Recently, I received an email from Michael Bussee asking me to consider the harmful aspects of trying to change sexual orientation. My first reaction was to remind him of the prior posts on the blog regarding potentially harmful practices and perspectives. I may be one of the few social conservatives to leave the zone of comfort and openly question the status quo among those who work toward change. And I have been clear that I work for congruence with values rather than focus on change. Part of the rationale behind the sexual identity therapy framework was to address practices which can exacerbate the kinds of experiences Michael described in his email. Here is his list:
Overpromises hurt
Being told you are sick or damaged hurts.
Parents are hurt when they are blamed.
Wives and kids are hurt by ill-advised marriages.
Those with serious psychitric problems are hurt by “counselors” with no training or expertise.
Vague definitions of “change” hurt.
False advertising hurts.
Shunning hurts.
Blaming and shaming hurt
“You are not enough, did not try hard enough and don’t have enough faith” messages hurt.
Being told you are not saved and were never really a Christian anyway hurts.
Being told that you will now burn for all etermity — because you could not achieve the ill-defined “change” hurts.
I agree that some approaches to change may result in these hurts. For instance, one person told me that they sought help from one change therapist because he promised change would occur if the therapist’s program was followed precisely. After a year, despite following the program, there was no change in attractions, and the client felt disillusioned and defeated. Another person told me that he came forward in a church service for healing prayer. Despite words of knowledge for healing, the same-sex attractions persisted. He was sure he lacked faith and felt farther away from God. I have written about similar results in my article, A Valued Life. My friend, Jim, had tried change approaches and reflected back in this way:
A few years ago, when I was debating whether or not to “embrace” my homosexuality, I heard a radio broadcast from a ministry I trusted. I still highly respect them, even today. But I believe that they have blinders on, that allow them to see homosexuality in only one way. Anyway, I listened to the broadcast on homosexuality, complete with some very moving testimonies. And then the host came on and said, essentially, that homosexuality was a sickness, and Jesus Christ was in the business of healing. Well, I’ve been a Christian since 1971, have asked God to take my attractions to men away so many times I’ve lost count, and still struggle with it.
It was a moment of complete hopelessness.
While I have not addressed all of Michael’s list, I believe sexual identity counselors and ministry leaders should evaluate our work to avoid harmful practices. I have consistently spoken to the need to examine theories and techniques for fidelity to research and ethical practice. No one is immune from error however, and we need to approach this arena with care and as much humility as frail human beings can muster. While I believe sexual identity ministry has achieved great benefit in the lives of many, this does not take away the harm that has occured. I hope to keep learning and will continue to promote and refine the sexual identity therapy framework for the better.
I would also like to see a study of those who do succeed and find the common denominators in such as well.
Over at Ex-Gay Watch some of us are in a similar discussion about harm. I know that lots of folks who read Warren’s blog do not read Ex-Gay Watch, so I thought I would republish the answer to a question asked of me by Warren and echoed by David Roberts, the editor of Ex-Gay Watch.
Warren asked, “Peterson – I am not asking for specific techniques or approaches. I am wondering if there are any objectives besides living as an out gay/lesbian that you find acceptible for clients and therapists to pursue?
Timothy on this blog listed three objectives (correct me Timothy, if I am incorrect, I cannot find the comment): 1. come out as gay/lesbian, 2. celibacy & 3) if heterosexually married, work toward keeping the marriage intact, especially if children are involved.
Do you believe therapists can ethically support clients pursuing those goals, assuming the therapeutic approaches to do so are valid and the client has given informed consent?”
Here is my response:
David and Warren, I’ve crawled out of my study to say that I disagree. For one I do not know of a method or therapy or theory that I can say does not contribute to harm.
No one knows.
I’m not saying one does not exist. The problem is no one has taken the time and care to explore the harm that many of us have experienced. How can one endorse or create a new approach until we better understand the factors that contribute to the harm? If not, you may end up recreating the wheel.
In order to seriously consider the harm that people experienced in therapy and ministry, you do not need me or anyone to state what might not be harmful. You need to look at the evidence we have, study it and hopefully then you will see where others have gone wrong in their theories and methods.
We launched bXg in April of this year and only have posted a handful of the narratives we have received. This new voice–those who have experienced harm– is new to the discussion but vital. It is likely that we represent the majority of people who have undergone ex-gay treatment in the past 30 years.
Warren perhaps one of the most helpful contributions you can make at this time is to conduct a study of 500+ ex-gay survivors who spent at least two years pursuing an ex-gay route and who say they experienced more harm than good. You can then better understand, from a research stand point, what harms exists and their causes. We can also consider the good that ex-gay consumers say they experience to see if that could have been gain another way without the addition of all the harm.
I do not need such a study. I know about this first hand and daily interact with people whose lives have been negatively affected by ex-gay therapy (both Christian & secular) and ex-gay ministries.
Ken,
Who says there are no problems? I haven’t seen anybody here say that.
You’re correct. In fact, in post 60635 I said:
If those who approach therapy with a desire to change and who instead are encouraged to embrace their sexuality are experiencing feelings of desperation, hopelessness, entrapment and suicide, then the menal health community needs to rethink its approach and look for early signs of these feelings.
I think that many of us would like to know what harm is present and encourage steps to avoid this harm. The difficulty is in getting a clear idea of just what this harm consists of.
Ann gave us some examples – a few I found doubtful but others I think are worth further inspection. Surely we could all of us – gay, ex-gay, everstraight, ex-ex-gay, whatever – agree that if the mental health community is not adequately addressing those concerns, then we should encourage them to do so.
Mary said in post 60835:
I really am at a loss for those who say that unwanted same sex attraction and leaving the gay lifestyle is without it’s problems from “our old friends” the gay community, the church, our families etc
Who says there are no problems? I haven’t seen anybody here say that.
Jag,
Your post meant a lot to me – thank you for hearing what I was saying and the way you responded. Your ability to feel for others, whether you agree with or understand them, is a wonderful foundation for bridge building. You have an attentive and appreciate audience with me,
Anonymous,
Thank you for your kind words and comments and good advice. They mean a lot to me. I do feel your support and appreciate it – a lot.
Mary.
Thank you for your ability to see through stagnation and look beyond limitations. I agree with your comments and appreciate them.
Ann,
Thank for your responses. I cannot fathom the the double standard anymore. I really am at a loss for those who say that unwanted same sex attraction and leaving the gay lifestyle is without it’s problems from “our old friends” the gay community, the church, our families etc… and the larger community at large – it pegs us as bigots before we even say anything.
Timothy,
Thank you, I appreciate the support, but you need not be concerned. I don’t really care what people who don’t bother get to know me assume about me.
Or continue to think they way you are thinking – discount what others of opposing views have to say and keep believing that ex gays suffer no isolation, humility, threats etc…
Too bad, if gays and ex gays and ex ex gays worked together we could really be a force to reckon with when it comes to how the church responds to it’s own sin and that of others.
ANN–
One of the only regrets I have over my retirement is that I can’t be there for you at times like these. Know that I feel for you and that I believe in you. Your sincerity has touched me and so has your heart of compassion. Focus on the productive discussions you have had with JAG. Peace!
Ken,
You may be finding this discouraging at the moment. I know you were seeking communication but instead ran into a dismissive “thank you”.
But, nonetheless, I encourage you to continue to put your points out there. Step up to the plate with your views, your experiences, your wisdom, and your thinking. Challenge those statements that are clearly based on ignorance or bias. Present evidence of your position.
If you are accused of contempt and indifference, just keep smiling and trying to communicate. When you are told that you “refuse to see” or “only believe” or any other personal accusation, all you can do is sigh and politely try to address the point at hand.
If others refuse to listen, you can’t be faulted for trying. And perhaps, despite the refusal to listen, something may be heard. I choose to believe that much of the rudeness is based on a fear that what you are saying just might have merit. And perhaps hearts and minds are being changed. And that makes it worth while.
Ann –
Thank you for your response and clarification. I suppose when I was responding, I was referring to the person struggling the best way I could…but I used labels that you did not, and likely misrepresented what you asked. If I did that, I apologize.
I do hope that the person “who suffers” finds a way. I don’t honestly know what that way is, aside from people who are open to the struggle, accepting of where they are at, and willing to be a support. I hope that the day comes where we will see more of that.
Thank you for your unique take on the issue of sexuality and those who may not fit into one category or another…who might not know if they want to attempt change or not…who might simply be suffering.
You made me take a step back and examine my own words.
Thanks.
Jag,
Just another clarification – I am not referring to this particular post of your’s when I mention the other responses or lack of response I have received. I felt it important to make the distinction.
Jag,
As I stated above, thank you for the comments you wrote in response to my posts. I would like to clarify that I never mentioned the ex-gay community, the ex-gay person, the ex-gay perspective, the ex-gay movement, or ex-gay therapy as you refer to in your response. I still have no idea nor do I want to know, what all those labels mean – my appeal was to put forth the feelings of an individual who suffers. That appeal for understanding has been met with the usual contempt and indifference that I have referred to so much on this blog. I cannot even get a “I do not understand completely what you are saying but I am sorry for what these individuals have felt and want to know more about how I can help”. When you told me about an injustice, I acted swiftly and with conviction to find out more in the spirit of resolve. I did not need to understand all the implications or scrutinize what you said – just that it was an injustice that I wanted to know more about and be part of the resolution. Never once did I think “how is this going to affect me”. With all my efforts, I do not believe I am going to get anyone, including Dr. Throckmorton to answer my questions I have posed to him or have anyone on this blog acknowledge what I have posted or the people I have spoken of. I am ready to move onto another topic and perhaps be more successful there.
Ken,
Thanks for your response and comments – it is all I really needed to hear and know to verify what I have been feeling and saying.
