According to reports, a threat against a witness for UK reparative Lesley Pilkington has postponed her hearing before the British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy. I have heard through sources there that the threat is being investigated. Ms. Pilkington is being scrutinized due to her statements about homosexuality made to Patrick Strudwick, a journalist who went undercover to find out how a reparative therapist operated.
On the 17th, Ms. Pilkington went on radio to explain her approach and discuss the situation. Click the link to hear the broadcast.
In it, she refers to the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) as the largest reparative therapy organization in the world. I suppose it is, but she doesn’t mention that there are fewer than 100o members, with a smaller subset actually having advanced mental health degrees.
When asked by the host how one can convert someone from gay to straight, Ms. Pilkington said surveys show that “daddy issues,” namely relationship with father is the main factor involved. She says that the bond is the problem, but then hastens to add that “we’re not blaming parents, I am not blaming any father at all.” Hearing the contradiction, the host asks if Pilkington’s husband failed their son (he is gay), and she answered, “we don’t use words like that.” However, she then says, “there were serious mistakes” and adds that there was “a failure at some level.”
This kind of double speak is typical of my interactions with reparative therapists. Pilkington says reparative therapists don’t use the word fail, and then she uses it in the next breath. Reparative therapists often say they are not blaming the parents, and then proceed to do so.
Mrs. Pilkington then says she seeks to bring healing in her therapy because “there will always be pain.” No doubt in any therapy situation, one can find something that is painful. However, finding pain in the life of someone who is gay does not mean that it relates to the cause of the sexual orientation. Furthermore, many gays with warm, loving parents would have to manufacture problems in order to meet up with Mrs. Pilkington’s expectations.
Finally, Pilkington conflates spiritual healing with the repair of some kind of parent-child break. She believes God can heal the relationship problems which she is sure are at the root of the same-sex attraction. Sadly, when the religious techniques don’t work to effect change, as is often true, the result can be despair and a sense of failure. I know of young men who have become disillusioned with their faith, leaving it since it promised change without delivering on the promise.
Emily,
I agree with you that the language is not yet there for many. Did you know the word homosexual has only existed about 150 years?
David, she is also defrauding the NHS.
I do, too. I don’t buy the “behavior/identity/lifestyle” reduction — or the term SSA. I hate “SSA”. Makes it sound like a disorder or disease, which it is not. I call all of this “squishy” ex-gay lingo “Exodus Newspeak” and it has always bothered me immensely.
Warren has called their approach “reframe and resist”, not acutal “reorientation”. He’s right on that. I recently asked a long-term Exodus leader who has since left the organization if, in all his years with Exodus, he had ever met a gay man who had become heterosexual through Exodus. He understood the question clearly. His blunt answer? “Not one.” (And he used to proudly call himself “ex-gay”.)
Now they say the opposite of “homosexuality” is “holiness”, not heterosexuality. Exodus once actually officially defined “homosexuality” and “heterosexuality”. At that time (about 1991) they were clear that being homosexual was about “romantic, emotional and sexual attraction.”, Their definition of “heterosexuality”, on the other hand, said nothing of heterosexual “attraction” as part of being “ex-gay”, only the “ability to relate to the opposite sex without fear or distaste”. Heck, by that defintion, some straight people aren’t straight.
When I pointed this out to then President, Bob Davie, they just removed all definitions and have left things “squishy” ever since. As one female co-founder of Exodus admits, “Exodus has always had a problem with definitions.” Personally, I think it’s often deliberate.
Hey, I am all for diversity. And being clear about language. 🙂
Ann, did you not read Warren’s request?
I suggest Warren delete these last two comments as well so the thread can veer back on topic. Otherwise I reply to your new comment, you reply, someone else chimes in, etc.
Or “Queer”
Yes I did. Before that, the common word was “sodomite,” or “pervert,” or “invert,” or “bugger,” or maybe even “dirty filthy diseased ‘it.'”
I’m not sure we have develop the language to describe the human experience.
Warren,
I appreciate your observations about reparative therapy. The double speak, despair, and disillusionment very much describe my experiences in ex-gay ministry counseling and professional Christian counseling. Thank you for articulating the confusing and negative results of ‘ex-gay’ counseling so well.
The views you express on your blog continue to surprise me over the years. I assumed you would defend a Christian counselor from what some view as religious persecution by her professional organization and a bias reporter.
I have my own conflicted feelings about my Christian counseling experience. In some sense I agree with Pilkington’s defense. I, like Pilkington’s clients, willing sought a conservative Christian counselor, so it is hypocritical to protest the underlying religious doctrines the counseling is based upon. However, I do think the counseling I received and the psychological theories about homosexuality that were applied were harmful.
What has continually annoyed me about the ex-gay ‘counselors’ is the tendency keep a very squishy definition. Whether they are professionally accredited like Pilkington or lay counselors, they seem to seek the best benefits of being both a religious advocate and professional therapist. It seems Pilkington is arguing, in part, that any criticism by the professional board is religious persecution. Simultaneously, she wants to keep her professional certification so she appeals to her conservative Christian clientele as a therapist with more training and certification than the average reverend or religious layman.
Amen.
So do I. More than I can count.
Mary,
Perhaps you missed my response in all the recent posts, but I would appreciate it if you would explain what you are referring to in this comment.
Mary# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:24 am
“You either have a short memory as to what you agreed to”
Michael,
Don’t read so much into it. Take it as simply as possible – maybe we are a diverse people.
I know! I don’t like the squishy definitions either but that’s sort of what we are left with. Things aren’t so black and white as many intersexed people will tell you. there is a lot of variation in people’s lives and trying to quantify anyone in categories may not work.
What if we really saw ourselves as people. Just people. Niether Jew nor gentile, niether man nor woman, etc..etc.. just people of Christ.
Ken,
My mistake. I thought we were on the same page with a couple of ideas but I see that is not the case.
The only one here that I recognize is Exodus – are they well endowed, well, monitarily that is? Also is the FRC the Family Research Center? I don’t know anything about them except I have heard their name. The others I don’t know at all. How do you know they are backed with a lot of money?
Ok, yes, I have heard of them. I think the head person ( a lady ) was on Larry King once when I was watching.
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 4:57 pm
“How do you know they are backed with a lot of money?”
Because the spend a lot on anti-gay campaigns in various states around the US. Many of them have used used their anti-gay stances for fund-raising.
We do a fairly decent job of it. And we can always endeavor to be as clear and honest as possible.
Mary, by “intersexed” do you mean “intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male”?
According to wikipedia, “This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from typical XX-female or XY-male presentations, e.g., sex reversal (XY-female, XX-male), genital ambiguity, sex developmental differences. An intersex individual may have biological characteristics of both the male and the female sexes.”
Are you suggesting that “ex-gay/post/former” gays have such congenital, chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies”? Do you describe yourself as such?
BTW: I do accept people as people — of equal dignity and value regardless of what labels they may or may not apply to themselves. The labels only help to describe sexual orientation (gay, bi, straight, etc.) They are not meant to define the totality or “identity” of the “person”. At least, that is not how I used these terms. I’m a gay male. My brother is a straight male. That’s all. No negative or positive implications about us as people.
As long as conservatives push for some kind of simplistic reason and change, they work to further the gay community. I have to smile at this 🙂
What or who is NOM?
NOM. National Organization for Marriage.
Jayhuck, exactly. And let’s not forget NOM, Ann – revenues of $8M last year raised from a very few donors whose names the organizations refuses to disclose in defiance of the courts that have found against them. Inciting hatred against us has become big business and a lot of people make very good livings from it.
The lie of ‘choice’ is central to the attack upon us. If orientation is innate then it becomes much more difficult to blame us, to call us immoral and the rest of it. Remove choice and those attacks can be clearly seen for what they are: irrational and founded upon ignorance. Hence the insistence that we ‘choose’ our ‘lifestyle’. The new lie is that the push for acceptance will somehow ‘silence’ Christians. This is as preposterous as the lie that if we can marry it will somehow destroy marriage itself. I notice that in this puff piece by a narrowly focused ‘Christian news’ organization (in other words, NOT the BBC) much is made of ‘threats’. Personally I don’t believe it. It’s a new line of attack against us, that we are somehow unhinged and determined to carry out some ‘radical’ agenda.
I don’t think it will take as long as you, David Roberts. Perhaps because I work in the theatre where the issue isn’t an issue at all. It used to be, perhaps 20 years ago. But not any more. I don’t mind queer, though I suppose it depends who’s using it. I don’t much like ‘gay’ which I find trivializing. I look forward to the day one’s orientation is like one’s eye color, an aspect of who we are and not the defining feature.
We all got used to cell phones. I daresay we can all get used to me referring to my husband. Including me. I never thought that would happen in my lifetime but it has. Thank you, Canada. And it would be happening here were it not for the well-funded efforts of organizations named above.
Speaking of abortions – when it became known that a heart begins beating at 3 weeks gestation, that fact has changed many minds about when life begins. If a life isn’t viable, then why does it’s heart have to be stopped, and it’s life terminated? Usually a woman does not even know she is pregnant until 5-6 weeks gestation, after the heart starts beating. Before that knowledge became available, people were believing what information they had and basing their decisions on that and I would tend to think that if they knew what they know now, some women would not follow through with the abortion.
Couldn’t the same be true about the myriad of thoughts and opinions on sexual orientation? We know what we know now and our thoughts follow that knowledge. I still maintain that, when we know more, our thoughts tend to shift in one direction or the other – rarely do we stay in the middle. Right now we have very limited knowledge about orientations and yet there seems to be so many people who think they know all the answers.
Parent-child break – 40 years later and this idea still exists – WOW – despite the evidence of so many groups – It says a great deal about religion
Ken,
Whether it be this particular UK therapist or the one around the corner, the role of the therapist should never be to “convert” a client/patient.
To be fair, I don’t think that Exodus officially teaches that homosexuality (sexual orientation) is a “choice”. They do teach that behavior, “identity” and “lifestyle” are choices. They believe that we choose whether or not to act on or “identify” with what they refer to as “SSA”, but not that the “Same Sex Attractions” themselves are a matter or choice.
Ann –
I meant viable outside the womb. That isn’t possible until at least 27 weeks, if I”m not mistaken. And yes I knew that scientifically accurate yet irrelevant factoid already.
But congratulations on NOT changing my positions on abortion OR sexual orientation. Not even close. Way to go, champ!
For some, it does not fit in with their belief system.
I know a mother who has a gay son. He pines away for someone to love but feels it is against his religion. His mother has encouraged him to accept being gay and go find someone to love. Her thinking is “Why doesn’t he just go to church that believes it is acceptable?”
Well, that just isn’t what he believes. He is more comfortable in his faith though his desires are in conflict with his faith. It’s his choice. He is fuly aware of gay affirming therapy.
This is your belief and I believe your conviction about it. Others may or may not believe you and that is why I said earlier that if there is evidence that cannot be refuted and it is widely publicized as such by a respected a credible individual, then anything anyone else would say to the contrary, would be a moot point.
Isn’t it correct to say that the vast majority of NARTH’s membership are pastors and other laymen? Warren?
@Ann
There is no serious contention on the issue among scientific and medical communities, the contention is almost entirely over religious interpretations and those who hold them. Are you suggesting that religious contention (on any subject) commonly ceases after scientific enlightenment? What world have you been living in?
RE: NARTH, the member numbers are fuzzy, but several years ago, I was told that there “around 1000 members” mostly pastors and laypeople. The professional members (those with degrees in mental health) were under 200.
