Really? Uganda hired a firm to polish up the nation’s image around the world. Watch:
I don’t envy this firm.
Because of David Bahati and those who support him, Uganda is known around the world for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. The attention from this bill leads to considerations of corruption and other human rights abuses.
If the bill passes, I suspect pressure will be brought to bear on corporations doing business in Uganda such as Citibank, and Barclays Bank (UK). Various hotel chains doing business there will be targeted. If Starbucks still imports coffee from Uganda, I can imagine an effort to have Starbucks find coffee from somewhere else.
Hedonism is the belief that pleasure is the ultimate goal in life. It does not necessarily imply sexual license, as you suppose. This belief has appeared in a number of cultures, not only ancient Greece, but also in Hinduism. And there are probably others.
Be that as it may, homosexuality is not about the pursuit of pleasure. It is about an innate desire for persons of the same sex. One can be completely celibate and also be homosexual. As I understand it, you would kill even chaste persons who are vocal about their homosexuality. You would certainly kill those who are faithful to one partner, if that partner is of the same sex. You are not fighting hedonism, so please drop that pretense.
When the Bill first broke cover, there was widespread support among the UG body-politic, and principally for two reasons:
1. the true nature and scope of the Bill was not understood, and
2. the international reaction was not anticipated.
Back in December 2009, even ‘Maazi NCO MP’ said that (and I quote him) ‘gays who keep their heads down and do their stuff privately will be left alone’. Oddly, he now knows this is not true, but still supports the Bill – which may indicate that he was laying back then, of course … just as he now accuses Otafiire of lying. (Incidentally, ‘Maazi’ likes to make out that apparent opponents of the Bill are lying to us. Has he not considered the possibility that apparent supporters of the Bills might be lying to – and joyously grunting in order to deceive – him? I think he should.)
Anyway, ‘Maazi NCO MP’ has still not answered my question … so I’ll try again.
‘Maazi’, do you regard the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’? (Yes / No)
@Carol A Ranney: “Please don’t identify all of Christianity with its lowest common denominator.”
I totally agree with your intent, and I don’t mean to nitpick. But lest you be misunderstood, bloodlust is not a “common” denominator at all. It is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, and self-justified only by the ragtag right-wing edges of Christianity. The church of the earliest centuries would hardly permit its members to join the military. Their reasons were multiple. My point is simply that pacifism is a long-honored position in Christianity, and far more true to the faith than any bloodlust or warmongering, despite the blood-stained history of Christendom.
@ Andy
That’s a very interesting point you raise. Notice that, in the BBC article about ‘Paul’, the (‘straight’) Ugandan police allegedly sexually abused (gay) ‘Paul’. And it is generally accepted that, in a very significant proportion of cases of ‘male rape’, the perpetrator presents as ‘straight’ and has consensual sex with women.
(Shortly after the Bahati Bill was first tabled, I heard an amusing anecdote. In it, a Ugandan MP was alleged to have said that wouldn’t want to sit next to Bahati in case he got ‘jumped’! While this was almost certainly just a ‘wise crack’, maybe from one of the more humorous Ugandan MPs, there is a sense in which the violence of the homophobe has much in common with the violence of the abuser/rapist: the complete lack of human feeling towards potential or actual victims, the shouting and screaming, the graphic and/or filthy language, etc.)
Ultimately, sexual abuse is, of course, born of violence and exploitation, and has nothing to do with genuine ‘sexuality’.
I was just about to dismiss this silly comment off-hand when I just remembered something that needed saying.
Now wait for it !!….Here it comes !!! ——
I am nothing like your double-dealing and double-speaking Republican Party hypocrites who say one thing in public and do something entirely opposite in private. As far as most Ugandans (including myself) are concerned, gayism is not in our character and we will NEVER allow it to flourish here. You can accuse me of being anything you fancy, but such a silly comment will not change the fact that on the D-day in parliament, I will gladly vote in favour of the bill once it has been extensively revised to meet my concerns. I may even suggest that we nickname the Bahati Bill, the JCF/Kincaid/Willmer/David/Stephen Solidarity Bill in honour of JCF, Timothy Kincaid, Richard Willmer, David.M and Stephen
I have no illusions that it passing the bill will be the end of the matter. We expect the Euro-American Gay Lobby to fight back with their compromised Western governments trying to force the Museveni government to sabotage its smooth passage and gazetting. We expect the Euro-American Gay Lobby to order their local gay advocate-puppets in Uganda to challenge the law in court. That is probably why it is important that the Bahati Bill is properly crafted so that no judge in Uganda will strike it down. Luckily, Uganda does not have activist judges that legislate from the bench !!! If the provisions in the bill are properly worded there will be no problems !!!
I saw this headline:
“Kids With Gender Noncomformity at Increased Risk for Abuse” on WebMD and other places today like USAToday.
Could this be one reason there seems to be a link between childhood abuse and sexual orientation?
For a long time people have been saying childhood abuse causes homosexuality. I was wondering if the opposite could be true i.e. homosexuality “causes” or precipitates abuse (since gender non-conforming children are more likely to be isolated and vulnerable to attack by unscrupulous people).
@ JCF
You might be correct (for someone who claims not to care what ‘donor countries’ think, ‘Maazi’ does spend an awful lot of time putting his case on this blog), but I doubt it.
‘Maazi’s’ prime motivation is, IMHO, political: what he really wants is to ‘make a point’ to ‘the West’ (which, of course, he likes to visit … which is perhaps one reason for his hiding behind a pseudonym) by bashing his own compatriots. (Some people have no logic! 🙁 ) He can hardly complain if ‘the West’ decides to ‘make a point’ in response.
One (more) error in his thinking is that passing the Bahati Bloodbath Bill (if it ever is passed) would be the end of the matter. In truth, it would just be the beginning …
Hello ‘Maazi’!
My question again:-
Do you regard the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’? (Yes / No)
Maaazziiii’s language is an exact parallel of the Nazi party’s language regarding the Jews. I’m not calling him Hitler. I’m just pointing out that he represents the danger point: where the language of ignorant hate tips into genocide. Does anyone here think that if Maaaaaaaaaazzziii were given a gun and unlimited power that he wouldn’t shoot gay people? All that holds him – and the rest of his vile claque – back is the threat of international sanctions. All that can give hope to Ugandan gays is the threat of US sanctions.
I would suggest that no one here ever engages fag-bashing Maaaaaaazzzzziiiii again. He’s a troll. If you think yo can reach him you’re delusional and vain.
Andy: the reason that there are so many gay kids on the street is that their parents kicked them out. We know we’re gay. The abuse comes from our family. I speak from experience.
(Incidentally, ‘Maazi’ seem to be suggesting the Bahati is incompetent when it comes to crafting legislation. Thus I assume that his answer to my question is an unqualified ‘No’.)
@Maazi NCO: “Do you honestly think that I care a damn whether you believe me or not?”
If you do not care what we believe, then why do you keep coming back here, Maazi?
Since “Maazi” is a pseudonym, I am trying to figure out why you chose it. It is an Urdu word meaning past or history. Could it be that you are a former MP? I find it doubtful that a current UG MP would take time at the hours you do to post on this blog. It’s difficult to know if you are who you say you are or a pretender.
@Maazi: “Balderdash !! gay propaganda !!! … Gay sex practitioners are not an ethnic identity.”
I seem to have struck a nerve. Maazi, you are right they are not an ethnic identity. They are a sexual minority. Some of them are probably members of your family. But one thing is very clear, they did not choose to be attracted to the same sex. And yet, you would punish them for it.
I’ve done some checking on your name in a Ugandan context as you suggested. Apparently in Bantu, maazi means water (I’m not sure of this). In Swahili, maazi means Mars, the god of war.
On the matter of genuine ‘sex crime’ and consensual gay relationships: there is an ocean of difference between two men or two women (remember that Bahati wants to slaughter lesbians as well) living together, and sexual abuse of girls and women by violent, exploitative men. A baby in a pram would understand the difference.
@Maazi: “As far as I am concerned, gay sex practitioners are disturbed individuals that need our help.”
But the law you are backing says they are criminals that should be killed. Which is it, Maazi? Are they sick or are they criminals? Should you help them or kill them? Clearly, Maazi, you do not understand what it is that would make a person want to engage in same-sex behavior. May I suggest to you that it is neither criminality nor sickness, but an innate desire springing from the way God knit some of us together in our mother’s womb. Would you also fight God on this?
So either ‘Maazi’ thinks that ‘helping people’ involves throwing them into prison with common criminals (or even executing them) or he fundamentally disagrees with Bahati. So which is it, I wonder?
You know what? This Maazi person is just a troll. And as they say: Don’t feed the trolls. He’s an ignorant puerile bureaucrat stuck somewhere on the lower echelons of one of Africa’s most corrupt governments. He comes here to make himself feel like he has some significance. A while back I attempted to dignify his crap by characterizing him as a gay boy somewhere in DC. But he’s not worth the effort.
His obsession certainly carries with it the clear indicator of a homosexual man projecting his self-hatred onto those he most desires: gay men. I was closeted once and I pity him because I’ve been there: though I never felt the need to persecute those men I held closest to my heart. I would have been ashamed. OK. Maaaaaaazzzzziiii is beyond shame. But, you know, I have a life. I have work to do. I don’t really care who Maaaaaazzzzziiii is or what he does or what he believes. As anyone can see, he’s a nitwit. A jackanapes. A fool. The perfect exemplar of those small-minded autodidacts marooned in the wake of empire’s retreat. Whatever Uganda’s future might be it clearly won’t be maaaaaaaazzzzziiiiii. He’s the past. So let’s allow him to slink off into the dingy history of the Bahati era.
Lonely Planet named Uganda top tourist destination of 2012. Though there has been a lot of blowback clearly this points the way to the future. Not a hopelessly corrupt political class but the way that more progressive Ugandans can harness the buying power of the west to make the Pearl of Africa the eco-destination of choice. That’s real hope.
Just to take up the ‘Nazi propaganda’ theme: in the early days of their dictatorship, the Nazis used a ‘soft target’ to win cheap popularity (the Jews were targets of suspicion and jealousy, and the Hitlerites capitalized on this). In a sense, gays are a ‘soft target’ in Uganda, and the Bahitlerites are doing much the same thing.
Meanwhile, in Uganda, the sexual abuse and exploitation of girls and women by men carries on apace (I’ve mentioned the 40,000+ schoolgirls scandal a couple of times now). ‘Maazi’ and Co. should focus on dealing with this rather than make a great big fuss about consensual same-sex relationships and harmless so-called ‘gender non-conformity’. They might also consider investigating the sexual abuse by the police of gay detainees (see BBC report above).
