What is violence? Scott Lively and the Uganda anti-gay bill

This weekend Moody Church pastor Erwin Lutzer is slated to speak at a banquet hosted by the American for Truth About Homosexuality (AFTAH). Also on the agenda is the presentation of AFTAH’s “Truth Teller” Award to Scott Lively. You can read more about Mr. Lively here. I have written much about him, his book The Pink Swastika, and his work in Uganda.
Because of the presence of Lively, a Chicago area gay activist group, the Gay Liberation Network, wrote Rev. Lutzer to inform him of Lively’s views and background in Uganda. One of the accusations from the GLN is that Lively supports violence against gays in Uganda. Lively and LaBarbera say it is not true. Which is it?
To address this, the definition of violence is relevant. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines violence as an “exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse” or “injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation.” Another definition is given describing intense force or turbulence, such as a violent storm. As it relates to interpersonal violence, the violent action may involve physical injury or “profanation” which can include verbal debasement (The Pink Swastika qualifies) or contemptuous treatment.
When it comes to the situation in Uganda, Scott Lively has rejected the death penalty associated with the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. He favors a situation where those convicted of homosexual behavior would have an option for treatment. In other words, face a penalty of some kind or “choose” to go into a government sanctioned process to change sexual orientation. Here is what he wrote about the matter in an essay:

Let me be absolutely clear. I do not support the proposed anti-homosexuality law as written. It does not emphasize rehabilitation over punishment and the punishment that it calls for is unacceptably harsh. However, if the offending sections were sufficiently modified, the proposed law would represent an encouraging step in the right direction. As one of the first laws of this century to recognize that the destructiveness of the “gay” agenda warrants opposition by government, it would deserve support from Christian believers and other advocates of marriage-based culture around the world. 

Note that Lively advises support for the bill if the death penalty was “modified.” As a reminder, the bill without the death penalty would still provide life in jail for someone who “touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.”
Is advocating life in jail for disapproved private conduct violence toward those who engage in that conduct?
Scott Lively was interviewed by Marissa Van Zeller of Vanguard Television and asked his view of the bill without the death penalty. In that interview, he supported a bill without the death penalty as “the lesser of two evils.”
Watch:
Lively said:

Like I said, I would not have written the bill this way. But what it comes down to is a question of lesser of two evils, you know like many of the political choices that we have. What is the lesser of two evils here? To allow the American and European gay activists to continue to do to that country what they’ve done here? Or to have a law that may be overly harsh in some regards for people who are indulging in voluntary sexual conduct? I think the lesser of two evils is for the bill to go through.

Scott Lively says he does not favor violence toward gay people, but he does say that the Ugandans are to be commended and that the bill, sans the death penalty, would be acceptable. If the bill was passed and enforced in Uganda, GLBT people would be subject to arrest for physical actions that someone in authority thought was sexual in nature. They could lose everything they have and spend their remaining days in a Ugandan prison. Others could be arrested simply for advocating on behalf of GLBT people. Is this violence?
What if Scott Lively had his way and GLBT people in Uganda (or here, since he likes the idea so much) were forced into some kind of “treatment.” Even NARTH who is hosting an advocate of criminalization at their upcoming conference, has said forced treatment doesn’t work. Exodus clearly denounced it. If NARTH and Exodus say treatment applied under durress is ineffective, then what model are you recommending Mr. Lively?
I surely don’t want the government to take my freedom, access to my family and possessions because because of a moral disagreement. If I was the recipient of such treatment, it would seem like violence to me.
 

