I have been watching the Institute on the Constitution course on the National Religious Broadcasters network on Thursday nights. Last night was session 10 and covered amendments 11 through 27. I have raised numerous issues with the course over the first nine sessions, and session 10 only added to my negative reaction.
At this point, I am just going to supply some observations about the course from memory. I may do a more detailed follow up next week.
Discussing the 13th Amendment, Peroutka disparaged the Emancipation Proclamation as a political ploy on Lincoln’s part. In his discussion of the 13th Amendment, Peroutka correctly said that the amendment freed the slaves but then added that subsequent actions made us all slaves. He compared the military draft and income tax to the enslavement of blacks. To me, this comparison crudely minimizes the awfulness of slavery.
He had little good to say about the 14th Amendment. Consistent with his status of board member of the League of the South, he make the Confederate case that the amendment was never legally ratified.
Throughout his discussion of the Reconstruction amendments (13-15), Peroutka referred to the Civil War as “The War Between the States.” When David Whitney came forward to discuss his view that the 16th Amendment did not actually authorize a federal income tax, he called the Civil War, “The War for Southern Independence.” These designations are consistent with Peroutka’s view that the wrong side won the Civil War.
Probably the oddest position taken was opposition to the 19th Amendment. Peroutka complained that a woman’s right to vote “dilutes the franchise.” He said he often gets strong reaction to his position (I wonder why) but he explained that a married female voting may cancel out the vote of her husband. He painted a picture of the family being represented at the voting booth by the husband. If a woman has no husband then she could vote, but otherwise he believes women should be represented by their husbands at the polls.
How about that ladies?
There were other things that raised my eyebrows but I need to do a bit more research before I write about them.
84 thoughts on “Institute on the Constitution: Notes on Session 10 – War Between the States and Women's Suffrage Dilutes the Franchise”
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Richard said:
I have no agenda, Richard. I have a commitment to t(T)ruth; however, it may discomfit me … or, anyone else.
My master Jesus Christ has a strong message: All worldly victories are temporary, and all “lost causes” will be put before the court again, at the Day of Judgement.
Also my master doesn’t approve of wars, and certainly not of “holy wars” – the attempts to sanctify Lincoln’s war are quite useless.
Pat – The League appeals to “the War for Southern Independence” – to them it was not just Lincoln’s war but a war to liberate them. It does no good to associate it with Lincoln as if he simply wanted to go to war. All efforts to reduce the Civil War to a simple set of factors with one side being all good and the other being all bad is revisionism.
My master Jesus Christ has a strong message: All worldly victories are temporary, and all “lost causes” will be put before the court again, at the Day of Judgement.
Also my master doesn’t approve of wars, and certainly not of “holy wars” – the attempts to sanctify Lincoln’s war are quite useless.
Pat – The League appeals to “the War for Southern Independence” – to them it was not just Lincoln’s war but a war to liberate them. It does no good to associate it with Lincoln as if he simply wanted to go to war. All efforts to reduce the Civil War to a simple set of factors with one side being all good and the other being all bad is revisionism.
Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the last half of the 19th century when the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments were passed. The traitorous southern states lost the War of Southern Rebellion, now grow up and stop all this teenage-like nullification.
The South lost, get over it.
Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the last half of the 19th century when the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments were passed. The traitorous southern states lost the War of Southern Rebellion, now grow up and stop all this teenage-like nullification.
The South lost, get over it.
(Nor is ‘truth’ the same as ‘fact’ in science, by the way. Facts are [revealed by] experimental results; ‘truth’ is concerned what is might be able to be deduced from the facts. Scientists, [preferably!] on the basis of facts, will propose theories; those theories are not the ‘truth’, but they are [or should be] the best available approximations to the ‘truth’ at a given juncture. As someone who has undertaken scientific research – producing a thesis with the catchy title “Mechanisms of Nitration and Oxidation in solutions of Dinitrogen Pentaoxide in Nitric Acid” [excellent reading for the insomniac!] – I have proposed theories about particular chemical processes. I expect other to improve on those theories – to find better [and this where ‘praxis’ often comes in] approximations to the ‘truth’ about what just what is going on those little ol’ test tubes. But this is not just how science works – it is how LIFE [you know, that thing that God has given to us] works. Falling back on [IMO highly defective] assertions like ‘slavery is biblical’ is tantamount to living life in reverse gear! I would suggest that such ‘backsliding’ is most certainly against devine and natural law; as creatures in God’s image, we are ‘hard-wired’ to want ‘a better tomorrow’ … so thinking that ‘yesterday’s failed ideas’ might have ‘creative merit’ strikes me as both silly and anti-christian. Yes, the fact is that the Church has ‘tolerated’ [or worse] slavery; but the Truth is something else.)
(Some people confuse ‘truth’ with ‘fact’; they are not the same thing in Christian dialectics … or indeed in the dialectics of many other faiths and philosophies.)
But your statement “Slavery is NOT against the Divine or natural law. Period.” is a bald assertion that flies in the face of what we know to be true from human experience and, I would argue, words of Jesus.
