More media on the Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill

Here’s a treatment of the bill which quotes all sides.

Not sure when this article was researched but this section seems to contradict another statement of a Bishop from the Anglican Church of Uganda.

The Bill has the support of various religious groups in Uganda, who have been battling the gay movements. Some of the leaders in the Pentecostal churches in Uganda have been accused of practising homosexuality.

Religious leaders from the Orthodox Church, Pentecostal Church and Islam, in appearing before the Parliamentary and Presidential Affairs Committee, say the law against homosexuality was timely, but they were opposed to the death penalty.

Reverend Canon Aaron Mwesigye Kafundizeki, the Church of Uganda provincial secretary, tells IPS: “It is an important law, but the provision related to the death penalty may prevent this law from being passed, because death should not be accepted as a punishment. Therefore propose another form of punishment instead of death.”

Kafundizeki said pushing for extra territorial jurisdiction would be counter-productive.

“The Church of Uganda is saying we need to limit ourselves to the Ugandan territory, instead of extra territorial jurisdiction, because the Ugandan constitution is very clear on protocols and ratifications. Going beyond the borders will be counter-productive,” he says.

Here the Canon said the Church of Uganda had not taken a position on the bill.

From the Rev. Canon Aaron Mwesigye

Anglican Province of Uganda

November 6, 2009

The Church of Uganda is studying the proposed “Anti-homosexuality bill” and, therefore, does not yet have an official position on the bill. In the meantime, we can restate our position on a number of related issues.

Perhaps the Canon means the church has not taken an official position. He seemed to be favorable toward the bill if the death penalty and extraterritoriality were removed.

44 thoughts on “More media on the Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill”

  1. Yesterday, Warren read this statement from Exodus on UK radio. It was an excellent exchange between Dr. Throckmorton and Martin Ssempa — really worth listening to. Here’s the statement Warren read:

    “Exodus International opposes this legislation as we believe that the Christian Church must be a safe, compassionate place for those who are confused and conflicted by their sexuality. Such legislation would inhibit church and ministry leader’s ability to assist hurting individuals struggling with this issue.”

    http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/11/audio-throckmorton-ssempa-debate-anti-homoexuality-bill/

    Thanks to Exodus for giving the statement to Warren. Now, it seems it would be a very simple task to isssue it as a press release, as Exodus has done on other matters.

    http://www.exodusinternational.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=21&Itemid=173 Why NOT do it?

  2. Felt bad all night about my tendency to be negative, stubborn and arugumentative. I found a quote that I need to make my own:

    Never miss a good chance to shut up. — Will Rogers 1879 — 1935

    I already know how to speak up. Lord, help me with this one.

  3. I would again like to remind people that leaders of the March ex-gay conference in Uganda equated the nation’s homosexuals — practicing or not — with child molesters, and that the sponsors of the legislation continue to do so.

    Hearing Martin Ssempa yesterday on British Christian radio with Warren is a blatant reminder that he is the lead pony in Uganda’s race to condemn all gays and equate them with child molesters.

    Try as I may to find common ground and pray as I may, I remain painfully aware that there are deep spiritual and ideological divides between gays and ex-gays that can only be ameliorated by the grace, mercy and peace of God Almighty. Help us, Lord.

  4. Suffice it to say that whichever side might be to blame, there is strong and persistent animosity and distrust between many gays and many Christians. A gap of mis-undertstanding and intolerance. It exists. Neither side thinks the other has done enough to cross it.

    Gay Christians, SSA Christians and ex-gay Christians — could be the bridge.

  5. Oops. Feel myself going back into bickering mode. All of Eddy’s points are indeed possibilities. I will resist the temptation to get into pointless verbal battles and get back to more productive and positive things. My apologies to the rest of the blog.

  6. All of those things are possibilities, but I still maintain that much of the animosity is earned. You don’t seem to think so. You seem to think Christians have done a bang-up job of communicating God’s love and grace towards gays. Blame thugs. Blame gays. Oh, well. You have made up your mind. I have made up mine.

