[To the left is a protestor, the police (they were everywhere, and a portajohn supplied by (as I understand it) the church.]
I went to the Love Won Out in St. Louis this weekend as an observer. I will post more about the inside view later, but not tonight as I am nearing sleep. Instead I’ll post more pics than comments. I will say that I would guess the estimates of 400 at the protest are pretty accurate, maybe more. It was indeed peaceful when I saw it. It was a pleasure to run into Colleen (CK) who posts here now and then. I was very glad she ran over to my car where I was taking pics of the crowd. I will have more to say about the conference itself in due time.
[To the right: Colleen is asking herself: “who is that weirdo with the camera?”]
Warning: Understatement alert! Reparative therapy was not popular among the crowd.
There’s more to know, but how to ascertain it is the problem. I’m just not going to sweat it. I am going to work with the people who come to me for help. That will keep me plenty occupied.
Debbie Thurman ~ May 22, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Debbie, thank you for responding. I wish you had more you could share but I appreciate that which you did.
Jayhuck-
Just how do you describe Exodus to these folks who don’t know who they are?
My apologies Warren- that quote above that I thanked Timothy for was actually yours. I appreciated that.
Thanks for clarifying Debbie!
Forgive me. I am not trying to be offensive, but merely stating that in the context of the Church, people tend to obsess over homosexuality and change far more than they do over many other very real and more common problems in their midst. Evangelicals see all the above as forms of brokenness leading to sin. I can’t change that perception. I can hope to maybe focus them on a broader perspective. We don’t need to be devaluing gay people or anyone.
What are you trying to say Warren – that bigotry or prejudice cannot be believed? The fact that she believes that or that it fits her experience doesn’t mean its not bigotry and/or prejudice.
Warren,
I agree Warren – anymore than its true to say that all conservative Christians are inherently bigoted or hypocrites because that has been MY experience.
The much bigger problem though Warren is that these people are trying to devalue other gay people – and not just devalue but they work to prevent gay people from having families and equal rights. THAT is why co-existence is a problem – the fact that each side may or may not make sweeping generalizations about the other is not nearly as big a factor.
Debbie,
I am so incredibly tired of some conservatives comparing gay people to drug addicts or adulterers. Its offensive.
Duh! I think we all know that. You can choose to deal with it before or after marriage. And “deal with it” cuts both ways. I didn’t mention above that a couple of us were married to suggest it had given us immunity. Obviously, it didn’t. We are happily, heterosexually married today, however.
You know, I am not one of those who has an obsession with needing to have lots of “changed” people around me that I can point to. I know they are there. A few are my friends. I don’t need to know how many are there. Why don’t we obsess over how many alcoholics or drug addicts or adulterers have changed? We all know in our hearts that change is not easy for any of these. But it is possible.
When I talked about hope earlier, it was in the Romans 5:1-5 context. There is a quiet confidence in that kind of hope. It can lead us then to Romans 12:2 — renewal and transformation. It transcends science and statistics. We don’t need that stuff to do ministry. We ought to be leaving it to the therapists.
Debbie,
Being married doesn’t mean you aren’t homosexual. How many married homosexual men and women have come out in the last several years??? Enough to make people realize that marriage is probably nothing more than a shield for people who are unhappy with their SSA
I am not trying to be glib here, but after the terrible things that Exodus did in Africa, after their long history of distorting science, does anyone REALLY take them seriously. No one I know even knows who they are. I have to describe the organization to them.
While we’re on the topic, I think we should talk about all the Ex-Ex Gay folk out there – people who were sure they had been “cured” of their SSA
THANK YOU Tim 🙂 How many times has James Dobson been criticized by the people who actually DID the research for taking their information out of context. LOL
Eddy,
Anti-gay has a very specific definition – From Dictionary.com:
“opposed or hostile to homosexuals or to homosexual social reforms and institutions, etc.”
What’s even funnier Eddy, is that I wasn’t all that supportive of gay marriage until I started talking to people like you 🙂 Funny how things work out
Timothy, my ministry with SSA folks has only been active since last year. I worked with several women who were also dealing with depression along with their SSA in the years before that. Most of my recovery work has been with people suffering from anxiety and depression. So, I have scant personal experience with “changed” women or men.
I see the ones I work with now in a process. They are not in the same place they were last year. So, that is hopeful, but far from conclusive. I don’t associate with the SSA men at church except for the leaders, so I know of those three success stories personally. One, like me, was already married and still is. The other two are single, but doing very well. That’s about all I can tell you. The others I know are those I mentioned in my post above.