Ann,
Do you realize that that the the vast majority of scientific and medical communities DO endorse and accept this?
That isn’t actually true. Most of the people who seem to have a problem with homosexuality aren’t homosexuals themselves, rather, their religion teaches them as much! I know vastly more straight people who are against living as a practicing gay person than I do homosexuals who are unhappy with their sexuality. ACtually, I don’t know any gay people who are unhappy with their sexuality but I know they are out there.
David B., I believe there are several recent active threads where your abortion comments would be appropriate and on topic.
With respect Michael, I think that’s a distinction without a difference. The very fact of labeling an inherent and innate aspect of a human being’s life with the belittling label ‘SSA’ makes the point clearly enough.
Perhaps you are looking for something about which to be outraged?
I have read Ann’s post here for several years. To the best of my knowledge, her questions and statments are truly sincere without malice. There is no armed truth or veiled meaning in her posts.
Ann,
Do you also realize that if someone truly believes in something, no amount of facts to the contrary will change their mind. Belief is a powerful thing, and sometimes people hold on tightly to beliefs that are simply wrong, regardless of evidence that contradicts those beliefs
Pick any of the several well-known and often conservative Christian anti-gay groups Ann! Do you ever listen to their rhetoric, they are always suggesting that being gay is a choice! The AFA, FRC, Exodus Intl, American Vision, CWA, just to name a few
Stephen,
Yes, and IMHO, herein lies the problem of contention. While there’s quite a bit known, it is just known as opinions and theories – nothing definitive has been declared as evidence that can be widely accepted and agreed upon. At least this is my knowledge and interpretation of it.
I am unaware of a well-funded it’s a choice crowd – what organization or group of people are you referring to that is well funded and promotes the words “it’s a choice”?
In response to the earlier question about the use of “queer” as a general descriptor for GLBTs, I have found that younger people are more likely to be comfortable with that than someone of my age (nearly 50). I still remember clearly the derogatory use of that word in a society that fully supported it’s use that way.
Depending on the community, more kids are growing up without such a harsh connection to that word. While I certainly think that is a good thing, it is by no means complete and I don’t mean to diminish the cruel treatment many still experience.
Even if the whole of society were to stop on a dime and lose all stigma and hatred of GLBTs, I suspect it would still be 50 – 100 years before our collective memory would fade enough to make things truly equal. The best we can do is set the stage for that transition.
My main point is that one should be careful with the use of that term, “queer,” as it still does pack a punch for many of us. I would suggest not initiating the use in conversation, but by the same token don’t be terribly surprised if some GLBTs (especially younger ones) use it themselves. It’s in a state of flux and I’m guessing the attraction to that term is the desire to have one word instead of many to describe a general group.
David Roberts,
I hope I have answered your questions – if not, please let me know and I will try to articulate more and / or better. As to the issue of religious views here, I think you will see that I rarely, if ever, use any kind of religious reference to prove any opinion or bias I have – in fact, I often question the use of it by others.
I couldn’t agree more Ann!
Yes, I strongly believe this – about everyone and their strongly held beliefs. Contrary to evidence pointing in another direction, some will hold onto their beliefs to accomodate their emotional comfort rather than realize they were wrong, and with that, evolve emotionally.
David Roberts,
Thank you for the clarification. I believe you now that your comment wasn’t meant as sarcasm so much as a way of punctuating a point – my sensitive nature and how you have responded to me in prior comments told me otherwise when I first read it. I am sorry.
I honestly was not thinking about religion when I made my comment. It seems to me that if the scientific and medical community have sound information and proof about the origin of orientations, and the other aspects about them, then many questions would be answered. It is my understanding that no one has this information or evidence. Right now all there is are theories and speculation and that can and does lead to lay people thinking they know the answers based on their biases. My hope would be that if these questions were answered with certitude and sound evidence by someone well respected and there was a consensus within the scientific and medical communities, regardless of what information is put forth, then speculations from other lay people who think they know the answers, would be looked upon as a moot point and the contention would subside. I did not factor in religion – now considering it, I do see where there would still be some contention as their beliefs are grounded in a different context and it supercedes any other evidence put forth or yet to be put forth or determined.
No, this is unfortunately another assumption. There was no sarcasm and it was a legitimate question.
David Roberts,
I would just like to add that, for some who are gay and content, and some who are questioning whether they are content and exploring ways to respond to that, I really don’t think any evidence is going to matter to them, as well it shouldn’t.
Ann, in science a theory is not the same as speculation. I fear that even when everything becomes known the truth will not set us free. Look how the theory of evolution is trashed. And there’s quite a lot that is already known about orientation. The problem is caused by the disinformation being put about by the extremely well-funded ‘it’s a choice’ crowd.
Ken,
If she is telling patients/clients that she can convert them, then I do disagree with this terminology and method. She does not have the power to convert anyone. Any change or shift or modification in behavior or thought comes from the patient – not a therapist. My knowledge now, subject to change with additional information, is that she used words that could also be interpreted in another way to an individual who is exploring other ways to respond to unwanted same gender attraction and/or sexual behavior.
Dave: Yes, I had daddy issues with the big aloof oak tree that brought me into the world. All he did was stand there.
Ken,
I suspect differently. I think there is more of an interest now than ever. I wish there was some established, credible and widely accepted facts on orientation so there would not be such a clash between people who think they have all the answers. The problem is we don’t have really any answers – just speculation. I believe someone who tells me they feel as though they are gay and were born with the orientation they have – I also believe people who tell me they are gay and do not think they were born with an orientation – I believe people who tell me they know why they are gay and it is because of early life experiences – I believe people who tell me they have always thought they would never fall in love with a person of the opposite gender and were surprised when they did – I believe people who tell me they could never fall in love with someone of the same gender and were surprised when they did. In other words, each person has a story and nothing scientific or medical can really back it up or dismiss it. It would be so much better if there was a widely known, acknowledged, and accepted medical and scientific reason for orientations – that way I think all the speculations and opinions and assumptions and judgments could be wiped out.
I’m not aware that I accused her of anything, though earlier she did state as a matter of fact that I was being sarcastic when I was not. I’ve made my question to her clear, and I’ve read this blog for longer than either of you have been commenting, so I’m fairly clear on her style, and yours. Thank you just the same.
Christian love in action:
“Several of us plan to bring a token of Christian love (like a small bag of cookies or other treats) to share with homosexual activists who we’ll be encountering Monday,” the group wrote in a newsletter to supporters. “It’s time we dispel lies about Christians, by tangibly showing love to people who struggle with homosexuality.”
Note the tell-tale phrase ‘struggle with homosexuality’. This is what NARTHolepsy enables. It seems innocent enough for one person to ‘struggle’. Next thing you know, I can’t get married and school kids are killing themselves.
I say again, good for this reporter to expose this fraud. He wasn’t being underhanded, SHE was. She was defrauding the NHS by peddling quack cures based on born-again thinking. Let’s hope she has to refund the money she stole. And let’s hope that this serves as a warning to people in the UK that they are after their children to brainwash them into lives of misery and self-loathing.
I am not sure how Christian love is different from other kinds of love toward people. It seems rather arrogant to me that to be loving, one has to be identified as a Christian. If someone is an activist, then I strongly disagree that they are struggling with homosexuality – I could be wrong and I am sure there are the exceptions, however, this seems like a contradiction to me.
Old terrain to revisit. Are we persuading each other?
74 comments, now 75.
BTW, any thoughts about the guy who killed all those babies, for money?
I have looked them over, not many…
Outrage lately at this sight and commenting on it seems inspired more by the possibility of cruelty, rather than actual cruelty.
Perhaps our outrage is disproportionate to the offenses we discuss; perhaps inversely so.
Ann,
What does this mean?
With all due respect Mary, the question was posed to Ann about a statement Ann made. Please be kind enough to let her respond for herself.
Jayhuck,
Yes, I do – it still seems to remain within their community though instead of being widely accepted.
Is it possible for you to ask your question wihout the sarcasm?
David,
With all due respect, I was trying to give you some perspective on Ann that you may be unaware of. Your accusation seems mean and out of place. Maybe you could familiarize yourself with more of her posts by reading them. Might give you some context in which she writes?
Where do you find these “people”. In my church (the one I currently attend), we are very concerned over global climate.
Not only is there a difference in “evangelicals” and others but keep in mind that the median age of evangelicals is changing and that effects thinking on current trends such as global warming, homosexuality etc…
Agreed.
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 9:02 am
“I wish there was some established, credible and widely accepted facts on orientation so there would not be such a clash between people who think they have all the answers. ”
Did you even attempt to look at the link I posted, Ann? Simply because the exact mechanism(s) about what causes a person to have a particular orientation are not known, does not mean nothing is known about it. And simply because what is known about orientation doesn’t fit exactly with you or a friend of yours doesn’t invalidate what is known. That’s like saying “my uncle lou smoked 2 packs a day all his life and lived to be 85. Therefore nothing is known about lung cancer and cigarettes.”
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 8:40 am
listen to the radio clip Warren linked to Ann. Specifically the intro by the interviewer. He talks about how some believe gays can convert to being straight (with help from the right person) then introduces Pilkington as a therapist who does that. Nowhere in the interview does she dispute it (and she heard the intro because she comments on it).
Yes the term “queer” is acceptable. It’s also acceptable for straights to use, in my opinion, when referencing the LGBT community. See also: “Queer Theory” or “Queer Studies,” classes and scholastic disciplines offered at many colleges, including those in the Ivy League.
But nobody ever says “I’m straight but I wish I were gay instead, so I’ll go to therapy to try to make that possible, at least on SOME level.” It’s always someone whose attractions are same-sex (or predominantly same-sex” that wants it to go away.
There is no scientific evidence enough on one side or the other to suggest that one has to see homosexuality as normal or not normal.
Why wouldn’t it be “normal?” Why the need to rid one’s self of same sex attraction? I don’t understand why. I understand people think it can happen (just like Warren can think he’s an Oak tree). I don’t understand WHY it would need to happen.
There are lots of heterosexuals who seeks help with their particular sexual issues.
Ken,
I don’t see anything wrong in going to a therapist who holds the same view on sexuality as the client. Unless of course they beleive that pedophelia, rape etc… etc… is acceptable.
And I would not, would not ever, want to see a therapist who told me that I had to live with being gay because that’s the way it is. There is no scientific evidence enough on one side or the other to suggest that one has to see homosexuality as normal or not normal.
So, I would not want someone who is gay telling a therpaist that the therapist violated ethical rules when that gay person knew in advance what position that therapist had on the subject. Go or don’t go – but don’t assume that everyone is going to find the therapist unethical.
We all have varying opinions on the origins and developement of sexuality.
Nothing. There’s nothing wrong with being gay, or straight, or bi, or asexual.
Which means nobody should feel compelled to “go straight” if they first were gay. Again: What do people treat all sexual orientations except for Hetero to be “problems”? Well?
Mary,
To be clear I don’t particularly care what you or any individual believes about why he or she has a certain orientation. However, I do care when professional therapists spread misleading or false information about sexual orientation,especially if they are basing therapy on that information.
Now as to the issue of people being upset about conversion therapy, i’ll give you the following hypothetical:
lets say a dr. sets up a clinic to help black people become white. Can you imagine how some people (and civil rights organizations) might be upset about that? And what if the dr. justifies his practice by saying “If black people want to be that way then fine, I’m merely providing a service for people who aren’t happy being black and helping them in their choice to be white” and then gives a bunch stats about how blacks have more problems with drugs, less education, higher crime rates etc. Do you see how some might find that offensive?