    I frimly believe that Christians are largely responsible for the attitudes many gays have about them. Do gays unfairly heap blame on Christians? Yes. Do Christians too often do the reverse? Yes. As Debbie said,

    It’s both, guys.

    You said:

    Please remember that one distinction of homosexuality is that it does not fully appreciate the otherness of heterosexuality; there is comfort and safety and no challenge in the sameness.

    That, I think, is just plain ridiculous. Comfort, safety and no challenge in sameness? Have you ever lived for years with a gay lover? I can assure you, just as with straight marriages, there is much challenge for any two people to make it work — whether they are gay or straight.

    However, this, I think, is true:

    Many gays have fought long and hard battles to achieve a measure of self-love and acceptance and they don’t take well to anyone who believes they are blemished–whether that be physically, emotionally or spiritually.

    Tell a person often enough that they are defective in some way and they begin to believe it. And if they believe it, they tenf to act like it.

    The diagnosis of homosexuality as a “disorder” is a contributing factor to the pathology of those homosexuals who do become mentally ill…. Nothing is more likely to make you sick than being constantly told that you are sick. ~Ronald Gold

  7. Mike Airhart–

    What a worthy judge you are! In my post that commented on yours, all I did was ask questions and yet somehow you were able to form an opinion on my value judgements re the Ugandan situation. Amazing skills.

    For the record, I’ve pretty much had one major concern re the Ugandan situation. I believe that efforts to reach across into another culture demand communication that is as precise and clear as possible. I believe that the mixing of voices…the gays, the ex-gays, the Christians, the non, those of other faiths…also demands enhanced and more precise communication. I further believe that much of the rhetoric I’ve been hearing has been manipulative to some degree. Michael Bussee has delivered so many shame-based messages that I’ve lost count. (“if they don’t respond, then surely they are callous, unfeeling and/or anti-gay”…”I don’t know why they are slow to respond, it must be….”) And your statement that I quoted was also manipulative. That’s all I was getting at. It wasn’t completely true. Numbers-wise, it’s not nit-picking at all. “Persons who are HIV positive who put others at risk” is a far, far smaller number than “persons who are HIV positive”. Persons who knowingly put others at risk are a quite distinct category from persons who are simply HIV positive. I would think that you would know that and that you’d see that the distinction was significant to the overall truth of your piece.

  8. What other explanation do you have for why so many gays have such deep-felt animosity towards us?

    Several possibilities:

    1) Some have a strong and deep-felt animosity towards ‘breeders’…it seems they dislike most anyone who isn’t a part of the club.

    2) Perhaps it’s a dislike of things and people that they can’t understand…a fear of the unknown that they can’t admit, so it’s easier to redirect the fear into animosity.

    3) Christians, even those who aren’t being oppressive towards gays, aspire to holiness and righteousness while the goal of many gays is to ‘push the envelope’ on all things moral…so they perceive Christians as their opposites and their enemies, hence the animosity.

    4) Please remember that one distinction of homosexuality is that it does not fully appreciate the otherness of heterosexuality; there is comfort and safety and no challenge in the sameness. (Some think that’s a learned part of ‘the condition’.) So, Christians are even more ‘other minded’ than even the everyday breeders (those that aren’t identified as Christians) and that fuels the feelings of animosity.

    5) Gay activists have been laying all offenses against gays on the Christians for years. Even when there is no direct connection, the assumption is pushed that the perpetrators must have learned their bigotry from their early church upbringing. So even when the thugs are hard-partying, drug and alcohol abusing people who haven’t stepped inside a church for years, the blame is still placed on the Christians. Those gays who aren’t critical thinkers swallow that crap whole and see the Christians as their oppressors rather than the thugs who actually perpetrated the violence or bullying.

    6) We use the word ‘sin’ and we believe that people are fallen, broken and in need of a savior/redeemer. Many gays have fought long and hard battles to achieve a measure of self-love and acceptance and they don’t take well to anyone who believes they are blemished–whether that be physically, emotionally or spiritually.

  9. I would again like to remind people that leaders of the March ex-gay conference in Uganda equated the nation’s homosexuals — practicing or not — with child molesters, and that the sponsors of the legislation continue to do so.

