Picking up the narrative on the new book from Joseph Nicolosi, Shame and attachment loss: The practical work of reparative therapy, I want to focus on the family dynamics Nicolosi proposes to be at the source of male homosexuality. There are two basic types of family soil which Nicolosi believes grows some same-sex love: the “classic-triadic family” and the “narcissistic family.” If you are looking for the “relatively-normal-often-happy family” in this book, you won’t find it. According to Nicolosi, they don’t produce same-sex attracted men.
In the classic triadic family, the boy “experiences the father as an unsafe/unworthy object of identification,” mothers are “over-involved, intrusive, possessive and controlling,” and the sons are “temperamentally sensitive, timid, passive, introverted, artistic (!), and imaginative.” The result is that the mother and father do not have a good relationship, the father is distant and/or hostile with the son, the son avoids masculine play, the father fails to bring out the son’s masculinity, the mother smothers the boy and robs him of his assertion.
The narcissistic family is worse, it seems to me. The parents are more into themselves than the children. The family is invested in looking good to the world but has many family secrets which must be protected at all costs. I could say more about this family but I will save that for another post. What I want to get to is Nicolosi’s concept of “shared delight.” He says same-sex attracted males didn’t have any of that with their fathers. In a section with the heading, “The ‘Delight-Deprived’ Boy,” Nicolosi expounds on the experiences he says same-sex attracted males missed.
In my search for the particular quality of father-son bonding that is fundamental to the development of the boy’s masculine identity, I have been led to what I call a “shared delight.” I am convinced that the healthy development of masculine identification depends on this phenomenon. This special emotional exchange should be between the boy and his father, although a father figure or grandfather may serve the purpose where no father is available. It is not a single event or one-time occurrence, but should characterize the relationship.
This particular style of emotional attunement is especially important during the critical time of gender identification. Homosexual men rarely if ever recall father-son interaction that includes activities that they both enjoy together. In this vital experience father and son share in the enjoyment (“delight”) in the boy’s success. (p.52).
Nicolosi then declares that homosexual men have great difficulty recalling childhood father-son times which were fun and exciting and which included success for the son. He stacks the deck a bit in favor of his thesis here by saying that gay men infrequently remember being coached by their fathers in an activity that “involves bodily activity or strength.” I say he stacks the deck because he is no doubt aware of research which finds a strong correlation between childhood gender nonconformity and adult homosexuality. While not true of all gay males, many do not remember such activities because neither father nor son liked those activities. And where dad did like them and son did not, it is often a sign of sensitivity that the dad did not force the son to pursue a sport for which the son has no interest or aptitude. An aspect of what Nicolosi defines as “shared delight” sounds like having fun playing sports or active games together.
He then gives an excerpt of Malcolm Muggeridge’s autobiography where he describes going to his father’s office.
When he saw me, his face always lit up, as it had a way of doing, quite suddenly, thereby completely altering his appearance; transforming him from a rather cavernous, shrunken man into someone boyish and ardent. He would leap agilely off his stool, wave gaily to his colleague…and we would make off together. There was always about these excursions an element of being on an illicit spree, which greatly added to their pleasure. They were the most enjoyable episodes in all my childhood. (Wolfe, 2003, p.26).
He then contrasts this depiction of father-son bliss with clinical tales of clients who were not delighted with their fathers.
When I read this section, I was reminded of stories my clients have told me about their fathers over the years. Most of those clients were straight, and many of those stories were sad and empty. People do benefit when they feel approved by their fathers and indeed people with clinical concerns often relate pain from their upbringing. Here again, Nicolosi seems to be oblivious to the fact that his clients are unhappy and experiencing various problems which bring them to counseling. That these men fail to remember happy office visits may not say anything generalizable to all gay men.
Then I also thought of an email exchange I had with a gay man who wanted to understand my positions on various issues related to sexual orientation. The man is well educated and was raised in the Catholic church. He also sought reparative therapy for several years in an effort to reverse his homosexuality. He eventually determined the effort was futile and accepted that he was attracted to the same sex and worked toward a resolution within his faith. I asked him what he remembered about his father and he wrote:
My father was probably one of the most honest men I ever knew. Being Italian, FAMILY was important and he showed his love by making sure that we did things as a family. We ate dinner together always and took many educational vacations. Dad was very handy with his hands and could fix almost anything around the house that “broke.” I often helped him when he needed a “third” hand. He was intelligent and hardworking. When I was young, he tried very hard to get me interested in sports and other traditionally “masculine” activities, etc., but I just wasn’t interested. So…what I was able to give him — something that he also valued — was being good in my studies, ultimately obtaining my Ph.D. He was very proud of me. When my mother was so rigid in her religious beliefs that she was not able to accept me as a “gay son,” it was my dear father who told me he loved me and who kept the family together.
Does this sound like a distant father and son? It is clear that this man loves his dad, knows his dad loved him and was proud of him and viewed him as a salient father. If we are to believe adult recollections as Nicolosi does when they come from unhappy men, then what keeps us from believing this man? If the reparative therapist complains that this man is in denial, I will respond that reparative therapist’s clients have been indoctrinated. Or perhaps a more neutral response would be to say that the therapist’s clients are correct and so is my email friend. In which case, perhaps “shared delight” is a feature of the child development of many fortunate boys, gay and straight, but has little, if anything, to do with eventual sexual attractions.
I emphasize attractions here because I do think a poor relationship with father could affect self-control and thus influence a person to gravitate to a more behaviorally promiscuous life, whether gay or straight. I also wonder if some men are so damaged by their fathers that they respond to any kindness and their sexual responses are guided and shaped by their emotional hunger. Although it is possible that father-deprived males compose some important share of the caseload at Nicolosi’s Thomas Aquinas Psychological Services, I do not believe the lion’s share of gay males who are not in therapy would describe their lives this way.
In fact, father-son estrangement is as universal as fathers and sons. Books and movies (note this website with this theme in 25 movies) use this theme constantly as it tugs at the experience of so many men, gay or straight. For a description of this estrangement from a straight male, see this book (I Thought We’d Never Speak Again) and especially the story of Paul Howerton (“There was nothing about his father that Paul wanted to emulate…”).
The next post will address more of the father-son issues raised by Nicolosi’s book and discuss the concerns I have about Christian groups ratifying them uncritically.
Related post:
Shame and Attachment Loss: Going from bad to worse
Also read Fathers, Sons and Homosexuality for a father’s view of the reparative thesis.
That sounds about right to me. Having been raised in a physically and occasionally sexually abusive narcissistic environment, going through childhood GID and SSA, I’ve wondered if SSA in abused men is an attempt at repairing a developmental deficit. The SSA caused me to want to be around guys, doing masculine things with guys made me lose my GID.
I agree with you that traumatic cases cannot be generalized to all cases of male SSA.
for the record, I’ve never shared any kind of delight with my father. Ever. I am convinced this has bearing on a lot of things in my life, but it has done nothing to make me straight or gay. I am straight, and I don’t think about my resentment for my father when I indulge in sexual pleasure. I think that would kind of get in the way.
Jon – I didn’t read your entire post when I approved it and would have approved it anyway, but ask you to go easy on the language in future comments.
Also, you apparently think I am placating APA (maybe the new rumor floating around ex-gay circles, about which no one has come to me about) with SIT. Incorrect on that theory. SIT is an effort to honor the dignity of all people and honor the research on homosexuality — we don’t know what causes homosexuality and categorical change is rare in research anyway and that is what we have to go on.
RE: your therapy, if your therapist gave you the informed consent we require in SIT which includes a caution that change is infrequent, it could be consistent with SIT. I could look at what you wrote and explain it from another perspective (behavioral) than the psychodynamic one but if you are happy with the results then I would not discount them. Change could happen in SIT but it would be a function of each person’s experience and not something that the framework seeks.
My comments about the groups you mentioned have to do with calling them to honest presentations of research and experience. Some people are hurt by reparative therapy presentations and theories and it is all preventable without compromising any theological beliefs. When NARTH lies in press releases and misleads reporters, you have to ask why do that? Apparently, however, I don’t see many among evangelicals who care about that.