36 thoughts on “What is violence? Scott Lively and the Uganda anti-gay bill”

  1. Patrocles
    My point on Lively’s behaviour is this: even when he was attempting to ‘excuse’ himself over his UG trip, he admitted that he knew perfectly well that very harsh would likely be proposed. But it appears that, instead of focusing on tempering the ‘enthusiasm for harshness’ he now effectively blames the Ugandans at the March 2009 conference for (sorry about the awkward syntax), he said things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGHmrOGP2NA – hardly the kind of choice of words one usually associates with someone seeking to ameliorate harshness and bigotry.
    Do you see the point?
    And then there were the boasts about the ‘nuclear bomb’ against the ‘gay agenda’ …
    I suspect it’s only since other evangelicals have condemned the Bahati Bill that Lively has started to say that he really opposes it.
    (Of course there are some gay people with psychopathic tendencies, just as there are some straight people with similar tendencies … and don’t forget that many men who rape other men identify as ‘straight’ and have consensual relations with women – a reminder perhaps that rape has little or nothing to do with ‘sexual identity’, unless perhaps one is looking at it from the point of view of who is the victim?)

  2. Patrocles
    My point on Lively’s behaviour is this: even when he was attempting to ‘excuse’ himself over his UG trip, he admitted that he knew perfectly well that very harsh would likely be proposed. But it appears that, instead of focusing on tempering the ‘enthusiasm for harshness’ he now effectively blames the Ugandans at the March 2009 conference for (sorry about the awkward syntax), he said things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGHmrOGP2NA – hardly the kind of choice of words one usually associates with someone seeking to ameliorate harshness and bigotry.
    Do you see the point?
    And then there were the boasts about the ‘nuclear bomb’ against the ‘gay agenda’ …
    I suspect it’s only since other evangelicals have condemned the Bahati Bill that Lively has started to say that he really opposes it.
    (Of course there are some gay people with psychopathic tendencies, just as there are some straight people with similar tendencies … and don’t forget that many men who rape other men identify as ‘straight’ and have consensual relations with women – a reminder perhaps that rape has little or nothing to do with ‘sexual identity’, unless perhaps one is looking at it from the point of view of who is the victim?)

  3. Okay I didn’t comment the first time but now that you are repeating the grammatical error I will speak up Patrocles in order to be of help. The word you are looking for is alluded not allured.
    Prolly this is Pot/Kettle/Black as when I am on one computer I have it is missing keypads on a couple letters on the keyboard, and also I have a small handicap with my right hand which causes weird typing errors, so I know for a fact I am guilty as well.

  4. Okay I didn’t comment the first time but now that you are repeating the grammatical error I will speak up Patrocles in order to be of help. The word you are looking for is alluded not allured.
    Prolly this is Pot/Kettle/Black as when I am on one computer I have it is missing keypads on a couple letters on the keyboard, and also I have a small handicap with my right hand which causes weird typing errors, so I know for a fact I am guilty as well.

  5. Warren,
    I didn’t even know that I was in an UNmoderated status. Please, moderate me!
    I asked a question, and in order to explain myself I proposed two possible answers. I don’t feel that I asserted something about that matter. I thought that the blog was determined to enlighten us (your statement that you don’t normally comment on ignorance is somewhat puzzling). I admit I don’t know more about Uganda than what I found in this blog.
    On the other hand, meseems that Lively allured to something. To what? Perhaps something Richard and you haven”t heard of?

  6. Warren,
    I didn’t even know that I was in an UNmoderated status. Please, moderate me!
    I asked a question, and in order to explain myself I proposed two possible answers. I don’t feel that I asserted something about that matter. I thought that the blog was determined to enlighten us (your statement that you don’t normally comment on ignorance is somewhat puzzling). I admit I don’t know more about Uganda than what I found in this blog.
    On the other hand, meseems that Lively allured to something. To what? Perhaps something Richard and you haven”t heard of?

  7. Here’s an interesting twist: witchdoctors vs. an sipposed Balokole-gay threat: http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1256650/-/bi0gdtz/-/index.html
    Not sure what to make of this alleged ‘realignment’ (it’s usually Balokole that say there’s a witchdoctor-gay threat, isn’t it?!).
    Soap opera stuff?
    (But I do agree with Mayanja that “that there is a difference between traditional healers, herbalists, sorcerers and cannibals.“)

