The New York Magazine has a lengthy examination of a married man who seeks liaisons with men. The article by David Amsden provides an inside look at a man who remains anonymous but opens up a bit about his double life and is relevant to our recent discussions. Thanks to reader NickC for making me aware of the article.
Seems to me multiple “explanations” could be advanced for this situation. I found myself wondering what I might do with this man had he come in for counseling. His values were/are not religious but he seems as if he is intent on maintaining the duplicity. What are his values then? His marriage, his child, his social standing? I have worked with such folks; those who intently value their marriage look for a counselor who will assist them to remain married, even for reasons that are not religiously motivated. I am curious what readers think of counseling that collaborates with such men to maintain a marriage if that is indeed what they value most.
I kinda agree with you ANON2 – when people don’t like a behavior (of any kind) they believe they have recieved divine word from GOD himself on the matter through subconcious (sp?) revelation.
Anon2,
I said to Sonja: It’s not that God hasn’t spoken to our conscience. It’s just that you don’t like what He had to say.
You said: Timothy, Right back at you.
You are quite mistaken, Anon2. I think you should live in accordance with the direction that you believe God is leading you.
Yet Sonja is unwilling to apply the same to me.
Let me ask you, Anon2. Would you rather have me live as I believe God is directing me, or would you have me to live in accordance with your convictions?
(and this time please answer the question rather than complain about what people shouldn’t be allowed to tell you)
jayhuck
Ok… so the fact that the straight porn industry never shows men penetrating each other doesn’t suggest that they are playing to market forces. I disagree, but fair enough.
What about the Bailey study suggesting that bisexual men were usually aroused exclusively by images of men?
http://www.gaypasg.org/GayPASG/PressClippings/2005/Jul/Straight,%20Gay%20or%20Lying-%20Bisexuality%20Revisited.htm
“I am curious what readers think of counseling that collaborates with such men to maintain a marriage if that is indeed what they value most.”
My thoughts? Individuals would not seek a therapist for “collaboration”…that is not a therapist’s function. People have always sought me as a therapist when they are having difficulties functioning in one realm or another…and this gentleman, if he is happy in his duplicity, would likely never seek a therapist to begin with. If he was looking for “collaboration,” he would likely seek out a friend. What would be my function?
Even in couples therapy, my goal is to help * the couple* decide what best suits them, their needs, determine what they want, etc…and sometimes, the resolution is not what I would personally choose for them (if I could).
If he has already made the choice…it seems I would have no work to do.
Timothy,
Right back at you.
Sonja,
It’s not that God hasn’t spoken to our conscience. It’s just that you don’t like what He had to say.
However by looking at what they sell you get a pretty good idea about what people want.
I’m not sure if everyone could be included in this – those that look at porn are usually not satisified with their sex life and are looking for a “boost”.
Drowssap
– You must have missed my message above so I’ll repeat myself – looking at straight porn doesn’t make you straight. As a gay kid growing up I looked at a great deal of straight porn, but you can believe I wasn’t looking at the woman.
Your porn industry example is bad and proves absolutely nothing. My long experience with men and what they are willing to share with me because I am gay has shown me that many self-professed straight men are actually bisexual – but our society makes it nearly impossible for them to admit that – and you can be assured many of them will go down fighting before they admit to having SSAs! That doesn’t make them completely straight
jayhuck
It isn’t that there is no such thing as bisexual porn. The fact of the matter is that it’s themes aren’t incorporated into straight porn. That makes it pretty obvious that straight guys are absolutely straight. If they weren’t the porn industry would be forced to adjust. There are exceptions to every rule but that doesn’t disprove the norm.
Mary
Ok, the porn industry is definately sleezy bottomfeeders. However by looking at what they sell you get a pretty good idea about what people want.