Regarding Nicolosi’s book, I have another post coming that will discuss the various caveats Nicolosi offers regarding mothers, temperament. It is actually quite confusing. He says things which are hard to reconcile with each other. He offers a kind of temperamental explanation but one needs the gender or self deficit to activate SSA. The mother may create the fertile ground for a father wound but the father could rescue the pre-SSA boy from a bad mom, or a feminine temperament if he is salient. Jon, do you read Nicolosi’s book to say that a boy could become gay if he had a strong and compassionate father? If so, please point it out. I recognize that he believes that gay men can be more screwed up if they have smother mothers and feminine temperaments but can they be gay with just those two components?
Jon, you used a colorful phrase — I’ll let you figure out which one it was — I certainly would not expect someone who identifies as working in ex-gay or any ministry to use. Maybe it comes from working with men who feel the need to talk like they’re in a locker room. Sometimes the women in my SSA group get a little “real” in their speech, too.
As one who also went through a year of therapy for SSA, I do think you have a valid question for Warren. And you’re a guy, unless you’re being even more anonymous, so people may actually listen to you.
Were you possibly a victim of childhood sexual abuse by a woman, if you don’t mind my asking?
I have observed Warren’s blog a long time… it has given me a lot insights… I work in ex-gay ministry and have been helped a lot especially by Nicolosi’s views… I think his new book is excellent and very helpful but if you read chapters 2-3 you would not say as Warren says that Nicolosi is again giving you the explanation of “bad father as the cause of homosexuality”. He describes how a relationship with a mother and temperament of a boy is the backround why the father issue is so critical. So I see Warren’s comments in his blog about NARTH, Nicolosi and Exodus as a way to get approval of APA in this debate and being not labeled as a “bad guy” like Nicolosi. I wait Warren’s critical evaluation about APA report and not just lick their ass because they are very positive about SIT. And about SIT… I would like to ask Warren would reorientation: I was 3 years in psychotherapy… the therapist sayd he can’t promise the change but he was positive that it MAY happen because he had seen some clients… so we were talking about the real relationships with men and women… dealing also my past… and he used imagination just describing a horny woman and asked how I would feel about her… the first reaction was vomiting and we discussed about it but these kind of excerces helped to feel neutral about wome’s sexuality and when I started to date with a girl I didn’t feel “it was like my mother” but I was able to enjoy… he was talking positively what is it all about being a man and how to evaluate women… he had gay clients and respectem them also… when I felt I canät give up having sex with guys and it would be easier if I would turn to gay life style he was not defensive but helped to avoid the contrast gay-straight… The result was I was able to date with women and had my first heterosexual feelings…. The question to Warren: have I been in SIT or in reorientation therapy? Is there ANY possibility that heterosexual feelings and dating would be a result in SIT?
Warren,
discussing Nicolosi’s ideas we ought to begin with what Karl Popper would call the “truth content” in them. And therefore we always must begin with the phenomenon and go from there to the explanation.
What’s the phenomenon? There are homosexual men who have themselves fucked by “real men” just in order to get in contact or even to get accepted by those “real men”. Those homosexual men will go to considerable length to get the contact and the acceptance they long for.
What’s the explanation? They obviously lack male bonding, and – as in our culture
male bonding lies firstmost in the father’s responsibility – the father is the next one to blame (quite correctly or cruelly wrong).
Exacltly, Warren! I don’t think there is anything you can say about “ex-gays” or “gays” (open or active) that is true of all of them — except that they all have SSA.
How SSA persons view life and live life will vary according to the individual — and how one “identifies” and how one actually lives can be two entirely different things.
PS – If perception was an issue, what about my email friend who is as gay as one can be and perceived his father as being a salient (strong and loving) man?
Over the years, I have worked with many who said to me that their dads were better than their straight friends dads. Moms too. Nicolosi has no room in his model for parents who are human but doing well.
Mary, it is quite possible to discuss causation without discussing life choices. You just have to decide to do it.
This is really simple. Some people are gay and republican and Christian and celibate and moral and so on and some people are straight and all those things too. This is the point I hear Jay and Michael making. I not completely clear what point you are making except that gay people think about sex with the same sex and ex-gays might think about sex with both sexes at different times and some ex-gays especially women think about the opposite sex more or exclusively.
Now see, I just went off and talked about lifestyle and did not mention causes once.
Now I will talk about causes. The topic of perception is a recurring one. Perhaps the child has a wonderful set of parents who do none of the things Nicolosi associates with homosexual development but the child perceives it so. I would say then that there must be a homosexualitygenic temperament then that causes a person to perceive love as hate and attachment behaviors as rejection. This would be a violation of human nature in a way since we are built for attachment and our brains are wired to respond to attachment behaviors of adults. I am not saying two events cannot be viewed differently but the amount of misperception that would be needed to get human sexuality away off the reproduction track seem massive.
Parents reading these theories come to me in horror that the business trip taken when Jonny was 4 turned him gay. They search for these things because the overall quality of the relationship was excellent on both accounts. This theory causes people to be hyperobsessive reviewing every straight crevice of their lives to find the critical event.
See how one can stay on track or not, depending on what one chooses to write about?
I am not going into the sandbox with you folks right now, but rather I will refer you to this, FWIW:
An Inconvenient Truth
It entails several layers of serious reading, for those who care.
Maybe if you said “actively gay” instead of “openly gay,” it would be a different discussion. Openly gay, to me, simply means that people use the term “gay” to describe themselves. Actively gay means that they are having homosexual sex. An openly gay person can be celibate and can even be an orthodox Christian (like myself), and thus be part of the ex-gay community. An actively gay person, obviously, can’t be considered celibate and likely won’t be a part of an ex-gay community.
Mary, I’m not Jayhuck. Just wanted to make that clear. Although I do know Jayhuck and he’s a nice guy.
And Mary, I think you saying that Michael’s (or my) gayness is in every crevice of our lives is just as hurtful as me calling your proclaimed heterosexuality misleading. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it. Calling someone’s responses misleading in a debate isn’t a personal attack, by the way. It’s simply a comment on whether or not there are logical gaps or inconsistencies in their arguments. And I thought that there were some in yours. Sorry if you were offended, but I stand by what I said.
It’s online after all. It’s unreasonable for people to get too bent out of shape over what someone else who they will never meet has said online. I was never really upset about anything. I just think that I’m right. I don’t see how a single word can affect how one lives their life. I live like several other ex-gays despite the fact that I call myself “gay,” because for me, “ex-gay” and “gay” mean largely the same thing.
What strikes me as odd, is how can we discuss ANY theory on the development of SSA or OSA when a person gets challenged on the very basic idea that ex gays do not live the same as openly gay people.
If there are theories into our development, then those who have walked through or traversed that “bridge” are being stifled at every turn to not discuss the very obvious that gays and ex gays live and view life differently.
Amazing.
Regarding the posts that are off topic – this is exactly why it might be better to talk about topics rather than each other personally. Accusing each other of lying creates an unsafe place to share personal realities. It is also hurtful. Really no different from playground bullying. I have purposefully never talked in any detail about myself as I somehow knew the emphasis would be to direct comments toward that, complete with personal assumptions and opinions, rather than the very important topics and subjects Dr. Throckmorton puts up for discussion.
Mary is not a liar nor is she misleading – she is also not responsible for how other people perceive what she says – they are. I have seen Jay rightfully be angry with, I think it was, Regan DuCassee, when she tried to tell him he was wrong for expressing his feelings and thoughts about himself – I believe the post was “My Hope”. I applauded Jay for his response as it addressed his personal beliefs and that no one had the right to encrouch upon them. Mary and everyone else deserves the same right without personal attacks.
You are insisting that we view life from the same perspective – just can’t be. It just isn’t.
I never said we didn’t have commonalities. But the differences are enough to move us through life very differently. Your gayness is in every crevice of your life.
Ex gays (over all – for the sake of Jay aka Jayhuck) do not live the same way as do openly active gays and lesbians. We just don’t.
I know you don’t understand. I know you don’t.
BTW, Mary, it’s the men IN the boots that excites me. Not the boots themselves. Hope you have a good night. Didn’t mean to be argumentative. I still think that gay Christians and ex-gay Christians are much more alike than different.
Mary. I don’t understand what you are asking. I have to admit that female sexuality is a complete mystery to me. I am convinced that it must be more fluid for women than for men.
Michael,
Think of it this way – if we saw things similarly – wouldn’t you be straight, too?
