National Abortion Federation quietly removes reference to Gosnell’s Delaware clinic

Sometime Friday, the National Abortion Federation removed reference to the Atlantic Women’s Medical Services in Wilmington, DE from their website. Atlantic is the clinic where Philadelphia abortion doctor and accused murderer, Kermit Gosnell, worked one day per week until early last year. For now, the clinic remains in the search cache.

Late Thursday, the NAF issued a statement to me indicating confusion about why the Philadelphia grand jury recommended that the NAF “reassess” the membership of Atlantic. At least six illegal abortions were paid for and began at the Delaware clinic. The Director of the clinic, Leroy Brinkley, failed to produce records relating to three of the clients in question. One of Gosnell’s staff, Lynda Williams, also worked at both clinics and has been charged with murder. An NAF spokesperson told me via email:

NAF has been cooperating with the District Attorney’s office in Philadelphia. We take the Grand Jury Report seriously and we need to understand why they made the recommendation that they did in order to determine how to proceed.

The grand jury report made clear why the recommendation to reassess was made.

We recommend that NAF reassess the membership of Atlantic Women’s Medical Services, the Delaware abortion clinic where Gosnell worked part-time before losing his license in that state. We learned that at least six patients were referred from Atlantic to Gosnell’s clinic in Philadelphia for illegal late-term abortions. These patients paid Atlantic for late-term procedures performed by Gosnell in his Lancaster Avenue clinic.

We heard evidence that Gosnell would insert laminaria in patients in Delaware and then have them come to his Philadelphia office for the abortion procedure itself. The director of Atlantic Women’s Medical Services, Leroy Brinkley, was unconcerned. He did not properly supervise the doctors he hired as “independent contractors” to assure that they were complying with the law. Remarkably, despite Gosnell’s long time association with Atlantic, Brinkley only produced three files for patients seen by Gosnell at Brinkley’s clinic.

Although, the NAF statement implies lack of understanding about why Atlantic should be removed, the clinic is not now showing up on the NAF website via search of clinics in DE. The membership status of Atlantic is not clear.

On Friday, the DE Attorney General, Beau Biden, announced the beginning of an investigation into the Atlantic clinic.

82 thoughts on “National Abortion Federation quietly removes reference to Gosnell’s Delaware clinic”

  1. it’s too bad that bigotry against gay people and prejudice about single people will take precedent over adoption advocacy in the minds of so many anti-abortion activists.

    Emily,

    Are you advocating adoption over abortion?

  2. I can’t speak to all of God’s plans, including any He may have had for Ishmael and his seed. The Bible only tells us He heard Abraham’s plea and cared for Ishmael. The descendants of Isaac and Ishmael are kindred nations, not nations created or designed to be enemies. The jealously and enmity were of their own making and will most certainly play a role in prophecy yet to be fulfilled. And though Christians mucked things up pretty badly themselves over the centuries, Christ’s desire was for all nations to come to him. Not to a creed.

    But this is straying off-topic. More to the topic is your last point. It is bigotry against gay people that drives some people to reject them as adoptive parents. But that’s not the reason everyone objects, or at least counsel caution in order to examine the bigger picture.

    The best thing is for mothers and fathers to marry and raise the children they conceive. Our culture is not fostering that, however. We’ve wrongly accepted as a given that it can’t happen, so we look for other options, the easiest of which is to simply eradicate the children in the womb. “Take care of the unwanted child problem.” Sounds like what a certain country discussed frequently here wants to do with its gay problem in some ways, no?

  3. Only God could know if they would be constructive or destructive, yes?

    Yes, only He could know in advance. Are we unable to trust His sovereign will in ordering every life, whether it may bring suffering into the world or prevent it? All have value to Him. Psalm 139. They are “potential” only in what they may accomplish if they are allowed to live. They are “lives” every step of the way in the womb, of course.

    There is a grave danger in trying to predetermine God’s will or select for Him who is worthy to live and who is not. If He takes care of every sparrow, is He not able to take care of every human being? Eliminating so many of the unborn has not eliminated suffering or crime or poverty, has it? It has enhanced another category of crime. Just one of those never born may have been a visionary who could have grown up to make an inestimable contribution to the world, perhaps to lessen suffering in some way. Another may have ushered in a much-needed moral awakening.

    We have failed to heed the lessons of old. Look what happened because Sarah and Abraham did not wait on God and believe His promise of an heir. Ishmael and his progeny came into the world, followed later by Isaac, through whom God’s covenant was to be fulfilled. But God had to deal with Ishmael, too. He also was permitted to beget a great nation. And the two remain at war with each other to this day.

    Most of us would prefer to see a capable single person raising a child rather than see that child bounce among foster homes. I am sure there are more than a few loving gay couples longing to raise some of these children, as well. That is still a problematic proposition in the minds of many. No easy solutions. The ship has been on its course for too long to turn it around without a great deal of effort. And each side is entrenched, as you say, Emily.