  8. Patrocles
    Where Lively’s (and Bahati’s) thesis instantly falls apart is seeringly evident in the text of the Bahati Bill itself. The Bill is aimed squarely at Ugandans – not Americans or Europeans, but Ugandans. It is designed effectively to exterminate (either quickly, through what the Vatican has implied would be ‘state-sponsored murder’***, or slowly, through vicious persecution and/or imprisonment) Ugandans. Got the message, old chap?!
    *** http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a9849daa-dd60-4028-adc0-2dfa024cb3a9
    My view re. the Bahati Bill (and similar outrages): one cannot expect to achieve anything by ‘speaking politely’ to bullies. Bullies must be faced with firm, fair-minded resolve in word and, if necessary, deed. (Firm words often work, since, as we all know, bullies are also cowards.)

  9. Patrocles
    Where Lively’s (and Bahati’s) thesis instantly falls apart is seeringly evident in the text of the Bahati Bill itself. The Bill is aimed squarely at Ugandans – not Americans or Europeans, but Ugandans. It is designed effectively to exterminate (either quickly, through what the Vatican has implied would be ‘state-sponsored murder’***, or slowly, through vicious persecution and/or imprisonment) Ugandans. Got the message, old chap?!
    *** http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a9849daa-dd60-4028-adc0-2dfa024cb3a9
    My view re. the Bahati Bill (and similar outrages): one cannot expect to achieve anything by ‘speaking politely’ to bullies. Bullies must be faced with firm, fair-minded resolve in word and, if necessary, deed. (Firm words often work, since, as we all know, bullies are also cowards.)

  10. Patrocles: This is clearly a topic you know nothing about.
    I normally don’t comment on ignorance, but this one is pretty far out there. You ask questions, then you answer them with assertions as if you know the answers.
    Time for you to go back on moderated status.

  11. Lively asks if it would be better “to allow the American and European gay activists to continue to do to that country what they’ve done here?”
    Could someone please inform us about the facts Lively allures to?
    Are American/European gays exploiting natives for their sexual pleasure?
    Are American/European gays imposing their cultural pattern on Uganda?
    I’m convinced that Ugandan natives themselves have sexual rules and therefore sexual deviant behaviour. And I’m sure that they should learn to admit that and tolerate that. But there’s no need why Ugandans ought to accept the European/American construction of “sexual identity”, “homosexuality” etc. They have to define and to solve their own problems. Perhaps we would do more to prevent the Bahati Bill, if we helped to reform the manners of American/European gays in Uganda?

  12. Patrocles: This is clearly a topic you know nothing about.
    I normally don’t comment on ignorance, but this one is pretty far out there. You ask questions, then you answer them with assertions as if you know the answers.
    Time for you to go back on moderated status.

  13. Lively asks if it would be better “to allow the American and European gay activists to continue to do to that country what they’ve done here?”
    Could someone please inform us about the facts Lively allures to?
    Are American/European gays exploiting natives for their sexual pleasure?
    Are American/European gays imposing their cultural pattern on Uganda?
    I’m convinced that Ugandan natives themselves have sexual rules and therefore sexual deviant behaviour. And I’m sure that they should learn to admit that and tolerate that. But there’s no need why Ugandans ought to accept the European/American construction of “sexual identity”, “homosexuality” etc. They have to define and to solve their own problems. Perhaps we would do more to prevent the Bahati Bill, if we helped to reform the manners of American/European gays in Uganda?

  14. If Lively took the position that China should not kill Tibetans, but only round them up, put them in prison for life, and rehabilitate them so that they reflect the culture and values of the Han majority, he would be advocating genocide. If he further corresponded with the Chinese government to provide specific advice as to how to draft legislation to effectuate the Tibetan round-up, he would be abetting genocide.
    His opposition to executions would be no defense.
    @Maazi:
    I want to congratulate you on your swagger. You are a real man, standing up to the people who send you aid. With manly men like you in charge, Uganda will soon enjoy a standard of living comparable to that of Zimbabwe.