Michael,
Then can you explain my increased libido?
And we were talking about gay people who identify as gay and live openly as gay – although it was a generalization, I admit. But gay people do see through a different lense. It just is.
Nope. Both are generalizations. And I thought you disliked such generalizations. People should not be labeled or categorized in such a way, right? You have said so yourself many, many times. Straights and gays are INDIVIDUALS.
BTW, I agree that Jay should not presume to know what your sexual attractions are. I think that some ex-gays do experience a decrease in sexual attractions over time. Many people do as they age. They may diminish to the point of being virtually non-existent — to the point of feeling more like memories than attractions.
Ann,
As I was writing my first parenthetical bit in my attempt to get back to the topic, temperament came to mind. There are some basic temperaments that would tend to be resilient even if a parent was emotionally distant and others that would feel it as a deep wound and take messages ‘to heart’ from the distance.
That scenario would fit with the first part of what I wrote but I think what might be key is to realize that nothing is as black and white as: distant father/blank slate child. Differences in temperament are a variable to be considered. The realization that the child is learning and perceiving ALL the time means that no child remains a blank slate for long. They are being influenced, sometimes shaped by all that they see and hear. And it’s not all Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street…sometimes it’s real people stuff…siblings, peers, neighbors, church…and often it’s media that isn’t so child-safe. Somehow we think of the parents always being there…of knowing pretty much everything that’s going on, of having a pretty good understanding of all that’s going into their child’s mind and spirit. But, the reality is that if he’s a working dad, he’s not around for 8 or 9 hours out of the child’s day and then has other adult responsibilities and needs that might bite into another chunk. In any event, when dad and child are together, that child isn’t a blank slate…they’ve got their new knowledge based on observation–whether for the good or the bad–that they bring with them.
Jay,
The next time I need advice on what I am feeling – I’ll be sure to inquire with you first.
Unbelievable.
Fair amount? I never said that. DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY WRITING THAT I DID NOT USE MYSELF. I said that I remember what it was like.
It would be unrealistic to think that someone would have spent an amount of time in their life as a lesbian and not remember, have thoughts, or knowledge of what it is like to be that way.
Jay – you sound like you just want to hear certain things. I can’t say that for you or for anyone else.
I wonder what my boyfriend would say to you?
I am not saying that Mary does not experience heterosexual feelings. I just said that to call herself a heterosexual when she also experiences a fair amount of same-sex attractions (which she admitted here) is misleading. And intentionally misleading people is another way to lie.
p.s.s. – Barnacles – I meant to say post, not thread and was referring to my last post.
p.s. – the above thread can apply to anything, not just ssa’s
Michael,
Gay people view life differently than heterosexual people. Get over it. Would it be easier if I turned it around and said – Heterosexual people seee things differently than gay people?
Like we don’t seek a sexual relationship with a person of our same gender?
Regrding the topic of this thread – doesn’t temperment have a lot to do with how we perceive the circumstances of our lives as children and how we take it all in and whether it becomes an enduring part of our lives? Otherwise, why are some so resilient and move through feelings, thoughts, and experiences while others seem to let them sink in and anchor themselves as a mindset?
Michael,
You’re just being argumentative.
I don’t look at men’s boots and get turned on. I don’t go to seek out places to go such as Palm Springs, a gay destination spot for vacation or R&R, and I am not turned on by men who do not enjoy women sexually. I don’t think about going to places where gay people tend to accumulate, etc.. etc..
By the way, I agree that it was totally unfair to call Mary a liar. I don’t think she is. She just has a very different way of seeing things than I might. That’s not a lie. That’s her real, individual experience. She is SSA — but not gay. I know that sounds contradictory, but gay means something to her that SSA does not.
That’s why I have said repeatedly that the question “Can gays change?” depends ENTIRELY on what you mean by “gay” and what you mean by “change”. The answer could be yes, no or maybe — depending completely on how you define those two words.
No. I don’t know that. That’s why I keep asking. I don’t know what you are talking about. How do “hetereosexual people” see things? I keep asking you HOW we are different and you say I already know. I am not playing dumb here, I really don’t.
NOPE. I would not agree. Tell me how you see men and I will tell you how I do. Betcha we are more alike than different
Michael,
Let’s pick something easy and obvious. We both like men. And yet, I’ll bet you see men from a very different perspective than I do. Wouldn’t you agree?
Michael,
I am not sayignn we don’t have things in common. But you know what I am talking about. Heterosexual people see things differently than openly gay people do. You know that.
Jay,
I respect you a lot and have for a long time. Having said that, I want to also say that what Mary says is not confusing to me at all – she make a lot of sense and I understand her.
Ouch – this hurts. I honestly don’t think you or anyone can judge Mary by your own criteria in this area. To say she is lying is, well, hurtful and a lie.
Mary, I have no doubt that the life you are living now is different from the life you were living then. But your life is not everyone’s life.
What I strongly object to is the implication that there is such a thing as “the gay life” or “the gay lifestyle”. How do lesbians live? How do gays live? How do ex-gays and ex-lesbians live? Can you make generalizations?
The fact is, there are many “lives” and “lifestyles”– and some of my “openly gay” friends live lives that are more UNLIKE mine than LIKE it. In fact, you and I probably have more in common than I do with them.
Jay,
You have misread what I wrote. You seem very upset. My story is my story. I am speaking of my experiences and the experiences of many of my ex gay friends. I was not speaking for you.
And I take offense at your name calling. You might want to do some re-reading and contemplating what I wrote and see if there is a way that it could make sense to someone other than you and your experiences.
Michael,
I was in the life for a long time. It is different. I’m not one of those conservative christians who never experienced a different life. I know that living gay is different.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN FAMILY, FRIENDS, GARDENING ETC…..
You know it is different and everyone here knows that living as an openly gay person is viewing life through a different lense.
That makes totally no sense. And don’t speak for ex-gays here. Judging by your comments here, I think I see life through a very different lens than you do, despite our similar views about homosexual behavior. I’m also going to go ahead and say that I think my lens is a lot more rational and makes more sense than yours does, because yours seems to be causing quite a bit of confusion here, when, really, there shouldn’t be any.
And please, I don’t care what you call yourself, but if you still experience SSA, then don’t be dishonest and say that you are a heterosexual. That’s lying, and that’s a sin, Mary.
OK. I get that. We do see probably things differently — but live life so differently? I don’t think so.
I strongly believe that if you really looked at the way we actually live our lives — how we spend our time, what matters to us, our feelings for loved ones, friends, God and family, our hobbies, our likes, our dislikes, our morals, our faith, our values — that we “gay-identified” folks and you “ex-gay identified” folks are more ALIKE than DIFFERENT.
After all, we (gay and ex-gay) are all SSA. We have that important difference, that “lens” in common — and that probably means that we experience life much more like each other… and more differently than OSA folks.
Michael – you are making this sound like I am saying gay people are just different and therefore less than valuable.
I am saying that for the most part ex gays see and live a life through a different lense than do you. It’s that simple.
We see the glass through a different lense – of course it is difficult for you to understand. We don’t usually see homosexuality as the design. It is not normal to ex gays. It does not thrive in our lives.
Mary, I still do not understand what you mean when you say that “People who do not identify as gay don’t live as gay people.”
How do you suppose that gay people live? How do you live? Do mean having gay sex? Do you mean calling ourselves gay?
How do mean that “we” live differently than “you”? I would really like to know how you imagine that the way we live is so different from the way you do.
Timothy,
Don’t you think a lot of us have gone through enough wars over who has the right interpretation of the bible. Suffice to say we see things differently? I wouldn’t call my life nor yours false and futile.
Jay,
I experienced lesbianism for over a decade. It was in my life and then went away but not to the extent that I was all of a sudden attracted to and dating men. Years later I became a Christian and the SSA feelings started to come into my life again and so I sought counseling. Since then I have come to realize that those thoughts, memories, don’t really go away. We add to our experiences and don’t take away from our lives.
I don’t consider myself SSA and consider myself ex gay and heterosexual. Although, I can remember what it was like to be gay.
Timothy,
And I, of course, disagree. All you have to do is change ‘ex-gays’ to ‘gays’ in your lead sentence and I could render a hearty “Right back at ya!”.