Truth is not an abstract concept; it is about what promotes human dignity and the common good. Truth without praxis is useless and meaningless.
(Nor is ‘truth’ the same as ‘fact’ in science, by the way. Facts are [revealed by] experimental results; ‘truth’ is concerned what is might be able to be deduced from the facts. Scientists, [preferably!] on the basis of facts, will propose theories; those theories are not the ‘truth’, but they are [or should be] the best available approximations to the ‘truth’ at a given juncture. As someone who has undertaken scientific research – producing a thesis with the catchy title “Mechanisms of Nitration and Oxidation in solutions of Dinitrogen Pentaoxide in Nitric Acid” [excellent reading for the insomniac!] – I have proposed theories about particular chemical processes. I expect other to improve on those theories – to find better [and this where ‘praxis’ often comes in] approximations to the ‘truth’ about what just what is going on those little ol’ test tubes. But this is not just how science works – it is how LIFE [you know, that thing that God has given to us] works. Falling back on [IMO highly defective] assertions like ‘slavery is biblical’ is tantamount to living life in reverse gear! I would suggest that such ‘backsliding’ is most certainly against devine and natural law; as creatures in God’s image, we are ‘hard-wired’ to want ‘a better tomorrow’ … so thinking that ‘yesterday’s failed ideas’ might have ‘creative merit’ strikes me as both silly and anti-christian. Yes, the fact is that the Church has ‘tolerated’ [or worse] slavery; but the Truth is something else.)
(Some people confuse ‘truth’ with ‘fact’; they are not the same thing in Christian dialectics … or indeed in the dialectics of many other faiths and philosophies.)
But your statement “Slavery is NOT against the Divine or natural law. Period.” is a bald assertion that flies in the face of what we know to be true from human experience and, I would argue, words of Jesus.
Truth is not an abstract concept; it is about what promotes human dignity and the common good. Truth without praxis is useless and meaningless.
Richard said:
I have no agenda, Richard. I have a commitment to t(T)ruth; however, it may discomfit me … or, anyone else.
(Of course, the Church has tacked and weaved and compromised down the ages … and still does those things; it may also be the case that some kind of prime facie case for slavery being ‘biblical’ – given certain understandings of the nature and purpose of Scripture – might be made. But to suggest that slavery is in any way ‘Christian’ is surely to descend into abject nonsense.)
We should never be ‘slaves’ to words on a page, Teresa.
However ‘sacred’ they may be, the texts that make up the Canon of Scripture were written by people who were ‘in contexts’ and who ‘had agendas’. This is a reality with a God who chooses to work through humanity
Ultimately, the Word comes through a Person, and that Person said “always treat others …”
(I’m surprised at you, Teresa – and slightly wondering what is your agenda here.)
Tom said:
Absolutely, poppycock, Tom. We’re to take a one-off statement from a 7th Century Queen-Saint as from the Church? We wait some centuries later to hear from the Papacy, and only in specific cases … not a papal pronouncement declaring slavery, per se, in and of itself, as evil. It simply does not have the authority to state that; else, it would be going against one of the 2 foundations of Revelation: Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
The Church, Herself, was mired in slavery. As the “barbarians” converted, the Church amassed thousands of slaves bequeathed them from the newly converted pagans. Monasteries, abbeys became slaveholders. And, they did not enmasse emancipate those slaves lickety-split, and with good reason. Convents and some priests, bishops in the antebellum South had slaves, and held those slaves without Vatican censure.
It is certainly clear, that the Church tried to ameliorate the conditions of the slave and of slavery, in general. She spoke clearly about the spiritual, emotional and physical dangers to the slaveholder and the slave. She spoke against treating slaves as property, per se, without protection of basic human rights. She was adamantly opposed to simply snatching persons where they lived, and making them slaves … unless, there was war and persons became slaves as a result of becoming prisoners of war, criminals, volunteer indentured. She would prefer slavery not be in the world, but She does not say it cannot be in the world.
Listen up: slavery is NOT against the Divine or natural law. Period. That statement simply will not hold because of Sacred Scripture, including the New Testament. That we’ve become “enlightened” (whatever that means) in the last couple hundred years does not change Scripture.
(Of course, the Church has tacked and weaved and compromised down the ages … and still does those things; it may also be the case that some kind of prime facie case for slavery being ‘biblical’ – given certain understandings of the nature and purpose of Scripture – might be made. But to suggest that slavery is in any way ‘Christian’ is surely to descend into abject nonsense.)
We should never be ‘slaves’ to words on a page, Teresa.
However ‘sacred’ they may be, the texts that make up the Canon of Scripture were written by people who were ‘in contexts’ and who ‘had agendas’. This is a reality with a God who chooses to work through humanity
Ultimately, the Word comes through a Person, and that Person said “always treat others …”
(I’m surprised at you, Teresa – and slightly wondering what is your agenda here.)