  15. If Lively took the position that China should not kill Tibetans, but only round them up, put them in prison for life, and rehabilitate them so that they reflect the culture and values of the Han majority, he would be advocating genocide. If he further corresponded with the Chinese government to provide specific advice as to how to draft legislation to effectuate the Tibetan round-up, he would be abetting genocide.
    His opposition to executions would be no defense.
    @Maazi:
    I want to congratulate you on your swagger. You are a real man, standing up to the people who send you aid. With manly men like you in charge, Uganda will soon enjoy a standard of living comparable to that of Zimbabwe.

  16. (By the way, on the matter of the Tullow Oil ‘scandal’, to which you alluded above, it should be noted that both the company and the accused ministers deny the allegations – which is to be expected, of course: they would hardly admit them. I can’t comment on these allegations and subsequent denials, except to say that, in the case of Hilary Onek, I’m not sure the bribery story hangs together too well. IF it is the case that Onek accepted bribes to help Tullow escape its alleged tax liability, then why was Tullow reportedly so pleased when Onek was moved to Internal Affairs? Surely they [Tullow] would have preferred it if he had remained en poste at Energy, if only to help keep the alleged bribes covered up. My feeling is that Onek actually wanted to do things ‘by the book’. He is also reported to have voiced – quite rightly in my view – concerns having UG’s oil industry too dependent on one company … hardly the actions of a man who had been bribed by that company.
    Just something for you to think about, ‘Maazi NCO MP’.)

  17. I’m not ‘gallivanting’ anywhere. The threat of bahatism is still very real.
    Uganda is already a pretty ‘highly sexed’ part of the world, from what I can gather. The campaign against the Bahati Bill and its supporters is in fact not about ‘sex’ at all.
    All that has happened recently is that the UK Govt. has made public a policy it decided on months ago. I would add that it concerns aid to governments, not aid overall. I hope that, if it is deemed necessary to cut aid to the UG authorities, equivalent assistance will be offered to those most in need by other routes/means. There are grounds for this hope, from what I’ve heard.

  18. Anyway, at least the UK Government has now made its position on Bahati-type laws crystal clear. Others (the US, the Swedes, …) had done so before, and more may join in. Lively & Co. are way out there on the ‘margins of madness’.

    So you are gallivanting about the streets of London in celebratory mood simply because a cash-strapped “smart Alec” like Dave-Boy Cameron is using an ingenious excuse to defend his undeclared policy of saving and repatriating money badly needed to salvage Bankrupt Britain from an economic melt-down. You are celebrating a man who just used “Gay-Agenda-For-Africa” excuse to mouth nonsensical platitudes to an obviously impressed mass of Britons who openly engage in sexual deviance.
    What is the big deal about Cameron withdrawing his “influence-peddling funds” which some naive idiots continue to call “donor aid packages”? The average “Joe” and “Jill” on the streets of an African nation will laugh to high heavens and ask Cameron and his band of wannabe Empire Revivalists to go and jump into the Atlantic ocean and be sure to have sacks of their blackmail cash money with them at the bottom of the ocean. As I speak, the Malawians are preparing a new law to ban sex deviants from ever adopting children. Oops, I guess the British government just failed in their attempt to create an exotic colony for gay sex tourism. Any foreign sex deviant who thinks that African people will allow their nations to turn into international gay sex centres like Thailand and Cambodia is simply leaving in Cucumber Land.
    In Uganda, we are going to take action at the “appointed time” to protect the culture of the Ugandan people. Meanwhile, our sovereign parliament continues to hold the executive branch of the Ugandan State accountable for all contracts entered with foreign companies and nation-states. No foreigner or his/her domestic puppets shall exercise any veto power over the Ugandan people

  19. (By the way, on the matter of the Tullow Oil ‘scandal’, to which you alluded above, it should be noted that both the company and the accused ministers deny the allegations – which is to be expected, of course: they would hardly admit them. I can’t comment on these allegations and subsequent denials, except to say that, in the case of Hilary Onek, I’m not sure the bribery story hangs together too well. IF it is the case that Onek accepted bribes to help Tullow escape its alleged tax liability, then why was Tullow reportedly so pleased when Onek was moved to Internal Affairs? Surely they [Tullow] would have preferred it if he had remained en poste at Energy, if only to help keep the alleged bribes covered up. My feeling is that Onek actually wanted to do things ‘by the book’. He is also reported to have voiced – quite rightly in my view – concerns having UG’s oil industry too dependent on one company … hardly the actions of a man who had been bribed by that company.
    Just something for you to think about, ‘Maazi NCO MP’.)