But, actually, I was trying to get back on topic…I see we both agree on the existence of Satan and on his capacity and desire to deceive and ensnare…so at least we have some common ground.
I’m confused. Aren’t you an SSA woman, Mary?
For example, I’m a Christian man who is celibate because of my faith but I don’t care if someone calls me “gay” or “SSA,” because I believe the two are the same thing. Heterosexuality doesn’t fill the crevices of my life because I don’t experience it. Homosexuality doesn’t fill the crevices either, although because of my SSA it’s present. I’ll be honest, your whole line of reasoning here is just very, very confusing.
Good. Then you will be perfectly ok with my belief that Satan has ensnared the minds of ex-gays and led them astray from the path that God had laid out before them. He’s deceived them into being confounded by misapplied and misappropriated scripture (as he tried to do with Christ) and into tying their lives up in futility and false direction. But God can redeem them, buy them back and bring them again into his righteousness. I’ve seen it happen time and again.
Eddy,
I can see many scenarios that could move a young man or woman into SSA or OSA feelings. It’s really a personal issue that I think defies one answer.
I too believe Satan has many strategies for decieving. And Satan is for real.
Now Michael – here’s the next step.
People who do not identify as gay don’t live as gay people. That’s all I was saying. Nothing more – nothing less.
LOL…computer weirded out on me. The barely begun sentence was to be: Many, IMHO, sensed their difference, often non-sexual (sensitivity, bookishness, non-aggressiveness, feelings oriented, non-competitive) to be the reason for the emotional distance and, when they found themselves craving same gender affection and attention, concluded that the difference was that they were gay.
My personal opinion is that Satan isn’t a fairy tale…that our redemption itself says that we were ‘redeemed’…we were ‘bought back’. This real Satan is a master deceiver and isn’t limited to one strategy to ensnare a person. That being said, though, the emotionally distant father/sensitivity oriented son does seem to be the favored strategy.
Michael,
Would it help you to see it this way? Hetersexuality lives in the crevices of my life. You are going to fold back the corners and discover that my life revolves around heterosexuality, heterosexual roles, etc…
Timothy,
Of course I can’t support it. It’s a theory. But just think about what “gender non-conformity” is – really? gender roles are social constructs. And if you blindfolded someone then without them knowing a thing you can stimualte their bodies in a sexual manner. I see as just that simple.
I think people for the most part are sexual, desire closeness with another person, and develop likes and dislikes over time. The pavlovian example that you see is far too simple. I see something more like a girl or boy having a positive experience with someone and somehow that gets associated with sexual arousal. Of course society doesn’t (for the most part) support this if it is associated with one’s same gender but in that very instant something happened. Yes, some of it is biological – of course – but I just don’t think it is all biological. And depending on the individual and circumstances etc… it may develop into one side of the spectrum or the other.
The swirl thing doesn’t hold up 100 percent of the time, neither do any of the twins studies etc.. etc..
Great idea, Tim. I was relieved to find that I was actually commenting on topic while the other posters were.
Before the detour (Scroll up to where Peter Ould and Jack joined in) Peter’s one comment spurred Warren to ask:
I’m not sure that we ever mulled over that one. My thinking is that we have to consider the uniqueness of each individual and of the other components in their lives. (It’s why I have troubles with Nicolosi’s model…he puts all the eggs in one baset.) If you have an emotionally distant father but the child isn’t feeling the impact of that deficit because they are getting their identity stoked some other way…that could explain why one child feels the impact and another doesn’t. No two sets of circumstances are ever exactly identical. Conversely, a child who is in need of emotional closeness and doesn’t get it can wind up with a sense of deficiency. Does it always turn out gay? I don’t think so. As I mentioned earlier, some could seek to medicate or to hide the deficiency through other means. On the side that we consider legitimate, there would be workaholics, overachievers, super athletes. (NO. Not all people in these categories are there because they’re medicating or hiding a deficiency…but some are.) On the other side, we have people who might lose themselves in addictive behavior such as gambling, drugs, drinking to excess or sexual promiscuity. (In this case, MANY are there because they are medicating or hiding some deficiency…not so sure how often it would be an emotionally distant father.) My personal hunch is that, for many gay people, there was a sense of emotional distance from the father coupled with a sense of ‘otherness’ from the societal male image. Man
OK, I am curious, you have made this assertion before. In what ways? I understand that you think “gay” is “trained” and not innate, but how do you imagine our lives are different?
What do you see as the major differences in the way “a gay man” lives his life compared to the way an “ex-gay man” lives his? Could you give some specific examples?
How are the lives of us who are SSA (and call ourselves “gay”) different from the lives of those who are also SSA, but who call themselves “ex-gay”? What’s the difference in how we actually live?
Mary,
At the risk of annoying Eddy by diverging off topic for a moment (though the etiology of orientation does seem relevant to reparative therapy and father-son estrangement), I don’t think that your assumption can be supported.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that supports sexual orientation as a pavlovian or otherwise trained response.
As best we know, orientation is often closely linked to childhood gender nonconformity. Often at early ages. And in no few instances in which a reward/punishment system would have strongly encouraged conformity. It would appear that for those children, sexual orientation – or at least its earliest signs – would be counter-pavlovian.
And then there’s all those biological differences – which by this point are becoming hard to ignore. Surely we don’t think that hair whorl patterns are coincidental or, even less likely, that they were trained. Biology plays some part here.
No, I have to say that attractions and desires seem to be too resilient and to closely linked to biology to be other than innate (we can disagree over whether they are mutable). This seems to me to hold true whether society recognizes such attributes as a definition of a class of people (as it currently does) or whether it sees only behaviors.
I guess in some ways I can see “the gay community” in its current format as a social construct (in the same way that African American or Born Again Christian is a social construct), but a homosexual person seems to exist as such whether or not he has terms by which to identify.
Timothy,
What seems to be … is a statement that has gotten alot of us in trouble. I don’t think anything is what is seems to be. I’m sorry but gay or straight…. is just made up to me. You can get a body to respond and have a paplov experience to a stimulus. Really – just that simple only we don’t know where the triggers are connecting. We assume “it’s a natural thing” Well – be trained is a natural thing.
Good idea, Eddy.
You get right back on topic.
Pretty big IF there. “Exactly identical”…I only play ‘hypotheticals’ if there’s a remote chance of the hypothetical existing. Heck, even if you had identical twins marrying identical twins of the opposite sex, ‘exactly identical’ is a virtual impossibility. To suggest that a gay marriage is ‘exactly identical’ to a straight one is quite a stretch…and also very very very far removed from “Shame and Attachment Loss: Reparative Therapy and Father-Son Estrangement”.
How about we add ‘lifestyle’ and ‘gay community’ to the list of terms we’ll never quite agree on but need to find a way to deal with and then move back to “Shame and Attachment Loss: Reparative Therapy and Father-Son Estrangement”? I’m sure Warren wouldn’t mind if we got back on topic.
Mary,
I agree that marriage is, indeed, a social construct. It may, in fact, be the prime example of such.
However, the direction of innate desire does not seem to me to be arbitrary.
There are, undoubtedly, behaviors, attitudes, and perspectives associated with homosexuality or heterosexuality that are arbitrary. There are social perspectives that are unique only in the sense of culture and expectation.
But attractions and desires seem -at least for some – to be impervious to social definition or expectation and whether such is present or absent.
Marriage is a social construct, too. Being a wife or husband or adult household partner of another in a sexual relationship is a social construct. You’ve got living together, friends with benefits, boyfriends/gilrfriends etc… all social constructs. And gay and straight are not the same things. I even think of heterosexuality as a social construct (where as some would not see it that way)
Mary,
I’m not sure what you mean by “lifestyle”.
If Joe’s life is exactly identical to that of Jeff except that Joe’s spouse is male while Jeff’s is female, is Joe living a different “lifestyle” from Jeff?
I’m a man who is celibate because I believe that homosexual behavior is outside of God’s will. I also call myself gay. You could say that I “identify” as gay and you wouldn’t be wrong. Want to assume some things about my life, then, Mary?
Eddy,
You’re right on the money with your post. I was not suggesting a place of greater or lesser value – simply that those who do not identify as gay and still have SSA live a very different life than those who identify as gay. That’s all.