Debbie,
I share your frustration. But I also think that perhaps it can add a bit to the confusion to say “There is always hope.”
I agree that we can hope for just about anything. And, indeed, when one can’t hold onto faith, sometimes hope gets you through. There are days when I dream of winning the lottery and the hope this dream provides is well worth the cost of a ticket.
But there’s a difference between hope and realistic expectation.
I know you have been in ministry for a while. So perhaps you would be willing to share your experience with change numbers – and I do, of course, understand that you aren’t speaking for all ministries.
Can you tell us roughly how many participants are in your group and how many from your group you have seen achieve a fulfilling heterosexual marriage (without slip ups and cheating).
I agree that women and men can’t be put into the same basket. So I would love to know from you, do you know many (any?) happily married ex-gay men that are not in ministry themselves?
Sometimes from the outside it can be easy to make assumptions. But I’d rather know than assume.
If Exodus stuck to Christian encouragement and support for living in accord with Christian teaching, it would be super. When they venture into research and science, the mischief begins.
I tend to agree. However, I would also add that mischief is in their political activism, advertising, and injudicious exporting of their theories into parts of the world where that can result in oppression or death. But if they stuck to ministry, I’d have little complaint about them.
Well, I definitely do not agree with what AM is saying.
You don’t like the idea that there is hope for change. Why? There is always hope.There is no guarantee, and that is a different matter. You paint SSA ministries with one broad brush. Wrong.
SSA per se is not sin. It is temptation, with its roots in the fallen nature we all have. Unravelling all its mysteries, as if we even could, will not impact the process.
It is imperative to keep it real inside those recovery groups (I facilitate one myself) and make sure everyone knows why they are there and what you can and cannot do for them. You paint a very bleak picture which is advantageous to the pro-gay cause:
That ain’t my story, and I don’t think I am that magnificent. I find that those dealing with SSA are at all places along the continuum, if you will. But hope? That’s something you can never deny a person, no matter what their path. Once they own it, they can do something about it.
I also see that women and men can’t be put into the same basket. You are mostly talking about men, I’ll bet.
In no wise, shape, or form am I in accord with Exodus venturing into research and science, but to put aside the idea that the orientation in and of itself is a sin (or brokenness or whatever you want to call it) —
Consider *why* they are offering research “answers”:
Bring in youngish adults and tell them that they will in all liklihood never change their sexual orientations in order to have a fullfilling heterosexual marriage (including *not* living a double life with gay relations on the side as so many “ex-gays” find themselves in), and the attractiveness of the ministry starts to decline. Considerably.
And could you really blame them? To spend the rest of your adult life in a group to talk about your “falls” when you are genuninely in love with someone, how wearying can that get?! (Raises hand from having been in said groups.)
Pragmatically, I do understand why Exodus holds out this “hope for change is possible” mantra which I first heard about a decade ago. Is this oftentimes realized? That is another matter.
“We have nothing to offer you (except a confessional room); go and live the rest of your life in celibacy.” Not. For most.
Well, of course you are!
Actually, I really appreciate what you have to say here.
Yes, this gets a bit sticky for them at times. And the change numbers are just impossible to know, to say nothing of arriving at a consensus of what “change” is. I can never get anyone to tell me just how they derive their estimates. They have been trying to move away a bit from the “change” mantra, I think.
But Exodus is doing some good things, and I hope they will continue to evolve into a more discipling organization. Same for Love Won Out. Melissa’s story is a great one because an older couple took her under their wing and discipled her. That’s what the church is supposed to be doing with all strugglers. And I also love the way Joe sometimes uses the bar analogy to point out the weaknesses of the church.
Debbie – I am always fair and balanced 🙂
Melissa’s presentation was (not sure about now) presented more qualifications than Nicolosi’s presentation. She did say some things that were misleading, especially relating to sexual abuse. She was presenting her experience (everyone she knew had been abused) although it is hard to imagine that is accurate.
Joe Dallas is giving Nicolosi’s talk now and it is more reasonable. It still however, focuses on reparative developmental theory as if there is strong empirical support for it. He does a good job of sounding tentative but those in attendance would have no real idea of how someone could be gay and not have a detached relationship with the same-sex parent. Joe D says the reparative way isn’t the only way but he doesn’t flesh that out at all.
All in all, I do not refer parents to LWO anymore. If someone asks my view, I tell them what I heard and know from knowing some of the presenters now, give pros and cons and let it go at that.
