At risk of raising blood pressure and snark readings to risky levels, I want to say a word about orientation change. I am this morning working on a journal article about the survey of same-sex attracted, heterosexually married people I conducted with the help of Gary Welton between 2008-2010.
We asked loads of questions about attractions, fantasies, behaviors and sexual identity with lots of interesting results. One of the most striking results was the rarity of dramatic orientation change. We asked about opposite sex and same sex sexual attraction at 18, time of first marriage and currently on a scale of 0 to 100. only 4/245 men and 2/59 women rated themselves less than 10/100 at age 18 and then 90+ currently on the opposite sex attraction scale. The numbers did not increase dramatically as I examined a more relaxed assessment of change (e.g., less than 30 at 18 and more than 70 now). Overall, the sample shifted more toward the gay side of the spectrum from ratings of self at 18 and currently, although religious affiliation tended to mute that effect some.
One of the strengths of the survey is that I was able to connect with the largely hidden group of men and women who are SSA and married via word of mouth. I also suveyed people from the Exodus member ministries and the Straight Spouse Network. The sample, while convenience, was drawn from a very wide range of sources.
The title of the post relates to the fact that the marital satisfaction for the SSA partner was pretty high. This makes me think that even a little bit of change in one aspect of sexuality (behavior, fantasies and/or attractions) seems to be enough for a large number of people to redefine themselves in ways that give themselves permission to seek opposite sex relationships.
Stay tuned…
PS – Two men went from completely straight at 18 to completely gay currently.
216 thoughts on “How much change is enough?”
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Isn’t it just as easily observed in life?
Let’s see….., rape, molestation, conditioning etc….
I’m wondering if most people think of someone else or something else while they are having sex. I’m also wondering how many would admit it.
Dr. Throckmorton,
Since the word change, and it’s myriad of meanings is so subjective, is there another way to describe the shift that takes place when one makes a decision that is based on something other than primary and spontaneous desires?
No – it happens all the time.
Yes. We can see that the brain of an alcoholic looks different than the brain of a non-alcohlic. We can see a difference in a drug addicted brain and what it looks like a year later.
Of course many things changed in the person’s life – but the science is in… the brain changes.
Not that I neccesarily agree with this change in the brain but I do strongly believe that changing the physical brain is needed for sexual change to occur.
@ Mary :
I understand your point about ‘physical changes to the brain’! I suppose what really worries me about this ‘change’ business is that the idea that one could become ‘fixated’ on a particular attribute of a person, rather than looking at a person ‘as a whole’.
Just going back to the original post: ‘good’ human relationships are ultimately about ‘love’, and it is the case that all kinds of interesting ‘situations’ can be accommodated when there is genuine mutual respect and care in a relationship. Same-sex attraction happens; whether someone experiencing such attractions can make a marriage (and by ‘marriage’, I mean woman+man – on this point, I am a ‘traditionalist’, and think that the man+man or woman+woman arrangement should be called something else, eg ‘civil partnership’ or ‘civil union’, although there should, in my view, be ‘equivalence’ under civil law with respect to things like taxation and inheritance) depends on the quality of relationship and the love the two ‘high contracting parties’ have for one another. If the ‘love’ is really there, and there has been truthfulness at all points, the marriage will ‘work’ in its own way. After all, just because a heterosexual man marries a woman he loves, it does not mean that he will never find other women attractive – or vice versa.
richard,
I wasn’t saying go in and surgically change the brain. however, it’s been proven that the brain can change by changing the way one thinks.
I understand what you are saying however, for some the homophobia has stopped and the new discussion has already started.
Mary, I am in agreement with Jayhuck in this whole area of neural-plasticity of the brain. Yes, I concur that changes to the brain have been noted. However, what I’m not sure is there’s been sufficient data to say … this ‘thing’ (diet, meditation, even some drugs) … caused … ‘this change’. Did all the surrounding life events, including a myriad of items, stay sufficiently static to preclude them as co-factors in the noted ‘change’.
Is there a ‘one-to-one’ relationship study that looked at singular ‘things’, all other items staying static (as much as possible), before and after? Have these studies (and hypotheses) been peer-reviewed, observable and repeatable by others?
I’m sorry, Mary, if my previous comment came across as less than charitable. I’m always interested in learning and being corrected.
Do we have, by way of question, brain imaging studies of gay men, before conversion therapy, and brain imaging studies of those same men, those who state they are now heterosexual? Yes, we have some imaging studies of str8’s vs. gays … but, even these seem sketchy at best to state categorically the following:
Scan a man’s brain (double-blind study) … researcher, subject, technician unaware of the orientation of subject. Will orientation be readily observable, such as to be listed in a radiologist report?
I suspect what science can do now with the newest imaging equipment is to note anatomical brain changes with aging … but even here, longer time is needed to assess what areas, what diminishment in size (how much), etc. takes place. We haven’t had the time necessary and the equipment to study a 25-year-old and study that same person at 75 years-of-age.
I suspect cell phone use will be the easiest ‘thing’ to study for neural plasticity in brain imaging. Although, funds for this research may be a little slow in coming, as with what occurred in regard to smoking cigarettes.
Anyhow, if I’m way off the beam here, please anyone, jump in and correct me. 🙂
Isn’t ‘changing the physical brain’ rather drastic and risky? It might be that a person’s sexual orientation might change as a result of ‘changing the physical brain’, but what other effects might there be?
to my mind, much of this debate has a whiff of the ‘one-club golfer’ about it. Someone’s sexual orientation is one aspect of that person, and I really don’t believe that it is wise to make ‘changing’ (or trying to change) that aspect something to be considered ‘in isolation’. ‘Change for the better’ is something that involves the whole person, and it might be that focusing on sexual orientation, and making it a kind of ‘be-all-and-end-all’, could be profoundly counterproductive when it comes to ‘the whole person’.
Take a look at this video clip of some gay Ugandans.
http://www.5min.com/Video/Discrimination-Against-Gays-in-Uganda-516997714
In general terms, do these people ‘need’ to ‘change’ (other than, perhaps, to avoid mistreatment by others)? Do they appear ‘unbalanced’ despite all the pressures they are under? Do they strike one as ‘needing therapy’? I don’t think so – they seem perfectly sane to me … especially when one considers the environment in which they live. (At the very start of the clip, we see some people that might use a little ‘therapy’ – although, to be fair to them, they are probably just ‘going with the flow’ and saying what they’ve been told to say.)
Teresa, good point.
Those who choose to value their doctrines of Faith over their orientation instincts are making a great sacrifice. But too often they not only give up their orientation but are either rejected by their church (if open) or are offered (in the closet) a flawed and homophobic place.
It truly is unfair. If one sacrifices orientation for their faith, they certainly deserve to have their church community live up to that sacrifice.
Mary, I’ve read suggestions that this might happen. However, I’m not sure we have proper scientific studies that prove this assertion. It’s conjectured that this is so but it looks to me that so far this is more in the arena of “urban legend”.
Yes, the most vocal proponents of this seem to come from “meditation” practices. However, do we have a link to some serious peer-reviewed studies supporting this hypothesis?
If this proves to be indeed true; are you speculating that “meditation” can be used to ‘change’ orientation?
Nor am I advocating that people go find this sexuality “trigger” , “switch”, “ignition” or whatever you want to call and then change from gay to straight.
I am saying, that some people do change and we don’t know how or why. And some people don’t change and we don’t know how or why.
Warren, this is FASCINATING! I can hardly wait to read it!
I happened to notice that your survey shows that the SSA partner tends to be satisfied. This of course begs the questions (which was previously mentioned by at least one other commenter – Teresa – but I didn’t read all comments, so perhaps by others): what about the OSA partner? Does the study ask about their satisfaction?
Enough for what, Warren?
Enough to say that conversion therapy was helpful?
Enough to say that therapy was successful?
Enough to say the SSA person isn’t harming the spouse?
Enough to say the marriage is successful?
Enough to say that a small number of gays can change orientation?
Enough to say that any gay person can change orientation?
None of the above. I addressed briefly what I thought it might be enough for in the post. Mainly, what I think we demonstrate is that almost no one changes categorically. But a small number seem to change enough so they can see themselves differently. I am not saying that is a good thing, just trying to help address the way things are.
This may be the case for some, however for some people like myself the change and mentioning it again and again is a way of saying that change does happen. And for the rare person out there, someone needs to carry the damn flag! I don’t in anyway want to curb the rights of gays or their families. Some of us do support marriage equality, financial equality etc…
I do have one male friend who was gay, but is now Christian and married to a woman. But having heard homosexual friends or co-workers say things along the lines of, “I prayed to God to take these feelings away but it never happened,” I have had to wonder if that’s a reasonable expectation, and if it isn’t a posture based on desperate fear rather than anything doctrinal/biblical. Is there any other area where we would expect such a thing to be typical, and is this how we consistently see God acting? So many people live with persistent, strong feelings that they cannot or will not act on, and it is a life long fight on moral grounds or for self-preservation. Is same sex attraction really any different from anything else that some people embrace and others reject? I just don’t understand why this information is controversial, because it seems consistent with so many other spheres.
M. Worrell – It is controversial because culture warriors really want gays to change so they can make a case for gay being changeable and not deserving of legal protection. The change paradigm, I hope, will die off soon.
Perhaps "situational heterosexuality" might account for a lot of what you are seeing. In this case, the situation is the person’s deep belief that they, for religious or other reasons, simply cannot live a life that allows them to act on their primary sexual attractions.
I am very interested in this topic because the “at will” ability to change your sexual orientation is the basis of so many people’s justification of denying Equal Civil Rights to gays, lesbians, bi-sexual and transgender citizens. I really would like to understand what you wrote Warren, and I do not understand it at all. This is what I understand you wrote,
You went to Exodus & Straight Spouse Network and got 249 men and 59 women who agreed to participate in your research, I’ll just call them the study subjects. The study subjects were gay or lesbian previously and now are married to a person of the opposite sex. And then after that I don’t get it. What are your trying to say, dumb it down SVP. Say something like at 18 years old the male subject had a 90% sexual attraction to men and 10% towards women. The same male subject at 30 years old and married to an opposite sex spouse now that a 90% sexual attraction to women and only 10% to men?
Really confusing is this part of what you wrote, “We asked about opposite sex and same sex sexual attraction at 18, time of first marriage and currently on a scale of 0 to 100. only 4/245 men and 2/59 women rated themselves less than 10/100 at age 18 and then 90+ currently on the opposite sex attraction scale.”
I don’t have a clue of what you are saying above, not a clue. I understand for your scientific Journal you will no doubt write scientifically and since I am not a trained scientist it will be hard for me to understand, but on your blog if you could dumb it down for the lay people who read your thoughts that would be sincerely appreciated.
StraightGrandmother: SIT stands for “Sexual Identity Therapy,” and you can find a PDF file here that describes it in detail.