Emily K,
To get the most accurate answers, these questions should probably be posed to the individual rather than an open forum where there are biases.
My guess would be that they it is presented that way by the individual who is other than hetero and having a problem with it. If someone is just opining on sexual orientation – then it should be left at that, someone has an opinion.
I’m not sure that ‘the beliefs of the therapist’ should really be a factor in professional psychotherapy (especially when that therapy is funded by the state); the central concern must be to achieve the best possible outcome for the client. My understanding is that so doing requires that the client’s beliefs and values be taken very seriously. Those of the therapist are incidental; the duty of the therapist is to operate to the highest professional standards, putting the client’s well-being first.
Mary –
Of course it is. I don’t think Emily was suggesting otherwise, was she?
A person may disagree with what I say is the origin of my sexuality but that does not make them more accurate either. And if that is the case, don’t I have a right to seek out a therapist who’s
From Warren’s original post:-
“However, finding pain in the life of someone who is gay does not mean that it relates to the cause of the sexual orientation.”
This is perhaps the crucial statement. I might also add that ‘finding pain’ does not mean that the person’s sexual orientation is the cause of that pain. The ’cause’ might an external/environmental factor, possibly completely unrelated to sexual orientation. A good therapist would ‘spot’ that if this were the case, rather than looking only at ’causes of same-sexual orientation’.
The point is that if origin and developement are so unknown and gays go around saying they were born that way (without much adieu) then isn’t okay for people like myself to say – I wasn’t born gay but circumstances in my developement contributed to those feelings – (without much adieu) or strain against gays?
Ken – do you mind telling me how old are you?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 4:29 pm
“Ken, I did not ask for your opinion about claims to being born gay. ”
Then what where you asking for, when you asked this question?
“So gay people should not go around saying they were born gay and that it is unchangeable?”
Because what i gave you was an opinion, based on my knowledge of the current state of scientific understanding about sexual orientation.
prior to your question, the discussion was about the (lack of) understanding of what causes a person to have a particular orientation.
Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that the condition of sexuality stems from a variety of sources?
You can read about the witness intimidation here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349012/Lesley-Pilkington-Gay-conversion-trial-halted-witness-intimidated.html
(note the daily mail and several other british papers do refer to it as a trial).
As to the radio interview, I found several things disturbing about it. Foremost is the fact that she is treating her own son.
Also, it is worse than simply having to manufacture problems with the parents (specifically the father). Years ago, I heard Nicolosi claim (in a tv interview) that he could show how any gay man had a broken relationship with his father. So if the client doesn’t have issues with his father, the therapist will probe until they “find” one, which is very dangerous. Especially, if the therapist finds it was the father missing the 1st grade play, or a baseball game or some other such trivial event, that triggered the rift, because now the therapist has over emphasized the significance of these events in the clients mind. And when the therapy doesn’t work (which it won’t in most cases, if any at all), there is now a rift between parent and child, which didn’t exist before the therapy.
David Roberts,
How do you apply this analogy to children in grade school or junior high school or high school? Do you think they are able to or willing to discern to the degree you are indicating or have the compassion you are referring to?
Oh. Ok. I wasn’t made aware this is what you were asking until your recent comments. Request denied.
Stephen,
You made a comment about Narth being a religious organization and that they believe that the only cure for homosexuality was to pray away the gay. This really surprised me and I asked you to show me something that validated your claim. Were you able to do that yet? If you don’t have time, I understand.
Emily, K,
OK, earlier in this thread, Michael said this about same sex attraction:
And then Stephen said this about same sex attraction:
And then David Roberts concured with this:
Would concur with them or are you saying that you (notice I didn’t use CAPS) are using the term to describe your (notice again – no CAPS) sexual orientation?
Soooo true!
Emily,
I am not interested in this – it holds no value. I am interested and concerned about how children react to that word. Again, I am going to ask you to not use it when referring to children.
lol. i should call it the “queer-brella.”
Emily,
The point being that a descriptive word of a person who belongs to a certain group is something that develops and grows over time.
Back in the day, when we were fighting for gay rights, I never expected children being born in the 80’s and 90’s to then begin to refer to any other group in a disrespectful manner. That was not our intent. We wanted fairness for diversity – not more negativity.
Ann, “Queer” is a current term and, like the term “Jew,” needn’t be derogatory, but instead descriptive.
“sodomite” and “bugger” have not achieved that status, in my observation. We don’t yet have “Sodomite Theory” offered as a class in colleges.
Emily K,
Having said this, then why would you say this:
You (no caps) don’t want anyone to change your (no caps) positions on orientation, yet you (no caps) are doing this very same thing to Randy. Seems like a contradiction to me.
More:
http://www.qyla.org/
http://www.thenation.com/blog/155219/against-bullying-or-loving-queer-kids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory
here’s one related to bullying: http://www.thenation.com/blog/155219/against-bullying-or-loving-queer-kids
Seems like now gays are not allowing people who are different find a direction and name for themselves without being called derogatory names.
"Queer" is a current term and, like the term "Jew," needn't be derogatory, but instead descriptive.Warren: As long as you don’t go around telling me I’m an oak tree. I’m fine with what you say about yourself – even if I do hold a different perspective of you.
ok, I get it – just not sure how helpful this analogy is to reality. What are you really trying to say or imply?
Thanks Mary.
Ann, a reflection on childhood. Some very nasty experiences climbing trees I suspect. I have no specific memories but I will find me a therapist who will help me with that.
Isn’t it possible that sexuality just like the tree of life is filled with many branches and offshoots. There are places where organism morph into other creatures, where the line between animal and plant is very thin – diverse. Isn’t it possible that sexuality has some of the same branching or origin, development, result etc…?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 2:46 pm
‘So you decide what is appropriate for an individual to say about their sexuality?”
No Mary i do not decide what others say nor do i speak for anyone other than myself.
You asked me for my opinion about claims to being born with a certain orientation and changes in orientation. And I gave it.
David, she is also defrauding the NHS.
:).
Yes it is David 🙂
:).
Yes it is David 🙂
Michael,
Honestly, I don’t think heterosexuality or homosexuality is inborn. I think these things develop based on our culture, place in time, history, family, genetics predispostitions working in combination together.
It is such a vast and kinetic subject that catching up to is is tireless.
Amen.
So do I. More than I can count.
So Leslie Pilkington is practicing psychotherapy on vulnerable Christian clients who have unwanted Same Sex attractions (or are gay, hat tip Michael). But she is doing it in a distinctly Unchristian manner.
She is not telling the truth.
There is nothing Christian or psychotherapeutic about Pilkington’s intervention if it does not meet this simple criteria.
That is common ground.
Michael,
Honestly, I don’t think heterosexuality or homosexuality is inborn. I think these things develop based on our culture, place in time, history, family, genetics predispostitions working in combination together.
It is such a vast and kinetic subject that catching up to is is tireless.
BTW: Is there any good, solid, scientific evidence that fathers cause their sons to be heterosexual? Could heterosexuality be inborn?
Ann, did you not read Warren’s request?
I suggest Warren delete these last two comments as well so the thread can veer back on topic. Otherwise I reply to your new comment, you reply, someone else chimes in, etc.
So Leslie Pilkington is practicing psychotherapy on vulnerable Christian clients who have unwanted Same Sex attractions (or are gay, hat tip Michael). But she is doing it in a distinctly Unchristian manner.
She is not telling the truth.
There is nothing Christian or psychotherapeutic about Pilkington’s intervention if it does not meet this simple criteria.
That is common ground.
BTW: Is there any good, solid, scientific evidence that fathers cause their sons to be heterosexual? Could heterosexuality be inborn?
David Roberts,
How do you apply this analogy to children in grade school or junior high school or high school? Do you think they are able to or willing to discern to the degree you are indicating or have the compassion you are referring to?
I have deleted a couple of comment that included, innocently I believe, slurs relating to African Americans, Jews, and whites. I do not believe they were used with any negative intent. However, I want to move this topic back to the topic of the post. Thanks to all commenters for the discussion on the use of the word queer but I want to move the conversation away from an area that could get offensive quickly. I am probably being a bit cautious but humor me.
Soooo true!
I agree with David, above. I sometimes use the word “queer” to refer to myself. In everyday speech, my friends and I can refer to ourselves by a whole range of terms, seriously or in jest. We’re friends.
I am not for banning any word. Just be as clear as possible about how and why you are using it. And try not to use words to inflict pain, hide the truth or promote injustice. Especially don’t use words to incite violence.
I usually use gay, sometimes homosexual. Some of my gay friends hate the word homosexual. I have even used “SSA” at times even, though I cringe a bit because it sounds like a “condition” or disease. Gay fits best for me. The way I see it, it’s all about tone of voice, the target audience and the intent of the speaker.
Nor should we abandon the use of the n word in Twain novels.
Nor should we prevent others from identifying themselves in a manner that is fitting and respectful.
Let me clarify my statement on this. My comments concerned suggestions on etiquette for people who are not gay using the word “queer” as a descriptor for GLBTs. I never suggested one should ban the word. As with the word gay, society determines the meanings of words with usage over time. This is what is happening with the word queer now.
As I specifically pointed out in my original comment, younger people seem much more comfortable with the word queer to describe GLBTs. Many use it proudly as a word redeemed from a slur to a legitimate label. However, and this is key, some older GLBTs do still find it offensive, mostly when used by a heterosexual. We don’t have to look far for analogs to this.
I would submit that Ann’s reaction to the word and request that it never be used when discussing children is not only out of date, but probably more likely to foster a feeling of shame than would come from it’s use. The truth is, while many of us have been away from school, this terminology has become more common and accepted. They would just look at us funny if we were to tell them it is not to be used.
So back to my original comment, if one is heterosexual and is compassionate enough to desire to avoid offending someone who is GLBT, then one should be careful with the target audience when using the word queer. If the audience is 40’s plus, I would suggest not initiating it’s use, though it’s perfectly fine if you discover that there is no objection.
I would have to disagree with this. The word is not the problem, it is the terms of usage. That goes equally for gay, lesbian, homosexual and a host of others. Banning the use of the word just hides the real issue.
lol. i should call it the “queer-brella.”
and for the record, my specific high school was quite welcoming of their queer children, and the elementary school my little sister attends is extremely welcoming of a transgender little girl. (and this too is under the rainbow queer umbrella.)
Oh. Ok. I wasn’t made aware this is what you were asking until your recent comments. Request denied.
Stephen,
You made a comment about Narth being a religious organization and that they believe that the only cure for homosexuality was to pray away the gay. This really surprised me and I asked you to show me something that validated your claim. Were you able to do that yet? If you don’t have time, I understand.
Emily,
I am not interested in this – it holds no value. I am interested and concerned about how children react to that word. Again, I am going to ask you to not use it when referring to children.
Emily K,
I suggest you go to an elementary school playground for the real story about using the word “Queer”. Or go to a middle school dance or a a high school football game or gym. The word encites humilitation, bullying, and worse. Again, I am going to ask you to not use the term when you are referring to children as you have now on several posts.
here’s one related to bullying: http://www.thenation.com/blog/155219/against-bullying-or-loving-queer-kids
I have posted several links to Queer Youth resources that should Warren let out of the spam queue you can explore for yourself.
I suggest visiting the Colorado Queer Youth Summit, Queer Youth Leadership Awards, Queer Youth Space, and the wikipedia page for Queer Theory.