Tom said:
Absolutely, poppycock, Tom. We’re to take a one-off statement from a 7th Century Queen-Saint as from the Church? We wait some centuries later to hear from the Papacy, and only in specific cases … not a papal pronouncement declaring slavery, per se, in and of itself, as evil. It simply does not have the authority to state that; else, it would be going against one of the 2 foundations of Revelation: Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
The Church, Herself, was mired in slavery. As the “barbarians” converted, the Church amassed thousands of slaves bequeathed them from the newly converted pagans. Monasteries, abbeys became slaveholders. And, they did not enmasse emancipate those slaves lickety-split, and with good reason. Convents and some priests, bishops in the antebellum South had slaves, and held those slaves without Vatican censure.
It is certainly clear, that the Church tried to ameliorate the conditions of the slave and of slavery, in general. She spoke clearly about the spiritual, emotional and physical dangers to the slaveholder and the slave. She spoke against treating slaves as property, per se, without protection of basic human rights. She was adamantly opposed to simply snatching persons where they lived, and making them slaves … unless, there was war and persons became slaves as a result of becoming prisoners of war, criminals, volunteer indentured. She would prefer slavery not be in the world, but She does not say it cannot be in the world.
Listen up: slavery is NOT against the Divine or natural law. Period. That statement simply will not hold because of Sacred Scripture, including the New Testament. That we’ve become “enlightened” (whatever that means) in the last couple hundred years does not change Scripture.
“Les – What about the term War for Southern Independence? Doesn’t it seem odd to use that term now?”
Warren. Perhaps this is where a personal conversation would find our views in sync. If referring to historical terminology, then “War for Southern Independence” is one of the common terms for the events of 150 years ago, and inoffensive. IF it is used as a call for action after 1865, then it is treasonous and often a euphemism for racism.
“the proper term for the Civil War is “The War of Northern Aggression.”
Tom. My 1960s college professor frequently used that term, always with a twinkle in his eye and a smile. To some extent it was good-natured pulling the chain of the many northern students in class, the majority with family names of the post-Civil war Italian and Eastern European immigrant waves. That was almost a half-century ago. It’s dangerous if radical extremists take that terminology as an excuse for political action or victimization mentality — strains of the sort of thinking common in Europe before WWII and in the Middle East today. Everybody loses.
“Les – What about the term War for Southern Independence? Doesn’t it seem odd to use that term now?”
Warren. Perhaps this is where a personal conversation would find our views in sync. If referring to historical terminology, then “War for Southern Independence” is one of the common terms for the events of 150 years ago, and inoffensive. IF it is used as a call for action after 1865, then it is treasonous and often a euphemism for racism.
“the proper term for the Civil War is “The War of Northern Aggression.”
Tom. My 1960s college professor frequently used that term, always with a twinkle in his eye and a smile. To some extent it was good-natured pulling the chain of the many northern students in class, the majority with family names of the post-Civil war Italian and Eastern European immigrant waves. That was almost a half-century ago. It’s dangerous if radical extremists take that terminology as an excuse for political action or victimization mentality — strains of the sort of thinking common in Europe before WWII and in the Middle East today. Everybody loses.
I don’t think that a Christian who justifies the draft has no reason to think himself better than another Christian who justifies slavery.
“He compared the military draft and income tax to the enslavement of blacks. To me, this comparison crudely minimizes the awfulness of slavery.”
Denying this comparison, to me, crudely minimizes the awfulness of the draft.
Pat – Throughout our history, men have been expected to come to defense of the nation/state. The framers debated adding a religious exception to the requirement that men form a militia when needed. They didn’t. Many of them distrusted standing armies and expected all able bodied men to serve. Peroutka had no trouble with explaining the militia that way when discussing the 2nd amendment. All of a sudden he has a problem with compulsory service when discussing the 14th Amendment.
@ Zoe
Specifically on the point of ‘creationism’: I support the idea that it should be admitted (though not in a ‘science’ book – since ‘creationists” contentions are not based on scientific evidence) that the theory of ‘creationism’ is sincerely held by some people.
I would, of course, argue against the theory of ‘creationism’ on the grounds that the purpose of those myths in the early part of the Book of Genesis are not to present historical or scientist fact, but are about moral truths (the need for people to have a day of rest each week in order to function well; the responsibility of human persons to care for the planet as ‘stewards’; the horrible damage we do when we ‘play at being God’; etc).
Teresa cited people who were clearly experiencing ‘inner conflict’ with respect to the issue of slavery. And one can see why they did.
It is of course true that Jesus spoke, in what has become know as The Sermon on the Mount, of his not abolishing the law; but look at the ‘peroration’: “So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the Law and the Prophets” (Matt 7 : 12 NJB) – a pretty uncompromising statement. And again, when a young theologian (aka. lawyer) asks Jesus what he must do “to inherit eternal life” (Luke 10 : 25 NJB), Jesus asks him both what is written in the Law and how he ‘reads’ (aka. understands) it. This exchange goes on into the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
Now, I strongly suspect that noone (‘Rousass’ included) would like to be enslaved. Therefore – if my suspicions are correct – noone, according to the words of Jesus, should seek or promote the enslavement of others. One can only attempt to justify slavery if one first ‘waters down’ what Jesus is reported to have said. Those Christian thinkers understood that, but were also confronted with bits of text that appeared to say ‘slavery was okay’. Hence their conundrum.