But a nutshell description is that SIT rejects “one size fits all” and is open to validating more than one “successful outcome” for a patient/client who feels a conflict between religious values and his/her homosexual feelings.
So for one client, the most “successful outcome” for a conflicted client would be seek a heterosexual marriage with an opposite-sex partner who is fully informed and willing to have a bisexually-identified spouse. For a different client, the ideal outcome would be to live as a self-identified “celibate homosexual”. For yet another client, the ideal outcome would be to leave their current church which teaches that homosexuality is inherently sinful and without positive moral value, and find a different church that encourages openly homosexual people to live in monogamous same-sex relationships or else to be celibate.
Perhaps the only two possibilities that SIT rejects would be either (A) entering into a heterosexual marriage with an opposite-sex partner who has no idea about your homosexual feelings, with the naive expectation that heterosexual marriage plus prayer will automagically “fix” your homosexuality; or (B) just jettisoning the religion, with the naive expectation that Hot Gay Schtupping plus the affection of a same-sex partner plus a circle of accepting friends will automagically “fix” your sense of being in conflict with God.
And the goal of SIT is help a client through the process of introspection needed to identify and prioritize their “genuine” values (which some people may confuse with “what my childhood pastor would’ve approved of”, and other people may confuse with “what the therapist expects to happen”), and to figure which path or outcome is truly the best-compatible with an individual client’s religious value system, personal understanding of God, and overall well-being.
David and Emily,
Perhaps I spoke too generally. I’ll clarify that it has been a positive thing that Exodus has steered clear of the political engagements in New York, Rhode Island, and California. And for that I am appreciative.
I’m not much inclined to insist that Alan change his political views or even that Exodus have no position on some issue. I simply don’t want them trotted out as false evidence and presented in a way that does not reflect the truth.
Ann: The answer to your question might depend on the individual client, I suspect! I mean, some would say that “homosexual feelings” imply a “homosexual orientation,” and some wouldn’t.
However, I would guess that a person who experienced “homosexual feelings” only once in a while probably wouldn’t feel a strong conflict with religious values, and would be unlikely to seek out SIT. So in practice, the SIT client would be someone who has homosexual feelings all the time, but seldom or never has heterosexual feelings, and thus can be said to have a “homosexual orientation” in conflict with the client’s value system.
Hi Throbert,
When you say homosexual feelings, is this one and the same as a homosexual orientation and/or a mindset or something different?
Interesting
Maddeson, what is your definition of a satisfying non gay life? It appears to me that you only consider being married to an opposite gender person as qualifying for “a satisfying non gay life”? Am I wrong?
Ken,
The reason I asked to to promote thinking on the subject. There is situational homosexuality and it does not just occur in prison nor in a forced situation. I would assume some professionals in the pornography idustry are involved in situational homosexuality, prostitution services etc…
Emily,
Situational homosexuality can be a choice but not a preferred choice.
Hazemyth,
Yes, I do know that and think it is very cool and appropriate. Using the word “change” just seems to be so subjective with many meanings that I thought another word might be considered in it’s place.
I guess I’m confused. Isn’t ‘ value congruence’ (or something similar, if I don’t quite have it right) just such another term? It seems to pretty aptly described what your looking to name.
Nonetheless, they are situational homosexuality acts outside of prison. I suspect there are other examples,… like when someone gets really drunk, or really horny and may end up with someone they usually would not choose. Maybe a swingers party or something or a person is in a relationship with someone who wants a threesome …. conditions where if it were really just a rational decision….
Another thought, Warren. Time is a factor that should be taken into account, I think, as a data point; as well, as what the Str8 Spouse’s satisfaction level is. I know this is not necessarily what your research was focused on … but … I can testify from personal experience, that same sex attractions (perhaps also with opposite sex attractions) can be ‘asleep’ for awhile due to life’s circumstances; and, suddenly erupt with a vengeance when life altering events occur.
The Straight Spouse Network has way too many 20 – 30 year marriages breaking up over this opposite orientation marriage deal. Over and over, you’ll hear the str8 spouse, no matter the gender, knowing something was wrong, feeling it was their fault for the emotional detachment, that they were the cause of the problems, etc., etc. Also, the satisfaction from a gay perspective may be a whole different set of variables, than the str8 perspective satisfaction variables.
Thanks much I was not expecting such a quick response. I will wait for the report to show up on the internet although I am not surprised by the results. Especially the people from Exodus and Straight Spouse Network, these are people who were really motivated to change or they would not have joined these organizations. Change is rare, the most you can do is like Chambers at Exodus said, learn to suppress it, but you don’t ever really change your natural sexual orientation.
And of course what you don’t have are the millions of people who have tried and failed to change their sexual orientation and are not in an opposite sex marriage. In order to get those 300 people who are living outside their natural sexual orientation there are millions who tried couldn’t even make it that far. Politically, for those few 300 who are living contrary to their natural sexual orientation, millions who can’t are made to suffer. Slap! No Civil Rights for you, try harder be one of those 300. So those 4 men out of 259 who went from 100% gay to 90% hetros, really the true statistic is more like 4 in a million because you never counted the drop outs who never made it into your study.
Sorry, let me try again.
Here is the question from the survey – On a scale of 0 to 100, where 100 is completely heterosexual and 0 is not at all heterosexual, please rate your degree of sexual desire for members of the opposite sex in general.
We asked the subjects to rate themselves at age 18, time of first marriage and now. Only 4 men out of 245 men and 2 of 59 women said they had gone from being 10 or less percent heterosexual at 18 to 90+% hetero now. In other words, very very few people changed orientation during the course of their lives thus far. Overall, there was very little movement on the part of the gay and bisexual groups, by far the largest groups of people in this study.
It was not a study of change per se. We did not ask people to marry and then see if change occured. We wanted to understand the sexuality of same sex attracted people who chose to marry heterosexually. In doing so, we asked questions about change over time to see if there was any. And on average the group got gayer.
I can’t say much more because I need to save the real meat of it until we submit it and get it published. However, the way to understand this is that sexual orientation does not change much even among people who marry heterosexually. If there is a group that one might expect to see change in if it occured, I would guess it is that one.
Warren, your research approach is somewhat unique in this area, isn’t it? Actually, a rather welcome look from a different perspective on the fuzzy concept of ‘change’. It certainly substantiates prior study results, in the fact of the rarity of male change; but, what’s quite surprising to me is the uncommonness of female change … 3.3%. My thoughts, based on some readings of female change, was that you would have had higher numbers than the 2 out of 59. At least, that’s the word-of-mouth stuff that’s out there. Twice as high as men; but, both quite, quite uncommon.
StraightGrandmother# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 11:51 am
“I don’t have a clue of what you are saying above, not a clue.”
Actually, it was a bit unclear (even to someone who reads a lot of papers 🙂 )
Warren, is your scale set up as:
0 – NO opposite sex attraction
100 – exclusively opposite sex attraction
And will the survey questions/data be publicly available?
William,
Situational homosexuality does not only occur in prisons but does appear in other parts of life.
as far as I can see, rape and molestation are one-sided and having nothing to do with the victim’s sexual desires OR orientation.
Sorry, Mary, that’s just a bit too terse to be readily understandable. Please could you elucidate?
Mary# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 3:01 pm
“Nonetheless, they are situational homosexuality acts outside of prison.”
No one has said there aren’t Mary. YOU were the one who asked if there cases of situational homosexuality. I gave you an example of it. If you already knew of such cases, why did you ask?
Well I was not going to show my ignorance when Timothy Kincaid wrote about SIT, but now that Warren is talking about it, for the rest of us who don’t know, can you kindly tell us what SIT is?
Throbert and Frank, that sounds reasonable (and a bit holier-than-thou) except that I think the urge to procreate could be as considerable. And surely among the remaining 3.5 billion people a soul mate might be findable? Or stated differently: I disagree.
Warren, I presume you will be including information on basic point changes? I hypothesize that a change as little as 10-20 points could support a satisfying non gay life.
There are those of us who are gay and choose never to change. To annihilate the ability to fall in love with a member of the same sex for me would be to deny its the significance of that love in my life. It sustained me when my Catholic faith led me to suicidal depression.
To those Christians who see reorientation as a legitimate answer to a problem, isn’t extorting a renunciation of faith from a Christian no less or more legitimate?
Timothy, they’ve moved away but not that much. And I doubt having Jeff Buchanan in an administrative position will help things.
I didn’t claim to know if they’ve changed or not and how. I just noted that organizations and people can change over the course of 8 years (since you indicated following NARTH until 2003 but are still critical of them in 2011).
My knowledge of NARTH is based on what I have read. As a non-religious person, NARTH’s positions match up better with my own than some of the other organizations.
Maddeson – Why did you change your name?
Also, you have more IP Addresses than I can shake a moderated status at.
Next you will chose the name Martyr. If you don’t want to be silenced then quit playing games with your names and IP addresses. You are not getting singled out because you express a view I disagree with but because of your strange behavior.
I’m confused.
Is the Commenter Madison … the same as the Commenter Maddeson?
This still makes this a guess and Maybe you are only talking about men?
David,
It can be incredibly difficult and I say this from some experience having been one of these “others” at one point in my life.
thank you for saying as much David – I admire them too 🙂
Continuing in this vein:
Which makes it incredibly difficult to return to one’s home affirmed as a “brother or sister in Christ” … the Faith that means so much to them … more than their orientation struggles.
To do all this, often in the closet, and be generous and loving in spite of what others think and say …
Who’s the real Christian here?
“Father forgive us, for we know not what we do.”
Who said I am ‘bitter’? (Anyway, my comment above was not about ‘me’.) ‘Bitterness’ doesn’t come into it – it’s about common decency, to which homophobia is an affront.
My point in the context of this thread is that we cannot properly evaluate the possibility and desirability of ‘change’ against the kind of homophobic ‘background noise’ produced by some advocates (though not you, of course) of ‘change’, so to me it stands to reason that the efficacy of such a discussion would be enhanced by reducing homophobia.
For someone like myself who had unwanted SSA, I could not wait for the world to change before taking steps myself.
I understand your bitterness but it is too much of a burden to stop myself from growing while waiting for others to see my point of view.
I agree…. just ain’t gonna wait for the world to change before I start.
I think a basic question to ask anyone who is married to someone of the opposite sex (gender) and yet still understands themselves as homosexually oriented, is this – “Are you happy in / with this marriage?” Wouldn’t that transcend or supercede any other issue that other people might have with this marriage?
Ann:
I think Dr. Throckmorton refers to this as value congruence.
Dr. Throckmorton,
Did you include the question of happiness and/or contentment in these marriages as part of your survey or just change/sexual/attraction issues?
Wha cares about convincing the gay community. What about the people who are uncomfortable with their sexuality – wouldn’t this be good information?
It’s not situational homosexuality if one of the people involved doesn’t want it to happen. Situational homosexuality occurs in prisons, for example, precisely because of the lack of access to opposite sex partners. But even then, it’s not necessarily truly homosexual activity, as during that time the most important sex organ – the brain – imagines itself to be in a heterosexual encounter.