@ David M.
Former non-commissioned officer, perhaps?
David M.
I can’t quite work out ‘Maazi’, and what he really wants. He might be some kind of ‘political exhibitionist’. Maybe I’m wrong about the lawyer bit.
Balderdash !! gay propaganda !!! Nobody wants to get anybody killed. But gayism will never be allowed public space and will be contained by law like other sex crimes. I also do not recognize gay sex practitioners as a distinct class of people. Most Africans don’t as well. We reject the pseudo-ethnic identity conferred by the West on sex deviants. As far as I am concerned, gay sex practitioners are disturbed individuals that need our help—- just like necrophiliacs, drug addicts and prostitutes need help to set them on the straight and narrow.Gay sex practitioners are not an ethnic identity.
Thanks for your suggestion. More work is needed to help exploited girls and there are local NGOs working on that. We ought to tackle that matter alongside the problem posed by militant gay sex advocacy. The suggestion that we should tackle one problem (i.e. girl exploitation) and allow the other problem (i.e. militant gayism) to fester is stupid and unacceptable
You’ve not answered my second question (the answer to the first was much as I expected it to be, by the way). I’ll rephrase it, so that you can give a simple yes / no response.
Do you consider the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’?
(And since you are smiling about the Bill, let’s hear those joyous ‘death-grunts’ again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXrllstKOs)
This is just smear tactics for which gay propagandists are well known. Gayism is deviant sexual behaviour and has absolute nothing to do with the dignified Jewish people. I have said this several times in the past, no amount of slurring and smearing with silly allegations of Nazism will prevent Ugandan parliament from enacting law banishing sexual deviance from the public arena.
BTW, my response to your previous comments is caught in moderation queue. So it is up to Doc Warren to release it for your perusal
Maybe. He’s certainly playing a strange game, maybe a rather dangerous one. He’s an opposition / independent MP, a lawyer (hence his annoyance with Bahati for his poor drafting), a lapsed Catholic and he doesn’t like the UG Government (for a variety of reasons), though he might have worked for it in some capacity the not-too-distant past. But I have promised not to name names on this blog, and intend to keep that promise.
He repeats himself, and is addicted to cliches, but contained amongst all the verbiage are, from time to time, some interesting ‘nuggets’ of information. That is, I suspect, why we still see his posts. (It was he who confirmed the widely-held suspicion that Speaker, now Vice President, Ssekandi put the kibosh on the Bill last May.)
I do think there are some parallels between Maazi’s rhetoric and Nazi rhetoric. I have refrained from saying so because of the “Argumentum ad Nazium,” that an opponent in an argument will sometimes resort to comparing the other to Hitler or the Nazis. Still, having acknowledged that temptation, the irrational villification of one group was part of Hitler’s conscious rhetorical strategy. He wrote about it. He intentionally blamed the Jews for everything, though in fact he had many enemies.
Richard, are you saying that Maazi intentionally gives us information about what’s going on in UG politics? And are you suggesting you know who Maazi is? If my questions are impertinent, ignore them.
Could well be, stephen. He’s certainly an obsessive personality. (In one sense, I don’t really care about his sexuality – that’s his business; it is the political angle that interests me most.)
David, I share your hesitation but the fact remains that the Maaaazzziii person’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the anti-Semitic language used in France before WWI and in Austria and Germany in the build up to WW II. There is no difference. Don’t take my word for it. Look for yourself and see if you agree.
Let me just say that the anti gay language used here by the Maazziii troll is also very like the anti black language that has been historically used here in the States. I’m happy to say that such racist language is no longer tolerable. Who among us thinks that black people are genetically inferior? That they can’t be trusted not to steal or lie if given the chance? That their willful blackism condemns them to a second rate life begging for scraps from their masters? No one, I would hope. We don’t talk about coons and jigaboos any more. For good reason. Such language is destructive: it limits the aspirations of our neighbors’ lives. The blackest African is very close to the blondest Scandinavian, genetically speaking. Same is true on the sexual spectrum. 50 years ago our evangelical friends condemned race as they now condemn sexuality. 50 years from from now what will be left to condemn?
The following is from an article by Bruce Loebs on “Hitler’s Rhetorical Theory” (2010):
‘Because his enemies were numerous Hitler believed “it is part of the genius of a great leader to make adversaries of different fields appear as always belonging to one category.” Hitler’s primary enemy, his scapegoat, became the Jew … Hitler fuses anti-Semitism and anti-Bolshevism into “Jewish Bolshevism.” He declares, “80% of the Soviet leaders are Jews.” Writes Robert Waite, “Who stabbed Germany in the back? Who signed the armistice? Who had accepted the ‘Treaty of Shame’? Who caused the inflation and the Great Depression? The answer was clear and compelling; ‘always and only the Jew.'” Explains Klaus Fisher, “Anti-Semitism, in fact, was the oxygen of Hitler’s political life. Anti-Semitism was the hate that fueled the Nazi Movement.” … Hitler scapegoated the Jews strategically. In 1926 he told an associate, “anti-Semitism is a useful revolutionary expedient … You will see how little time we need to upset the ideas of the whole world simply by attacking Judaism. Anti-Semitism is beyond question the most important weapon in my propaganda arsenal and I use it with almost deadly efficiency.”‘
The way Maazi conflates gays with the West reminds me of Hitler’s “Jewish Bolshevism.”
Hahahaha…Why stop there. I can even be your favourite closet Republican Party hypocrite in Oklahoma !!! 😀
Please go and research what “Maazi” means in the Ugandan context.
This is just smear tactics for which gay propagandists are well known. Gayism is deviant sexual behaviour and has absolute nothing to do with the dignified Jewish people. I have said this several times in the past, no amount of slurring and smearing with silly allegations of Nazism will prevent Ugandan parliament from enacting law banishing sexual deviance from the public arena.
Anybody who disagrees with your depraved lifestyle will no doubt be labelled a “troll”.
If I am an obssessive personality, then you are a super-obssessed chap who thinks you can control everything from your living room in London. You have no control over our own neck of the woods !
And here are those joyous ‘death grunts’ again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXrllstKOs
@ stephen
I see your point. We’re fortunate here in Britain that all the major political parties seem generally to be agreed that ‘making politics’ out of issues of ‘fundamental rights’ (e.g. protection from violence and unjust discrimination on account of one’s sexual identity) is not a good idea. (As is often the case in this country, it is hard to pinpoint exactly when this state of affairs began, but I’d say December 1999, when – after long discussion – the age of consent was equalized and proper differentiation was made between consensual sex and sexual abuse.)
Richard, as in the Sates, sexuality is politics. The more vehement and obsessive the fag-bashing the more likely that it comes from a gay man.
Richard: he’s a closeted gay man.
Not entirely accurate. Keep guessing. !!!
Maazi, I am not trying to smear you. I am suggesting that you are decrying gays with the same singleminded of rhetoric as Hitler decrying the Jews. Like Hitler you wish to pass a law that will allow you to kill a whole class of people whom you deem to be enemies of Uganda.
“Uganda is known around the world for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.”
So is Christianity.
(BTW, David M., If one swaps over the first two letters of ‘maazi’, one gets a Luganda word meaning something quite different! But modesty forbids that I elaborate …)
Report from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17058692
I suspect you’re a self-hating homosexual, Maazi.
That said, I don’t wish ill upon you—the way you do to all your fellow Ugandan LGBTs.
I hope you can let some Love into your angry/sad little life sometime, Maazi, for your own Good. Peace to you.
David M.
The UG extreme Right (allegedly) has ties with US extreme Right, as we know …
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bahati etc
@ David M.
Actually, the Bill may have become a weapon that the UG Parliament in its power struggle with the UG Government. In a strange way, it is actually designed to DESTABILIZE the political situation.
But ‘Maazi’ (an opposition politician, I reckon) could be making a cardinal political error. Those perhaps with most to gain from destabilization are the extreme ‘right-wing’ elements in the NRM (as personified by Bahati), and they, if they seize power, might decide that the likes of ‘Maazi’ are ‘surplus to their requirements’ …
It really is in ‘Maazi’s’ best interest that this whole business is ‘dustbinned’ before the overall political situation spirals out of control. This article gives some interesting background: http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/OpEdColumnists/AllanTacca/-/878694/1233844/-/9horloz/-/
Well, ‘Maazi’, I do agree with you that some of Onyango-Obbo’s comments are a bit ‘odd’.
As for the Bill: I’m afraid, ‘Maazi’, it says what it says – and is thus clearly not just about so-called ‘sodomy’. If you know of changes, then tell us about them (and then we could discuss them), but stop pretending the Bill is something that it isn’t (or something dramatically ‘less’ than it is, so to speak).
It was the ORIGINAL Bill that sparked all that joyful grunting, hugging and backslapping the other day – remember?!
I think David M makes a very good point about the difference between Uganda and Saudi Arabia and AE. What “direction” are the countries moving? They are not making “New” laws to punish sexual minorities with death.
And for that matter I don’t recall in recent memory them really enforcing the laws they have on the books. I don’t see blood lusting cheers of joy going up in Riyadh at the thought of eradicating sexual minorities.
Maazi, you confirm my belief that this bill is about rallying support for you and those like you in your own country by making politics about Ugandan pride. You decry the West and its supposed surrogates, the gays, but the real issue is winning a political game you are playing. The game is about keeping yourselves in powerful positions in Uganda. When I see politicians play such games, I wonder what they’re hiding. Could it be corruption? Are they trying to build a base of support so that when the hammer falls on their corruption, they can cry, “It’s the gays! It’s the West! It’s all a conspiracy!” I am not accusing you of anything, just suspicious.
As for Saudi Arabi, Dubai and the like, I did not say they were moving toward Western values but that they are perceived as doing so. The reality is a mixed bag. President Obama and other Western leaders may not suggest lifting the penalties for gays now, but there may come a day when Western leaders do suggest this. Right now, we are very motivated to be their friends, as you say, because of oil. Are these laws even enforced more secularized Arab countries? I don’t know.
Bet the ad firm won’t be including those in the promo package!
I don’t care how repulsed you self-righteous hypocrites are about the bill. Uganda is s a sovereign state and its parlaiment will examine the bill, make necessary amendments and then pass it into law. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab sheikdoms are not moving anywhere towards Western values. Western governments don’t care a damn what these Sheikdoms do with gay sex practitioners provided the autocratic rulers over there keep cheap crude oil flowing and provide the West with an avenue to influence political events in the Middle-East. If Saudi Arabian King were to proclaim by royal decree stiffer punishment for sodomy (which is rather pointless given the extreme harshness of the existing anti-gay laws). There will be ZERO protest from western governments. No doubt, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the Euro-American propagandist lobby will issue some verbal protest. But there will be BOOMING SILENCE from Western governments !!!