  10. Eddy and Debbie Thurman challenge the accuracy of my statement at Truth Wins Out.

    I think you both are nitpicking: The fact that the legislation does not explicitly call for execution of celibate homosexuals, or of celibate HIV-positive individuals, is a moot point. I find it disturbing that you might feel that celibate vs. practicing homosexuals should be treated differently — or that you think they might actually be treated differently by a mob-slash-jury that has been brainwashed by a nation of despotic politicians and corrupt pastors who have trained their followers to treat any homosexual — practicing or otherwise — as they would a child molester.

    No one can know what happens in private; anyone suspected of being gay — even if they are intersexed or a drag queen — will be assumed by the mob to be guilty of the behavior, and then punished accordingly.

    I am dismayed at what I perceive to be your ignorance of the intentional conflation of gay orientation, gay behavior, and transgender biology and identity, all of which routinely occur in the rhetoric of the U.S. Christian Right as well as the rhetoric of the Uganda bill’s supporters.

  11. Understand, I am not talking about me here. I know that I tend to grab something and not let go, that I am rarely satisfied and that “it’s a matter of days before we have to tread through the same waters again and satisfy the same inquiries and challenges.” I do that a lot.

    I am talking about the widespread negativity of so many gays towards Christians? Why do you think they have it?

  12. We are going to have to disagree on this one, Eddy. I think we (Christians) have earned the distrust. What other explanation do you have for why so many gays have such deep-felt animosity towards us?

  13. Is it that you just can’t please gays — or that we have not been very pleasing?

    I think it’s the former. Lots of demanding and never, ever satisfied. Even when we’ve occasionally reached some ‘resolve’ or ‘conclusion’ on this blogsite, it seems it’s a matter of days before we have to tread through the same waters again and satisfy the same inquiries and challenges.

    Purely my opinion but I’ve got a hunch that many will relate to it.

  14. We started Exodus, in large part, because we believed the Church had failed to really communicate the love of God to gays. They understood His judgement,but not His mercy.

    I still don’t think Christians have worked hard enough to change the misperception. I think we have gotten a few miles off-shore, but we still have a lot of swimming to do.

  15. If we all swam to Africa, it wouldn’t be enough to please them.

    Do you really think we Christians have done enough to communicate the really message of the Gospel? Is it that you just can’t please gays — or that we have not been very pleasing?

  16. That’s not a truism. Sometimes it is the fault of the one resisting help.

    Our professor said it was “likely” the therapist’s fault, not “always”. I think he said it to encourage us to look to ourselves FIRST instead of blaming a “resistant” patient. Perhaps we were doing something to cause the patient to “resist”. After 30 years in the mental health field, I have found that my professor was usually right about this.

  17. This slowness to respond to the Ugandan situation is presented as a reason why many gays still have a distaste and mistrust for Christians. I believe that most gays are not even aware of the Ugandan bill–let alone the Ugandan culture and it’s religiosity…so the issue of the slowness of American Christians to respond would be far, very far from consideration.

    If we all swam to Africa, it wouldn’t be enough to please them.

  18. “If a patient does not improve, it is likely the therapist’s fault, not the patient’s.”

    That’s not a truism. Sometimes it is the fault of the one resisting help.

  19. Nigerian calls on Anglican Communion to oppose Ugandan “Kill Gays” bill

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/11/11/16553

    the link contains an excerpt from a letter sent Canterbury by a Nigerian who has suffered under Akinola and is now in exile. This appeared in one of the London newspapers. Bishop Rowan no longer can claim ignorance of the horror about to take place in Uganda.

  20. You know, I’ve been in contact with some of my old gay friends from high school and not one of them is speaking up. Some people just can’t. We must pursue where we can.

  21. When I was studying to become a therapist, a wise professor told us, “If a patient does not improve, it is likely the therapist’s fault, not the patient’s.” I think the same holds true for Christians. If gays think we hate them — or that God does — it is largely our failing to communicate that clearly, not theirs in not wanting to hear.

  22. …yet it’s the Christians whose slowness we note and proclaim.