Several of you have touched on the question of whether it is ethical for a therapist (particularly one who purports to be a Christian) to counsel a man whose “values” include deceit, adultery, and possibly exposing his wife to STDs/HIV/AIDS without urging him to change his behavior and/or at least to inform his unsuspecting, vulnerable wife. I find it interesting in that the same God who speaks to your conscience about deceit and adultery and negligent homicide has also spoken to you about homosexuality…yet even our “Christian” counselor is comfortable doing “therapy” according to “values” that assert that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle/behavior option. Perplexing…
Using the porn industry and marketing as a meter for measuring sexual activites in the general population?? I dunno guys?
Drowssap –
When I was growing up gay all I had was straight porn, and believe me, I wasn’t looking at the women. You don’t need explicit bisexual-porn to be a bisexual – the porn industry example is a bad one.
AND, I just did a google search on bisexuals, and tons of bisexual porn sites popped up, there are also sites called MMF and FFM that don’t call themselves bisexual that popped up as well.
Trust me, the porn industry is no indication of anything – and I’ve MET men who are absolutely bisexual but would never admit it to anyone – they almost didn’t to me
Well…. I don’t know if this got in the message line-up or not….
Drowssap wrote: “Every time I read your posts about growing up I feel bad. You had a tough time with a lot of exploitive or otherwise jerky people.”
Eh… what probably made it a little more gut-wrenching was that I was in my mid-20s and lived in conservative Oklahoma, working in the oil patch (itself supposedly a man’s game). So, you don’t let yourself be known to many and when you do, and things work out like they did, then it seems like you’ve hit the jackpot and start looking into monogrammed towels. But in the end I came to look on the event to be not much different than when a woman finds her courter is a married man.
I just wanted to show that “the other man” isn’t necessarily “hip” to such things. I guess my Roman Catholic upbringng left me a bit vulnerable to such things; but there are values there, such as is inherant in monogamy, which I hold to.
Drowssap wrote: “Every time I read your posts about growing up I feel bad. You had a tough time with a lot of exploitive or otherwise jerky people.”
Eh… what probably made it a little more gut-wrenching was that I was in my mid-20s and lived in conservative Oklahoma, working in the oil patch (itself supposedly a man’s game). So, you don’t let yourself be known to many and when you do, and things work out like they did, then it seems like you’ve hit the jackpot and start looking into monogrammed towels. But in the end I came to look on the event to be not much different than when a woman finds her courter is a married man.
I just wanted to show that “the other man” isn’t necessarily “hip” to such things. I guess my Roman Catholic upbringng left me a bit vulnerable to such things; but there are values there, such as is inherant in monogamy, which I hold to.
Timothy Kincaid
Yeah, you are right my B.S. meter just went way up. That gay porn star probably isn’t faithful. Any woman interested in marrying a gay porn star probably isn’t looking for fidelity. The white picket fence is dead on that one.
jayhuck
If men are bisexual why isn’t mainstream porn bisexual? One thing is utterly consistent in straight porn, men never penetrate each other. If a lot of men were secrety bisexual we’d know it by now because the porn industry would be catering to that fantasy. The porn industry isn’t about enforcing Christian values, it is about making money.
Timothy Kincaid
Actually true, it didn’t mention if they had an open relationship.
Juayhuck.,
I think that it is all a bit of both as you say. Trying to fit anyone into a box that doesn’t quite fit is kinda buggin’ for this ex gay.
Ann – Part II
The other thing that needs to be said about bisexuality, is that it is very possible for a person to be bisexual and not know it or not want to admit it – much like gay people in the closet – Men in our society, especially mostly straight men, are NEVER, or at least ALMOST NEVER going to admit their bisexual feelings, primarily because of the restrictive and oppressive society we live in – we really don’t do right by men in this society when it comes to emotions – we don’t expect them to have any, when they actually do, we don’t expect them to be hurt emotionally, when they in fact are, and we don’t allow them to be emotionally intimate with each other – well, at least we train them not to be -and that’s sad.
Anyway, my point is, and I’ve asked Warren this about his patients, is that people, gay or straight can be bisexual and not even know it – so that adds a whole new twist to this “fluidity” discussion and whether or not a drastic change is happening in some, or if an orientation that was already there is simply being realized
Drowssap
The gay porn star was most likely bisexual – and I think you are underestimating the potential for women to lust as well. I know a great many women who deal with lust, so you can’t simply assign it to one gender, as much as our society tries to do that.