  4. While certain factions of Jews and Muslims are currently “at war,” for a while this was not the case. And the fact that Ishmael was made a “great nation” shows that God did indeed have a plan for Ishmael, yes? For a long time, that “plan” was saving the “covenant people” from Christians in Europe who sought to eradicate them through conversion or death, as they had blood on their hands (Matthew 27:25). The greatest Jewish Golden Age of the middle ages took place in Muslim Spain. After the Christians took over, Jews were expelled and Inquisition initiated.

    The kibbutz I visited in Israel was run by Holocaust survivors and their descendants and Israeli Arabs. And when Israel was first established, there was hardly a monolithic bastion of Muslims opposing it. Tel Aviv was established decades before the State of Israel existed. So I quite disagree that “Ishmael” and “Israel” are made to be enemies. Rather, we are more like cousins.

    Most of us would prefer to see a capable single person raising a child rather than see that child bounce among foster homes. I am sure there are more than a few loving gay couples longing to raise some of these children, as well. That is still a problematic proposition in the minds of many.

    Ah. well, it’s too bad that bigotry against gay people and prejudice about single people will take precedent over adoption advocacy in the minds of so many anti-abortion activists.

  5. The real topic, Emily, is Warren’s original post, which is anything but tame and ought to have a devastating impact on the abortion industry. As to the other “this,” you would think by now most PPFA counselors have been read into the possibility of an undercover person walking through their doors. But if this exposes a trend that is not just an isolated problem, it is a very big deal.

    Isn’t it interesting that we could even think of such an irregularity at an abortion clinic as a “dirty little secret” when the real horror of what abortion entails is a secret PPFA and others try to keep from getting out. I am not aware of any so-called right-wing horror that could even touch it.

  6. It seems to prove that like all organizations, there are employees who work in a corrupt manner, in violation of the ethics and mission of the organization.

    My thoughts exactly. This is not exactly a “smoking gun.”

  7. I believe it is a real video about a real event.

    The responses by the manager at PP are not a hoax.

    The actors in the video are “hoaxes” that is they are deceptively playing a roll to examine how PP policies are applied.

    Much like our case in England with the Reparative Therapist.

  8. Emily,

    Does it prove abortion should be made illegal or extremely difficult to acquire? Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?” I’ve seen a lot of “dirty little secrets” exposed from a lot of large organizations – the Right Wing has plenty of their own – and this is pretty tame to me. They had to run this sting 8 times to get a big enough screw-up to broadcast?

    It seems to prove that like all organizations, there are employees who work in a corrupt manner, in violation of the ethics and mission of the organization. It seems to prove that this one manager had a knack for being deceptive that would further endanger the lives of children sex workers.

  9. Emily – The source is the Associated Press and reporter David Crary – with whom I am acquainted. He is reporting on efforts to sting the PP which is not quite the same thing as saying the video is a hoax.

    Frankly, after what i have seen, I don’t trust any source unless I check it out for myself.

  10. Stephen,

    Thanks for checking in…hard to process your assessment with words like hoax; egregious right-wing fantasies and so on.

    And, for Pilkington there is no license at stake, as clinicians in England are all unlicensed.

    I do think there are similarities to Pilkington: an undercover reporter; inquiring about treatment offered; the person authorizing the services encouraging fraud and ignoring reporting laws.

    Did you have time to watch the 10 minute video?

  11. David – I think this blog would be ideal for a coming demographic – pro-life people who are moderate to affirming on glb political issues…and those who in one or the other camps who don’t mind reading posts which go against their grain on the one or the other issues. I intend to do a post on the increase in pro-life and pro-gay political sentiment so lots of discussion on that may need to wait til then. But I hear ya…

  12. An original decision to abort has made a u-turn more than once when the individual has information they did not originally have.

    Often that is no more than an ultrasound image of the baby. The Way of the Master recently posted a clip from the original 1966 movie “Alfie” on YouTube. It was a poignant scene in which Michael Caine’s character sees the aborted fetus of a married woman he has impregnated in one of his dalliances. He later talks about it with a friend, and acknowledges that the moment he saw the perfectly formed little body he realized he’d been an accessory to “murder.” That scene did not appear in the more recent remake of the film.

  13. PPFA’s spurious PR campaigns, often done through their editorializing accomplices in the media or their own mouthpieces writing commentaries, have left me very sad and angry over the years.

    Debbie,

    I feel the same way – not only because their message has a deleterious effect on the vulnerable but also because it is believed and promoted by people who will never set foot inside their doors for their own medical or counseling purposes.

    The very first newspaper commentary I ever wrote quite a few years ago was a response to one of these people, who was lying through her teeth. 50 million potential lives — countless contributors to society — have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade in 1973. That is a holocaust by any definition. Planned Parenthood and those of their ilk are doing little to help women and lots to keep them in bondage. A new twist on “sex trafficking”?

    Yes, Debbie, but you are presenting an inconvenient truth that some people don’t want to acknowledge. It takes a conscience to think like you do. These woman need more than a convenient abortion. Often, this convenient abortion is used as a birth control method and nothing is learned. For some the decision to abort has haunted them for years. For others, it was a decision that was personal and they are at peace with it. Information and options and alternatives can and do make a difference in how decisions are made and the effect they will have on the person for years to come. An original decision to abort has made a u-turn more than once when the individual has information they did not originally have.

