I can’t think of how to start this so I will just post the link and grieve.
Parents believe bullies drove son to take his life
The eighth-grader killed himself last week. He shot himself in the head after enduring what his mother and stepfather say was constant harassment from four other students at Hamilton Middle School in the Cypress-Fairbanks Independent School District.
Brown, his family said, was “bullied to death” — picked on for his small size, his religion and because he did not wear designer clothes and shoes. Kids also accused him of being gay, some of them performing mock gay acts on him in his physical education class, his mother and stepfather said.
The 13-year-old’s parents said they had complained about the bullying to Hamilton Middle School officials during the past 18 months, but claimed their concerns fell on deaf ears.
Please, no debating about why he was bullied, or which characteristic was most responsible. Just action.
So…
Do we have multiple narratives where school personnel are aware, but do not take any action?
I think so. Certainly the story here represents itself that way.
The story I alluded to (child with CP bullied on the bus) represented itself that way.
It seems these kids often know they should reach out for protection and support from adults….
The adults immediately in the situation seem content to throw them to the wolves.
I would be very curious as to what their anti-bullying policy and program looks like. Are all teachers, parents and kids given information and instruction about it? Does the school district have a telephone number kids and adults can call to report abuse like this? Is the number well known and prominentaly displayed? Are the consequences for bullying clearly laid out? Does the program specifically mention frequent targets? Does the program have broad parental and staff support? Is it regularly reviewed? Are “new hires” trained and continuing stad retrained? So many questions I would like to ask. Maybe we could all learn something.
I am wondering, we read about these children who felt they had no escape. Wha ti s the real story going on in their homes. We assume their parents are supportive. Do we really know the family circumstances of these children? Are they finding support in their homes?
I’m not talking about after the fact ev
David:
The subject:
My solution:
Any questions?
David,
OK – I’m weighing in because I think your accusations against Timothy, one of the loudest and most vocal supporters of anti-bullying programs on this entire blog – outside Warren – is out of bounds
My answer to your quote above is, so what? You dont have to be a minister or a Dominion leader to be a Christian that bullies – and you most certainly don’t have to be a conservative Christian to be effected by the intolerant message spread by some of its proponents
Eddy
I’m not criticizing religious conservatives (stop looking for insult when none is present). I’m criticizing the Christian Church. All of the body of Christ should instinctively respond by protecting and championing the oppressed.
Yes, exactly. Perhaps it could springboard off of the Golden Rule project.
I do think that due to the nature of the oppressed in this example that mainline churches will be more receptive to an effort to become protectors at first. But I hope that all Christians will eventually see their role as protector.
Or I may be wrong. Perhaps the Southern Baptists will lead the way.
When it comes to suicides related to bullying this reason stands out:
but I’m hunching that there’s often a bit of cross-over or mixing of reasons.
This statement from the previous post troubled me a bit:
That word ‘and’ suggests that they have all three and from the little I know of these recent victims, substance abuse hasn’t even been suggested. Depression and anxiety, though, would be normal responses to repeated bullying.
David R. – I did not state I found some weakness is causing kids to be bullied. Surely, the bullies perceive them to be weak. It is both the bully and the bullies who need our help, and yes, that may mean dealing with whatever is, as David B. pointed out earlier, at the root of both the bully and the victim mentality. Both kinds of kids are troubled in their own way.
Anti-bullying programs are supposed to give all the players the proper tools with which to change this environment, right? Do you have a problem with that? What are you objecting to? For Pete’s sake, I am not saying (have I not made that clear?) that those who are bystanders ought not come to the aid of an oppressed or bullied kid. But we are surely shortsighted if we don’t also realize he needs to be able to build his own defenses, to learn that his self-worth does not come from the opinions of others. It is inherent because he has been created by God. You do get that, don’t you?
There is a distinct difference between repeatedly rescuing — enabling — and providing genuine help that builds up and encourages a person. The latter is what we all should be wanting to see.
Why not just civilly disagree with me rather than trying to knock me off my Christian pedestal?
And Timothy, morality (knowing right from wrong) is not found in one part of the Bible. It’s not Levitical (eye for an eye) vs. Jesus’ Golden Rule. It springs from a heart that knows and loves the Triune God. Those who love God will honor Him and will love mankind, His greatest creation.
I just called the School District to express my sadness and to ask what they intended to do at the local level to combat bullying and save lives. I was told that the School District does have specific anti-bullying programs in place, but the representative could not give me thany additional information on how they intend to respond to this tragedy. The parents are claiming that did ask the school for help but that the school did not respond.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7220896.html
Jayhuck,
Accusations? I have no doubt about Timothy’s motivations; I am disappointed that he often calls into question the motives of others.
I am concerned, seriously concerned, that focusing on the religious angle distracts from the core risks that vulnerable children face; especially when the evidence seems to point in a different direction.
Focusing the psychological make up of bullies and ways to intervene forcibly to protect seems much more likely to succeed than getting entangled in the culture war…
But I don’t hear much about that.
Did any articles mention his religion? In the link you cited it said one of the reasons he was picked on was his religion, but doesn’t mention what it is.
Equally reprehensible is that the school appears to be circling the wagons with regards to the parents complaints
the parents claim otherwise. Even if the parents are exaggerating that they made complaints to the school (not saying they are, just it is possible in their grief they are mis-remembering things), a far more compassionate response on the schools part would be to simply say “we are still looking into the matter.”
I was bullied, cursed at, punched and beaten more days in elementary school than I care to remember. I didn’t get suicidal — just very depressed and puzzled as to why someone would want to hurt me and what words like “homo” and “sissy” meant.
The teachers DID look the other way — hardly keeping an eye on the playground. If they did notice me bloody or crying, their typicsl response was “Just stay away from them”, or “Now boys, don’t fight”. I wasn’t fighting. I was being attacked. Surely they could see that?
No one went after the bullies as far as I knew — except for a scolding to BOTH of us. One day, I went to the Vice Principle’s office to complain since the teachers were doing nothing. He shrugged his shoulders, gave me some advice of self-defense and suggested I learn. I was too ashamed to tell my parents how I really got the bruises and scrapes.
Perhaps, times have changed, perhaps not — but I was left with the feeling that the adults didn’t really take it seriously. Too busy with whatever else was more important to them. I echo Debbie here:
I am very afraid that more deaths and severe legal sanctions against school districts are t the only things that will prompt some school officials to take note — and get down to the real business of stopping bullying in their schools.
Timothy
You can change the subject if you wish, but you have apparently forgotten that this point was made some time ago and their was a consensus of agreement.
My issue with our threads and their focus on religion is that it is possible we are wasting a lot of time on a target that will not remedy the problem.
If you are really concerned with kids (to use one of your implied accusations you make of others at this site) wouldn’t you want to know the training and motivations of the bullys to head off such tormenting at the root?
If crimes against gender atypical children are being predominantly performed by non-religious persons, merely to enjoy the feeling of power and control over someone weak, vulnerable and marginalized, why draw in religious targets?
It seems like a misuse of energy and resources.
If safety is the issue for all (GLBT and Conservative Christians)…focus on facts, probable immediate causes. And yes…
Matthew Sheppard was not brutalized the the local baptist minister, under orders from leaders in the Dominion movement. He was brutalized by criminals who laid in wait.
David–
Just because they can’t hear you doesn’t mean you aren’t talking loud and clear.
Too bad the blog doesn’t come with super-bold print. It appears that Jayhuck missed this:
My issue with our threads and their focus on religion is that it is possible we are wasting a lot of time on a target that will not remedy the problem.
and instead chose to focus on a subpoint as your major theme and pompously pronounced your notion that ‘WE ARE WASTING A LOT OF TIME ON A TARGET THAT WILL NOT REMEDY THE PROBLEM’ as ‘out of bounds’.
You have planed a thought in my head, Eddy. Thinking. …
Tim,
You are absolutely right too! I apologize for my part in diverting attention from the real issue which is protecting these kids.
Thank you for the link to the Trevor Project btw
Eddy,
Yes – you are right – I’m having this same discussion on two threads and it is pointless to point fingers. There are obviously many conservative Christians, yourself and Warren included, who do care about protecting children without turning this into a religion/political issue.
Uh, that was “planted.” I’m sure some of my thoughts need to be planed, too, though. 🙂
The Give A Dman Campaign already has some of the celebs (Melissa, Elton, Cindi Lauper,etc.) you have mentioned. Perhaps they could organize it.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DStLOEI0HUU4&h=d10c7
Debbie,
I’m not so sure about this – is it human-nature or culture – if its the latter, then its most definitely influenced by religion. There are too many people who don’t torment gay people to make me believe that its necessarily just an issue of human nature. By that, I don’t mean to suggest that human nature doesn’t play a part, but you cannot rule out culture just yet either
Okay, I’ll buy into the criticisms of religious conservatives but I’m not sure what end it serves. Warren’s closing words from the topic post were “Just action.”…and a number of the posts went to that. It even appeared that some action was inspired. I communicated with a few people myself (one has Hollywood connections) trying to flesh out some ideas for action.
But then we detoured to what those religious conservatives ought to be doing or should have done. And there’s been no more talk or ideas for action. Is the insinuation that action can’t happen until they change their ways? Is it that they couldn’t be challenged themselves by strong and thoughtful anti-bullying programs? Is it a challenge to the religious conservatives who are a part of the conversation that ‘our job’ is to go out and change the hearts and minds of all the other religious conservatives before we can proceed?
There IS a time and a season for blame but there’s also a time and a season for moving on. The issue is timely…the issue is urgent.
It just occurred to me that perhaps an anti-bullying program ought to be developed that is geared to church sunday schools. Skip FOTF. Draw on some other conservative religious resource that is well respected. Perhaps Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship or Campus Crusade for Christ. I realize that they are geared primarily to college students but believe that they would embrace the idea of impacting local congregations. (It might even be an avenue of some direct action…I could envision those of us commonly labeled as ‘conservative’…me, Debbie, Warren, David and others…forming a committee to help shape such a program. And for my part, I’d insist that they do address the issue of moral judgement and how it impacts the bullying of gays…how it can be used by some to justify bullying and how it can be used by others to justify not stepping in to protect and defend the bullying victim. )
@Jayhuck
On this issue of nature and culture…. I think culture is a form of nature and a continuation of it. I don’t think someone could completely separate one from another.
Culture reflects many times what people are unable to achieve but strive for. So when people talk about equal rights, it’s because they are frustrated with unequality. And frankly, in nature there hardly is any. As someone who has participated in group bullying I can tell that it’s not about being broken or acting on beliefs. Whoever says that is projecting their own perception on others’ motives. Beliefs are being used. Bullies bully because they think it’s exciting to do it. Some are specialised in bullying, while others do it only occasionally.
The two students from Rutgers Uni who harassed the guy who jumped off the bridge last week weren’t exactly the Christian conservative types, were they? It’d be interesting to know if they ever attended some anti-bullying program or some other forms of tolerance building program. If they did, then it had no effect on them and it means that their motivation to harass comes from something deeper than what they have been taught.
I don’t rule out cultural influences. I think it’s both.
Absolutely.
Evan,
You wouldn’t have to be a conservative Christian though to have it influence you, right?
The only way to be able to answer this would be to know if, how and to what extent this happens in other cultures.
When you say culture is a form of nature you may be right to some extent – I’m definitely not saying you’re not, but its clear that cultures at different times and places do not react the same way to various issues/events, yet nature does not seem to react in the same way and seems to remain more constant – assuming when we use the words culture and nature we are talking about the same thing
David,
I’m troubled by the need to distinguish whether his exact persecutors were religious. The mindset behind that concern seems to be that as long as the kids directly involved with tormenting him were not active church goers then therefore Christians have no involvement.
Let me counter with another notion: Christian kids should have been his protectors. And as long as no one was protecting him or coming to his defense, then we have failed. That is our role, our assigned duty.
I think that this idea is at the very heart of Christ’s parable of the good Samaritan. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sadly, many who share our faith take a courtroom defense attitude when it comes to tragedy: “you can’t blame it on me, I didn’t do it. What, do you expect me to be my brother’s keeper?”
Zoe–
Something missing in what you’ve said is that most people, and most conservative Christians, won’t even see the LOT video. It’s difficult to expect a response to something they haven’t even seen. Those that do happen to see it will likely follow the most sound advice I’ve heard yet…ignore it. Don’t even give it the time of day. To do so would give it more ‘hits’ and elevate it’s status.
And no, I’m not going to provide that one scintilla of evidence that you request. Warren stated from the beginning that he didn’t want us to focus on ‘just one reason’ and your request goes to ‘just one reason’. Beyond that reason, I’m not in touch or in tune with conservative Christians organizations and have never suggested that I’m in any way associated or connected with any…other than Exodus. In common debate, the burden of proof lies with the person who has made the claim. I didn’t make any claims…Timothy did. If you want proof from him to support his claims about conservative Christians, fine. If you don’t, that’s okay with me also. Personally, I want to see the bullying of all people come to an end and I feel that this conversational detour would be a diversion from that end. Timothy and I seem to disagree on how to best go about addressing bullying. . Does a pissing contest resolve that? A recent thread seems to prove that it doesn’t. If you can show me that the end result of your inquiries differs from that other conversation, perhaps I’ll engage you. In the meantime, I joined in this conversation desperately trying to avoid the pitfalls of the other. For a brief moment, we were actually talking some common ground, strategies and goals. Forgive me for wanting to discuss what we have in common rather than our disagreements.
Jayhuck–
I’d like to believe that too but I’ve come to see Timothy as eloquent and a fairly complete master of his words. In short, I think if he meant ‘organizations’, he would have said so. I believe the swipe was intended against all conservative Christians as a debate strategy. If he so chooses, Timothy can defend or expound on what he was really trying to say. As for me, I’m going to try to stay on focus with trying to add something constructive to this conversation. Both Debbie and Timothy have suggested that my idea has little merit’ Michael appears to believe that it may be a path worth pursuing. It’s not a big deal. These are conversations. If I toss something in and am shown that it is has little or no merit, if the reasoning behind the objection seems sound, my notions can and should fall by the wayside. For the record, Debbie’s objections didn’t persuade me to abandon pushing for media involvement. However, Timothy’s did. I’m currently re-evaluating my own belief in my suggestion.
@Eddie – if one, just one, conservative christian group criticises, no matter how mildly, that LOT video, then you have a point. Just one, anywhere.
I’m not holding my breath.
Show me a single scintilla of evidence to contradict that, anywhere on the FotF or other conservative christian site, just one, and I’d be overjoyed.
I think I understand the warning about not debating which characteristic was most responsible for his bullying. That is fine here, however I think it important to address those specific issues in dealing with bullying on the front lines. A generic “no bullying for any reason” message does not seem to be effective. Kids need to be validated by the assurance that they — whatever characteristic was used as a target — are not deserving of such treatment, not just that bullying for anything is simply wrong. Those who have fits over the idea of mentioning sexual orientation in anything but a condemning manner will just need to get past that as lives are at stake.
As for the issues with attire, that could be eliminated with school uniforms, and probably a lot more strife with it. There are disadvantages to the fractured, local control of schools, as well as advantages. This problem requires action in unison.
David,
That’s why I would assume that the response of the ELCA (even those congregations that have a more conservative sexual ethic) would be to put the support for the kid on a higher level of Christian concern than worries about a homosexual agenda.
For me, this is really an issue which is ideal for Christians: protect the oppressed.
Regarding the ELCA…since I am a member. :).
Their recent marriage statement puts the emotional support for gays and lesbians (through marriage) on a higher level of Christian concern (since they are a targeted and marginalized minority) than compliance with Levitical law or Pauline prohibitions.
