Been writing away on my book while current events come and go. One big story which I posted about here is about whether or not reparative therapy is conducted at Michele and Marcus Bachmann’s therapy clinic.
I am writing about same-sex attracted people who marry heterosexually. In addition to clinical experience, I conducted several in depth interviews of men and women in what are termed, “mixed orientation marriages,” and I surveyed over 300 same-sex attracted men and women who are or have been married to someone of the opposite sex.
The survey was not a pre and post examination of therapy or even change efforts. However, many people disclosed change efforts and many of the participants were involved in member ministries of Exodus. I figure if change in orientation happens a lot, I would find it in this group.
That is not what I found. On the whole, the group assessed themselves as more gay in their attractions and fantasies than when they were 18 and when they were married. Most of the people were still married, but it would not be accurate to say that their orientation had changed.
The therapist quoted in the hidden camera report appeared to say that it was possible to change orientation completely. Saying this is not consistent with research and clinical experience, nor is it consistent with the APA’s recent task force report. It is also is not of necessity an indicator that reparative therapy is taking place. Reparative therapy is a subtype of sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) which acts on the premise that being gay is the result of poor parenting. Find some way to address the parenting problems and with time and effort, the same-sex attractions fade a lot or a little.
As I have discussed here many times before, there is little evidence for the reparative drive theory and even less that such approaches actually have potency for orientation change.
On the other hand, some (many?) people who are evangelical find ways to maintain commitments to their marriages or to remain chaste to the degree that they feel loyal to their faith. A recent New York Times magazine article provided an in depth look at that approach to situations when religious belief and sexual attractions seem to conflict.
Nuance often goes out the window when a political, especially presidential, campaign is a part of the mix. In this case, that seems to be happening. Given the reporting about the Bachmann’s statements about homosexuality, there seems to be little doubt that they have aligned with the political side of the ex-gay movement. On the other hand, I doubt that Marcus Bachmann and his associates operate like Joe Nicolosi’s Thomas Aquinas Clinic, as a reparative therapy office, subjecting large numbers of patients to fables about how the past and present relate. I suspect the Bachmann’s interest in ex-gays is because the change is possible narrative reinforce their biases about homosexuality in general. Let me add that I am pretty sure I am right about that last statement, although I could be wrong about the one before it.
Politically, the matter is unlikely to hurt Michele Bachmann in Iowa or among rank and file religious conservatives. It may however, help illustrate why she cannot win the nomination. Whatever they are doing at Bachmann and Associates, it is not transparent, nor state of the art. Trust is not inspired by incompetence or a lack of transparency. The Bachmanns will need to face the issues deliberately, spell out their beliefs and let people decide what it means for their support. It may not need to be before the Iowa caucus, but it will be some time after that.
34 thoughts on “The fuss over Michele Bachmann and reparative therapy”
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David/Teresa: The Bachmanns can get a fair shake by simply addressing the issues. Does his clinic work with clinic to cure/change homosexual attractions? Do certain therapists do that? They have dodged this by saying they can’t talk about it. Of course this is not true; they can address this in a general way without compromising confidentiality.
If they do this, then what is their model? Is a religiously based approach? Is it just we are all heterosexual and thus should abstain from anything else?
There will be some people who will not like anything they say but for those who might be inclined to be fair, openness would help. As it is, it looks like they have something to hide.
RE: undercover clients. In general, I think it is valuable when one needs to verify illegal activity. In this case, there have been some questions about the legality of the Bachmann clinic. If the undercover investigation discovered Richard Cohen clones, I suspect we might be having a different conversation. Pro-family people should be careful to criticize undercover stealth, since the Planned Parenthood group was discovered doing some very shady things which was discovered in that manner.
If Bachmann’s therapist would have been using the SIT framework, there might still have been some video released but the steak would have been way different than the sizzle.
Not likely to happen.
Perhaps we can get the transcript of the sessions from Wayne Besen.
Perhaps Warren or David Roberts can encourage Wayne to do so…often this reveals important contexts that either support the allegations further (reinforcing TWO’s credibility) or undermining the allegations.
In either case, I find it sad that Warren does not acknowledge the obvious bind of the therapist being actively deceived by a client, thinking he is aligning with the patient’s beliefs.
The anti-religious attitudes of the APA are well documented in the first 50 years of the profession (to the point of associating many mental illnesses in the DSM III with religious behavior and beliefs) and only recently have they a) defined religiosity as a diversity variable requiring therapeutic attunement for the ethical therapist; and b) acknowledged the importance of respecting one’s religious beliefs when dealing with Same Sex Attractions.
Especially as the word “change” as noted here leads to all sorts of differing interpretations.
Deeply troubling.