This is just gay propaganda. Saudi Arabia and other gulf arab sheikdoms have extremely harsh laws on sodomy and most carry death penalty. What new law do you want?? You want Saudi King to proclaim by decree that sodomites will no longer die by swift beheading, but by slow strangulation??? What new law will be harsher than the already existing law in Saudi Arabia?? Will Obama dare suggest to King Abdallah that the anti-sodomy laws need revision. I am not even talking about threats and cajoling. I am only asking if Obama or Cameron or Harper can even make a “friendly suggestion” that the Saudi or Emirati laws on sodomy should be reviewed??
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The article by Charles Onyango-Obbo is the most ridiculous punditry I have come across in my life. Even the shallow punditry offered by foreigners sound more plausible than the trash written by that man. The Museveni government is strongly opposed to the Bahati Bill because its Western donor patrons are dead set against the bill. Government officials bar Father Lokodo Simon (and James Nsaba Buturo before him) have been falling over themselves to pander to western interests on this particular issue.
If the executive branch of the Ugandan State could have its way, the Bahati Bill will be long dead. The survival of the bill is a function of strong resistance from Ugandan Parliamentarians who are largely immune to Western blackmail and pressure tactics.
So know we know … those who seek to defend the human rights of LGBT will be accused of ‘gay propaganda’ and locked up.
This is big, and will surely elicit a big response. Thank you, ‘Maazi’, for the insight.
How many time have I told you that I have no interest in getting anybody killed. The bill is being reviewed in response to local concerns. Back in October 2009, there were people who supported this bill, but thought that some of its provisions were extremely harsh and counter-productive. It is hoped that their views will be accommodated in this latest revision of the bill
They are clearly not normal in any sense and don’t get me started with bogus pseudo-scientific claims about gayism being in-born or being genetic. Somebody who thinks of having sex with member of the same sex or a tree or a dog or a dead body is not a criminal until he or she acts on such deviant thoughts. The proposed law will deal with people inciting and sensitizing our impressionable youths to partake in such abhorrent sexual behaviours.
Nobody is getting killed. That is just a piece of gay propaganda to rally foreign support against the bill.
This is interesting perspective from a person who doesn’t even believe in God. I guess gay propagandists are willing to use anything as fodder for their work including bending religion to be gay-friendly. BTW, I have listened to your suggestion that gayism is neither criminal or sick. My response is that you are entitled to your opinions. Gayism is a compulsive sexual disorder. No amount of politicized pseudo-science— dating all the way back from 1973— can change that reality. There is no gay gene. We are not buying that nonsense. Sorry !!!
Yes that is correct. The bill shall retain such punishment for gay propaganda aimed at youngsters.
If Lokodo is “Buturo II” then what is Madame Miria Matembe who was the predecessor of James Nsaba Buturo ?? She also broke up meetings of gay sex militants just like Buturo and Lokodo. Shall we call her “Buturo I” and if we agree on that then what shall we call James himself? “Buturo 00 ” ?
Because they are not really “human rights defenders”. They are just paid-up agents in Uganda to spread the gospel of gayism. Gayism is not a human right. It is a “human wrong”—or better still, an “inhuman vice”—- that can NEVER be granted public space to flourish down here. Those who are unhappy with the Ugandan people’s opinion on this issue should quietly relocate themselves to San Francisco or Johannesburg or London or Paris or Amsterdam.
So know we know … those who seek to defend the human rights of LGBT will be accused of ‘gay propaganda’ and locked up.
This is big, and will surely elicit a big response. Thank you, ‘Maazi’, for the insight.
How many time have I told you that I have no interest in getting anybody killed. The bill is being reviewed in response to local concerns. Back in October 2009, there were people who supported this bill, but thought that some of its provisions were extremely harsh and counter-productive. It is hoped that their views will be accommodated in this latest revision of the bill
They are clearly not normal in any sense and don’t get me started with bogus pseudo-scientific claims about gayism being in-born or being genetic. Somebody who thinks of having sex with member of the same sex or a tree or a dog or a dead body is not a criminal until he or she acts on such deviant thoughts. The proposed law will deal with people inciting and sensitizing our impressionable youths to partake in such abhorrent sexual behaviours.
Nobody is getting killed. That is just a piece of gay propaganda to rally foreign support against the bill.
This is interesting perspective from a person who doesn’t even believe in God. I guess gay propagandists are willing to use anything as fodder for their work including bending religion to be gay-friendly. BTW, I have listened to your suggestion that gayism is neither criminal or sick. My response is that you are entitled to your opinions. Gayism is a compulsive sexual disorder. No amount of politicized pseudo-science— dating all the way back from 1973— can change that reality. There is no gay gene. We are not buying that nonsense. Sorry !!!
On the (vexed) issue of aid: in my view, the only good reason for providing ‘general budget support’ is to encourage good governance and respect for human rights. Given the way in which things seem to be moving, there could soon be no point in providing GBS.
I don’t advocate aid ‘cuts’, merely appropriate redeployment of resources.
Yes that is correct. The bill shall retain such punishment for gay propaganda aimed at youngsters.
If Lokodo is “Buturo II” then what is Madame Miria Matembe who was the predecessor of James Nsaba Buturo ?? She also broke up meetings of gay sex militants just like Buturo and Lokodo. Shall we call her “Buturo I” and if we agree on that then what shall we call James himself? “Buturo 00 ” ?
Because they are not really “human rights defenders”. They are just paid-up agents in Uganda to spread the gospel of gayism. Gayism is not a human right. It is a “human wrong”—or better still, an “inhuman vice”—- that can NEVER be granted public space to flourish down here. Those who are unhappy with the Ugandan people’s opinion on this issue should quietly relocate themselves to San Francisco or Johannesburg or London or Paris or Amsterdam.
M7 says … (what?): http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gw_q009WQGzAQimjE26_gAl7w-hQ?docId=CNG.47f2a70edd199bd5e9cf2b9b75b34b83.8a1
M7 in the article: “He added that a life term could be handed out to anyone funding schemes which attempted to bribe children into becoming homosexual.”
Well, of course there should be stiff penalties for those (gay or straight) who abuse / exploit children. But the human rights defenders are not doing that (they have made it abundantly clear that they detest child abuse), so why all the venom directed at them?
Also in the article: “Bahati said he wanted to scrap proposals to punish “aggravated homosexuality,” which includes someone deemed to be a “serial offender” with the death sentence. … Bahati said the proposed legislation was already in the process of being changed, following recommendations made during the last parliament.”
Ah yes, those ‘recommendations’ … (change the words, keep the slaughter, I seem to recall)
And let’s remember that Bahati said something about dropping the death penalty just before Tasho’s report said ‘keep it’ (but with different wording).
On the (vexed) issue of aid: in my view, the only good reason for providing ‘general budget support’ is to encourage good governance and respect for human rights. Given the way in which things seem to be moving, there could soon be no point in providing GBS.
I don’t advocate aid ‘cuts’, merely appropriate redeployment of resources.
M7 says … (what?): http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gw_q009WQGzAQimjE26_gAl7w-hQ?docId=CNG.47f2a70edd199bd5e9cf2b9b75b34b83.8a1
M7 in the article: “He added that a life term could be handed out to anyone funding schemes which attempted to bribe children into becoming homosexual.”
Well, of course there should be stiff penalties for those (gay or straight) who abuse / exploit children. But the human rights defenders are not doing that (they have made it abundantly clear that they detest child abuse), so why all the venom directed at them?
Also in the article: “Bahati said he wanted to scrap proposals to punish “aggravated homosexuality,” which includes someone deemed to be a “serial offender” with the death sentence. … Bahati said the proposed legislation was already in the process of being changed, following recommendations made during the last parliament.”
Ah yes, those ‘recommendations’ … (change the words, keep the slaughter, I seem to recall)
And let’s remember that Bahati said something about dropping the death penalty just before Tasho’s report said ‘keep it’ (but with different wording).
“Uganda is known around the world for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.”
So is Christianity.
Looks like Lokodo may be Buturo II: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/africa/news/article_1692113.php/Uganda-minister-says-gays-should-suffer-illness-at-home
Mixed messages from the UG Government? (I see that the ‘recruitment’ propaganda line has made a come-back. I wonder who is the ‘pastor’?)
(Of course, in the murky world of UG politics, this latest display of ‘toughness’ may have another purpose … but I won’t spell it out – at least not here on this blog.)
Looks like Lokodo may be Buturo II: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/africa/news/article_1692113.php/Uganda-minister-says-gays-should-suffer-illness-at-home
Mixed messages from the UG Government? (I see that the ‘recruitment’ propaganda line has made a come-back. I wonder who is the ‘pastor’?)
(Of course, in the murky world of UG politics, this latest display of ‘toughness’ may have another purpose … but I won’t spell it out – at least not here on this blog.)
Looks like Lokodo may be Buturo II: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/africa/news/article_1692113.php/Uganda-minister-says-gays-should-suffer-illness-at-home
Mixed messages from the UG Government? (I see that the ‘recruitment’ propaganda line has made a come-back. I wonder who is the ‘pastor’?)
(Of course, in the murky world of UG politics, this latest display of ‘toughness’ may have another purpose … but I won’t spell it out – at least not here on this blog.)
Looks like Lokodo may be Buturo II: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/africa/news/article_1692113.php/Uganda-minister-says-gays-should-suffer-illness-at-home
Mixed messages from the UG Government? (I see that the ‘recruitment’ propaganda line has made a come-back. I wonder who is the ‘pastor’?)
(Of course, in the murky world of UG politics, this latest display of ‘toughness’ may have another purpose … but I won’t spell it out – at least not here on this blog.)
(BTW, David M., If one swaps over the first two letters of ‘maazi’, one gets a Luganda word meaning something quite different! But modesty forbids that I elaborate …)
On the matter of genuine ‘sex crime’ and consensual gay relationships: there is an ocean of difference between two men or two women (remember that Bahati wants to slaughter lesbians as well) living together, and sexual abuse of girls and women by violent, exploitative men. A baby in a pram would understand the difference.
So either ‘Maazi’ thinks that ‘helping people’ involves throwing them into prison with common criminals (or even executing them) or he fundamentally disagrees with Bahati. So which is it, I wonder?
@Maazi: “As far as I am concerned, gay sex practitioners are disturbed individuals that need our help.”