When no other options are available, situational sexual activity can occur. That is, when a homosexual religious person feels they have NO CHOICE but to be involved with someone of the opposite sex; or a heterosexual prisoner doesn’t have access to his girlfriend on the outside.
Warren,
Change is rare, and it can even go from straight to gay. 🙂
We don’t know the mechanism for change.
Did you assess for happiness in the couples assessed (eg. mental illness).
Are the self-reports for marital happiness lower than other special populations (such as, ADHD in one spouse, Depression in one spouse, Disability in one spouse)?
Should sexual behavior be moderated by the frontal lobes and should we form relationships with people who are likely to create healthy expressions of sexuality?…he he. Mischief ahead.
@ Teresa
Is the Commenter Madison … the same as the Commenter Maddeson?
Probably. One thing is obvious: Madison is the same person as Preston, who was barred from this blog a few months ago.
Madison/Maddeson has been put on moderated status. I assume the two “Maddesons” are the same since they share the same IP Address at various times. I have no idea if Madison is really preston but the tone is beginning to sound the same.
For reasons I won’t share publicly, I am beginning to think Madison/Maddeson/preston is a NARTH or Scott Lively plant.
Madison, “If someone gets to bisexual, they should be able to live a satisfying non gay life, no?
That’s why only a 20 or so point change would be sufficient. I hope Warren includes that in the final report.”
StraightGrandmother- Madison I don’t think so. I am heterosexual, 100% no question. But from comments I have read from bi-sexuals they are attracted to “people” and the sex of the person doesn’t matter. Doesn’t it make sense that a bi-sexual person can be in love with a person of their same sex and the option of rejecting that love and finding a lesser love in an opposite sex person may not prove very satisfying to them. Wouldn’t you always long for that one true love, the one you rejected with the only reason that they are of the same sex?
Straightgrandmother – I certainly will go where the evidence leads.
David…
I was considering the idea that these people may come to feel their ‘supposed bisexuality’ may be enough to allow marriage. The bomb coming when they find it is likely not. Thus my use of the word “confuse.”
Look it up.
I’m sorry to be flippant but this surely sounds elementary. If chemical changes occur in the brain then a brain change has occurred. Chemical changes over a long period of time like the accumulation of certain protiens will effect your brain in an obvious way.
Warren
I’m not sure that is a relevant question and may even be contrary to your premises.
Asking how much change is enough presumes that some change is necessary. But if I understand SIT correctly, change is beside the point; the issue is living life according to one’s values. Implying that there is some measure of change that is “enough” sends the message that prioritizing values is all fine and good… but you still need change in orientation. Or, at least, a little bit of change.
And as over time the participants, on average, became “more gay”, this would not hold much promise for those who wish to prioritize their marriage and family over their own instincts or sexual completeness. It might even suggest that however content they and their spouse might be, however successfully they had constructed their world to fit their goals, they had failed.
(And, by the way, I am looking forward to this. Fascinating, as always.)
@Timothy You understand SIT correctly. The question is provocative but does not indicate any change in my views as the result of the study. If anything, my views of change have been solidified somewhat because of it. I expected more Exodus respondents to say they had changed a lot. However, they didn’t. Even 3 of the 4 who said they changed dramatically said that they had sexual fantasies about their spouses only rarely. A case could be made that those three went from gay to near asexual, leaving one out of 245 who described anything like the kind of change that I was told was common went I came into this arena and that you might still think is common if you read certain websites.
Me too!
Mary,
An observation: although anti-gay activists love to trot out ex-gays as a justification for antagonistic legislation, and although for a while the ex-gay leadership played along with this, it seems to me that many individual ex-gay people have no desire whatsoever to harm the lives, freedoms, or rights of their former (or perhaps still current) friends.
I’m happy that Exodus has moved away from this (and give Alan due credit).
Maybe, Warren, you can tell these people and Bachmann that they have a few things wrong:
http://www.thefamilyleader.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/themarriagevow.final_.7.7.111.pdf
Maybe, Warren, you can tell these people and Bachmann that they have a few things wrong:
http://www.thefamilyleader.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/themarriagevow.final_.7.7.111.pdf
And I think that brain change is a scarey thing for many to look at. It brings into all sorts of questions as to who we are, what are our religious experiences about, can people be manipulated or controlled by another? Scarey things.
I think for gay people the thought of changing sexuality is scarey, too. I mean, it’s a main component of one’s personhood. Or at least we make it so in this society. And I fear that if changing the brain to change sexuality were available at this time… many would misuse the knowledge.
I did not. I do say it is a possibility.
Also…. the science is there to say that we can change our brains. We usually notice this when a person is impacted with an injury and they somehow recover when they shouldn’t.
I don’t think it is far off to say that sexuality is in the brain.
I think I stated quite clearly that brain changes have been observed in some instances; e.g., brain changes between young and old, etc.
I do think, however, you really came into this discussion by intimating that what we know currently by studied post-mortems or imaging studies could be concluded as evidence that ‘sexuality changes’ were already available evidentially. I think I reasoned quite well in finding your statement about the known science as applying to your individual case.
However, from the beginning of this, I simply asked to be shown some links that prove your assertion, in this case … sexual re-orientation or meditation … not abusive drug addiction, stroke, aging, etc. Maybe’s and “it is a possibility” aren’t quite what I was looking for, however.
I believe, however, we’ve reached agreement on this.
Are you saying that you cannot find anywhere that brain changes occur and so do behavioral along with likes, dislikes etc….???
Anywhere????? C’mon! I’m not just talking about sexuality.
Also, I don’t think Narth people really know much about the brain. Their focus is too simplistic and narrow for me.
All I am saying is that if sexuality is in the brain and we know that the brain can change …. then there it is.
As far Narth and any other organization goes …. who cares what they think, advocate, or embrace. What’s important is to find the real truth.
As noted above…. I am not advocating that someone go and try to be straight if they don’t want to nor desire to. In fact, why be concerned?
I am saying, that I have changed and I do think differently and I have aged and maybe my brain has also changed, too. If that is the case, and science isn’t quite there yet, then that is the case. It IS a possiblity.
Again, I am not advocating people try to change their sexuality or change anything about themselves unless they so desire.
Cut to the chase, on this, Mary, simplistically, many chemicals may cross the blood-brain barrier: that’s fairly elementary. Eating an orange changes the body’s chemistry, so what? All I’m saying, and what I think you’ve been implying (perhaps, not) is that sexual re-orientation changes the brain. A ‘gay’ brain (in some fashion: hormonal, anatomical, neurological) looks different both at the micro as well as the macro level, than the same brain that is now ‘str8’. OK, I’ll agree. All I want is the scientific proof. Where’s the study? Are there hormonal changes that have occurred, what, when, where … neurological studies to verify that re-orientation has actually occurred, anatomical ones as well.
If one exists, I suspect NARTH adherents would be gladly pointing that out, as to proof of their statements. If this is so elementary, I haven’t find any such info. Because I haven’t found it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
My main contention is that most of the science in the neural plasticity arena is still in its adolescence. Speculation abounds, hypotheses, also. We don’t even know, what we don’t know, most times.
Certainly, I’ve read some recent statements concerning that ‘meditation’ changes the brain. Much of the ‘science’ in the main stream media is not altogether credible, or reported in an accurate fashion.
Has credible evidence been forthcoming that would be able to accurately differentiate a brain of a person that meditates from one that doesn’t?
Please understand, I’m not saying it’s not possible … in the future. Are we there, yet?
Nor am I advocating that people go find this sexuality “trigger” , “switch”, “ignition” or whatever you want to call and then change from gay to straight.
I am saying, that some people do change and we don’t know how or why. And some people don’t change and we don’t know how or why.
Teresa,
Behavior is guided by the brain – I am convinced. Anyhow, there are numerous stories of people who lose a portion of the brain and are able to re-train another portion to manage the skills of language and mobility. And there is A LOT to study in this field. It is enormous.
Just because this is an emerging science does not credit it less to say that the brain can change and thus so do we.
I know in our pro-eugenic society that this is scarey to think about. I would never want to see a non-compliant person manipulated through brain change to do something they did not initiate themselves in their previous state.
And if sexuality is found in the brain, then I am thinking that it can be changed. I don’t where or how ….
Look it up.
I’m sorry to be flippant but this surely sounds elementary. If chemical changes occur in the brain then a brain change has occurred. Chemical changes over a long period of time like the accumulation of certain protiens will effect your brain in an obvious way.
And I think that brain change is a scarey thing for many to look at. It brings into all sorts of questions as to who we are, what are our religious experiences about, can people be manipulated or controlled by another? Scarey things.
I think for gay people the thought of changing sexuality is scarey, too. I mean, it’s a main component of one’s personhood. Or at least we make it so in this society. And I fear that if changing the brain to change sexuality were available at this time… many would misuse the knowledge.
I did not. I do say it is a possibility.
Also…. the science is there to say that we can change our brains. We usually notice this when a person is impacted with an injury and they somehow recover when they shouldn’t.
I don’t think it is far off to say that sexuality is in the brain.
I think I stated quite clearly that brain changes have been observed in some instances; e.g., brain changes between young and old, etc.
I do think, however, you really came into this discussion by intimating that what we know currently by studied post-mortems or imaging studies could be concluded as evidence that ‘sexuality changes’ were already available evidentially. I think I reasoned quite well in finding your statement about the known science as applying to your individual case.
However, from the beginning of this, I simply asked to be shown some links that prove your assertion, in this case … sexual re-orientation or meditation … not abusive drug addiction, stroke, aging, etc. Maybe’s and “it is a possibility” aren’t quite what I was looking for, however.
I believe, however, we’ve reached agreement on this.
Are you saying that you cannot find anywhere that brain changes occur and so do behavioral along with likes, dislikes etc….???
Anywhere????? C’mon! I’m not just talking about sexuality.
Also, I don’t think Narth people really know much about the brain. Their focus is too simplistic and narrow for me.
All I am saying is that if sexuality is in the brain and we know that the brain can change …. then there it is.
As far Narth and any other organization goes …. who cares what they think, advocate, or embrace. What’s important is to find the real truth.
As noted above…. I am not advocating that someone go and try to be straight if they don’t want to nor desire to. In fact, why be concerned?
I am saying, that I have changed and I do think differently and I have aged and maybe my brain has also changed, too. If that is the case, and science isn’t quite there yet, then that is the case. It IS a possiblity.
Again, I am not advocating people try to change their sexuality or change anything about themselves unless they so desire.
Mary, I know the brain changes, even with age. That’s not what my original intent was directed at. I know we can see the difference between a 20-year-old brain and a 70-year-old brain … relatively recently by imaging, I might add. So, I have no argument with that, at all.
However, the science is still to new to state with much certitude what causes what … at least, in my opinion. Addictive drug use changes to the brain … agreed … with the latest imaging equipment … and, of course, with post-mortem studies. Pathology has long been able to differentiate anatomical differences in brains … old brains vs. younger brains … etc. ‘Injured’ brains (through physical or drug-induced injury) vs. non-injured brains, etc.