Exodus is similar. Although on balance for many people who want social support, it can be pretty encouraging. For the most part, there is very little of value when it comes to information regarding causes. I find the change information to be quite inflated and often confusing. For evangelicals however, the church services and music are really uplifting. If Exodus stuck to Christian encouragement and support for living in accord with Christian teaching, it would be super. When they venture into research and science, the mischief begins.
This is reviving a bit of old history (winter of ’06), but I was curious so I read the comments. Warren, you had some very fair and balanced things to say, especially about Melissa Fryrear. Would you say those things again, if given the opportunity?
BTW, I have not attended a Love Won Out conference, but have attended some training sessions with Melissa, Mike Haley and Joe Dallas at various times. I have been to one Exodus conference, way back in ’91 or ’92, and went to another church conference. I found my one-on-one counseling and reading to be very beneficial for me and didn’t feel drawn to the conference experience much.
I didn’t know you were there. I was there too with a couple gay friends (I’m transgender) inside the conference. One had gone thru reparative therapy and eventually got frustrated and went to join the protesters to blow off steam. The estimates of 400 are an under-estimate as many protesters like myself bought tickets and went inside instead, praying and careful talking instead of holding up signs.
From a google search for “athiest ex gay” I found a whole lot of religious links and one anonymous amazon.com review of a religious ex-gay book from Feb 2003 by someone claiming to be an athiest ex-gay. This person also claimed the APA was “about to get a huge law suit by former gays.”
If anyone out there has any, could they please post some links to agnostic and athiest ex-gay organizations? I’d like to see a bit of balance.
Mike
Anonymous,
“”I’m of Europrean descent, my skin color if matched with a color palette is close to white, and I have blond hair. I could choose to identify as a black man. I would be stupid to do so. Its also stupid for a man with exclusively same-sex attraction to identify as a heterosexual. This is what Exodus attempts to convince its members to do.”
Indeed, and there’s a lot of closeted black people out there, aren’t there?
These are two entirely different situations.”
These two situations are very similar. Nothing prevents a white man from identify as a black man. Others may think he’s crazy. Being a black man is something we can see on the outside. Having SSA is something on the inside. So its easy to hide and easier to identify as something you are not.
Thanks for putting these pictures up on your blog. What I am going to say may be a bit of a rant. I Just feel the need to get off my chest that the more I think about this conference the more asinine it seems. I just fail to see the logic in why people would change something that isn’t wrong in the name of religion. I mean change it for any other reason, because your bored with it or whatever, but not because of religion. And people who coerce their family members, their sons, their daughters etc to seek “treatment” are beyond low. The ones that force them to go, well I’ll refrain from commenting on them because I want to keep this clean. 😉
Also I fail to see why psychology is being mixed with a specific religion. I think rather than doing studies on why people are gay and if they can change, we need to do more studies on why some religious people are so nuts that they can’t get past someone’s sexual orientation. Maybe some studies on if religious brainwashing causes physical changes in the brain, and if some people are genetically predisposed to being susceptible to religious brainwashing.
If someone who is gay is miserable being that way, why not work to fix the cause of their misery rather than change who they are? That’s much more of a patch than a fix to the overall situation. What needs to be fixed is the reason that they are miserable. They are miserable because the world around them is filled with bigots and fundamentalists that refuse to just let them be who they are. That type of treatment is bound to wear anyone down. Then when they wear down, they are told “look you are broken because you are homosexual.
The more we can work on limiting the power of the fundamentalists and the bigots, the better off we will be. It is religion that needs to be tested with science, not the other way around. It is a tough battle we are in, but the fair minded people will win. We have to take care of each other. When we reach than point, then we can truly say ‘Love Won Out’.
Mike
Actually Anon — until the 60’s/70’s that was quite common.
Many did indeed pass themself off as white (or more specifally, hispanic). They needed to be lighter skinned, obviously, and didn’t try to pass themself off as some nordic blonde.
Google “passing” and “Africam American” for a fascinating part of history.
As for being celibate — what’s stopping them if that’s what they want? Is this a self-control issue, or are they fooling themself about what they really want.
As for removing all same-sex attractions — go find an unethical therapist and they’ll be happy to. With the help of electricty, a lobotamy, drugs, or even just sheer induced fear it is possible to remove all (apparent) sexual response. That’s what they did for decades with gay men and women — removed all sexual response and declared the patient “no longer a homosexual”. Of course, what they never did was replace it with heterosexual responses.
Whether anyone who undergoes such treatment will be happy with the other aspects of their life following, well that’s another matter.