Much of the Church (in ‘the West’) has now ‘moved on’, and seeks to work on the clear paradigm that it’s “Jesus first; book(s) second”. (Among other things, advances in our scientific knowledge about all kinds of things have forced us to re-evaluate certain ‘biblical’ positions we may have held in the past.) And that would be my paradigm. If I’m wrong, then I am happy to be heretic! But I don’t believe I am.
(BTW, I value it when people tell me I’m wrong about something … so, by Matt 7 :12, I can ‘biblically’ justify my statements of opposition to the ‘bibliolators’. 😉 )
I don’t think that a Christian who justifies the draft has no reason to think himself better than another Christian who justifies slavery.
“He compared the military draft and income tax to the enslavement of blacks. To me, this comparison crudely minimizes the awfulness of slavery.”
Denying this comparison, to me, crudely minimizes the awfulness of the draft.
Pat – Throughout our history, men have been expected to come to defense of the nation/state. The framers debated adding a religious exception to the requirement that men form a militia when needed. They didn’t. Many of them distrusted standing armies and expected all able bodied men to serve. Peroutka had no trouble with explaining the militia that way when discussing the 2nd amendment. All of a sudden he has a problem with compulsory service when discussing the 14th Amendment.
Try again!
Yes – I think the ‘bibliolatry’ and the highly relativistic idea of what constitutes ‘being biblical’ are the key problems.
Yes – I think the ‘bibliolatry’ and the highly relativistic of the idea of what constitutes ‘being biblical’ are the key problems.
@ Zoe
Specifically on the point of ‘creationism’: I support the idea that it should be admitted (though not in a ‘science’ book – since ‘creationists” contentions are not based on scientific evidence) that the theory of ‘creationism’ is sincerely held by some people.
I would, of course, argue against the theory of ‘creationism’ on the grounds that the purpose of those myths in the early part of the Book of Genesis are not to present historical or scientist fact, but are about moral truths (the need for people to have a day of rest each week in order to function well; the responsibility of human persons to care for the planet as ‘stewards’; the horrible damage we do when we ‘play at being God’; etc).
Teresa cited people who were clearly experiencing ‘inner conflict’ with respect to the issue of slavery. And one can see why they did.
It is of course true that Jesus spoke, in what has become know as The Sermon on the Mount, of his not abolishing the law; but look at the ‘peroration’: “So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the Law and the Prophets” (Matt 7 : 12 NJB) – a pretty uncompromising statement. And again, when a young theologian (aka. lawyer) asks Jesus what he must do “to inherit eternal life” (Luke 10 : 25 NJB), Jesus asks him both what is written in the Law and how he ‘reads’ (aka. understands) it. This exchange goes on into the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
Now, I strongly suspect that noone (‘Rousass’ included) would like to be enslaved. Therefore – if my suspicions are correct – noone, according to the words of Jesus, should seek or promote the enslavement of others. One can only attempt to justify slavery if one first ‘waters down’ what Jesus is reported to have said. Those Christian thinkers understood that, but were also confronted with bits of text that appeared to say ‘slavery was okay’. Hence their conundrum.
Much of the Church (in ‘the West’) has now ‘moved on’, and seeks to work on the clear paradigm that it’s “Jesus first; book(s) second”. (Among other things, advances in our scientific knowledge about all kinds of things have forced us to re-evaluate certain ‘biblical’ positions we may have held in the past.) And that would be my paradigm. If I’m wrong, then I am happy to be heretic! But I don’t believe I am.
(BTW, I value it when people tell me I’m wrong about something … so, by Matt 7 :12, I can ‘biblically’ justify my statements of opposition to the ‘bibliolators’. 😉 )
Try again!
Yes – I think the ‘bibliolatry’ and the highly relativistic idea of what constitutes ‘being biblical’ are the key problems.
Yes – I think the ‘bibliolatry’ and the highly relativistic of the idea of what constitutes ‘being biblical’ are the key problems.
Example:
Richard Wilmer wrote:
And many Protestant sects in the USA do explicitly and unashamedly idolise the Bible.
See
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
A practical definition is “irrational, cruel and hypocritical, superficially based on a convenient interpretation of a chosen translation of fragments of a selected set of ancient written works of mixed and often dubious authenticity”.
A more exact meaning is “whatever a person who commonly uses the word thinks it means.”
Thus “Biblical Science”, “Biblical Counselling”, “Biblical education”, “Biblical Child-rearing”, and even “Biblical Government”.
Example:
Richard Wilmer wrote:
And many Protestant sects in the USA do explicitly and unashamedly idolise the Bible.
See
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
A practical definition is “irrational, cruel and hypocritical, superficially based on a convenient interpretation of a chosen translation of fragments of a selected set of ancient written works of mixed and often dubious authenticity”.
A more exact meaning is “whatever a person who commonly uses the word thinks it means.”
Thus “Biblical Science”, “Biblical Counselling”, “Biblical education”, “Biblical Child-rearing”, and even “Biblical Government”.