Eddy,
I think – and hope – that Tim was just speaking about conservative Christian organizations and not necessarily individuals. I can’t know for certain, but its been clear on here that you and Warren, two conservative Christians, agree on most of the basics with many of the rest of us regarding bullying, especially of LGBT kids, and that makes me hopeful. I know that conservative Christian orgs don’t speak for all conservative Christians.
Michael,
Forget conservative Christianity. They are not going to get on board with anything that does not include explicit condemnation of homosexuality. That has proven over and over to be a far higher priority.
But why not go for mainline Christianity. Approach the Lutherans (ELCA), the Methodists, the Episcopalians, the Quakers, the UCC, the Presbyterians, and those more along that line. Even those who have a more conservative approach to sexual responsibility are generally not so obsessed with fighting imaginary agendas that they can’t support children.
Perhaps there is a way to appeal to mainline Christians to be protectors of the oppressed. This is in line with the way that they view their mission to be the hands of Christ.
From the same school district last year:
“True Colors” has become somewhat of an anthem in this cause:
http://truecolorsfund.org/
My parents and inlaws were all teachers, so I know how difficult that can be. I am not talking about being refereeing every argument. I am talking about obvious attacks and observed violence where someone gets injured. I am talking about kids with a history of bullying and aggression who never get called on the carpet for it.
I am talking about those who see it and do nothing. Of administrators who get calls from parents and do little. I am talking about teachers and administrators who choose to be blind to it. Or people who are too scared to be seen as pro or anti “agenda” to even name frequent targets and protect the most vulnerable.
The everyday teacher trying to keep kids in line gets a little bit more tolerance from me since they cannot be everywhere at once and notice every threat or assault. But where the violence is obvious or habitual, why would they not step in and deal with it strongly? If they knew and did little or nothing, they deserve criminal charges for child endangerment.
If it’s true that the school is stonewalling on the fact that his parents complained, that is reprehensible. It’s hard to think that kids like this have to become martyrs in order for schools to take effective action against bullying. My heart aches for his parents and for all who grieve these deaths. So very sad.
Concrete steps – lay a paper trail with an independent authority to record what has been said. I suspect that most such cases will be tempests in teapots.
But make sure that when there is concrete, verifiable proof of inaction by authorities, proof that cannot be mislaid or covered up… that you make a Horrible Example of those whose negligence led to tragedy. ‘Pour encourager les autres’
The danger is that you will terrorise teachers so they act inappropriately – the “zero tolerance” stupidity we’ve seen where kids have been handcuffed by the police for drawing pictures of guns under a school’s “no weapons” policy.
There’s not a lot that can be done about such brain-dead incompetence. And we can’t teach teachers to care. Hopefully, as part of teacher training, they’ve received adequate instruction in anti-bullying measures, but refresher courses are probably necessary, if only so they know what party-line to parrot, even if they don’t implement it.
But if you back that up with threats of jail-time and bankrupcy, personal liability, and make sure that only those obviously guilty will be punished – that’s crucial – then even those who don’t care and want to take the easy road will see that it’s in their best interests to actually do their jobs.
Keeping this statement in mind:
I have some difficulty with this response:
Why must they be at the forefront of the fight against LGBT teen suicide and not just teen suicide? Why Exodus? As indicated previously on this blogsite, they’ve published a statement re bullying but aren’t noted for an actual focus there.
The movie idea has been tried a few times.
As Michael mentioned, in 1994 Trevor came out and addressed the topic. It inspired The Trevor Project, a 24/7 suicide hotline.
Last year Prayers for Bobby addressed the issue from a slightly different approach. Bobby Griffin’s suicide was mostly attributed (by his mother) to her own intolerance and rejection.
There have also been a number of made-for-TV “very special” programs that address bullying and/or suicide.
The problem with relying on a message movie is that it has to be entertaining or no one will watch it. And few message movies are very good.
@Michael Bussee
[Hug]
Your experience mirrors my own. The problem with telling kids to work it out amongst themselves is that they often stop reporting anything, even more serious stuff, to parents and school authorities. The impression is left that either the authorities don’t understand, they don’t care, or worse, that this is “normal”.
@Debbie
One piece of advice on playground duty in elementary school. Something I’ve observed sometimes, a sure sign that something is very, very wrong.
Look at the teacher or supervisor strolling the playground. You might see them holding hands with the kids, and they in turn holding hands with others so two lines form, one on either side. And the smaller kids playing happily, laughing and singing., keeping in front of the supervisor. Sweet, right?
Always keeping within sight. If she turns, see them scramble, shrieking, to maintain that position, always in front, always in sight, never behind.
Because there are predators out there, and you can even sometimes see them pounce on a kid who doesn’t keep in sight, dragging them away to a private spot. If the line of hand-holders is too long, some might even be daring enough to grab one from the end. If caught – “well, they were just playing a game”.
ken,
1. instill a multi-tier anti-bullying program.
2. convince the teachers of its importance.
3. get the teacher’s union to agree that ignoring bullying is a fireable offense
4. when bullying is observed, call in the parents of the bully for a discussion about what THEY are going to do to stop it
5. call them back for a follow up meeting in two weeks – if they don’t participate, kick their kid out
I’m sure there is a lot more that could be done. But it requires the administrators to care and from what i read over and over and over and over, it’s at the schools where they just don’t care that kids die.
Bullied kid referred to me not long ago had been prosecuted for assault and placed on probation to insure he got treatment…he was suspended from school.
…this blunt event was quite effective at protecting the victim…treatment allowed him to gain empathy for his victim.
sigh….
Well, at least we did get in 46 posts before taking a broad swipe at conservative Christians…
Yes, I know that these celebs also support other LGBT causes including things like Marriage Equality and the end of DADT, but often, it seems that those are the sorts of people who are most vocal and most active in the fight against bullying and helping LGBT kids in crisis.
They cannot be the only ones. Who are some notable conservative Christian leaders, artists or organizations at the forefront of the fight against bullying and LGBT teen suicide? I wonder if Exodus might rethink its response to the problem?
As for a movie, “TREVOR” addressed this issue and won an Oscar. The TREVOR Hotline started in response to the great need.
While what happened with Asher was a tragedy, before this discussion turns into a pecking party on the teachers, perhaps people could instead come up with some constructive suggestions on how to handle bullying. What should be done to prevent bullying? what should teachers/administrators/parents do if a child reports a problem with another child in school?
Clarify please.
I think that at this time we should go with protecting the oppressed. That is a very clear call of Christ.
Maybe sometime later when there are fewer kids killing themselves we can worry about opening the eyes of the oppressed. Perhaps after we break the epidemic of torture we can tell them to stand on their own two feet.
Fair enough?
Evan:
While there are ways that this doesn’t rise to the level of bullying, it doesn’t fall totally outside the realm of homophobia. They may have liked him as a person but their reponse to his homosexuality overshadowed that liking. Somehow, they lost sight of the person and saw ‘it’. As you said, they likely wouldn’t have posted it if it were hetero.
Personally, I’m reasonably sure that both of them feel devastated BUT I still want them to receive some legal consequence for their actions. A clear and strong message needs to be sent and I doubt that a more clear example will present itself. They violated the roommate first by videotaping; they violated again by posting. It needs to be addressed with legal consequences. (And, although that may sound harsh, it may actually be the only way that either of them will be able to move on with their lives. Their insensitivity and stupidity cost a life…and they know that…it’s quite likely that if the law doesn’t punish them, they’ll punish themselves.)
We should post this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100930/ap_on_re_us/us_student_taped_sex
Timothy,
If you can respond less to fragments and more to the whole post, we might understand each other better.
Debbie,
You and I have VERY different understandings of Scripture and what Jesus came to say. When we say “love” we don’t mean the same thing. When we say “heart” we don’t mean the same thing. When we say “honor” we don’t mean the same thing.
What on earth are you talking about, Debbie? This sounds like a government anti-poverty program. What “weakness” in these kids do you believe is responsible for their being bullied to death? And what exactly do their eyes need to be opened about in order to live their lives, go to school and study like anyone else? A person who is accustomed to always being rescued will not learn how to stand on his own two feet??? Are you serious? What does that have to do with one kid sticking up for another who is being bullied?
If you want to open someone’s eyes, maybe start with the one who is doing the bullying, rather than placing the blame on the one receiving it. I have to agree with Timothy here, your idea of what it is to live as a believer is hard to contemplate.
Yes, Eddy, they posted the video because they knew others would have appreciated “the joke”. If no one would be interested in this type of videos, they would not be so interested either to show their roommate with another guy. It seems there is something in the social environment that makes this kind of trolling appealing to them and others. In part, I think this comes from the status of homosexuality as a minority.
Sorry David,
I have no abilities as psychoanalyzing bullies. I’ll leave that to you.
I’m going to stick with my contention that Christians should be (and can be) protectors of the oppressed. That takes no special skills and I believe we can do it.
Timothy,
With all due respect, the detour started here in your comment to Michael:
So it renders this statement to me as a tad confusing.
You ARE criticizing religious conservatives–more specifically ‘conservative Christianity’ (stop claiming no insult when one is clearly there for all to see)
David,
I can get behind you on this David, the problem is that groups like FOTF cannot! They seem to view talking to kids about respecting gay people as part of the culture war.
I agree with you though!
Forgot to mention Daniel Radcliffe (Harry Potter) and his support of the Trevor Project.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzFMBYVMSVg
David,
I read about this yesterday. It is such a tragedy for all involved. I get the feeling that the people who made the tape were not necessarily homophobic or anti-gay, just that they made a serious error in judgment. Its definitely an invasion of privacy, but would this necessarily be filed under cyberbullying? I don’t know, I’m just asking.
Evan,
Eddy,
I found this to be very insightful. As much as I feel these two people didn’t intentionally set out to hurt the guy, you may very well be right!
Eddy,
I apologize if I offended you. If my words were hurtful, I take them back.
Let’s focus on what we agree on: that it would be of value to the world if Christendom took on the role of protector of the oppressed.
The more I think of it, I really think Eddy is onto something with the song/national campaign idea. Since it would not be an official program in the schools, you could mention sexual orientation without a problem. And more awareness and support of organizations like these:
The Trevor Project — The Trevor Project is a nonprofit endeavor established to promote acceptance of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning (LGBTQ) youth, and to aid in suicide prevention among that group. 24 hour crisis counseling at 1-866-4U-TREVOR
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/about-trevor/organization
The Matthew Shepherd Foundation: “To educate and enlighten others on the importance of diversity, understanding, compassion, acceptance and respect. Everyone must participate in developing solutions to problems that are rooted in ignorance and hatred.”
http://www.matthewshepard.org/our-story
The “Give a Damn” Campaign. Many celebrities are already part of this effort.
http://www.wegiveadamn.org/issues/youth-suicide/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-E7fykpeGc
I support all three of these organizations. Do you know of other organizations we might add?
Jayhuck,
Apparently, the students from Rutgers were not homphobic. They seemed to appreciate their roommate. Even so, they did what they did. One of them wrote on facebook:
“Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly’s room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay.”
That sounds like real-life trolling. It doesnt’ seem like [cyber]bullying. You are right, they have made an error of judgement. But those who say that if he were with a woman he wouldn’t have been treated this way, I think they have a point too. Having a minority status and being trolled and thus outed seemed to have pushed Tyler Clementi to a desperate place.
I could have reversed the statement to name other rights first, Timothy. Perhaps that would have angered you less. What I was saying is that a rights-vs.-rights war is getting us nowhere. Invariably, when one side hollers and demands “rights,” the other (or another) begins to feel disenfranchised or put upon. “Hey, you’re cutting into my turf” … “speaking over me” … whatever. It just seemed to me that this point was not brought out in our very long discussion. But no matter. I am shutting up now. I’ve had enough of it all.
Collin Farrell Talks Bullying Against Gay Teens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pOoeo8o7QA&feature=player_embedded
Debbie–
I realize that it’s often difficult to leave a direct question unanswered but consider 1) that you did say that you were exiting the conversation and 2) that dialogues between you and Timothy have NEVER gone anywhere. I can’t recall when he’s ever shown an ounce of respect for you or your opinions. I, for one, don’t think it would be ungracious of you to leave his burning questions unanswered.
There is a place to have a meaningful and productive voice but this isn’t it.
Peace!
I think I have nothing more to contribute here.
Debbie,
Linda Harvey has a new column out today in which she incorporates some themes that are familiar.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=211837
Do you agree or disagree with Linda? And on what points?
Eddy,
I should have used the word “or.”
See you next time Timothy.
I reject your rights-vs-rights paradigm.
I know of no rights that are threatened by treating people equally and with dignity and respect. Only those who are accustomed to being given preference and who have presumptions of superiority are threatened by equality.
I’ll not comment on the presumption of entitlement that is oozing out of this jolly little statement.
Some of you may remember a study headed by Dr. Elizabeth Saewyc up in BC, Canada a few years ago. It was based on long-range student surveys to assess adolescent suicide risk. It included kids in BC, the Pacific Northwest and Midwest. The study found that, since 1992, those kids identifying as bisexual, especially girls, had marked increases in suicidal thoughts. Also, Warren wrote an article a while back about depression and teen sexual experimentation, referring to depression as “the new sexually transmitted disease.”
Here’s the reference to the Saewyc study, FYI:
Elizabeth Saewyc, Ph.D., RN, PHN, Carol L. Skay, Ph.D., Patricia Hynds, Sandra Pettingell, Ph.D., Linda H. Bearinger, Ph.D., MS, RN, Michael D. Resnick, Ph.D., and Elizabeth Reis, MS, “Suicide Ideation and Attempts in North American School-Based Surveys: Are Bisexual Youth At Increasing Risk?” Journal of Adolescent Health, 2008 February; 3(2): 25–36
Of course, not all depressed gay-identified kids are experimenting with sex, but I do find it interesting that GLSEN would serve to possibly promote sexual experimentation through some of its literature. “Tackling Gay Issues in School,” a GLSEN teacher’s manual, has a lesson called “Bisexual Basics” in it. It includes this tidbit: “Each of us should have the freedom to explore our sexual orientation and find our own unique expression of lesbian, bisexual, gay, straight, or any combination of these.” Sorry, but that crosses the line of what is acceptable to my thinking.
Debbie Thurman# ~ Oct 6, 2010 at 2:51 pm
“It’s a bigger picture than you are painting, Ken. Look at more of it. Look at all of humanity and not just the gay side for a moment.”
Look at WHAT Debbie? How does looking at ALL OF HUMANITY help? What suggestions do you have from looking at all of humanity? I look how kids mirror the attitudes of adults and how adults treat gays (and other minorities) and suggest treating gays equally under the law would help. Now, I acknowledge it won’t help the kids being bullied because of their weight or religion. However, simply because something doesn’t solve the problem for everyone doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done for those it can help.
“Make it about a safety net for hurting or confused kids, whatever that pain.”
Because you have to understand what is CAUSING the pain to help alleviate it. Broad generalizations aren’t going to help. You have to get into the details.
“The problem can be addressed without making gay rights the centerpiece of it.”
I never said it should be the centerpiece. I was responding to your assertions that it would somehow cause “bedlam.” I believe it will help, not hurt.
Arrggghhh!
At a point in the conversation where we were trying to move beyond blame and focus more on action, I don’t think we needed the blast against GLSEN.
As do I. We can really only unravel what we see unfolding or what a person tells us through their words or actions. We may feel the need to try to explain, after the fact, someone’s suicide as part of a mental illness, but how on earth can we use that information to prevent it in any other person? No possible.