Jag,
Thanks for your comments –
Ann said in post 60685:
I have answered your questions with both my mind and heart on both this thread and in at least a third of all my other posts to the blog.
You’ve answered with confusing and convoluted statements and broad generalizations. Frankly, just about any time I see someone reference “the gay community” they may as well be saying “the gay mafia” because I don’t believe there is some monolithic “community” that speaks for all gays.
I really do believe my point has been understood and the knee jerk reaction is to act like it is mis-understood.
It isn’t only a matter of mis-understanding, but of disbelief as well. You have made broad claims that gays “vilify” those who seek change. I haven’t seen any examples of this. Maybe it has happened, or maybe your own biases have caused you to mis-interpret events or over generalize isolated incidents.
Also, you stated “The same harm is done to the individual who feels trapped with feelings they do not want and is being told to accept them as the person who has feelings they are content with and is told to change them.”
You are emphasizing that last part of this statement (“being told to accept their feelings”) as the cause of the harm. I suspect that it is the most harm is caused due to the conditions in the 1st part (the things that make the person feel trapped and not want these feelings).
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I’m certainly not going to be convinced of that by someone who simply says I am and isn’t willing to discuss it.
Ann –
You stated “Hopefully someday all issues of pain and suffering can be listened to and understood with compassion instead of how they are addressed on this blog.”
I think that the ex-gay quest holds many challenges for both that person, and society at large. I realize that the felt necessity for change is, often, largely directed by faith beliefs…but I wonder, to what end does this help the person, and to what end does religion set these individuals up for lifelong struggle. It doesn’t help that society knows little to nothing about this, in any real sense….aside from the misleading billboards (“change is possible”) and the slander of some who don’t take the time to understand what it is all about.
Let me clarify. I am not saying that individuals should all “accept” their current orientation, I just wonder what constructs keep them feeling so desparate. So alone, and what we have done in our society to promote these isolative feelings around sexuality.
The ex-gay person has the unique dilemma of not truly finding acceptance anywhere (I would argue that most in the church still do not treat them equally, and those in the larger world do not know quite how to interpret their quest or treat them with respect). Truth is, to me, they are just individuals attempting to live in accordance with their faith beliefs.
There are many who make great sacrifices in their sexuality for their faith – priests, nuns, etc…but for some reason, we do not categorize these similarly because of the necessity of “change” in the ex-gay perspective rather than abstinence (well, sometimes).
I think the church is largely responsible for the distortion of the message of “change,” leading congregants and those who would attempt ex-gay therapy to believe it is a simple act of faith with easy outcomes of conversion. Saying this, I think it is the responsibility of the church to be clear about what this struggle really entails, its difficulty, and really provide support and community for those who are attempting this – really – on their behalf.
I wonder as we see more churches accepting same-sex attractions as a normal God-given inclination, if we will see those who enter therapy to become ex-gay go down…
Many of the concerns listed regarding adoption, employment, etc..are those that gay people face everyday. I wonder why the ex-gay movement and gay movement have not joined for nondiscrimination laws around orientation – I’d love to see this happen.
Another perspective is that the APA may need to recognize that sometimes, certain acts of faith are not necessarily ones that will be supported by the research or deemed “healthy” to pursue. I have not seen long-term studies done on the effects of long-term celibacy in priesthood (although they may be out there)…or nonmarriage or psychological effects of childlessness in nuns. Thus, when we criticize ex-gays from the standpoint of “science,” well…although it may have much credibility to add to the discussion (for example, we know that “change” is most often not complete transformation from homo to hetero), we also do not give it the same “hands off” treatment we do for some of the other sexual sacrifices some make in the name of faith.
Granted, when this becomes an issue of public policy, or an expectation for everyone…I think it is both fair and right for the APA to scrutinize it, especially when psychological harm is a possibility or when other groups are making psychological claims that are not true.
So…Ann, while I agree that the ex-gay community is often a hurting one, I hope that somehow we can build bridges between communities to change this. While I would never want to be a stumbling block for anyone (being in a same-sex relationship), I would hope that there are ways to increase communication between the faith community, gay community, exgay community and society at large. I’m not sure yet how to do this…but there seems an urgent need. The gay community feels rejected from the church, society, family, etc…and so does the ex-gay community. The church may need to step up and be a place for reconciliation….but as of yet, I haven’t seen this happening.
The thing we all have to agree to, on the dotted line before even beginning this type of thing is acceptance – and for many, acceptance of some groups is going to be hard to swallow.
Ken,
I have answered your questions with both my mind and heart on both this thread and in at least a third of all my other posts to the blog. I really do believe my point has been understood and the knee jerk reaction is to act like it is mis-understood.
What I have been saying is a simple concept to understand and unfortunately a very real truth to those that feel it and the consequences of it. It is really a no brainer when it is looked at for just what it is. I know it challenges the long held beliefs of many and that in itself can be disconcerting. Hopefully someday all issues of pain and suffering can be listened to and understood with compassion instead of how they are addressed on this blog.
Ann said in post 60656:
I wrote you earlier and tried my best to explain the harm one experiences when they feel they have no choice but to remain silent about their unwanted same gender attractions and the pain that is unjustly incurred as a direct consequence of that.
what you posted earlier were more claims of harm but no actual examples. Give me an example of how someone seeking change his orientation is vilified? Show me how it is “the gay community” doing it?
Further, there is an important issue you leave out. why are these people so desperate to change their orientation? I would say that the issues that are making them so desperate to change have more to do with their pain, than the fact that people are telling them they can’t change at all.
Timothy,
You hit on something that has bothered me from the beginning: The fact that Christian groups, often groups who claim they are REAL Christians and others aren’t, are the groups we find deceiving people and twisting facts to support their agenda. When people say, well, its no worse than when other groups do it, I think to myself, YES it is. These are self-professed CHRISTIAN groups doing this, acting like the world, and not baring the kind of fruit you would expect from faithful Christians. From my perspective we are all fallen people, and we all make mistakes, but when Christian groups, often Evangelicals, do these kinds of things repeatedly, we have to wonder about their motives and their faith.
I was unaware that we were discussing anyone who had feeling that they were content with and was being told to change them. I thought Peterson was documenting those who did seek to change unwanted feelings and were hurt in the process.
Ken,
I wrote you earlier and tried my best to explain the harm one experiences when they feel they have no choice but to remain silent about their unwanted same gender attractions and the pain that is unjustly incurred as a direct consequence of that. If you or others want to be believed and trusted and validated for your feelings, please help me understand why you are so unwilling to see someone’s else’s pain and want to meet any discussion of it with invalidating what they are saying rather than with compassion.
The same harm is done to the individual who feels trapped with feelings they do not want and is being told to accept them as the person who has feelings they are content with and is told to change them. The details beyond that are trivial if the point is not recognized as valid. I apologize in advance if you only wanted Mary to address this.
Let’s backtrack a bit here. In the very 1st response in this thread (post 57705) Mary said:
I will continue to remind others of the potential to risk harm to themselves if they don’t give their own decisions to change a chance.
In later discussions of this, Mary seemed to be saying people could be hurt by attempting to accept being gay.
Timothy asked for examples of how people could be harmed. I’d like to know too. a) because it would help clarify what she is actually saying, and b) because I (and I suspect Timothy as well) don’t really see how it would be harmful. So I would like to see some evidence to support this claim.
Concerned,
No it is not alright for anyone to create deception in the public media. I have condemned Dr. Salzar for her inaccurate statements. I have also criticized Wayne Besen when he has made statements that I did not believe could be supported by the facts.
But I have a question for you. One that I would like you to seriously consider and then – after real thought – answer:
Is it ever acceptable for a Christian to be deceptive – even if others are?
Ann,
I hope you will make an exception to your “I don’t read Timothy’s comments” rule in this instance.
Perhaps I was mistaken but I thought that you are not a person who has experienced unwanted same-sex attractions. Nonetheless, I commend you for actually itemizing those areas where you can envision hurt existing. As those who are ex-gay here seem unwilling to do so, I am glad that you did so on their behalf.
I want to review those potential hurts you listed:
isolation from former friends, fear of retaliation, discrimmination from employment, discrimmination from the ability to adopt, scorn, contemptuous words and slander, feelings of suicide, inability to receive credible psychological treatment, fear, entrapment of unwanted feelings, desperation, feelings of helplessnes and hopelessness from deceptive and faulty medical and psychological professionals who would rather be popular with their colleagues and organizations than be concerned with the well being of their patient or client, etc.
I believe some of those are valid and legitimate concerns. Others are, in my opinion, either highly unlikely or an illogical fear. Let me eliminate those first:
There are no documented cases of any single individual who – because of a decision to go from being gay to becoming ex-gay – has ever lost employment or been barred from adoption. In fact, while there are states that bar gay persons from adopting, their conversion to ex-gay would (theoretically, at least) re-enable them to adopt. These can be immediately eliminated from the list of potential harms.
I also want to break the remaining potential harms into categories:
social consequences – loss of former friends, scorn, contemptious word, fear of retaliation
personal consequences – feelings of suicide, feelings of entrapment by unwanted attractions, desperation, feelings of hopelessness
professional consequences – deceptive or faulty medical advice
Of the above, I can see how social consequences tie to the decision to become ex-gay. But I am at a loss as to how to remedy those harms.
Often ex-gay ministries or private counsel advise that the client avoid their former friends. Ministries go further in advising that the client view the former friends as deluded or shallow or controlled by sex or even Enemies of God. One might even say that the social consequence hurts are a natural result of the methods of ex-gay efforts.
As for professional consequences, I suspect that this really is more of an accusation based on distrust and dislike of the psychological community than a real harm resulting from actual events. Nonetheless, if a professional is providing medically inaccurate information, they should be reported.
Finally we come to the personal consequences. I think that those involved in the mental health community should pay attention and address these personal consequenced when observed by those who are seeking to become ex-gay. This would indeed be an area wherein dialog would be of value.