I guess my comment revolves around more of the ‘micro’ changes occurring … chemical, neural plasticity … vs. the ‘macro’ changes that we’ve known about for a long time through autopsy, and now through imaging.
A sample question: is the brain of a person that meditates different from one that doesn’t? I think there may be accumulating evidence that TV viewing alters the brain. So to, video games, it seems. The evidence right now seems more behavior based, than physiological.
Anyway, the news that there are differences in brains is not new. That’s true, Mary. What I’m getting at … is how much do we actually know … accurately predict and why ‘such and such’ causes ‘this’.
Perhaps, none of this makes much sense. So, I’ll let it rest for now. My old brain is tired. 🙂
Cut to the chase, on this, Mary, simplistically, many chemicals may cross the blood-brain barrier: that’s fairly elementary. Eating an orange changes the body’s chemistry, so what? All I’m saying, and what I think you’ve been implying (perhaps, not) is that sexual re-orientation changes the brain. A ‘gay’ brain (in some fashion: hormonal, anatomical, neurological) looks different both at the micro as well as the macro level, than the same brain that is now ‘str8’. OK, I’ll agree. All I want is the scientific proof. Where’s the study? Are there hormonal changes that have occurred, what, when, where … neurological studies to verify that re-orientation has actually occurred, anatomical ones as well.
If one exists, I suspect NARTH adherents would be gladly pointing that out, as to proof of their statements. If this is so elementary, I haven’t find any such info. Because I haven’t found it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
My main contention is that most of the science in the neural plasticity arena is still in its adolescence. Speculation abounds, hypotheses, also. We don’t even know, what we don’t know, most times.
Certainly, I’ve read some recent statements concerning that ‘meditation’ changes the brain. Much of the ‘science’ in the main stream media is not altogether credible, or reported in an accurate fashion.
Has credible evidence been forthcoming that would be able to accurately differentiate a brain of a person that meditates from one that doesn’t?
Please understand, I’m not saying it’s not possible … in the future. Are we there, yet?
Teresa,
Behavior is guided by the brain – I am convinced. Anyhow, there are numerous stories of people who lose a portion of the brain and are able to re-train another portion to manage the skills of language and mobility. And there is A LOT to study in this field. It is enormous.
Just because this is an emerging science does not credit it less to say that the brain can change and thus so do we.
I know in our pro-eugenic society that this is scarey to think about. I would never want to see a non-compliant person manipulated through brain change to do something they did not initiate themselves in their previous state.
And if sexuality is found in the brain, then I am thinking that it can be changed. I don’t where or how ….
And this change is heavily noted in brains that transform from an addicted state to a non-addicted state.
Sorry,,, but I am floored that this is news to anyone. Just look it up anywhere.
Yes. We can see that the brain of an alcoholic looks different than the brain of a non-alcohlic. We can see a difference in a drug addicted brain and what it looks like a year later.
Of course many things changed in the person’s life – but the science is in… the brain changes.
Mary, I am in agreement with Jayhuck in this whole area of neural-plasticity of the brain. Yes, I concur that changes to the brain have been noted. However, what I’m not sure is there’s been sufficient data to say … this ‘thing’ (diet, meditation, even some drugs) … caused … ‘this change’. Did all the surrounding life events, including a myriad of items, stay sufficiently static to preclude them as co-factors in the noted ‘change’.
Is there a ‘one-to-one’ relationship study that looked at singular ‘things’, all other items staying static (as much as possible), before and after? Have these studies (and hypotheses) been peer-reviewed, observable and repeatable by others?
I’m sorry, Mary, if my previous comment came across as less than charitable. I’m always interested in learning and being corrected.
Do we have, by way of question, brain imaging studies of gay men, before conversion therapy, and brain imaging studies of those same men, those who state they are now heterosexual? Yes, we have some imaging studies of str8’s vs. gays … but, even these seem sketchy at best to state categorically the following:
Scan a man’s brain (double-blind study) … researcher, subject, technician unaware of the orientation of subject. Will orientation be readily observable, such as to be listed in a radiologist report?
I suspect what science can do now with the newest imaging equipment is to note anatomical brain changes with aging … but even here, longer time is needed to assess what areas, what diminishment in size (how much), etc. takes place. We haven’t had the time necessary and the equipment to study a 25-year-old and study that same person at 75 years-of-age.
I suspect cell phone use will be the easiest ‘thing’ to study for neural plasticity in brain imaging. Although, funds for this research may be a little slow in coming, as with what occurred in regard to smoking cigarettes.
Anyhow, if I’m way off the beam here, please anyone, jump in and correct me. 🙂
Mary, I know the brain changes, even with age. That’s not what my original intent was directed at. I know we can see the difference between a 20-year-old brain and a 70-year-old brain … relatively recently by imaging, I might add. So, I have no argument with that, at all.
However, the science is still to new to state with much certitude what causes what … at least, in my opinion. Addictive drug use changes to the brain … agreed … with the latest imaging equipment … and, of course, with post-mortem studies. Pathology has long been able to differentiate anatomical differences in brains … old brains vs. younger brains … etc. ‘Injured’ brains (through physical or drug-induced injury) vs. non-injured brains, etc.
I guess my comment revolves around more of the ‘micro’ changes occurring … chemical, neural plasticity … vs. the ‘macro’ changes that we’ve known about for a long time through autopsy, and now through imaging.
A sample question: is the brain of a person that meditates different from one that doesn’t? I think there may be accumulating evidence that TV viewing alters the brain. So to, video games, it seems. The evidence right now seems more behavior based, than physiological.
Anyway, the news that there are differences in brains is not new. That’s true, Mary. What I’m getting at … is how much do we actually know … accurately predict and why ‘such and such’ causes ‘this’.
Perhaps, none of this makes much sense. So, I’ll let it rest for now. My old brain is tired. 🙂
And this change is heavily noted in brains that transform from an addicted state to a non-addicted state.
Sorry,,, but I am floored that this is news to anyone. Just look it up anywhere.
I think fixated on a certain atrribute is not a good approach to anything. And perhaps that’s where people make mistakes. A whole person is a whole person which includes A LOT of brain, life experiences, neural connections, influences etc….
Seriously? Looking at brain scans of people on drugs changes the brain. Scans of people who have changed their diet have changed their brains. Urban legend? Seriously? I’m sorry, but this is science.
I think fixated on a certain atrribute is not a good approach to anything. And perhaps that’s where people make mistakes. A whole person is a whole person which includes A LOT of brain, life experiences, neural connections, influences etc….
Seriously? Looking at brain scans of people on drugs changes the brain. Scans of people who have changed their diet have changed their brains. Urban legend? Seriously? I’m sorry, but this is science.
Mary,
We know the brain is elastic and changes over time, but we don’t know how or why and if it even impacts such things like orientation. The science surrounding this is still very young 🙂
@ Mary :
I understand your point about ‘physical changes to the brain’! I suppose what really worries me about this ‘change’ business is that the idea that one could become ‘fixated’ on a particular attribute of a person, rather than looking at a person ‘as a whole’.
Just going back to the original post: ‘good’ human relationships are ultimately about ‘love’, and it is the case that all kinds of interesting ‘situations’ can be accommodated when there is genuine mutual respect and care in a relationship. Same-sex attraction happens; whether someone experiencing such attractions can make a marriage (and by ‘marriage’, I mean woman+man – on this point, I am a ‘traditionalist’, and think that the man+man or woman+woman arrangement should be called something else, eg ‘civil partnership’ or ‘civil union’, although there should, in my view, be ‘equivalence’ under civil law with respect to things like taxation and inheritance) depends on the quality of relationship and the love the two ‘high contracting parties’ have for one another. If the ‘love’ is really there, and there has been truthfulness at all points, the marriage will ‘work’ in its own way. After all, just because a heterosexual man marries a woman he loves, it does not mean that he will never find other women attractive – or vice versa.
Mary, I’ve read suggestions that this might happen. However, I’m not sure we have proper scientific studies that prove this assertion. It’s conjectured that this is so but it looks to me that so far this is more in the arena of “urban legend”.
Yes, the most vocal proponents of this seem to come from “meditation” practices. However, do we have a link to some serious peer-reviewed studies supporting this hypothesis?
If this proves to be indeed true; are you speculating that “meditation” can be used to ‘change’ orientation?
Mary,
We know the brain is elastic and changes over time, but we don’t know how or why and if it even impacts such things like orientation. The science surrounding this is still very young 🙂
No – it happens all the time.
richard,
I wasn’t saying go in and surgically change the brain. however, it’s been proven that the brain can change by changing the way one thinks.
Warren, this is FASCINATING! I can hardly wait to read it!
I happened to notice that your survey shows that the SSA partner tends to be satisfied. This of course begs the questions (which was previously mentioned by at least one other commenter – Teresa – but I didn’t read all comments, so perhaps by others): what about the OSA partner? Does the study ask about their satisfaction?
Isn’t ‘changing the physical brain’ rather drastic and risky? It might be that a person’s sexual orientation might change as a result of ‘changing the physical brain’, but what other effects might there be?
to my mind, much of this debate has a whiff of the ‘one-club golfer’ about it. Someone’s sexual orientation is one aspect of that person, and I really don’t believe that it is wise to make ‘changing’ (or trying to change) that aspect something to be considered ‘in isolation’. ‘Change for the better’ is something that involves the whole person, and it might be that focusing on sexual orientation, and making it a kind of ‘be-all-and-end-all’, could be profoundly counterproductive when it comes to ‘the whole person’.
Take a look at this video clip of some gay Ugandans.
http://www.5min.com/Video/Discrimination-Against-Gays-in-Uganda-516997714
In general terms, do these people ‘need’ to ‘change’ (other than, perhaps, to avoid mistreatment by others)? Do they appear ‘unbalanced’ despite all the pressures they are under? Do they strike one as ‘needing therapy’? I don’t think so – they seem perfectly sane to me … especially when one considers the environment in which they live. (At the very start of the clip, we see some people that might use a little ‘therapy’ – although, to be fair to them, they are probably just ‘going with the flow’ and saying what they’ve been told to say.)
Not that I neccesarily agree with this change in the brain but I do strongly believe that changing the physical brain is needed for sexual change to occur.
These results are hardly surprising. The amygdala, the part of the brain which gives emotions the tone of the memory/stimuli, is already developed in the first years of life and ready to kick into gear. This means that events in the first years of life can impact a child’s future emotional reactivity without even being associated with an explicit memory (because the hippocampus which encodes explicit memories, such as faces associated with affect, develops at a slower rate).