Ann, Timothy and Drowssap
I think you’re confusing what people will admit to with reality. I know many men who have admitted to being bisexuals, and I only know a few women.
I think its part of how we are socialized – even if men are as bisexual as women, and I believe they are, they are not, in a million years, going to admit it – just look at how society treats gay men versus gay women – it is MUCH more accepting for two women to be together than it is for two men – and its much easier for women to show affection for each other than it is men.
In the end, you can’t ignore the powerful forces of socialization and the effect it has on men – I also know several men who ARE bisexual, but they would never call themselves that – So before you go talking about polls or what you guy friends SAY they are or aren’t, remember that.
Ann
defining bisexuality as having EQUAL attraction is to both genders is wrong. I have a self-professed bisexual friend who is more attracted to men, but who has married a women – to whom he remains faithful – and I’ve found that to be true of almost all bisexuals – very few are 50/50 in the attraction area, and they span the spectrum
The thread above this one mentions a gay porn star who fell in love with one woman and stayed faithful.
It didn’t say he stayed faithful… just that he married her. As for faithful porn stars… let’s just say that the people involved in porn whom I have met had an attitude about sex that did not put great emphasis on monogamy..
Lynn David
Every time I read your posts about growing up I feel bad. You had a tough time with a lot of exploitive or otherwise jerky people. I hope your adult life is awesome, you deserve a break.
Timothy Kincaid
I just googled to see who Pete LaBarbera is. I dunno if he would be the best source 😎
NickC
That has gotta be rough. I’m only hypothesizing that it does seem possible that actions could influence thought processes over time. Obviously this won’t work for everyone or maybe even most people.
The thread above this one mentions a gay porn star who fell in love with one woman and stayed faithful. It sounds crazy but this fits right into the human experience. Straight men are biologically programmed to want sex with every attractive woman they see. (women will never understand this) They’ll lust in their hearts until the day they die but most will remain faithful to their wives.
Often this issue comes up in mental health in the context of whether or not a counselor has a duty to warn the spouse of a man who has contracted HIV or fears he has.
This brochure gives a good overview of the legal and ethical issues.
This article suggests there is no professional consensus about the matter.
Given that ambiguity exists when there is a positive HIV result, there is even more ambiguity in the situation you describe. Mental health professionals come out of school knowing a few things, and one of them is the client holds the privilege to their revelations.
Now as to what the therapist should have done with you, it is even more unclear. I think the ethical rule that might apply is the duty of therapists to monitor for progress. If there is none, then the therapist might want to confront the behavior and make a referral if nothing changes. But this is more of a clinical judgment issue than ethical at this point.
I want to post a direct question to Warren, not as a challenge of anything he has said, but simply for information about the professional ethics of psychology.
As noted above, I was faithful to my “ex-gay” commitments, including my marriage, for more than 20 years. But in the last five years before I left the marriage, I began having clandestine sexual encounters with men, much like the subject of the New York article. I was traveling a great deal on business, which made it easy to sneak out to meet men and have affairs.
For over two years of this time, during the peak of my double life, I was also talking once a week by phone with an associate therapist in Joseph Nicolosi’s practice. I was completely open with this counselor about everything I was doing. Certainly, he never expressed approval of my behavior. But to my memory, he never directly challenged me to tell my wife what was going on.
Looking back today, I believe the therapy actually enabled my dishonesty. The fact that I was in therapy gave my wife a false assurance that I was dealing with my homosexual attractions, and not lying to her about my behavior. And the fact that my therapist knew everything I was doing gave me a false sense of being honest about my behavior, even though my lying was out of control.
Warren, what is the therapist’s professional duty in cases like this? In this case, my sexual activity was actually endangering another person’s life, since there was always the risk I could become infected with HIV and pass that on to her. While I understand that confidentiality would prevent him from warning my wife directly about my behavior, it seems to me that he should have told me bluntly that either I had to be honest with my wife or he could not continue to counsel me.