If those who approach therapy with a desire to change and who instead are encouraged to embrace their sexuality are experiencing feelings of desperation, hopelessness, entrapment and suicide, then the menal health community needs to rethink its approach and look for early signs of these feelings.
Perhaps Warren knows whether the APA has steps in place to look for just such signs. If not, maybe an inquiry of Jack Dresher would help clarify.
Jayhuck,
Please read my post again – this time with an open mind and heart and with compassion to hear what I am trying to say – it is just as important and valid as everything you have ever said that I have listened to with an open mind and heart and with compassion. If you still hold the same opinion as you stated above, then I will understand and respect your thoughts. I am not asking you to agree with me but to understand how others feel, even if you do not share the same feelings.
Ann,
I think you make an assumption about therapists when you say things like “from deceptive and faulty medical and psychological professionals who would rather be popular with their colleagues and organizations than be concerned with the well being of their patient or client” – just because a therapist doesn’t support SIT or reparative therapy doesn’t mean that they don’t care about their clients. Perhaps that is not what you were saying, but that’s how I read that.
Ann and Mary,
It is not exactly the same. The discrimination and harm that gay people suffer is usually far more sever than the harm that ex-gay people suffer. That being said, it is true that ex-gay people do suffer from discrimination – too often at the hands of people who should know better – but here is the rub: Being gay is not a disease and as such is not in need of change. That is the presumption that all therapists, even those who might follow the SIT framework, believe in. Just because a person comes into therapy saying they want to live in accordance with their values does not mean the therapist could or should immediately indulge their whims. Once a thorough investigation has been made into why the client wants this and whether or not it will be good for them given this reason, then and only then should a client, if he isn’t with one already, be referred to a therapist that can help them. This will probably be a somewhat lengthy process. Just because a client claims they want something does not mean they should immediately get it without question. My feeling is that only a very small number of people will seek to alter their orientation, and then, of those, only a smaller number still will actually stay with therapy.
Ken,
The feelings are very similar to those described by an individual who wants to be accepted and respected for being gay and has experienced hurt and pain through words and actions from those who do not relate to or agree with their individual desires. I have talked about this a lot on the blog. The individual who has unwanted SSA deserves the same respect and resources as the individual who seeks acceptance for their SSA. An individual seeking acceptance can go to many credible resources and be embraced – it is not the same for the person seeking understanding and help for their unwanted SSA. They are villified for just bringing up the subject and questioning their right for treatment for that which they do not want. They are not, nor should they be confused with organized religious groups, zealots, etc. – just individuals. The gay community knows what it feels like to be oppressed – why are they doing it to others? We cannot even get to the point of results if the attitude is “you cannot be helped nor do we want to even try to help you with this”. Where does that leave a person? Injured, depressed, feelings of suicide? I believe there are many examples of this on this blog. Some words that might help in describing how they feel are – isolation from former friends, fear of retaliation, discrimmination from employment, discrimmination from the ability to adopt, scorn, contemptuous words and slander, feelings of suicide, inability to receive credible psychological treatment, fear, entrapment of unwanted feelings, desperation, feelings of helplessnes and hopelessness from deceptive and faulty medical and psychological professionals who would rather be popular with their colleagues and organizations than be concerned with the well being of their patient or client, etc. I hope this helps you and others understand more.
What is the same?
Ken,
It is the same.
Mary said in post 60438
I believe I have answered you and I believe you did not listen and took it as poor satire..
I haven’t seen where you clearly answered Timothy’s questions about the harm that is caused. Peterson posted a link to a list of harm he experienced when he tried to become straight. Perhaps you can follow his example to clearly illustrate the harm you say occurs.
Eddy,
Please, please come out of retirement.
Timothy,
But it seems to be perfectly alright for the progay side of this arguement to create a deception in the public media for political reasons (especially those like Wayne Bensen and Dr. What’s her name from the Montel Williams show).
Timothy,
I believe I have answered you and I believe you did not listen and took it as poor satire.
Eddy has gone back into retirement. Will try to resist a Cher moment…will try to stay retired. (PS…thanks, JAG.)
Mary,
You are mistaken.
I believe I’ve asked you three times to share some examples of this harm. Would you care to do so?
Providing an illustration of what you mean might be more fruitful than simply posting insults and accusations.
Eddy,
To whom are you speaking? I think, in our hearts, many of us want to be bridge builders – you, however – in what you wrote above – sound much more like a martyr. I don’t mean to be snippy, but you seem to be seeing the best in yourself and not the best in others. I don’t think I’m alone when I say that many of us on here appreciate your thoughtful posts, but sometimes it seems as if you are trying to build bridges by yourself without first engaging the help of others.
Timothy,
Sadly, it was not an attempt at satire but said in all seriousness. That you sigh and take it as such just illustrates my point better than I could ever have myself. You really do not see that some people are harmed when they are not allowed to live in accordance with their beliefs. You truly do believe that if a person experiences same sex attraction that the only good way to live is to accept that and live sexually as a homosexual.
I accept that some people are better off living sexually as a gay person. And I accept that people have been harmed by well meaning individuals who have tried to “coach” them into heterosexuality. But there are more people and experiences in this world than the ones given media attention. And sadly many ex ex gays and gays do not want to see those people.
Eddy –
Thank you for revisiting your definition and bringing some clarity to our discussion around bisexuality. I agree with Concerned, that if there was anyone I would want to see working for a group like Exodus, who might be able to put things into a better light – it would be you.
However, I know for myself, it is not an organization I would want to be affiliated with for numerous reasons…and don’t blame you at all if you feel the same.
Best Regards.
And my point was that for the 3rd time in year I tried to move us beyond ‘it depends on what you mean by change”–to actually come to an agreement on the basic definitions we are using.
The problem, Eddy, is that you want us all to agree that “change” means anything Exodus wants it to mean at any given moment.
But some of us believe that language should be used to clarify, not to obfuscate.
And to argue that something COULD mean something other than the obvious meaning and therefore is acceptable sounds to me like a defense of deceptive advertising rather than a principled stance.
And the problem is not that we here at this site all need to agree on a set of special code words, but rather that our communication should be able to be clear and concise and understandable by those outside these confines. You and I and Warren are not the only audience for radio ads and billboards. So the language used must be understood not only by you, I, and Warrren but also by Average Joe in his car on his way home from work. And especially it should be understood by Senator Joe who has exactly half an hour to figure out his position on some bill.
If your argument is that it is acceptable to be deceptive, then we simply are not going to agree and get beyond that. There is no bridge that I can cross that says that it is OK to deceive the public.
I know that this frustrates you. It frustrates me as well. Because I don’t think that it is genuinely your intent to be dishonest or deceptive. That just doesn’t sound like the Eddy I’ve come to know. But I don’t know why you don’t hear us when we say that certain language is not truthful.
Eddy,
I do not know if you are still here, but I want you to know that I am feeling much the same as you on this. I do embrace change in many ways in my life today, which is something that I had a hard time doing for many years because I was caught up in believing that it was not possible. I hope you change your mind about leaving us, but I can fully understand your frustration.
And my point was that for the 3rd time in year I tried to move us beyond ‘it depends on what you mean by change”–to actually come to an agreement on the basic definitions we are using. Since I’ve been here, I’ve had a dream of being a bridge-builder…of trying to break down the miscommunication and lack of communication…to maybe impact the potential for future hurts. My attempt disinterests you so much that you feel it’s a great moment to interrupt with your burning question. I’ve been on the edge for awhile but I have given up the dream of building that bridge. Can’t even build a single piling, let alone a bridge. I concluded my previous post with “I’m outta here”…you might want to ask yourself what I mean by ‘here’. I’m going to go out in search of some people who actually want to get constructive. Enjoy your endless loop.
Eddy,
My favorite was: “I have a question about SIT therapy that has never been answered”.
This is my fault for not being clear at what I was wanting – it is not that I didn’t see how they viewed homosexuality, it is how that viewpoint that they state they hold will play out in a therapy sitting.
It has been my experience – that my Christian therapist will often ask me what is my theology on someting before moving forward. And then she will also check in with me as to my current theology to see if I have changed my perspective. I asked her once what her theology was and her response was that it was not her theology she was concerned with.
Anyone who’s interested in pursuing the truthfulness of Michael’s assertion, you’ll be relieved to know we’ve got it covered. Go to search archives and type “Exodus statement” (no punctuation though). The full title of the thread is “Exodus statement about “sudden, radical and complete change”. I’m sure that’s the story he’s referring to although Michael now claims it was a national radio campaign rather than just one station.
“With Alan Chambers admitting personal responsibility”. Makes you think Alan wrote the radio copy and then confessed when he got his hand slapped. That’s not at all how the story played out. Please go read it for yourself. Please spare yourself a retelling and do go to the thread itself.
I can see after my 3rd attempt to get us to actually come to an agreement on terms and definitions, that, predictably, the detours have started. My favorite was: “I have a question about SIT therapy that has never been answered”. No, it’s just stated right there plainly in the framework. But, I get the point. Productive conversation will not be tolerated. I’m outta here.
Warren,
The other question that still has not been answered, is whether the SIT framework ONLY applies to clients who come in expressly desiring change. The framework is not in place for all clients all the time, right? I’m still trying to get a handle on when the framework would actually come into play in a therapy setting.
Warren,
I did read the framework, but this leads me to my next question. Since it is not a disease and not in need of change, is that fact made very clear to the client who might want to change? Do you discuss embracing the client’s innate orientation before you start dealing with change?
Mary,
Sigh…
I think your comments here are not particulary well thought out.
I am reading J&Y. But I have no idea what to make of your demands that I somehow search for and study ex-gays that are not part of any ex-gay group.