So, these results that you are getting in an adult sample could be caused by anything, including parental and between-siblings relations (sister-brother competitions for affection and so on). Both parents have a genetic contribution which is reflected in their kids’ emotional reactivity: the allelic contributions which go into building the neural networks of the parents’ amygdalae will also be found in their children’s emotional brains, but in different allelic combinations. I expect we’re going to find some surprising facts about how these pathways work. An example would be that a mother’s genetics for aggression would be protective for the son, but the additive effect of parental contributions for stress reactivity would be detrimental for him. Similarly, the mother’s genetics for aggression would be detrimental for the daughter, but the additive effects for stress reactivity from their parents would be beneficial for her. The parental balance of these genetic contributions could also determine what type of power balance will emerge in the family (who is the principal punisher, who is the principal protector, who is the main supporter for skill development, etc).
One of the many possible pathways could be this: Children who are future low-dimorphic adults start feeling fearful around their peers and gravitate around the less active and threatening kids (sometimes opposite-sex kids), but also connect more strongly with the most affectionate parent (as a protective, soothing, way of coping with threats). Most of the times this parent is the mother, but not always, which might explain why the correlations on the sex of the parents are not uniform. (Word of caution: the same parent can be the source of both protection and punishment, so the emotional conditioning which is the result of interacting with the same parent can be double-edged.) Neurotics will be more sensitive to anticipation of social threats (including punishment), so they will feel the need to sooth the hurt by doing what pleases the parent more, and thus develop what psychoanalysts call false selves. This is important for the adult outcomes, because the false self construction will, most likely, lead to narcissistic and borderline emotional types, who get higher rewards from secretive or norm-breaking identities.
The brain studies I’ve seen until now show that neurotics have a high self-referential emotional processing, which means that emotional stimuli can make them feel fear even though there are no harmful intentions directed at them. At the same time they also show more nucleus accumbens activation, a region of the brain which is part of the reward circuitry (involved in addiction). Neuroticism and harm avoidance (HA) also predict activation of the insula (see for instance http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12948701), which determine risk-taking behaviours. Here’s where I would place my bet, a tentative conjecture. I think when the stimuli are related to human bonding, the higher arousal potential of neuroticism will modulate approach-withdraw dynamics differently than in those who are low in neuroticism and HA. Consequentially, the emotional brain will interpret higher arousal as sexually relevant when the source of stimuli looks more dominant (for both men and women), because neurotics’ high self-referential processing makes them more likely to simulate dominant-looking types in their insula. This would also mean that neurotics would be more likely, in certain contexts, to be attracted to dominant women, but also to women who look more vulnerable than themselves. The reverse pattern should be found for the more aggressive women, who would be more attracted to men who look less dominant (low-dimorphic, cognizant types).
Changing these patterns would involve, in my view, changing the entire connectivity and reactivity potential to emotional stimuli in the amygdala and the relevant outputs (anterior cingulate cortex, insula and the reward-related areas), but some degree of shifts in approach-withdraw patterns to a particular sex should be possible with therapeutic intervention, depending on each case. It’s also important to remind, as others commenters have already said, that this is not an all-or-nothing issue, but rather a change in potential of attraction to each sex.
These results are hardly surprising. The amygdala, the part of the brain which gives emotions the tone of the memory/stimuli, is already developed in the first years of life and ready to kick into gear. This means that events in the first years of life can impact a child’s future emotional reactivity without even being associated with an explicit memory (because the hippocampus which encodes explicit memories, such as faces associated with affect, develops at a slower rate).
So, these results that you are getting in an adult sample could be caused by anything, including parental and between-siblings relations (sister-brother competitions for affection and so on). Both parents have a genetic contribution which is reflected in their kids’ emotional reactivity: the allelic contributions which go into building the neural networks of the parents’ amygdalae will also be found in their children’s emotional brains, but in different allelic combinations. I expect we’re going to find some surprising facts about how these pathways work. An example would be that a mother’s genetics for aggression would be protective for the son, but the additive effect of parental contributions for stress reactivity would be detrimental for him. Similarly, the mother’s genetics for aggression would be detrimental for the daughter, but the additive effects for stress reactivity from their parents would be beneficial for her. The parental balance of these genetic contributions could also determine what type of power balance will emerge in the family (who is the principal punisher, who is the principal protector, who is the main supporter for skill development, etc).
One of the many possible pathways could be this: Children who are future low-dimorphic adults start feeling fearful around their peers and gravitate around the less active and threatening kids (sometimes opposite-sex kids), but also connect more strongly with the most affectionate parent (as a protective, soothing, way of coping with threats). Most of the times this parent is the mother, but not always, which might explain why the correlations on the sex of the parents are not uniform. (Word of caution: the same parent can be the source of both protection and punishment, so the emotional conditioning which is the result of interacting with the same parent can be double-edged.) Neurotics will be more sensitive to anticipation of social threats (including punishment), so they will feel the need to sooth the hurt by doing what pleases the parent more, and thus develop what psychoanalysts call false selves. This is important for the adult outcomes, because the false self construction will, most likely, lead to narcissistic and borderline emotional types, who get higher rewards from secretive or norm-breaking identities.
The brain studies I’ve seen until now show that neurotics have a high self-referential emotional processing, which means that emotional stimuli can make them feel fear even though there are no harmful intentions directed at them. At the same time they also show more nucleus accumbens activation, a region of the brain which is part of the reward circuitry (involved in addiction). Neuroticism and harm avoidance (HA) also predict activation of the insula (see for instance http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12948701), which determine risk-taking behaviours. Here’s where I would place my bet, a tentative conjecture. I think when the stimuli are related to human bonding, the higher arousal potential of neuroticism will modulate approach-withdraw dynamics differently than in those who are low in neuroticism and HA. Consequentially, the emotional brain will interpret higher arousal as sexually relevant when the source of stimuli looks more dominant (for both men and women), because neurotics’ high self-referential processing makes them more likely to simulate dominant-looking types in their insula. This would also mean that neurotics would be more likely, in certain contexts, to be attracted to dominant women, but also to women who look more vulnerable than themselves. The reverse pattern should be found for the more aggressive women, who would be more attracted to men who look less dominant (low-dimorphic, cognizant types).
Changing these patterns would involve, in my view, changing the entire connectivity and reactivity potential to emotional stimuli in the amygdala and the relevant outputs (anterior cingulate cortex, insula and the reward-related areas), but some degree of shifts in approach-withdraw patterns to a particular sex should be possible with therapeutic intervention, depending on each case. It’s also important to remind, as others commenters have already said, that this is not an all-or-nothing issue, but rather a change in potential of attraction to each sex.
Teresa, good point.
Those who choose to value their doctrines of Faith over their orientation instincts are making a great sacrifice. But too often they not only give up their orientation but are either rejected by their church (if open) or are offered (in the closet) a flawed and homophobic place.
It truly is unfair. If one sacrifices orientation for their faith, they certainly deserve to have their church community live up to that sacrifice.
I’m going to give a shout=out and some praise to a man who spends far too much of his time and energy opposing my civil equality. But Dr. Al Mohler rightly noted that the SBC has been lacking love (okay, really, they’ve been pretty hateful at times). And he is calling the church (parts of which are fiercely resisting) to stop with the hate. And I believe that (slowly) the SBC will come to view gay people and “the homosexual lifestyle” with no more animus than they do cohabiting heterosexuals or Catholics.
And I can live with that. Mohler and the SBC don’t have to agree with my theology. And they don’t have to share my political views. But if they drop the homophobia that hurts both gay people AND baptists (love is so liberating), then we can find a common ground on which to debate or disagree.
Continuing in this vein:
Which makes it incredibly difficult to return to one’s home affirmed as a “brother or sister in Christ” … the Faith that means so much to them … more than their orientation struggles.
To do all this, often in the closet, and be generous and loving in spite of what others think and say …
Who’s the real Christian here?
“Father forgive us, for we know not what we do.”
David,
It can be incredibly difficult and I say this from some experience having been one of these “others” at one point in my life.
thank you for saying as much David – I admire them too 🙂
This is very interesting…especially as Warren has exposed, from a Christian perspective, the distorted and disgusting styles used by Bahati, Lively others to describe GLBT members.
As these liars are prominent and authoritative in some Christian communities it is hard for those who struggle with unwanted SSA to not feel disgust for themselves. We have not loved these people well or deeply, not only because of their “otherness” or Biblical prohibitions, but because of this poison of disgust and demeaning/distorting accounting of “who people really are” who Identify with their SSA.
Admire so much people in the Church who are honestly struggling in this arena amongst the fowl and damning behavior of their “brothers and sisters” in Christ.
I’m going to give a shout=out and some praise to a man who spends far too much of his time and energy opposing my civil equality. But Dr. Al Mohler rightly noted that the SBC has been lacking love (okay, really, they’ve been pretty hateful at times). And he is calling the church (parts of which are fiercely resisting) to stop with the hate. And I believe that (slowly) the SBC will come to view gay people and “the homosexual lifestyle” with no more animus than they do cohabiting heterosexuals or Catholics.
And I can live with that. Mohler and the SBC don’t have to agree with my theology. And they don’t have to share my political views. But if they drop the homophobia that hurts both gay people AND baptists (love is so liberating), then we can find a common ground on which to debate or disagree.
This is very interesting…especially as Warren has exposed, from a Christian perspective, the distorted and disgusting styles used by Bahati, Lively others to describe GLBT members.
As these liars are prominent and authoritative in some Christian communities it is hard for those who struggle with unwanted SSA to not feel disgust for themselves. We have not loved these people well or deeply, not only because of their “otherness” or Biblical prohibitions, but because of this poison of disgust and demeaning/distorting accounting of “who people really are” who Identify with their SSA.
Admire so much people in the Church who are honestly struggling in this arena amongst the fowl and damning behavior of their “brothers and sisters” in Christ.
Mary and Richar –
Nobody is really waiting. The discussion regarding change is one that has been going on for decades and isn’t going to wait for prejudice or bigotry to resolve. Mary, I say more power to you and yours and Richard, I say we continue fighting the good fight 😉
Well said, Mary. It makes no sense to wait for Richard’s version of utopia to arrive before considering these important topics.
Mary and Richar –
Nobody is really waiting. The discussion regarding change is one that has been going on for decades and isn’t going to wait for prejudice or bigotry to resolve. Mary, I say more power to you and yours and Richard, I say we continue fighting the good fight 😉
Well said, Mary. It makes no sense to wait for Richard’s version of utopia to arrive before considering these important topics.
I agree…. just ain’t gonna wait for the world to change before I start.
Who said I am ‘bitter’? (Anyway, my comment above was not about ‘me’.) ‘Bitterness’ doesn’t come into it – it’s about common decency, to which homophobia is an affront.
My point in the context of this thread is that we cannot properly evaluate the possibility and desirability of ‘change’ against the kind of homophobic ‘background noise’ produced by some advocates (though not you, of course) of ‘change’, so to me it stands to reason that the efficacy of such a discussion would be enhanced by reducing homophobia.
For someone like myself who had unwanted SSA, I could not wait for the world to change before taking steps myself.