In posing the question, let me make clear that I do not in any way blame the therapist for my conduct. I was solely responsible for my decisions and behavior. But I do wonder what standards psychologists apply in a situation like this.
In response to Drowssap: “I believe that before birth Alan was wired up for SSA. However because he swore he’d stop acting on those feelings and followed through they probably did subside over time.”
I stopped acting on my SSA in 1972, and followed through faithfully for over 20 years. (One “slip,” as ex-gays call it, in 1984.) I can’t speak for Alan Chambers, but in my case, “those feelings” never subsided. And judging from the many ex-gays and ex-ex-gays I’ve known, my experience is not unique.
Drowsap,
Good point.
While there is bisexual porn, it pales in comparison to the amount of straight porn and gay porn produced every year. I wasn’t able to find info easily online (try googling “porn” or “adult” and see if it gives you financial reports) but that’s my impression. Maybe Pete LaBarbera has better knowledge about this than I do.
Interestingly, porn including women together with both a girl and a guy is not bisexual porn – it’s straight porn. Bi porn is two guys and a girl.
Which I guess just confirms that men are by far the consumers of porn. And that many straight guys don’t mind (ok, really like) seeing girl-on-girl.
I was young and mostly still closeted in a hyper-conservative state (mostly because of the attitudes in my workplace) when I had a brief but rather passionate affair with one of these “Williams.” He was a bit older than me and did most of the courting. It blossomed into love which I thought was reciprocated. At least ’twas love for me, but after his machinations were revealed I’m not sure.
Rather, I am sure it is not love. After I found out he had a wife and child – a familiy, I felt rotten. There followed an intense few days of one-on-one therapy in which he did most of everything. He was telling me that he needed me, desired me, that if I stayed with him I could save his marriage. In the end it boiled down to me becoming his “mistress.”
Well, I have my principles and one is that love includes trust and devotion and that means monogamy. If he wanted some man for sex he should have gone about it like the “William” of the article did (for the most part). Then he would have been flying lower than my gaydar.
I think in therapy it is those emotional values of love, such as trust and devotion, of which such men should be made aware that they are deficient. It is that which they are looking to preserve, they think they have it with their marriage, and yet they are betraying those values.
But the article’s “William” is gay. His description of his young pre-married life of hanging on with his straight friends and their activities reminds me of myself. I drew the line on going to strip clubs with the ‘guys from work.’ I don’t know if that offended my sensibilities because of my Roman Catholic upbrining or my homosexuality… maybe both.
Closetting like that pushes you away from the ‘normal’ gay gathering sites into those which would normally be in disagreement with your own principles, especially in a hyper-conservative state/area. There was an article in a local Salt Lake City newspaper about married gay men in Utah (Salt Lake City) about a year or two ago. It mentioned that such persons were seeking out others in parks and other public areas. Perhaps for some of you, oddly enough there was a gay therapy group which sought to assimilate these men once they had come to a decision to end their marriages. The gay group was there to give the men a sense of self-worth and value about their life to allow them to expess themselves as gay in a more principled way.
Ann,
I will strive to live up to your expectations about attitude and condescention. And to quote comment number 39395 above, “thank you for sharing”.
It is very hard to know what attitudes are intended in a blog comment.
But in any event, I do hope we maintain the level of dialogue and consideration for each other that makes this blog very much different than others.
Timothy,
I appreciate your apology but please lose the attitude. You are not serving yourself well by being so condesending and assuming in your communication. It reveals a side of you that is unbecoming and very ineffective. You make some very good points, as all of us do, but many of your points are missed or diminished by the immature and sarcastic attitude. You have too many good things to say to have it lost because you let your emotions overwhelm you. Take note of some of the other articulate people on this blog and the method in which they communicate and if you think it would help, try to aspire to it.
Gosh, Ann, I guess I misunderstood you.