More:
http://www.qyla.org/
http://www.thenation.com/blog/155219/against-bullying-or-loving-queer-kids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory
Some helpful resources:
http://www.queeryouth.org.uk/community/
http://www.amplifyyourvoice.org/youthresource
http://queeryouthspace.com/
sorry everyone – this is the way it should read
Emily K,
Did you read David Robert’s comment admonishing the use of the word and asked that it be used with caution, if ever? The word offends me and others. Isn’t that good enough to ask you to stop using it? If not, then please do not ever, ever use it again when referring to children. That term encites bullying – both verbal and physical in schools, playgrounds, and other places children gather. In a time when we are trying to teach children acceptance and understanding and that, if they bully with words, names, or physically, they will be held accountable. Hearing adults, even if they are in their twenties, use the word Queer, is just not acceptable or conducive to what we are trying to accomplish in eradicting bullying.
“Queer” is a current term and, like the term “Jew,” needn’t be derogatory, but instead descriptive.Emily,
The point being that a descriptive word of a person who belongs to a certain group is something that develops and grows over time.
Back in the day, when we were fighting for gay rights, I never expected children being born in the 80’s and 90’s to then begin to refer to any other group in a disrespectful manner. That was not our intent. We wanted fairness for diversity – not more negativity.
I have deleted a couple of comment that included, innocently I believe, slurs relating to African Americans, Jews, and whites. I do not believe they were used with any negative intent. However, I want to move this topic back to the topic of the post. Thanks to all commenters for the discussion on the use of the word queer but I want to move the conversation away from an area that could get offensive quickly. I am probably being a bit cautious but humor me.
Ann, “Queer” is a current term and, like the term “Jew,” needn’t be derogatory, but instead descriptive.
“sodomite” and “bugger” have not achieved that status, in my observation. We don’t yet have “Sodomite Theory” offered as a class in colleges.
Seems like now gays are not allowing people who are different find a direction and name for themselves without being called derogatory names.
Or “Queer”
Emily K,
Having said this, then why would you say this:
You (no caps) don’t want anyone to change your (no caps) positions on orientation, yet you (no caps) are doing this very same thing to Randy. Seems like a contradiction to me.
Emily, K,
OK, earlier in this thread, Michael said this about same sex attraction:
And then Stephen said this about same sex attraction:
And then David Roberts concured with this:
Would concur with them or are you saying that you (notice I didn’t use CAPS) are using the term to describe your (notice again – no CAPS) sexual orientation?
Yes I did. Before that, the common word was “sodomite,” or “pervert,” or “invert,” or “bugger,” or maybe even “dirty filthy diseased ‘it.'”
I agree with David, above. I sometimes use the word “queer” to refer to myself. In everyday speech, my friends and I can refer to ourselves by a whole range of terms, seriously or in jest. We’re friends.
I am not for banning any word. Just be as clear as possible about how and why you are using it. And try not to use words to inflict pain, hide the truth or promote injustice. Especially don’t use words to incite violence.
I usually use gay, sometimes homosexual. Some of my gay friends hate the word homosexual. I have even used “SSA” at times even, though I cringe a bit because it sounds like a “condition” or disease. Gay fits best for me. The way I see it, it’s all about tone of voice, the target audience and the intent of the speaker.
Nor should we abandon the use of the n word in Twain novels.
Nor should we prevent others from identifying themselves in a manner that is fitting and respectful.
Let me clarify my statement on this. My comments concerned suggestions on etiquette for people who are not gay using the word “queer” as a descriptor for GLBTs. I never suggested one should ban the word. As with the word gay, society determines the meanings of words with usage over time. This is what is happening with the word queer now.
As I specifically pointed out in my original comment, younger people seem much more comfortable with the word queer to describe GLBTs. Many use it proudly as a word redeemed from a slur to a legitimate label. However, and this is key, some older GLBTs do still find it offensive, mostly when used by a heterosexual. We don’t have to look far for analogs to this.
I would submit that Ann’s reaction to the word and request that it never be used when discussing children is not only out of date, but probably more likely to foster a feeling of shame than would come from it’s use. The truth is, while many of us have been away from school, this terminology has become more common and accepted. They would just look at us funny if we were to tell them it is not to be used.
So back to my original comment, if one is heterosexual and is compassionate enough to desire to avoid offending someone who is GLBT, then one should be careful with the target audience when using the word queer. If the audience is 40’s plus, I would suggest not initiating it’s use, though it’s perfectly fine if you discover that there is no objection.
I would have to disagree with this. The word is not the problem, it is the terms of usage. That goes equally for gay, lesbian, homosexual and a host of others. Banning the use of the word just hides the real issue.
and for the record, my specific high school was quite welcoming of their queer children, and the elementary school my little sister attends is extremely welcoming of a transgender little girl. (and this too is under the rainbow queer umbrella.)
Emily K,
I suggest you go to an elementary school playground for the real story about using the word “Queer”. Or go to a middle school dance or a a high school football game or gym. The word encites humilitation, bullying, and worse. Again, I am going to ask you to not use the term when you are referring to children as you have now on several posts.
I have posted several links to Queer Youth resources that should Warren let out of the spam queue you can explore for yourself.
I suggest visiting the Colorado Queer Youth Summit, Queer Youth Leadership Awards, Queer Youth Space, and the wikipedia page for Queer Theory.
Some helpful resources:
http://www.queeryouth.org.uk/community/
http://www.amplifyyourvoice.org/youthresource
http://queeryouthspace.com/
sorry everyone – this is the way it should read
Emily K,
Did you read David Robert’s comment admonishing the use of the word and asked that it be used with caution, if ever? The word offends me and others. Isn’t that good enough to ask you to stop using it? If not, then please do not ever, ever use it again when referring to children. That term encites bullying – both verbal and physical in schools, playgrounds, and other places children gather. In a time when we are trying to teach children acceptance and understanding and that, if they bully with words, names, or physically, they will be held accountable. Hearing adults, even if they are in their twenties, use the word Queer, is just not acceptable or conducive to what we are trying to accomplish in eradicting bullying.
Emily,
I agree with you that the language is not yet there for many. Did you know the word homosexual has only existed about 150 years?
Maybe YOU don’t have the language. Maybe YOUR beliefs of a homosexual pathology are difficult for you to express. The rest of us are quite clear, to ourselves and others, when it comes to “same sex attraction” what we mean by it.
People like Randy Thomas from Exodus who cling to terms like “post-gay Christian journey” aren’t trying to be clearer, but rather, the opposite – hide the fact that they will never change their sexual orientation, no matter how much prayer and therapy they undertake. If they could change these things, they would call themselves straight (which I once caught Randy doing a few years ago, before he wised up and realized this counted as lying).
Maybe YOU don’t have the language. Maybe YOUR beliefs of a homosexual pathology are difficult for you to express. The rest of us are quite clear, to ourselves and others, when it comes to “same sex attraction” what we mean by it.
People like Randy Thomas from Exodus who cling to terms like “post-gay Christian journey” aren’t trying to be clearer, but rather, the opposite – hide the fact that they will never change their sexual orientation, no matter how much prayer and therapy they undertake. If they could change these things, they would call themselves straight (which I once caught Randy doing a few years ago, before he wised up and realized this counted as lying).
We do a fairly decent job of it. And we can always endeavor to be as clear and honest as possible.
I’m not sure we have develop the language to describe the human experience.
Hey, I am all for diversity. And being clear about language. 🙂
Michael,
Don’t read so much into it. Take it as simply as possible – maybe we are a diverse people.
Mary, by “intersexed” do you mean “intermediate or atypical combinations of physical features that usually distinguish female from male”?
According to wikipedia, “This is usually understood to be congenital, involving chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies, such as diversion from typical XX-female or XY-male presentations, e.g., sex reversal (XY-female, XX-male), genital ambiguity, sex developmental differences. An intersex individual may have biological characteristics of both the male and the female sexes.”
Are you suggesting that “ex-gay/post/former” gays have such congenital, chromosomal, morphologic, genital and/or gonadal anomalies”? Do you describe yourself as such?
BTW: I do accept people as people — of equal dignity and value regardless of what labels they may or may not apply to themselves. The labels only help to describe sexual orientation (gay, bi, straight, etc.) They are not meant to define the totality or “identity” of the “person”. At least, that is not how I used these terms. I’m a gay male. My brother is a straight male. That’s all. No negative or positive implications about us as people.
Ken,
My mistake. I thought we were on the same page with a couple of ideas but I see that is not the case.
Mary,
Perhaps you missed my response in all the recent posts, but I would appreciate it if you would explain what you are referring to in this comment.
Mary# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:24 am
“You either have a short memory as to what you agreed to”
I know! I don’t like the squishy definitions either but that’s sort of what we are left with. Things aren’t so black and white as many intersexed people will tell you. there is a lot of variation in people’s lives and trying to quantify anyone in categories may not work.
What if we really saw ourselves as people. Just people. Niether Jew nor gentile, niether man nor woman, etc..etc.. just people of Christ.
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 4:57 pm
“How do you know they are backed with a lot of money?”
Because the spend a lot on anti-gay campaigns in various states around the US. Many of them have used used their anti-gay stances for fund-raising.
I do, too. I don’t buy the “behavior/identity/lifestyle” reduction — or the term SSA. I hate “SSA”. Makes it sound like a disorder or disease, which it is not. I call all of this “squishy” ex-gay lingo “Exodus Newspeak” and it has always bothered me immensely.
Warren has called their approach “reframe and resist”, not acutal “reorientation”. He’s right on that. I recently asked a long-term Exodus leader who has since left the organization if, in all his years with Exodus, he had ever met a gay man who had become heterosexual through Exodus. He understood the question clearly. His blunt answer? “Not one.” (And he used to proudly call himself “ex-gay”.)
Now they say the opposite of “homosexuality” is “holiness”, not heterosexuality. Exodus once actually officially defined “homosexuality” and “heterosexuality”. At that time (about 1991) they were clear that being homosexual was about “romantic, emotional and sexual attraction.”, Their definition of “heterosexuality”, on the other hand, said nothing of heterosexual “attraction” as part of being “ex-gay”, only the “ability to relate to the opposite sex without fear or distaste”. Heck, by that defintion, some straight people aren’t straight.
When I pointed this out to then President, Bob Davie, they just removed all definitions and have left things “squishy” ever since. As one female co-founder of Exodus admits, “Exodus has always had a problem with definitions.” Personally, I think it’s often deliberate.
Ok, yes, I have heard of them. I think the head person ( a lady ) was on Larry King once when I was watching.
The only one here that I recognize is Exodus – are they well endowed, well, monitarily that is? Also is the FRC the Family Research Center? I don’t know anything about them except I have heard their name. The others I don’t know at all. How do you know they are backed with a lot of money?
NOM. National Organization for Marriage.
What or who is NOM?
Ann –
I meant viable outside the womb. That isn’t possible until at least 27 weeks, if I”m not mistaken. And yes I knew that scientifically accurate yet irrelevant factoid already.
But congratulations on NOT changing my positions on abortion OR sexual orientation. Not even close. Way to go, champ!
Speaking of abortions – when it became known that a heart begins beating at 3 weeks gestation, that fact has changed many minds about when life begins. If a life isn’t viable, then why does it’s heart have to be stopped, and it’s life terminated? Usually a woman does not even know she is pregnant until 5-6 weeks gestation, after the heart starts beating. Before that knowledge became available, people were believing what information they had and basing their decisions on that and I would tend to think that if they knew what they know now, some women would not follow through with the abortion.
Couldn’t the same be true about the myriad of thoughts and opinions on sexual orientation? We know what we know now and our thoughts follow that knowledge. I still maintain that, when we know more, our thoughts tend to shift in one direction or the other – rarely do we stay in the middle. Right now we have very limited knowledge about orientations and yet there seems to be so many people who think they know all the answers.