But the law you are backing says they are criminals that should be killed. Which is it, Maazi? Are they sick or are they criminals? Should you help them or kill them? Clearly, Maazi, you do not understand what it is that would make a person want to engage in same-sex behavior. May I suggest to you that it is neither criminality nor sickness, but an innate desire springing from the way God knit some of us together in our mother’s womb. Would you also fight God on this?
@Maazi: “Balderdash !! gay propaganda !!! … Gay sex practitioners are not an ethnic identity.”
I seem to have struck a nerve. Maazi, you are right they are not an ethnic identity. They are a sexual minority. Some of them are probably members of your family. But one thing is very clear, they did not choose to be attracted to the same sex. And yet, you would punish them for it.
I’ve done some checking on your name in a Ugandan context as you suggested. Apparently in Bantu, maazi means water (I’m not sure of this). In Swahili, maazi means Mars, the god of war.
Balderdash !! gay propaganda !!! Nobody wants to get anybody killed. But gayism will never be allowed public space and will be contained by law like other sex crimes. I also do not recognize gay sex practitioners as a distinct class of people. Most Africans don’t as well. We reject the pseudo-ethnic identity conferred by the West on sex deviants. As far as I am concerned, gay sex practitioners are disturbed individuals that need our help—- just like necrophiliacs, drug addicts and prostitutes need help to set them on the straight and narrow.Gay sex practitioners are not an ethnic identity.
Thanks for your suggestion. More work is needed to help exploited girls and there are local NGOs working on that. We ought to tackle that matter alongside the problem posed by militant gay sex advocacy. The suggestion that we should tackle one problem (i.e. girl exploitation) and allow the other problem (i.e. militant gayism) to fester is stupid and unacceptable
Just to take up the ‘Nazi propaganda’ theme: in the early days of their dictatorship, the Nazis used a ‘soft target’ to win cheap popularity (the Jews were targets of suspicion and jealousy, and the Hitlerites capitalized on this). In a sense, gays are a ‘soft target’ in Uganda, and the Bahitlerites are doing much the same thing.
Meanwhile, in Uganda, the sexual abuse and exploitation of girls and women by men carries on apace (I’ve mentioned the 40,000+ schoolgirls scandal a couple of times now). ‘Maazi’ and Co. should focus on dealing with this rather than make a great big fuss about consensual same-sex relationships and harmless so-called ‘gender non-conformity’. They might also consider investigating the sexual abuse by the police of gay detainees (see BBC report above).
@ stephen
I see your point. We’re fortunate here in Britain that all the major political parties seem generally to be agreed that ‘making politics’ out of issues of ‘fundamental rights’ (e.g. protection from violence and unjust discrimination on account of one’s sexual identity) is not a good idea. (As is often the case in this country, it is hard to pinpoint exactly when this state of affairs began, but I’d say December 1999, when – after long discussion – the age of consent was equalized and proper differentiation was made between consensual sex and sexual abuse.)
David M.
I can’t quite work out ‘Maazi’, and what he really wants. He might be some kind of ‘political exhibitionist’. Maybe I’m wrong about the lawyer bit.
Maazi, I am not trying to smear you. I am suggesting that you are decrying gays with the same singleminded of rhetoric as Hitler decrying the Jews. Like Hitler you wish to pass a law that will allow you to kill a whole class of people whom you deem to be enemies of Uganda.
This is just smear tactics for which gay propagandists are well known. Gayism is deviant sexual behaviour and has absolute nothing to do with the dignified Jewish people. I have said this several times in the past, no amount of slurring and smearing with silly allegations of Nazism will prevent Ugandan parliament from enacting law banishing sexual deviance from the public arena.
BTW, my response to your previous comments is caught in moderation queue. So it is up to Doc Warren to release it for your perusal
The following is from an article by Bruce Loebs on “Hitler’s Rhetorical Theory” (2010):
‘Because his enemies were numerous Hitler believed “it is part of the genius of a great leader to make adversaries of different fields appear as always belonging to one category.” Hitler’s primary enemy, his scapegoat, became the Jew … Hitler fuses anti-Semitism and anti-Bolshevism into “Jewish Bolshevism.” He declares, “80% of the Soviet leaders are Jews.” Writes Robert Waite, “Who stabbed Germany in the back? Who signed the armistice? Who had accepted the ‘Treaty of Shame’? Who caused the inflation and the Great Depression? The answer was clear and compelling; ‘always and only the Jew.’” Explains Klaus Fisher, “Anti-Semitism, in fact, was the oxygen of Hitler’s political life. Anti-Semitism was the hate that fueled the Nazi Movement.” … Hitler scapegoated the Jews strategically. In 1926 he told an associate, “anti-Semitism is a useful revolutionary expedient … You will see how little time we need to upset the ideas of the whole world simply by attacking Judaism. Anti-Semitism is beyond question the most important weapon in my propaganda arsenal and I use it with almost deadly efficiency.”’
The way Maazi conflates gays with the West reminds me of Hitler’s “Jewish Bolshevism.”
Not entirely accurate. Keep guessing. !!!
Hahahaha…Why stop there. I can even be your favourite closet Republican Party hypocrite in Oklahoma !!! 😀
Please go and research what “Maazi” means in the Ugandan context.
This is just smear tactics for which gay propagandists are well known. Gayism is deviant sexual behaviour and has absolute nothing to do with the dignified Jewish people. I have said this several times in the past, no amount of slurring and smearing with silly allegations of Nazism will prevent Ugandan parliament from enacting law banishing sexual deviance from the public arena.
Anybody who disagrees with your depraved lifestyle will no doubt be labelled a “troll”.
If I am an obssessive personality, then you are a super-obssessed chap who thinks you can control everything from your living room in London. You have no control over our own neck of the woods !
David, I share your hesitation but the fact remains that the Maaaazzziii person’s rhetoric is exactly the same as the anti-Semitic language used in France before WWI and in Austria and Germany in the build up to WW II. There is no difference. Don’t take my word for it. Look for yourself and see if you agree.
Let me just say that the anti gay language used here by the Maazziii troll is also very like the anti black language that has been historically used here in the States. I’m happy to say that such racist language is no longer tolerable. Who among us thinks that black people are genetically inferior? That they can’t be trusted not to steal or lie if given the chance? That their willful blackism condemns them to a second rate life begging for scraps from their masters? No one, I would hope. We don’t talk about coons and jigaboos any more. For good reason. Such language is destructive: it limits the aspirations of our neighbors’ lives. The blackest African is very close to the blondest Scandinavian, genetically speaking. Same is true on the sexual spectrum. 50 years ago our evangelical friends condemned race as they now condemn sexuality. 50 years from from now what will be left to condemn?
I do think there are some parallels between Maazi’s rhetoric and Nazi rhetoric. I have refrained from saying so because of the “Argumentum ad Nazium,” that an opponent in an argument will sometimes resort to comparing the other to Hitler or the Nazis. Still, having acknowledged that temptation, the irrational villification of one group was part of Hitler’s conscious rhetorical strategy. He wrote about it. He intentionally blamed the Jews for everything, though in fact he had many enemies.
Richard, are you saying that Maazi intentionally gives us information about what’s going on in UG politics? And are you suggesting you know who Maazi is? If my questions are impertinent, ignore them.
Richard, as in the Sates, sexuality is politics. The more vehement and obsessive the fag-bashing the more likely that it comes from a gay man.
Could well be, stephen. He’s certainly an obsessive personality. (In one sense, I don’t really care about his sexuality – that’s his business; it is the political angle that interests me most.)
Richard: he’s a closeted gay man.
@ David M.
Former non-commissioned officer, perhaps?
Maaazziiii’s language is an exact parallel of the Nazi party’s language regarding the Jews. I’m not calling him Hitler. I’m just pointing out that he represents the danger point: where the language of ignorant hate tips into genocide. Does anyone here think that if Maaaaaaaaaazzziii were given a gun and unlimited power that he wouldn’t shoot gay people? All that holds him – and the rest of his vile claque – back is the threat of international sanctions. All that can give hope to Ugandan gays is the threat of US sanctions.
I would suggest that no one here ever engages fag-bashing Maaaaaaazzzzziiiii again. He’s a troll. If you think yo can reach him you’re delusional and vain.
Andy: the reason that there are so many gay kids on the street is that their parents kicked them out. We know we’re gay. The abuse comes from our family. I speak from experience.
Maybe. He’s certainly playing a strange game, maybe a rather dangerous one. He’s an opposition / independent MP, a lawyer (hence his annoyance with Bahati for his poor drafting), a lapsed Catholic and he doesn’t like the UG Government (for a variety of reasons), though he might have worked for it in some capacity the not-too-distant past. But I have promised not to name names on this blog, and intend to keep that promise.
He repeats himself, and is addicted to cliches, but contained amongst all the verbiage are, from time to time, some interesting ‘nuggets’ of information. That is, I suspect, why we still see his posts. (It was he who confirmed the widely-held suspicion that Speaker, now Vice President, Ssekandi put the kibosh on the Bill last May.)
@Maazi NCO: “Do you honestly think that I care a damn whether you believe me or not?”
If you do not care what we believe, then why do you keep coming back here, Maazi?
Since “Maazi” is a pseudonym, I am trying to figure out why you chose it. It is an Urdu word meaning past or history. Could it be that you are a former MP? I find it doubtful that a current UG MP would take time at the hours you do to post on this blog. It’s difficult to know if you are who you say you are or a pretender.
You know what? This Maazi person is just a troll. And as they say: Don’t feed the trolls. He’s an ignorant puerile bureaucrat stuck somewhere on the lower echelons of one of Africa’s most corrupt governments. He comes here to make himself feel like he has some significance. A while back I attempted to dignify his crap by characterizing him as a gay boy somewhere in DC. But he’s not worth the effort.
His obsession certainly carries with it the clear indicator of a homosexual man projecting his self-hatred onto those he most desires: gay men. I was closeted once and I pity him because I’ve been there: though I never felt the need to persecute those men I held closest to my heart. I would have been ashamed. OK. Maaaaaaazzzzziiii is beyond shame. But, you know, I have a life. I have work to do. I don’t really care who Maaaaaazzzzziiii is or what he does or what he believes. As anyone can see, he’s a nitwit. A jackanapes. A fool. The perfect exemplar of those small-minded autodidacts marooned in the wake of empire’s retreat. Whatever Uganda’s future might be it clearly won’t be maaaaaaaazzzzziiiiii. He’s the past. So let’s allow him to slink off into the dingy history of the Bahati era.
Lonely Planet named Uganda top tourist destination of 2012. Though there has been a lot of blowback clearly this points the way to the future. Not a hopelessly corrupt political class but the way that more progressive Ugandans can harness the buying power of the west to make the Pearl of Africa the eco-destination of choice. That’s real hope.