I understand your bitterness but it is too much of a burden to stop myself from growing while waiting for others to see my point of view.
I understand, Mary.
And as someone with friends in places like Uganda, I take a similar line on homophobia and its many malicious manifestations …
I understand, Mary.
And as someone with friends in places like Uganda, I take a similar line on homophobia and its many malicious manifestations …
Richard, I agree. However, I’m not going to wait for everyone or most of everyone to become unhomophobic for me to discuss origin of sexuality, development of sexuality, and change.
For me, the subject is too close to ignore and wait for the crowd.
Indeed, Mary – there has, in recent years, been good progress in many places. But, even in places like London, UK, we still have some serious problems … and there are quite a few people who need to change their attitude and behaviour on this score.
Richard, I agree. However, I’m not going to wait for everyone or most of everyone to become unhomophobic for me to discuss origin of sexuality, development of sexuality, and change.
For me, the subject is too close to ignore and wait for the crowd.
Indeed, Mary – there has, in recent years, been good progress in many places. But, even in places like London, UK, we still have some serious problems … and there are quite a few people who need to change their attitude and behaviour on this score.
I understand what you are saying however, for some the homophobia has stopped and the new discussion has already started.
@ Timothy :
I think your comment above is very fair. People are perfectly entitled to express their own views about what they believe is best for them (and indeed for others) – as long as they are committed to the avoidance of harm to others. What is not acceptable is to misrepresent people with whom one disagrees, and it is surely the case that lesbians and gay men have been, and still are, the object of the most vile and unfair misrepresentation. This, first and foremost, is what must stop … and once homophobia and all its ugly manifestations have been eradicated, a proper debate about the possibility, desirability, kind and likely extent of ‘change’ can begin. Homophobia only ever obscures the truth – whatever that truth might be.
@ Timothy :
I think your comment above is very fair. People are perfectly entitled to express their own views about what they believe is best for them (and indeed for others) – as long as they are committed to the avoidance of harm to others. What is not acceptable is to misrepresent people with whom one disagrees, and it is surely the case that lesbians and gay men have been, and still are, the object of the most vile and unfair misrepresentation. This, first and foremost, is what must stop … and once homophobia and all its ugly manifestations have been eradicated, a proper debate about the possibility, desirability, kind and likely extent of ‘change’ can begin. Homophobia only ever obscures the truth – whatever that truth might be.
David and Emily,
Perhaps I spoke too generally. I’ll clarify that it has been a positive thing that Exodus has steered clear of the political engagements in New York, Rhode Island, and California. And for that I am appreciative.
I’m not much inclined to insist that Alan change his political views or even that Exodus have no position on some issue. I simply don’t want them trotted out as false evidence and presented in a way that does not reflect the truth.
Timothy, as Emily mentioned, you might want to hold off on the kudos to Alan. There are very disturbing things happening over there and I have some doubts that internally they ever really changed that much (which would explain their persistently inconsistent message. But even if they did, they seem to be steering back in the other direction now. Let’s chat sometime.
Timothy, as Emily mentioned, you might want to hold off on the kudos to Alan. There are very disturbing things happening over there and I have some doubts that internally they ever really changed that much (which would explain their persistently inconsistent message. But even if they did, they seem to be steering back in the other direction now. Let’s chat sometime.
Ann: The answer to your question might depend on the individual client, I suspect! I mean, some would say that “homosexual feelings” imply a “homosexual orientation,” and some wouldn’t.
However, I would guess that a person who experienced “homosexual feelings” only once in a while probably wouldn’t feel a strong conflict with religious values, and would be unlikely to seek out SIT. So in practice, the SIT client would be someone who has homosexual feelings all the time, but seldom or never has heterosexual feelings, and thus can be said to have a “homosexual orientation” in conflict with the client’s value system.
Maddeson, what is your definition of a satisfying non gay life? It appears to me that you only consider being married to an opposite gender person as qualifying for “a satisfying non gay life”? Am I wrong?
Hi Throbert,
When you say homosexual feelings, is this one and the same as a homosexual orientation and/or a mindset or something different?
Throbert and Frank, that sounds reasonable (and a bit holier-than-thou) except that I think the urge to procreate could be as considerable. And surely among the remaining 3.5 billion people a soul mate might be findable? Or stated differently: I disagree.
Warren, I presume you will be including information on basic point changes? I hypothesize that a change as little as 10-20 points could support a satisfying non gay life.
StraightGrandmother: SIT stands for “Sexual Identity Therapy,” and you can find a PDF file here that describes it in detail.
But a nutshell description is that SIT rejects “one size fits all” and is open to validating more than one “successful outcome” for a patient/client who feels a conflict between religious values and his/her homosexual feelings.
So for one client, the most “successful outcome” for a conflicted client would be seek a heterosexual marriage with an opposite-sex partner who is fully informed and willing to have a bisexually-identified spouse. For a different client, the ideal outcome would be to live as a self-identified “celibate homosexual”. For yet another client, the ideal outcome would be to leave their current church which teaches that homosexuality is inherently sinful and without positive moral value, and find a different church that encourages openly homosexual people to live in monogamous same-sex relationships or else to be celibate.
Perhaps the only two possibilities that SIT rejects would be either (A) entering into a heterosexual marriage with an opposite-sex partner who has no idea about your homosexual feelings, with the naive expectation that heterosexual marriage plus prayer will automagically “fix” your homosexuality; or (B) just jettisoning the religion, with the naive expectation that Hot Gay Schtupping plus the affection of a same-sex partner plus a circle of accepting friends will automagically “fix” your sense of being in conflict with God.
And the goal of SIT is help a client through the process of introspection needed to identify and prioritize their “genuine” values (which some people may confuse with “what my childhood pastor would’ve approved of”, and other people may confuse with “what the therapist expects to happen”), and to figure which path or outcome is truly the best-compatible with an individual client’s religious value system, personal understanding of God, and overall well-being.
Well I was not going to show my ignorance when Timothy Kincaid wrote about SIT, but now that Warren is talking about it, for the rest of us who don’t know, can you kindly tell us what SIT is?
Interesting
For different degrees of “satisfying,” “non-gay,” and “bisexual,” I guess.
As StraightGrandmother pointed out, a bisexual who for whatever reason decides “I’m never ever ever going to act on my homosexual attractions” is arbitrarily rejecting 50% of their potential “soul mates” before they’ve even met them! And a lot of people would say that’s a highly UNsatisfactory position to take, in a world where “soul mates” seem few and far between.
Also, I’ve heard anecdotally from bisexual men online that they had in the past found emotional and sexual satisfaction with their wives, and emotionally satisfying “male camaraderie” with straight guys, but it had been a source of continuous dissatisfaction and unhappiness in their lives that they never had opportunities to experience the male-bonding AND the erotic joy at the same time, with the same person.
So what some of these bisexual men wanted was some sort of arrangement like Ennis found in Brokeback Mountain — a once-a-year “fishing trip” with an ostensibly like-minded man, so that they wouldn’t have to spend their whole lives pining after male-bonding-with-sex but never having it. (As Ennis found out, “once-a-year fishing trips” aren’t as easy and risk-free as we imagine them to be in fantasies, but that doesn’t mean that men who yearn for such arrangements aren’t seeking to fulfill real psychological needs.)
I would assume that some bisexual women experience the same thing — they can get emotional and sexual satisfaction with men; they can get female-bonding gratification in platonic friendships with other women; but their homosexual side is troubled by never having the female-bonding and the sexual pleasure with the same person at the same time.
Timothy, they’ve moved away but not that much. And I doubt having Jeff Buchanan in an administrative position will help things.
For different degrees of “satisfying,” “non-gay,” and “bisexual,” I guess.
As StraightGrandmother pointed out, a bisexual who for whatever reason decides “I’m never ever ever going to act on my homosexual attractions” is arbitrarily rejecting 50% of their potential “soul mates” before they’ve even met them! And a lot of people would say that’s a highly UNsatisfactory position to take, in a world where “soul mates” seem few and far between.
Also, I’ve heard anecdotally from bisexual men online that they had in the past found emotional and sexual satisfaction with their wives, and emotionally satisfying “male camaraderie” with straight guys, but it had been a source of continuous dissatisfaction and unhappiness in their lives that they never had opportunities to experience the male-bonding AND the erotic joy at the same time, with the same person.
So what some of these bisexual men wanted was some sort of arrangement like Ennis found in Brokeback Mountain — a once-a-year “fishing trip” with an ostensibly like-minded man, so that they wouldn’t have to spend their whole lives pining after male-bonding-with-sex but never having it. (As Ennis found out, “once-a-year fishing trips” aren’t as easy and risk-free as we imagine them to be in fantasies, but that doesn’t mean that men who yearn for such arrangements aren’t seeking to fulfill real psychological needs.)
I would assume that some bisexual women experience the same thing — they can get emotional and sexual satisfaction with men; they can get female-bonding gratification in platonic friendships with other women; but their homosexual side is troubled by never having the female-bonding and the sexual pleasure with the same person at the same time.
There are those of us who are gay and choose never to change. To annihilate the ability to fall in love with a member of the same sex for me would be to deny its the significance of that love in my life. It sustained me when my Catholic faith led me to suicidal depression.
To those Christians who see reorientation as a legitimate answer to a problem, isn’t extorting a renunciation of faith from a Christian no less or more legitimate?
Me too!
Mary,
An observation: although anti-gay activists love to trot out ex-gays as a justification for antagonistic legislation, and although for a while the ex-gay leadership played along with this, it seems to me that many individual ex-gay people have no desire whatsoever to harm the lives, freedoms, or rights of their former (or perhaps still current) friends.
I’m happy that Exodus has moved away from this (and give Alan due credit).
Warren
I’m not sure that is a relevant question and may even be contrary to your premises.
Asking how much change is enough presumes that some change is necessary. But if I understand SIT correctly, change is beside the point; the issue is living life according to one’s values. Implying that there is some measure of change that is “enough” sends the message that prioritizing values is all fine and good… but you still need change in orientation. Or, at least, a little bit of change.
And as over time the participants, on average, became “more gay”, this would not hold much promise for those who wish to prioritize their marriage and family over their own instincts or sexual completeness. It might even suggest that however content they and their spouse might be, however successfully they had constructed their world to fit their goals, they had failed.
(And, by the way, I am looking forward to this. Fascinating, as always.)
@Timothy You understand SIT correctly. The question is provocative but does not indicate any change in my views as the result of the study. If anything, my views of change have been solidified somewhat because of it. I expected more Exodus respondents to say they had changed a lot. However, they didn’t. Even 3 of the 4 who said they changed dramatically said that they had sexual fantasies about their spouses only rarely. A case could be made that those three went from gay to near asexual, leaving one out of 245 who described anything like the kind of change that I was told was common went I came into this arena and that you might still think is common if you read certain websites.
I didn’t claim to know if they’ve changed or not and how. I just noted that organizations and people can change over the course of 8 years (since you indicated following NARTH until 2003 but are still critical of them in 2011).