I have several questions concerning homosexuals, Michele Bachmann and the upcoming, never ending, Presidential Campaign:
1.) Just because we care here, and some (many?) homosexuals care what Michele and Marcus Bachmann think or speak about this issue … is this really a show-stopper for the vast majority of Americans? Seriously? Unless, of course, the ever-present media, which is a clear and present danger in many areas, makes it so. I don’t think the average Tom, Dick, and Harry … Jane, Sue, and Mary give a tinkers dam about any of this. Homosexuality and Same sex marriage as voting concerns are certainly important; but, they’re not the only issues in the universe. There are other very serious issues that affect more people where they live, personally … like jobs, loss of homes, sons and daughters in never-ending wars, etc.
2.) Can the Bachmann’s ever get a fair shake on any of this? Whatever their ‘real’ views about being homosexual (which I would like to know), they are certainly a family that has values, and lives by those values. They have 5 children … quite unusual for our day and age. They’ve fostered 23 adolescent, pregnant teens. I’d say in many ways they walk-the-walk, as well as talk-the-talk.
Will I vote for her, I can’t say. However, I’d certainly appreciate less politicization around all this, and more unbiased news about her views. Sadly, I’m sure that won’t happen.
Criminal vs Ethical
David,
I have no idea if Mrs Scott’s assertions in her book are true or not. It sounds, from the article, as if her book is based on some letters that Obama’s mother wrote. My issue is that based on this book you claim that Obama lied when the book itself proves nothing.
The fact remains that people are denied coverage based on pre-existing conditions, that it is a widespread problem and that our healthcare system was in need of “dramatic legislation” as you call it. We will likely never know for sure if Obama lied, or didn’t completely remember events that took place approx 14 years prior to his making those speeches, or if the book tells us the whole story.
Emily is correct though – this is a distraction from the Bachmann problem. You seem very quick to embrace information that portrays people or institutions you disagree with in a bad light without any apparent amount of critical analysis – such as this book about Obama and his mother and in another thread your comments about Planned Parenthood.
Mary# ~ Jul 14, 2011 at 5:34 pm
“Is any therapist who says change is possible and aligns themselves with the client practicing reparative therapy?”
not necessarily. However, the more popular press is using the term reparative therapy to mean any type of conversion therapy (see StraightGrandmother’s comments about kleenex in the other thread).
David,
I have no idea if Mrs Scott’s assertions in her book are true or not. It sounds, from the article, as if her book is based on some letters that Obama’s mother wrote. My issue is that based on this book you claim that Obama lied when the book itself proves nothing.
The fact remains that people are denied coverage based on pre-existing conditions, that it is a widespread problem and that our healthcare system was in need of “dramatic legislation” as you call it. We will likely never know for sure if Obama lied, or didn’t completely remember events that took place approx 14 years prior to his making those speeches, or if the book tells us the whole story.
Emily is correct though – this is a distraction from the Bachmann problem. You seem very quick to embrace information that portrays people or institutions you disagree with in a bad light without any apparent amount of critical analysis – such as this book about Obama and his mother and in another thread your comments about Planned Parenthood.
Mary# ~ Jul 14, 2011 at 5:34 pm
“Is any therapist who says change is possible and aligns themselves with the client practicing reparative therapy?”
not necessarily. However, the more popular press is using the term reparative therapy to mean any type of conversion therapy (see StraightGrandmother’s comments about kleenex in the other thread).
David,
OMG – Really? One of the great things about Obama’s healthcare overhaul is that he is trying to get rid of an insurance company’s ability to withhold coverage for people with existing conditions. As someone who has been denied coverage based on this, I cannot help but applaud the man. Do you support this kind of thing?
David,
OMG – Really? One of the great things about Obama’s healthcare overhaul is that he is trying to get rid of an insurance company’s ability to withhold coverage for people with existing conditions. As someone who has been denied coverage based on this, I cannot help but applaud the man. Do you support this kind of thing?
Warren, I thought you might want to read this article on The Christian Post by Greg Quinlan the President of PFOX.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/michele-bachman-and-ex-gays-52291/
I thought these were interesting quotes from the article,
“The ex-gay community includes thousands of former homosexuals like myself who benefited from counseling. We did not choose our homosexual feelings, but we did exercise our right to seek help to change those feelings. As a registered nurse, I saw hundreds of gay men die of AIDS before I finally left the gay lifestyle.”
“The American Psychological Association adheres to a code of ethics which calls on their members to respect a person’s right to self-determination. Therefore the only question about the Dr. Bachmann news is this: Should homosexuals have the right to determine heterosexuality? That is, if a gay man decides he wants to live as a healthy heterosexual, as I decided, should homosexuals have the right to veto that decision?”