Mary, perhaps you were trying satire. I’m not sure.
But I am certain that virtually every gay person of my age was told that they had to remain in a heterosexual life and that we were born that way.
Eddy,
I share with you an acceptance of the term “ex-gay”. I think it is perhaps the best term in that it differentiates “gay” from “homosexual” (I particularly dislike “former homosexual” as I believe it is in most cases simply not true). Though I’ve searched for better, I’ve not found it yet.
However, I’m saddened by your defense of the “change” language. The goal of communication is the tranmittal of ideas. If the recipient of the statement consistently gets an incorrect message, then either you change the language… or you continue to deceive. I fear that Exodus has chosen the latter.
Also, let us be clear. The target audience for Exodus’ billboards are not gay people. Rather, I suspect that the billboards go up with political strategy in mind – look back on the locations and the timing.
As for the “faith over sexuality” comment, I understand what you mean. While it would be fine (to me) to say “I’ve chosen my faith over sexuality”, the converse (“You picked your sexuality over faith”) is indeed insulting – and inaccurate. But that is because one is about MY faith (whatever it may be) and the other is imposing on others a definition of faith they don’t share. However, my suggestion didn’t hold up to scrutiny. Sigh.
Peterson
I can see that you are very concerned about this issue, however, I’m not clear on what you mean either.
You state:
“For me it often came when these well-meaning practitioners acted naively and in ignorance of the broader although often hidden influences pressuring me to seek a change in identity, the suppression of my orientation, and in some cases the hope of actually experiencing a miraculous change.”
So we can understand exactly what you mean when you say ….”practitioners acted naively…..broader although often hidden influences” Specifically, how and in what way did the practitioners act naively and what were the broader and hidden influences? This is not clear. I think that you leave the reader wondering what you mean by this.
If you have any questions of the therapist as to intentions, etc., I think that you certainly have the right to ask at any time. Although there have been some therapists who have been accused of ethical lapses in not looking out for the best interests of the client, I really think that most therapists nowdays are quite attentive to this and rightly so. If you don’t agree with the therapist’s point of view or opinion, or mode of therapy, then you have every right to ask questions, expect answers and/or discontinue therapy with that person.
Much could be addressed by reading the SIT Framework. We state explicitly that we do not view homosexuality as a disease/disorder and we do not stigmatize as needing change.
Warren,
I have a question regarding SIT therapy that has never been answered: Does the framework operate from the understanding that being gay is not a disease and as such is not in need of change?
Eddy,
I have to agree with Timothy on the problem regarding the billboards. I too understood the billboards to mean a change from gay to straight. The problem isn’t in what is said, its in what is NOT said. The fact that SO many people have misunderstood those billboards should raise a red flag with Exodus. The change from gay to straight isn’t explicitly stated, but it appears to be implied as evidenced by all the people who seem to be “misreading” it.
Warren, I carefully read the SIT Framework months ago and have revisted it since. If you remember we had begun a discussion about them over at Ex-Gay Watch in August (see here and here). There I raised concerns and questions for you to consider, and you almost immediately posted your responses.
You will notice in my comment above that I stress that the harm I experienced came not only from those attempts to change my orientation, but also from the efforts to suppress it.
Perhaps you see yourself as someone doing different type of work from the traditional reparative therapists and ex-gay ministers that you criticize. In many ways you are. But in the SIT Framework, as you have so far presented it, I see a similarity of practices and theories that I sometimes encountered in my own ex-gay past. These were designed to help me suppress or box in my same-sex desires in order to adhere to religious expectations. These practices and theories, presented by well-meaning but ill-informed practicioners, brought me more harm than good.
Beyond the obvious conflict between my Evangelical Protestant Christian beliefs and my sexuality, I have grown to understand several other non-religious factors that strongly influenced my desire to attain congruence with my same-sex attractions and my faith. These factors along with the faith issues propelled me onto a quest that lasted nearly two decades as an ex-gay.
Since I only know you from your blog and a few short phone conversations, I am unaware of your background and experience with lesbian, gay and bisexual people and the issues that affect our lives. I’ve always had the impression that you do not have a gay past yourself and do not struggle with same-sex attractions. From that I infer that you do not personally know the experiences of someone with same-sex attractions living in the US and especially those connected the Evangelical Protestant Christian church. Also, I do not know what sort of exposure you have had to the diversity of gay, lesbian and bisexual people. It may be extensive or it may be limited.
About the harm I have encountered as a result of my ex-gay experiences I wrote,
You responded directly to this statement,
Your response to my words unearths for me one of the concerns I currently hold about SIT and your own understanding of the core issues. That these hidden influences are not obvious to you, reveals to me that you need to spend more time researching the topic. Your response confirms for me that interaction with ex-gay survivors will aid you in developing the SIT Framework.
It also tells me that you need to consider spending more time exploring the many factors that have pressured folks like me to seek out help when faced with my same-sex attractions. You only hint at these pressures and factors in the SIT Framework. The average straight therapist/counselor, Christian or otherwise. using your guidelines, will need these pressures and factors outlined and detailed, or very likely, they will naively overlook the internal and external pressues too often masked as a faith struggle. Sadly this has happened far too many times already, and concerned pracitioners have the responsibility to safeguard that this will not happen again or at least strive to limit the possibility.
In short, for someone like myself who has spent extensive time at the receiving end of a broad diversity of ex-gay therapies and ministries, and has since been in contact with at least 1000 ex-gay survivors, from considering your SIT Framework and your responses to the considerations I have mentioned, I believe you still have important work to do to better understand the issues at hand. And I believe you possess the intelligence and passion needed to broaden your understanding.
Eddy said: “I’m sorry that thousands may misread that to mean ‘complete change’.
In june of 2007, EXODUS’s nationwide radio campaign, with Alan Chambers admitting personal responsibility, promised : “Sudden, radical and COMPLETE CHANGE” — five months ago! Not thirty years ago!
Even Eddy called it “hype”. Funny how hurting and confused young gay people, desperately seeking to be accepted by family, society and church could “misread” something like that. They should know better.
JAG–
I see now that MY definition of bi-sexual was also ‘charged’ with extra meaning. I have always seen it as the EMBRACING of both attractions as I mentioned earlier. But your definition…of simply HAVING the attractions…makes sense. LOL! If it took me this long to get it, don’t hold your breath on my being able to get that through to all of ‘ex-gaydom’ or the conservative church too quickly.
BRK–
I’m posting before heading out to work so this will be brief. Being in the ministry full time didn’t allow me to focus on my own life the way I wanted. I mentioned a few weeks back that I have a number of concerns about life, politics, spirituality, etc. that aren’t connected to homosexuality. As long as I was in the ministry, people seemed to only hear or want to hear what I said or did in this area. I went off in search of a more balanced and well-rounded me. I was actually totally silent on homosexual issues until I learned of the discussions here and thought it might be an avenue where I could make a difference and still keep my life balance.
These stories are everywhere and easy to find, sadly.
Jag,
Yes, you are right – they are everywhere and easy to find and it is sad. I want the other individual who has suffered the same harm, but in a different way, to have a voice as well. Sadly, you do not find their stories everywhere and they are not easy to find because no one seems to care about them, or if they do it is in a villifying way, and that is really sad.
Jag,
I have assessed that in depth and as you know have taken a strong and unwavering stand against it or anything like it. In fact, my responses have been, are, and will continue to be immediate and do not require an examination of any potential moral dilemma. My questions to Dr. Throckmorton were not meant to address the circumstances or individuals you are referring to, rather what I wrote.
Eddy,
Just curious…why are you no longer an Exodus leader? You do seem to have some very good thoughts and ideas in the ex-gay arena.
Eddy,
Glad I checked back – didn’t think I would get a response to my post.
And I’m glad that *you* are responding, having been an Exodus minister, and because of the comment you made about 30 years means that Exodus is saying things in perspective, whereas at the first, everyone was getting their feet wet.
The man to whom I refer is both: Exodus ministry leader *and* personal (albeit long distance) friend of mine. He is also someone I am positive that you know. But, as his revealing my identity to someone would be amiss, so I cannot reveal his to the board. I am sure that you understand and most likely agree.
I considered his response of “what else of you needs healing for you to be able to marry the one you believe God gave you (in my case)” sounded very shame and failure based. (I already feel enough failure.) I talked with ex-gay ministries for 4 solid years and found a revolving door phenomenon and double lives. Consistently.
I happen to be gay celibate for an extremely long time and yet never transitioned to hetero in the core of my make-up/dynamic — whatever you want to call it. At the least it would make marriage a challenge.
My ministry friend has also been gay celibate for very long, dates, yet never marries. After my journey, I began to become suspicious as to why he never takes (took) the plunge either. Genuine straights have trouble (most of them) getting to the marriage bed without fornicating; they don’t find partners as disinterested as they. Personally, I consider that an aberration of genuine heterosexuality. If both parties are willing, that is fine. But ex-gay marriage stories are replete with rejected, disheartened straight partners. Not all, but sadly many.
I also disagree with the scientific falsity that “every cell of your body tells you that you are male or female.” I believe this misnomer was started by Jerry Leach in an attempt to cement gender/sexuality.
Unfortunately (for accuracy), Jerry Leach was never a biology major. Space doesn’t permit the expounding of the intersexism phenomenon which is well documented in humans (not merely earthworms).
It is comments such as these which I hear ex-gay ministers make which leave me wondering how deep the denial truly is.
Thanks for resending the link, Peterson. It worked fine. I’ve read through once and am still digesting. JAG mentioned specific interest in my thoughts. Much of what was said echoes Michael’s statement. Other than that, I”m reluctant to comment directly. It just feels inapproriate to be having a Peterson Toscano blog discussion on Warren’s site when it hasn’t been presented by Warren. I’m sure though that as our conversations go on, if others bring a point or two to the table (lol, there were 9 categories and 16 subpoints), we can give them some attention.