  14. I can’t speak to all of God’s plans, including any He may have had for Ishmael and his seed. The Bible only tells us He heard Abraham’s plea and cared for Ishmael. The descendants of Isaac and Ishmael are kindred nations, not nations created or designed to be enemies. The jealously and enmity were of their own making and will most certainly play a role in prophecy yet to be fulfilled. And though Christians mucked things up pretty badly themselves over the centuries, Christ’s desire was for all nations to come to him. Not to a creed.

    But this is straying off-topic. More to the topic is your last point. It is bigotry against gay people that drives some people to reject them as adoptive parents. But that’s not the reason everyone objects, or at least counsel caution in order to examine the bigger picture.

    The best thing is for mothers and fathers to marry and raise the children they conceive. Our culture is not fostering that, however. We’ve wrongly accepted as a given that it can’t happen, so we look for other options, the easiest of which is to simply eradicate the children in the womb. “Take care of the unwanted child problem.” Sounds like what a certain country discussed frequently here wants to do with its gay problem in some ways, no?

  15. it’s too bad that bigotry against gay people and prejudice about single people will take precedent over adoption advocacy in the minds of so many anti-abortion activists.

    Emily,

    Are you advocating adoption over abortion?

  16. The kibbutz I visited in Israel was run by Holocaust survivors and their descendants and Israeli Arabs. And when Israel was first established, there was hardly a monolithic bastion of Muslims opposing it. Tel Aviv was established decades before the State of Israel existed. So I quite disagree that “Ishmael” and “Israel” are made to be enemies. Rather, we are more like cousins.

    Emily,

    Do you remember what countries the holocaust survivors were from?

  17. While certain factions of Jews and Muslims are currently “at war,” for a while this was not the case. And the fact that Ishmael was made a “great nation” shows that God did indeed have a plan for Ishmael, yes? For a long time, that “plan” was saving the “covenant people” from Christians in Europe who sought to eradicate them through conversion or death, as they had blood on their hands (Matthew 27:25). The greatest Jewish Golden Age of the middle ages took place in Muslim Spain. After the Christians took over, Jews were expelled and Inquisition initiated.

    The kibbutz I visited in Israel was run by Holocaust survivors and their descendants and Israeli Arabs. And when Israel was first established, there was hardly a monolithic bastion of Muslims opposing it. Tel Aviv was established decades before the State of Israel existed. So I quite disagree that “Ishmael” and “Israel” are made to be enemies. Rather, we are more like cousins.

    Most of us would prefer to see a capable single person raising a child rather than see that child bounce among foster homes. I am sure there are more than a few loving gay couples longing to raise some of these children, as well. That is still a problematic proposition in the minds of many.

    Ah. well, it’s too bad that bigotry against gay people and prejudice about single people will take precedent over adoption advocacy in the minds of so many anti-abortion activists.

  18. An original decision to abort has made a u-turn more than once when the individual has information they did not originally have.

    Often that is no more than an ultrasound image of the baby. The Way of the Master recently posted a clip from the original 1966 movie “Alfie” on YouTube. It was a poignant scene in which Michael Caine’s character sees the aborted fetus of a married woman he has impregnated in one of his dalliances. He later talks about it with a friend, and acknowledges that the moment he saw the perfectly formed little body he realized he’d been an accessory to “murder.” That scene did not appear in the more recent remake of the film.

  19. Only God could know if they would be constructive or destructive, yes?

    Yes, only He could know in advance. Are we unable to trust His sovereign will in ordering every life, whether it may bring suffering into the world or prevent it? All have value to Him. Psalm 139. They are “potential” only in what they may accomplish if they are allowed to live. They are “lives” every step of the way in the womb, of course.

    There is a grave danger in trying to predetermine God’s will or select for Him who is worthy to live and who is not. If He takes care of every sparrow, is He not able to take care of every human being? Eliminating so many of the unborn has not eliminated suffering or crime or poverty, has it? It has enhanced another category of crime. Just one of those never born may have been a visionary who could have grown up to make an inestimable contribution to the world, perhaps to lessen suffering in some way. Another may have ushered in a much-needed moral awakening.

    We have failed to heed the lessons of old. Look what happened because Sarah and Abraham did not wait on God and believe His promise of an heir. Ishmael and his progeny came into the world, followed later by Isaac, through whom God’s covenant was to be fulfilled. But God had to deal with Ishmael, too. He also was permitted to beget a great nation. And the two remain at war with each other to this day.

    Most of us would prefer to see a capable single person raising a child rather than see that child bounce among foster homes. I am sure there are more than a few loving gay couples longing to raise some of these children, as well. That is still a problematic proposition in the minds of many. No easy solutions. The ship has been on its course for too long to turn it around without a great deal of effort. And each side is entrenched, as you say, Emily.