    That’s because I believe Christians have an even greater responsibility to do so. It’s a Biblical mandate to love and to stand up against injustice.

    I believe that most gays are not even aware of the Ugandan bill–let alone the Ugandan culture and it’s religiosity.

    So do I. I think gays are largely unaware. Most of my gay friends did not know. I checked several of the leading gay papers, and most have nothing at all about this. have also written several times to the HRC and have gotten no response. I am becoming equally frustrated with their slowness.

  23. The slowness of some Christians (for example major conservative Christians groups) to respond to the Uganda situation tends to reinforce the misperception of all Christians. Who is calling for death, life imprisonment and turning gays in? Not atheists. Or gay activists.

    Actually, I believe this comment to be an example of the negativity I was referring to. ‘The slowness of some Christians’–we judge it and yet we don’t judge the thousands of gays who haven’t spoken up against the death penalty…Ann pointed out that the Human Rights Campaign hasn’t spoken up…yet it’s the Christians whose slowness we note and proclaim. And, in case you didn’t catch the negative intent, let’s specify a target group ‘for example major conservative Christian groups’. But there’s more, ‘who is calling for death, life imprisonment and turning gays in? Not atheists. Or gay activists.’ So true…but neither are American Christians of any stripe (except perhaps Fred Phelps).

    A further aspect of the negativity is manufacturing a situation that doesn’t exist. This slowness to respond to the Ugandan situation is presented as a reason why many gays still have a distaste and mistrust for Christians. I believe that most gays are not even aware of the Ugandan bill–let alone the Ugandan culture and it’s religiosity…so the issue of the slowness of American Christians to respond would be far, very far from consideration. (I invite those of you who will be mixing with gays this weekend to ask a simple question: ‘What do you think of the Ugandan situation?’ Please, don’t change the wording…don’t say ‘the Ugandan anti-homosexuality bill’…that would be leading. Just ask that question and then honestly report all the responses you receive.)

    (Note: be prepared to supply them the facebook link to the group. If they aren’t already involved, perhaps that question will lead them to an awareness.)

  24. Why do they still think of ALL Christians as judgemental and hateful? It reminds me of something I learned in customer service. You can provide consistently good, even exceptional, customer service for years–but its that one experience of bad service that the customer will remember…that the customer will talk about.

    I think that is probably it. Even after overt persecution ends, the persecuted tend to remember it. It takes a lot time and a lot of effort to undo the damage. The slowness of some Christians (for example major conservative Christians groups) to respond to the Uganda situation tends to reinforce the misperception of all Christians. Who is calling for death, life imprisonment and turning gays in? Not atheists. Or gay activists.

  25. I agree, the new Mary needs to make a slight adaptation to her screen name since ‘our Mary’ already has dibs on just plain Mary.

    I was musing this morning re the negative perception of Christianity/Christians. It seems ironic that gays ask us not to judge them all by the words or actions of a few (or even many) who are visible. So, while we Christians have the likes of Fred Phelps bringing shame to our image, the gays have NAMBLA to contend with. (Both sides have more unsavory examples, by the way.)

    It seems the key for all of us might be a truly open mind…one that looks beyond the hype, behind the media sound bites…and actually takes a thorough and honest look at the other.

    I, personally, haven’t heard the word ‘abomination’ used from a pulpit in a long, long time. Haven’t heard the Sodom and Gomorrah in quite a while either. It makes me wonder if the references to those references aren’t based in ‘ancient history’ and, more troubling, by those who constantly remind us that those references were once in common use.

    As humans, we all need the daily reminder to ‘accentuate the positive’ because it’s our nature to focus on the negative. I think of those gays Michael spoke of who have such a negative view of Christians. Have they had their heads in the sand when story after story of mainline denominations becoming ‘accepting and affirming’…or ordaining gays…reached the presses? Why do they still think of ALL Christians as judgemental and hateful?

    It reminds me of something I learned in customer service. You can provide consistently good, even exceptional, customer service for years–but its that one experience of bad service that the customer will remember…that the customer will talk about. After learning that, I’ve made a conscious effort to note–and to commend–good and exceptional service when I experience it. I’ve made a point of mentioning the good that I see to others.