Jag,
I looked at those and I totally agree that many of those things happen – not just to ex ex gays but to ex gays and gays as well within the church. I defintely feel that the church needs a better response to people who have same sex attraction – whether those individuals who experience such attraction embrace that, change that, or whatever. The church seems to make homosexuality out to be a “worst” sin on some sin heirarchy and disenfranchise those people. My heart hurts over the isolation that people face (myself included) as my gay frineds were quick to “disown” me and I had to tiptoe around my liberal parents who are disgusted with the hatred and ignorance that pours out from the church. Me too. But is is changing – however slowly. And therapists, clergy, pastors and other lay people are slowly getting the message of compassion and care for all individuals from such outsry. Being attracted to the opposite sex is not going to be a mandatory credit for acceptance.
Some (and I think very few) have felt the warm fuzzies from the church on this whole issue. I think the whole issue is mired by politics, money, and fear. (That was just off the top of my head – I may have more later) Thank you for asking.
JAG,
I suggest to you that the science is more and more revealing to us that sexuality is on a continuum and therefore it is extremely unfair to categories those who have some level of same-sex attraction as gay. It is very unlikely that that fits for all.
Look at the latest edition of Science Mind Magazine and the article by Robert Epstein. I think this sums it up quite nicely. We are all somewhere along the spectrum of sexual attraction to both sexes and as the article indicates there are varying levels of flexibiltiy for each of us. For this reason I have happily embraced the change that has very much occurred for me.
Jag,
Because an individual has and struggles with these attractions, does that mandate a label be attached to them by others? Many who have these feelings, choose not to follow through with them and do not want to be defined by them, therefore, do not want any label in this regard attached to them.
Ann –
One thing you may also want to assess are the multitude of individuals who grow up with SSA in the church, lead moral upstanding lives, and yet are told by the church they are wrong, sick, will go to hell, etc..and those who are abandoned, emotionally/physically abused by their families etc…when they do not, choose not to, or cannot change. The emotional damage of this, and the effect of society’s continued stigma and discrimination likely has immeasurable rammifications.
These stories are everywhere and easy to find, sadly.
Dr. Throckmorton,
Have you ever seen or heard of any hurt “in the name of change” from the individuals who come to you for therapy for unwanted SSA, or anyone else you know, who have been emotionally hurt or negatively affected by those who they have previously sought help from for their unwanted SSA including those who hold themselves up as professionals (school counselors clergy, therapists, various organizations) or society in general, who told them they do not believe in, nor should the person seeking help believe in, the validity of SIT or any other therapy to help with their unwanted SSA? They are instead told to seek therapy and/or support to help them accept that which they do not want – a gay identity. They are told they will be disingenuous or insincere if they try to live any other way. What are the direct consequences to a person’s emotional well being when they reach out to a professional or friend or family or organized religion for help to modify that which is not in alignment with their personal values and are met with these answers? If you have known anyone who has had these experiences, can you describe their feelings and how the hurt has affected them? If you haven’t, do you know anyone through research, studies, or colleagues who has been affected and can you describe their experiences?
Mary and Eddy –
Take a look at Peterson Toscano’s website he references in comment 59402. I’d be interested in your thoughts, from the other side of things.
As for Exodus comments made above, I found it interesting, this disortion they say:
“Someone who struggles with unwanted homosexual desires is not a homosexual.”
Really? I suppose they may be bisexual, but clearly, they are not following the commonly held definition of what homosexuality is. The scientific community largely believes that homosexuality is the attraction toward the same sex…it is not contingent on whether you wish to have that desire.
Exodus does a bit of distorting here…and likely uses that to continue to distinguish between their ideal of becoming ex-gay and the notion of bisexuality.
Again, whether or not you WANT the urges, does not negate the fact that you have them. If you have sexual attraction toward those of the same sex, and develop simultaneous attraction toward the opposite sex…you’re bisexual.
This seems a sticking point, and I understand this. The church isn’t exactly welcoming to bisexuals, but if you claim your distaste for one direction on the spectrum…they seem limitedly welcoming, even if you continue to have dual-attractions – which seems to be bisexuality by another name because you are attempting to act unidirectionally.
My argument is that churches should be welcoming and open to all. If we know that some individuals who attempt ex-gay therapy will remain celibate but struggle with same-sex thoughts (gay, but not acting on this), some will lead heterosexual lives and not act on their ongoing same-sex attractions (bisexual), and some will decide not to live celibately or with continued bisexual urges (gay)…shouldn’t the church necessarily be open to everyone?
Science has been pretty clear thus far on this fact…not everyone, with the best of efforts or intentions can alter their orientation. If this is true, not welcoming these individuals, not supporting legislation to protect them in housing and employment, marriage, etc… sounds like discrimination to me.
The more we discover about ex-gays, gay/lesbians, bisexuality, etc.. the more science is discrediting the position of the conservative evangelical church. A prediction is that it will change its stance in the next 15 years.
Welcome FG68AT–
You have a lot of good questions. Many of us here have been trying to answer them ourselves. I’m glad to know that you have knowledge of the internet and that you have been reading for the past 6 years.
I hope you’ll understand when I say that I don’t think we can answer all of your questions. Your comment had about a years worth of good topics for us to discuss. I hope that Warren will make most of them topics for discussion.
A few of your questions though are connected to what we’ve been talking about on this particular topic. You asked ‘what is change’? I was involved with Exodus as a ministry leader for more than 10 years and I presented a definition of ‘change’ in my post 58979 above. What do you think of that definition?
I honestly believe that we can’t move on to a lot of the other questions until we at least come to an agreement on some basic definitions.
I hope you’ve noticed that this site is not ‘gay’, ‘ex-gay’ or ‘ex-ex-gay’. People who post here might fall into one of those categories or also be a concerned friend or supporter of people who have concerns in matters of faith and sexuality. So, you should get a good mix of opinions here. I think we’re trying to discover whether, despite or differing opinions, we can come to ANY agreements on definitions before we make any progress in our discussions.
There isn’t a website where Warren actually discusses issues with Exodus. Several Exodus leaders from the U.S., though, do drop in on this blogsite and make comments occasionally. It rarely turns into a full-blown discussion though.
Sorry, i read Christian, Ex-Gay an Ex-Ex-Gay documents about 6 years in the internet.
I must say i know different ways of same-sex life. I know a man hwo had same-sex expiriance and is now married. I know a old friend hwo “takes all, what have a hole”
What is Change? What change? What better way? Better than what? Changing from what to where?
Is this a theme what only changed people understand?
* “change of risky behavior” is clear. Or what is really risky? Promicuity, different sex-actions? / “change from avoidance to acceptance” sounds sweet / “change from fusion to defusion” i don’t understand, i think my english is not so well, i’m german.
What say Warren when a client comes and say: “I must change, because it is the only way to love god?” / “I need to change, otherwise i am out of church?” / “I need to change, otherwise my parents throw me out the house”
What solutions are in this cases?
And i read sometimes in conservative forums the storys: “I knew someone that changed. He is now married. It is possible. I know it. When he can made it, you can also” What schould i say those people?
Read APA? “These are not sciencific, these people discriminate my friend”
Read NARTH? These says what? “Change is possible, many are married. Homosexuality is verry bad and very dangerous. The lifespann of ALL homosexual people ist lower.”
Exodus-FAQ: How does a homosexual person change? http://exodus.to/content/view/44/87/ (only PDF!): “We believe freedom from homosexuality is increasingly experienced as men and women mature through ongoing submission to the lordship of Christ and His Church.” Strong same-sex-feelings? No women? -> not enough what? Freedom IS possible! What is freedom? Not to have it? Not to be a sexmaniac, which have no partner because he can not let it be?
What’s your “success rate” in changing gays into straights? http://exodus.to/content/view/43/87/ : “What you are really asking is whether there is realistic hope … YES! … some lines later at last: … On the statistical side, … 30-50% are not unusual” How does they know, what i want? I want the statistic!
Can a person be gay and still be a Christian? http://exodus.to/content/view/45/87/ So i must say, i live in sin and make no change, stay in the sin and live good. I have read only one German expirience somthing like this. He leaves the church. http://dbna4you.dbna.de/webforum/viewtopic.php?t=3862
What can I do to make a gay person change? http://exodus.to/content/view/49/87/ “… No … They must be motivated for themselves to want to change. But you definitely can play a very important part in assisting Christians to overcome homosexuality or lesbianism. …. Don’t discount your ability to help someone leave homosexuality” Go do it, help him to overcome and leave. Motivate him!
“Overcome homosexuality” means? It is equal with change?
“leave homosexuality” means? It is equal with change? Means this only no sex und suffer with closeness? Mens this no risky lifestyle? Or mean this: “You are heterosexual, you have only homosexual affection You can leave it and you are hetero and can marry”?
How can I love homosexuals and hate homosexuality? http://exodus.to/content/view/317/87/ : “Those trapped in the deception of homosexuality are people in need of healing. They are hurt and broken people who need ….” Good. Im am broken people. Only when i’m not trapped in the homosexual, i’m not broken.
Is there a place for the homosexual in the local church? http://exodus.to/content/view/320/87/: “Someone who struggles with unwanted homosexual desires is not a homosexual. Someone who practiced homosexuality in the past is not a homosexual simply because of their past struggles.” Good. it goes all about the sex. The most important thing is no sex, to struggle with the desire. What is with intimicy which can lead propably to sex? (Cuddling, live in the same apartment or house, etc.)
Above warren wrote: “but much of what you write is directed at therapists and ministries that put strong emphasis on change as necessary for success.” Is there anywhere in the net some discussion between throckmorton and exodus?
I’m confused.