Also, we already have had an ominous push (under George W. Bush, no less) for universal mental health screening, all the way down to infants. Schools would be the primary screening ground under some of the plans that have been proposed in the past (Google TMAP sometime). Kids are over-medicated as it is, as is much of the adult population. Just what we need — screening for suicide, given that some antidepressants drive kids toward it rather than prevent it.
It’s a no-brainer that adolescence is tough. It’s a no-brainer that’s it’s tougher for gay kids. And we all know that bullying can send some over the edge into suicidal or homicidal rage. We know plenty.
Debbie Thurman# ~ Oct 6, 2010 at 11:04 am
“When you set up gay rights over against “other” rights or perceived rights, you get bedlam”
Like the “bedlam” that ensued when minorities were given equal rights? You prefer a system where certain classes are denied the same rights as others?
Do you think that adults treating gays as 2nd class citizens has nothing to do with teens and children targeting them as well?
I just want to comment a bit on this statement of Evan’s and his follow-up question to Jayhuck, even though I get a sense that most folks are ready to move on from this discussion. I am sure it will piggyback to others because it’s a very important one.
Bullying is something that proves the selection and isolating process begins not in adulthood, but far earlier. Yes, people are sometimes born with certain handicaps or strikes against them from a worldly point of view. Kids do learn to prefer some over others because of cultural prejudices. In adulthood, the more mature and compassionate people can reverse this picture, if they choose, because they have the means to do it. Or they can cement it.
Children are too immature to catch all the subtleties, and yet some of them are more discerning and compassionate than their elders in this regard. Some of the great works of literature have child protagonists and heroic characters to teach the greatest moral lessons. And those are the kinds of tools that teachers and parents can use to teach the right stuff to kids. You can far more easily slip the message in this way than by forcing them to go to Sunday School. If they do both, so much the better. And of course, adults have the duty to model appropriate and moral behavior for children.
We have advocacy organizations and recovery ministries for the very reason that so many adults are warped and hurt by early experiences to the extent that they have fallen back on various addictive and unhealthy behaviors to ameliorate their pain. Yes, they can change those old patterns.
Tremendously. I did not know a person could go for weeks barely sleeping at all and still live. Ate little, as well. That was me. A walking zombie and crazy as a loon.
Jayhuck, what would you teach adult people to no longer reject gays?
What would you teach children to no longer reject atypical kids?
I ask you this because you said that it’s a matter of teaching and learning.
We use the knowledge of investigating to try and prevent the same conditions from existing in someone else. We can’t stop every suicide. But we can effect the rate of occurrence.
Actually, often in the case of a suicide, not only is a physical autopsy performed – but alo psychological autopsy. And I’ll bet that never becomes public information.
I am more concerned about the social and religious conditions that come from outside the kid. Let’s start the “autopsy” there.
Online, I have been closely watching the response to the terrible tragedy of LGBT suicides.
A national reponse has been mobilized through such programs as the Trevor Project, the “Give A Damn” campaign”, the “It Gets Better” project” on Youtube — and many celebrities coming forward to add their voices. Very encouraging.
I still think it would be much more powerful if it were cross-denominational, “liberal” and “conservative.” I sincerely hope that is what it will become.
Not sure how that relates to Eddy’s autopsy question, but it does bring to the fore the fact that it can be very difficult to catch someone who is suicidal and prevent it. Some give signals, others don’t. We don’t know the extent of the silent suffering. Some people actually appear calmer and happier just before a planned suicide since they feel they have resolved the situation.
There are so many things that contribute to depression. For me, it was only my faith, ingrained in me since childhood, that kept me from doing myself in at my lowest point. One pinpoint light of hope was enough for me. Guilt, anger turned inward, shame at having my sins publicly aired. It all factored in. I had support. Can’t do it without that.
While we are talking about October being bullying prevention month, it may also may pertinent to mention that it is depression awareness month. National Depression Screening Day this year is Oct. 7.
Eddy,
In after thought…..? I just will not be convinced that we have the complete picture of this man’s state of mind. I am not “robbing” him of any one thing. I’d like to think that I took the time to consider him more of a person than just some gay guy who was embarrassed and had his rights violated.
Zoe–
With all due respect, your personal limitations on accepting facts aren’t my responsiblilty. And I don’t believe I’m quite ready to cave in and change the meaning of the colloquialism ‘kinda’ to suit you.
My comment went to those employed in the schools just as the one it was responding to went to those employed in the military.
I don’t think the Tyler Clementi suicide is a case of bullying. It appears to be more a case of stupidity (and possibly some homophobia) on the part of his roommate and neighbor, but not bullying. While tragic, and an example of how anti-gay attitudes can do damage, I don’t think it is the same as the Seth Walsh, Asher Brown or Tyler Wilson cases.
Neil Patrick Harris Encourages Gay Youth To ‘Be Proud’
‘When you get older, you find that people are actually drawn to individuals with different points of view,’ openly gay actor says in video.<
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1649200/20101001/story.jhtml
MY MY MY…we had to go back 3 days and over 40 posts to find a way justify a link re church ‘feed the homeless’ programs on this thread about bullying.
I’m thinking that perhaps the site motto should be “Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here”.
In keeping with that message and in response to the attitude that continually finds ways to throw it in our faces, I think it’s time I give up trying to change the church. Every time I feel a glimmer of hope or think that it’s a cause worth pursuing, I’m reminded yet again of how truly pointless such efforts would be. Thanks, TK, for being that voice in the wilderness. Keep up the good work.
@ David Roberts,
I think you twisted Debbie’s comment into something it is not. Just like a woman who is raped, we provide classes for growing her confidence, self protection etc… so that she does not live with a victim mentality for the rest of her life. It is the same for children who are bullied. When I was gay we had support groups to help with our self esteem and to find support systems for being gay. It helped us stay away from the vivtim mentality by providing ourselves with useful tools to stand proud.
Schools Chief: Bullying Must Stop
http://advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/01/Schools_Chief_Bullying_Must_Stop/
Eddy,
Bullying fits here very nicely.
What I am trying to say is the issue of teen suicide has many categories. Lets attack all the the problems in a scientifically sound way…to include forceful protection of gender atypical children for the reasons I cited above.
Michael,
I really commend you. And I think Eddy’s idea of having churches teach in Sunday School about being the protector of the oppressed is a great idea.
Another idea might be having supportive pastors available as a resource to bullied kids. Having men and women of God show love can do two things: give hope and support to someone feeling alone and perhaps save their life, and also open a door for them to get to know God.
(I guess I wasn’t done)
OK, OK. I’ll withdraw the GLSEN comment. It seemed germane in a discussion that was linking sexuality and depression. Kind of like an elephant in the living room. I, too, want to move forward and seek common ground, however. I’ll take my lumps like a grown-up.
While I get your point, my statement itself was true…schools do indeed ‘kinda have a policy’.
Mary# ~ Oct 1, 2010 at 12:12 pm
“Wha ti s the real story going on in their homes. We assume their parents are supportive. Do we really know the family circumstances of these children? Are they finding support in their homes?”
In this case, it appears the parents were supportive and trying to protect their child (according to the parents they complained about the bullying to the school). Which is what makes even more tragic. A child goes to his parents for help and they were unable to protect him.
Although, in the case of glbt kids then there is the question of whether they can go to their parents for help.
OOPs
I’m not talking about after the feact evidence where the parents parade in front of cameras talking about their child being bullied. But what is happening in the home prior to that?
Michael–
If you were part of an anti-bullying program in a public school, would you share how you reconciled your homosexuality with your Christian faith?
It would be wonderful if we can get some conservative Christian churches in town to join the effort. It may be easier to organize those churches that have already expressed an interest and then pray that the others may come on board. I think it would be much more powerful if it were cross-denominational, “liberal” and “conservative.” I sincerely hope that is what it will become.
That is what I am doing. I am working locally with the UCC and through them, with churches and community service organizaztions in the Riverside area who are already doing work in this area.
I think it is probably futile to try to motivate churches that are strongly opposed to mentionting LGBT kids as frequent targets, since they may fear that they would appear to be “pro-gay”>
Reposting this from a related thread about adolescent suicide and the correlation with mental illness…gender-atypical children may be multiple minorities and doubley fragile: civilized behavior requires that we understand them and protect them aggressively:
U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan Releases Statement on Recent LGBT Youth Tragedies
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=28877
This is worth repeating.
There’s been two responses:
Dan Savage’s “It gets better” project, to give bullied gay kids hope. To stop the suicides.
And in response to that, this video – It only gets worse – from a “Christian” outreach project, to remove that hope.
But it’s nothing personal:
That’s what they see these tragedies as. A “unique opportunity” for them.
They’re out to save kids from Eternal Damnation you see.
They claim the suicides aren’t from the beatings. They’re from the sense of guilt that gay kids feel. That many of the kids who suicide aren’t actually gay, just perceived that way, that’s an inconvenient fact they have to ignore.
Note that the “LOT project” of Arizona is quite different from the “L.O.T. project” of South Carolina. The latter stands for “Least Of These” and does Christian charitable work, feeding the poor.
Mary# ~ Oct 2, 2010 at 10:19 pm
“WHO CARES ABOUT ALAN CHAMBERS!!!!! He’s not the only voice of us!”
Far to many people care about what Chambers says, and that is part of the problem. While he may not speak for you, Mary (or anyone who posts here), he does speak for Exodus.
Mary# ~ Oct 3, 2010 at 12:08 pm
“William, You post is polarizing.”
Perhaps it was, but it was not inaccurate. Perhaps you should direct your anger at those organizations, rather than William. They are the ones giving conservative christians (and christians in general) a bad name. William is merely pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.
Eddy – tell me when schools initiate an investigation and expell a student as the result of an anonymous tip that they might possibly be practicing christians. Then. and only then, will I consider that they have a “kinda” DADT policy.
Sorry, Jayhuck, but this statement isn’t true.
It wasn’t several wonderful paragraphs on preventing bullying. 1) It was ONE paragraph 2) it wasn’t all that wonderful because 3) it claimed to be against bullying but it was, as I explained with the whole ‘therefore’ thing, it was all hinged on ‘anti-gay’ bullying. Your statement would have been closer to true if you said that it was ‘a wonderful paragraph on preventing anti-gay bullying’.
Re ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’. Isn’t it ironic that public schools kinda have a policy on that against Christians or any religions?
“When Does Opposition to Suicide Prevention Equal Murder?”
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/
I’m going to regard this thread as one that has been officially hijacked with little hope of getting back on track. We just escaped from a thread that met a slow and painful death after going down this road…I believe that’s the reason Warren tried to steer us away from focussing on a particular cause for the bullying but, as is our way, everything must pass through the gay filter.
Asher was ” picked on for his small size, his religion and because he did not wear designer clothes and shoes. Kids also accused him of being gay”. He was bullied for a number of reasons, but here, we’ll only remember one.
Debbie,
Only if they are incredibly careful about what they talk about and to whom and that their actions don’t give away who they truly are.
Mary, I really don’t think that there can be any middle ground here, at least not in any meaningful sense. Either one wants to put a stop to anti-gay bullying or one doesn’t. Anyone who says “No, of course we don’t condone anti-gay bullying, and yes, of course we must nip it in the bud”, but who, no matter what his or her motives, approves only of policies that throw a bucket of fudge over the issue of this particular kind of bullying is simply trying to face both ways and lacks credibility.
Eddy,
Fair enough, but this statement isn’t true either
Kids can talk about their religion in schools, kids can meet to pray – its not anywhere near the same thing simply because school administrators and teachers can’t be seen to be endorsing or supporting one religion over another.
Neil Patrick Harris…perfect!
Best fight scene ever…watch and enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XymelxbVpA
Eddy,
The “gay filter”? It is not gay people who are making this about the gay kids – The Safe Schools Improvement Act supported by GLSEN and most other mainstream groups doesn’t single out gay people for special treatment – it names a number of groups – per usual, it is the conservative Christians who want to block speech about gay people that are making it a gay-issue – Its just that gay people now have to respond to this attitude of opposition.
Eddy,
It raised an eyebrow Eddy because after several wonderful paragraphs on preventing bullying, they end with a political statement – which, in my eyes, tarnishes the ENTIRE message.
Way over the top. Who is opposed to suicide prevention? Some are opposed to some elements of politicized programs. No one supports bullying. BTW, gays can and do serve honorably in the military.
Interesting observations. This did start out as a thread about ‘bullying in general’. Warren even appealed in his closing ‘Please no debating about why he was bullied’. And I come home last night to discussion of the official Exodus Policy Statement on Bullying. And the expressed concerns with the statement are the closing paragraph. It raised the eyebrows of both Jayhuck and Michael. Odd–so very odd.
The oddity is that we’ve been here claiming that we stand firmly against the bullying of all kids–for whatever the reason–and the majority of the criticisms directed against conservatives has been their objection to speaking specifically to anti-gay bullying. Now let’s look at that Policy Statement Against Bullying leaving off the paragraph that raised the eyebrows:
I learned in school, “when you see the word ‘therefore’, see what it’s there for.” Although this statement cites ‘any individual’, ‘any reason’ and ‘every human being’, the ‘therefore’ betrays a strong bias. While it’s entitled as a Statement on Bullying; it’s actually a Statement on Anti-Gay Bullying despite the feeble attempt to inject the inclusive ‘any’ and ‘every’. It’s all in the ‘therefore’. The ‘therefore’, naturally, goes to the preceding statement which is:
So, is that the reason ‘we strongly oppose bullying’ for ‘any’ and ‘every’? Because Jesus ‘died and loves equally’ ‘gay-identified individuals and those who struggle with same-sex attraction’? In a statement purportedly directed against bullying in general, why has ‘gay’ become the ‘therefore’? And why didn’t that raise eyebrows? Why, when it was introduced into this conversation with ‘no debating about why’, were no eyebrows raised that it elevated this reason for bullying above all others? Why did no one notice the disconnect between it’s broad title and it’s focussed theme? Is this a hint that while we claim that our cause is to make sure that gays aren’t left out of our anti-bullying programs…that, for some, they are instead the prime focus?
I think that the following would be a fair summary of the position of Exodus and of those other so-called family advocates who oppose any bullying prevention measures that specifically mention anti-gay bullying:
“We don’t, of course, actually want students to be bullied because they’re gay or are believed to be gay – at any rate we wouldn’t positively encourage it – and we agree that schools have a duty to put a stop to bullying of this kind. (You have to say the right thing when all other possibilities have been exhausted.) But we will approve only of a general statement that bullying for any reason is wrong, using the specious argument (which we know full well to be disingenuous) that any specific mention of anti-gay bullying would be giving gays “special treatment”. If we were to acknowledge to pupils that we know that some children are being bullied because they are (or are believed to be) gay, we would then have to make it absolutely clear to them that the rule that bullying for any reason will not be tolerated includes bullying anyone because they’re gay. That’s precisely what we don’t want to do. So if we can’t stop such bullying without acknowledging that we know the reason for it, then the bullying will just have to continue. A pity, but there it is.”
Excuse, me, but did anybody actually ready Randy Thomas’ blog post? You seem to be fixating on the bullying policy statement. How about this?
@ William,
Seems you made a similar post on another blog. And you rec’d kudos from a person who has pretty much been warned to tone down the accusations and rhetoric – on other blogs. Is there a place where maybe the two extremes can be wrong and somewhere in the middle is a good answer?
William,
You post is polarizing. Have you read the post from the conservative christians who have contributed to this blog? Your sarcasm, opinionism, and bias are just as much a distraction to solving the issue as the person who truns a blind eye.