(Incidentally, ‘Maazi’ seem to be suggesting the Bahati is incompetent when it comes to crafting legislation. Thus I assume that his answer to my question is an unqualified ‘No’.)
Hello ‘Maazi’!
My question again:-
Do you regard the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’? (Yes / No)
I was just about to dismiss this silly comment off-hand when I just remembered something that needed saying.
Now wait for it !!….Here it comes !!! ——
I am nothing like your double-dealing and double-speaking Republican Party hypocrites who say one thing in public and do something entirely opposite in private. As far as most Ugandans (including myself) are concerned, gayism is not in our character and we will NEVER allow it to flourish here. You can accuse me of being anything you fancy, but such a silly comment will not change the fact that on the D-day in parliament, I will gladly vote in favour of the bill once it has been extensively revised to meet my concerns. I may even suggest that we nickname the Bahati Bill, the JCF/Kincaid/Willmer/David/Stephen Solidarity Bill in honour of JCF, Timothy Kincaid, Richard Willmer, David.M and Stephen
I have no illusions that it passing the bill will be the end of the matter. We expect the Euro-American Gay Lobby to fight back with their compromised Western governments trying to force the Museveni government to sabotage its smooth passage and gazetting. We expect the Euro-American Gay Lobby to order their local gay advocate-puppets in Uganda to challenge the law in court. That is probably why it is important that the Bahati Bill is properly crafted so that no judge in Uganda will strike it down. Luckily, Uganda does not have activist judges that legislate from the bench !!! If the provisions in the bill are properly worded there will be no problems !!!
@ Andy
That’s a very interesting point you raise. Notice that, in the BBC article about ‘Paul’, the (‘straight’) Ugandan police allegedly sexually abused (gay) ‘Paul’. And it is generally accepted that, in a very significant proportion of cases of ‘male rape’, the perpetrator presents as ‘straight’ and has consensual sex with women.
(Shortly after the Bahati Bill was first tabled, I heard an amusing anecdote. In it, a Ugandan MP was alleged to have said that wouldn’t want to sit next to Bahati in case he got ‘jumped’! While this was almost certainly just a ‘wise crack’, maybe from one of the more humorous Ugandan MPs, there is a sense in which the violence of the homophobe has much in common with the violence of the abuser/rapist: the complete lack of human feeling towards potential or actual victims, the shouting and screaming, the graphic and/or filthy language, etc.)
Ultimately, sexual abuse is, of course, born of violence and exploitation, and has nothing to do with genuine ‘sexuality’.
@ JCF
You might be correct (for someone who claims not to care what ‘donor countries’ think, ‘Maazi’ does spend an awful lot of time putting his case on this blog), but I doubt it.
‘Maazi’s’ prime motivation is, IMHO, political: what he really wants is to ‘make a point’ to ‘the West’ (which, of course, he likes to visit … which is perhaps one reason for his hiding behind a pseudonym) by bashing his own compatriots. (Some people have no logic! 🙁 ) He can hardly complain if ‘the West’ decides to ‘make a point’ in response.
One (more) error in his thinking is that passing the Bahati Bloodbath Bill (if it ever is passed) would be the end of the matter. In truth, it would just be the beginning …
I saw this headline:
“Kids With Gender Noncomformity at Increased Risk for Abuse” on WebMD and other places today like USAToday.
Could this be one reason there seems to be a link between childhood abuse and sexual orientation?
For a long time people have been saying childhood abuse causes homosexuality. I was wondering if the opposite could be true i.e. homosexuality “causes” or precipitates abuse (since gender non-conforming children are more likely to be isolated and vulnerable to attack by unscrupulous people).
I suspect you’re a self-hating homosexual, Maazi.
That said, I don’t wish ill upon you—the way you do to all your fellow Ugandan LGBTs.
I hope you can let some Love into your angry/sad little life sometime, Maazi, for your own Good. Peace to you.
(Just on the subject of ‘respect’: it is very difficult to respect the likes of ‘Maazi NCO MP’, given that he has – intentionally or otherwise – told several lies on this blog. Oh, and we might be able to respect him a little if he ‘came out’ and told us who is really is.)
When the Bill first broke cover, there was widespread support among the UG body-politic, and principally for two reasons:
1. the true nature and scope of the Bill was not understood, and
2. the international reaction was not anticipated.
Back in December 2009, even ‘Maazi NCO MP’ said that (and I quote him) ‘gays who keep their heads down and do their stuff privately will be left alone’. Oddly, he now knows this is not true, but still supports the Bill – which may indicate that he was laying back then, of course … just as he now accuses Otafiire of lying. (Incidentally, ‘Maazi’ likes to make out that apparent opponents of the Bill are lying to us. Has he not considered the possibility that apparent supporters of the Bills might be lying to – and joyously grunting in order to deceive – him? I think he should.)
Anyway, ‘Maazi NCO MP’ has still not answered my question … so I’ll try again.
‘Maazi’, do you regard the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’? (Yes / No)
The difference is that Dubai and Saudi Arabia don’t live off foreign aid.
(Just on the subject of ‘respect’: it is very difficult to respect the likes of ‘Maazi NCO MP’, given that he has – intentionally or otherwise – told several lies on this blog. Oh, and we might be able to respect him a little if he ‘came out’ and told us who is really is.)
Hedonism is the belief that pleasure is the ultimate goal in life. It does not necessarily imply sexual license, as you suppose. This belief has appeared in a number of cultures, not only ancient Greece, but also in Hinduism. And there are probably others.
Be that as it may, homosexuality is not about the pursuit of pleasure. It is about an innate desire for persons of the same sex. One can be completely celibate and also be homosexual. As I understand it, you would kill even chaste persons who are vocal about their homosexuality. You would certainly kill those who are faithful to one partner, if that partner is of the same sex. You are not fighting hedonism, so please drop that pretense.
@Maazi: “Restrict your postive attitude to sexual anarchy and hedonism within your own borders and respect our sovereign right to enact laws for the good of our communal society !!”
I will not respect your borders when your intention is to murder fellow human beings. The value of a life outweighs the value of national borders.
His real opinion on the matter was expressed in support of the bill when it first emerged in 2009. Then Western donors leaned on him and other cabinet ministers and they started singing a different tune. Unfortunately for the western donors, MPs are largely immune to blackmail.
Neither do we in Uganda. Restrict your postive attitude to sexual anarchy and hedonism within your own borders and respect our sovereign right to enact laws for the good of our communal society !!
And a report on UG Minister of Justice Otafiire’s views: http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/news/intrnational/2012/02/17/3028.html
Report from the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17058692
How can people like Maazi, of whatever nationality, be helped to understand that homosexuality is neither a Western issue nor an African issue? It is a human issue. It is a minority trait but a natural and almost certainly an inborn trait to desire others of the same sex. People once killed those who were left-handed. Killing gays makes just as much sense. Is there any reasoning with homo-hating people?
Sorry about that little diversion.
Anyway, here’s my question to ‘Maazi NCO MP’, in case he comes backs and wants to answer it ‘yes’ or ‘no’:-
‘Maazi’, do you consider the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’?
(BTW, the friend of mine was propositioned by a Saudi policeman … in Saudi. My friend feigned mild shock and politely declined the offer!)
The difference is that Dubai and Saudi Arabia don’t live off foreign aid.
David M.
‘Maazi’ often takes refuge in ‘missing the point’. He is, after all, a politician!
No answer. I’ll come back to that question later.
Meanwhile, I notice that ‘Maazi’ has gone back to his old ‘sodomy’ thing in his comment to David M. above. But the Bahati Bill is not about so-called ‘sodomy’ (that is already illegal in Uganda) …
Maazi, your comments about the Arab countries in question miss my point. In these countries religious authorities are not at the same time political authorities. I acknowledged that these countries do not share western views of sex.
Can we drop this now and get back to the subject?
You’ve not answered my second question (the answer to the first was much as I expected it to be, by the way). I’ll rephrase it, so that you can give a simple yes / no response.
Do you consider the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’?
(And since you are smiling about the Bill, let’s hear those joyous ‘death-grunts’ again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXrllstKOs)
You will know when the revised bill is publicly unveiled. Until then, keep guessing 🙂
.
It is absolute correct that Dubai is a mecca of sorts. However, Dubai authorities never waste time in arresting people for engaging in immoral behaviour in public or in private. I am aware that foreigners have been arrested in Dubai in recent years for engaging in sodomy. So my advice Mr. David is do not be fooled by the huge skyscrapers and the man-made Islands and the huge shopping malls. Any attempt to exhibit gay behaviour in public or private will land you instantly in jail if a Dubai policeman catches you in the act !!
And the answers to my questions are … ?
Ha, ha, ha….The statement above shows that you nothing about the sheikdoms of the Arabian Gulf. Have you ever looked at the stature books of Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait?? In these Sheikdoms, religion and state are completely mixed up. The mix-up between the state and religion is so great that any attempt to make a separation will have to start with a complete dismantling of all laws, rules and regulations in those nations. Please go and educate yourself on this matter.
My question was (two-fold): WHAT ‘extensive modifications’? And did last time round* count as ‘extensive modifications’?
You answered a different question. But then you are a politician!
* the almost irrelevant additions and deletions; the change in the wording of Clause 3 to make it look as if the ‘(quick) slaughter provisions’ has been removed, when in fact they hadn’t?
@Maazi: “Ugandan MPs do not play political games with the sensitive socio-cultural challenge posed by militant gayism.”
This is simply an incredible statement.
The fact is that homosexuality is not something imported. Maybe it looked different in the cultural past of Uganda than it looks in the West. Maybe Western culture has influence the way homosexuality is practiced in Uganda. But Western culture is also shaping your response to homosexuality. You are every bit as much the inheritor of imperialism’s effects.
The fact that some people in every culture are sexually attracted to members of the same sex is no more a threat to the family structure of Uganda than it was 100 or 1000 years ago. The only change is that you and your ilk are now saying these people don’t have a right to live.
The gays simply want to live and be treated as equal citizens. Is that too much to ask?
Maazi, if you succeed in killing all the gays of this generation, you will find that there will be just as many gays in the next generation. But you will have robbed them of their personhood. Is this really what Ugandans are about?
Do you honestly think that I care a damn whether you believe me or not?
There would be “extensive modifications” to satisfy local concerns about certain provisions within the bill. Of course, we will listen politely to ULS President and representatives of other legitimate professional associations take turns to belt a catchy pro-gay tune to preserve Western donor funding to their organizations. We will give them a round of applause and send them on their way. Thereafter, we shall proceed quickly to conclude the work in progress. I doubt we will care much about the opinions of Westerners. We wont be seeking the opinions of the fringe puppet gay advocacy groups in Kampala because that will be a pointless exercise. It would be pointless to speak to domestic representatives of the Euro-American Gay Propagandist Lobby .