My life is very different from that of a gay man’s or a lesbian’s life. My focus is different and though I remember SSA thoughts and feelings, they do not seep into the corners of my life as a lifestyle.
Mary, I guess I did assume that you were suggesting or implying that the differences in our lives were superior or inferior — or more or less valid in some way — because we “identify” differently.
I should have said, “I can see how sexual identity, like all of the other aspects of my life, certainly permeates and is part of my being. I am sure that the awareness of my SSA and my idenification as gay leads me to view life and live life in ways that are probably different in some ways from your own experience,”
Mary made no value judgements so this question implies presumption on Michael’s part. She was only trying to make a point about identity…its significance…how pervasive it is.(I’m thinking she likely would have had further points to make building on this one but I don’t know that.) But she never said or even implied that hers was better…never implied that Michael’s was worse. Why do we constantly hear things that aren’t said and then demand answers for what we ‘thought they were saying’? The real question ought to be addressed to Michael: What made you think that Mary thought you were less decent, moral or caring? Maybe then we’ll get one clue to how the miscommunication prevails.
Mary. let me back up. You said:
OK. Looking at it again. You are right. My gender, my sexual orientation, my orientation, my sexual idenity — and all the other aspects of me — are “in every crevice of my life”. All of these things make up the “gestalt” that is me — or you.
I should have said, “You are right, Mary.” “People who identify differently must indeed live and experience life differently”. I am sure, now that I really think of it, that they do. How could one’s “identity” be separated from how one lives?
If one sees oneself as a cook, the person tends to cook. If they “idenitify” as a father, I would hope the behave like one. Things seem best — most whole, most healthy — when one’s “identity” is in harmony with one’s beliefs abd behavior. Discordance causes much emotional and spritual pain. I know.
I should have asked, “Mary, how do you imagine that my life, as a self-identified gay person, is different than yours? In what ways? What would you imagine are the major differences in how we live? Do you imagine that how you live is significantly different from how I live? Do you imagine that I am any less decent, or moral, or caring?”
I use the word “imagine” because we can never know for sure what another person’s life is like — we can only assume, guess — and sometimes our bets are misplaced.
Once again we’re immersed in Michael’s personal life…I’m going to step away until we’re done with that.
OK. That seems fair, but is that any different than any other person? We are always everything we are. Being male also is in every crevice. So is my faith. So is music. So are my hopes and fears. So is being over 55. So is having poor eyesight. Are YOU any different? What fills your crevices? And should I assume that I know how you live your life?
Another bad assumption on your part. Some think its is sin and some don’t. Some voted for gay marriage. Some actively opposed it. Real Christians differ on these issues.
They know because it was all over the news and in the papers when my best friend was murdered and I was also stabbed in the parking lot of a gay bar. They put two and two together and extended the love of Christ to me anyway — regardless of whether or not I was gay.
And, BTW, I think way too much has been made about my joking that I notice the “hotties” at the beach. Come on! Who doesn’t? The straight guys notice the girls. The girls (and gay guys) notice the guys. It’s natural to notice. I think Adam probably thought Eve was hot — and vice versa.
I think my Dad “noticed” my Mom at a college homecoming game. He thought she was a “cutie”. He thought she was a very attractive woman. I have seen pictures of her. She was hot. So was my Dad. She told me that she “noticed” him and how handsome and how phsyically fit he was. There was a mutual, initial, physical attraction — I am glad there was, or I would not have a daughter and grandson.
I was not suggesting that lust should become the new standard for thought or behavior. Do I have lustful thoughts sometimes? Yes, Jimmy Carter and I both admit it. “Noticing” or “admiring” can become something darker and life-consuming — always being on the “hunt” — only thinking of people as “things” for one’s own pleasure,
There is a difference (although some folks here seem to have difficulty with this idea) between finding someone “hot”, “cute”, “sexy” and wanting to possess and consume that person.
I was teasing because Eddy had mentioned, in a self-deisclosing and light-hearted way, that he still finds guys at the pool attractive — even though he prefers to watch the hawks circling overhead. I admired him for being honest like that. It made him more human. I don’t see anything wrong with Eddy noticing them — or me noticing them.
I like sitting on the beach sometimes, “watching the guys go by”. I was talking about the simple fact that people like to people-watch. It’s the old American past-time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVdDK5psRwo
Michael,
You missed the point and over exagerrated what I said. Again. I didn’t say filled every crevice I just said in every crevice. It doesn’t leave your life for a second. Not that everything about you is all gay but that in every part of your life there is your gayness – an inseparable part of your being.
And it is pretty clear that the church you attend does not actively believe that homosexuality is a sin. And if gay is not so important then why does EVERYONE at your church know you’re gay – and how do they know? Like I said – in the crevices.
Warren said:
Mary: The big mistake you make is assuming that because I am gay, “gayness” is the “be-all-and-end-all” of my life — filling every crevice of my thoughts and actions. Wrong. I agree with Warren and appreciate what he said.
To assume you know someone’s life based only on their sexual orientation, what labels they use, how they “identify” — or any other bit of information — is WAY out of line. I don’t do that to you. I would appreciate it if you did not do it to me — especially after all the comments you have made about not wanting to be dismissed or categorized based on how you “identify”.
FYI: I do not attend a “gay church” — or even a gay-affirming church. I have been to a “gay church” and didn’t like it. I want to be around a variety of Christian people — families, kids, teens, men, women, older people. About 2/3 of the people in my small church are elderly, widowed women.
I want to go to a church where people are welcome as people. Yes, some people at church know that I am gay — and love me any way. It’s not a gay thing. I go to church to worship, sing, listen and pray. Isn’t that what church is for?
FYI: I do not usually go to a “gay beach”. Specifically “gay” beaches have kind of died out. The beach I go to most often is Huntington Beach, “Surf City USA” — yes, there are “hotties” there, but that is not why I go. I go to get sun, swim, fly my kite, collect shells and pebbles, watch people surf and play volley ball, read my Bible under my umbrella.
FYI: I don’t have only “gay friends”. I would say about 2/3 of my friends are straight. Some are liberals. Some are conservatives. I voted to Obama, but most of my friends did not. Two of the gay couples I do have as friends are against gay marriage — even though they are committed gay couples. They think marriage should be between a man and a woman — only.
I know it’s hard for you to imagine, but I honestly don’t think about being gay most of the time. I honestly am too busy living and enjoying life. When I am with my daughter or grandson, I am thinking about them, worrying about my daughter’s eyesight, finances, catching up on the family news — enjoying watching my grandson taking his first steps, reading him books and playing Mr. Potato Head.
Mary, I don’t make any assumptions about how you live your life — please don’t make asssumptions about mine. Knowing that someone is “gay” or “ex-gay” tells you almost NOTHING about how that person actually lives. I am always aware that I am a gay man — but it is not the focus of my life and does not fill in every crevice.
Ann,
Thanks for the link. The subjects sound very intriguing. Unfortunately, my cable provider’s line-up doesn’t include the WE network.
Several years ago, I read an interesting article about vanishing twins and chimerism. I mentioned it to the biology teacher and he told me how common chimeric tissues are in certain animals– I think sheep and maybe cows are two of them I recall. He did mention that the phenomena is also observed in human tissue, that science discovered this when organ transplants became more common and tissues had to be typed.
Eddy,
Of course I was exaggerrating but at the same time you also clarified the point. Gay church, go the beach where the hotties are, etc… etc…
Ex gays that I know of don’t attend a gay affirming church, don’t go to the beach with the anticipation of looking at “hotties” , etc….etc…
Warren,
I’m cool with that just as long as the distinction is made. Although I do not agree with the APA of sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity – at least it serves the purpose of recognizing that there is a difference between the two sets of people.
Michael,
I don’t know how many times you have equated gay or SSA with the same value as being tall or short as if it is a built in part of an individual. So… while you may stamp and hem and haw all day that I don’t understand you or that you do not identify as gay and that you identify as Michael first, christian etc…. you always attribute gay to the same values as tall or short etc…
Ex gay is about not identifying as gay.
I recorded this and watched it over the weekend – it was really interesting and might contribute to this discussion. There are four separare stories that involve genetics and estrangement and bonding and attraction in humans.