Eddy and Michael raise a question worth considering. Isn’t it right for these kids to know that people resolve their gay feeling in different ways? After, all they are going to be dealing with this the rest of their lives in some fashion or another. If I were to address a group of students or parents or anyone about bullying, I could honestly say I have never been bullied as a student. But I couldn’t say I hadn’t faced feelings of shame or guilt or confusion. I couldn’t say I haven’t faced harassment as an adult. I would have to talk about how I’ve handled that in my life.
Debbie,
Yes, but FOTF sure doesn’t want them to
Why Anti-Gay Bullying is a Theological Issue
And the moral imperative of anti-bullying preaching, teaching and activism A theology of anti-gay bullying — By Cory J. Sanders
Cody J. Sanders is a Baptist minister and Ph.D. student in Pastoral Theology and Counseling at Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, TX.
http://www.religiondispatches.org/contributors/codysanders/
I really think we can and should keep religious positions (pro or con) on homosexuality OUT of anti-bullying programs — except to say it is wrong to bully a person for any reason, including their percieved orientation or rtheir eligious beliefs.
But I think its fair to say that “people respond to (gay and straight) feelings in different ways.” But that should not be the focus of the programs. The focus should be on how to stop bullies and help kids who are targets of it, not to provide religious instruction on any particular “resolution” to the issue.
I think you tell kids the facts — that people are different, that people walk many different paths in life — and that all people, including gays or those perceived to be gay, are worthy of basic respect and kindness. Bullying will not be tolerated. Period. Perpetrators and those who aid them will be dealt with fairly and firmly.
Whether or not I shared my own faith journey would depend on many things — who was asking me to share, the age(s) of the students, the context of the discussion, the permission of parents, etc. Even if asked, I really don’t think I would go into great detail about it –except to say that I was at peace with my decision.
I just read a wonderful commentary by Paul Greenberg (one of my Jewish pals) called “Ideology vs. Principle.” It reminded me that if we all decided to put our ideology on a shelf and dust off our principles, we might get through this mess and learn to appreciate and love each other in the process.
There is a lot of confusion about what we can and can’t talk about in the schools. I think we do kids a disservice by acting as if our faith is something we are ashamed of or afraid to talk about. I believe we could talk about morality, could we not? We could talk about the way we were brought up and the impact that had on us, for better or worse. If bullying is wrong, then it is morally wrong. Kids have a conscience.
Michael,
AAAAAAAAmen! 🙂
Totally inappropriate in my opinion, David.
And Eddy, no, I probably would not. I would be there to talk about how to respond to bullying, not to share my personal faith journey.
Here you go:
http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/10/01/step-up-speak-out-against-bullying-the-tragic-case-of-tyler-clementi/
With a policy statement.
An important message from Ellen Degeneres on LGBT teen suicide — and HOPE.
Please watch it and share it with others..
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=592846987806&ref=mf
Regarding that Policy Statement, please note: Alan Chambers opposes all anti-bullying programs and all Hate Crime Laws since he believes theye are “tools to crush Christian Evangelism”. Exodus opposes the “Day Of Silence” to raise awareness of the problem of LGBT teen bullying and suicide because LGBT groups sponsor the event and Exodus is scared to death of being seen as “pro-gay”.
Furthermore, Alan Chambers strongly resisted posting ANY official anti-bullying statement for MONTHS before adopting the one posted here. He finally got so tired of me bugging him to do it that he ran it by me first before he posted it. Dont get me wrong, I don’t believe Exodus is in favor of bullying or suicide — but why should they have to be pressured by anyone to take an official stand against it?
I hope so, but I worry that many are not. Many of these kids are probably afraid of rejection or hurting their parents by disclosing their sexual orientation. I know I was! As a kid, I would have rather died that break their hearts. I knew my parents loved me, but it would have killed my Dad to know he had a “homo” son. He seemed very relieved when I got married. He died before I had a chance to “come out” to him.
When I told my Mom, she said it was “worse than my Dad dying of leukemia “and that she “wanted to drive her car off a cliff”. She felt suddenly shoved into her own “closet” because she believed she had done something terribly wrong. She believed the story that gay kids must have bad parents. It took her years to get over that and finally be proud of me as a gay man.
But all of this was as an adult. I can only imagine what it might be like for some of these kids in their homes. And being told by some folks that they must not ever act on their orientation for fear of eternal torture cannot make things any better. For for me, it got better. I changed my views about Christianity without abandoning my faith. I am now convinced that I am OK with God as an openly gay man.
It got better. I found other kids “like me” in High School. I began to meet well-adjusted gay people in college. IMost importantly, I met gay Christians who encouraged me not to abandon my Christian faith. It got worse. It got better. But I would not have it any other way. I pray that LGBT kids will find true allies who care more about them as kids than about any “agenda” they may have. That’s what is needed here and now.
@ Debbie,
Wise teacher.
Eddy, I appreciate the sentiment in what you are suggesting. I can’t help, however, thinking of how dismally ineffective our decades-long campaign in the war on drugs has been. And lest we forget, the media and entertainment industry are really part of the problem. Gangsta Rap and MTV? What hypocrisy to think of those folks touting an anti-bullying message. I don’t see it working.
That would certainly be a step in the right direction. And where there is a school counselor, let them work with the bullies, as David also pointed to. It’s interesting that we have the bloated (with funds) NEA looking out for teachers’ interests, but barely a soul to protect the kids from each other. Perhaps the NEA has a role to play in preventing bullying as well.
I think the “It only gets worse” video should be ignored. No reasonable person is going to watch that and agree with those sentiments. However, if people start protesting it (and calling on Christian Right groups to do the same) you are going to be giving this person what he wants, Publicity.
I watched the 1st 30 sec and stopped. To those who haven’t watched it, I recommend you don’t. All that will do is upset you and increase the view count on the video.
ken – I agree with you on the “It only gets worse” thing. His video only gets worse…
It looks like it was made on an early version of Movie Maker, with a home movie camera on a tripod. There is nothing there but a guy with a website and a KJV.
Warren wrote
Sorry I can’t contribute to that, since I’m in Europe. But I did contribute here to starting programs that target identifying children who are at risk of having emotional and adjustment problems because of early interactions between their temperament and environment, and that includes bullying too as well as other interactions.
Zoe,
I was following you to this point…they I could imagine the “over-caution” brain dead response being triggered.
Make one person in the school responsible…get them training and pay them a bonus…protect them personally from liability, but not the district…direct all complaints to that person. Have a liason at the police department to assess for risk.
In California, teachers are mandated reporters of any suspected child abuse. This has to be done with a call within 24 hours to the proper authorities and accompanied by a written report to CPS.
Do teachers and administrators understand that this should (does) include bullying and child-on-child violence? Isn’t mandated reporting for teachers and school officials the law in other states?
Pardon me “bullying kid”…not bullied kid.
Not only job threatening but it should be recognized as a criminal offense because ignoring the safety of another (in the work place) has been so classified as criminal.
Mary wrote
‘it is very difficult to stop every action of hitting, name calling, pushing, etc…etc….‘
Even teachers can be bullied. I know of a few cases in which high school teachers have been bullied. So they don’t always control what happens in their class, sometimes for reasons which include their own security.
@ David.
True. I had band class and there was an incident of which I had no awareness. I still wonder how it is that a child could threaten another child with death and I didn’t catch it. I just didn’t catch it.
Eddy,
I’m not saying that it would not be mortifying to have one’s nakedness splashed on the internet for all the world to see. But I would live through it. And there are many others who have had their moments displayed publicly – and they live through it.
Me, the porn-star, lol……
Debbie–
I realize that it’s often difficult to leave a direct question unanswered but consider 1) that you did say that you were exiting the conversation and 2) that dialogues between you and Timothy have NEVER gone anywhere. I can’t recall when he’s ever shown an ounce of respect for you or your opinions. I, for one, don’t think it would be ungracious of you to leave his burning questions unanswered.
There is a place to have a meaningful and productive voice but this isn’t it.
Peace!
Debbie,
Linda Harvey has a new column out today in which she incorporates some themes that are familiar.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=211837
Do you agree or disagree with Linda? And on what points?
I reject your rights-vs-rights paradigm.
I know of no rights that are threatened by treating people equally and with dignity and respect. Only those who are accustomed to being given preference and who have presumptions of superiority are threatened by equality.
I could have reversed the statement to name other rights first, Timothy. Perhaps that would have angered you less. What I was saying is that a rights-vs.-rights war is getting us nowhere. Invariably, when one side hollers and demands “rights,” the other (or another) begins to feel disenfranchised or put upon. “Hey, you’re cutting into my turf” … “speaking over me” … whatever. It just seemed to me that this point was not brought out in our very long discussion. But no matter. I am shutting up now. I’ve had enough of it all.
I’ll not comment on the presumption of entitlement that is oozing out of this jolly little statement.
Ken, I am not going to participate with you in illustrating the very thing I was concerned about by arguing here. Tit-for-tat will not help move a meaningful discussion forward or serve to solve the problem we all want to see solved. Let’s just self-censor and let this go for now. I am sure others want to move on, as well. I do not discount your concerns. I am just weary, as many of us are, of the seemingly incessant need to fight this battle with a war of words. I have said too much, and it is time for me to be silent.
Debbie Thurman# ~ Oct 6, 2010 at 2:51 pm
“It’s a bigger picture than you are painting, Ken. Look at more of it. Look at all of humanity and not just the gay side for a moment.”
Look at WHAT Debbie? How does looking at ALL OF HUMANITY help? What suggestions do you have from looking at all of humanity? I look how kids mirror the attitudes of adults and how adults treat gays (and other minorities) and suggest treating gays equally under the law would help. Now, I acknowledge it won’t help the kids being bullied because of their weight or religion. However, simply because something doesn’t solve the problem for everyone doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done for those it can help.
“Make it about a safety net for hurting or confused kids, whatever that pain.”
Because you have to understand what is CAUSING the pain to help alleviate it. Broad generalizations aren’t going to help. You have to get into the details.
“The problem can be addressed without making gay rights the centerpiece of it.”
I never said it should be the centerpiece. I was responding to your assertions that it would somehow cause “bedlam.” I believe it will help, not hurt.
It’s a bigger picture than you are painting, Ken. Look at more of it. Look at all of humanity and not just the gay side for a moment. Make it an issue of respect for all without the need to bully any. Make it about a safety net for hurting or confused kids, whatever that pain. But realize that the messages they are hearing from both sides of this culture war are contributing to that confusion.
We have talked here about getting the culture war, the ideology out of it. Good idea. The problem can be addressed without making gay rights the centerpiece of it. That’s not saying to pretend sexual identity ought not be addressed. It’s saying don’t make it the centerpiece of a much broader problem. I think we need to ask ourselves why we have had this sudden rash of suicides. Is there something we are overlooking? Are we rushing to judgment?
Debbie Thurman# ~ Oct 6, 2010 at 11:04 am
“When you set up gay rights over against “other” rights or perceived rights, you get bedlam”
Like the “bedlam” that ensued when minorities were given equal rights? You prefer a system where certain classes are denied the same rights as others?
Do you think that adults treating gays as 2nd class citizens has nothing to do with teens and children targeting them as well?
Ken, I am not going to participate with you in illustrating the very thing I was concerned about by arguing here. Tit-for-tat will not help move a meaningful discussion forward or serve to solve the problem we all want to see solved. Let’s just self-censor and let this go for now. I am sure others want to move on, as well. I do not discount your concerns. I am just weary, as many of us are, of the seemingly incessant need to fight this battle with a war of words. I have said too much, and it is time for me to be silent.
If we could only get beyond all the “rights” to the deeper things. Insisting on our right to ourselves (to use the phrase Oswald Chambers so often called Christians out with) is the cause of so many problems and wars in this world. When you set up gay rights over against “other” rights or perceived rights, you get bedlam. Always. It’s a never-ending tit-for-tat. So tiresome. So in need of being crushed into oblivion by our sensible better angels.
Evan# ~ Oct 6, 2010 at 6:47 am
“Jayhuck, what would you teach adult people to no longer reject gays?”
Mostly by giving them accurate information about sexual orientation, to counter stereotypes and mis-perceptions. Many people who personally know out gay people are more likely to be supportive of gay rights.
“What would you teach children to no longer reject atypical kids?”
compassion. that all people deserve respect.
It’s a bigger picture than you are painting, Ken. Look at more of it. Look at all of humanity and not just the gay side for a moment. Make it an issue of respect for all without the need to bully any. Make it about a safety net for hurting or confused kids, whatever that pain. But realize that the messages they are hearing from both sides of this culture war are contributing to that confusion.
We have talked here about getting the culture war, the ideology out of it. Good idea. The problem can be addressed without making gay rights the centerpiece of it. That’s not saying to pretend sexual identity ought not be addressed. It’s saying don’t make it the centerpiece of a much broader problem. I think we need to ask ourselves why we have had this sudden rash of suicides. Is there something we are overlooking? Are we rushing to judgment?
I just want to comment a bit on this statement of Evan’s and his follow-up question to Jayhuck, even though I get a sense that most folks are ready to move on from this discussion. I am sure it will piggyback to others because it’s a very important one.
Bullying is something that proves the selection and isolating process begins not in adulthood, but far earlier. Yes, people are sometimes born with certain handicaps or strikes against them from a worldly point of view. Kids do learn to prefer some over others because of cultural prejudices. In adulthood, the more mature and compassionate people can reverse this picture, if they choose, because they have the means to do it. Or they can cement it.
Children are too immature to catch all the subtleties, and yet some of them are more discerning and compassionate than their elders in this regard. Some of the great works of literature have child protagonists and heroic characters to teach the greatest moral lessons. And those are the kinds of tools that teachers and parents can use to teach the right stuff to kids. You can far more easily slip the message in this way than by forcing them to go to Sunday School. If they do both, so much the better. And of course, adults have the duty to model appropriate and moral behavior for children.
We have advocacy organizations and recovery ministries for the very reason that so many adults are warped and hurt by early experiences to the extent that they have fallen back on various addictive and unhealthy behaviors to ameliorate their pain. Yes, they can change those old patterns.
If we could only get beyond all the “rights” to the deeper things. Insisting on our right to ourselves (to use the phrase Oswald Chambers so often called Christians out with) is the cause of so many problems and wars in this world. When you set up gay rights over against “other” rights or perceived rights, you get bedlam. Always. It’s a never-ending tit-for-tat. So tiresome. So in need of being crushed into oblivion by our sensible better angels.
Evan# ~ Oct 6, 2010 at 6:47 am
“Jayhuck, what would you teach adult people to no longer reject gays?”
Mostly by giving them accurate information about sexual orientation, to counter stereotypes and mis-perceptions. Many people who personally know out gay people are more likely to be supportive of gay rights.
“What would you teach children to no longer reject atypical kids?”
compassion. that all people deserve respect.
Jayhuck, what would you teach adult people to no longer reject gays?
What would you teach children to no longer reject atypical kids?
I ask you this because you said that it’s a matter of teaching and learning.
Evan,
That may be true for some individuals Evan (definitely not all), but people can be taught, they can learn, and they can change. 🙂
Tremendously. I did not know a person could go for weeks barely sleeping at all and still live. Ate little, as well. That was me. A walking zombie and crazy as a loon.
Mary
I’m glad you have differentiated your position from the others which sounded similar. I misunderstood you, and I’m happy about that.
I have trouble coping with everyday life sometimes. I can only imagine what he was going through.
Debbie: — I am glad I misunderstood. I thought you meant that suicide could not be predicted or prenvented. Those of us who have worked in this field for decades know better.