@ Teresa
You said “… we best be prepared to acknowledge that fact before we start creating an illusory Christianity from our own delusional thinking.”
This is perhaps the really important point: when – as we probably all do – we (ab)use fragments of the Canon of Sacred Scripture, taken out of context, to justify what our personal and social consciences tell us is unjustifiable, we are indeed batting on a very ‘sticky wicket’.
Those who today seek to use Scripture to justify slavery must take into account that they are doing so in pursuance of their political agendas, and then ask themselves some very serious questions about their method and motives.
A couple of points–
–In the ancient world, slavery was often a mercy for criminals, rebels and prisoners of war–the alternative was killing them.
–There was also the belief [and perhaps a reality] that some people couldn’t make it on their own and therefore were “natural” slaves [see Aristotle], to be protected as much as “exploited.”
–It was argued [well, IMO] by Christian abolitionists that had Christ or Christianity fought for abolition in the Roman days, Christianity would have become a violent political movement in this world instead of a peace-loving religion with a message of hope for the next. Of course, that also meant that the biblical “approvals” [“slaves obey your masters”] of slavery were no longer relevant in the 1800s.
–The “common knowledge” about the role of the Roman Church might stand for a reevaluation, such as
The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery
The problem wasn’t that the leadership was silent. It was that almost nobody listened.
Rodney Stark
&c.
(The point is really that, if we idolize the Bible, we end up in all kinds of messes.)
(Or again, we might look at Abraham’s rather ‘complex family arrangements’: would ‘Rousass’ consider these to be ‘biblical’? After all, they are reported in the Bible and are not explicitly condemned.)
(Just to look at another issue for a moment: leprosy. Jesus effectively overturned the prescription, in Leviticus, for the treatment of lepers. He did not allow himself to be ‘enslaved’ by words on a bit of parchment, or whatever the texts that eventually came to be the Book of Leviticus were written on …)
@ Teresa
I think it’s important first of all to establish what one really means by ‘biblical’, and – more importantly – ‘Christian’. We should also recognize that these two terms can be regarded as being far from synonymous. It is, after all, ‘Christianity’, not ‘biblianity’! 😉
What particular Christians have said at various points in history is something that can be looked at, but in a proper historical context, of course, and remembering that ‘human progress’ is something that can and does occur.
Slavery, at best, has a tortuous history within Christianity, as well as a complex definition. It cannot denounce slavery, simply because it has Sacred Scripture (Biblical, Richard) as a substantiation for this institution. Zoe has offered substantial quoted proof for this.
The Catholic Church, Luther, Calvin could not denounce slavery, per se. “Just Tide” or “Just Title” slavery (slavery by way of prisoners of war, criminal punishment slaves, voluntary indentured slavery … a father giving away his son) was not seen as opposed to human, natural, or Divine Law. What was excoriated within slavery was “chattel” slavery, property as such … loss of certain human rights. This became such a mare’s nest to separate that it’s almost useless to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding proper treatment of slaves.
In 1866 the Holy Office, in response to an inquiry from Africa, ruled that although slavery (servitus) was undesirable, it was not per se opposed to natural or divine law.
The topic of slavery is a sticky wicket, and we best be prepared to acknowledge that fact before we start creating an illusory Christianity from our own delusional thinking. One would be hard-pressed to find leading Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian hierarchy being “unqualified” abolitionists in the antebellum period.
@ Teresa
You said “… we best be prepared to acknowledge that fact before we start creating an illusory Christianity from our own delusional thinking.”
This is perhaps the really important point: when – as we probably all do – we (ab)use fragments of the Canon of Sacred Scripture, taken out of context, to justify what our personal and social consciences tell us is unjustifiable, we are indeed batting on a very ‘sticky wicket’.
Those who today seek to use Scripture to justify slavery must take into account that they are doing so in pursuance of their political agendas, and then ask themselves some very serious questions about their method and motives.
@ Zoe
What do you understand by the term ‘biblical’? Let’s start there.
A couple of points–
–In the ancient world, slavery was often a mercy for criminals, rebels and prisoners of war–the alternative was killing them.
–There was also the belief [and perhaps a reality] that some people couldn’t make it on their own and therefore were “natural” slaves [see Aristotle], to be protected as much as “exploited.”
–It was argued [well, IMO] by Christian abolitionists that had Christ or Christianity fought for abolition in the Roman days, Christianity would have become a violent political movement in this world instead of a peace-loving religion with a message of hope for the next. Of course, that also meant that the biblical “approvals” [“slaves obey your masters”] of slavery were no longer relevant in the 1800s.
–The “common knowledge” about the role of the Roman Church might stand for a reevaluation, such as
The Truth About the Catholic Church and Slavery
The problem wasn’t that the leadership was silent. It was that almost nobody listened.
Rodney Stark
&c.
(The point is really that, if we idolize the Bible, we end up in all kinds of messes.)
(Or again, we might look at Abraham’s rather ‘complex family arrangements’: would ‘Rousass’ consider these to be ‘biblical’? After all, they are reported in the Bible and are not explicitly condemned.)