“I’m of Europrean descent, my skin color if matched with a color palette is close to white, and I have blond hair. I could choose to identify as a black man. I would be stupid to do so. Its also stupid for a man with exclusively same-sex attraction to identify as a heterosexual. This is what Exodus attempts to convince its members to do.”
Indeed, and there’s a lot of closeted black people out there, aren’t there?
These are two entirely different situations.
There are many in Exodus who may not want a heterosexual relationship…they want merely to be celibate. They just don’t want to be gay, and do not want same-sex attractions.
PT Cruiser????
Warren, if you drive one of those here in Oz…. GAY!!!! As in, COMPLETELY GAY.
Anywhoo, each to their own. (Sorry, forgot where I was for a moment).
CK. Do Not. I repeat DO NOT use duct tape. The last thing we need is you swellagantly dressed, suitably matching the lack of mannish stride, but hobbling. Trust me, even that may be noticed under a “Scott of the Antarctic” outfit.
Boo: I’ll admit to two. One of which not often, the other due to three freaks of eyebrow hairs that grow vertically. I doubt I’d bleaauuh-ch my hair (even if I had some.) Other one has lots of lovely black hair (with weird white ones starting to pop out), and no no no will never be permitted to colour it. ‘cept over dead body.
Warren: Quiz. Is that for us to guess about you, or answer about self? Or someone else?
If second, we’d need — “h) have worked with people in care because parent did exactly that.” (No, not funny. At all.)
And — f) could not be bothered.
And I’m sure anyone from FO(your)F is welcome to post here — they pay for it afterall, don’t they???
(that, BTW, Anon, was meant to be funny)
Quiz:
1. I do not get the cracked skull joke because:
a)I am humor challenged;
b)I do not have the humor gene;
c)I am defensively detached from my father who was a comedian;
d)Humor is against my religion
e)I never learned that danger can be fun
f)My mom used rear-end boosters
g)Construct any one of the above
2. A lengthy, serious write up may not be forthcoming because:
a) There is too much to write about
b) I am working on a more comprehensive analysis to be offered in due time
c) Dang students won’t let me get anything done
d) I am way too hateful to be serious
e) Too many right wing doughnuts
Rob – Alert the SPLC, someone from Focus posted on my blog!
Anonymous said…
You right wing gay hates and so called “ex gays” have lost the battle to destroy gay American’s with your hateful drivel. Everyday gay people are coming out and telling their stories and are changing society. Every few months researchers continue to find more evidence that homosexuality is biological and not some random choice. Movies like “Brokeback Mountain” are getting people to talk about homosexuality, which is good!
Being a former member of Exodus, I am annoyed beyond words how they and Throckmorton mislead people. From Throckmorton’s own words, he’s not that much interested in how much people’s sexual attractions change.
You apparently weren’t annoyed far enough.
Well, I guess Melissa has had enough immunizations; I don’t recall that reference, although the other accoutrements of femininity were mentioned. Those comments were a big hit with the crowd I might add.
CK – You made pretty good time getting from crowd to the PT Cruiser. You didn’t look especially mannish however. You did however look well prepared for the cool weather. I think duct tape must be working for you.
I wonder if you can get those rear end boosters from Ebay?
“…this thing called womanhood. Goodness! Who knew there was so much to learn: plucking eyebrows, hair bleaches, hair waxings, facial mud masks, eye lash curlers, manicures, pedicures, push-up bras, tummy tuckers, rear-end boosters…”
Um… don’t they criticize gay men for supposedly doing at least some of that? I think the last is a reference to the fact that only straight women need immunizations.
You right wing gay hates and so called “ex gays” have lost the battle to destroy gay American’s with your hateful drivel. Everyday gay people are coming out and telling their stories and are changing society. Every few months researchers continue to find more evidence that homosexuality is biological and not some random choice. Movies like “Brokeback Mountain” are getting people to talk about homosexuality, which is good!
Boo: You have any idea how much work is involved in giving off “vulnerability”?
Actually we do — Melissa has already told us…
…this thing called womanhood. Goodness! Who knew there was so much to learn: plucking eyebrows, hair bleaches, hair waxings, facial mud masks, eye lash curlers, manicures, pedicures, push-up bras, tummy tuckers, rear-end boosters…
That those comments may have been equally attributed to a drag queen, oh never mind…
(Rear-end boosters??? Every woman I asked has looked askance — including all those mannish lesbians. Oh sorry, but that would all lesbians right?)