  20. 50 million potential lives — countless contributors to society

    ..or, detractors from society. And more mouths to feed, possibly by those who cannot afford to feed them, or can only afford to nourish them with junk. Or people who end up in the foster system because there aren’t enough couples who want to adopt them (because they have too many problems, or maybe because they’re a bit too “dark” and just wouldn’t “fit in” to their family…)

    But that’s neither here nor there; a potential life is just that – potential. Only God could know if they would be constructive or destructive, yes?

    And believe me, I don’t hope to convince anybody to change their views, really I don’t. This issue drives too many passions.

    However, I would hope that those who champion adoption over abortion would also champion the right for an unmarried (single) person to adopt a child, and for gay couples (in most states “unmarried”) to adopt these children. I have a male friend who wants so badly to be a father but cannot find a woman who wants the same to marry. But he knows the stigma against a single male adopting a child is too great (and possibly illegal, I’m unsure) to want to pursue that avenue. It’s a shame.

  21. PPFA’s spurious PR campaigns, often done through their editorializing accomplices in the media or their own mouthpieces writing commentaries, have left me very sad and angry over the years.

    Debbie,

    I feel the same way – not only because their message has a deleterious effect on the vulnerable but also because it is believed and promoted by people who will never set foot inside their doors for their own medical or counseling purposes.

    The very first newspaper commentary I ever wrote quite a few years ago was a response to one of these people, who was lying through her teeth. 50 million potential lives — countless contributors to society — have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade in 1973. That is a holocaust by any definition. Planned Parenthood and those of their ilk are doing little to help women and lots to keep them in bondage. A new twist on “sex trafficking”?

    Yes, Debbie, but you are presenting an inconvenient truth that some people don’t want to acknowledge. It takes a conscience to think like you do. These woman need more than a convenient abortion. Often, this convenient abortion is used as a birth control method and nothing is learned. For some the decision to abort has haunted them for years. For others, it was a decision that was personal and they are at peace with it. Information and options and alternatives can and do make a difference in how decisions are made and the effect they will have on the person for years to come. An original decision to abort has made a u-turn more than once when the individual has information they did not originally have.

  22. Ann, PPFA’s spurious PR campaigns, often done through their editorializing accomplices in the media or their own mouthpieces writing commentaries, have left me very sad and angry over the years. The very first newspaper commentary I ever wrote quite a few years ago was a response to one of these people, who was lying through her teeth. 50 million potential lives — countless contributors to society — have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade in 1973. That is a holocaust by any definition. Planned Parenthood and those of their ilk are doing little to help women and lots to keep them in bondage. A new twist on “sex trafficking”?

  23. Emily,

    Do you consider anti-choice, pro-life, and anti-abortion the same thing?

  24. The kibbutz I visited in Israel was run by Holocaust survivors and their descendants and Israeli Arabs. And when Israel was first established, there was hardly a monolithic bastion of Muslims opposing it. Tel Aviv was established decades before the State of Israel existed. So I quite disagree that “Ishmael” and “Israel” are made to be enemies. Rather, we are more like cousins.

    Emily,

    Do you remember what countries the holocaust survivors were from?

  25. They are about the profitability in abortion, first and foremost.

    Debbie,

    Yes, and this is why I do not think they should be funded. Planned Parenthood has been around a long time and I have not seen anything different about their objective over many years.

    BTW – welcome back. It is good to see your comments and reasoned way of thinking.

  26. Emily, if Planned Parenthood were to take a leading role in advocating adoption as an alternative to abortion, they would be met with far less opposition from those who object to abortion-on-demand for any reason. As it is, they rarely counsel women with unplanned/unwanted pregnancies about adoption options. They are about the profitability in abortion, first and foremost. Apparently, seeking to alter their public image (though that is also a selfish motive) by saying they are ready to help both women in distress and their unborn children has not entered their minds.

    No matter how much money or what kind of education programs we muster, we cannot change human nature. That is what drives our sexual urges. Abortion does not merely impact teenagers or the poor. That’s a misperception. Plenty of older married women are having elective abortions.

    We have a collective moral obligation to see all women considering abortion counseled on ALL their options rather than herding them like cattle into abortion clinics. Crisis pregnancy centers are doing heroic work. Many married couples cannot conceive and bear children. We have created another lucrative industry in fertility clinics and practices to prey on their desperation when the very best solution is to help those with unwanted pregnancies to consider allowing these couples to adopt their children. I see nothing heroic in abortion. I know it is an agonizing decision for many women. Those who choose to carry their babies and give them up for adoption are heroes in my view, however.

    I have talked here about the practical. The most important point is that life is only God’s to give and take.

  27. 50 million potential lives — countless contributors to society

    ..or, detractors from society. And more mouths to feed, possibly by those who cannot afford to feed them, or can only afford to nourish them with junk. Or people who end up in the foster system because there aren’t enough couples who want to adopt them (because they have too many problems, or maybe because they’re a bit too “dark” and just wouldn’t “fit in” to their family…)

    But that’s neither here nor there; a potential life is just that – potential. Only God could know if they would be constructive or destructive, yes?

    And believe me, I don’t hope to convince anybody to change their views, really I don’t. This issue drives too many passions.