The ‘that information’ Debbie was referring to was the post-mortem autopsy findings re depression or other psychological issues. The point was that whatever might be uncovered in Tyler’s circumstance would likely have NO impact on preventing a suicide in any other person. What WILL have impact is reviewing the circumstances of what actually happened…a climate that regards a gay person’s privacy as ‘without regard’…a climate that finds a gay person’s private sexual behavior as ‘publishable without permission’…an age where we have stealth electronics and the immediate capacity to publish and post without clear legal restrictions or clear legal repercussions. THIS is the information that would be most useful in preventing another suicide similar to Tyler’s…NOT whether he had other insecurities or tendencies towards depression.
If we found out more about what Tyler was thinking in the time between when he learned he was so publicly violated and the time he took his life. We could learn from that. Was his suicide all about despair or was there a mixture of motives? Was he perhaps trying to send a loud and clear message that such public violation is inhuman…did he see himself as a ‘martyr for the cause’? A glimpse into his specific thought patterns would shed far more light than the discovery that he had issues with depression or personal insecurity. Or consider that ‘home’ ought to be our ‘safe place’…when the world around us seems to be going mad, it’s our nature to seek the comfort of ‘home’. As a college student, Tyler’s ‘home’ was his dorm room…a dorm room he shared with the person who violated him so completely. Could you sleep in the same room with a person who treated you in this way? Could you eat? Study? Talk to friends? Have a good cry? Could you do any of those things without wondering if that too was being secretly filmed and broadcast? Could you do anything at all without wondering if you were being spied upon? How do lack of sleep and loss of appetite impact our psychological well-being…our ability to think and respond clearly?
I think you misunderstood what I said, Michael. My question was about an autopsy of a suicide victim that may or may not determine mental illness or help prevent suicide in other people. Someone else’s mental illness or brain trauma (determined — maybe — when his brain is vivisected, post-mortem) is not necessarily going to be an identifier that leads to suicide prevention in another. As you all are discussing, there is a myriad of social issues that factor in. Individuals react differently to social stimuli based on their temperaments, coping skills, experiences, etc.
Not just that, Michael B, but the whole thing is tied to this. Society is like a fabric: if you isolate a category of people, they will have mental health problems because of this. I think it has to do with the fact that all the people grew up around other people and somewhere in the back of their minds there was always another adult or friend that gave them a feeling of belonging and security. Then everyone grows up and the picture changes significantly: everyone makes a selection of the people they want around them and some categories of people tend to be selected out. I think that includes gays, as you said, but there are also other categories (those who are unattractive, who have certain traits that makes them socially undesirable, those who don’t speak very well the language of the country they live in, etc).
I disagree. We can use what we know right now to help prevent other suicides. That’s the whole point. You said it yourself, Debbie:
We can get better at early detection and treatment of depression.We can get better at recognizing and reaching out to those most at risk. We can educate the public about the harm of bullying. We can teach kids to respect and care for themselves and others. We can give them hope that life gets better.
We can get better and identifying and helping kids who feel driven to bully others. We can get tougher with offenders and with adults who fail to protect kids. We can create a more, just more tolerant, more compassionate society.
Our churches can get better at demonstrating how to truly love one’s neighbors. There is so much we can do — and we don’t have to waste a lot of time arguing “agendas” and wallowing in our own fears or preconceptions before we start. Suicide is preventable. It is possible. I think we have already done much to show that it’s true — through projects like the ones I have mentioned.
I agree. Identify and treat depresssion, teach LGBT kids to live healthy lives and help society treat all its members (especially kids) with dignity, love and respect for individual differences.
Collin Farrell Talks Bullying Against Gay Teens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pOoeo8o7QA&feature=player_embedded
..But there’s also the biological stuff.
Debbie wrote
I think that the real solution to this situation lies in the ‘Bermuda triangle’ psychiatry/mental illness–homosexuality–society structure. Any other solution than one that comes from this triangle is a palliative. The three share certain connections that are key to solving the social and personal problems vis-a-vis gender and sexual orientation (that includes bullying), either done by children or adults.
It is very likely that the mental health problems gays face come from the way society singles them out. This in turn determines how people are socialised, how they form groups, how much support they get from social groups and so on. This is likely to affect the mental health of those who are singled out for gender or sexual orientation reasons. I think we humans are a lot more social than we are willing to admit in this individualistic society. It’s no wonder that the WHO expects depression to be the leading cause for disability in a few decades.
As do I. We can really only unravel what we see unfolding or what a person tells us through their words or actions. We may feel the need to try to explain, after the fact, someone’s suicide as part of a mental illness, but how on earth can we use that information to prevent it in any other person? No possible.
Also, we already have had an ominous push (under George W. Bush, no less) for universal mental health screening, all the way down to infants. Schools would be the primary screening ground under some of the plans that have been proposed in the past (Google TMAP sometime). Kids are over-medicated as it is, as is much of the adult population. Just what we need — screening for suicide, given that some antidepressants drive kids toward it rather than prevent it.
It’s a no-brainer that adolescence is tough. It’s a no-brainer that’s it’s tougher for gay kids. And we all know that bullying can send some over the edge into suicidal or homicidal rage. We know plenty.
Evan,
That may be true for some individuals Evan (definitely not all), but people can be taught, they can learn, and they can change. 🙂
Mary
I’m glad you have differentiated your position from the others which sounded similar. I misunderstood you, and I’m happy about that.
Online, I have been closely watching the response to the terrible tragedy of LGBT suicides.
A national reponse has been mobilized through such programs as the Trevor Project, the “Give A Damn” campaign”, the “It Gets Better” project” on Youtube — and many celebrities coming forward to add their voices. Very encouraging.
I still think it would be much more powerful if it were cross-denominational, “liberal” and “conservative.” I sincerely hope that is what it will become.
As my earlier comments re Tyler suggest, I lean towards Michael’s views on this one.
They can autopsy for other signs of depression and the likelihood of suicidal ideation if they feel they need to but I see enough explanation in the actual circumstances that led up to his suicide. You all can debate if that was enough to push an otherwise whole person over the edge. Even a post-mortem determination that he had other issues wouldn’t answer the question if this type of trauma, in and of itself, wouldn’t be sufficient.
It is my sincere hope that our anti-bullying efforts don’t stop with physical or ‘in person’ bullying but that we move on to responsibly address cyber-bullying as well. One very significant difference between the two is that ‘in person’ bullying is usually private and secretive…the whole world is not a witness to the bullying and the victim is usually aware of who the witnesses are. That’s not at all true with cyber-bullying. The injury is compounded by the realization that the victim has no way of knowing who all has ‘witnessed’ their shaming. It magnifies the sense of being powerless.
I have trouble coping with everyday life sometimes. I can only imagine what he was going through.
Debbie: — I am glad I misunderstood. I thought you meant that suicide could not be predicted or prenvented. Those of us who have worked in this field for decades know better.
The ‘that information’ Debbie was referring to was the post-mortem autopsy findings re depression or other psychological issues. The point was that whatever might be uncovered in Tyler’s circumstance would likely have NO impact on preventing a suicide in any other person. What WILL have impact is reviewing the circumstances of what actually happened…a climate that regards a gay person’s privacy as ‘without regard’…a climate that finds a gay person’s private sexual behavior as ‘publishable without permission’…an age where we have stealth electronics and the immediate capacity to publish and post without clear legal restrictions or clear legal repercussions. THIS is the information that would be most useful in preventing another suicide similar to Tyler’s…NOT whether he had other insecurities or tendencies towards depression.
If we found out more about what Tyler was thinking in the time between when he learned he was so publicly violated and the time he took his life. We could learn from that. Was his suicide all about despair or was there a mixture of motives? Was he perhaps trying to send a loud and clear message that such public violation is inhuman…did he see himself as a ‘martyr for the cause’? A glimpse into his specific thought patterns would shed far more light than the discovery that he had issues with depression or personal insecurity. Or consider that ‘home’ ought to be our ‘safe place’…when the world around us seems to be going mad, it’s our nature to seek the comfort of ‘home’. As a college student, Tyler’s ‘home’ was his dorm room…a dorm room he shared with the person who violated him so completely. Could you sleep in the same room with a person who treated you in this way? Could you eat? Study? Talk to friends? Have a good cry? Could you do any of those things without wondering if that too was being secretly filmed and broadcast? Could you do anything at all without wondering if you were being spied upon? How do lack of sleep and loss of appetite impact our psychological well-being…our ability to think and respond clearly?
I think you misunderstood what I said, Michael. My question was about an autopsy of a suicide victim that may or may not determine mental illness or help prevent suicide in other people. Someone else’s mental illness or brain trauma (determined — maybe — when his brain is vivisected, post-mortem) is not necessarily going to be an identifier that leads to suicide prevention in another. As you all are discussing, there is a myriad of social issues that factor in. Individuals react differently to social stimuli based on their temperaments, coping skills, experiences, etc.
Not just that, Michael B, but the whole thing is tied to this. Society is like a fabric: if you isolate a category of people, they will have mental health problems because of this. I think it has to do with the fact that all the people grew up around other people and somewhere in the back of their minds there was always another adult or friend that gave them a feeling of belonging and security. Then everyone grows up and the picture changes significantly: everyone makes a selection of the people they want around them and some categories of people tend to be selected out. I think that includes gays, as you said, but there are also other categories (those who are unattractive, who have certain traits that makes them socially undesirable, those who don’t speak very well the language of the country they live in, etc).
I disagree. We can use what we know right now to help prevent other suicides. That’s the whole point. You said it yourself, Debbie:
We can get better at early detection and treatment of depression.We can get better at recognizing and reaching out to those most at risk. We can educate the public about the harm of bullying. We can teach kids to respect and care for themselves and others. We can give them hope that life gets better.
We can get better and identifying and helping kids who feel driven to bully others. We can get tougher with offenders and with adults who fail to protect kids. We can create a more, just more tolerant, more compassionate society.
Our churches can get better at demonstrating how to truly love one’s neighbors. There is so much we can do — and we don’t have to waste a lot of time arguing “agendas” and wallowing in our own fears or preconceptions before we start. Suicide is preventable. It is possible. I think we have already done much to show that it’s true — through projects like the ones I have mentioned.
I am more concerned about the social and religious conditions that come from outside the kid. Let’s start the “autopsy” there.
I agree. Identify and treat depresssion, teach LGBT kids to live healthy lives and help society treat all its members (especially kids) with dignity, love and respect for individual differences.
We use the knowledge of investigating to try and prevent the same conditions from existing in someone else. We can’t stop every suicide. But we can effect the rate of occurrence.
..But there’s also the biological stuff.
Debbie wrote
I think that the real solution to this situation lies in the ‘Bermuda triangle’ psychiatry/mental illness–homosexuality–society structure. Any other solution than one that comes from this triangle is a palliative. The three share certain connections that are key to solving the social and personal problems vis-a-vis gender and sexual orientation (that includes bullying), either done by children or adults.
It is very likely that the mental health problems gays face come from the way society singles them out. This in turn determines how people are socialised, how they form groups, how much support they get from social groups and so on. This is likely to affect the mental health of those who are singled out for gender or sexual orientation reasons. I think we humans are a lot more social than we are willing to admit in this individualistic society. It’s no wonder that the WHO expects depression to be the leading cause for disability in a few decades.
While we are talking about October being bullying prevention month, it may also may pertinent to mention that it is depression awareness month. National Depression Screening Day this year is Oct. 7.
As my earlier comments re Tyler suggest, I lean towards Michael’s views on this one.
They can autopsy for other signs of depression and the likelihood of suicidal ideation if they feel they need to but I see enough explanation in the actual circumstances that led up to his suicide. You all can debate if that was enough to push an otherwise whole person over the edge. Even a post-mortem determination that he had other issues wouldn’t answer the question if this type of trauma, in and of itself, wouldn’t be sufficient.
It is my sincere hope that our anti-bullying efforts don’t stop with physical or ‘in person’ bullying but that we move on to responsibly address cyber-bullying as well. One very significant difference between the two is that ‘in person’ bullying is usually private and secretive…the whole world is not a witness to the bullying and the victim is usually aware of who the witnesses are. That’s not at all true with cyber-bullying. The injury is compounded by the realization that the victim has no way of knowing who all has ‘witnessed’ their shaming. It magnifies the sense of being powerless.
Not sure how that relates to Eddy’s autopsy question, but it does bring to the fore the fact that it can be very difficult to catch someone who is suicidal and prevent it. Some give signals, others don’t. We don’t know the extent of the silent suffering. Some people actually appear calmer and happier just before a planned suicide since they feel they have resolved the situation.
There are so many things that contribute to depression. For me, it was only my faith, ingrained in me since childhood, that kept me from doing myself in at my lowest point. One pinpoint light of hope was enough for me. Guilt, anger turned inward, shame at having my sins publicly aired. It all factored in. I had support. Can’t do it without that.
I kind of agree with Mary here. Even though he had been treated very badly by his peers, he had options that he didn’t see as options when he took his life. He could have moved to a different university, for instance.
Having been exposed on facebook doesn’t necessarily mean that the entire world knew what he was doing in bed. And even so, what would be so serious about that that it would be worth one’s life?
The students who did this to him were the jerks and he could have treated them as what they are, instead of punishing himself. But it’s easy to say that when we don’t know the whole history behind this event, and apparently there is one. He had been previously shown that people around him don’t like him being gay. He felt cornered, then shamed, so he reacted in a way as if he was trying to punish his oppressors with his death.
Anyway, too much text.
They do it so they can catch the stream of depression before it becomes a suicide.
I kind of agree with Mary here. Even though he had been treated very badly by his peers, he had options that he didn’t see as options when he took his life. He could have moved to a different university, for instance.
Having been exposed on facebook doesn’t necessarily mean that the entire world knew what he was doing in bed. And even so, what would be so serious about that that it would be worth one’s life?
The students who did this to him were the jerks and he could have treated them as what they are, instead of punishing himself. But it’s easy to say that when we don’t know the whole history behind this event, and apparently there is one. He had been previously shown that people around him don’t like him being gay. He felt cornered, then shamed, so he reacted in a way as if he was trying to punish his oppressors with his death.
Anyway, too much text.
And I hope and pray that it never does!!! What on earth would be gained by it? Sometimes I feel like I must be an alien on this planet. What’s with our never-ending ‘need to know’? Would knowing the psychological results impact how we teach future college roommates on what private videos they should and shouldn’t film of their roommates? On which ones they should and shouldn’t post on the internet? Would the discovery that he had ‘issues’ lessen the guilt and responsibility of the callous fools who posted the vid? Would the discover that he didn’t change anything at all? Please, someone…anyone…enlighten me.
Actually, often in the case of a suicide, not only is a physical autopsy performed – but alo psychological autopsy. And I’ll bet that never becomes public information.
I’m not personally involved. But I do fully comprehend the nuances between societal tolerance and acceptance of female to female as opposed to male to male sex. I do understand that ‘college age’ is just after high school and still very vulnerable–even when ‘whole’. And I also understand that ANY homemade vid is less than flattering. Any ‘whole’ person who was ‘private’ by nature could have easily been completely undone by such an outrageous act.
Again, not trying to debate…just expressing that even someone who wasn’t particularly ‘vulnerable’ would be set to reeling by those circumstances. And, I wonder, just for curiosity’s sake, if he hadn’t taken his life…would the vids still be playing on YouTube? Do we really have any mechanism to shut down such a display other than some dramatic (and tragic) event?
I know….cyber-bullying…another day…another thread. The internet…a world that lacks some necessary laws and governance.
Eddy,
In after thought…..? I just will not be convinced that we have the complete picture of this man’s state of mind. I am not “robbing” him of any one thing. I’d like to think that I took the time to consider him more of a person than just some gay guy who was embarrassed and had his rights violated.
Already weakened camel’s back = meaning = he had other burdens to carry along with this humiliation.