These words jumped out at me, “seek help to change those feelings” and I immediately thought about your article, “How Much Change is enough”
/2011/06/24/how-much-change-is-enough/comment-page-1/
Question for the crowd?
Is any therapist who says change is possible and aligns themselves with the client practicing reparative therapy?
Warren, I thought you might want to read this article on The Christian Post by Greg Quinlan the President of PFOX.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/michele-bachman-and-ex-gays-52291/
I thought these were interesting quotes from the article,
“The ex-gay community includes thousands of former homosexuals like myself who benefited from counseling. We did not choose our homosexual feelings, but we did exercise our right to seek help to change those feelings. As a registered nurse, I saw hundreds of gay men die of AIDS before I finally left the gay lifestyle.”
“The American Psychological Association adheres to a code of ethics which calls on their members to respect a person’s right to self-determination. Therefore the only question about the Dr. Bachmann news is this: Should homosexuals have the right to determine heterosexuality? That is, if a gay man decides he wants to live as a healthy heterosexual, as I decided, should homosexuals have the right to veto that decision?”
These words jumped out at me, “seek help to change those feelings” and I immediately thought about your article, “How Much Change is enough”
/2011/06/24/how-much-change-is-enough/comment-page-1/
lol, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? I don’t get why defending Bachmann is so important to you.
A right winger gets called out and suddenly it’s all “But, But OBAMA is bad too!! Planned Parenthood does EVIL!!”
neither of those things have anything to do with the fact that Bachmann lied, didn’t acknowledge the lie when he was found out, and is lying about something that is roundly discredited by actual science.
Did you read the TWO Investigative Report by John M. Becker
Question for the crowd?
Is any therapist who says change is possible and aligns themselves with the client practicing reparative therapy?
From the New York Times:
Here is a fun article about a Another prominent Christian Leader who lied about his own history to make a compelling story to help him get elected and pass dramatic legislation:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/us/politics/14mother.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha24
Criminal vs Ethical
lol, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? I don’t get why defending Bachmann is so important to you.
A right winger gets called out and suddenly it’s all “But, But OBAMA is bad too!! Planned Parenthood does EVIL!!”
neither of those things have anything to do with the fact that Bachmann lied, didn’t acknowledge the lie when he was found out, and is lying about something that is roundly discredited by actual science.
For me, the bigger Marcus Bachmann controversy is his credentials. Bachmann received his MA from Pat Robertson’s university and claims a “PhD – Clinical Psychology” from Union Graduate School, OH. Another blogger has tried to make sense of Bachmann’s “PhD” and has noted discrepancies:
Unfortunately, from my own experience I know conservative Christians are less interested in knowing about a therapist’s training and credentials and are more persuaded by whether a therapist is a member of the same religious club. The ex-gay counselors I met with in the 1990s even explained that they could not receive accreditation because mainstream academia was too pro-gay.
Did you read the TWO Investigative Report by John M. Becker
PP took the right steps to correct a situation uncovered. The Bachmann’s have barely made a peep about this whole thing. HUGE difference.
And yes, a counselor who followed the guidelines of major [scientific/secular] medical orgs in the country would have said what Warren said in has last comment.
From the New York Times:
Here is a fun article about a Another prominent Christian Leader who lied about his own history to make a compelling story to help him get elected and pass dramatic legislation:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/us/politics/14mother.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha24
For me, the bigger Marcus Bachmann controversy is his credentials. Bachmann received his MA from Pat Robertson’s university and claims a “PhD – Clinical Psychology” from Union Graduate School, OH. Another blogger has tried to make sense of Bachmann’s “PhD” and has noted discrepancies:
Unfortunately, from my own experience I know conservative Christians are less interested in knowing about a therapist’s training and credentials and are more persuaded by whether a therapist is a member of the same religious club. The ex-gay counselors I met with in the 1990s even explained that they could not receive accreditation because mainstream academia was too pro-gay.
PP took the right steps to correct a situation uncovered. The Bachmann’s have barely made a peep about this whole thing. HUGE difference.
And yes, a counselor who followed the guidelines of major [scientific/secular] medical orgs in the country would have said what Warren said in has last comment.
David Blakeslee# ~ Jul 13, 2011 at 9:07 pm
“Big difference, however with planned parenthood. Illegal and clearly fraudulent activities. ”
Not such a big difference. 1st, as I recall there was only one counselor (out of several who were taped) engaged in fraudulent activities and she was fired when planned parenthood management found out about it. In the other undercover stings, there was no improper activity recorded. And, the counselors alerted police about the undercover investigators activities.
and in both cases the undercover reporters were clearly out to get the organizations rather than simply report on what happens.
Thanks for checking in.
Big difference, however with planned parenthood. Illegal and clearly fraudulent activities. (prostitution, child exploitation, illegal entry in the country).