I knew it! ‘Family values’ had to be mentioned sooner or later!
Come on, ‘Maazi NCO MP’! We all know that there are plenty of ‘dysfunctional’ families in UG, just as there are elsewhere. Maybe the nature of the ‘dysfunction’ varies a little from country to country … but probably in essence only a very little, as essential modes of human dysfunction transcend race, culture, environment …
David M.is surely correct: the motives behind this Bill are, in the main, political. There may be the odd trenchant ideologue (Bahati himself, although I’m sure even of that?), but …
@Maazi: “Restrict your postive attitude to sexual anarchy and hedonism within your own borders and respect our sovereign right to enact laws for the good of our communal society !!”
I will not respect your borders when your intention is to murder fellow human beings. The value of a life outweighs the value of national borders.
@Maazi
The central value that these Arab states share with the Western nations is the separation of religion and state.
I understand that on many social issues these countries are far from a Western view. But if you will step away from your obsession with sex for a moment, you will see that these countries are fairly materialistic. Dubai, for instance, is creating a mecca of sorts for Western materialists, in part by its beautiful and astounding architecture.
But I don’t want to keep this part of the argument going for long, because it is a distraction from the cerntral issues here.
First of all, the leftwing—rightwing dichotomy found in USA is non-existent in Uganda. There is no political entity here in Uganda that recognizes gayism as a human right. Secondly, Ugandan MPs do not play political games with the sensitive socio-cultural challenge posed by militant gayism. We are not like your double-speaking Republican party hypocrites. When we speak of family values, we actually mean it for the sake of preserving the communal structure of our society. In your country’s highly individualistic “mind-your-own-business” society, it may be cool to be a prancing gay sex practitioner, but in our family-oriented communal society, it is not cool. We enjoy extraordinary support from our people to codify our objections to this western-imported hedonism with legislation
‘Maazi’
What ‘extensive modifications’? Like last time – a few deletions, a meaningless addition, a play on words?
@Maazi: “I do not have time for political games. My interests remains that Ugandans must have the right to determine which laws it wants to promulgate and which ones it wants to repeal without some imperialist nations from thousands of miles away wanting to control the situation down here with veto power.”
Maybe you are a true believer. But if so, I think you are being used as a political pawn. In any case, politicians always say they are not playing political games. None of us believes them. Sorry, Maazi.
David M.
The UG extreme Right (allegedly) has ties with US extreme Right, as we know …
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bahati etc
Nobody wants to distabilize anything. Ugandan parliament has its work cut out and Ugandan executive government has its own work. As far as MPs are concerned, the Bahati Bill is one bill like any other. It will be debated, extensive modifications made prior to it being passed into law. This is the consensus in parliament across partylines and we wont be blackmailed by any foreign power on this matter.
I am a legislator not a cabinet minister. I do not have time for political games. My interests remains that Ugandans must have the right to determine which laws it wants to promulgate and which ones it wants to repeal without some imperialist nations from thousands of miles away wanting to control the situation down here with veto power.
Now you just playing a game of semantics. Your words imply that the West does not pressure the Gulf Arab Sheikdoms to review their sodomy laws because these conservative nations are moving towards western (hedonistic) values. But we all know that your opinion is hockum because these nations are not moving anywhere near western values and no western goverment perceives or expects them to do so. Like I said earlier, provided the autocratic ruling sheiks keep cheap crude oil flowing, they can do what ever they like with sodomites and expect Western governments to remain 100% silent on the matter.
His real opinion on the matter was expressed in support of the bill when it first emerged in 2009. Then Western donors leaned on him and other cabinet ministers and they started singing a different tune. Unfortunately for the western donors, MPs are largely immune to blackmail.
Neither do we in Uganda. Restrict your postive attitude to sexual anarchy and hedonism within your own borders and respect our sovereign right to enact laws for the good of our communal society !!
@Richard Wilmer: “Actually, the Bill may have become a weapon that the UG Parliament in its power struggle with the UG Government. In a strange way, it is actually designed to DESTABILIZE the political situation.”
This makes sense to me, Richard. I don’t presume to know the specifics of the political game, and you know better than I the situation on the ground in Uganda. Everything Maazi has written here, though, has made me suspect it is a political game.
Unfortunately, the right-wing in Uganda may have taken a lesson from the right-wing in the US Republican Party. Until recently, the fight against gay rights was a wedge issue that Republicans could pull out around election time and tilt the electorate in their favor for presidential elections. Those days are gone, or passing very quickly, as younger generations of voters in the US actually believe gays should have equal rights. It is swiftly becoming baggage that the Republicans are going to need to jetison if they are going to win national elections. But that is not so easily done. In a curious way, Republicans have engineered long-term losses in the interest of short-term games. Now the piper is beginning to demand his pay.
@ David M.
Actually, the Bill may have become a weapon that the UG Parliament in its power struggle with the UG Government. In a strange way, it is actually designed to DESTABILIZE the political situation.
But ‘Maazi’ (an opposition politician, I reckon) could be making a cardinal political error. Those perhaps with most to gain from destabilization are the extreme ‘right-wing’ elements in the NRM (as personified by Bahati), and they, if they seize power, might decide that the likes of ‘Maazi’ are ‘surplus to their requirements’ …
It really is in ‘Maazi’s’ best interest that this whole business is ‘dustbinned’ before the overall political situation spirals out of control. This article gives some interesting background: http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/OpEdColumnists/AllanTacca/-/878694/1233844/-/9horloz/-/
And a report on UG Minister of Justice Otafiire’s views: http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/news/intrnational/2012/02/17/3028.html
Maazi, you confirm my belief that this bill is about rallying support for you and those like you in your own country by making politics about Ugandan pride. You decry the West and its supposed surrogates, the gays, but the real issue is winning a political game you are playing. The game is about keeping yourselves in powerful positions in Uganda. When I see politicians play such games, I wonder what they’re hiding. Could it be corruption? Are they trying to build a base of support so that when the hammer falls on their corruption, they can cry, “It’s the gays! It’s the West! It’s all a conspiracy!” I am not accusing you of anything, just suspicious.
As for Saudi Arabi, Dubai and the like, I did not say they were moving toward Western values but that they are perceived as doing so. The reality is a mixed bag. President Obama and other Western leaders may not suggest lifting the penalties for gays now, but there may come a day when Western leaders do suggest this. Right now, we are very motivated to be their friends, as you say, because of oil. Are these laws even enforced more secularized Arab countries? I don’t know.
How can people like Maazi, of whatever nationality, be helped to understand that homosexuality is neither a Western issue nor an African issue? It is a human issue. It is a minority trait but a natural and almost certainly an inborn trait to desire others of the same sex. People once killed those who were left-handed. Killing gays makes just as much sense. Is there any reasoning with homo-hating people?
Bet the ad firm won’t be including those in the promo package!
And here are those joyous ‘death grunts’ again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXrllstKOs
Sorry about that little diversion.
Anyway, here’s my question to ‘Maazi NCO MP’, in case he comes backs and wants to answer it ‘yes’ or ‘no’:-
‘Maazi’, do you consider the changes recommended by the LPAC last May as ‘extensive modifications’?
(BTW, the friend of mine was propositioned by a Saudi policeman … in Saudi. My friend feigned mild shock and politely declined the offer!)
David M.
‘Maazi’ often takes refuge in ‘missing the point’. He is, after all, a politician!
No answer. I’ll come back to that question later.
Meanwhile, I notice that ‘Maazi’ has gone back to his old ‘sodomy’ thing in his comment to David M. above. But the Bahati Bill is not about so-called ‘sodomy’ (that is already illegal in Uganda) …
Maazi, your comments about the Arab countries in question miss my point. In these countries religious authorities are not at the same time political authorities. I acknowledged that these countries do not share western views of sex.
Can we drop this now and get back to the subject?
You will know when the revised bill is publicly unveiled. Until then, keep guessing 🙂
.
It is absolute correct that Dubai is a mecca of sorts. However, Dubai authorities never waste time in arresting people for engaging in immoral behaviour in public or in private. I am aware that foreigners have been arrested in Dubai in recent years for engaging in sodomy. So my advice Mr. David is do not be fooled by the huge skyscrapers and the man-made Islands and the huge shopping malls. Any attempt to exhibit gay behaviour in public or private will land you instantly in jail if a Dubai policeman catches you in the act !!
And the answers to my questions are … ?
Ha, ha, ha….The statement above shows that you nothing about the sheikdoms of the Arabian Gulf. Have you ever looked at the stature books of Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait?? In these Sheikdoms, religion and state are completely mixed up. The mix-up between the state and religion is so great that any attempt to make a separation will have to start with a complete dismantling of all laws, rules and regulations in those nations. Please go and educate yourself on this matter.
My question was (two-fold): WHAT ‘extensive modifications’? And did last time round* count as ‘extensive modifications’?
You answered a different question. But then you are a politician!
* the almost irrelevant additions and deletions; the change in the wording of Clause 3 to make it look as if the ‘(quick) slaughter provisions’ has been removed, when in fact they hadn’t?
@Maazi: “Ugandan MPs do not play political games with the sensitive socio-cultural challenge posed by militant gayism.”
This is simply an incredible statement.
The fact is that homosexuality is not something imported. Maybe it looked different in the cultural past of Uganda than it looks in the West. Maybe Western culture has influence the way homosexuality is practiced in Uganda. But Western culture is also shaping your response to homosexuality. You are every bit as much the inheritor of imperialism’s effects.
The fact that some people in every culture are sexually attracted to members of the same sex is no more a threat to the family structure of Uganda than it was 100 or 1000 years ago. The only change is that you and your ilk are now saying these people don’t have a right to live.
The gays simply want to live and be treated as equal citizens. Is that too much to ask?
Maazi, if you succeed in killing all the gays of this generation, you will find that there will be just as many gays in the next generation. But you will have robbed them of their personhood. Is this really what Ugandans are about?
Do you honestly think that I care a damn whether you believe me or not?
There would be “extensive modifications” to satisfy local concerns about certain provisions within the bill. Of course, we will listen politely to ULS President and representatives of other legitimate professional associations take turns to belt a catchy pro-gay tune to preserve Western donor funding to their organizations. We will give them a round of applause and send them on their way. Thereafter, we shall proceed quickly to conclude the work in progress. I doubt we will care much about the opinions of Westerners. We wont be seeking the opinions of the fringe puppet gay advocacy groups in Kampala because that will be a pointless exercise. It would be pointless to speak to domestic representatives of the Euro-American Gay Propagandist Lobby .