This is your belief and I believe your conviction about it. Others may or may not believe you and that is why I said earlier that if there is evidence that cannot be refuted and it is widely publicized as such by a respected a credible individual, then anything anyone else would say to the contrary, would be a moot point.
Warren,
I appreciate your observations about reparative therapy. The double speak, despair, and disillusionment very much describe my experiences in ex-gay ministry counseling and professional Christian counseling. Thank you for articulating the confusing and negative results of ‘ex-gay’ counseling so well.
The views you express on your blog continue to surprise me over the years. I assumed you would defend a Christian counselor from what some view as religious persecution by her professional organization and a bias reporter.
I have my own conflicted feelings about my Christian counseling experience. In some sense I agree with Pilkington’s defense. I, like Pilkington’s clients, willing sought a conservative Christian counselor, so it is hypocritical to protest the underlying religious doctrines the counseling is based upon. However, I do think the counseling I received and the psychological theories about homosexuality that were applied were harmful.
What has continually annoyed me about the ex-gay ‘counselors’ is the tendency keep a very squishy definition. Whether they are professionally accredited like Pilkington or lay counselors, they seem to seek the best benefits of being both a religious advocate and professional therapist. It seems Pilkington is arguing, in part, that any criticism by the professional board is religious persecution. Simultaneously, she wants to keep her professional certification so she appeals to her conservative Christian clientele as a therapist with more training and certification than the average reverend or religious layman.
David B., I believe there are several recent active threads where your abortion comments would be appropriate and on topic.
I tend to agree with Stephen on this. We should also remember that the current attenuated attitude from Exodus is a relatively recent development, and their members vary widely on their acceptance of it. I’m not saying that the current status of Exodus is not an improvement, but just that we need to be honest about what it really means.
With respect Michael, I think that’s a distinction without a difference. The very fact of labeling an inherent and innate aspect of a human being’s life with the belittling label ‘SSA’ makes the point clearly enough.
To be fair, I don’t think that Exodus officially teaches that homosexuality (sexual orientation) is a “choice”. They do teach that behavior, “identity” and “lifestyle” are choices. They believe that we choose whether or not to act on or “identify” with what they refer to as “SSA”, but not that the “Same Sex Attractions” themselves are a matter or choice.
Jayhuck, exactly. And let’s not forget NOM, Ann – revenues of $8M last year raised from a very few donors whose names the organizations refuses to disclose in defiance of the courts that have found against them. Inciting hatred against us has become big business and a lot of people make very good livings from it.
The lie of ‘choice’ is central to the attack upon us. If orientation is innate then it becomes much more difficult to blame us, to call us immoral and the rest of it. Remove choice and those attacks can be clearly seen for what they are: irrational and founded upon ignorance. Hence the insistence that we ‘choose’ our ‘lifestyle’. The new lie is that the push for acceptance will somehow ‘silence’ Christians. This is as preposterous as the lie that if we can marry it will somehow destroy marriage itself. I notice that in this puff piece by a narrowly focused ‘Christian news’ organization (in other words, NOT the BBC) much is made of ‘threats’. Personally I don’t believe it. It’s a new line of attack against us, that we are somehow unhinged and determined to carry out some ‘radical’ agenda.
I don’t think it will take as long as you, David Roberts. Perhaps because I work in the theatre where the issue isn’t an issue at all. It used to be, perhaps 20 years ago. But not any more. I don’t mind queer, though I suppose it depends who’s using it. I don’t much like ‘gay’ which I find trivializing. I look forward to the day one’s orientation is like one’s eye color, an aspect of who we are and not the defining feature.
We all got used to cell phones. I daresay we can all get used to me referring to my husband. Including me. I never thought that would happen in my lifetime but it has. Thank you, Canada. And it would be happening here were it not for the well-funded efforts of organizations named above.
David Blakeslee,
The “doctor” in question dangerously flouted regulations, broke several laws, and violated the trust of some of the most vulnerable patients I know of.
Oh, and (as you put it) he KILLED BABIES for MONEY. (though I am pro-choice, it’s my understanding several of the fetuses were viable and therefor qualify as having been born.)
Yes, he should be punished. It’s an outrage to people on both sides of the abortion issue. There is no need for discussion or debate.
THIS topic, however, is a complex one and a heated one to many of those commenting, hence the greater reaction.
Perhaps you are looking for something about which to be outraged?
I couldn’t agree more Ann!
Pick any of the several well-known and often conservative Christian anti-gay groups Ann! Do you ever listen to their rhetoric, they are always suggesting that being gay is a choice! The AFA, FRC, Exodus Intl, American Vision, CWA, just to name a few
Yes, I strongly believe this – about everyone and their strongly held beliefs. Contrary to evidence pointing in another direction, some will hold onto their beliefs to accomodate their emotional comfort rather than realize they were wrong, and with that, evolve emotionally.
Ann,
Also, what makes you think that most people don’t accept it? There are lots of different opinions about this on this thread, sure, but this thread isn’t necessarily a good snapshot of the general public. If you look at different polls regarding homosexuality, in most places you find not only tolerance of it but acceptance as well. The number of cities that have passed hate crime laws, the growing public support for gay marriage to name a few…
That was my suspicion and why I questioned it.
David Roberts,
I hope I have answered your questions – if not, please let me know and I will try to articulate more and / or better. As to the issue of religious views here, I think you will see that I rarely, if ever, use any kind of religious reference to prove any opinion or bias I have – in fact, I often question the use of it by others.
Ann,
Do you also realize that if someone truly believes in something, no amount of facts to the contrary will change their mind. Belief is a powerful thing, and sometimes people hold on tightly to beliefs that are simply wrong, regardless of evidence that contradicts those beliefs
In response to the earlier question about the use of “queer” as a general descriptor for GLBTs, I have found that younger people are more likely to be comfortable with that than someone of my age (nearly 50). I still remember clearly the derogatory use of that word in a society that fully supported it’s use that way.
Depending on the community, more kids are growing up without such a harsh connection to that word. While I certainly think that is a good thing, it is by no means complete and I don’t mean to diminish the cruel treatment many still experience.
Even if the whole of society were to stop on a dime and lose all stigma and hatred of GLBTs, I suspect it would still be 50 – 100 years before our collective memory would fade enough to make things truly equal. The best we can do is set the stage for that transition.
My main point is that one should be careful with the use of that term, “queer,” as it still does pack a punch for many of us. I would suggest not initiating the use in conversation, but by the same token don’t be terribly surprised if some GLBTs (especially younger ones) use it themselves. It’s in a state of flux and I’m guessing the attraction to that term is the desire to have one word instead of many to describe a general group.
Stephen,
Yes, and IMHO, herein lies the problem of contention. While there’s quite a bit known, it is just known as opinions and theories – nothing definitive has been declared as evidence that can be widely accepted and agreed upon. At least this is my knowledge and interpretation of it.
I am unaware of a well-funded it’s a choice crowd – what organization or group of people are you referring to that is well funded and promotes the words “it’s a choice”?
Ok, I’ll go with that, thanks. Here is where I got my original take on your comment. You were replying to this:
The issue there was not causation, but whether the scientific and medical communities at large consider homosexuality to be a normal variation of human sexuality — they do. It seemed you were suggesting that, not only was this not the case, but that if so, why would there be any further argument over this issue. Considering the venue, and nature of most discussions here, I absolutely thought you were including religious views on the subject in your statement/query.
I would agree that hard, conclusive proof on the origins of sexual orientation of any type is still not clear. Thanks for the clarification.
David Roberts,
I would just like to add that, for some who are gay and content, and some who are questioning whether they are content and exploring ways to respond to that, I really don’t think any evidence is going to matter to them, as well it shouldn’t.
Ann, in science a theory is not the same as speculation. I fear that even when everything becomes known the truth will not set us free. Look how the theory of evolution is trashed. And there’s quite a lot that is already known about orientation. The problem is caused by the disinformation being put about by the extremely well-funded ‘it’s a choice’ crowd.
David Roberts,
Thank you for the clarification. I believe you now that your comment wasn’t meant as sarcasm so much as a way of punctuating a point – my sensitive nature and how you have responded to me in prior comments told me otherwise when I first read it. I am sorry.
I honestly was not thinking about religion when I made my comment. It seems to me that if the scientific and medical community have sound information and proof about the origin of orientations, and the other aspects about them, then many questions would be answered. It is my understanding that no one has this information or evidence. Right now all there is are theories and speculation and that can and does lead to lay people thinking they know the answers based on their biases. My hope would be that if these questions were answered with certitude and sound evidence by someone well respected and there was a consensus within the scientific and medical communities, regardless of what information is put forth, then speculations from other lay people who think they know the answers, would be looked upon as a moot point and the contention would subside. I did not factor in religion – now considering it, I do see where there would still be some contention as their beliefs are grounded in a different context and it supercedes any other evidence put forth or yet to be put forth or determined.
No, this is unfortunately another assumption. There was no sarcasm and it was a legitimate question.
David Blakeslee, the horror of the case in PA is rather more than I feel qualified to comment on. Besides which I feel it to be inappropriate. No one comments on a site like this to persuade others, we do it to assert our own opinions. Futile at best. I only comment about this case because it is, in my opinion, being mischaracterized by some.
I’m not aware that I accused her of anything, though earlier she did state as a matter of fact that I was being sarcastic when I was not. I’ve made my question to her clear, and I’ve read this blog for longer than either of you have been commenting, so I’m fairly clear on her style, and yours. Thank you just the same.
David,
With all due respect, I was trying to give you some perspective on Ann that you may be unaware of. Your accusation seems mean and out of place. Maybe you could familiarize yourself with more of her posts by reading them. Might give you some context in which she writes?
With all due respect Mary, the question was posed to Ann about a statement Ann made. Please be kind enough to let her respond for herself.
Old terrain to revisit. Are we persuading each other?
74 comments, now 75.
BTW, any thoughts about the guy who killed all those babies, for money?
I have looked them over, not many…
Outrage lately at this sight and commenting on it seems inspired more by the possibility of cruelty, rather than actual cruelty.
Perhaps our outrage is disproportionate to the offenses we discuss; perhaps inversely so.
I have read Ann’s post here for several years. To the best of my knowledge, her questions and statments are truly sincere without malice. There is no armed truth or veiled meaning in her posts.
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 9:02 am
“I wish there was some established, credible and widely accepted facts on orientation so there would not be such a clash between people who think they have all the answers. ”
Did you even attempt to look at the link I posted, Ann? Simply because the exact mechanism(s) about what causes a person to have a particular orientation are not known, does not mean nothing is known about it. And simply because what is known about orientation doesn’t fit exactly with you or a friend of yours doesn’t invalidate what is known. That’s like saying “my uncle lou smoked 2 packs a day all his life and lived to be 85. Therefore nothing is known about lung cancer and cigarettes.”
Where do you find these “people”. In my church (the one I currently attend), we are very concerned over global climate.
Not only is there a difference in “evangelicals” and others but keep in mind that the median age of evangelicals is changing and that effects thinking on current trends such as global warming, homosexuality etc…
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 8:40 am
listen to the radio clip Warren linked to Ann. Specifically the intro by the interviewer. He talks about how some believe gays can convert to being straight (with help from the right person) then introduces Pilkington as a therapist who does that. Nowhere in the interview does she dispute it (and she heard the intro because she comments on it).