My knowledge of NARTH is based on what I have read. As a non-religious person, NARTH’s positions match up better with my own than some of the other organizations.
Maddeson# ~ Jun 27, 2011 at 11:50 am
“I have no connection whatsoever to NARTH or any organization on any side of this matter.”
Then how would you know if they have changed or not in the last few years?
And whether you have any official connection to NARTH or not, your tactics here, certainly indicate you are familiar with NARTHs M.O.
I’m happy to post from just a few IP addresses (I normally use 3 different devices) if you will let me. I am also happy to modify my tone or approach if you let me know what specifically is a problem. Revealing my identity would be virtual suicide so is unfortunately not something I would be able to do at this point. Hopefully that can be respected.
Maddeson – Why did you change your name?
Also, you have more IP Addresses than I can shake a moderated status at.
Next you will chose the name Martyr. If you don’t want to be silenced then quit playing games with your names and IP addresses. You are not getting singled out because you express a view I disagree with but because of your strange behavior.
I have no connection whatsoever to NARTH or any organization on any side of this matter. I am an individual with an interest in the topic acting entirely on my own accord. I regret your efforts to silence me.
Straightgrandmother – I certainly will go where the evidence leads.
Madison/Maddeson has been put on moderated status. I assume the two “Maddesons” are the same since they share the same IP Address at various times. I have no idea if Madison is really preston but the tone is beginning to sound the same.
For reasons I won’t share publicly, I am beginning to think Madison/Maddeson/preston is a NARTH or Scott Lively plant.
Madison, “If someone gets to bisexual, they should be able to live a satisfying non gay life, no?
That’s why only a 20 or so point change would be sufficient. I hope Warren includes that in the final report.”
StraightGrandmother- Madison I don’t think so. I am heterosexual, 100% no question. But from comments I have read from bi-sexuals they are attracted to “people” and the sex of the person doesn’t matter. Doesn’t it make sense that a bi-sexual person can be in love with a person of their same sex and the option of rejecting that love and finding a lesser love in an opposite sex person may not prove very satisfying to them. Wouldn’t you always long for that one true love, the one you rejected with the only reason that they are of the same sex?
Maddeson# ~ Jun 27, 2011 at 11:50 am
“I have no connection whatsoever to NARTH or any organization on any side of this matter.”
Then how would you know if they have changed or not in the last few years?
And whether you have any official connection to NARTH or not, your tactics here, certainly indicate you are familiar with NARTHs M.O.
@ Teresa
Is the Commenter Madison … the same as the Commenter Maddeson?
Probably. One thing is obvious: Madison is the same person as Preston, who was barred from this blog a few months ago.
I’m happy to post from just a few IP addresses (I normally use 3 different devices) if you will let me. I am also happy to modify my tone or approach if you let me know what specifically is a problem. Revealing my identity would be virtual suicide so is unfortunately not something I would be able to do at this point. Hopefully that can be respected.
I have no connection whatsoever to NARTH or any organization on any side of this matter. I am an individual with an interest in the topic acting entirely on my own accord. I regret your efforts to silence me.
David…
I was considering the idea that these people may come to feel their ‘supposed bisexuality’ may be enough to allow marriage. The bomb coming when they find it is likely not. Thus my use of the word “confuse.”
I’m confused.
Is the Commenter Madison … the same as the Commenter Maddeson?
If someone gets to bisexual, they should be able to live a satisfying non gay life, no?
That’s why only a 20 or so point change would be sufficient. I hope Warren includes that in the final report.
If someone gets to bisexual, they should be able to live a satisfying non gay life, no?
That’s why only a 20 or so point change would be sufficient. I hope Warren includes that in the final report.
Lynn David,
I followed you well until this, can you elaborate?
Teresa,
It is meant to be serious but cheerful…and highlight some dilemmas.
Lynn David,
I followed you well until this, can you elaborate?
Teresa,
It is meant to be serious but cheerful…and highlight some dilemmas.
This still makes this a guess and Maybe you are only talking about men?
Warren, go where the science takes you. I urge you to use those same contacts at Exodus and Straight Spouse Network and go for the other numbers as well, the people who tried and failed. This is what is so annoying looking in from the outside, that the organizations that have the data don’t share.
Your upcoming report sounds great, I am interested in reading it and learning and continuing to grow. I do think that some people with strongly held religious beliefs can live for an undermentioned amount of time opposite to their sexual orientation. If the person really wants a life where his religious beliefs trump his/her natural sexual orientation, I believe there should be professional help available for them, and that scientific research that researches the ways to have the best outcome for these people is good, it is valid. I wish for every person to find happiness.
That scientific research must look at both sides of the coin, what works and what doesn’t and the numbers of people in each camp. If I was going to a heart doctor with a heart condition that resulted in my only being able to have enough stamina to walk half a city block, and the doctor said, “Well we can give you a heart transplant but because of the virus that has attacked your current heart resides in you and will most likely attack your next heart, there is only a 0.001% chance of success, but we can try with a new heart.” I believe I would learn to live with my reduced mobility. I am making an informed decision based on scientific evidence. If I was a former all star athlete I may wish to try a new heart, but I am making my decision with informed consent.
Where is this scientific evidence in Sexual Orientation Change Efforts research? The people who have the data of the vast pool of entrants into these programs don’t seem to me to share. They put out non peer reviewed studies that take a small amount of study subjects and research on them. I want to honestly see the research on the whole group, not just 300 people. They have been around long enough that long term studies could be made. Why don’t they do that? Because they don’t do that it makes everything coming out of their mouth suspect. Not to say in any way that your research is suspect, that is not what I am saying. You got your pool of study subjects and you did the research. My question is how do we put those 300 people into perspective?
Warren, go where the science takes you. I urge you to use those same contacts at Exodus and Straight Spouse Network and go for the other numbers as well, the people who tried and failed. This is what is so annoying looking in from the outside, that the organizations that have the data don’t share.
Your upcoming report sounds great, I am interested in reading it and learning and continuing to grow. I do think that some people with strongly held religious beliefs can live for an undermentioned amount of time opposite to their sexual orientation. If the person really wants a life where his religious beliefs trump his/her natural sexual orientation, I believe there should be professional help available for them, and that scientific research that researches the ways to have the best outcome for these people is good, it is valid. I wish for every person to find happiness.
That scientific research must look at both sides of the coin, what works and what doesn’t and the numbers of people in each camp. If I was going to a heart doctor with a heart condition that resulted in my only being able to have enough stamina to walk half a city block, and the doctor said, “Well we can give you a heart transplant but because of the virus that has attacked your current heart resides in you and will most likely attack your next heart, there is only a 0.001% chance of success, but we can try with a new heart.” I believe I would learn to live with my reduced mobility. I am making an informed decision based on scientific evidence. If I was a former all star athlete I may wish to try a new heart, but I am making my decision with informed consent.
Where is this scientific evidence in Sexual Orientation Change Efforts research? The people who have the data of the vast pool of entrants into these programs don’t seem to me to share. They put out non peer reviewed studies that take a small amount of study subjects and research on them. I want to honestly see the research on the whole group, not just 300 people. They have been around long enough that long term studies could be made. Why don’t they do that? Because they don’t do that it makes everything coming out of their mouth suspect. Not to say in any way that your research is suspect, that is not what I am saying. You got your pool of study subjects and you did the research. My question is how do we put those 300 people into perspective?
Those numbers very much remind me of the numbers in the study NARTH had posted on their website at the beginning of this century up to about 2003 or 2004 (Catholic Courage had it on their site for a bit longer). I remember thinking at the time it meant they managed to get their bisexuals over the hump into heterosexuality but it was less than one percent (6 of 609 as I remember it) of their true homosexuals who they manage to ‘convert’ to heterosexuality. It appeared that a third of their more homosexual subjects NARTH managed to confuse – that is, get to thinking that they might possibly be bisexual. I think it is that third in which NARTH is consistently creating a bombshell in the future.
…
Those numbers very much remind me of the numbers in the study NARTH had posted on their website at the beginning of this century up to about 2003 or 2004 (Catholic Courage had it on their site for a bit longer). I remember thinking at the time it meant they managed to get their bisexuals over the hump into heterosexuality but it was less than one percent (6 of 609 as I remember it) of their true homosexuals who they manage to ‘convert’ to heterosexuality. It appeared that a third of their more homosexual subjects NARTH managed to confuse – that is, get to thinking that they might possibly be bisexual. I think it is that third in which NARTH is consistently creating a bombshell in the future.
…
@ David Blakeslee,
I’m confused about your latest Comment on this thread. Was all of it intended to be ‘tongue in cheek’, or simply the last thought?
I guess I’m confused. Isn’t ‘ value congruence’ (or something similar, if I don’t quite have it right) just such another term? It seems to pretty aptly described what your looking to name.
Hazemyth,
Yes, I do know that and think it is very cool and appropriate. Using the word “change” just seems to be so subjective with many meanings that I thought another word might be considered in it’s place.
Ann:
I think Dr. Throckmorton refers to this as value congruence.
Dr. Throckmorton,
Did you include the question of happiness and/or contentment in these marriages as part of your survey or just change/sexual/attraction issues?
I think a basic question to ask anyone who is married to someone of the opposite sex (gender) and yet still understands themselves as homosexually oriented, is this – “Are you happy in / with this marriage?” Wouldn’t that transcend or supercede any other issue that other people might have with this marriage?
Warren,
Change is rare, and it can even go from straight to gay. 🙂
We don’t know the mechanism for change.
Did you assess for happiness in the couples assessed (eg. mental illness).
Are the self-reports for marital happiness lower than other special populations (such as, ADHD in one spouse, Depression in one spouse, Disability in one spouse)?
Should sexual behavior be moderated by the frontal lobes and should we form relationships with people who are likely to create healthy expressions of sexuality?…he he. Mischief ahead.
@ David Blakeslee,
I’m confused about your latest Comment on this thread. Was all of it intended to be ‘tongue in cheek’, or simply the last thought?
Wha cares about convincing the gay community. What about the people who are uncomfortable with their sexuality – wouldn’t this be good information?
Ken,
The reason I asked to to promote thinking on the subject. There is situational homosexuality and it does not just occur in prison nor in a forced situation. I would assume some professionals in the pornography idustry are involved in situational homosexuality, prostitution services etc…
Emily,
Situational homosexuality can be a choice but not a preferred choice.
The opposite is also true, probably more so since gays are mostly concerned about the political results whereas the hetero-affirming camp is more concerned with personal results.
I’d be surprised if _anyone_ went from 0-10 to 90-100. But I don’t find that stat to have any significance or import. Hopefully in the final paper Warren will include the more useful data of how far people moved. I suspect a move of as little as 20 or 30 points would be sufficient for someone to live a satisfying non gay life. The question is, how can we get the gay community to acknowledge that?