I knew it! ‘Family values’ had to be mentioned sooner or later!
Come on, ‘Maazi NCO MP’! We all know that there are plenty of ‘dysfunctional’ families in UG, just as there are elsewhere. Maybe the nature of the ‘dysfunction’ varies a little from country to country … but probably in essence only a very little, as essential modes of human dysfunction transcend race, culture, environment …
David M.is surely correct: the motives behind this Bill are, in the main, political. There may be the odd trenchant ideologue (Bahati himself, although I’m sure even of that?), but …
@Maazi
The central value that these Arab states share with the Western nations is the separation of religion and state.
I understand that on many social issues these countries are far from a Western view. But if you will step away from your obsession with sex for a moment, you will see that these countries are fairly materialistic. Dubai, for instance, is creating a mecca of sorts for Western materialists, in part by its beautiful and astounding architecture.
But I don’t want to keep this part of the argument going for long, because it is a distraction from the cerntral issues here.
First of all, the leftwing—rightwing dichotomy found in USA is non-existent in Uganda. There is no political entity here in Uganda that recognizes gayism as a human right. Secondly, Ugandan MPs do not play political games with the sensitive socio-cultural challenge posed by militant gayism. We are not like your double-speaking Republican party hypocrites. When we speak of family values, we actually mean it for the sake of preserving the communal structure of our society. In your country’s highly individualistic “mind-your-own-business” society, it may be cool to be a prancing gay sex practitioner, but in our family-oriented communal society, it is not cool. We enjoy extraordinary support from our people to codify our objections to this western-imported hedonism with legislation
‘Maazi’
What ‘extensive modifications’? Like last time – a few deletions, a meaningless addition, a play on words?
@Maazi: “I do not have time for political games. My interests remains that Ugandans must have the right to determine which laws it wants to promulgate and which ones it wants to repeal without some imperialist nations from thousands of miles away wanting to control the situation down here with veto power.”
Maybe you are a true believer. But if so, I think you are being used as a political pawn. In any case, politicians always say they are not playing political games. None of us believes them. Sorry, Maazi.
Nobody wants to distabilize anything. Ugandan parliament has its work cut out and Ugandan executive government has its own work. As far as MPs are concerned, the Bahati Bill is one bill like any other. It will be debated, extensive modifications made prior to it being passed into law. This is the consensus in parliament across partylines and we wont be blackmailed by any foreign power on this matter.
I am a legislator not a cabinet minister. I do not have time for political games. My interests remains that Ugandans must have the right to determine which laws it wants to promulgate and which ones it wants to repeal without some imperialist nations from thousands of miles away wanting to control the situation down here with veto power.
Now you just playing a game of semantics. Your words imply that the West does not pressure the Gulf Arab Sheikdoms to review their sodomy laws because these conservative nations are moving towards western (hedonistic) values. But we all know that your opinion is hockum because these nations are not moving anywhere near western values and no western goverment perceives or expects them to do so. Like I said earlier, provided the autocratic ruling sheiks keep cheap crude oil flowing, they can do what ever they like with sodomites and expect Western governments to remain 100% silent on the matter.
@Richard Wilmer: “Actually, the Bill may have become a weapon that the UG Parliament in its power struggle with the UG Government. In a strange way, it is actually designed to DESTABILIZE the political situation.”
This makes sense to me, Richard. I don’t presume to know the specifics of the political game, and you know better than I the situation on the ground in Uganda. Everything Maazi has written here, though, has made me suspect it is a political game.
Unfortunately, the right-wing in Uganda may have taken a lesson from the right-wing in the US Republican Party. Until recently, the fight against gay rights was a wedge issue that Republicans could pull out around election time and tilt the electorate in their favor for presidential elections. Those days are gone, or passing very quickly, as younger generations of voters in the US actually believe gays should have equal rights. It is swiftly becoming baggage that the Republicans are going to need to jetison if they are going to win national elections. But that is not so easily done. In a curious way, Republicans have engineered long-term losses in the interest of short-term games. Now the piper is beginning to demand his pay.
Well, ‘Maazi’, I do agree with you that some of Onyango-Obbo’s comments are a bit ‘odd’.
As for the Bill: I’m afraid, ‘Maazi’, it says what it says – and is thus clearly not just about so-called ‘sodomy’. If you know of changes, then tell us about them (and then we could discuss them), but stop pretending the Bill is something that it isn’t (or something dramatically ‘less’ than it is, so to speak).
It was the ORIGINAL Bill that sparked all that joyful grunting, hugging and backslapping the other day – remember?!
The article by Charles Onyango-Obbo is the most ridiculous punditry I have come across in my life. Even the shallow punditry offered by foreigners sound more plausible than the trash written by that man. The Museveni government is strongly opposed to the Bahati Bill because its Western donor patrons are dead set against the bill. Government officials bar Father Lokodo Simon (and James Nsaba Buturo before him) have been falling over themselves to pander to western interests on this particular issue.
If the executive branch of the Ugandan State could have its way, the Bahati Bill will be long dead. The survival of the bill is a function of strong resistance from Ugandan Parliamentarians who are largely immune to Western blackmail and pressure tactics.
I don’t care how repulsed you self-righteous hypocrites are about the bill. Uganda is s a sovereign state and its parlaiment will examine the bill, make necessary amendments and then pass it into law. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab sheikdoms are not moving anywhere towards Western values. Western governments don’t care a damn what these Sheikdoms do with gay sex practitioners provided the autocratic rulers over there keep cheap crude oil flowing and provide the West with an avenue to influence political events in the Middle-East. If Saudi Arabian King were to proclaim by royal decree stiffer punishment for sodomy (which is rather pointless given the extreme harshness of the existing anti-gay laws). There will be ZERO protest from western governments. No doubt, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the Euro-American propagandist lobby will issue some verbal protest. But there will be BOOMING SILENCE from Western governments !!!
This is just gay propaganda. Saudi Arabia and other gulf arab sheikdoms have extremely harsh laws on sodomy and most carry death penalty. What new law do you want?? You want Saudi King to proclaim by decree that sodomites will no longer die by swift beheading, but by slow strangulation??? What new law will be harsher than the already existing law in Saudi Arabia?? Will Obama dare suggest to King Abdallah that the anti-sodomy laws need revision. I am not even talking about threats and cajoling. I am only asking if Obama or Cameron or Harper can even make a “friendly suggestion” that the Saudi or Emirati laws on sodomy should be reviewed??
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I think David M makes a very good point about the difference between Uganda and Saudi Arabia and AE. What “direction” are the countries moving? They are not making “New” laws to punish sexual minorities with death.
And for that matter I don’t recall in recent memory them really enforcing the laws they have on the books. I don’t see blood lusting cheers of joy going up in Riyadh at the thought of eradicating sexual minorities.
I am curious how Uganda defines sodomy. According to Webster, it can mean any sex that is not penile-vaginal. When the term was originally invented in the Middle Ages, it included masturbation as well as same-sex behavior. For Uganda, does it include oral sex, or only anal sex? Does it include heterosexual anal or oral sex as well as homosexual sex? Does it include bestiality? All these are possible meanings.
Indeed, David M.,
It could also be pointed out (once again) that the Bahati Bill is not merely about so-called ‘sodomy’ … it is designed to criminalize anything that could be seen as ‘sexual’ and is also deliberately highly intrusive (a kind of ‘seek out and destroy’ programme that means that even those who are discreet about their consensual relations are being ‘slated for slaughter’).
@Carol A Ranney: “Please don’t identify all of Christianity with its lowest common denominator.”
I totally agree with your intent, and I don’t mean to nitpick. But lest you be misunderstood, bloodlust is not a “common” denominator at all. It is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, and self-justified only by the ragtag right-wing edges of Christianity. The church of the earliest centuries would hardly permit its members to join the military. Their reasons were multiple. My point is simply that pacifism is a long-honored position in Christianity, and far more true to the faith than any bloodlust or warmongering, despite the blood-stained history of Christendom.
@Maazi NCO: “The last I checked Dubai was still a tourist centre … Saudi Arabia is still in business …”
The comparison is not apt. Neither of those countries has a *new* policy of vicious discrimination against gays. Dubai and Saudi Arabia are perceived as slowly moving toward Western values. Besides, the West is highly motivated to make friends with middle-eastern countries because of oil. If this bill is adopted, Uganda would be moving away from Western values (such as toleration, life, liberty), and I see no real motivation for Western countries to remain Uganda’s friends. I think you underestimate how strongly Western governments and Western peoples are repulsed by this bill.
Well put, Carol.
“That there are anti-gay politicians and evangelical pastors in Uganda is not surprising. Indeed you find them in all of Africa.” Charles Onyango-Obbo.
@David, the author did include anti-gay pastors. There are anti-gay Christians all over the world, unfortunately, who ignore the broad precepts of the Bible (love your neighbor as yourself, do not judge one another, in the way you judge others, you yourself will be judged and so much more) and focus hatred and intolerance on sexual minorities. In some cases, “homicidal bloodlust” is no exaggeration. But please don’t identify all of Christianity with its lowest common denominator. There are also Christians who would give (and have given) their lives to protect others from persecution.
“As interesting as the authors’ hypotheses are, he fails to identify the most obvious and persuasive explanation: the homicidal bloodlust that is known as Christianity.”
That is not a very clever statement, David. While it is true that certain ‘pastors’ have voiced support for the genocidal Bahati Bill, there are plenty of Christians, both inside and outside Uganda, who vehemently oppose it and all it stands for … Desmond Tutu and Warren Throckmorton, to give two examples. Oh, and me as well, as it happens! (And many of the brave human rights defenders targeted by the Bill are themselves Christians … don’t forget that!)
If you want to make generalized anti-Christian statements, I entirely respect your right to do so. But don’t misrepresent the situation with regard to Christianity and the Bahati Bill. That’s really not helpful.
Here’s an interesting piece in The East African attempting to explain the motives behind the Ugandan elites’ obsession with gays:
http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/OpEd/comment/Anti+gay+law++Why+Uganda+wants+to+become+a+pariah/-/434750/1329964/-/116h5enz/-/
As interesting as the authors’ hypotheses are, he fails to identify the most obvious and persuasive explanation: the homicidal bloodlust that is known as Christianity.
Well, anteros, I think it is not unusual for a country to use advertising to ‘spruce up’ its image. That said, I happen to know (and I mean KNOW) that there is very considerable concern in high places (very high places in fact) about the damage done to UG’s image by the Bahati Bill.
“Uganda hired a firm to polish up the nation’s image around the world.”
funny and sad.