I though you were not understanding the discussion, because you seemed to be unclear on the concepts and kept asking what people meant.
You seemed to be conflating fluidity with bisexuality and were suffering under the rather bizarre assumption that a “man who is capable of having sex with both genders” was some argument for the validity of sexual fluidity. I thought it obvious that anyone making that argument was not working with a very good understanding of the terms.
So I clarified.
But as it turns out, you weren’t looking for explanation at all. You weren’t misunderstanding terms. Instead you actually think sexual functioning with both men and women proves sexual fluidity.
My error. It wasn’t an issue of vocabulary at all, but an issue of logic. Or lack thereof.
I apologize for my assumption. If you were offended by my clarification about the terms, I am ever so sorry.
If most men were secretly bisexual porn would cater to this reality.
Let me fix that…
If most men were even A LITTLE bisexual porn would cater to this reality. There would be too much money involved not to.
Timothy Kincaid
Let me agree with you 100%. Everything I’ve ever read or experienced indicates that men are gay or straight with very little inbetween. Women are much more likely to be bi or fluid.
A good place to learn about male fantasy might be the porn industry. Porn doesn’t cater to the Christian right and yet in straight porn, men do not under any circumstances penetrate each other. If most men were secretly bisexual porn would cater to this reality.
Timothy,
Thank you for the “explanation” – I can assure you I didn’t need it but thanks for sharing your perspective on it anyway. Regarding “for purposes of discussion” -I think we are all capable here of discerning what is being discussed but, again, thank you for sharing.
Ann,
For purposes of discussion:
Bisexuality – attraction to persons of both sexes.
Generally, this means equal attration – ie one finds men as attractive as women and has the ability to fall in love when the right person (of either sex) comes into their life.
But sometimes this term includes those who are attracted to one sex generally but only to some smaller segment of the other sex.
Fluidity – a shifting of attractions along the spectrum. Fluidity is not when one finds different persons attractive (e.g. one was dating to a tall redhead, but now one is attracted to a short dark-haired person) but rather when one finds one’s overall attractions to change (e.g. from one sex to the other).
The fact that a person functions sexually with both sexes does not suggest fluidity (ie. change of attractions from one sex to another) but simply that they are to some extent sexually attracted to both.
Ann,
I’m not sure which statement you are referencing:
Jayhuck,
the reality is there are probably more bisexual people in this country then there are either gay or straight people.
I think you are mistaken.
Using the 2005 CDC report and their questions about identity and about attraction, men were more likely to identify as gay or to state their attraction to males than to identify as bi or state attraction to both.
Women, on the other hand, were more likely to identify as bi and attracted to both.
I’ve read (some years back and don’t have the reference at hand) that male sexuality can be graphed as a “J” in which there is a pretty clear separation between orientations with few truly bisexual persons while women are more like a “W” with pretty strong bisexual presence.
The same source said that women had both a broader range of attraction as well as more fluidity in their orientation and that men are pretty much fixed.
I don’t claim that the above is correct (I don’t recall the source) but it does seem to mirror what I’ve seen.
One of the problems of discussing orientation and changes therein is that we tend to talk as though male and female sexuality were similar. I don’t think that is the case.
I just wanted to comment on an Alan Chambers comment that got smushed a couple of threads ago. His comment that over time homosexual attractions will subside seems reasonable. (ducking all the rotten tomatoes)
I believe that before birth Alan was wired up for SSA. However because he swore he’d stop acting on those feelings and followed through they probably did subside over time. I’ve never acted on my inborn “road rage” and after two decades of driving my blood pressure rarely goes up in traffic. Most of the stress related to driving rolls off my shoulders and in any case my mind has learned how to focus elsewhere.
I think this is the kind of effect that Spitzer found in his research. Maybe a full change isn’t possible because of physical structures in the brain. However a lot of change might be possible with a LOT of work and perseverance.
Maybe Alan finds his wife a very attractive person and this in turn creates some sexual attraction. It might not be the inborn animal instinct that straight men have for women but… it is something and it could be real for him.