@Ann
Believe it or not, that wasn’t meant as sarcasm so much as just a witty way of punctuating the point. Our history is so obviously full of religious contradiction of scientific conclusions that your apparent assumption that no such contention should exist strains credulity.
Could it instead be that your original comment was a sarcastic statement thinly veiled as a legitimate question?
Agreed.
I am not sure how Christian love is different from other kinds of love toward people. It seems rather arrogant to me that to be loving, one has to be identified as a Christian. If someone is an activist, then I strongly disagree that they are struggling with homosexuality – I could be wrong and I am sure there are the exceptions, however, this seems like a contradiction to me.
Dave: Yes, I had daddy issues with the big aloof oak tree that brought me into the world. All he did was stand there.
I tend to agree with Stephen on this. We should also remember that the current attenuated attitude from Exodus is a relatively recent development, and their members vary widely on their acceptance of it. I’m not saying that the current status of Exodus is not an improvement, but just that we need to be honest about what it really means.
Christian love in action:
“Several of us plan to bring a token of Christian love (like a small bag of cookies or other treats) to share with homosexual activists who we’ll be encountering Monday,” the group wrote in a newsletter to supporters. “It’s time we dispel lies about Christians, by tangibly showing love to people who struggle with homosexuality.”
Note the tell-tale phrase ‘struggle with homosexuality’. This is what NARTHolepsy enables. It seems innocent enough for one person to ‘struggle’. Next thing you know, I can’t get married and school kids are killing themselves.
I say again, good for this reporter to expose this fraud. He wasn’t being underhanded, SHE was. She was defrauding the NHS by peddling quack cures based on born-again thinking. Let’s hope she has to refund the money she stole. And let’s hope that this serves as a warning to people in the UK that they are after their children to brainwash them into lives of misery and self-loathing.
Is it possible for you to ask your question wihout the sarcasm?
Jayhuck,
Yes, I do – it still seems to remain within their community though instead of being widely accepted.
Ken,
I suspect differently. I think there is more of an interest now than ever. I wish there was some established, credible and widely accepted facts on orientation so there would not be such a clash between people who think they have all the answers. The problem is we don’t have really any answers – just speculation. I believe someone who tells me they feel as though they are gay and were born with the orientation they have – I also believe people who tell me they are gay and do not think they were born with an orientation – I believe people who tell me they know why they are gay and it is because of early life experiences – I believe people who tell me they have always thought they would never fall in love with a person of the opposite gender and were surprised when they did – I believe people who tell me they could never fall in love with someone of the same gender and were surprised when they did. In other words, each person has a story and nothing scientific or medical can really back it up or dismiss it. It would be so much better if there was a widely known, acknowledged, and accepted medical and scientific reason for orientations – that way I think all the speculations and opinions and assumptions and judgments could be wiped out.
Ken,
If she is telling patients/clients that she can convert them, then I do disagree with this terminology and method. She does not have the power to convert anyone. Any change or shift or modification in behavior or thought comes from the patient – not a therapist. My knowledge now, subject to change with additional information, is that she used words that could also be interpreted in another way to an individual who is exploring other ways to respond to unwanted same gender attraction and/or sexual behavior.
David Blakeslee,
The “doctor” in question dangerously flouted regulations, broke several laws, and violated the trust of some of the most vulnerable patients I know of.
Oh, and (as you put it) he KILLED BABIES for MONEY. (though I am pro-choice, it’s my understanding several of the fetuses were viable and therefor qualify as having been born.)
Yes, he should be punished. It’s an outrage to people on both sides of the abortion issue. There is no need for discussion or debate.
THIS topic, however, is a complex one and a heated one to many of those commenting, hence the greater reaction.
Ann,
Also, what makes you think that most people don’t accept it? There are lots of different opinions about this on this thread, sure, but this thread isn’t necessarily a good snapshot of the general public. If you look at different polls regarding homosexuality, in most places you find not only tolerance of it but acceptance as well. The number of cities that have passed hate crime laws, the growing public support for gay marriage to name a few…
That was my suspicion and why I questioned it.
Ok, I’ll go with that, thanks. Here is where I got my original take on your comment. You were replying to this:
The issue there was not causation, but whether the scientific and medical communities at large consider homosexuality to be a normal variation of human sexuality — they do. It seemed you were suggesting that, not only was this not the case, but that if so, why would there be any further argument over this issue. Considering the venue, and nature of most discussions here, I absolutely thought you were including religious views on the subject in your statement/query.
I would agree that hard, conclusive proof on the origins of sexual orientation of any type is still not clear. Thanks for the clarification.
David Blakeslee, the horror of the case in PA is rather more than I feel qualified to comment on. Besides which I feel it to be inappropriate. No one comments on a site like this to persuade others, we do it to assert our own opinions. Futile at best. I only comment about this case because it is, in my opinion, being mischaracterized by some.
@Ann
Believe it or not, that wasn’t meant as sarcasm so much as just a witty way of punctuating the point. Our history is so obviously full of religious contradiction of scientific conclusions that your apparent assumption that no such contention should exist strains credulity.
Could it instead be that your original comment was a sarcastic statement thinly veiled as a legitimate question?
As long as conservatives push for some kind of simplistic reason and change, they work to further the gay community. I have to smile at this 🙂
Ann,
Do you realize that that the the vast majority of scientific and medical communities DO endorse and accept this?
Ann,
What does this mean?
Parent-child break – 40 years later and this idea still exists – WOW – despite the evidence of so many groups – It says a great deal about religion
Yes – I mean, you find a great deal of conservative Evangelicals not agreeing the the majority of the scientific community when it comes to climate change. That doesn’t make climate change a fantasy – LOL
Isn’t it correct to say that the vast majority of NARTH’s membership are pastors and other laymen? Warren?
@Ann
There is no serious contention on the issue among scientific and medical communities, the contention is almost entirely over religious interpretations and those who hold them. Are you suggesting that religious contention (on any subject) commonly ceases after scientific enlightenment? What world have you been living in?
RE: NARTH, the member numbers are fuzzy, but several years ago, I was told that there “around 1000 members” mostly pastors and laypeople. The professional members (those with degrees in mental health) were under 200.
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:27 am
“Whether it be this particular UK therapist or the one around the corner, the role of the therapist should never be to “convert” a client/patient.”
Then do you disagree with Pilkington’s efforts to convert gay men into straight men?
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:38 am
“If this is true, then why don’t most people know and accept it based on this significant scientific evidence? ”
I don’t know. I suspect because most people don’t read scientific journals and aren’t interested research regarding sexuality.
“Does it need to be sought out or is it published in established and credible scientific and medical journals? I have not heard this on the news or read it as a news story.”
You can go to the APA web site (apa.org) and search on homosexuality. And most other web sites for major medical and counseling organizations will have similar references.
Mary# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:24 am
“You either have a short memory as to what you agreed to”
well i have a short memory. because I have no idea what you are talking about.
If this is true, then why don’t most people know and accept it based on this significant scientific evidence? Does it need to be sought out or is it published in established and credible scientific and medical journals? I have not heard this on the news or read it as a news story. It would seem to put most speculation to bed and stop all the contention surrounding this issue if the scientific and medical communities endorsed what you are saying.
Ken,
Whether it be this particular UK therapist or the one around the corner, the role of the therapist should never be to “convert” a client/patient.
Teresa,
1 ) I don’t consider myself gay and have no attraction to women anymore
2) I implied nothing about other people only that for some being gay and acting out on that is not acceptable. I did not call it disorded.
3) There is a whole bunch of giftedness regardless of a person’s sexuality. Not wanting to practice homosexual acts has nothing to do with one’s talent’s – I don’t think.
Ken,
We’ve been through this several times. You either have a short memory as to what you agreed to or as I said last night – you simply want to argue. Assuming that a heterosexual person can only have issues being heterosexual then you’ve really limited your scope. Some people think about sex constantly and want to lessen that, others obsess about certain fetishes and want relief from those etc.. etc..
as for this statment
It is a normal variation – yes. But for some it is not pleasant. And it is a minority of sexual variation.
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 8:36 pm
“There are lots of heterosexuals who seeks help with their particular sexual issues.”
And how many therapists seek to “help” them by attempting to convert them to homosexuality?
“I don’t see anything wrong in going to a therapist who holds the same view on sexuality as the client.”
Then you don’t understand the role of a (n accredited) therapist. A therapist is someone who helps a client achieve rational and reasonable goals using methods based on sound, scientific principles. Not someone who simply tells the client what he or she wants to hear.
“There is no scientific evidence enough on one side or the other to suggest that one has to see homosexuality as normal or not normal. ”
On the contrary, there is significant scientific evidence that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality. And that is why most (all) major psychiatric, psychological,medical, and counseling organizations consider it to be normal. I suspect you don’t know about the research because you don’t really want to know about it.
“So, I would not want someone who is gay telling a therpaist that the therapist violated ethical rules when that gay person knew in advance what position that therapist had on the subject. Go or don’t go – but don’t assume that everyone is going to find the therapist unethical. ”
While Strudwick may have an opinion on whether or not Pilkington was unethical, he doesn’t decide that. He reported her actions to the BACP and they will decide if she violated the ethical guidelines. Personally, I think the fact she has her own son as a client should raise all sorts of red-flags about her ethics.
Well, I sincerely doubt that the thugs who bully gay individuals are practicing their religious teachings. Their problem is vastly different than what I am referring to. I am talking about the individuals who go to Warren or other therapists to live in congruence with their values. They are not happy with these unwanted feelings and desires and their reasons are personal, not to be dismissed or diminished by others who might want to live their life differently.
Theresa,
There is nothing wrong with being gay unless the gay person thinks it is. For anyone else who has an opinion about it, leave it as that – only an opinion. I believe, and could be wrong, that Mary is referring to the individual who, for their own personal reasons, is not content with their unwanted same gender desires, not the individual who is content and at peace with it. As to your question about sex, one does not have to have it (sex) to determine their worth, regardless what their orientation is or isn’t or might become.
Mary,
I understand you are unhappy being gay, but is that because you want to marry? If so, it would be very easy for you to find someone of the opposite sex to marry, and have children; far easier for a gay woman, than a gay man.
Are you implying, Mary, that the condition of homosexuality makes the whole person disordered, or only the behavior?
Why can’t someone be happy being gay, but be chaste … and, chaste partnered?
Why don’t people see that being gay has many great talents associated with it … creative genius in many areas? In my opinion, there’s a whole boatload of giftedness that comes along with being gay, but most people just don’t get beyond the ‘sex’ issue.
That isn’t actually true. Most of the people who seem to have a problem with homosexuality aren’t homosexuals themselves, rather, their religion teaches them as much! I know vastly more straight people who are against living as a practicing gay person than I do homosexuals who are unhappy with their sexuality. ACtually, I don’t know any gay people who are unhappy with their sexuality but I know they are out there.
Daddy issues! LOL!
Yes – I mean, you find a great deal of conservative Evangelicals not agreeing the the majority of the scientific community when it comes to climate change. That doesn’t make climate change a fantasy – LOL
Warren said :
Perhaps it happened to you when you were just a sapling??? 🙂
Dave
For some, it does not fit in with their belief system.
I know a mother who has a gay son. He pines away for someone to love but feels it is against his religion. His mother has encouraged him to accept being gay and go find someone to love. Her thinking is “Why doesn’t he just go to church that believes it is acceptable?”
Well, that just isn’t what he believes. He is more comfortable in his faith though his desires are in conflict with his faith. It’s his choice. He is fuly aware of gay affirming therapy.