    The stronghold of negative focus is indeed a stronghold but it is not invincible. The efforts to bring that stronghold down are the responsibility of each one of us. When it comes to the impact that that stronghold has had on the gay community, we need to ramp up our efforts. Gays who are rejecting Christians are likely to be rejecting Christ as well…and that rejection bears eternal consequences.

  26. Just to clarify, the Mary who has written at 5:40 pm is not the usual Mary (or me) I should say.

    Thank God. I knew something wasn’t right. Otherwise, we’d have had to believe you’d “snapped” and become a blogging jihadist.

    Don’t know if the other Mary is still around. If you are, it would be good of you to come back with a slight variation on your name since our Mary kinda has dibs on plain Mary.

    Of course, there are Christians out there acting unChristian. And any of us is quite capable of it as we all carry the effects of original sin, i.e., two natures. But these folks do not represent Christendom or Christ. And those who look to Old Covenant “precepts” apparently are ignorant of Christ’s presence throughout the Bible. Or that the New Covenant sealed with his shed blood puts the Old in its proper perspective.

    And yes, we are to have no stones in our pockets.

  27. Warren,

    You can’t blame her. She was taught incorrectly and has not adjusted her biblical learning to incorporate the teachings of Christ. Give her a chance to be ministered to. Lest we “virtually stone” her. We all have erred.

  28. @Debbie:

    Yes, I was referring to the genocidal precepts of Christianity, which of course derive from both the Old and New Testaments. The former explicitly condones genocide based on tribal membership (ex. Amalekites, Midianites) and advocates the murder of gay people (Lev. 20). So to the extent that self-identified Christians like Mr. Throckmorton stand opposed to the mass executions of gay people, he and they are deviating from Biblical standards.

    I think you all should embrace the statutes of your God as set forth in the holy and infallible Bible. Don’t run away from them or pretend that they don’t exist. You’ll quickly discover that the executioners in Uganda are truly your brothers in Christ.

  29. I thought there might be another Mary. 🙂

    Please forgive me. I do not mean to beat up on Christians. Much of the criticism and animosity aimed at them is unfair. But some of it is earned.

    I wear my cross when I go to the local gay bars — sometimes a guy will ask if I am “a chaplain or something”. I explain, no, just a Christian. Sometimes,the response is positive, They make a kind remark or share their own faith. Another gay Christian. Cool.

    But sometimes, often, the response is icy — even angry. “How can you be gay and Christian?” they ask. “Christianity is against gays and equal rights.” I try to explain that not all Christians are like that — in fact, that most are not — that they are kind, gracious people.

    “Not the ones I know.”

    I share the Good News. They are God’s own child. He is calling them. I have had the honor of leading some to Chist. First, though, we had to spend some time getting past their belief that God hated them and the Christians did too.

  30. I do not mean my agreement with Mary as a broad-brush condemnation of Christianity. I am a Christian. I believe the Bible. I believe most Bible-believing Christians intend to treat others the way they would be treated — demonstrating the love and grace of God.

    But I think there is a progression of thinking — a message that resonates with the fearful and hateful. Abomination. Worthy of death. Two cities destroyed. Agendas. Threat to the marriage and the family. Responsible for AIDS. Worse threat than terrorism. Criminalize it. Punish the offenders.

    I think this message, which tends to get the most pubicity due to the lunatic, fundamentalist fringe, sometimes (often) over-shadows the repemptive message of the Gospel. And, although perhaps unfairly, “Christians” get bad rap. Ask your average gay person what they think “Christians” feel about them. The remarks are rarely complementary.

    It’s why conservative, Evangelical Christians need to make their message crystal clear. They are not part of the fearful or hateful. They stand against injustice. When confronted with sinners caught in the very act, they put stones down.

  31. I think you really nailed that, Mary

    .

    You have got to be kidding. “The logical and inevitable result of true Christianity” … “genocidal precepts of the religion” (would that also be Christianity?).