Jayhuck,
Can you go into a little more detail about your comments on fluidity and bi-sexuals? I thnk they are two very important terms that contradict so much of the limitations being put on sexuality today.
Jayhuck,
That it did not work for you or for the people you choose to look at – does not mean reparative therapy does not work for some.
Call it your gut or whatever – God given feelings – sometimes they are right. Just a different perspective than yours.
It seems that no matter how far we roam… any of us with any interest in this issue — we end back up at reparative therapy’s door.
I’m picturing an HA (Homosexuals Anonymous) meeting room in the late 80’s with a group sitting in a circle in a church’s meeting room, and Elizabeth Moberley’s book being passed around. For me, it was the first time to see the ‘ground breaking’,” here is *why* we are the way we are” work.
Fast forward to today, and the only thing that has changed are my grey hairs and some extra pounds. And sadly, as far as I can tell, that is about all that little book has witnessed.
This topic was/is on married men who stray. We had some of them in that meeting room — week after week coming in — not wanting to cheat and yet. Again, fast forward, and in the words of the old sage, “nothing new under the sun.” Perhaps that book does have its place in the Bible — Ecclesiastes, that is.
If I’m waxing philosophical, please forgive me. But I’m on a very interesting and very civil blog here with others who have had the same road to travel, and I wonder, what do we really know today that, I, as a young ‘un didn’t see or know back then?
Surely by this time there should be *some* kind of studies that someone has kept of change rates, and more to the point, the efficacy of reparative therapy. And to anyone involved or who was involved with Exodus — why, do they, in this group so adamantly hold on to this theory when it has fostered little lasting, staying success in the lives of its adherents? That is what I would like to know.
Maybe the answer to that will shed some light on *why* Richard Cohen and others like him have any audience at all.
Drowssap –
You didn’t answer my statement that gay marriage would not only be good for gay people but also for society – if gay couples can be more “married” than many straight couples – if for no other reason than this – they deserve the rights of marriage bestowed by the secular state. And there are many benefits that it could and would have on society as a whole
Many committed gay couples cannot afford the time or money it takes, and that people like George Takei and his partner have, to draw up legal documents that grant them a fraction of the benefits that a $21 marriage license ensures.
All I’m saying is treat all consenting adult couples equally.
ANON2 –
It is not a matter of believing Reparative Therapy works – First, there is no proof it does, and no matter how many people SAY it does does not make it so. I’m not sure about your gut, but my gut, heart, whatever you want to call it often tells me what I want to hear, or what I feel I want to hear – often it is not a reliable source of what is really going on in my life, or in reality.
It is about the fact that many people have been hurt by reparative therapy. This “fluidity” thing that people keep mentioning really has its roots in bisexuality – for some odd reason, none of us on here use that word – bisexuals are always made to feel outcasts – gay and straight people want to act like they don’t exist, but the reality is there are probably more bisexual people in this country then there are either gay or straight people. The problem is that we have to hide bisexuality under terms like “fluidity” or “change”.
There are two facts that cannot be disputed and that should be important to therapists
1) There is absolutely NO scientific proof that Reparative therapy works and that people aren’t simply repressing their feelings – in fact there is evidence from many Ex-Ex gays that people DID repress feelings and suffered many negative consequences because of Reparative Therapy
2) People have been harmed by Reparative Therapy – I agree and support Warren’s work, but again , he’s not a Reparative Therapist. The APA should never have to support methods just because a small group of people, with a vested interest in believing it works because of their religion, say it works. No scientific group of people should have to support methods that have no science to back them up
NOW, talking about people living within their values is something different entirely, and something apart from the APA. People absolutely have the righ to live in whatever way they feel they must, but they don’t have a right to say an organization must support them without science – does that clear anything up?
Part of the Task Force opposition to reparative therapy is philosophical to be sure. However, in part, it is due to antics like Richard Cohen, NARTH support for advisors who should not be advising, and Love In Action’s teen program. You do not have to be against ex-gays, however defined, to question these things. From my vantage point, they are questionable actions and activities.