Carole and Drowssap – I think both of you would find this very particularly interesting.
http://www.wetv.com/20-20/episodes/the-ties-that-bind-us
I am not sure who is outdoing whom on the assumption scale. But whatever, can we get away from assuming personal lives based on little bits of information. Mary, you don’t like it when people assume things about you so your saying that people who identify differently live differently is out of line.
Michael said:
The difference is personal meaning is very different than meanings which researchers are using. The purposes are different. On this blog, people are allowed to identify how they believe best fits them. I tire of the challenges to personal meanings. However, there is at the same time, no problem with clarifying what those personal meanings mean in another language. When someone says I have changed, I do not deny that something has changed. But if they same they are straight because God regards me as straight, I am not obligated to ignore their SSA. I cannot put them in the straight category when studying sexual arousal.
What I would like to see is an acceptance of these different levels of abstraction and simply live with this tension.
Mary’s suggestion was that gay is in every crevice of your life…a statement that is obviously hyperbolic but so is the response. Let’s take that last quote first.
As a Christian. Is gay in that crevice? How important was it/is it that your church is gay accepting/affirming? SSA is in that crevice.
As a father. How did your SSA impact that relationship? The time spent over the years with your child? Lots of people, due to jobs and other reasons, don’t get to tuck their child in at night, greet them in the morning, see them every day…but the reason for Michael is a divorce due to SSA. SSA is in that crevice.
As a grandfather. Any concerns about protecting the grandchild from the types of influence such as the daughter experienced regarding conservative Christian views of homosexuality? If so, SSA is already in that crevice.
As a friend. How many are SSA? If a friend or associate revealed that they believe homosexual behavior is a sin, would that generate the need for a discussion? If politically, they were against gay marriage, would that do the same? SSA is in that crevice.
Re the other quotes:
What? No time with the boyfriend? No ‘eye-candy’ when out shopping? When doing the laundry, making the beds, watering the garden, cleaning the kitchen…no thoughts of partners past, present or future? I don’t know about the focus of the reading but I KNOW that the blogging involved at least 4 or 5 that focussed on your own SSA and/or SSA orientation in general.
Several weeks ago, there were two situations where I mentioned going to the pool and Michael made references to the ‘eye-candy’ (a joke) but he followed with going to the beach (I think with his honey) and an evaluation of the type of guy they’d likely see there. No mention of the women. A gay beach? If so, SSA is in that crevice. A more typical mixed beach but Michael’s pre-beach awareness of the male hotties that would likely be there. SSA is in that crevice.
I’m not looking for answers to the questions above. They are clearly rhetorical and it doesn’t really matter to what degree SSA is in the crevice…Mary’s point was simply that it is in the crevice.
This conversation is not served well by debate speech where we say what serves our argument while overlooking those things that don’t– just as it isn’t served by hyperbolic or exaggerated speech.
And, somehow, someway, somewhere, someday…I hope and pray that we’ll actually have a conversation that, while it may not stick to the topic, doesn’t take this same detour. (I see that the ‘shame’ thread has now taken this lovely detour as well.)
You would bet wrong, then, Mary. I don’t “identify” as gay. I “identify” as Michael — as a Christian, a father, a grandfather and friend. Gay is my sexual orientation, not my “identity”.
Today, I started the morning at church choir rehearsal. Served as worship leader, welcomed the congregation, announced the hymns, led the call to worship, sang.
Did laundry. Changed the beds. Fed my cat. Watered my garden. Cleaned the kitchen. Blogged. Read. Talked to my daughter. Made dinner. Did dishes. Watched the Food Network…. OK, that last one might be gay.
Next, I plan to take a nice bath and read the Bible. How did you fill the crevices of your day? Was it all that different? Was mine any more “gay” than yours? If you really knew me — instead of just rudely assuming that you do — you might find that we are more alike than different. And you complain about me minimizing or labeling you… Wow.
Michael,
I’ll bet that “gay:” is in every crevice of your life. People who identify differently live differently.
You are right. But that’s true for ex-gays and gays alike. I am definitely gay — but “SSA” is not an “ongoing part of every part of my day.” I am too busy for that! I have work, laundry, shopping, family, church…
You guys call the remaining desires “memories”, I call them attractions. And if a man has only same sex attractions, it seems unreasonable to me to use the word “heterosexual” ro describe him. To me, exclusive SSA and “homosexual” are synonyms.
Once again, I know that people use these words differently and the SSA-only man has the RIGHT to call himself whatever he wants. And, once again, I am not saying such a man has not “changed” in many other areas of his life — even though he may still have only SSA.
I think MIchael you are fixated on labeling people by their sexuality.
Michael – Stop. You have insisted that people have not changed in a way defined by you and others.
I have gone to great lengths to describe what change looks like for me. And yet you have no idea why “ex gays” use indosynchratic language.
Sorry – but I am tired of your goings on and on about what change is and isn’t. Obviosuly, you have not been down the same path as have I so your telling of my story or anyone else’s for that matter is idiotic. You have not changout your anything homosexuality. I have.
I don’t want to name them, Mary, or define them. I was trying to define the words, not the people. I am sorry that I came across sarcastic and rude. I get that way when I think people are being deliberately misleading. I still think some “ex-gays” are.
I get it now that most people are sincere and just mean very different things even though they may use the very same words.
Here, Mary, you misunderstand me — COMPLETELY. I have never, never insisted that people “have not changed.”
It is really not fair to accuse me of doing so. I have acknowledged — time and time again — that I believe people can and DO change MANY things — identity, behavior, lifestyle, beliefs. I also believe that these changes are deeply meaningful for them. I have no problem — NO PROBLEM — with people living in accordance with their beliefs. I have no doubt that they have changed their lives in profound ways.
I am just very, very skeptical that gay MEN become straight. It seems that women may more more flexible in this regard.
Here, I both disagree and agree. I believe that, at least for men, gayness seems “fixed” — the SSA persists no matter how the person identifies or what label they apply to their lives.
I see “gay” and “SSA” as two words for the same thing — primary attraction to the same sex. Ex-gay men, with extremely few exceptions, report that they are still SSA, not OSA — therefore, since I see the words “gay”, “homosexual” and SSA as synonyms they are still “gay/SSA/homosexual” no matter what they CALL themselves.
I know you disagree with this, but that is my firm opinion. I do not see me adopting the “if you say you aren’t gay, you’re not” mindset any time soon. And I DO see “sexual orientation” (by which I mean which GENDER you are attracted to) and “sexual identity” as two different things.
A man may identify as “straight” even though he only has same-sex attractions. I have met a lot of guys like that — for example, guys who “identify” as “bi” even though they have no interest in women at all — only men. To me, that makes about as much sense as a four foot tall man calling himself “very tall”. All that being sad, I believe people have EVERY RIGHT to call themselves whatvever they want.
Michael,
How can a person remember their life without some attachment to it? You can’t.
I can tell you Change DOES NOT mean that you will never have SSA thoughts again. But it does not mean you have SSA as an ongoing part of every part of your day either.
But MIchael – you have screamed and screamed on this site for a definition of change and when it did not meet some of your criteria then you are the one who insists on naming people something other than what they choose and then you be very sarcastic and rude about it.
Of course people like myself are going to be jostled when you insist we have not changed. You call people like myself for using idiosynchratic language and yet you seem unable to even think that people think differently about sexuality than do you.
What makes perfect sense to me – not accepting a gay indentity because I don’t believe that sexual orientation is fixed and therefore do not believe that sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity are separated. If some say they are not gay – then they are not gay.
And beleive it or not, over time when someone has said anything enough times about themselves they will change something inside of them. And people with SSA are just trying to make that difference for themselves and for others l;ike them. Sort of like in the old days when gays and lesbians really didn’t want to be callled fags and dykes.
Thanks, Ann. I guess I just need to get it through my thick head that folks who no longer view themselves as gay or homosexual — those who have “walked away from homosexuality” –may (and often do) have a very personal and idiosycratic way of using (or not using) terms.
A new and different language may be an important part of their new identity. Those who have left homosexuality (or are trying to leave it) may use words in ways that may seem very unusal — even deliberately misleading — to me and others.
Or, ex-gay type folks may feel uncomfortable with any descriptive terms, resisting all categories — not wanting any terms to “define” them. The meanings are determined by each individual — so a common language may not be possible. BTW, my intent has been to define WORDS, not PEOPLE.