Sounds like you are personally involved. I’m not going down curvey road. I made my point. You may disagree and do so all the while.
They do it so they can catch the stream of depression before it becomes a suicide.
No, Mary, you said ‘an already weak camel’s back.
The way we refuse to see things that are real is do damn tiresome!
How many damnable hoops do I dance through just to make it clear that Tyler Clemente (who wasn’t the topic of this post) could have been a basically whole person without baggage who may have taken his life ONLY because the injustice heaped upon him was staggering…brutally staggering.
Mary,
I don’t give a hoot what YOU could have endured. Hell, even the straight males of our society see ‘woman on woman’ sex as thrilling. We’re talking about the man whose wholeness you questioned. He wasn’t filmed having sex with a woman…he was filmed having sex with a man. And the few pictures I’ve seen of him don’t suggest ‘porn star’. Latest reports indicate that the man on man thing doesn’t even thrill women the way that woman on woman thrills men.
Can we please lay aside our theoretical conjectures and picture a college student who was shamed publically in the eyes of his peers to a degree that none of us has ever experienced?
I have no other comment than to repeat that we ought not to rob him even further than to speculate on his emotional/mental wholeness.
It’s not a debate, by the way. You may be right….perhaps he wasn’t ‘all together’. However, since you did bring it up, I thought it just and fair to raise a counter opinion that might also be true. And we’ll NEVER know. The only person who has the answer is DEAD. They no longer have a voice. Let’s be extremely careful and respectful with whatever voice we choose to give them.
BTW, if a person does commit suicide, it is because they feel they have come to the end of their resources and does not have the strength to get through. That may be weakness but certainly not weakness of one’s soul or character. Some people really do just get tired and throw in the towel.
We have no idea of the event, experiences, thoughts and choices that are in another person’s life. What decisions they choose to make with the knowledge they have about themselves When I write “… the straw that broke an already weak camel’s back…” I am not implying that he was weak in character, or dignity or integrity. I am implying that he felt that the weight was too much too carry – or live with.
No Timothy. No.
I am suggesting that he had more on his plate than the one vent of being broadcast having sex. Whatever that may be is speculative. I doubt he felt comfortable with his sexuality – but that’s just a guess. And I even think that he had more on his mind than just that – again – that’s just a guess.
A person usually doesn’t jump to their death without having given it more thought. There is usually lots of ambiguity surrounding the decision to suicide and symptoms weeks and months prior to the event.
Please don’t twist my speculation into some demented uncaring person. If you do that then your just looking for a fight where there is none. I feel for the young man. I really do.
Even a seasoned mental health professional will tell you – there had to be something more going on.
Tom Prichard of the Minnesota Family Association also says something similar:
Mary,
I may be misunderstanding your point. You seem to be suggesting that Clementi killed himself because he was weak and that this weakness was related to his own shame of his sexuality.
I read something similar this week from Christian writer Vox Day:
He suggests that it is not anti-gay animus that is to blame for gay suicides, but gay rights which is at fault. While the thinking behind that argument is evident in the postings of some who comment here, I’m not sure whether this is consistent with your thinking.
What folks do in the privacy of their bedrooms is and ought to be their business. I suppose the average person today would survive a Carrie Prejean or a Dr. Laura lapse caught on camera and not go jump off a bridge. You had me worried there for a minute, Evan. 🙂
Eddy,
I’m not saying that it would not be mortifying to have one’s nakedness splashed on the internet for all the world to see. But I would live through it. And there are many others who have had their moments displayed publicly – and they live through it.
And I hope and pray that it never does!!! What on earth would be gained by it? Sometimes I feel like I must be an alien on this planet. What’s with our never-ending ‘need to know’? Would knowing the psychological results impact how we teach future college roommates on what private videos they should and shouldn’t film of their roommates? On which ones they should and shouldn’t post on the internet? Would the discovery that he had ‘issues’ lessen the guilt and responsibility of the callous fools who posted the vid? Would the discover that he didn’t change anything at all? Please, someone…anyone…enlighten me.
Me, the porn-star, lol……
I haven’t said I would want to show myself to others getting in bed with a woman. I said I wouldn’t mind much, which means getting caught on camera by others without my consent wouldn’t be a tragedy. That’s all.
I’m not personally involved. But I do fully comprehend the nuances between societal tolerance and acceptance of female to female as opposed to male to male sex. I do understand that ‘college age’ is just after high school and still very vulnerable–even when ‘whole’. And I also understand that ANY homemade vid is less than flattering. Any ‘whole’ person who was ‘private’ by nature could have easily been completely undone by such an outrageous act.
Again, not trying to debate…just expressing that even someone who wasn’t particularly ‘vulnerable’ would be set to reeling by those circumstances. And, I wonder, just for curiosity’s sake, if he hadn’t taken his life…would the vids still be playing on YouTube? Do we really have any mechanism to shut down such a display other than some dramatic (and tragic) event?
I know….cyber-bullying…another day…another thread. The internet…a world that lacks some necessary laws and governance.
Was channeling my inner Yoda: “that picture”
Porn-star wannabes notwithstanding, cyber sex only contributes to the degrading environment that has helped foster the false if-it-feels-good-do-it picture we all should agree is not healthy for anybody. Oh, and you can add to picture that the sub-theme of if-it-empowers-one-at-the-expense-of-the-other. And that does get into the realm of bullying.
Already weakened camel’s back = meaning = he had other burdens to carry along with this humiliation.
Sounds like you are personally involved. I’m not going down curvey road. I made my point. You may disagree and do so all the while.
No, Mary, you said ‘an already weak camel’s back.
The way we refuse to see things that are real is do damn tiresome!
How many damnable hoops do I dance through just to make it clear that Tyler Clemente (who wasn’t the topic of this post) could have been a basically whole person without baggage who may have taken his life ONLY because the injustice heaped upon him was staggering…brutally staggering.
Mary,
I don’t give a hoot what YOU could have endured. Hell, even the straight males of our society see ‘woman on woman’ sex as thrilling. We’re talking about the man whose wholeness you questioned. He wasn’t filmed having sex with a woman…he was filmed having sex with a man. And the few pictures I’ve seen of him don’t suggest ‘porn star’. Latest reports indicate that the man on man thing doesn’t even thrill women the way that woman on woman thrills men.
Can we please lay aside our theoretical conjectures and picture a college student who was shamed publically in the eyes of his peers to a degree that none of us has ever experienced?
I have no other comment than to repeat that we ought not to rob him even further than to speculate on his emotional/mental wholeness.
It’s not a debate, by the way. You may be right….perhaps he wasn’t ‘all together’. However, since you did bring it up, I thought it just and fair to raise a counter opinion that might also be true. And we’ll NEVER know. The only person who has the answer is DEAD. They no longer have a voice. Let’s be extremely careful and respectful with whatever voice we choose to give them.
Oops, sorry Warren, I posted twice. You can delete one, if you want.
BTW, if a person does commit suicide, it is because they feel they have come to the end of their resources and does not have the strength to get through. That may be weakness but certainly not weakness of one’s soul or character. Some people really do just get tired and throw in the towel.
We have no idea of the event, experiences, thoughts and choices that are in another person’s life. What decisions they choose to make with the knowledge they have about themselves When I write “… the straw that broke an already weak camel’s back…” I am not implying that he was weak in character, or dignity or integrity. I am implying that he felt that the weight was too much too carry – or live with.
@Eddy
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded much. If some of the folks I know saw me having sex with my girlfriend, I would have probably been proud that they’re the ones watching and I’m the one doing the action. 🙂 And I’ve done some pretty wild stuff with my ex.
But then, as I said, the status of one’s sexuality matters a lot. And the status of this guy’s sexuality was that of a minority. Until that gets resolved, programs that deal with this sort of problems will only mitigate some of the effects but won’t deal with the problem “from the root”.
@Eddy
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded much. If some of the folks I know saw me having sex with my girlfriend, I would have probably been proud that they’re the ones watching and I’m the one doing the action. 🙂 And I’ve done some pretty wild stuff with my ex.
But then, as I said, the status of one’s sexuality matters a lot. And the status of this guy’s sexuality was that of a minority. Until that gets resolved, programs that deal with this sort of problems will only mitigate some of the effects but won’t deal with the problem “from the root”.
No Timothy. No.
I am suggesting that he had more on his plate than the one vent of being broadcast having sex. Whatever that may be is speculative. I doubt he felt comfortable with his sexuality – but that’s just a guess. And I even think that he had more on his mind than just that – again – that’s just a guess.
A person usually doesn’t jump to their death without having given it more thought. There is usually lots of ambiguity surrounding the decision to suicide and symptoms weeks and months prior to the event.
Please don’t twist my speculation into some demented uncaring person. If you do that then your just looking for a fight where there is none. I feel for the young man. I really do.
Even a seasoned mental health professional will tell you – there had to be something more going on.
Tom Prichard of the Minnesota Family Association also says something similar:
MY MY MY…we had to go back 3 days and over 40 posts to find a way justify a link re church ‘feed the homeless’ programs on this thread about bullying.
I’m thinking that perhaps the site motto should be “Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here”.
In keeping with that message and in response to the attitude that continually finds ways to throw it in our faces, I think it’s time I give up trying to change the church. Every time I feel a glimmer of hope or think that it’s a cause worth pursuing, I’m reminded yet again of how truly pointless such efforts would be. Thanks, TK, for being that voice in the wilderness. Keep up the good work.
Mary,
I may be misunderstanding your point. You seem to be suggesting that Clementi killed himself because he was weak and that this weakness was related to his own shame of his sexuality.
I read something similar this week from Christian writer Vox Day:
He suggests that it is not anti-gay animus that is to blame for gay suicides, but gay rights which is at fault. While the thinking behind that argument is evident in the postings of some who comment here, I’m not sure whether this is consistent with your thinking.
What folks do in the privacy of their bedrooms is and ought to be their business. I suppose the average person today would survive a Carrie Prejean or a Dr. Laura lapse caught on camera and not go jump off a bridge. You had me worried there for a minute, Evan. 🙂
Michael,
Wouldn’t that be nice? I”m not particularly hopeful.
Mary–
I disagree with you on that one. Even a well-grounded person would find the public video of themselves engaging in sex very disturbing. This public airing was outrageous. If it was a public ‘outing’ even moreso. Imagine living in a world where people knew what you looked like naked…that you wouldn’t know when you met someone whether they had or hadn’t seen the video. He was a musician…imagine trying to perform in public and being haunted by the notion that when someone in the audience whispers an aside to the person next to them, that they could be talking about your private parts, your naked body, your sexual interests. How on earth would even a well-grounded person perform ‘damage control’ on such a revelation?
Have mom or dad seen this? Has someone said something to others in my family? What about my professors? My fellow performers? My friends back home? The new friends I’ve been making here at school? I can easily envision a well-grounded person being catapulted into a spin beyond imagination.
His right to privacy was robbed from him and I wouldn’t contribute further to the robbery by speculating on the ‘wholeness’ of his mental and emotional state.
Clementi had an expectation of privacy. That was violated. And he may have had his own shame of his sexuality with which he tried to manage. To push an otherwise well developed person with a good sense of self over the bridge just doesn’t happen over something like this. However, to violate a privacy is a violation. This is just the straw that broke an already weakened camel’s back.
I haven’t said I would want to show myself to others getting in bed with a woman. I said I wouldn’t mind much, which means getting caught on camera by others without my consent wouldn’t be a tragedy. That’s all.
Was channeling my inner Yoda: “that picture”
Porn-star wannabes notwithstanding, cyber sex only contributes to the degrading environment that has helped foster the false if-it-feels-good-do-it picture we all should agree is not healthy for anybody. Oh, and you can add to picture that the sub-theme of if-it-empowers-one-at-the-expense-of-the-other. And that does get into the realm of bullying.
Oops, sorry Warren, I posted twice. You can delete one, if you want.
@Eddy
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded much. If some of the folks I know saw me having sex with my girlfriend, I would have probably been proud that they’re the ones watching and I’m the one doing the action. 🙂 And I’ve done some pretty wild stuff with my ex.
But then, as I said, the status of one’s sexuality matters a lot. And the status of this guy’s sexuality was that of a minority. Until that gets resolved, programs that deal with this sort of problems will only mitigate some of the effects but won’t deal with the problem “from the root”.
@Eddy
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded much. If some of the folks I know saw me having sex with my girlfriend, I would have probably been proud that they’re the ones watching and I’m the one doing the action. 🙂 And I’ve done some pretty wild stuff with my ex.
But then, as I said, the status of one’s sexuality matters a lot. And the status of this guy’s sexuality was that of a minority. Until that gets resolved, programs that deal with this sort of problems will only mitigate some of the effects but won’t deal with the problem “from the root”.
Michael,
Wouldn’t that be nice? I”m not particularly hopeful.
Mary–
I disagree with you on that one. Even a well-grounded person would find the public video of themselves engaging in sex very disturbing. This public airing was outrageous. If it was a public ‘outing’ even moreso. Imagine living in a world where people knew what you looked like naked…that you wouldn’t know when you met someone whether they had or hadn’t seen the video. He was a musician…imagine trying to perform in public and being haunted by the notion that when someone in the audience whispers an aside to the person next to them, that they could be talking about your private parts, your naked body, your sexual interests. How on earth would even a well-grounded person perform ‘damage control’ on such a revelation?
Have mom or dad seen this? Has someone said something to others in my family? What about my professors? My fellow performers? My friends back home? The new friends I’ve been making here at school? I can easily envision a well-grounded person being catapulted into a spin beyond imagination.
His right to privacy was robbed from him and I wouldn’t contribute further to the robbery by speculating on the ‘wholeness’ of his mental and emotional state.
Clementi had an expectation of privacy. That was violated. And he may have had his own shame of his sexuality with which he tried to manage. To push an otherwise well developed person with a good sense of self over the bridge just doesn’t happen over something like this. However, to violate a privacy is a violation. This is just the straw that broke an already weakened camel’s back.
FWIW, I do happen to agree with Ken. Exodus chose to use this tragedy as the impetus for its bullying commentary and policy statement, but it would have been more appropriate to point to other recent tragedies where school bullying was the issue. Clementi’s suicide appears to have been more the result of the severe degrading that came from a violation of his privacy and others gratifying their sick voyeuristic lust at his expense. They dehumanized him.
I don’t think the Tyler Clementi suicide is a case of bullying. It appears to be more a case of stupidity (and possibly some homophobia) on the part of his roommate and neighbor, but not bullying. While tragic, and an example of how anti-gay attitudes can do damage, I don’t think it is the same as the Seth Walsh, Asher Brown or Tyler Wilson cases.
Zoe–
With all due respect, your personal limitations on accepting facts aren’t my responsiblilty. And I don’t believe I’m quite ready to cave in and change the meaning of the colloquialism ‘kinda’ to suit you.
My comment went to those employed in the schools just as the one it was responding to went to those employed in the military.
Mary# ~ Oct 2, 2010 at 10:19 pm
“WHO CARES ABOUT ALAN CHAMBERS!!!!! He’s not the only voice of us!”
Far to many people care about what Chambers says, and that is part of the problem. While he may not speak for you, Mary (or anyone who posts here), he does speak for Exodus.
Mary# ~ Oct 3, 2010 at 12:08 pm
“William, You post is polarizing.”
Perhaps it was, but it was not inaccurate. Perhaps you should direct your anger at those organizations, rather than William. They are the ones giving conservative christians (and christians in general) a bad name. William is merely pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.