I agree they need to be fair and focus on the existing research and its limitations. However, bad actors and actions cannot be ignored. I continue to hope for an outcome that respects religious differences and discourages clear harm at the same time.
Jayhuck,
I would agree the science has not yet supported my idea, but my gut tells me it is true for me and that is all I need for now. I suspect the support from science will come once that side of this issue is allowed to be looked at, in fact a great deal of what I have been reading of late supports the fluidity view of the mind. We become what we believe in and reinforce those believes by subsequent actions. To say that no further learning is possible is to say that education of adults in general is a waste of time and I would contend of their money.
This is one of the main reasons why I am so against the APA Task Force that is made up sole of people who do not believe reparative therapy works. That to me sound of an attempt to shut down the opposing side and that is not science.
jayhuck
I do believe that men and women are biologically designed for each other. HOWEVER, if a man finds another man and it works for them I’m not going to criticize. George Takei has been with his partner for 20 years and they’ve been absolutely monogomous. Good for both of them!
I am not a fan of promiscuity on any level.
Bad for society
Bad for individuals
Bad for health
it would be interesting to see how this man would feel if his wife were living a double life as he is – would he consider her infidelity a character flaw or accept it as part of what she chose to do and desire to stay married to her? The part that his wife not knowing indicates to me that he knows his marriage would be in jeopardy if she were to find out. Perhaps this is what he is really seeking – for her to find out and that would alleviate him from making a decision – it would be made for him.
I wonder about the health risks to which this man is exposing his wife. I wonder about her emotional health should she become aware of the entire situation. I wonder about his emotional health as he tries to balance two separate life ideals. My belief is that the status quo cannot be maintained, but I think there’s a lot more at stake than simply encouraging or discouraging the maintenance of the marriage. And I don’t believe the man can be emotionally healthy while deceiving a woman he supposedly loves.
Timothy,
Are you sure? Is that an axiomatic statement or would you leave a little room for discussion about it?
Drowssap –
There is a strong social value to Same Sex Marriage and to Opposite Sex Marriage – Many men have found their soulmates in other men, and some men have found their soulmates in other women. This, of course, works the same for women.
If Freddy had found a man and stuck to him only, he most likely wouldn’t be death today.
Regarding Freddy Mercury (funny was just thinking about him and his beautiful voice — irreplaceable as far as I am concerned)–
Maybe…Mary was his only friend because women in general (please no egg throwing) have a greater capacity than men to *be* a friend.
IOW I don’t interpret that to be a “sexual” statement at all. I believe Dr. T cross linked a lengthy study by Lisa Diamond on falling in love versus sexual desire — that they *can* exist mutually independent of one another, and in fact, do.
Also, what does this say about a man who is capable of having sex with both genders – that sexual fluidity is valid, regardless of what ethics or morals are attached to it?
No, Ann, of course it doesn’t say that. Sexual functioning, or even sexual pleasure, says nothing about fluidity.
It seems to me – based solely on the article – that William values the idea of his marriage more than he values his marriage.
Ann,
This merely says that this guy is bisexual. There are many bisexual married men and the way married bisexuals deal with their attractions is varied – many married couples simply have open relationships – some remain monogamous – it depends on the couple and what each person in the relationship wants.
I definitely think the man needs to understand that coming out as gay doesn’t mean he has to give up his family – there are many good and gay fathers who are very close to their former wives and to their children.
I know many gay men who did not feel they could be a good husband and father and divorced their wives – good in the sense that they new they would be lying to themselves and preventing their wives from having a truly satisfying marriage – NOT that that is what is going on with you ANON2. This didn’t distance them from their family though – it in fact made them much stronger. So staying in a marriage just for staying-in’s sake, or because religion tells you you should, is definitely not a always a good answer.
I’m still not sure how best to deal with the guy from this article though – that’s a tough one
Well, there are many marriages that are simply open – where the wife allows the man to sleep ONLY with other men, and vice versa, providing certain rules are followed – I think these people are called Swingers – I believe the term is still in use – and there are more of these people than you might think.