    However, I would hope that those who champion adoption over abortion would also champion the right for an unmarried (single) person to adopt a child, and for gay couples (in most states “unmarried”) to adopt these children. I have a male friend who wants so badly to be a father but cannot find a woman who wants the same to marry. But he knows the stigma against a single male adopting a child is too great (and possibly illegal, I’m unsure) to want to pursue that avenue. It’s a shame.

  28. Ann, PPFA’s spurious PR campaigns, often done through their editorializing accomplices in the media or their own mouthpieces writing commentaries, have left me very sad and angry over the years. The very first newspaper commentary I ever wrote quite a few years ago was a response to one of these people, who was lying through her teeth. 50 million potential lives — countless contributors to society — have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade in 1973. That is a holocaust by any definition. Planned Parenthood and those of their ilk are doing little to help women and lots to keep them in bondage. A new twist on “sex trafficking”?

  29. They are about the profitability in abortion, first and foremost.

    Debbie,

    Yes, and this is why I do not think they should be funded. Planned Parenthood has been around a long time and I have not seen anything different about their objective over many years.

    BTW – welcome back. It is good to see your comments and reasoned way of thinking.

  30. Emily, if Planned Parenthood were to take a leading role in advocating adoption as an alternative to abortion, they would be met with far less opposition from those who object to abortion-on-demand for any reason. As it is, they rarely counsel women with unplanned/unwanted pregnancies about adoption options. They are about the profitability in abortion, first and foremost. Apparently, seeking to alter their public image (though that is also a selfish motive) by saying they are ready to help both women in distress and their unborn children has not entered their minds.

    No matter how much money or what kind of education programs we muster, we cannot change human nature. That is what drives our sexual urges. Abortion does not merely impact teenagers or the poor. That’s a misperception. Plenty of older married women are having elective abortions.

    We have a collective moral obligation to see all women considering abortion counseled on ALL their options rather than herding them like cattle into abortion clinics. Crisis pregnancy centers are doing heroic work. Many married couples cannot conceive and bear children. We have created another lucrative industry in fertility clinics and practices to prey on their desperation when the very best solution is to help those with unwanted pregnancies to consider allowing these couples to adopt their children. I see nothing heroic in abortion. I know it is an agonizing decision for many women. Those who choose to carry their babies and give them up for adoption are heroes in my view, however.

    I have talked here about the practical. The most important point is that life is only God’s to give and take.

  31. Accusing conservatives of being “obsessed” with what other people are doing with their bodies is a way to call them “sick” or disturbed.

    There are numerous public policy consequences associated with adolescent sexual behavior.

  32. Emily,

    Maybe if anti-choice people focused more on providing comprehensive sex education and more on providing a realistic view of human sexuality in general, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. Instead they’re obsessed with what others are doing with their bodies and obsessed with when/how/why/how often they have sex.

    Comprehensive sex education, which includes abstinence education may be helpful; but it might not be! Education is generally a good idea; but outcome research is dubious on its effectiveness.

    For example, the DARE program in elementary schools to inoculate children against drug abuse is no more effective at prevention than no program.

    Sad, I know.

    Sexual activity in adolescence is rarely associated with maturity or sound judgment (a phenomenon which education expects will happen with proper training). It is usually an impulsive, selfish act; often born of subtle coercion, curiosity and opportunity.

  33. Seems pretty dishonest. If you hate planned parenthood b/c you hate that it provides abortions in some locations, just say that. don’t use this as an excuse, because then you’d have to call into question mostly likely ever single other corporation and organization in America. As David said, any organization can have bad apples no matter what their mission is.

    Who are you referring to when you use the word “you” above?

    Maybe if anti-choice people focused more on providing comprehensive sex education and more on providing a realistic view of human sexuality in general, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. Instead they’re obsessed with what others are doing with their bodies and obsessed with when/how/why/how often they have sex.

    Ok, what does anti-choice mean?

  34. Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?”

    Yup

    How does it prove this?

    As far as I can tell, the only people calling for defunding of planned parenthood are people who just hate abortion and hate that it’s legal in America. And they’re just using this incident as an excuse to call for its destruction once again. Seems pretty dishonest. If you hate planned parenthood b/c you hate that it provides abortions in some locations, just say that. don’t use this as an excuse, because then you’d have to call into question mostly likely ever single other corporation and organization in America. As David said, any organization can have bad apples no matter what their mission is.

    Maybe if anti-choice people focused more on providing comprehensive sex education and more on providing a realistic view of human sexuality in general, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. Instead they’re obsessed with what others are doing with their bodies and obsessed with when/how/why/how often they have sex.

  35. Does it prove abortion should be made illegal or extremely difficult to acquire?

    Not illegal but definately and unfortunately regulated more than it is now.

    Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?”

    Yup

    I’ve seen a lot of “dirty little secrets” exposed from a lot of large organizations – the Right Wing has plenty of their own – and this is pretty tame to me. They had to run this sting 8 times to get a big enough screw-up to broadcast?

    Without a conscience, all bets are off when it comes to dirty little secrets. No one is immune to being a perpetrator or the victim of one. I don’t think it is really any secret that the left wing usually endorses and protects errant behavior, often at the cost of another’s well being. Abortion is one of these.