I am curious how Uganda defines sodomy. According to Webster, it can mean any sex that is not penile-vaginal. When the term was originally invented in the Middle Ages, it included masturbation as well as same-sex behavior. For Uganda, does it include oral sex, or only anal sex? Does it include heterosexual anal or oral sex as well as homosexual sex? Does it include bestiality? All these are possible meanings.
Indeed, David M.,
It could also be pointed out (once again) that the Bahati Bill is not merely about so-called ‘sodomy’ … it is designed to criminalize anything that could be seen as ‘sexual’ and is also deliberately highly intrusive (a kind of ‘seek out and destroy’ programme that means that even those who are discreet about their consensual relations are being ‘slated for slaughter’).
@Maazi NCO: “The last I checked Dubai was still a tourist centre … Saudi Arabia is still in business …”
The comparison is not apt. Neither of those countries has a *new* policy of vicious discrimination against gays. Dubai and Saudi Arabia are perceived as slowly moving toward Western values. Besides, the West is highly motivated to make friends with middle-eastern countries because of oil. If this bill is adopted, Uganda would be moving away from Western values (such as toleration, life, liberty), and I see no real motivation for Western countries to remain Uganda’s friends. I think you underestimate how strongly Western governments and Western peoples are repulsed by this bill.
Well put, Carol.
“That there are anti-gay politicians and evangelical pastors in Uganda is not surprising. Indeed you find them in all of Africa.” Charles Onyango-Obbo.
@David, the author did include anti-gay pastors. There are anti-gay Christians all over the world, unfortunately, who ignore the broad precepts of the Bible (love your neighbor as yourself, do not judge one another, in the way you judge others, you yourself will be judged and so much more) and focus hatred and intolerance on sexual minorities. In some cases, “homicidal bloodlust” is no exaggeration. But please don’t identify all of Christianity with its lowest common denominator. There are also Christians who would give (and have given) their lives to protect others from persecution.
“As interesting as the authors’ hypotheses are, he fails to identify the most obvious and persuasive explanation: the homicidal bloodlust that is known as Christianity.”
That is not a very clever statement, David. While it is true that certain ‘pastors’ have voiced support for the genocidal Bahati Bill, there are plenty of Christians, both inside and outside Uganda, who vehemently oppose it and all it stands for … Desmond Tutu and Warren Throckmorton, to give two examples. Oh, and me as well, as it happens! (And many of the brave human rights defenders targeted by the Bill are themselves Christians … don’t forget that!)
If you want to make generalized anti-Christian statements, I entirely respect your right to do so. But don’t misrepresent the situation with regard to Christianity and the Bahati Bill. That’s really not helpful.
Here’s an interesting piece in The East African attempting to explain the motives behind the Ugandan elites’ obsession with gays:
http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/OpEd/comment/Anti+gay+law++Why+Uganda+wants+to+become+a+pariah/-/434750/1329964/-/116h5enz/-/
As interesting as the authors’ hypotheses are, he fails to identify the most obvious and persuasive explanation: the homicidal bloodlust that is known as Christianity.
Well, anteros, I think it is not unusual for a country to use advertising to ‘spruce up’ its image. That said, I happen to know (and I mean KNOW) that there is very considerable concern in high places (very high places in fact) about the damage done to UG’s image by the Bahati Bill.
“Uganda hired a firm to polish up the nation’s image around the world.”
funny and sad.
You sound very confident, ‘Maazi’. Let’s just see what happens, shall we?
Two points worth making:-
1. the Bahati Bill is about not only so-called ‘sodomy’ but also things like freedom of assembly and expression, and privacy … not to mention anything that might be construed as ‘sexual’ (e.g. grunting, hugging and blackslapping in parliament? 🙁 );
2. the Bill represents a NEW and VERY EXTREME repressive programme (don’t forget that so-called ‘serial offenders’ – slated for slaughter in the current draft of the Bill – could be straight people who repeatedly object publically to the persecution of their gay compatriots), and this is what has singled out UG for such rapt attention.
Maybe others will fall in love with a bahatificated UG … although I’m not sure that a place riven with violence, blackmail, corruption and suspicion is necessarily the most attractive ‘investment option’. Also, less outside involvement, even in the short term, will enable remaining players to ‘get more for less’. This is – for better or worse – the way of the free market in a globalized economy.
Oh, and I forgot to mention the Russians….
This is pure bluff !! Nothing else !!! The last I checked Dubai was still a tourist centre and Abu Dhabi is frequented by Western expatriates. Yet Dubai and Abu Dhabi are part of United Arab Emirates where federal law stipulates the death penalty for engaging in sodomy.
Saudi Arabia is still in business and I recall reading in one Western newspaper reporting that British Prime Minister David Cameron was over there a few weeks back to do business (i.e. sell billion-dollar military hardware) with the autocratic Royal House of Saud. And this a country that summarily executes any man who is found poking another man’s anal cavity.
What repercussions? Please don’t make me laugh. If you want to cut donor funding, please do so. If your companies don’t want to business in Uganda then let them go away and leave the investment playing field to the Brazilians, Indians, Chinese, Turkish, South Koreans, etc, etc, etc
@ SGM
I agree. And even if UG were to enact a ‘(Slowly) Kill the Gays Bill’, as proposed by advocates of an ‘amended’ Bahati Bill, there would be ‘very considerable repercussions’. I believe that this would be inevitable in order that others are deterred from following suit. I think cooler heads in Kampala well understand this.
(If the UK did even a tiny fraction of what Bahati proposes, she would be in deep trouble with the EU. There’s no reason for UG to have ‘special treatment’ when it comes to behaving badly.)
I just watched the video and the Ungandan man speaking is using an Apple computer. Do you think the gay man who runs Apple computer will want his companies products sold in a country that would jail and murder him? Don’t you think he will take the Kill the Gay’s bill personally? I do. I think he will take it very personally.
The truth is business goes to where they feel comfortable doing business. You know the CEO of Apple computer is a man who is gay right? Microsoft was out front supporting Civil Marriage for Sexual Minorities in it’s home State of Washington. What if Microsoft would not license is’t operating systems on any computers sold in Uganda? What if Apple refused to have their computers sold in Uganda? No iPhones and no iPads for Uganda.
If Uganda goes through with this Kill the Gays Bill they WILL be shunned by other nations and by Western Businesses. They will be shunned. Civilized people won’t want to go visit Uganda and businesses won’t want to do business there.
There is one aspect of all this Bill business that does speak well for Uganda: WITHIN UGANDA, there is (perhaps widespread) genuine, non-violent discussion about the Bill, demonstrating encouraging elements of ‘civic society’.
Add to this various levels of ‘disengagement’ by various governments, NGOs and charities, and the general damage caused by a ‘Bahati Act’ could be great indeed.
Would China step in with some kind of a ‘bailout’? Or would they see this as an opportunity to ‘drive a harder bargain’ than at present when it comes to aid and trade deals?
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that … it would be a great pity for Uganda to suffer because of the senseless activities of a bunch of overly-ambitious, extremist politicians like David Bahati.
You sound very confident, ‘Maazi’. Let’s just see what happens, shall we?
Two points worth making:-
1. the Bahati Bill is about not only so-called ‘sodomy’ but also things like freedom of assembly and expression, and privacy … not to mention anything that might be construed as ‘sexual’ (e.g. grunting, hugging and blackslapping in parliament? 🙁 );
2. the Bill represents a NEW and VERY EXTREME repressive programme (don’t forget that so-called ‘serial offenders’ – slated for slaughter in the current draft of the Bill – could be straight people who repeatedly object publically to the persecution of their gay compatriots), and this is what has singled out UG for such rapt attention.
Maybe others will fall in love with a bahatificated UG … although I’m not sure that a place riven with violence, blackmail, corruption and suspicion is necessarily the most attractive ‘investment option’. Also, less outside involvement, even in the short term, will enable remaining players to ‘get more for less’. This is – for better or worse – the way of the free market in a globalized economy.
Oh, and I forgot to mention the Russians….
This is pure bluff !! Nothing else !!! The last I checked Dubai was still a tourist centre and Abu Dhabi is frequented by Western expatriates. Yet Dubai and Abu Dhabi are part of United Arab Emirates where federal law stipulates the death penalty for engaging in sodomy.
Saudi Arabia is still in business and I recall reading in one Western newspaper reporting that British Prime Minister David Cameron was over there a few weeks back to do business (i.e. sell billion-dollar military hardware) with the autocratic Royal House of Saud. And this a country that summarily executes any man who is found poking another man’s anal cavity.
What repercussions? Please don’t make me laugh. If you want to cut donor funding, please do so. If your companies don’t want to business in Uganda then let them go away and leave the investment playing field to the Brazilians, Indians, Chinese, Turkish, South Koreans, etc, etc, etc
@ SGM
I agree. And even if UG were to enact a ‘(Slowly) Kill the Gays Bill’, as proposed by advocates of an ‘amended’ Bahati Bill, there would be ‘very considerable repercussions’. I believe that this would be inevitable in order that others are deterred from following suit. I think cooler heads in Kampala well understand this.
(If the UK did even a tiny fraction of what Bahati proposes, she would be in deep trouble with the EU. There’s no reason for UG to have ‘special treatment’ when it comes to behaving badly.)
I just watched the video and the Ungandan man speaking is using an Apple computer. Do you think the gay man who runs Apple computer will want his companies products sold in a country that would jail and murder him? Don’t you think he will take the Kill the Gay’s bill personally? I do. I think he will take it very personally.
The truth is business goes to where they feel comfortable doing business. You know the CEO of Apple computer is a man who is gay right? Microsoft was out front supporting Civil Marriage for Sexual Minorities in it’s home State of Washington. What if Microsoft would not license is’t operating systems on any computers sold in Uganda? What if Apple refused to have their computers sold in Uganda? No iPhones and no iPads for Uganda.
If Uganda goes through with this Kill the Gays Bill they WILL be shunned by other nations and by Western Businesses. They will be shunned. Civilized people won’t want to go visit Uganda and businesses won’t want to do business there.
There is one aspect of all this Bill business that does speak well for Uganda: WITHIN UGANDA, there is (perhaps widespread) genuine, non-violent discussion about the Bill, demonstrating encouraging elements of ‘civic society’.
Add to this various levels of ‘disengagement’ by various governments, NGOs and charities, and the general damage caused by a ‘Bahati Act’ could be great indeed.
Would China step in with some kind of a ‘bailout’? Or would they see this as an opportunity to ‘drive a harder bargain’ than at present when it comes to aid and trade deals?
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that … it would be a great pity for Uganda to suffer because of the senseless activities of a bunch of overly-ambitious, extremist politicians like David Bahati.