This guy sounds different – I think – not sure how I would handle that.
ANON2 – your claim that “My attraction was really an attempt to form a closer bond with men that I had never learned how to do in growing up.” has never been proven scientifically – if telling yourself that worked for you, that’s great, but there is no proof that that is what is going on with any or most gay men. That is rhetoric you hear from NARTH and other Reparative Therapists. I mean no disrespect, but that needs to be said.
The part that disturbs me most is the defrauding of the wife. He can’t pretend to be committed to her if he’s willing to go on deceiving her–and with a behavior that could impact her health. (LOL. I guess I’d start with having him define his commitment to his wife and marriage and would likely inquire whether his wife’s definition would be the same.)
The real kicker, though, is that he has rationalized having sex outside of marriage. He’d clearly see sex and flirtation with another woman as a violation of his marriage commitment. What odd trick of the human mind justifies his cheating simply because the partner is another man? LOL! This one pops a lot of my buttons and they aren’t even my ‘church buttons’. This is a question I tried to ask of bi-sexuals back when I was actively gay. “But, if you’re in a relationship, isn’t it cheating?” Followed by: “What are your thoughts on cheating?”
I’m not a religious guy but I still see a strong social value to marriage between men and women. 250,000 years of natural selection virtually ensures that although men and women may have their differences they are built to complement each other. It isn’t just curvy bodies that attract men to women.
Here is a Freddy Mercury quote about his longtime girlfriend/partner Mary Austin. To those who don’t know Freddy Mercury was the lead singer of the rock band Queen and very much gay.
In a 1985 interview, Mercury said of Austin, “All my lovers asked me why they couldn’t replace Mary (Austin), but it’s simply impossible. The only friend I’ve got is Mary, and I don’t want anybody else. To me, she was my common-law wife. To me, it was a marriage. We believe in each other, that’s enough for me. I couldn’t fall in love with a man the same way as I have with Mary.”
When Freddy died I read he gave the bulk of his estate to Mary. She was his soulmate and if he could have found a way to stay with her and not stray he would be alive today.
Warren,
You are familiar with my own situation and I would say that I can relate totally with this man. I know for me that I do value my marriage and my family and that religion played a part in this. The part that seems to have kept me looking for relationships with other men was largely that I gave into the mentality that there was nothing I could do to alleviate the attaction I had towards men and that I could not be happy unless I accepted that I was gay. I now realize that to absolutely false. What I had to do was come to some level of acceptance of why I was attracted to men and then struggle through this to the realization that this did not make me different that many other men. My attraction was really an attempt to form a closer bond with men that I had never learned how to do in growing up. Now that I am beginning to feel more comfortable with myself and around men in general and have begun to see these attraction quite differently I no longer have to rely on annonymous sexual partners to fullfill my need. This has given me a new freedom that I honestly did not feel was possible for many years of my marriage. By the way I am still married and intend on staying that way.
Hi Nick,
I have the same question as you do about this. Seems this a form of adultry and is that ethical for a therapist to facilitate? Just because he says he wants both now doesn’t mean that will be how he feels after theraputic treatment. It would be interesting to see how therapy would unfold with this kind of person. I am guessing that through a series of questions and answers the reasons for his double life would come to surface and then he could see the situation for what it is, then be able to make a decision on what he values more and have this treatment centered from that decision. Also, what does this say about a man who is capable of having sex with both genders – that sexual fluidity is valid, regardless of what ethics or morals are attached to it?
Nick – Fixed, thanks!
Not the New York Times magazine, but New York magazine.
http://nymag.com/news/features/34985/
And much like the subject of the article, who spends too much time on Craig’s List when he should be working, I’m spending way too much time posting on this topic today!
One serious comment, however, in response to Warren’s question about counseling to help someone stay in a marriage, if that is his goal. The guy in this article seems to be committed to staying in the marriage AND pursuing sex with men, without his wife’s knowledge. Would it be ethical for a therapist to support him in continuing to deceive his wife?