FWIW, I do happen to agree with Ken. Exodus chose to use this tragedy as the impetus for its bullying commentary and policy statement, but it would have been more appropriate to point to other recent tragedies where school bullying was the issue. Clementi’s suicide appears to have been more the result of the severe degrading that came from a violation of his privacy and others gratifying their sick voyeuristic lust at his expense. They dehumanized him.
Eddy – tell me when schools initiate an investigation and expell a student as the result of an anonymous tip that they might possibly be practicing christians. Then. and only then, will I consider that they have a “kinda” DADT policy.
While I get your point, my statement itself was true…schools do indeed ‘kinda have a policy’.
Eddy,
Fair enough, but this statement isn’t true either
Kids can talk about their religion in schools, kids can meet to pray – its not anywhere near the same thing simply because school administrators and teachers can’t be seen to be endorsing or supporting one religion over another.
Sorry, Jayhuck, but this statement isn’t true.
It wasn’t several wonderful paragraphs on preventing bullying. 1) It was ONE paragraph 2) it wasn’t all that wonderful because 3) it claimed to be against bullying but it was, as I explained with the whole ‘therefore’ thing, it was all hinged on ‘anti-gay’ bullying. Your statement would have been closer to true if you said that it was ‘a wonderful paragraph on preventing anti-gay bullying’.
Re ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’. Isn’t it ironic that public schools kinda have a policy on that against Christians or any religions?
Debbie,
Only if they are incredibly careful about what they talk about and to whom and that their actions don’t give away who they truly are.
Eddy,
The “gay filter”? It is not gay people who are making this about the gay kids – The Safe Schools Improvement Act supported by GLSEN and most other mainstream groups doesn’t single out gay people for special treatment – it names a number of groups – per usual, it is the conservative Christians who want to block speech about gay people that are making it a gay-issue – Its just that gay people now have to respond to this attitude of opposition.
Eddy,
It raised an eyebrow Eddy because after several wonderful paragraphs on preventing bullying, they end with a political statement – which, in my eyes, tarnishes the ENTIRE message.
I’m going to regard this thread as one that has been officially hijacked with little hope of getting back on track. We just escaped from a thread that met a slow and painful death after going down this road…I believe that’s the reason Warren tried to steer us away from focussing on a particular cause for the bullying but, as is our way, everything must pass through the gay filter.
Asher was ” picked on for his small size, his religion and because he did not wear designer clothes and shoes. Kids also accused him of being gay”. He was bullied for a number of reasons, but here, we’ll only remember one.
Way over the top. Who is opposed to suicide prevention? Some are opposed to some elements of politicized programs. No one supports bullying. BTW, gays can and do serve honorably in the military.
“When Does Opposition to Suicide Prevention Equal Murder?”
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/
Mary, I really don’t think that there can be any middle ground here, at least not in any meaningful sense. Either one wants to put a stop to anti-gay bullying or one doesn’t. Anyone who says “No, of course we don’t condone anti-gay bullying, and yes, of course we must nip it in the bud”, but who, no matter what his or her motives, approves only of policies that throw a bucket of fudge over the issue of this particular kind of bullying is simply trying to face both ways and lacks credibility.
@ William,
Seems you made a similar post on another blog. And you rec’d kudos from a person who has pretty much been warned to tone down the accusations and rhetoric – on other blogs. Is there a place where maybe the two extremes can be wrong and somewhere in the middle is a good answer?
Excuse, me, but did anybody actually ready Randy Thomas’ blog post? You seem to be fixating on the bullying policy statement. How about this?
William,
You post is polarizing. Have you read the post from the conservative christians who have contributed to this blog? Your sarcasm, opinionism, and bias are just as much a distraction to solving the issue as the person who truns a blind eye.
I think that the following would be a fair summary of the position of Exodus and of those other so-called family advocates who oppose any bullying prevention measures that specifically mention anti-gay bullying:
“We don’t, of course, actually want students to be bullied because they’re gay or are believed to be gay – at any rate we wouldn’t positively encourage it – and we agree that schools have a duty to put a stop to bullying of this kind. (You have to say the right thing when all other possibilities have been exhausted.) But we will approve only of a general statement that bullying for any reason is wrong, using the specious argument (which we know full well to be disingenuous) that any specific mention of anti-gay bullying would be giving gays “special treatment”. If we were to acknowledge to pupils that we know that some children are being bullied because they are (or are believed to be) gay, we would then have to make it absolutely clear to them that the rule that bullying for any reason will not be tolerated includes bullying anyone because they’re gay. That’s precisely what we don’t want to do. So if we can’t stop such bullying without acknowledging that we know the reason for it, then the bullying will just have to continue. A pity, but there it is.”
Interesting observations. This did start out as a thread about ‘bullying in general’. Warren even appealed in his closing ‘Please no debating about why he was bullied’. And I come home last night to discussion of the official Exodus Policy Statement on Bullying. And the expressed concerns with the statement are the closing paragraph. It raised the eyebrows of both Jayhuck and Michael. Odd–so very odd.
The oddity is that we’ve been here claiming that we stand firmly against the bullying of all kids–for whatever the reason–and the majority of the criticisms directed against conservatives has been their objection to speaking specifically to anti-gay bullying. Now let’s look at that Policy Statement Against Bullying leaving off the paragraph that raised the eyebrows:
I learned in school, “when you see the word ‘therefore’, see what it’s there for.” Although this statement cites ‘any individual’, ‘any reason’ and ‘every human being’, the ‘therefore’ betrays a strong bias. While it’s entitled as a Statement on Bullying; it’s actually a Statement on Anti-Gay Bullying despite the feeble attempt to inject the inclusive ‘any’ and ‘every’. It’s all in the ‘therefore’. The ‘therefore’, naturally, goes to the preceding statement which is:
So, is that the reason ‘we strongly oppose bullying’ for ‘any’ and ‘every’? Because Jesus ‘died and loves equally’ ‘gay-identified individuals and those who struggle with same-sex attraction’? In a statement purportedly directed against bullying in general, why has ‘gay’ become the ‘therefore’? And why didn’t that raise eyebrows? Why, when it was introduced into this conversation with ‘no debating about why’, were no eyebrows raised that it elevated this reason for bullying above all others? Why did no one notice the disconnect between it’s broad title and it’s focussed theme? Is this a hint that while we claim that our cause is to make sure that gays aren’t left out of our anti-bullying programs…that, for some, they are instead the prime focus?
WHO CARES ABOUT ALAN CHAMBERS!!!!! He’s not the only voice of us!
Why Anti-Gay Bullying is a Theological Issue
And the moral imperative of anti-bullying preaching, teaching and activism A theology of anti-gay bullying — By Cory J. Sanders
Cody J. Sanders is a Baptist minister and Ph.D. student in Pastoral Theology and Counseling at Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, TX.
http://www.religiondispatches.org/contributors/codysanders/
Raised my eyebrow, too, Jayhuck. He added that paragraphy after he and I had discussed and agreed on the first paragraph. He wanted to add the last paragraph because he thought I wanted him to speak out in favor or anti–bullying programs and Hate Crime Laws — and he is very strongly opposed to both, believing they single out LGBT people for “special treatment” and that such measure are really just tools to “crush Christian evangelism.”.
Regarding that Policy Statement, please note: Alan Chambers opposes all anti-bullying programs and all Hate Crime Laws since he believes theye are “tools to crush Christian Evangelism”. Exodus opposes the “Day Of Silence” to raise awareness of the problem of LGBT teen bullying and suicide because LGBT groups sponsor the event and Exodus is scared to death of being seen as “pro-gay”.
Furthermore, Alan Chambers strongly resisted posting ANY official anti-bullying statement for MONTHS before adopting the one posted here. He finally got so tired of me bugging him to do it that he ran it by me first before he posted it. Dont get me wrong, I don’t believe Exodus is in favor of bullying or suicide — but why should they have to be pressured by anyone to take an official stand against it?
Debbie,
Yes, but FOTF sure doesn’t want them to
Debbie,
I have to say I truly was impressed by the Exodus anti-bullying article you linked to – It was the best thing to come from them in some time –
Although – and I don’t think this needs to diminish the article that much, but I’m not quite sure what they meant when they wrote:
This was the only piece in the article that made me raise an eyebrow.
WHO CARES ABOUT ALAN CHAMBERS!!!!! He’s not the only voice of us!
Here you go:
http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2010/10/01/step-up-speak-out-against-bullying-the-tragic-case-of-tyler-clementi/
With a policy statement.
Yes, Michael. And anybody from any background can give that speech. I still have a hard time believing teachers can’t or won’t do that on any given day.
Michael,
AAAAAAAAmen! 🙂
I really think we can and should keep religious positions (pro or con) on homosexuality OUT of anti-bullying programs — except to say it is wrong to bully a person for any reason, including their percieved orientation or rtheir eligious beliefs.
But I think its fair to say that “people respond to (gay and straight) feelings in different ways.” But that should not be the focus of the programs. The focus should be on how to stop bullies and help kids who are targets of it, not to provide religious instruction on any particular “resolution” to the issue.
I think you tell kids the facts — that people are different, that people walk many different paths in life — and that all people, including gays or those perceived to be gay, are worthy of basic respect and kindness. Bullying will not be tolerated. Period. Perpetrators and those who aid them will be dealt with fairly and firmly.
Whether or not I shared my own faith journey would depend on many things — who was asking me to share, the age(s) of the students, the context of the discussion, the permission of parents, etc. Even if asked, I really don’t think I would go into great detail about it –except to say that I was at peace with my decision.
There is a lot of confusion about what we can and can’t talk about in the schools. I think we do kids a disservice by acting as if our faith is something we are ashamed of or afraid to talk about. I believe we could talk about morality, could we not? We could talk about the way we were brought up and the impact that had on us, for better or worse. If bullying is wrong, then it is morally wrong. Kids have a conscience.
Raised my eyebrow, too, Jayhuck. He added that paragraphy after he and I had discussed and agreed on the first paragraph. He wanted to add the last paragraph because he thought I wanted him to speak out in favor or anti–bullying programs and Hate Crime Laws — and he is very strongly opposed to both, believing they single out LGBT people for “special treatment” and that such measure are really just tools to “crush Christian evangelism.”.
But it’s a curious dilemma. In the public schools, you’re not supposed to talk about religion…per se. So I think you could get away with suggesting ‘talk to your parents or, if you attend a church, maybe talk to a pastor or a youth leader’ but you’d likely hit a landmine if you spoke too directly about your faith.
Eddy and Michael raise a question worth considering. Isn’t it right for these kids to know that people resolve their gay feeling in different ways? After, all they are going to be dealing with this the rest of their lives in some fashion or another. If I were to address a group of students or parents or anyone about bullying, I could honestly say I have never been bullied as a student. But I couldn’t say I hadn’t faced feelings of shame or guilt or confusion. I couldn’t say I haven’t faced harassment as an adult. I would have to talk about how I’ve handled that in my life.
Debbie,
I have to say I truly was impressed by the Exodus anti-bullying article you linked to – It was the best thing to come from them in some time –
Although – and I don’t think this needs to diminish the article that much, but I’m not quite sure what they meant when they wrote:
This was the only piece in the article that made me raise an eyebrow.
Yes, Michael. And anybody from any background can give that speech. I still have a hard time believing teachers can’t or won’t do that on any given day.
Totally inappropriate in my opinion, David.
And Eddy, no, I probably would not. I would be there to talk about how to respond to bullying, not to share my personal faith journey.
Neil Patrick Harris…perfect!
Best fight scene ever…watch and enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XymelxbVpA
@ Debbie,
Wise teacher.
But it’s a curious dilemma. In the public schools, you’re not supposed to talk about religion…per se. So I think you could get away with suggesting ‘talk to your parents or, if you attend a church, maybe talk to a pastor or a youth leader’ but you’d likely hit a landmine if you spoke too directly about your faith.
I just read a wonderful commentary by Paul Greenberg (one of my Jewish pals) called “Ideology vs. Principle.” It reminded me that if we all decided to put our ideology on a shelf and dust off our principles, we might get through this mess and learn to appreciate and love each other in the process.
Michael–
If you were part of an anti-bullying program in a public school, would you share how you reconciled your homosexuality with your Christian faith?
I hope so, but I worry that many are not. Many of these kids are probably afraid of rejection or hurting their parents by disclosing their sexual orientation. I know I was! As a kid, I would have rather died that break their hearts. I knew my parents loved me, but it would have killed my Dad to know he had a “homo” son. He seemed very relieved when I got married. He died before I had a chance to “come out” to him.
When I told my Mom, she said it was “worse than my Dad dying of leukemia “and that she “wanted to drive her car off a cliff”. She felt suddenly shoved into her own “closet” because she believed she had done something terribly wrong. She believed the story that gay kids must have bad parents. It took her years to get over that and finally be proud of me as a gay man.
But all of this was as an adult. I can only imagine what it might be like for some of these kids in their homes. And being told by some folks that they must not ever act on their orientation for fear of eternal torture cannot make things any better. For for me, it got better. I changed my views about Christianity without abandoning my faith. I am now convinced that I am OK with God as an openly gay man.
It got better. I found other kids “like me” in High School. I began to meet well-adjusted gay people in college. IMost importantly, I met gay Christians who encouraged me not to abandon my Christian faith. It got worse. It got better. But I would not have it any other way. I pray that LGBT kids will find true allies who care more about them as kids than about any “agenda” they may have. That’s what is needed here and now.
Neil Patrick Harris Encourages Gay Youth To ‘Be Proud’
‘When you get older, you find that people are actually drawn to individuals with different points of view,’ openly gay actor says in video.<
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1649200/20101001/story.jhtml
Mary# ~ Oct 1, 2010 at 12:12 pm
“Wha ti s the real story going on in their homes. We assume their parents are supportive. Do we really know the family circumstances of these children? Are they finding support in their homes?”
In this case, it appears the parents were supportive and trying to protect their child (according to the parents they complained about the bullying to the school). Which is what makes even more tragic. A child goes to his parents for help and they were unable to protect him.
Although, in the case of glbt kids then there is the question of whether they can go to their parents for help.
It would be wonderful if we can get some conservative Christian churches in town to join the effort. It may be easier to organize those churches that have already expressed an interest and then pray that the others may come on board. I think it would be much more powerful if it were cross-denominational, “liberal” and “conservative.” I sincerely hope that is what it will become.
This is worth repeating.
Schools Chief: Bullying Must Stop
http://advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/01/Schools_Chief_Bullying_Must_Stop/
Michael,
I really commend you. And I think Eddy’s idea of having churches teach in Sunday School about being the protector of the oppressed is a great idea.
Another idea might be having supportive pastors available as a resource to bullied kids. Having men and women of God show love can do two things: give hope and support to someone feeling alone and perhaps save their life, and also open a door for them to get to know God.
(I guess I wasn’t done)
U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan Releases Statement on Recent LGBT Youth Tragedies
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=28877
That is what I am doing. I am working locally with the UCC and through them, with churches and community service organizaztions in the Riverside area who are already doing work in this area.
I think it is probably futile to try to motivate churches that are strongly opposed to mentionting LGBT kids as frequent targets, since they may fear that they would appear to be “pro-gay”>
An important message from Ellen Degeneres on LGBT teen suicide — and HOPE.
Please watch it and share it with others..
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=592846987806&ref=mf
OK, OK. I’ll withdraw the GLSEN comment. It seemed germane in a discussion that was linking sexuality and depression. Kind of like an elephant in the living room. I, too, want to move forward and seek common ground, however. I’ll take my lumps like a grown-up.
@ David Roberts,
I think you twisted Debbie’s comment into something it is not. Just like a woman who is raped, we provide classes for growing her confidence, self protection etc… so that she does not live with a victim mentality for the rest of her life. It is the same for children who are bullied. When I was gay we had support groups to help with our self esteem and to find support systems for being gay. It helped us stay away from the vivtim mentality by providing ourselves with useful tools to stand proud.