  20. I’m not ‘gallivanting’ anywhere. The threat of bahatism is still very real.
    Uganda is already a pretty ‘highly sexed’ part of the world, from what I can gather. The campaign against the Bahati Bill and its supporters is in fact not about ‘sex’ at all.
    All that has happened recently is that the UK Govt. has made public a policy it decided on months ago. I would add that it concerns aid to governments, not aid overall. I hope that, if it is deemed necessary to cut aid to the UG authorities, equivalent assistance will be offered to those most in need by other routes/means. There are grounds for this hope, from what I’ve heard.

  21. Anyway, at least the UK Government has now made its position on Bahati-type laws crystal clear. Others (the US, the Swedes, …) had done so before, and more may join in. Lively & Co. are way out there on the ‘margins of madness’.

    So you are gallivanting about the streets of London in celebratory mood simply because a cash-strapped “smart Alec” like Dave-Boy Cameron is using an ingenious excuse to defend his undeclared policy of saving and repatriating money badly needed to salvage Bankrupt Britain from an economic melt-down. You are celebrating a man who just used “Gay-Agenda-For-Africa” excuse to mouth nonsensical platitudes to an obviously impressed mass of Britons who openly engage in sexual deviance.
    What is the big deal about Cameron withdrawing his “influence-peddling funds” which some naive idiots continue to call “donor aid packages”? The average “Joe” and “Jill” on the streets of an African nation will laugh to high heavens and ask Cameron and his band of wannabe Empire Revivalists to go and jump into the Atlantic ocean and be sure to have sacks of their blackmail cash money with them at the bottom of the ocean. As I speak, the Malawians are preparing a new law to ban sex deviants from ever adopting children. Oops, I guess the British government just failed in their attempt to create an exotic colony for gay sex tourism. Any foreign sex deviant who thinks that African people will allow their nations to turn into international gay sex centres like Thailand and Cambodia is simply leaving in Cucumber Land.
    In Uganda, we are going to take action at the “appointed time” to protect the culture of the Ugandan people. Meanwhile, our sovereign parliament continues to hold the executive branch of the Ugandan State accountable for all contracts entered with foreign companies and nation-states. No foreigner or his/her domestic puppets shall exercise any veto power over the Ugandan people

  22. The ‘formal’ death penalty is actually almost a non-issue in a way. Putting people from ‘despised groups’ in enclosed places with violent criminals is a recipe for violence and/or slaughter, whatever the Bill might say.
    Anyway, at least the UK Government has now made its position on Bahati-type laws crystal clear. Others (the US, the Swedes, …) had done so before, and more may join in. Lively & Co. are way out there on the ‘margins of madness’.
    Incidentally, I was chatting with a UG friend yesterday and he said that there was increasing disillusion among the intelligentsia with these so-called ‘pastors’ – an encouraging trend there perhaps.

  23. Ah, so the lovely Scott Lively thinks that totalitarian legislation that could lead to indiscriminate slaughter is ‘the better of two evils’. What does he think is ‘the worse of two evils’? I’d be fascinated to learn!

  24. The ‘formal’ death penalty is actually almost a non-issue in a way. Putting people from ‘despised groups’ in enclosed places with violent criminals is a recipe for violence and/or slaughter, whatever the Bill might say.
    Anyway, at least the UK Government has now made its position on Bahati-type laws crystal clear. Others (the US, the Swedes, …) had done so before, and more may join in. Lively & Co. are way out there on the ‘margins of madness’.
    Incidentally, I was chatting with a UG friend yesterday and he said that there was increasing disillusion among the intelligentsia with these so-called ‘pastors’ – an encouraging trend there perhaps.