  36. I wouldn’t assume friendship either…a common humanity with ideals which drive us ambitiously, but which often get us to misunderstand those who disagree.

    A common humanity.

  37. I wouldn’t take it that far. I mean, I’m sure that James Dobson and I agree on SOME things, for example. I don’t consider too many people to be “enemies.” This doesn’t mean they’re friends, either.

  38. Accusing conservatives of being “obsessed” with what other people are doing with their bodies is a way to call them “sick” or disturbed.

    There are numerous public policy consequences associated with adolescent sexual behavior.

  39. Emily,

    Maybe if anti-choice people focused more on providing comprehensive sex education and more on providing a realistic view of human sexuality in general, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. Instead they’re obsessed with what others are doing with their bodies and obsessed with when/how/why/how often they have sex.

    Comprehensive sex education, which includes abstinence education may be helpful; but it might not be! Education is generally a good idea; but outcome research is dubious on its effectiveness.

    For example, the DARE program in elementary schools to inoculate children against drug abuse is no more effective at prevention than no program.

    Sad, I know.

    Sexual activity in adolescence is rarely associated with maturity or sound judgment (a phenomenon which education expects will happen with proper training). It is usually an impulsive, selfish act; often born of subtle coercion, curiosity and opportunity.

  40. Seems pretty dishonest. If you hate planned parenthood b/c you hate that it provides abortions in some locations, just say that. don’t use this as an excuse, because then you’d have to call into question mostly likely ever single other corporation and organization in America. As David said, any organization can have bad apples no matter what their mission is.

    Who are you referring to when you use the word “you” above?

    Maybe if anti-choice people focused more on providing comprehensive sex education and more on providing a realistic view of human sexuality in general, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. Instead they’re obsessed with what others are doing with their bodies and obsessed with when/how/why/how often they have sex.

    Ok, what does anti-choice mean?

  41. Emily K,

    If you can step out of your Political Mind, you will find you have much in common with those you reactively assume are your enemies.

  42. Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?”

    Yup

    How does it prove this?

    As far as I can tell, the only people calling for defunding of planned parenthood are people who just hate abortion and hate that it’s legal in America. And they’re just using this incident as an excuse to call for its destruction once again. Seems pretty dishonest. If you hate planned parenthood b/c you hate that it provides abortions in some locations, just say that. don’t use this as an excuse, because then you’d have to call into question mostly likely ever single other corporation and organization in America. As David said, any organization can have bad apples no matter what their mission is.

    Maybe if anti-choice people focused more on providing comprehensive sex education and more on providing a realistic view of human sexuality in general, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. Instead they’re obsessed with what others are doing with their bodies and obsessed with when/how/why/how often they have sex.

  43. Does it prove abortion should be made illegal or extremely difficult to acquire?

    Not illegal but definately and unfortunately regulated more than it is now.

    Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?”

    Yup

    I’ve seen a lot of “dirty little secrets” exposed from a lot of large organizations – the Right Wing has plenty of their own – and this is pretty tame to me. They had to run this sting 8 times to get a big enough screw-up to broadcast?

    Without a conscience, all bets are off when it comes to dirty little secrets. No one is immune to being a perpetrator or the victim of one. I don’t think it is really any secret that the left wing usually endorses and protects errant behavior, often at the cost of another’s well being. Abortion is one of these.

  44. I wouldn’t assume friendship either…a common humanity with ideals which drive us ambitiously, but which often get us to misunderstand those who disagree.

    A common humanity.

  45. I certainly hope it is not a problem we will see being exposed more widely. But how will a woman of any age and of any circumstances or social standing be sure she is walking into a clinic that does not have people like this unscrupulous counselor working there? I am well aware that many abortion providers and workers fervently believe they are protecting women and their rights. I also know there are unknown numbers of others who are driven by greed and avarice and have no compunctions against preying on women in their distress. Money makes the world go around. Ask PPFA how lucrative the business of abortion is. The Guttmacher Institute and PPFA’s own website give us enough information that smoking guns are unnecessary.

  46. I wouldn’t take it that far. I mean, I’m sure that James Dobson and I agree on SOME things, for example. I don’t consider too many people to be “enemies.” This doesn’t mean they’re friends, either.

  47. Emily K,

    If you can step out of your Political Mind, you will find you have much in common with those you reactively assume are your enemies.

  48. I certainly hope it is not a problem we will see being exposed more widely. But how will a woman of any age and of any circumstances or social standing be sure she is walking into a clinic that does not have people like this unscrupulous counselor working there? I am well aware that many abortion providers and workers fervently believe they are protecting women and their rights. I also know there are unknown numbers of others who are driven by greed and avarice and have no compunctions against preying on women in their distress. Money makes the world go around. Ask PPFA how lucrative the business of abortion is. The Guttmacher Institute and PPFA’s own website give us enough information that smoking guns are unnecessary.

  49. It seems to prove that like all organizations, there are employees who work in a corrupt manner, in violation of the ethics and mission of the organization.

    My thoughts exactly. This is not exactly a “smoking gun.”