But, we ( OK, I) get caught in an endless loop of presenting, challenging and negating other’s definitions. I need to accept that we write our own private dictionaries. What I know darn well is BLUE may be ORANGE to you.
We really do speak different languages. I say, “Male former homosexuals are not former because they are still SSA” — and that just seems perfectly self-evident and logical to me.
They hear, “Nobody ever changes anything!!! No change of any type is possible!!! Everybody must accept that they are gay!!! That have no right to identify as they choose!!! They have no right to live as they please!!!”
I have referred to the language difference as “ex-gay new-speak” — and I have to admit it really frustrates me. I don’t mean that disrespectfully. I know that it’s a personal language of experience and identity. The common, everyday, dictionary definitions just don’t fit.
The words may sound the same — gay, straight, change, attraction, heterosexual, orientation, etc., — but the meaning may be so personal, so individualistic that for me to question them or try to nail down one definition of these terms comes across as dis-respectful to the speaker’s profound, private experience. Am I getting this right, Ann?
Michael,
You sent a wonderful quote not too long ago about how certain feelings can stay with us when we have experienced something or someone who has made a great impression on our lives. When someone disengages from anything or anyone, including same gender sex or identity, there is always going to be a knowledge and/or rememberence of it, however, that rememberence and/or stirring of feelings from time to time has a completely different meaning to those experiencing it now than it did before. It is acknowledged and understood and put into perspective as to one’s values and how they want to live. This can be an ongoing process – so are a lot of things that we do or withhold from doing so we can have that which we value or hold dear. For those that are at opposite sides of the sexual identity spectrum, perhaps the labels fit, as they should – for those anywhere toward the middle of this spectrum, I personally think they should let us know how best to refer to them. I like the labels, mother, father, brother, sister, son, daughter, uncle, aunt, cousin, friend, co-worker, etc. 🙂
Jack, then I have given the wrong impression. I have no power or desire to impose a “test”. If people feel they are “cured” or changed — or that they can be straight withoug attraction to the opposite sex, that’s perfectly OK.
However they define it, that must mean something very important and personal to them, even though I may not see things the same way. My opionions are just that — mine.
People have every right to call themselves whatever they want, to identify in any way they please, to use words in any way that suits them — and to live their lives in accordance with their values.
I just don’t think gay men become straight in the common sense of those terms. Saying that really seems to really upset some folks here — and I realize that my skepticism is my own issue — so I will quit beating the horse and take my leave.
Peter,
This is so interesting – I think this happens more than we know. Not only do I think it is possible, if not factual, that this can be sexualized but also that we sexualize those people we are curious about but seem untouchable. I am not sure how the two connect but from my own observations and experiences, they do. The question becomes how does it manifest into an enduring mindset with some and is a passing thought, dream or feeling with others?
Hi Warren (and others, esp Jack),
I can only share my own experience, which of course will be anecdotal rather than a controlled environment! For myself, I wasn’t aware of same-sex attractions until my early 20s, though before that I was aware that I wasn’t really attracted to the opposite sex – however I just thought I was waiting for the right girl! Once I’d had my first same-sex experiences I then read Mario Bergner’s “Setting Love in Order” and it really resonated with me. What was particularly striking for me was the idea that I had sexualised my need for same-sex affirmation.
How did that happen (the sexualisation)? To be honest I can’t say. My twin brother hasn’t ever had an issue with ssa so it can’t be just a genetic thing. In my case my brother literally sat on me in the womb and my mum wasn’t aware she was having twins. I was the “extra” child and I wonder whether there might even have been a spiritual dimension to it.
To the best of my knowledge, all the latest research seems to be pointing us to an interesting mix of pre-conception (i.e.e genetic), pre-natal and environmental factors in the development of ssa.
PS – Peter – I do believe there are multiple paths to SSA so I am in agreement with the possibility of some having the dynamics and some not. As noted in the prior comment, I am still unclear how the transaction actually works.
Jack & Peter – Nice to have you join the coversation.
Peter, it would be unscientific and uncharitable to say without reason that such experience as you describe could not be so. Where you can help me a bit is to flesh out how such an emotional absent Father would lead to SSA in one case and not the other. Also, what I am fuzzy about is how one gets from such a childhood experience to having arousal for the same sex within 200ms of viewing a desireable figure. Is it simple pairing of pubescent arousal with some kind of emotional arousal? The reparative narrative lays this out like it is evident but it is not so to me.
Peter Ould,
People such as you can offer much in the way of elucidation.
Pathia said,
My bias is toward the biological, but as many have said, there may be more than one path, and the statement above is too pat (just as Nicolosi’s statements seem much too pat).
For example: We know that violent male offenders in this country come much more frequently from fatherless homes than from intact ones.
Nevertheless, millions of American boys were raised in fatherless homes, yet most never commit violent crimes.
Because most never commit such crimes, we can’t assume/conclude that the lack of a father or father figure not factor into the behavior of those who did commit violent crimes.
Let me ask a question to move this conversation on a step. Do we think that the Nicolosi developmental paradigm of homosexuality might actually be descriptive of *some* men who have same-sex attraction? I posit this idea because in my own experience working through “emotionally absent Father” issues was instrumental in my seeing a dimunition of my same-sex attraction (where as issues of self worth and identity in Christ were connected to growth in heterosexual attraction). What I find now in my pastoral work is that for those men who hear the Nicolosi paradigm and resonate with it, working through those issues almost always has an affect on their ssa. At the same time however for some men with ssa the Nicolosi paradigm doesn’t match their lives and so obviously you can’t do the same thing pastorally with them (and indeed it would be utterly the wrong thing, even abusive).
Thoughts?
“On the other hand I know of many males who had the Nicolosi paradim, but they are straight.”
Jack,
Indeed, I know far more straight men that have bad relationships with their fathers, in the same way Nicolosi seems to say causes homosexuality, yet…well they’re straight. So…I just don’t get it. I really don’t, it’s like he sees the world with an entirely different set of eyes.
His views are just completely illogical to me correlation != causation. If it was poor familial relations, we’d be like 40-60% queer, instead of ~4% 😛
About the kids with “thug” or misbehaving older sibs:
Once in a blue moon a kid would say early in the year, “I hope you won’t hold it against me that _____ was such a _____.” For the most part, though, such statements about siblings came only after a long while. after they were secure in the knowledge that they had established proof of their own performance or after they grew to trust me. However, some never brought up the connections.
Ann, it is so true the fear of failure begins so early and the fear of unfair comparisons does as well.
Ann said,
Oh, yes, so true, I think. The child we often describe as “very responsible,” or “mature beyond his/her years” or sometimes even the “so kind” one is often a child who feels responsible for the happiness of the group, be it the class or the family. If he senses distress/ pain in those he cares about, he feels it encumbent upon himself to either “fix” that or at least not to contribute to it by seeking to meet his own needs. I think this is the kid who grows up feeling quilty about pursuing his own happiness. There’s danger that a resentment will grow as he comes to realize he is struggling to meet the needs of others rather than his own. I”ve heard it said this way: he/she has been taught that a good son/daughter takes care of his mother, father, siblings and so he has sacrificed for them, “climbed a cross” for them, as it were. Then he grows to resent climbing that cross, then ultimately loathes himself for resenting it. Vicious cycle.
Eddy – SO TRUE!!!! I am fortunate enough to have a close relationsip with my mom, as she is my neighbor also. And as an adult we can converse about things and she has been able to give me her perspective (that you can’t really share with children as they are growing up) The insight has been very beneficial. Of course good parents make mistakes. Do we know anyone on this planet who has not? And of course good children can misread a parent. The worlds of children and adults are very different. And no one is to blame.
As well, you can do everything right and still lose. That is not failure, that is life.
Michael,
In many of these discussions , I get the impression that a person has to “prove” that they are “cured” or must passs some kind of test for themselves or others. It seems very judgemental to me. Like, oh, you had 3 SSA thoughts on monday, and 3 feelings or wednesday< etc., therefore, no you are not "cured". Well, there is no definitive test for this. There is only self reporting and what a person has accepted as "cured" and what they are willing to "live" with.
