of reparative therapy materials seems to indicate otherwise.
I agree.