  50. Emily,

    Does it prove abortion should be made illegal or extremely difficult to acquire? Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?” I’ve seen a lot of “dirty little secrets” exposed from a lot of large organizations – the Right Wing has plenty of their own – and this is pretty tame to me. They had to run this sting 8 times to get a big enough screw-up to broadcast?

    It seems to prove that like all organizations, there are employees who work in a corrupt manner, in violation of the ethics and mission of the organization. It seems to prove that this one manager had a knack for being deceptive that would further endanger the lives of children sex workers.

  51. The real topic, Emily, is Warren’s original post, which is anything but tame and ought to have a devastating impact on the abortion industry. As to the other “this,” you would think by now most PPFA counselors have been read into the possibility of an undercover person walking through their doors. But if this exposes a trend that is not just an isolated problem, it is a very big deal.

    Isn’t it interesting that we could even think of such an irregularity at an abortion clinic as a “dirty little secret” when the real horror of what abortion entails is a secret PPFA and others try to keep from getting out. I am not aware of any so-called right-wing horror that could even touch it.

  52. I believe it is a real video about a real event.

    The responses by the manager at PP are not a hoax.

    The actors in the video are “hoaxes” that is they are deceptively playing a roll to examine how PP policies are applied.

    Much like our case in England with the Reparative Therapist.

  53. I’m curious about what people here (who clearly identify as “pro-life”) think this proves. Does it prove abortion should be made illegal or extremely difficult to acquire? Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?” I’ve seen a lot of “dirty little secrets” exposed from a lot of large organizations – the Right Wing has plenty of their own – and this is pretty tame to me. They had to run this sting 8 times to get a big enough screw-up to broadcast?

  54. Emily – The source is the Associated Press and reporter David Crary – with whom I am acquainted. He is reporting on efforts to sting the PP which is not quite the same thing as saying the video is a hoax.

    Frankly, after what i have seen, I don’t trust any source unless I check it out for myself.

  55. Stephen,

    Thanks for checking in…hard to process your assessment with words like hoax; egregious right-wing fantasies and so on.

    And, for Pilkington there is no license at stake, as clinicians in England are all unlicensed.

    I do think there are similarities to Pilkington: an undercover reporter; inquiring about treatment offered; the person authorizing the services encouraging fraud and ignoring reporting laws.

    Did you have time to watch the 10 minute video?

  56. David, that video is by an associate of Michael O’Keefe – of the famous ACORN hoax. Its makers are being investigated by the FBI. Planned Parenthood has fired two employees. Perhaps you’re not aware but the site you link to seems to be a dumping ground for the most egregious right-wing fantasies. There was no sting against Pilkington. A reporter uncovered her defrauding the NHS by peddling discredited quasi-religious ‘cures’. Let’s hope she loses her license.

  57. I’m curious about what people here (who clearly identify as “pro-life”) think this proves. Does it prove abortion should be made illegal or extremely difficult to acquire? Does it prove planned parenthood should be “de-funded?” I’ve seen a lot of “dirty little secrets” exposed from a lot of large organizations – the Right Wing has plenty of their own – and this is pretty tame to me. They had to run this sting 8 times to get a big enough screw-up to broadcast?

  58. At about the 4:40 mark she refers them explicitly to a location where “they don’t get audited as closely as we do…”

  59. David, that video is by an associate of Michael O’Keefe – of the famous ACORN hoax. Its makers are being investigated by the FBI. Planned Parenthood has fired two employees. Perhaps you’re not aware but the site you link to seems to be a dumping ground for the most egregious right-wing fantasies. There was no sting against Pilkington. A reporter uncovered her defrauding the NHS by peddling discredited quasi-religious ‘cures’. Let’s hope she loses her license.

  60. David has brought up some valid observations. When the discussions here center mostly on GLBT issues that inevitably come full circle over and over again, and truly do appeal to a small demographic, it makes this blog appear less and less relevant. There are still big and valid questions there, of course, whether folks believe they are settled or not.

    And then there is the never-ending two-person discussion on Berg vs. Obama. What?

    I, too, have wondered at the dearth of comments here on the Philadelphia abortion clinic scandal. It is a tsunami poised to bring major reversals to the abortion industry. Pro-life sentiment is growing among younger generations, while they have been increasingly convinced that a moderate stance on GLBT issues is the right way to go. Interesting, given that the sexual revolution helped birth both the feminism/abortion movement and the gay-rights movement. Seems to me the latter movement has proved smarter in its PR efforts than the pro-abortion crowd, who continue to suffer from self-inflicted wounds. And pro-abortion defectors are more compelling in their testimonies than “ex-gays” are. You can just call a claimed “former” a liar, but how do you put a child dismembered in-utero together again?

    Most of us are more double-minded in our views of sexuality and “social justice” than we are on sanctity-of-life issues. We realize knowing when life begins is not above our pay grade — that it is God’s to give and take. The problem is we cannot decouple the selfish desire for sexual freedom from abortion as an extreme form of birth control or a cowardly cop-out from the consequences. It was inevitable that one would lead to the other.