Re siblings:
I wonder if the siblings with ‘the thugs’ in the family simply want to keep that under wraps. When I went into 9th grade at the Catholic high school…teacher’s who had one or more of my older brothers would mention that and, for various reasons, I’d shudder from the comparison. (At the time, I wasn’t very proud of my older brothers and branded two of them as ‘mindless jocks’.)
Then I switched over to public school…partly so I wouldn’t have to live under any shadow…and rarely spoke of them unless someone already knew them.
Re parental units:
Not every poor father relationship is going to lead to the development of homosexual attraction in a male. In our compulsion to package things up ever so neatly, we miss significant variables…some that may not have appeared significant at the time. It’s okay for a therapist to wonder about the potential impact of wrong messages received in the relationship to one or both parents but they should be extremely guarded against ‘steering’.
Michael provided an excellent example of steering when he said:
A good therapist shouldn’t be telling a client what the client thinks or feels…nor should they approach a client with a preconceived diagnosis. Beyond that, though, they also need to guard when probing that they might be steering or leading. (If they keep asking questions relating to a poor father relationship, a client could be swayed into putting more emphasis there than is necessary.)
In any event, good parents make mistakes AND good kids can misread parents. Both of these realities need to be entertained before placing any blame anywhere.
Carole,
Very, very interesting. I guess the fear of failure starts very early in life.
Yes, I know. From my observation of family dynamics, including my own, I have come to only one conclusion – when there is a loving/caring parent/adult who intervenes during times of emotional confusion or physical abuse and puts order and perspective back into the mix to teach and guide with accountability, the chances are infinitely better that the well being of the children will be in tact. This also takes a vigilent parent/adult who is aware as many times children will not talk about any emotional or physical abuse out of shame or fear of retaliation. Often, children will not talk for fear that it will also hurt their parents so they take the blame and shame and abuse on themselves – this is a recipe for all kinds of emotional turmoil.
Jack, I completely agree! It is certainly is, and has always been, their right. I don’t recall anyone suggesting that it isn’t. How could anyone take away such a right? And, who would want to?
When some of us question what they mean when they make such claims, it does not mean that we don’t think they have the “right” to believe, think, identify or behave in any manner they choose. As long as it doesn’t take away anyone else’s rights, of course they do!
I have known many who fit various levels of gay, bi on the continum over the years and found that with few exceptions, most had the paradigm described by Nicolosi to one degree or another. Yes, there were a few exceptions of males where I wondered about the SSA outcome with such a “perfect” family. On the other hand I know of many males who had the Nicolosi paradim, but they are straight.
I think that we are assuming too much that every boy at age 6, 8, 10, 12, etc. is equal in every way in emotional/psychological development and parents are all equal in the way they do or do not parent. This couldn’t be further from what really goes on. There are so many variables with each, that a modern day computer could never keep up with it. Most will agree that it is not known what “causes” homosexuality. With so many different variables involved, there may be and probably are many paths to SSA. Even though Nicolosi has strong support for his theory, the outcomes of therapy for so many, have not “cured” them (although there are some who make legitimate claims that they no longer “struggle”, but they are happy with their present condition). So, in many ways we are dealing with the definition of “cured” and what SSA people are willing to accept. Some may want and expect that they will never have any SSA thoughts/attractions/feelings. If they are looking for “cured” to be “i never have another thought/feeling/attraction of SSA”, I think this is entirely unrealistic, but, if they are happy with their condition of occasional SSA thoughts/feelings/attractions and can handle it with CBT, they are entitled to their opinion that they are “cured” and happy and who are we to tell them that they aren’t? Allowing the SSA person to decide what they are willing to accept either way is their right.
Mar, I agree completely. Fact is,most of us had both positive and negative experiences with our fathers. My own Dad was tough and tender, harsh and supportive, serious and funny, etc. Sometimes, we didn’t like each other much. Sometimes, we were the best of friends.
Tell a confused and unhappy gay young man that he is gay because he had a bad Dad and, with the right “help”, he will be able to find many good examples of his Dad’s badness. Tell him his mother was defective and he will find examples of that, too.
Fact is, our Dads were human, a mixed bag of positive and negative qualities — and some of us turned out gay, some straight. I think it had very little to do with what kind of Dad we had.
Carole,
Yep – I am the last of four kids and I was compared to each one. I was not as deligent nor interested in school per se. I rarely attended class but they grauadted me anyhow – based on my siblings.
My father was hardly athletic. In fact, I am more athletic than he is. We still had quite a large amount of “shared delight.” We’re both artists and musicians, and many of my happiest childhood memories would be him teaching me guitar (although I lost interest in that instrument) or accompanying me with his guitar while I played piano (which I really loved). Or when I was older I would just go down to his recording studio and sing “Gimmie Shelter” or “Layla” and we’d make a demo. That’s plenty of “shared delight” right there, but I guess it didn’t revolve around sports or fixing cars so Nicolosi would likely disregard it.
Common statements from high school students the first day or week of school:
“Don’t expect me to be like my brain-o brother.” (an imperative)
“I hope you won’t expect me to be like my straight-A sister.” (a plea)
“I know you’ve had my brother and sister; I am not like them at all. They were good in English.” (a declarative meant to begin the family and individual narrative).
“My brother was good in EVERYTHING.” (declarative meant to say “I don’t measure up so don’t expect me to.)
As I look back on the myriad statements, I realize how very few of them did the opposite–“My brother was a goof-off.” or “My brother was a thug.” (thus, “I am not.”)
Ann,
You should have observed me and my siblings. I look back at it and even my friends and their siblings growing up – childhood is hard!!! It is amazing any of us became adults without some anti-social trigger being set off by all the “growing up” we had to do.
If all fathers and sons who are at odd with eachother produced homosexuality then we should have a lot more homosexuality in our present culture. As such – how does this explain homosexuality in historical cultures? Nicolosis explanation is far too simple for the variety of paths that people seem to take in their sexual development.
I think sibling impact is convoluted at best and because of that researchers may stay away. How many children? What are the genders? What are the ages? How do they effect eachother? Who has a sensitive personality and where does he or she fit into the mix. So many variables. My siblings are all strong personalities. And siblings can be extrmemly cruel – I know I was at times as well as were my siblings. It’s sort of like an untamed litter of humans at times.
Ann–
I believe we begin learning from birth. I don’t know at what age we begin comparing…noticing differences…but it’s clear that we do. Any parent who has monitored a dinner table knows this. “He got more chicken in his soup that I did”…”she got the bigger ‘half'”…
Parents play a significant role in our identity formation. For those of us who have siblings, I think the effect is likely a very close second. I happen to be the ‘middlest and the littlest’ of 7 brothers (no sisters). I may be exceptionally informed, extremely biased, or both. 🙂
It gets tricky evaluating sibling dynamics. Impact is different depending on how many siblings there are…what gender they are…whether they are older or younger than the one being impacted…what the areas of perceived difference are…and how much those areas seem to be valued. And, I guess you could toss the parents into the mix, were/are they aware of the potential for sibling impact and how are they trying to minimize that impact?
Siblings and their relationship with not only each other but with parents have a tremendous impact on self-image.
Mary,
Yes, I have. It is particularly cruel if it is emotional or sexual abuse.
Has anyone consider the idea that siblings can have an enourmous impact on the development of a person?
I agree. For this particular pathway, the question then becomes – “is this pathway enduring or can it change over time depending on the person experiencing it?
Warren commented and Ann responded,
This stuck out. We could even modify this to say “some people are so damaged by their families, particularly by their mothers and fathers, that they respond to any kindness, and their sexual responses are guided and shaped by their emotional hunger.”
As Ann has seen this is foster care children, I have seen it in teens in the public school. A child who feels abandoned, left-out, ignored seeks either w/draws completely or seeks comfort from anyone who appears to provide some semblance of acceptance or from any situation that appears to welcome them w/out imposing shame.
If it’s true that there may be several pathways to SSA, maybe this is one, but Nicolosi’s attempts to try to fit round pegs into square holes is just amazing. I think he is trying to work on his own issues, if you ask me.
I have observed this in both adult men and women, young adults, and children of both genders. I’m not sure how “damage” is measured, however, when there is a deficit in emotional connection with either a mother or father, sexual responses in the person feeling the deficit can vary, sometimes impulsively to fulfill the emotional hunger. I have seen this many times in foster care facilities regarding children.