  32. The debate in Uganda over whether to exterminate gays or simply incarcerate them for life is the logical and inevitable result of true Christianity. These people are only following Leviticus 20. That verse, in contrast to those dealing with dietary and dress rules, is widely considered binding moral law and is often cited as one of several verses that establishes Biblical condemnation of homosexuality. But American Christians leave off or conveniently forget the requisite punishment. The Ugandans are simply fulfilling the genocidal precepts of the religion.

    If it were more socially acceptable, I have no doubt that many Christians would support the implementation of the death penalty here. In the 1990s, Christian heavyweights like James Dobson opposed the repeal of sodomy laws, at least one of which allowed for a life sentence and many others of which allowed for potential sentences of up to 20 years. That is no so different from the “moderate” side of the debate in Uganda.

  33. That’s the shorthand (or backhand), half-truth way TWO (note the irony in the use of the word truth) tends to handle things

    I think it is more than “tends” – more like a way of life. When the boy cried “wolf” again, no one found the cry credible enough to respond.

  34. Uganda’s vow to exterminate HIV-positive Ugandans and to imprison friends and families of LGBT Ugandans

    That’s the shorthand (or backhand), half-truth way TWO (note the irony in the use of the word truth) tends to handle things. There is a contingent of folks opposed to the bill who are trying to say Uganda wants to execute people just for being gay.

    Nevertheless, some good points are being made about the problems the bill would generate, if passed, in the HIV-positive community across the board. I can well imagine even straight folks ceasing to show up at clinics for treatment of HIV/AIDS for fear of being thought to be gay. Uganda’s previously successful programs to prevent HIV will end up in shambles. They are shooting themselves in the foot while trying to morally save face somehow. And, as Michael points out, there is no small measure of hypocrisy and apparent blindness to some of their other crimes of moral turpitude, including those that also contribute to the HIV crisis.

    Of course, this blindness is a common theme the world over. Look right here at home. Our churches are culprits all too often.

  35. Thanks for the copy of the bill. Actually, I was highlighting the slight ‘spin’ that is going on…how Mike Airhart’s words didn’t quite paint an accurate picture.

    Would be nice if they took out the death penallty, and the extraterritorial provisions, and the life sentences, and the reporting requirements. It is not reasonable to criminilize homosexuality or to imprison folks who won’t report them.

    I agree completely.

  36. Why focus on homosexuality at all? Since pornography, sexual assault and child abuse are such big problems there, why not just toughen and enforce those laws? That would seem more reasonable and more in line with their constitution.

  37. Here is a copy of the bill for further reading. It should answer your questions. My understanding is that the Bill has been tabled. I am not aware of any new provisions.

    /wp-content/uploads/2009/10/anti-homosexuality-bill-2009.pdf

    Would be nice if they took out the death penallty, and the extraterritorial provisions, and the life sentences, and the reporting requirements. It is not reasonable to criminilize homosexuality or to imprison folks who won’t report them.

  38. In a link from Truth Wins Out that popped up on my facebook (I guess courtesy of having ‘friended’ Warren) I was struck by this snippet:

    Uganda’s vow to exterminate HIV-positive Ugandans and to imprison friends and families of LGBT Ugandans

    1) I wasn’t aware that HIV-positive status was a punishable by death offense; I thought it was an HIV-positive person who continued to have sex that fit into that ‘aggravated’ category. Did I misread the bill? Or is there talk that somehow the bill is a first step towards punishing HIV-positive status itself?

    2) Does that reference apply only to HIV-positive homosexuals or does it apply to anyone who is HIV-positive? (The bill has been labelled the ‘anti-homosexuality bill’ so I wonder if their regard for HIV-positive heteros differs.)

    3) And I suspect that the imprisoning of friends and families of LGBT Ugandans refers to the part of the proposed bill that demands ‘reporting’ of anyone you know to be homosexual. I’ve been out of these dialogues for a few days, is this what the comment refers to or has something more strict been introduced?

    4) I missed any reference in the bill to the T of LGBT. I can see how we can assume it’s addressed but I don’t recall transsexuals being addressed. Are they addressed specifically or is the assumption that they are a part of ‘homosexuals’?

    I appreciate the Ugandan church voices that are against the death penalty. That is a start towards a more reasoned approach.

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