As for the Nicolsi joke: Warren, looks like an earlier conversation here (and I think I remember you saying you’d question Nicolosi?) has come to naught.
Guess none of us understand good humour when we see it. Come on, apart from a burning Lassie there’s nothing funnier than a brain damaged (and straight) baby.
Warren. You poor, humourless guy. Must be a mannish lesbian trapped in a man’s body… /snort.
(More seriously, if I could be, I do hope you are going to do a write-up about this particular event.)
I really believe that people who make repeated bigoted pronoucements are bigoted.
I don’t think I can improve on that.
“I don’t think it is bigotry. I think she really believes that; it fits her experience”
Those are not mutually exclusive sentiments.
Ever wonder why some black people commit crimes? It’s their animalistic jungle nature. Of course I’m not saying this is true of all black people, that would be overgeneralizing, but I don’t think it’s proper to say it is never true.
“I really believe a big problem in coming to any ability to co-exist is the tendency to see others through personal experience and assume personal experience should be true or is true of all others who share some characteristic. (e.g., all gays are promiscuous or all conservatives are bigoted).”
I really believe that people who make repeated bigoted pronoucements are bigoted.
CK – I had one of the doughnuts inside the building. You didn’t miss much.
Boo – I don’t think it is bigotry. I think she really believes that; it fits her experience. It is the way she is making sense of her life. Moreover, she knows other women who that description would also fit. I do not think it is proper to generalize it to all lesbians or bisexuals, nor do I think it is proper to say that is it never true.
I really believe a big problem in coming to any ability to co-exist is the tendency to see others through personal experience and assume personal experience should be true or is true of all others who share some characteristic. (e.g., all gays are promiscuous or all conservatives are bigoted).
I think that overgeneralization was occuring inside and outside the church building on Saturday.
If those are direct quotes, then whatever “qualifications” she may have made, her bigotry still shone through:
“Ever wonder why some lesbians look mannish?” she asked. “It’s a vulnerability to be a woman. That suit of armor to keep you from being hurt.”
Um… maybe some lesbians don’t care as much about portraying a stereotypically feminine appearance (which is not the same thing as “looking mannish”) because we’re not trying to attract men? You have any idea how much work is involved in giving off “vulnerability”?
People, please don’t eat their donuts or use their potty. Lets not forget that the Southern Poverty Law Center has classified Focus on the Family as a hate group. I’m looking forward to the day that Atlanta will host the “Love Won Out” conference. I hope our protest will be the biggest and loudest. Being a former member of Exodus, I am annoyed beyond words how they and Throckmorton mislead people. From Throckmorton’s own words, he’s not that much interested in how much people’s sexual attractions change. I’m of Europrean descent, my skin color if matched with a color palette is close to white, and I have blond hair. I could choose to identify as a black man. I would be stupid to do so. Its also stupid for a man with exclusively same-sex attraction to identify as a heterosexual. This is what Exodus attempts to convince its members to do.
From the inside I would say that the presentation from Melissa had more qualifications than the reporter portrayed. She repeatedly said, her theories are not universal and that the reasons for lesbianism were varied and more complex than for men. She went out of her way to make these qualifications. Dr. Nicolosi’s talk would have been the one to focus on if you were looking for more blatant blame being cast. He did not say, “you parents are at fault” directly but I cannot see how that conclusion could be avoided. He did make the “danger can be fun” joke about the infant cracking his head because the father dropped him. And amazing to me, there were lots of laughs. Teaching social psychology this semester makes me think that it must have something to do with the situation. No one I have told that “joke” to in isolation laughs; they think it is incredibly insensitive and just not funny.
I wonder if the reporter got there late and left early.
Interesting article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/AB09483033E3209A862571210001B3F3?OpenDocument
“She [Melissa Fryrear] told parents in the crowd not to blame themselves for their children’s struggles with same-sex relationships. Sometimes, she claimed, lesbianism can be traced to “an inner sense of emptiness and longing,” a fractured mother-daughter relationship” and some type of sexual abuse.”
Remember parents: don’t blame yourselves, but it’s your fault.
“Fryrear’s presentation was typical for the day: Bathed in overhead lights, she paced the stage in her cream-colored skirt and business jacket. She chronicled how she went from a 13-year-old questioning her sexuality to a college student whose whole life revolved around being gay. She said she left that lifestyle after immersing herself in church activities in Kentucky and now works for Focus on the Family as a genders issue analyst.”
News flash Melissa: your whole life still revolves around being gay.