Yes the term “queer” is acceptable. It’s also acceptable for straights to use, in my opinion, when referencing the LGBT community. See also: “Queer Theory” or “Queer Studies,” classes and scholastic disciplines offered at many colleges, including those in the Ivy League.
But nobody ever says “I’m straight but I wish I were gay instead, so I’ll go to therapy to try to make that possible, at least on SOME level.” It’s always someone whose attractions are same-sex (or predominantly same-sex” that wants it to go away.
There is no scientific evidence enough on one side or the other to suggest that one has to see homosexuality as normal or not normal.
Why wouldn’t it be “normal?” Why the need to rid one’s self of same sex attraction? I don’t understand why. I understand people think it can happen (just like Warren can think he’s an Oak tree). I don’t understand WHY it would need to happen.
Emily,
Is the use of the word “queer”, especially as it relates to children, and acceptable term in the gay community?
My guess would be that they it is presented that way by the individual who is other than hetero and having a problem with it. If someone is just opining on sexual orientation – then it should be left at that, someone has an opinion.
There are lots of heterosexuals who seeks help with their particular sexual issues.
Ken,
I don’t see anything wrong in going to a therapist who holds the same view on sexuality as the client. Unless of course they beleive that pedophelia, rape etc… etc… is acceptable.
And I would not, would not ever, want to see a therapist who told me that I had to live with being gay because that’s the way it is. There is no scientific evidence enough on one side or the other to suggest that one has to see homosexuality as normal or not normal.
So, I would not want someone who is gay telling a therpaist that the therapist violated ethical rules when that gay person knew in advance what position that therapist had on the subject. Go or don’t go – but don’t assume that everyone is going to find the therapist unethical.
We all have varying opinions on the origins and developement of sexuality.
Emily K,
To get the most accurate answers, these questions should probably be posed to the individual rather than an open forum where there are biases.
Nothing. There’s nothing wrong with being gay, or straight, or bi, or asexual.
Which means nobody should feel compelled to “go straight” if they first were gay. Again: What do people treat all sexual orientations except for Hetero to be “problems”? Well?
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:27 am
“Whether it be this particular UK therapist or the one around the corner, the role of the therapist should never be to “convert” a client/patient.”
Then do you disagree with Pilkington’s efforts to convert gay men into straight men?
Ann# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:38 am
“If this is true, then why don’t most people know and accept it based on this significant scientific evidence? ”
I don’t know. I suspect because most people don’t read scientific journals and aren’t interested research regarding sexuality.
“Does it need to be sought out or is it published in established and credible scientific and medical journals? I have not heard this on the news or read it as a news story.”
You can go to the APA web site (apa.org) and search on homosexuality. And most other web sites for major medical and counseling organizations will have similar references.
Mary,
To be clear I don’t particularly care what you or any individual believes about why he or she has a certain orientation. However, I do care when professional therapists spread misleading or false information about sexual orientation,especially if they are basing therapy on that information.
Now as to the issue of people being upset about conversion therapy, i’ll give you the following hypothetical:
lets say a dr. sets up a clinic to help black people become white. Can you imagine how some people (and civil rights organizations) might be upset about that? And what if the dr. justifies his practice by saying “If black people want to be that way then fine, I’m merely providing a service for people who aren’t happy being black and helping them in their choice to be white” and then gives a bunch stats about how blacks have more problems with drugs, less education, higher crime rates etc. Do you see how some might find that offensive?
Mary# ~ Jan 24, 2011 at 12:24 am
“You either have a short memory as to what you agreed to”
well i have a short memory. because I have no idea what you are talking about.
If this is true, then why don’t most people know and accept it based on this significant scientific evidence? Does it need to be sought out or is it published in established and credible scientific and medical journals? I have not heard this on the news or read it as a news story. It would seem to put most speculation to bed and stop all the contention surrounding this issue if the scientific and medical communities endorsed what you are saying.
Teresa,
1 ) I don’t consider myself gay and have no attraction to women anymore
2) I implied nothing about other people only that for some being gay and acting out on that is not acceptable. I did not call it disorded.
3) There is a whole bunch of giftedness regardless of a person’s sexuality. Not wanting to practice homosexual acts has nothing to do with one’s talent’s – I don’t think.
Ken,
We’ve been through this several times. You either have a short memory as to what you agreed to or as I said last night – you simply want to argue. Assuming that a heterosexual person can only have issues being heterosexual then you’ve really limited your scope. Some people think about sex constantly and want to lessen that, others obsess about certain fetishes and want relief from those etc.. etc..
as for this statment
It is a normal variation – yes. But for some it is not pleasant. And it is a minority of sexual variation.
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 8:36 pm
“There are lots of heterosexuals who seeks help with their particular sexual issues.”
And how many therapists seek to “help” them by attempting to convert them to homosexuality?
“I don’t see anything wrong in going to a therapist who holds the same view on sexuality as the client.”
Then you don’t understand the role of a (n accredited) therapist. A therapist is someone who helps a client achieve rational and reasonable goals using methods based on sound, scientific principles. Not someone who simply tells the client what he or she wants to hear.
“There is no scientific evidence enough on one side or the other to suggest that one has to see homosexuality as normal or not normal. ”
On the contrary, there is significant scientific evidence that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality. And that is why most (all) major psychiatric, psychological,medical, and counseling organizations consider it to be normal. I suspect you don’t know about the research because you don’t really want to know about it.
“So, I would not want someone who is gay telling a therpaist that the therapist violated ethical rules when that gay person knew in advance what position that therapist had on the subject. Go or don’t go – but don’t assume that everyone is going to find the therapist unethical. ”
While Strudwick may have an opinion on whether or not Pilkington was unethical, he doesn’t decide that. He reported her actions to the BACP and they will decide if she violated the ethical guidelines. Personally, I think the fact she has her own son as a client should raise all sorts of red-flags about her ethics.
Well, I sincerely doubt that the thugs who bully gay individuals are practicing their religious teachings. Their problem is vastly different than what I am referring to. I am talking about the individuals who go to Warren or other therapists to live in congruence with their values. They are not happy with these unwanted feelings and desires and their reasons are personal, not to be dismissed or diminished by others who might want to live their life differently.
Theresa,
There is nothing wrong with being gay unless the gay person thinks it is. For anyone else who has an opinion about it, leave it as that – only an opinion. I believe, and could be wrong, that Mary is referring to the individual who, for their own personal reasons, is not content with their unwanted same gender desires, not the individual who is content and at peace with it. As to your question about sex, one does not have to have it (sex) to determine their worth, regardless what their orientation is or isn’t or might become.
From Warren’s original post:-
“However, finding pain in the life of someone who is gay does not mean that it relates to the cause of the sexual orientation.”
This is perhaps the crucial statement. I might also add that ‘finding pain’ does not mean that the person’s sexual orientation is the cause of that pain. The ’cause’ might an external/environmental factor, possibly completely unrelated to sexual orientation. A good therapist would ‘spot’ that if this were the case, rather than looking only at ’causes of same-sexual orientation’.
I’m not sure that ‘the beliefs of the therapist’ should really be a factor in professional psychotherapy (especially when that therapy is funded by the state); the central concern must be to achieve the best possible outcome for the client. My understanding is that so doing requires that the client’s beliefs and values be taken very seriously. Those of the therapist are incidental; the duty of the therapist is to operate to the highest professional standards, putting the client’s well-being first.
Mary,
I understand you are unhappy being gay, but is that because you want to marry? If so, it would be very easy for you to find someone of the opposite sex to marry, and have children; far easier for a gay woman, than a gay man.
Are you implying, Mary, that the condition of homosexuality makes the whole person disordered, or only the behavior?
Why can’t someone be happy being gay, but be chaste … and, chaste partnered?
Why don’t people see that being gay has many great talents associated with it … creative genius in many areas? In my opinion, there’s a whole boatload of giftedness that comes along with being gay, but most people just don’t get beyond the ‘sex’ issue.
A person may disagree with what I say is the origin of my sexuality but that does not make them more accurate either. And if that is the case, don’t I have a right to seek out a therapist who’s
Mary –
Of course it is. I don’t think Emily was suggesting otherwise, was she?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 4:43 pm
“If we don’t know the origin and development of sexuality, should gays go around saying they were born that way. Really I was was trying to get you to see that you are deciding for gays what they should say about their sexuality.”
Should Warren go around saying: “I am an oak tree”? He is certainly free to claim that. However, just because he says he is an oak tree, does that make it true?
“Really I was was trying to get you to see that you are deciding for gays what they should say about their sexuality.”
No, i was suggesting a much more accurate statement. This whole thread was started by my statement (which I stand by), that no one knows what causes a person to have a particular orientation. And I do include gay people when I say “no one.”
Emily –
Quite so: some people are very much at ease with their same-sexual orientation (and are very responsible and caring in how they conduct their human relationships generally – as were their parents), DESPITE the best efforts of some others who wish to ‘make it a problem’.
Emily,
On the flip side, think of it this way.
What’s wrong with not being gay?
Emily,
I have gay friends who are happily gay. If that’s okay for them – isn’t it okay for me to be happily not gay? They understand that I am not making a statement about them when I speak of my own life and circumstances – I truly am speaking about myself.
Isn’t that acceptable, too?
Daddy issues! LOL!
Why not? What is wrong with it?
I really don’t understand why people put all this negative weight on non-heterosexual orientations. Really. I don’t get it. Maybe it’s my age. (I’m in my 20s and have been out since I was in my teens, and was never bullied for it, nor rejected by anybody, but was rather treated the same way as my straight siblings).
“Daddy Issues,” huh? Well isn’t THAT a convenient way of relieving herself of any blame.
Isn’t it interesting that so many of these proponents of reparative “therapy” have queer children?
-Arthur “Abba” Goldberg
-Elaine Berk
-Charles Socarides
-Pilkington
-Regina Griggs
I’m sure there are more.
The point is that if origin and developement are so unknown and gays go around saying they were born that way (without much adieu) then isn’t okay for people like myself to say – I wasn’t born gay but circumstances in my developement contributed to those feelings – (without much adieu) or strain against gays?
Ken – do you mind telling me how old are you?
Warren said :
Perhaps it happened to you when you were just a sapling??? 🙂
Dave
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 4:29 pm
“Ken, I did not ask for your opinion about claims to being born gay. ”
Then what where you asking for, when you asked this question?
“So gay people should not go around saying they were born gay and that it is unchangeable?”
Because what i gave you was an opinion, based on my knowledge of the current state of scientific understanding about sexual orientation.
prior to your question, the discussion was about the (lack of) understanding of what causes a person to have a particular orientation.
Ken,
In other words –
If we don’t know the origin and development of sexuality, should gays go around saying they were born that way. Really I was was trying to get you to see that you are deciding for gays what they should say about their sexuality. You provided how they should answer the question. Although – most gay people who are satisfied with their sexuality will tell you that they were born that way.
And in almost the same breath – by saying that we don’t know what the origin and development of sexuality really is, is it okay if on the flip side for others that they say – I don’t want this in my life. I don’t want this as an option for coupling. I don’t think I was born this way.
ok, I get it – just not sure how helpful this analogy is to reality. What are you really trying to say or imply?
Then should anyone decide for me where I should go to a therapist? Having knowledge that a therapist is religiously based and views homosexual acts as immoral – is that wrong for me to go to a therapist who upholds that opinion? You see, I also think it is immoral for me to act out in any homosexual
way.
Ken, I did not ask for your opinion about claims to being born gay. I asked if it was appropriate for you to tell others how they saw and viewed their sexuality.
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 2:46 pm
‘So you decide what is appropriate for an individual to say about their sexuality?”