(Just to look at another issue for a moment: leprosy. Jesus effectively overturned the prescription, in Leviticus, for the treatment of lepers. He did not allow himself to be ‘enslaved’ by words on a bit of parchment, or whatever the texts that eventually came to be the Book of Leviticus were written on …)
@ Teresa
I think it’s important first of all to establish what one really means by ‘biblical’, and – more importantly – ‘Christian’. We should also recognize that these two terms can be regarded as being far from synonymous. It is, after all, ‘Christianity’, not ‘biblianity’! 😉
What particular Christians have said at various points in history is something that can be looked at, but in a proper historical context, of course, and remembering that ‘human progress’ is something that can and does occur.
Slavery, at best, has a tortuous history within Christianity, as well as a complex definition. It cannot denounce slavery, simply because it has Sacred Scripture (Biblical, Richard) as a substantiation for this institution. Zoe has offered substantial quoted proof for this.
The Catholic Church, Luther, Calvin could not denounce slavery, per se. “Just Tide” or “Just Title” slavery (slavery by way of prisoners of war, criminal punishment slaves, voluntary indentured slavery … a father giving away his son) was not seen as opposed to human, natural, or Divine Law. What was excoriated within slavery was “chattel” slavery, property as such … loss of certain human rights. This became such a mare’s nest to separate that it’s almost useless to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding proper treatment of slaves.
In 1866 the Holy Office, in response to an inquiry from Africa, ruled that although slavery (servitus) was undesirable, it was not per se opposed to natural or divine law.
The topic of slavery is a sticky wicket, and we best be prepared to acknowledge that fact before we start creating an illusory Christianity from our own delusional thinking. One would be hard-pressed to find leading Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian hierarchy being “unqualified” abolitionists in the antebellum period.
I’ve missed out a few of course. I’ll just include a few more New Testament ones:
Colossians 4:1 KJV
Ephesians 6:5 NIV
1 Peter 2:18 NIV
Titus 2:9-10 NIV
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
(Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Of course that’s the Old Law. There’s a good argument to say that it has been abrogated, despite Matthew 5:18 (I’ll use the KJV here)
So let’s look at the New Testament:
(Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
The reason for the Southern Baptist Convention’s split from the North was over different interpretations of the Bible. One party thought it inherently inhuman, the other thought it permissible, even blessed, as long as slaves were treated with some humanity.
So yes, of course it’s “Biblical”. A lot of things are, you can cherrypick whatever is most convenient to back up your pre-judged position.
Then there’s this:
(1 Timothy 2:9-12 KJV)
9-10 I agree with, and try to live by. 11-12… let’s just say I disagree, and with actions not just words.
You can claim this is “out of context”, “metaphorical” or whatever. That’s what the words plainly say though. For those who believe the Bible is inerrant and literally true, that the authors of the KJV 1610 version were inspired to transcribe the literal Word of God, this is what you’re compelled to believe.
A minority of those who call themselves “Christian”, to be sure. A minority of those of the Religious Right? If so, a very substantial one.
@ Zoe
What do you understand by the term ‘biblical’? Let’s start there.
Whoops … too early!
My first ‘question’ should have read:
“1. what people like Rousass think the term ‘biblical’ means (and I suspect that this understanding of what constitutes ‘being biblical’ is the core of the problem);”
I’ve missed out a few of course. I’ll just include a few more New Testament ones:
Colossians 4:1 KJV
Ephesians 6:5 NIV
1 Peter 2:18 NIV
Titus 2:9-10 NIV
I’m still fascinated by Rousass’s assertion that ‘slavery is biblical’.
I’d be really interested to know
1. what people like Rousass think the term ‘biblical’ means (and I suspect that this understand is what constitutes ‘being biblical’ is the core of the problem);
2. how one can justify the use of the Bible to justify something to which we would not (rightly, in my view) want to be subjected.
Or is ‘Rousass’ one of those commenters who churns out arbitrary assertions and then makes a quick exit lest she/he finds the ensuing dialogue too ‘challenging’?
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
(Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Of course that’s the Old Law. There’s a good argument to say that it has been abrogated, despite Matthew 5:18 (I’ll use the KJV here)
So let’s look at the New Testament:
(Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
The reason for the Southern Baptist Convention’s split from the North was over different interpretations of the Bible. One party thought it inherently inhuman, the other thought it permissible, even blessed, as long as slaves were treated with some humanity.
So yes, of course it’s “Biblical”. A lot of things are, you can cherrypick whatever is most convenient to back up your pre-judged position.
Then there’s this:
(1 Timothy 2:9-12 KJV)
9-10 I agree with, and try to live by. 11-12… let’s just say I disagree, and with actions not just words.
You can claim this is “out of context”, “metaphorical” or whatever. That’s what the words plainly say though. For those who believe the Bible is inerrant and literally true, that the authors of the KJV 1610 version were inspired to transcribe the literal Word of God, this is what you’re compelled to believe.
A minority of those who call themselves “Christian”, to be sure. A minority of those of the Religious Right? If so, a very substantial one.
Whoops … too early!