Eddy, sorry, I’ve been off-line all day and just saw your comment. Here is the link. Ex-Gay Harm–Let Me Count the Ways
timothy,
J & S studied change and of those who had entered into some sort of therapy within the last two years. I guess you did not read the study – it did study those who have been an ex gay for years and years now. Aaaand it only studied those associated with some sort of ministry such as EXODUS. Please, please get the facts.
There are more people out there – have you studied them?? The answer is no and the idea that you are looking for others is also no. Plainly put – you are not interested in ex gays – otherwise you would have (at the very least) read the most recent book.
Peterson–
I tried to follow your link to your discussion of the harms…can’t get through. But I’m very interested in taking a look at them. Can you relink or copy the comments here?
JAG–
I appreciate the distinctions you are bringing to light. I can’t remember how many discussions I’ve had where I’ve first had to disassociate myself from some nutjob I’d never met.
I’m likely the chief defender of the terms ‘ex-gay’ and ‘change’. Exodus has pondered trying to find new terms and I have been challenging the need to do that.
“Ex-gay” means simply “from a gay background”. It was a term coined to help people who shared this experience to find each other.
“Change” simply means change. In behavior, in perspecive, in lifestyle, in the degree and intensity of temptation.
My ‘ultimate’ dream is that we could agree on these definitions. From there forward, we could discuss when specific individuals or instances deviated from those meanings. Given the overpromises that led off Michael’s list, we wouldn’t reject the definition of change I presented. Instead, we’d actually be defining the ‘over’ part. If it goes much beyond my definition, it should be evaluated as a potential overpromise.
The same logic would apply to ‘ex-gay’. We accept the basic definition I supplied and then discuss when individuals or instances loaded the term with more meaning. Over the years, people have tried to confront public speakers with trick, loaded or baited questions in their attempt to ‘expose’ the truth. This tactic backfires.
In their attempt to ask the question, they’ll inadvertently toss in a loaded term (‘orientation’ is a prime example). The term means something different to the questioner, the questioned…and likely has different shades of meaning throughout the assembled guests. Actually, the best question I can think of is one that’s not embellished at all: What do YOU mean by ex-gay? (or What do YOU mean by change?) Heck, make it a routine. I WANTED people to ask what I meant. I WANTED a chance to explain it further.
In a mixed public gathering, you might have ultra-conservatives, conservative Christians, mainline denominational Christians, gay activists, gay Christian activists, ex-gays, –oh, and a reporter who did 15 minutes worth of prep for the topic at hand. (LOL! I think I’ve got it. We’ll have a nice poster done up that would sit on an easel next to the Exodus speaker. There would be only two things on the poster: the definition of ‘change’ and the definition of ‘ex-gay’. LOL! I was half-joking but am now wondering if this could maybe actually work.)
Timothy–
Much of what I addressed to JAG was actually in a ‘forever lost’ comment that I was attempting to post last night in response to your post 58648. Took me about an hour, I had edited, proofed, etc. and was scrolling up to check a spelling when wham…I was back out to the topics page…and couldn’t find my hard work anywhere! Waaah!
I actually did envision coming home to a dozen or more snarky billboard suggestions. I like your suggestion. It’s been considered before. “Faith over Sexuality”. Wouldn’t Michael (and you?) feel that it implies that you DON’T have faith? I swear we had a discussion on this blog once where someone said it implies that THEY’VE chosen ‘Sexuality over Faith’.
The real question seems to be …why do you and everyone you know…take a simple phrase like ‘gays can change’ and leap to the conclusion that you do? “Jesus changed my life”. Am I rich now? Am I tall(er)? Do I no longer tend towards gluttony and sloth? Do I get angry? Self-absorbed? I mean, I said he ‘changed MY LIFE’. But, when you heard me say that, you didn’t assume that EVERYthing changed. Nor did you assume that I’d never have another struggle, worry or care. Why do you all take the ‘gays can change’ statement and interpret it differently?
I honestly believe that there isn’t a message Exodus could post on a billboard that wouldn’t be misread or misinterpreted. But, it seems to me, that people ought to understand that a billboard is a billboard. If someone advertises ‘luxurious condos’ and your notion of ‘luxurious’ differs from theirs, are they deceptive? Wouldn’t you question, rather than assume, what they meant by luxurious before signing any paperwork? So, Exodus promises ‘change’ on a billboard. Did they provide a phone number or address? Give ’em a holler and ask what they mean by ‘change’. If you don’t like what they’re offering, move on. A traffic sign tells you what to do; a billboard is an advertisement. It is inviting you to learn more about the product advertised. If you spent no money and only wasted a 15 minute phone call, I can’t see ‘hurt’. (If they demand that you come in for a face to face before they’ll answer the question, THEN I see the beginning of ‘hurt’.)
LOL! I’m not going to edit or proof…can’t take that chance again. Have a good day all! Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.
Concerned –
I agree with you that we should “accept where individuals are rather than judge where you think they should be,” but you go on to do just that…stating:
“I cannot say the same for so many on the progay side who just cannot accept that many who struggle with SSA can find a better way by changing the behaviours you mentions and in so doing find that their orientation is changed.”
I think you have people on both sides who judge the other. Sure there are people who criticize those who wish to alter their same-sex attractions, but there are myriads who criticize those who are gay also – so let’s be fair in our assessment.
I don’t think that everyone with a same-sex orientation should change, can change, or wishes to. Nor do I think that, for everyone, attempting to change your orientation is necessarily a “better way.” I think it is up to the individual to determine what way best suits them, and what will make them the most congruent with their sense of self, faith and identity. If they find a sense of inner peace, who am I to say that there is only one way to reach that, or only one way is moral? I applaud everyone who has the courage to live honestly and attempt to have the life they dream – regardless of their orientation or place on the spectrum. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, ex-gay, etc…they should all have equal seats around the table.
Your notion also, that those with SSA “find a better way by changing the behaviors…” and “find that their orientation is changed” is a bit of a myth. You don’t just change behaviors and poof, you’re straight. Many gay/lesbian people don’t have behaviors that vary much from your own. Being gay or ex-gay is a lot more than what you do…
Best of luck to you as you discern this topic.
BRK–
okay, my morning coffee hasn’t processed yet but I’m stumbling over your post. You said: “I would like to give a personal example of what a very well known Exodus ministry’s leader said to me recently in a telephone conversation…”
Then in your wrap-up: “Incidentally, my friend to whom I refer to above has dating relationships with women for decades (different ones), but none lead to marriage.”
You seemed to be reporting a firsthand personal telephone conversation–“Exodus ministry’s leader said to me”–two people. Are you saying that the ‘friend to whom I refer’ is the Exodus leader?
That brings us to an interesting distinction between an Exodus ministry leader and a professional therapist. The ministry leader is often a paraclete–one called alongside to help. They are ‘in there with you’ and real friendships do develop. A professional therapist, most often, does not become your friend.
The friendships themselves are neither good nor bad but a leader or counselor needs to remember that, in matters of spirituality and sexuality, their words tend to carry more weight. (As a counselor, I would never tell a client ‘you should’ do anything. As a friend, though, I’m chock full of both opinions and advice. I need to be careful that my personal opinions don’t get mistaken for spiritual guidance.)
LOL! There’s been a lot said this morning. Think I’ll grab another cup and come back.
Warren,
You are right. You show us how to accept where individuals are at rather than judge where you think they should be. I cannot say the same for so many on the progay side who just cannot accept that many who struggle with SSA can find a better way by changing the behaviours you mentions and in so doing find that their orientation is changed.
So, you refer out those who wish to align with their same-sex attractions, or do you assist them as well?
I just thought in Sexual Identity Therapy that you work toward alignment in both directions…as you say, allowing the client to set the direction.
Jag – Defining change is a real issue here. I do work for some kinds of change – change of risky behavior, change from avoidance to acceptance, change from fusion to defusion, etc. However, I do not say to anyone, if you work with me, your orientation will change. So no, I do not work for change in the sense that I think you might mean it (was that tentative enough?).
You haven’t been around long enough here to read the cases you ask about but I have spoken to them before. It is a fair assessement though that most clients who consult me desire congruence with a traditional sexual ethic. However, I will say again, the client sets the value direction. If a therapist for whatever reason cannot go there, then it is time to refer.
Wow…there are so many good points, and I think we’re crossing our wires a bit…
Eddy, I have to say, that I agree with you that if you examine closely Exodus’ notion of “change,” it does not guarantee complete change from one orientation to another. Saying that, I agree with what Timothy said in that when they advertise that “change is possible,” etc..they are, at times I think, intentionally misleading to a largely uneducated public. Given the amount of difficulties many gay/lesbian people face in their lives as a result of their orientation – at home, work, with family, church, etc..they often go running, with little examination into “the fine print.” This does many a great disservice that leaves them feeling “not good enough, not christian enough, etc..” It certainly doesn’t help to have quacks like Richard Cohen out there verbalizing that all can become “straight.”
One of the problems, as I see it, is that there is no differentiation between the Richard Cohen’s proclaiming ex-gay therapy, and anyone else…they are all lumped in together – and subsequently either jumped into by many without forethought or discretion as to what program they decide to try, or disregarded by many seeing it all as a bunch of ludicrous false promises. Exodus does not help their stance by misleading the consumers who don’t happen to read “the fine print.”
These misleading messages that all can change really hurts everyone – the consumers who are attempting to live more in line with their values, those who wish to study it, and those who are happy with their identity as gay. The truth needs to get out there – and I’m not sure everyone wants it to, frankly.
If the “truth” is really that of all people seeking to alter their orientation, not everyone can achieve this, then where does that leave us with gay rights? When we know that some people do find a level of change, where does that lead? Both are pathways many do not want to open.
Warren, you stated, “I may be one of the few social conservatives to leave the zone of comfort and openly question the status quo among those who work toward change. And I have been clear that I work for congruence with values rather than focus on change.”