Perhaps a lawyer can check in and show the stark differences which seem clear to me.
David Blakeslee# ~ Jul 13, 2011 at 9:07 pm
“Big difference, however with planned parenthood. Illegal and clearly fraudulent activities. ”
Not such a big difference. 1st, as I recall there was only one counselor (out of several who were taped) engaged in fraudulent activities and she was fired when planned parenthood management found out about it. In the other undercover stings, there was no improper activity recorded. And, the counselors alerted police about the undercover investigators activities.
and in both cases the undercover reporters were clearly out to get the organizations rather than simply report on what happens.
PS – If the therapist was simply aligning with the patient’s beliefs in the early going then the Bachmann’s could produce some material which indicated that they follow accepted professional practices regarding informed consent and what they actually do in addition to aligning with religious beliefs.
I can imagine saying I recognize that you believe you are heterosexual with a homosexual problem, but I would have to add that the professional consensus is that there is something to the idea of specific sexual orientations. I even show brain scans.
David/Teresa: The Bachmanns can get a fair shake by simply addressing the issues. Does his clinic work with clinic to cure/change homosexual attractions? Do certain therapists do that? They have dodged this by saying they can’t talk about it. Of course this is not true; they can address this in a general way without compromising confidentiality.
If they do this, then what is their model? Is a religiously based approach? Is it just we are all heterosexual and thus should abstain from anything else?
There will be some people who will not like anything they say but for those who might be inclined to be fair, openness would help. As it is, it looks like they have something to hide.
RE: undercover clients. In general, I think it is valuable when one needs to verify illegal activity. In this case, there have been some questions about the legality of the Bachmann clinic. If the undercover investigation discovered Richard Cohen clones, I suspect we might be having a different conversation. Pro-family people should be careful to criticize undercover stealth, since the Planned Parenthood group was discovered doing some very shady things which was discovered in that manner.
If Bachmann’s therapist would have been using the SIT framework, there might still have been some video released but the steak would have been way different than the sizzle.
Thanks for checking in.
Big difference, however with planned parenthood. Illegal and clearly fraudulent activities. (prostitution, child exploitation, illegal entry in the country).
Perhaps a lawyer can check in and show the stark differences which seem clear to me.
Not likely to happen.
Perhaps we can get the transcript of the sessions from Wayne Besen.
Perhaps Warren or David Roberts can encourage Wayne to do so…often this reveals important contexts that either support the allegations further (reinforcing TWO’s credibility) or undermining the allegations.
In either case, I find it sad that Warren does not acknowledge the obvious bind of the therapist being actively deceived by a client, thinking he is aligning with the patient’s beliefs.
The anti-religious attitudes of the APA are well documented in the first 50 years of the profession (to the point of associating many mental illnesses in the DSM III with religious behavior and beliefs) and only recently have they a) defined religiosity as a diversity variable requiring therapeutic attunement for the ethical therapist; and b) acknowledged the importance of respecting one’s religious beliefs when dealing with Same Sex Attractions.
Especially as the word “change” as noted here leads to all sorts of differing interpretations.
Deeply troubling.
I have several questions concerning homosexuals, Michele Bachmann and the upcoming, never ending, Presidential Campaign:
1.) Just because we care here, and some (many?) homosexuals care what Michele and Marcus Bachmann think or speak about this issue … is this really a show-stopper for the vast majority of Americans? Seriously? Unless, of course, the ever-present media, which is a clear and present danger in many areas, makes it so. I don’t think the average Tom, Dick, and Harry … Jane, Sue, and Mary give a tinkers dam about any of this. Homosexuality and Same sex marriage as voting concerns are certainly important; but, they’re not the only issues in the universe. There are other very serious issues that affect more people where they live, personally … like jobs, loss of homes, sons and daughters in never-ending wars, etc.
2.) Can the Bachmann’s ever get a fair shake on any of this? Whatever their ‘real’ views about being homosexual (which I would like to know), they are certainly a family that has values, and lives by those values. They have 5 children … quite unusual for our day and age. They’ve fostered 23 adolescent, pregnant teens. I’d say in many ways they walk-the-walk, as well as talk-the-talk.
Will I vote for her, I can’t say. However, I’d certainly appreciate less politicization around all this, and more unbiased news about her views. Sadly, I’m sure that won’t happen.
PS – If the therapist was simply aligning with the patient’s beliefs in the early going then the Bachmann’s could produce some material which indicated that they follow accepted professional practices regarding informed consent and what they actually do in addition to aligning with religious beliefs.
I can imagine saying I recognize that you believe you are heterosexual with a homosexual problem, but I would have to add that the professional consensus is that there is something to the idea of specific sexual orientations. I even show brain scans.