My first ‘question’ should have read:
“1. what people like Rousass think the term ‘biblical’ means (and I suspect that this understanding of what constitutes ‘being biblical’ is the core of the problem);”
I’m still fascinated by Rousass’s assertion that ‘slavery is biblical’.
I’d be really interested to know
1. what people like Rousass think the term ‘biblical’ means (and I suspect that this understand is what constitutes ‘being biblical’ is the core of the problem);
2. how one can justify the use of the Bible to justify something to which we would not (rightly, in my view) want to be subjected.
Or is ‘Rousass’ one of those commenters who churns out arbitrary assertions and then makes a quick exit lest she/he finds the ensuing dialogue too ‘challenging’?
Les – What about the term War for Southern Independence?
FTR, the proper term for the Civil War is “The War of Northern Aggression.”
;-O
@ Ken,
“Simply because one of the issues he raises may have some academic merit, doesn’t suddenly make Peroutka’s motivations valid”
The reverse is also true and is what I was getting at. Simply because his motivation is derived from some neo confederate sympathies doesnt make it a non issue, scholarly/academically speaking that is, and linking it with the League of the South doesnt render it so. I was just trying to make it known that you dont have to have neo confederate sympathies, I dont have any, to look at this issue apart from that historical context. Whatever his motivation were the question is still a valid one.
@ Warren,
Thanks for being willing to look at that honestly. I expected that from a true scholar like yourself. Like I said you do awesome work and I frequent your blog frequently for solid info. Please keep up the good work!
Javier and Les – Thanks for your comments. I am certainly willing to hear additional views on these matters. Historically these views have been associated with Lost Cause literature but I am sure that others have adopted them without the baggage of that movement. I probably am reading Peroutka’s remarks, in part, through the lens of his leadership in the League.
Les – What about the term War for Southern Independence? Doesn’t it seem odd to use that term now?
(My own view is that those who cling to this ridiculous ‘slavery is biblical’ nonsense have allowed themselves to be blinded to deep, universal truths by narrow cultural and political considerations.
It is also the case that the ‘racist right’ wishes to reserve slavery to only certain sections of the population; they would in all probability be hypocritically horrified at the idea that they should, according to their own ‘biblical’ logic, have an equal opportunity of being enslaved themselves!
But I’ll hear what ‘Rousass’ has to say on the Bible before I cite my own biblically- and theologically-based arguments against the notion that ‘slavery is biblical’. More important, of course, is the contention that slavery is anti-Christian. After all, we Christians worship Christ, and not a book, so all this ‘this / that / the other is [allegedly] biblical’ stuff is ultimately of secondary importance.)
“Slavery is biblical.” Really?! How so?
I normally feel well informed by your comments, especially about Barton’s twisting of facts. You are always spot on that issue. Also usually agree with your views about the bigoted League of the South.
However, today’s comments are over-the-top accusations. The formal term for the 1861-65 war in my 1960s high school and college American history courses was always the “War Between the States.” Each teacher or professor carefully explained why the northern term “Civil War” was inaccurate political propaganda. Those views are held not only by League of the South extremists, but by most Southerners of the past 1-1/2 centuries, including moderates. It’s a regional issue, and not one of the sort of religious or racial bigotry on which you usually comment so well informed.
Les – What about the term War for Southern Independence?
FTR, the proper term for the Civil War is “The War of Northern Aggression.”
;-O
@ Ken,
“Simply because one of the issues he raises may have some academic merit, doesn’t suddenly make Peroutka’s motivations valid”
The reverse is also true and is what I was getting at. Simply because his motivation is derived from some neo confederate sympathies doesnt make it a non issue, scholarly/academically speaking that is, and linking it with the League of the South doesnt render it so. I was just trying to make it known that you dont have to have neo confederate sympathies, I dont have any, to look at this issue apart from that historical context. Whatever his motivation were the question is still a valid one.
@ Warren,
Thanks for being willing to look at that honestly. I expected that from a true scholar like yourself. Like I said you do awesome work and I frequent your blog frequently for solid info. Please keep up the good work!
Javier and Les – Thanks for your comments. I am certainly willing to hear additional views on these matters. Historically these views have been associated with Lost Cause literature but I am sure that others have adopted them without the baggage of that movement. I probably am reading Peroutka’s remarks, in part, through the lens of his leadership in the League.
Les – What about the term War for Southern Independence? Doesn’t it seem odd to use that term now?
(My own view is that those who cling to this ridiculous ‘slavery is biblical’ nonsense have allowed themselves to be blinded to deep, universal truths by narrow cultural and political considerations.
It is also the case that the ‘racist right’ wishes to reserve slavery to only certain sections of the population; they would in all probability be hypocritically horrified at the idea that they should, according to their own ‘biblical’ logic, have an equal opportunity of being enslaved themselves!
But I’ll hear what ‘Rousass’ has to say on the Bible before I cite my own biblically- and theologically-based arguments against the notion that ‘slavery is biblical’. More important, of course, is the contention that slavery is anti-Christian. After all, we Christians worship Christ, and not a book, so all this ‘this / that / the other is [allegedly] biblical’ stuff is ultimately of secondary importance.)