No Mary i do not decide what others say nor do i speak for anyone other than myself.
You asked me for my opinion about claims to being born with a certain orientation and changes in orientation. And I gave it.
Thanks Mary.
Ann, a reflection on childhood. Some very nasty experiences climbing trees I suspect. I have no specific memories but I will find me a therapist who will help me with that.
Isn’t it possible that sexuality just like the tree of life is filled with many branches and offshoots. There are places where organism morph into other creatures, where the line between animal and plant is very thin – diverse. Isn’t it possible that sexuality has some of the same branching or origin, development, result etc…?
How did you come to this decision?
Emily,
Is the use of the word “queer”, especially as it relates to children, and acceptable term in the gay community?
Warren: As long as you don’t go around telling me I’m an oak tree. I’m fine with what you say about yourself – even if I do hold a different perspective of you.
Ken,
I will be the first one to say I have no real answers as I think each individual has their own set of circumstances, motivations, and desires about how they want to live their life – and each person determines how they want to do that, regardless of their set of circumstances. Change is the big word here – I don’t think it should be overstated or understated and certainly successful change should not be limited to a complete and total reversal of desire or attraction. There are many characteristics that can be applied to how someone has felt their whole life and not sure if it can be changed – their native language, culture, religious beliefs, personality traits, etc. If I go to China and learn that language out of neccessity, I might very well always have an accent, as well as often reverting back to words in English. I feel as though I was born with this language even though I know innately that is not true.
As I have said before, gay people who are content with their orientation and their lives might not understand the desire of others who are not. To them, the words and phrases and labels that are negatively applied to them are offensive and disheartening and unfair and often uncivil and bullying. Gay people understand this kind of hurt, therefore, I am always perplexed as to why they would do it as well. There are a lot of people in between the ones who go to either extreme in voicing – often yelling – how right they are in their opinions about sexual orientation. Perhaps, if we listen to them instead of the ones who think they have all the answers for everybody, we could understand each other better and see that there is a place for everyone on this earth to live in accordance to their own values and happiness.
By the way – your cellular structure looks nothing like an oak. That’s definable.
I understand where you are going with your statement Warren but the point I am trying to make is that it is up to no one except the individual to define what and how their sexual life is to them.
Seems like a double standard when it comes to people who don’t accept their homosexuality.
Mary: I have decided I am a tree. An oak, I think.
So you decide what is appropriate for an individual to say about their sexuality?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 2:08 pm
” ” i don’t think so”
So gay people should not go around saying they were born gay and that it is unchangeable?”
no. a more accurate statement would be that they felt that way all their lives and they think they were born that way. And that if change is possible, it is very rare and highly unlikely.
Of course the same applies to straights. Of course straight people don’t ever seem to need to justify being who they are, do they?
So gay people should not go around saying they were born gay and that it is unchangeable?
Mary,
I think everyone should be mindful of this question/statement. There has been no definitive, established medical or scientific statement that indicates otherwise. When there is, I will be the first to sign up and on to it.
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 11:37 am
” ” And as of yet no one really knows exactly how a person’s orientation is formed”
And, a person could determine that for themselves, right?”
i don’t think so. If researchers spent years studying orientation and still haven’t come up with an answer, I don’t see how one person is going to know the answer.
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 4:43 pm
“If we don’t know the origin and development of sexuality, should gays go around saying they were born that way. Really I was was trying to get you to see that you are deciding for gays what they should say about their sexuality.”
Should Warren go around saying: “I am an oak tree”? He is certainly free to claim that. However, just because he says he is an oak tree, does that make it true?
“Really I was was trying to get you to see that you are deciding for gays what they should say about their sexuality.”
No, i was suggesting a much more accurate statement. This whole thread was started by my statement (which I stand by), that no one knows what causes a person to have a particular orientation. And I do include gay people when I say “no one.”
Emily –
Quite so: some people are very much at ease with their same-sexual orientation (and are very responsible and caring in how they conduct their human relationships generally – as were their parents), DESPITE the best efforts of some others who wish to ‘make it a problem’.
Dr. Throckmorton,
I know people who left their faith, and all attached to it as well. The despair and betrayal they feel about this unmet expectation can leave them bitter and defensive, and sometimes on a path of self destruction. While I wish this wasn’t the case, I certainly understand where they are coming from. I would also like to point out that religion, per se, is not to blame, rather the people promoting it as the solution to a u-turn in our attractions should be the ones held responsible. If a therapist or counselor uses religious techniques instead of theraputic, as we know it, techniques (cognitive, etc.), then why do they need an education and ongoing education in the field of ppsychology? If a couple (gay or straight) went to a therapist to resolve issues in their relationship, and only religious techniques were used, would they receive the full benefit of what a therapist is there for? I understand someone wanting to go to a therapist/counselor who has a religious connection and that is part of the beginning and ending of a session (prayer), but do not understand the benefit of the session if traditional theraputic techniques are not used – how can anyone become self aware, etc.?
Emily,
On the flip side, think of it this way.
What’s wrong with not being gay?
Emily,
I have gay friends who are happily gay. If that’s okay for them – isn’t it okay for me to be happily not gay? They understand that I am not making a statement about them when I speak of my own life and circumstances – I truly am speaking about myself.
Isn’t that acceptable, too?
Why not? What is wrong with it?
I really don’t understand why people put all this negative weight on non-heterosexual orientations. Really. I don’t get it. Maybe it’s my age. (I’m in my 20s and have been out since I was in my teens, and was never bullied for it, nor rejected by anybody, but was rather treated the same way as my straight siblings).
“Daddy Issues,” huh? Well isn’t THAT a convenient way of relieving herself of any blame.
Isn’t it interesting that so many of these proponents of reparative “therapy” have queer children?
-Arthur “Abba” Goldberg
-Elaine Berk
-Charles Socarides
-Pilkington
-Regina Griggs
I’m sure there are more.
Ken,
In other words –
If we don’t know the origin and development of sexuality, should gays go around saying they were born that way. Really I was was trying to get you to see that you are deciding for gays what they should say about their sexuality. You provided how they should answer the question. Although – most gay people who are satisfied with their sexuality will tell you that they were born that way.
And in almost the same breath – by saying that we don’t know what the origin and development of sexuality really is, is it okay if on the flip side for others that they say – I don’t want this in my life. I don’t want this as an option for coupling. I don’t think I was born this way.
And, a person could determine that for themselves, right?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 11:20 am
“Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that the condition of sexuality stems from a variety of sources?”
Yes. It is clear from the research that there are a variety of factors that determine a person’s orientation. And as of yet no one really knows exactly how a person’s orientation is formed.
Then should anyone decide for me where I should go to a therapist? Having knowledge that a therapist is religiously based and views homosexual acts as immoral – is that wrong for me to go to a therapist who upholds that opinion? You see, I also think it is immoral for me to act out in any homosexual
way.
Ken, I did not ask for your opinion about claims to being born gay. I asked if it was appropriate for you to tell others how they saw and viewed their sexuality.
Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that the condition of sexuality stems from a variety of sources?
Agreed. Not everyone falls into each theory.
How did you come to this decision?
You can read about the witness intimidation here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349012/Lesley-Pilkington-Gay-conversion-trial-halted-witness-intimidated.html
(note the daily mail and several other british papers do refer to it as a trial).
As to the radio interview, I found several things disturbing about it. Foremost is the fact that she is treating her own son.
Also, it is worse than simply having to manufacture problems with the parents (specifically the father). Years ago, I heard Nicolosi claim (in a tv interview) that he could show how any gay man had a broken relationship with his father. So if the client doesn’t have issues with his father, the therapist will probe until they “find” one, which is very dangerous. Especially, if the therapist finds it was the father missing the 1st grade play, or a baseball game or some other such trivial event, that triggered the rift, because now the therapist has over emphasized the significance of these events in the clients mind. And when the therapy doesn’t work (which it won’t in most cases, if any at all), there is now a rift between parent and child, which didn’t exist before the therapy.
Ken,
I will be the first one to say I have no real answers as I think each individual has their own set of circumstances, motivations, and desires about how they want to live their life – and each person determines how they want to do that, regardless of their set of circumstances. Change is the big word here – I don’t think it should be overstated or understated and certainly successful change should not be limited to a complete and total reversal of desire or attraction. There are many characteristics that can be applied to how someone has felt their whole life and not sure if it can be changed – their native language, culture, religious beliefs, personality traits, etc. If I go to China and learn that language out of neccessity, I might very well always have an accent, as well as often reverting back to words in English. I feel as though I was born with this language even though I know innately that is not true.
As I have said before, gay people who are content with their orientation and their lives might not understand the desire of others who are not. To them, the words and phrases and labels that are negatively applied to them are offensive and disheartening and unfair and often uncivil and bullying. Gay people understand this kind of hurt, therefore, I am always perplexed as to why they would do it as well. There are a lot of people in between the ones who go to either extreme in voicing – often yelling – how right they are in their opinions about sexual orientation. Perhaps, if we listen to them instead of the ones who think they have all the answers for everybody, we could understand each other better and see that there is a place for everyone on this earth to live in accordance to their own values and happiness.
By the way – your cellular structure looks nothing like an oak. That’s definable.
I understand where you are going with your statement Warren but the point I am trying to make is that it is up to no one except the individual to define what and how their sexual life is to them.
Seems like a double standard when it comes to people who don’t accept their homosexuality.
Mary: I have decided I am a tree. An oak, I think.
So you decide what is appropriate for an individual to say about their sexuality?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 2:08 pm
” ” i don’t think so”
So gay people should not go around saying they were born gay and that it is unchangeable?”
no. a more accurate statement would be that they felt that way all their lives and they think they were born that way. And that if change is possible, it is very rare and highly unlikely.
Of course the same applies to straights. Of course straight people don’t ever seem to need to justify being who they are, do they?
So gay people should not go around saying they were born gay and that it is unchangeable?
Mary,
I think everyone should be mindful of this question/statement. There has been no definitive, established medical or scientific statement that indicates otherwise. When there is, I will be the first to sign up and on to it.
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 11:37 am
” ” And as of yet no one really knows exactly how a person’s orientation is formed”
And, a person could determine that for themselves, right?”
i don’t think so. If researchers spent years studying orientation and still haven’t come up with an answer, I don’t see how one person is going to know the answer.
Dr. Throckmorton,
I know people who left their faith, and all attached to it as well. The despair and betrayal they feel about this unmet expectation can leave them bitter and defensive, and sometimes on a path of self destruction. While I wish this wasn’t the case, I certainly understand where they are coming from. I would also like to point out that religion, per se, is not to blame, rather the people promoting it as the solution to a u-turn in our attractions should be the ones held responsible. If a therapist or counselor uses religious techniques instead of theraputic, as we know it, techniques (cognitive, etc.), then why do they need an education and ongoing education in the field of ppsychology? If a couple (gay or straight) went to a therapist to resolve issues in their relationship, and only religious techniques were used, would they receive the full benefit of what a therapist is there for? I understand someone wanting to go to a therapist/counselor who has a religious connection and that is part of the beginning and ending of a session (prayer), but do not understand the benefit of the session if traditional theraputic techniques are not used – how can anyone become self aware, etc.?
And, a person could determine that for themselves, right?
Mary# ~ Jan 23, 2011 at 11:20 am
“Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that the condition of sexuality stems from a variety of sources?”
Yes. It is clear from the research that there are a variety of factors that determine a person’s orientation. And as of yet no one really knows exactly how a person’s orientation is formed.
Agreed. Not everyone falls into each theory.