It’s not situational homosexuality if one of the people involved doesn’t want it to happen. Situational homosexuality occurs in prisons, for example, precisely because of the lack of access to opposite sex partners. But even then, it’s not necessarily truly homosexual activity, as during that time the most important sex organ – the brain – imagines itself to be in a heterosexual encounter.
When no other options are available, situational sexual activity can occur. That is, when a homosexual religious person feels they have NO CHOICE but to be involved with someone of the opposite sex; or a heterosexual prisoner doesn’t have access to his girlfriend on the outside.
Mary# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 3:01 pm
“Nonetheless, they are situational homosexuality acts outside of prison.”
No one has said there aren’t Mary. YOU were the one who asked if there cases of situational homosexuality. I gave you an example of it. If you already knew of such cases, why did you ask?
Nonetheless, they are situational homosexuality acts outside of prison. I suspect there are other examples,… like when someone gets really drunk, or really horny and may end up with someone they usually would not choose. Maybe a swingers party or something or a person is in a relationship with someone who wants a threesome …. conditions where if it were really just a rational decision….
as far as I can see, rape and molestation are one-sided and having nothing to do with the victim’s sexual desires OR orientation.
William,
Situational homosexuality does not only occur in prisons but does appear in other parts of life.
Sorry, Mary, that’s just a bit too terse to be readily understandable. Please could you elucidate?
Thanks much I was not expecting such a quick response. I will wait for the report to show up on the internet although I am not surprised by the results. Especially the people from Exodus and Straight Spouse Network, these are people who were really motivated to change or they would not have joined these organizations. Change is rare, the most you can do is like Chambers at Exodus said, learn to suppress it, but you don’t ever really change your natural sexual orientation.
And of course what you don’t have are the millions of people who have tried and failed to change their sexual orientation and are not in an opposite sex marriage. In order to get those 300 people who are living outside their natural sexual orientation there are millions who tried couldn’t even make it that far. Politically, for those few 300 who are living contrary to their natural sexual orientation, millions who can’t are made to suffer. Slap! No Civil Rights for you, try harder be one of those 300. So those 4 men out of 259 who went from 100% gay to 90% hetros, really the true statistic is more like 4 in a million because you never counted the drop outs who never made it into your study.
Warren, your research approach is somewhat unique in this area, isn’t it? Actually, a rather welcome look from a different perspective on the fuzzy concept of ‘change’. It certainly substantiates prior study results, in the fact of the rarity of male change; but, what’s quite surprising to me is the uncommonness of female change … 3.3%. My thoughts, based on some readings of female change, was that you would have had higher numbers than the 2 out of 59. At least, that’s the word-of-mouth stuff that’s out there. Twice as high as men; but, both quite, quite uncommon.
Another thought, Warren. Time is a factor that should be taken into account, I think, as a data point; as well, as what the Str8 Spouse’s satisfaction level is. I know this is not necessarily what your research was focused on … but … I can testify from personal experience, that same sex attractions (perhaps also with opposite sex attractions) can be ‘asleep’ for awhile due to life’s circumstances; and, suddenly erupt with a vengeance when life altering events occur.
The Straight Spouse Network has way too many 20 – 30 year marriages breaking up over this opposite orientation marriage deal. Over and over, you’ll hear the str8 spouse, no matter the gender, knowing something was wrong, feeling it was their fault for the emotional detachment, that they were the cause of the problems, etc., etc. Also, the satisfaction from a gay perspective may be a whole different set of variables, than the str8 perspective satisfaction variables.
I’m wondering if most people think of someone else or something else while they are having sex. I’m also wondering how many would admit it.
Dr. Throckmorton,
Since the word change, and it’s myriad of meanings is so subjective, is there another way to describe the shift that takes place when one makes a decision that is based on something other than primary and spontaneous desires?
The opposite is also true, probably more so since gays are mostly concerned about the political results whereas the hetero-affirming camp is more concerned with personal results.
I’d be surprised if _anyone_ went from 0-10 to 90-100. But I don’t find that stat to have any significance or import. Hopefully in the final paper Warren will include the more useful data of how far people moved. I suspect a move of as little as 20 or 30 points would be sufficient for someone to live a satisfying non gay life. The question is, how can we get the gay community to acknowledge that?
Sorry, let me try again.
Here is the question from the survey – On a scale of 0 to 100, where 100 is completely heterosexual and 0 is not at all heterosexual, please rate your degree of sexual desire for members of the opposite sex in general.
We asked the subjects to rate themselves at age 18, time of first marriage and now. Only 4 men out of 245 men and 2 of 59 women said they had gone from being 10 or less percent heterosexual at 18 to 90+% hetero now. In other words, very very few people changed orientation during the course of their lives thus far. Overall, there was very little movement on the part of the gay and bisexual groups, by far the largest groups of people in this study.
It was not a study of change per se. We did not ask people to marry and then see if change occured. We wanted to understand the sexuality of same sex attracted people who chose to marry heterosexually. In doing so, we asked questions about change over time to see if there was any. And on average the group got gayer.
I can’t say much more because I need to save the real meat of it until we submit it and get it published. However, the way to understand this is that sexual orientation does not change much even among people who marry heterosexually. If there is a group that one might expect to see change in if it occured, I would guess it is that one.
StraightGrandmother# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 11:51 am
“I don’t have a clue of what you are saying above, not a clue.”
Actually, it was a bit unclear (even to someone who reads a lot of papers 🙂 )
Warren, is your scale set up as:
0 – NO opposite sex attraction
100 – exclusively opposite sex attraction
And will the survey questions/data be publicly available?
Isn’t it just as easily observed in life?
Let’s see….., rape, molestation, conditioning etc….
This may be the case for some, however for some people like myself the change and mentioning it again and again is a way of saying that change does happen. And for the rare person out there, someone needs to carry the damn flag! I don’t in anyway want to curb the rights of gays or their families. Some of us do support marriage equality, financial equality etc…
Mary# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 12:09 pm
“Situational heterosexuality. Hmmm… is there such a thing as situational homosexuality?”
Yes, and it is easily observed in prison populations.
Situational heterosexuality. Hmmm… is there such a thing as situational homosexuality?
I am very interested in this topic because the “at will” ability to change your sexual orientation is the basis of so many people’s justification of denying Equal Civil Rights to gays, lesbians, bi-sexual and transgender citizens. I really would like to understand what you wrote Warren, and I do not understand it at all. This is what I understand you wrote,
You went to Exodus & Straight Spouse Network and got 249 men and 59 women who agreed to participate in your research, I’ll just call them the study subjects. The study subjects were gay or lesbian previously and now are married to a person of the opposite sex. And then after that I don’t get it. What are your trying to say, dumb it down SVP. Say something like at 18 years old the male subject had a 90% sexual attraction to men and 10% towards women. The same male subject at 30 years old and married to an opposite sex spouse now that a 90% sexual attraction to women and only 10% to men?
Really confusing is this part of what you wrote, “We asked about opposite sex and same sex sexual attraction at 18, time of first marriage and currently on a scale of 0 to 100. only 4/245 men and 2/59 women rated themselves less than 10/100 at age 18 and then 90+ currently on the opposite sex attraction scale.”
I don’t have a clue of what you are saying above, not a clue. I understand for your scientific Journal you will no doubt write scientifically and since I am not a trained scientist it will be hard for me to understand, but on your blog if you could dumb it down for the lay people who read your thoughts that would be sincerely appreciated.
Enough for what, Warren?
Enough to say that conversion therapy was helpful?
Enough to say that therapy was successful?
Enough to say the SSA person isn’t harming the spouse?
Enough to say the marriage is successful?
Enough to say that a small number of gays can change orientation?
Enough to say that any gay person can change orientation?
None of the above. I addressed briefly what I thought it might be enough for in the post. Mainly, what I think we demonstrate is that almost no one changes categorically. But a small number seem to change enough so they can see themselves differently. I am not saying that is a good thing, just trying to help address the way things are.
I do have one male friend who was gay, but is now Christian and married to a woman. But having heard homosexual friends or co-workers say things along the lines of, “I prayed to God to take these feelings away but it never happened,” I have had to wonder if that’s a reasonable expectation, and if it isn’t a posture based on desperate fear rather than anything doctrinal/biblical. Is there any other area where we would expect such a thing to be typical, and is this how we consistently see God acting? So many people live with persistent, strong feelings that they cannot or will not act on, and it is a life long fight on moral grounds or for self-preservation. Is same sex attraction really any different from anything else that some people embrace and others reject? I just don’t understand why this information is controversial, because it seems consistent with so many other spheres.
M. Worrell – It is controversial because culture warriors really want gays to change so they can make a case for gay being changeable and not deserving of legal protection. The change paradigm, I hope, will die off soon.
I guess one question that needs to be asked is: “If a husband needs to fantasize about James Bond naked in order to maintain an erection while having sex with his wife, is that qualitatively worse than the scenario of a husband who needs to fantasize about Lara Croft naked in order to maintain an erection while having sex with his wife?”
(And, in the case of a man with SSA who’s been married for a number of years to a heterosexual woman, the above question needs to be chewed on and digested by both spouses before they figure out what they’re going to do. I mean, it’s perfectly understandable that the wife would be dissatisfied to know that her husband is thinking about James Bond’s dick when they’re making love, but she has to weigh this against the reality that other women have husbands who think about Lara Croft’s boobs.)
I do think that any “man who likes men” but is considering marriage to a woman has a moral obligation to disclose his SSA feelings and let her decide whether she’s willing to “share” her husband with a fantasy James Bond.
TMcGee – Agreed, just as we advocated in the recent NYT article, this must be something that is discussed with a spouse or prospective spouse.
Perhaps "situational heterosexuality" might account for a lot of what you are seeing. In this case, the situation is the person’s deep belief that they, for religious or other reasons, simply cannot live a life that allows them to act on their primary sexual attractions.
Mary# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 12:09 pm
“Situational heterosexuality. Hmmm… is there such a thing as situational homosexuality?”
Yes, and it is easily observed in prison populations.
Situational heterosexuality. Hmmm… is there such a thing as situational homosexuality?
I guess one question that needs to be asked is: “If a husband needs to fantasize about James Bond naked in order to maintain an erection while having sex with his wife, is that qualitatively worse than the scenario of a husband who needs to fantasize about Lara Croft naked in order to maintain an erection while having sex with his wife?”
(And, in the case of a man with SSA who’s been married for a number of years to a heterosexual woman, the above question needs to be chewed on and digested by both spouses before they figure out what they’re going to do. I mean, it’s perfectly understandable that the wife would be dissatisfied to know that her husband is thinking about James Bond’s dick when they’re making love, but she has to weigh this against the reality that other women have husbands who think about Lara Croft’s boobs.)
I do think that any “man who likes men” but is considering marriage to a woman has a moral obligation to disclose his SSA feelings and let her decide whether she’s willing to “share” her husband with a fantasy James Bond.
TMcGee – Agreed, just as we advocated in the recent NYT article, this must be something that is discussed with a spouse or prospective spouse.