“Slavery is biblical.” Really?! How so?
I normally feel well informed by your comments, especially about Barton’s twisting of facts. You are always spot on that issue. Also usually agree with your views about the bigoted League of the South.
However, today’s comments are over-the-top accusations. The formal term for the 1861-65 war in my 1960s high school and college American history courses was always the “War Between the States.” Each teacher or professor carefully explained why the northern term “Civil War” was inaccurate political propaganda. Those views are held not only by League of the South extremists, but by most Southerners of the past 1-1/2 centuries, including moderates. It’s a regional issue, and not one of the sort of religious or racial bigotry on which you usually comment so well informed.
Roussas# ~ Sep 14, 2013 at 4:10 am
“By what standard do you criticize Peroutka?”
By the standard of US Civil law, not Biblical law.
Javier Ramirez# ~ Sep 14, 2013 at 7:48 am
“I strongly take issue with the statement that Peroutka’s case for the 14th amendment not properly being ratified is “Consistent with his status of board member of the League of the South”. Sorry but that is a cheap shot.”
Simply because one of the issues he raises may have some academic merit, doesn’t suddenly make Peroutka’s motivations valid. The League of the South promotes southern secession and an all white government. Peroutka’s use of the issues regarding the ratification of the 14th amendment is consistent with that goal.
I hate to have to respectfully disagree with you since up to now I have been and still am a great fan of your work to expose the likes of Barton and his pseudo history writings. I strongly take issue with the statement that Peroutka’s case for the 14th amendment not properly being ratified is “Consistent with his status of board member of the League of the South”. Sorry but that is a cheap shot. I havent heard his talk on this but the 14th amendment’s ratification has been the topic of serious scholarly study by serious academic scholar historians. One is by Forrest McDonald in the Georgia Journal of Southern Legal History http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/jslh1&div=6&id=&page=
Another hard hitting look is in the Alabama Law Review looking at the gross irregularities of the ratification process which you can read here http://www.law.ua.edu/pubs/lrarticles/Volume%2053/Issue%202/Bryant.pdf
And finally a very important paper in the Western New England Law Review on Ohio’s ratification and its reasons for their later rescinding it http://digitalcommons.law.wne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1097&context=lawreview
I’m pretty sure McDonald and the other writers aren’t affiliated with the League of the South. I agree that in this stage of history its all academic but its an all important academic discussion. This has nothing to do with having neo confederate sympathies but is a serious historical question
Roussas# ~ Sep 14, 2013 at 4:10 am
“By what standard do you criticize Peroutka?”
By the standard of US Civil law, not Biblical law.
Javier Ramirez# ~ Sep 14, 2013 at 7:48 am
“I strongly take issue with the statement that Peroutka’s case for the 14th amendment not properly being ratified is “Consistent with his status of board member of the League of the South”. Sorry but that is a cheap shot.”
Simply because one of the issues he raises may have some academic merit, doesn’t suddenly make Peroutka’s motivations valid. The League of the South promotes southern secession and an all white government. Peroutka’s use of the issues regarding the ratification of the 14th amendment is consistent with that goal.
By what standard do you criticize Peroutka? Slavery is biblical. Coverture (in which the husband represents his wife in all legal, civic, and political matters) is biblical. Both of these practices have been the bulwark of Christian civilization for centuries.
If you find Peroutka’s views to be odd and they cause your eyebrows to be raised, then that only proves that you don’t know your Bible. Can you truly say that you know Christ if you don’t know your Bible?
I hate to have to respectfully disagree with you since up to now I have been and still am a great fan of your work to expose the likes of Barton and his pseudo history writings. I strongly take issue with the statement that Peroutka’s case for the 14th amendment not properly being ratified is “Consistent with his status of board member of the League of the South”. Sorry but that is a cheap shot. I havent heard his talk on this but the 14th amendment’s ratification has been the topic of serious scholarly study by serious academic scholar historians. One is by Forrest McDonald in the Georgia Journal of Southern Legal History http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/jslh1&div=6&id=&page=
Another hard hitting look is in the Alabama Law Review looking at the gross irregularities of the ratification process which you can read here http://www.law.ua.edu/pubs/lrarticles/Volume%2053/Issue%202/Bryant.pdf
And finally a very important paper in the Western New England Law Review on Ohio’s ratification and its reasons for their later rescinding it http://digitalcommons.law.wne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1097&context=lawreview
I’m pretty sure McDonald and the other writers aren’t affiliated with the League of the South. I agree that in this stage of history its all academic but its an all important academic discussion. This has nothing to do with having neo confederate sympathies but is a serious historical question
By what standard do you criticize Peroutka? Slavery is biblical. Coverture (in which the husband represents his wife in all legal, civic, and political matters) is biblical. Both of these practices have been the bulwark of Christian civilization for centuries.
If you find Peroutka’s views to be odd and they cause your eyebrows to be raised, then that only proves that you don’t know your Bible. Can you truly say that you know Christ if you don’t know your Bible?