But, you do focus on change. I haven’t heard you discussing cases or instances where you have helped someone who is struggling with orientation resolve it toward their same-sex orientation. Certainly not every single instance of possible homosexuality must be resolved in a more heterosexual direction to be consistent with someone’s beliefs or faith.
I hope that what we are oneday able to do on this topic, is discuss it in truth. Mary is absolutely right – we know very little about sexuality. So maybe before we go jumping on bandwagons, making pronouncements in certainty, and criticizing those who experience change or those who live congruous in their gay identity – we need to take a step back and realize we don’t know it all yet…and what we do know, may indicate that we’re all in this together – gay, straight, ex-gay, bi, etc. We should speak with respect toward each other and start building bridges to greater understanding. All of us could use the enlightenment.
Peterson said:
Thanks for stopping by Peterson.
What you have written leads me to wonder if you have read the SIT Framework. We do not call for therapists to work with clients for change of orientation. We recognize that the science of orientation is not settled, we do not know how as therapists we would measure orientation absent self-report and we question whether change is even the important issue for most clients seeking integration of faith and sexual desire. Not focusing on change may bring along other issues but much of what you write is directed at therapists and ministries that put strong emphasis on change as necessary for success. We do not say change can’t ever happen but the SIT Framework is not reparative therapy. If you haven’t read it, I ask you to do so. If you have read it, can you point out the aspects of it that concern you or that you feel would lead to the kinds of outcomes we both want to prevent.
You seem to presume that I have not read the Ex-ex-gay stories or that I have not heard out those who have gone through ex-gay ministries. This is not true as I have done both.
You wrote:
Could you unpack this? I am not ignorant of the fact that conservative Christianity, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, and other faiths have a sexual ethic that limits the expression of sex. These are not hidden. And so, I am not sure what you mean here. I would like to get to the crux of your criticism of me and the SIT Framework.
Warren, I find it admirable and essential that a therapist like yourself take the time to critique the work of your peers as well as those individuals and groups that provide various forms of therapies and ministries with the intent to help others change or suppress their sexual orientation.
As an ex-gay survivor, someone who has experienced harm as a direct result of the ex-gay process that I introduced into my own life and received from ex-gay providers and promoters, I have seen that it is not a matter of bad people doing bad things to others in order to harm them. Rather too often we find good and sincere people acting naively, and as a result, unwittingly causing damage where they intended to bring blessing.
Without carefully considering the various types of harm experienced by ex-gay survivors, and then connecting with these survivors to determine the causes, someone like yourself with the SIT guidelines may end up opening the door to further harm all the time while you strive to aid those you who come to those therapists who may one day use your guidelines.
Sadly my experience with you thus far has demonstrated that you react defensively to questions. You quickly point to the faults of others who have gone before you, and you deflect criticism often with a barrage of psychological language that to me seems like a strategy to silence concerned critics hoping to better understand and improve upon what you attempt to do.
As you seek to build a framework that you expect other mental health providers will use, many of whom have limited knowledge and experience with LGBT people, my hope is that you seriously and thoughtfully consider the many ways that ex-gay survivors like myself have experienced harm.
The unfortunate and real suffering I brought into my life, all the while assisted by loving and kind ministers and therapists, did not simply come from outlandish practices and faulty promises. For me it often came when these well-meaning practitioners acted naively and in ignorance of the broader although often hidden influences pressuring me to seek a change in identity, the suppression of my orientation, and in some cases the hope of actually experiencing a miraculous change.
Spending time with people on the other side of ex-gay, those who have been through the experiences and have spent time looking back unpacking them, you may find that for many of us have struggled with much much more than an incongruence with our faith and our desires. This struggle needs to be explored and then explained in detail for those therapists and counselors seeking to help people with their “unwanted same-sex attractions.”
I encourage you to read the narratives of the various ex-gay survivors over at Beyond Ex-GAy
At my blog I recently outlined the various types of harm experienced by the many survivors I have met over the past 4.5 years. These include psychological, emotional, spiritual, physical, developmental, and sexual harm as well as damage to relationships, finances, and career. Over a dozen survivors have added comments giving specific examples of the harm they encountered in their areas.
Most effective of all, I hope you can find and create opportunities to sit down and hear the stories of ex-gay survivors directly. Perhaps you can even do the first serious study that looks at the various types of harm and their causes so that you do not reproduce the same or a similar tragic cycle as those well-meaning care providers who have gone before you.
Ann said in post 58297:
As we learn things about this subject, isn’t it possible that change in words and attitudes can take place for the better?
Yes, it is possible.
If Exodus is now changing how they are wording phrases, etc. to be be more in line with what is known now than before, isn’t that a good thing?
The problem is I don’t believe the conditional part of this statement. Ex-gay ministries started changing their language when their poster boys, like John Paulk, were getting caught cruising gay bars. I don’t believe these organizations suddenly gained new knowledge. Other than the fact that they weren’t going to be able to cover up that their poster boys hadn’t really be become straight.
I would like to give a personal example of what a very well known Exodus ministry’s leader said to me recently in a telephone conversation when I told him that I could not bring myself to heterosexually marry even though I had the opportunity:
“Well what part of you needs healing?” And — “Taking a step of faith and going ahead — God can do great things.”
Well, yes He can. But that doesn’t mean that I can be heterosexually stable or faithful as many other “ex-gays” can attest.
This conversation was three weeks ago, not thirty years ago.
Incidentally, my friend to whom I refer to above has dating relationships with women for decades (different ones), but none lead to marriage. They seem to be largely asexual in nature. Leave it to each man or woman to define “healing”, but I get the sense that the women he dates don’t want heterosexual sex anymore than he does!
Mary,
Ex gays are not studied. I guess if you do not define them then they do not exist?? We are so invisible it is not even funny.
Just last month Jones and Yarhouse released a study on ex-gays. Last year Tanya Erzen released a book that I thought was pretty enlightening about her year with Frank Worthen’s group. And there’s always Spitzer’s telephone study.
I agree that more could be done. But there just aren’t that many ex-gay folks out there to study.
As best I can tell, there aren’t more than a few thousand people in the US that identify as ex-gay and none of the studies could get more than a couple hundred participants.
Timothy,
How would you feel if you were made to stay and remain in a heterosexual life that you just were questioning, doubting, did not feel good about etc??
Would that make you heterophobic? Or, self loathing?
Beleive it or not there are gay people who question their sexuality.
Can you imagine having to stay in a life because a majority of the people said you had to and were born that way???
I can imagine the pain I would be suffering if I were made to believe that I had to be gay (just because I once was).
In other words, Timothy, flip the coin and look at the other side – just once – please – just once. Not the side of hate but the side of being able to decide for yourself how to live. We are not so different people who struggle to find acceptance, love, etc…
Eddy,
It’s a billboard…short and catchy. AND, Exodus is using the basic dictionary definition of ‘change’. I’m sorry that thousands may misread that to mean ‘complete change’ or ‘change of orientation’ but those words aren’t there.
Stop for a minute and think about this. Be fair, as you usually are.
I know that when I read it, I though Exodus was claiming a change from a gay person into a straight person. In fact, everyone I ever interacted with who had read the billboard had the same impression.
No one – not a single solitary person – thought that this meant some sort of partial change, or a move to celibacy, or improving heterosexual functioning, or managing same-sex attractions, or a change of attitude, or a change of mind, or growth in Christ, or ANYTHING other than a change from gay to straight. That’s what the words seemed to be saying.
Now maybe YOU knew it meant a process… but the billboard wasn’t there to reach you. And I really do believe, Eddy, that if you stop and think about it you will agree that 99% of the people reading the billboard read it like I did.
If Exodus wants to be honest – truly honest – it needs to be clear and not use deceptive language, whether intentional or not. Exodus can’t limit its candor to inside the lecture hall. It has to be truthful and forthright when it speaks to legislators, when it testifies to Christian media, and yes when it puts up billboards and runs ads.
If I were in charge of Exodus’ billboard, I might pick something like “Choosing Faith over Sexuality”. I’m sure there are more that are much better than that. But it wasn’t really that hard to come up with something that didn’t imply full reorientation.
Ex gays are not studied. I guess if you do not define them then they do not exist?? We are so invisible it is not even funny.
Ken–
Can I get the address for that mind-reading course you’ve taken? I’ve always wanted to KNOW the motives of strangers myself and skills such as yours would be invaluable.
I find your statement audacious. I also think the censorship game against Exodus needs to stop. If they tried to say it was sin on a billboard, the screams of protest would be immediate. If they use a Bible verse such as “The truth will set you free”, their opponents scream: “You’re not defining ‘free'” and/or “you’re preaching at us.” And when Exodus says “thousands have changed”, well, there you go again. It’s a billboard…short and catchy. AND, Exodus is using the basic dictionary definition of ‘change’. I’m sorry that thousands may misread that to mean ‘complete change’ or ‘change of orientation’ but those words aren’t there. In times past, in conversations with Michael and with Jayhuck, we’ve discussed ‘change’ and I’ve demonstrated that Exodus has ALWAYS presented a process. Only a few extreme charismatics promised ‘radical and sudden’ change, heterosexuality or ‘complete’ change. There was a strong wave of that back during Michael’s involvement approximately 30 years ago and Michael seems to think that attitude prevails today. He has a number of people who are quick to jump on his bandwagon shouting “here, here” but, you soon find out, that most of their ‘information’ is total hearsay. I’ve asked repeatedly on this blogsite for substitute words for ‘change’ or ‘ex-gay’ but none have been presented. (The simple truth is that a lot of people don’t like Exodus’ message at all…and, no matter what Exodus advertised, they’d find fault with it. oh yeah….censorship.)