  25. Ah, so the lovely Scott Lively thinks that totalitarian legislation that could lead to indiscriminate slaughter is ‘the better of two evils’. What does he think is ‘the worse of two evils’? I’d be fascinated to learn!

  26. As a reminder, the bill without the death penalty would still provide life in jail for someone who ‘touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.

    It’s important to note that in Uganda a life sentence may in practice mean the death penalty anyway; actuallly, it could well be worse than death.
    In fact, you don’t even need to be convicted; just being arrested can result in torture, slavery or death.

    The Prisons Service recorded 103 prisoner deaths nationwide from torture, overcrowding, malnutrition, poor sanitation, disease, overwork, and lack of medical care.
    US State Department Human Rights Report 2010, pages 9 & 10
    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/160149.pdf.

    “Prisoners at rural prisons, including the elderly, individuals with disabilities, and pregnant women, are frequently caned, or are even stoned, handcuffed to a tree, or burned, when they refuse to perform hard labor.
    “Prisoners in Uganda, many not convicted of any crime, are brutally beaten and forced to work under conditions resembling slavery,” said Katherine Todrys, a health and human rights researcher at Human Rights Watch…”
    …..
    “Prisoners sleep on their sides or in shifts. The food is insufficient, and nutritional deficiences leave inmates vulnerable to infections and can cause blindness. Sex is traded by the most vulnerable inmates to other inmates for food.”
    …..
    “Human Rights Watch found multiple incidents where prisoners had been stripped of their clothing and put into small, dark, cells, the floors covered with ankle-deep water, where they were given minimal food. ”
    Human Rights Watch
    Even Dead Bodies Must Work
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/07/14/uganda-forced-labor-disease-imperil-prisoners

  27. As a reminder, the bill without the death penalty would still provide life in jail for someone who ‘touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.

    It’s important to note that in Uganda a life sentence may in practice mean the death penalty anyway; actuallly, it could well be worse than death.
    In fact, you don’t even need to be convicted; just being arrested can result in torture, slavery or death.

    The Prisons Service recorded 103 prisoner deaths nationwide from torture, overcrowding, malnutrition, poor sanitation, disease, overwork, and lack of medical care.
    US State Department Human Rights Report 2010, pages 9 & 10
    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/160149.pdf.

    “Prisoners at rural prisons, including the elderly, individuals with disabilities, and pregnant women, are frequently caned, or are even stoned, handcuffed to a tree, or burned, when they refuse to perform hard labor.
    “Prisoners in Uganda, many not convicted of any crime, are brutally beaten and forced to work under conditions resembling slavery,” said Katherine Todrys, a health and human rights researcher at Human Rights Watch…”
    …..
    “Prisoners sleep on their sides or in shifts. The food is insufficient, and nutritional deficiences leave inmates vulnerable to infections and can cause blindness. Sex is traded by the most vulnerable inmates to other inmates for food.”
    …..
    “Human Rights Watch found multiple incidents where prisoners had been stripped of their clothing and put into small, dark, cells, the floors covered with ankle-deep water, where they were given minimal food. ”
    Human Rights Watch
    Even Dead Bodies Must Work
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/07/14/uganda-forced-labor-disease-imperil-prisoners

  28. What is truly tragic is that Scott Lively’s position, that he has sold with such fervor that it has begun a pogrom of repression against homosexuals in Uganda, and resulted in the death of David Kato, is not supported by the Bible. He should read Father Daniel Helminiak’s What the Bible REALLY Says About Homosexuality. Then perhaps, his ministry would resemble Christ’s a little closer, and Hitler’s a little less.

  29. What is truly tragic is that Scott Lively’s position, that he has sold with such fervor that it has begun a pogrom of repression against homosexuals in Uganda, and resulted in the death of David Kato, is not supported by the Bible. He should read Father Daniel Helminiak’s What the Bible REALLY Says About Homosexuality. Then perhaps, his ministry would resemble Christ’s a little closer, and Hitler’s a little less.

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