    And the most odious fact to be highlighted by Gosnell’s crimes is the abortion industry’s disproportionate preying upon the poorest among us. Few people want to talk about PPFA’s inglorious eugenics history either. Liberal proponents of the welfare state can sit in their ivory towers with unsoiled hands while they condemn the disenfranchised to death. And the feminists are where?

    Remember that morality, informed by faith in a living God who orders the affairs of mankind, is the basis for all public policy. Social-political cliques can push folks with unwanted (and overcome) SSA into a corner if they wish, but they will never push God into irrelevancy. “The truth will out.”

  61. At about the 4:40 mark she refers them explicitly to a location where “they don’t get audited as closely as we do…”

  62. David has brought up some valid observations. When the discussions here center mostly on GLBT issues that inevitably come full circle over and over again, and truly do appeal to a small demographic, it makes this blog appear less and less relevant. There are still big and valid questions there, of course, whether folks believe they are settled or not.

    And then there is the never-ending two-person discussion on Berg vs. Obama. What?

    I, too, have wondered at the dearth of comments here on the Philadelphia abortion clinic scandal. It is a tsunami poised to bring major reversals to the abortion industry. Pro-life sentiment is growing among younger generations, while they have been increasingly convinced that a moderate stance on GLBT issues is the right way to go. Interesting, given that the sexual revolution helped birth both the feminism/abortion movement and the gay-rights movement. Seems to me the latter movement has proved smarter in its PR efforts than the pro-abortion crowd, who continue to suffer from self-inflicted wounds. And pro-abortion defectors are more compelling in their testimonies than “ex-gays” are. You can just call a claimed “former” a liar, but how do you put a child dismembered in-utero together again?

    Most of us are more double-minded in our views of sexuality and “social justice” than we are on sanctity-of-life issues. We realize knowing when life begins is not above our pay grade — that it is God’s to give and take. The problem is we cannot decouple the selfish desire for sexual freedom from abortion as an extreme form of birth control or a cowardly cop-out from the consequences. It was inevitable that one would lead to the other.

    And the most odious fact to be highlighted by Gosnell’s crimes is the abortion industry’s disproportionate preying upon the poorest among us. Few people want to talk about PPFA’s inglorious eugenics history either. Liberal proponents of the welfare state can sit in their ivory towers with unsoiled hands while they condemn the disenfranchised to death. And the feminists are where?

    Remember that morality, informed by faith in a living God who orders the affairs of mankind, is the basis for all public policy. Social-political cliques can push folks with unwanted (and overcome) SSA into a corner if they wish, but they will never push God into irrelevancy. “The truth will out.”

  63. I know you do.

    Demographically, GLBT issues attract a small portion of the population; those with unwanted SSA are even a smaller group. Extended family and friends add to the pool.

    In addition, most people have already picked a side and are uninterested in other points of view.

    The largest issue is the intersection of faith, culture, values and public policy.

    The issue of SSA, expression, legal rights and public policy was a training ground that established a framework to have a competent, thoughtful voice…now,

    1. create explicitly that framework

    2. Identify a dozen or so topics that you think are worth focusing upon

    3. Contact various public policy schools at secular and religious universities to invite contributors.

    4. Solicit funding (I’ve got $10 to donate).

    5. Stand back and watch it all happen.

  64. David – I think this blog would be ideal for a coming demographic – pro-life people who are moderate to affirming on glb political issues…and those who in one or the other camps who don’t mind reading posts which go against their grain on the one or the other issues. I intend to do a post on the increase in pro-life and pro-gay political sentiment so lots of discussion on that may need to wait til then. But I hear ya…

  65. The traffic at this site is skewed to GLBT issues; justifiable outrage over Kato’s murder, a grown man taking tremendous risks for personal freedom, dwarfs responses to Gosnell’s calculated, prolonged and cruel murders in the name of medicine and freedom.

    In order for this site to realize its dream of commenting and attracting comment on a variety of social issues it needs to find a larger audience.

    We have done much good…there is more to do.

  66. I know you do.

    Demographically, GLBT issues attract a small portion of the population; those with unwanted SSA are even a smaller group. Extended family and friends add to the pool.

    In addition, most people have already picked a side and are uninterested in other points of view.

    The largest issue is the intersection of faith, culture, values and public policy.

    The issue of SSA, expression, legal rights and public policy was a training ground that established a framework to have a competent, thoughtful voice…now,

    1. create explicitly that framework

    2. Identify a dozen or so topics that you think are worth focusing upon

    3. Contact various public policy schools at secular and religious universities to invite contributors.

    4. Solicit funding (I’ve got $10 to donate).

    5. Stand back and watch it all happen.

  67. The traffic at this site is skewed to GLBT issues; justifiable outrage over Kato’s murder, a grown man taking tremendous risks for personal freedom, dwarfs responses to Gosnell’s calculated, prolonged and cruel murders in the name of medicine and freedom.

    In order for this site to realize its dream of commenting and attracting comment on a variety of social issues it needs to find a larger audience.

    We have done much good…there is more to do.

  68. Check out every place this man worked…check out every complaint in every state.

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