I have an idea: You seem to know Exodus’ message and intent, what wording would you suggest for a billboard? We’ll want to get across that we’re Christian and that if you’re thinking that gay is not right–or not right for you, you might want to check us out. If you come up with something that seems worthwhile, I’ll pass it on.
Your statement that it’s ‘only a recent response to the negative publicity they’ve been getting’ is totally offbase. It’s long been of public record that Frank Worthen admits to still being homosexually tempted. It’s been a number of years since Joe Dallas and Alan Chambers first made similar statements. I was a popular invited workshop teacher at Exodus conferences and my topics were: The Reality of Temptation, Lessons for the Battlefield, Reckoning with the Roots. Where do you read the message of ‘instant’ or ‘complete’ change in their disclosures or in my teachings? I actually told people that if they ever reach the day when they think they’ll never have another homosexual temptation, BEWARE, for they’re surely on their way.
Ann-
Thanks. I needed that.
Mary,
Good for you- Timothy – do you study people who change??
I’m sorry. I don’t understand the question. Can you please reword it?
And also, could you please clarify what harms you were talking about?
Yet, ex-gays have had a growing profile for the past 30 years and psychology still hasn’t studied, defined or tried to understand. THAT hurts.
Eddy,
This has always been my concern and you’re right – it does hurt. It is almost like this segment of the population is not valid. If they are listened to at all, many times, if not frequently, it is with contempt or dis-trust and that hurts. Often they are not given an audience at all. I am NOT referring to any Christian or other organized religion, group, organization or zealous activist – I am referring to the individual reaching out for help in understanding themself and is met with this contempt or worse, indifference. This is unconscionable and yet it is still happening and it hurts. All the surveys and studies and research in the world will never be accurate because they will not include those who have chosen to be anonymous in their decision to separate themselves from their former identity and relationships – after watching and listening to all the noise, who can blame them?
Ken,
As we learn things about this subject, isn’t it possible that change in words and attitudes can take place for the better? If Exodus is now changing how they are wording phrases, etc. to be be more in line with what is known now than before, isn’t that a good thing? No one can change the past – all any of us can do is recognize what was wrong with it and make the appropriate changes now. That goes for everyone – it is important to realize that hurt has been inflicted in words and phrases from both sides of this issue and neither one is neccessary or effective.
Eddy said in post 57970:
Pardon my caps but EXODUS DOES PROMISE CHANGE; IT DOES NOT PROMISE ‘CHANGED SEXUAL ORIENTATION’.
But Exodus deceives people into thinking the change they promise is a change in orientation. When they put up billboards that say “Thousands have changed!” they know perfectly well people are going to think they mean changed from gay to straight. This claim of “well, we don’t mean a change in orientation” is only a recent response to the negative publicity they have been getting.
The hurtful message is: “You must change. Only bad, un-Christian people don’t change. Sudden, radical and complete change! Of course, we can’t actually define the “change”, but our glistzy advertizing, “Christianese” and “hype” makes it sound like one becomes heterosexual — IF one loves God enough, has enough faith, tries hard enough, wants it badly enough, prays hard enough, etc.”
Michael, thank you for these words. I wanted to reprint all of your post because I think what you said is so important it bares repeating. You beautifully expressed how some of us view the message coming from the Ex-Gay industry.
Good for you- Timothy – do you study people who change??
Michael,
I am sorry you adopted that message and sent it out to others. I’m sure you feel convicted. It has been my experience that some people in the christian community are begininng to understand that change does not happen for everyone and that having same sex attraction is not a bad thing. The message you rec’d and sent out is well – outdated – thankfully. There is change in the community and we know more today than we did two/three decades ago. And we continue to understand sexuality better (so long as we continue to keep the discussion open without closing it down through intimidation) Sorry – but some people do not support your message as being that for everyone. I really am sorry you have suffered and caused suffering of others in the way that you did.
Am I having a really bad dream? I could have sworn that I was involved in well over 200 blog exchanges with Michael discussing nearly every one of the charges on his ‘new’ laundry list of hurts. Did NOTHING I say mean ANYTHING? Was there not even a dent in his understanding on these issues from my hours of blogging? Why does it seem that we’re suddenly back on square one?
Pardon my caps but EXODUS DOES PROMISE CHANGE; IT DOES NOT PROMISE ‘CHANGED SEXUAL ORIENTATION’. ‘Sexual orientation’ is a psychological term used to define a group of people with similar characteristics. Most ex-gays feel enough of a difference from psychology’s definition of ‘homosexual orientation’ to reject classifying themselves that way. They also know that they don’t fit psychology’s other ‘orientation’ categories. Not hetero, not bi. But here’s the clincher. Psychology studies people. It doesn’t tell them what to think or how to believe. It studies them, categorizes them and tries to understand them. Yet, ex-gays have had a growing profile for the past 30 years and psychology still hasn’t studied, defined or tried to understand. THAT hurts.
“You say po-TAY-to; I say po-TAH-to”…you say ‘orientation’; I say ‘temptation’. When people asked about a change in my orientation, I’d tell them about changes in the nature, degree, frequency and intensity of temptations. If they want to try to squeeze my experience into their pre-existing definition, I am not responsible for the confusion they bring on themselves. Exodus allowed that heterosexual marriage was a possibility for some but NEVER promised it to all. (Although the term hadn’t yet been invented, I had been ex-gay for 3 or 4 YEARS before I met my first married one. It was Michael. It caused quite a stir. Some got suddenly starry-eyed dreaming of eternal wedded bliss to commence immediately. Others freaked. One guy quipped, “Look, it’s okay that God has asked me to give up men. I’m cool with that. But, PLEASE, I’m NOT ready for women.”)
Many of the charges make it seem that there was no responsibility on the part of the hurt-receiver. People found Exodus; Exodus didn’t go knocking on doors. Some Exodus folks evangelized. Yet, some responded and some didn’t. What was it that already existed inside those that responded? Why didn’t they just walk on or stop to taunt as the others did? Some church folks overpromised. Some in my church did. But I went to my pastor and my spiritual advisor about it because it didn’t feel right to me. And, do you know what? If THEY also overpromised and it didn’t seem right to ME, I still wouldn’t take any ‘leap of faith’ until I felt I was ready. Fortunately, though, my church was a mix of the pie in the sky and the down to earth. My point is: Someone overpromises. It’s still up to the individual to evaluate and either receive or reject them. Or are we assuming some form of unnatural mind-control?
Michael: I’ve been reflecting on language implications. If instead of ‘sick and damaged’ they said ‘ensnared’, would you still feel hurt?
I will continue to remind others of the potential to risk harm to themselves if they don’t give their own decisions to change a chance.
Mary, what are those potential harms?
Michael,
I agree with what you are presenting here and I realize now the harm that that can do. I am grateful to not have experienced all of what you are saying and I guess this is why I so often get so upset when I hear some who say change is not possible. The truth is the extremes on either side are trying hard to manipulate what is true. Change is a difficult process, but to keep repeating that it is our genetic makeup that accounts solely for our orientation is just wrong and takes away hope for those who truly look for a better life for themselves outside of the gay subculture, weather they still have some attraction or not. My guess is that there are far more people living there life quietly and trying not to be drawn into this debate or swayed one way or the other. I choose not to accept either extreme for myself and find that fits my value system best of all.
I am also grateful to Warren for giving a voice to those who have choosen to live outside of the gay subculture and have found happiness, inspite of what the extremes want to dictate.
Karen: Sadly, it’s not just “unethical quacks” who inflict this kind of harm. Very well-intentioned, God-loving folks, in their zeal to do what they believe God has called them to do, also do great harm.
I didn’t just “suffer” it. I also unwittingly inflicted it. That’s why I issued my public apology — along with several other ex-gay leaders who have since had serious second thoughts about our harmful actions and attitudes. Growing numbers of Survivors, sincere gay and lesbian Christians are also speaking out about the harm done to them and by them as a result of the message they recieved and believed.
The hurtful message is: “You must change. Only bad, un-Christian people don’t change. Sudden, radical and complete change! Of course, we can’t actually define the “change”, but our glistzy advertizing, “Christianese” and “hype” makes it sound like one becomes heterosexual — IF one loves God enough, has enough faith, tries hard enough, wants it badly enough, prays hard enough, etc.”
If, after years of trying, one does not “change”, then one is rejected as a faithless infidel who will burn for eternity. And now we (the ones who did “change” and promised to love unconditionally) want nothing to do with you. Depart from us! You deserve to be blamed, shamed and shunned.
This harm is not the exception to the rule. Tragically, It happens all the time. The folks who do it aren’t crazy — just sadly ignorant of the potentially harmful consequences of their messages and methods. Thank God for thoughtful folks (like Warren) who are williing to invite open discussion of the issue and don’t just tell the “changeless” to shut up and go away.
This is very positive. Only rational debate and moving away from our own biases can lead us to sound conclusions and healthy outcomes for those who struggle with their sexual identity.
I will continue to remind others of the potential to risk harm to themselves if they don’t give their own decisions to change a chance. Because someone else has been harmed by the ridiculous promises, practices, and claims of another person should not prevent someone from seeking a bona fide person of training and worth to help them with change. We have learned alot from the past and unfortunately from those who have suffered at the hands of unethical quacks. I too once held in my mind the image of such people until I discovered rather randomly that not all christian counselors are crazy.
There are many sides to this story of change and while I grieve for the losses suffered my Busse and those like him, I encourage each INDIVIDUAL to make thoughtful researched quests into their lives. The rhetoric on both the gay affirming and conservative christian view has been so bought by the public depending on which side a person chooses to fall on to that few have ever really delved into the truth. We know very little about sexuality – and just because a person is gay – it does not make them an expert on homosexuality – it simply makes them gay. And just because a person is a christian does not make them the judge on the lives of gay people or the legislative body of this country (as gays are citizens too).
Eddy, Jag, I would love to sit at your table.