Arrggghhh!
At a point in the conversation where we were trying to move beyond blame and focus more on action, I don’t think we needed the blast against GLSEN.
Eddy,
Bullying fits here very nicely.
What I am trying to say is the issue of teen suicide has many categories. Lets attack all the the problems in a scientifically sound way…to include forceful protection of gender atypical children for the reasons I cited above.
Eddy,
I should have used the word “or.”
See you next time Timothy.
I think I have nothing more to contribute here.
Some of you may remember a study headed by Dr. Elizabeth Saewyc up in BC, Canada a few years ago. It was based on long-range student surveys to assess adolescent suicide risk. It included kids in BC, the Pacific Northwest and Midwest. The study found that, since 1992, those kids identifying as bisexual, especially girls, had marked increases in suicidal thoughts. Also, Warren wrote an article a while back about depression and teen sexual experimentation, referring to depression as “the new sexually transmitted disease.”
Here’s the reference to the Saewyc study, FYI:
Elizabeth Saewyc, Ph.D., RN, PHN, Carol L. Skay, Ph.D., Patricia Hynds, Sandra Pettingell, Ph.D., Linda H. Bearinger, Ph.D., MS, RN, Michael D. Resnick, Ph.D., and Elizabeth Reis, MS, “Suicide Ideation and Attempts in North American School-Based Surveys: Are Bisexual Youth At Increasing Risk?” Journal of Adolescent Health, 2008 February; 3(2): 25–36
Of course, not all depressed gay-identified kids are experimenting with sex, but I do find it interesting that GLSEN would serve to possibly promote sexual experimentation through some of its literature. “Tackling Gay Issues in School,” a GLSEN teacher’s manual, has a lesson called “Bisexual Basics” in it. It includes this tidbit: “Each of us should have the freedom to explore our sexual orientation and find our own unique expression of lesbian, bisexual, gay, straight, or any combination of these.” Sorry, but that crosses the line of what is acceptable to my thinking.
OOPs
I’m not talking about after the feact evidence where the parents parade in front of cameras talking about their child being bullied. But what is happening in the home prior to that?
I am wondering, we read about these children who felt they had no escape. Wha ti s the real story going on in their homes. We assume their parents are supportive. Do we really know the family circumstances of these children? Are they finding support in their homes?
I’m not talking about after the fact ev
When it comes to suicides related to bullying this reason stands out:
but I’m hunching that there’s often a bit of cross-over or mixing of reasons.
This statement from the previous post troubled me a bit:
That word ‘and’ suggests that they have all three and from the little I know of these recent victims, substance abuse hasn’t even been suggested. Depression and anxiety, though, would be normal responses to repeated bullying.
Reposting this from a related thread about adolescent suicide and the correlation with mental illness…gender-atypical children may be multiple minorities and doubley fragile: civilized behavior requires that we understand them and protect them aggressively:
To Follow up on:
So part of the issue is creating a psychological profile for the bullier (types, perhaps) so as to identify the behavior sooner and intervene more effectively, I think.
It seems to be clear from the Rutgers incident that the fragility and impulsivity of the victim needs to be addressed as well (suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem). I have noted elsewhere that suicidal adolescents have significant depressive, anxious and substance abuse problems.
So a second part of a program should include identifying victims, educating school counselors to provide support services and activating parental support.
I think a third part is broader, and focused at the school community, and that is a strong, affirmative message of safety and respect for all; and encouraging peers to openly confront bullying behavior. This can be facilitated by Christians who openly condemn bullying of any type, but those int he GLBT community should not wait for Christians to act like Christians.
David R. – I did not state I found some weakness is causing kids to be bullied. Surely, the bullies perceive them to be weak. It is both the bully and the bullies who need our help, and yes, that may mean dealing with whatever is, as David B. pointed out earlier, at the root of both the bully and the victim mentality. Both kinds of kids are troubled in their own way.
Anti-bullying programs are supposed to give all the players the proper tools with which to change this environment, right? Do you have a problem with that? What are you objecting to? For Pete’s sake, I am not saying (have I not made that clear?) that those who are bystanders ought not come to the aid of an oppressed or bullied kid. But we are surely shortsighted if we don’t also realize he needs to be able to build his own defenses, to learn that his self-worth does not come from the opinions of others. It is inherent because he has been created by God. You do get that, don’t you?
There is a distinct difference between repeatedly rescuing — enabling — and providing genuine help that builds up and encourages a person. The latter is what we all should be wanting to see.
Why not just civilly disagree with me rather than trying to knock me off my Christian pedestal?
To Follow up on:
So part of the issue is creating a psychological profile for the bullier (types, perhaps) so as to identify the behavior sooner and intervene more effectively, I think.
It seems to be clear from the Rutgers incident that the fragility and impulsivity of the victim needs to be addressed as well (suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem). I have noted elsewhere that suicidal adolescents have significant depressive, anxious and substance abuse problems.
So a second part of a program should include identifying victims, educating school counselors to provide support services and activating parental support.
I think a third part is broader, and focused at the school community, and that is a strong, affirmative message of safety and respect for all; and encouraging peers to openly confront bullying behavior. This can be facilitated by Christians who openly condemn bullying of any type, but those int he GLBT community should not wait for Christians to act like Christians.
Jayhuck,
🙂 — If he were with a woman, they wouldn’t have posted the video, because that would have promoted him as a guy who is successful. I wonder what is it that makes folks admire the guy who gets many girls, but not be happy for and with the guy who gets other guys… If they were not troubled by it then they would have cheered for him too.
Instead, they caught him on camera and enjoyed having him caught. That explains the ‘Yay.’
Yes, Eddy, they posted the video because they knew others would have appreciated “the joke”. If no one would be interested in this type of videos, they would not be so interested either to show their roommate with another guy. It seems there is something in the social environment that makes this kind of trolling appealing to them and others. In part, I think this comes from the status of homosexuality as a minority.
Sorry Evan – I meant to tell you that I agreed with that quote of yours I posted above 🙂
Evan,
Eddy,
I found this to be very insightful. As much as I feel these two people didn’t intentionally set out to hurt the guy, you may very well be right!
Evan:
While there are ways that this doesn’t rise to the level of bullying, it doesn’t fall totally outside the realm of homophobia. They may have liked him as a person but their reponse to his homosexuality overshadowed that liking. Somehow, they lost sight of the person and saw ‘it’. As you said, they likely wouldn’t have posted it if it were hetero.
Personally, I’m reasonably sure that both of them feel devastated BUT I still want them to receive some legal consequence for their actions. A clear and strong message needs to be sent and I doubt that a more clear example will present itself. They violated the roommate first by videotaping; they violated again by posting. It needs to be addressed with legal consequences. (And, although that may sound harsh, it may actually be the only way that either of them will be able to move on with their lives. Their insensitivity and stupidity cost a life…and they know that…it’s quite likely that if the law doesn’t punish them, they’ll punish themselves.)
I realize that more than a few comments have been posted since Timothy offfered an apology to me but I was out for the evening. (It seems I suffer from a serious karaoke addiction.)
Anyway, Timothy, while I appreciate your apology, I feel it is misdirected. The offense that I was responding to was not that I identify with ‘conservative Christians’ and thus felt that you were bashing me along with them but rather that, while I now feel somewhat removed from the ‘conservative Christian’ label, I find your almost incessant bashing of them to be both off base and counter to productive conversation. Yes, we all get it. You feel that conservative Christians and especially hypocrites are contributors to many of our societal ills. What we don’t get is why, when as you’ve pointed out every dozen posts or so, that ‘kids are dying’ …why do you keep running down that rabbit trail?
What does that do towards the goal of stopping ‘kids from dying’? Those of us who lean towards conservative are trying to converse, trying to understand and trying to be part of a solution…but it seems we can’t go for more than a few hours (if that) before we’re caught once again in the muck of the bashing. Your constant bashing suggests 1) that you elevate that concern above the things that we were trying to talk about. (You pronounced us as being on a pointless detour ‘while kids were dying’ and yet you can go and on “while kids are still dying” in pursuing your point about how conservatives are a significant part of the blame.) 2) that somehow you think that we have both the responsibility and the capability to fix the problem of ‘conservative Christian’ attitudes that don’t rise to the occasion.
You have been almost incessant in judging, guilting and in placing blame. Even when several of us have tried to demonstrate that this blame-game goes nowhere–and that it’s one that has gone nowhere in several related conversations, you remain steadfast in pursuing it.
David bolded his primary statement, repeated it, then I repeated it and he rephrased it at least twice. What was your response? Instead of even acknowledging his central point, both you and Jayhuck choose to go after a side point, that you both took out of context, only to further the misunderstandings. (So i’m not accused of going abstract: you both took his final statement out of context. His primary point was:
Everythng that followed went to that point. He finished with:
Both you and Jayhuck responded to that statement as if it was not tangent to ‘we are wasting a lot of time on a target that will not remedy the problem.’ He wasn’t excusing. He was dramatizing his point. We can bash conservative Christians til the cows come home but how does that impact those criminals who took Matthew’s life. Even if we can make some connection, how does placing the blame work towards actually stopping further bullying?
The offense I took is one that is common here. You looked for and then majored on a peripheral comment while completely ignoring the major substance of what he was saying. I realize that we are all guilty of that at times. But David made his statement (including the rephrasing) at least 3 or 4 times…and I repeated it at least once.And it remains like it had never been spoken. It’s no longer a conversation when you simply choose to ignore what a person has said.
You seem to be wanting us to step up and to stand with you but your total disrespect and disregard for us prohibits that. No mutual trust or respect exists. Yes, we have a responsibility for that too but you seem to think that you have none. My personal feeling is that you’ve gone way overboard with personal judgements. You seem to be out of touch with the possibility that perhaps your understanding is incomplete and so you judge, quite publicly. I find it unseemly and counter productive.
I’ve reread this and it comes out sounding more harsh than I intended. I apologize for that. But it’s late and I’m human and I don’t have the focus or energy at this point to go back and rework it to soften it somehow..The only thing I can suggest is that you picture a human with opinions sitting at a keyboard responding. I’m not feeling godlike…I’m not trying to pronounce judgement…I’m not trying to score any points…I’m simply trying to respond to what’s been said and to give voice to the frustrations I’ve been feeling.
Jayhuck,
Apparently, the students from Rutgers were not homphobic. They seemed to appreciate their roommate. Even so, they did what they did. One of them wrote on facebook:
“Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly’s room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay.”
That sounds like real-life trolling. It doesnt’ seem like [cyber]bullying. You are right, they have made an error of judgement. But those who say that if he were with a woman he wouldn’t have been treated this way, I think they have a point too. Having a minority status and being trolled and thus outed seemed to have pushed Tyler Clementi to a desperate place.
What on earth are you talking about, Debbie? This sounds like a government anti-poverty program. What “weakness” in these kids do you believe is responsible for their being bullied to death? And what exactly do their eyes need to be opened about in order to live their lives, go to school and study like anyone else? A person who is accustomed to always being rescued will not learn how to stand on his own two feet??? Are you serious? What does that have to do with one kid sticking up for another who is being bullied?
If you want to open someone’s eyes, maybe start with the one who is doing the bullying, rather than placing the blame on the one receiving it. I have to agree with Timothy here, your idea of what it is to live as a believer is hard to contemplate.
Jayhuck,
🙂 — If he were with a woman, they wouldn’t have posted the video, because that would have promoted him as a guy who is successful. I wonder what is it that makes folks admire the guy who gets many girls, but not be happy for and with the guy who gets other guys… If they were not troubled by it then they would have cheered for him too.
Instead, they caught him on camera and enjoyed having him caught. That explains the ‘Yay.’
Sorry Evan – I meant to tell you that I agreed with that quote of yours I posted above 🙂
Clarify please.
I realize that more than a few comments have been posted since Timothy offfered an apology to me but I was out for the evening. (It seems I suffer from a serious karaoke addiction.)
Anyway, Timothy, while I appreciate your apology, I feel it is misdirected. The offense that I was responding to was not that I identify with ‘conservative Christians’ and thus felt that you were bashing me along with them but rather that, while I now feel somewhat removed from the ‘conservative Christian’ label, I find your almost incessant bashing of them to be both off base and counter to productive conversation. Yes, we all get it. You feel that conservative Christians and especially hypocrites are contributors to many of our societal ills. What we don’t get is why, when as you’ve pointed out every dozen posts or so, that ‘kids are dying’ …why do you keep running down that rabbit trail?
What does that do towards the goal of stopping ‘kids from dying’? Those of us who lean towards conservative are trying to converse, trying to understand and trying to be part of a solution…but it seems we can’t go for more than a few hours (if that) before we’re caught once again in the muck of the bashing. Your constant bashing suggests 1) that you elevate that concern above the things that we were trying to talk about. (You pronounced us as being on a pointless detour ‘while kids were dying’ and yet you can go and on “while kids are still dying” in pursuing your point about how conservatives are a significant part of the blame.) 2) that somehow you think that we have both the responsibility and the capability to fix the problem of ‘conservative Christian’ attitudes that don’t rise to the occasion.
You have been almost incessant in judging, guilting and in placing blame. Even when several of us have tried to demonstrate that this blame-game goes nowhere–and that it’s one that has gone nowhere in several related conversations, you remain steadfast in pursuing it.
David bolded his primary statement, repeated it, then I repeated it and he rephrased it at least twice. What was your response? Instead of even acknowledging his central point, both you and Jayhuck choose to go after a side point, that you both took out of context, only to further the misunderstandings. (So i’m not accused of going abstract: you both took his final statement out of context. His primary point was:
Everythng that followed went to that point. He finished with:
Both you and Jayhuck responded to that statement as if it was not tangent to ‘we are wasting a lot of time on a target that will not remedy the problem.’ He wasn’t excusing. He was dramatizing his point. We can bash conservative Christians til the cows come home but how does that impact those criminals who took Matthew’s life. Even if we can make some connection, how does placing the blame work towards actually stopping further bullying?
The offense I took is one that is common here. You looked for and then majored on a peripheral comment while completely ignoring the major substance of what he was saying. I realize that we are all guilty of that at times. But David made his statement (including the rephrasing) at least 3 or 4 times…and I repeated it at least once.And it remains like it had never been spoken. It’s no longer a conversation when you simply choose to ignore what a person has said.
You seem to be wanting us to step up and to stand with you but your total disrespect and disregard for us prohibits that. No mutual trust or respect exists. Yes, we have a responsibility for that too but you seem to think that you have none. My personal feeling is that you’ve gone way overboard with personal judgements. You seem to be out of touch with the possibility that perhaps your understanding is incomplete and so you judge, quite publicly. I find it unseemly and counter productive.
I’ve reread this and it comes out sounding more harsh than I intended. I apologize for that. But it’s late and I’m human and I don’t have the focus or energy at this point to go back and rework it to soften it somehow..The only thing I can suggest is that you picture a human with opinions sitting at a keyboard responding. I’m not feeling godlike…I’m not trying to pronounce judgement…I’m not trying to score any points…I’m simply trying to respond to what’s been said and to give voice to the frustrations I’ve been feeling.
Sorry David,
I have no abilities as psychoanalyzing bullies. I’ll leave that to you.
I’m going to stick with my contention that Christians should be (and can be) protectors of the oppressed. That takes no special skills and I believe we can do it.
David,
I read about this yesterday. It is such a tragedy for all involved. I get the feeling that the people who made the tape were not necessarily homophobic or anti-gay, just that they made a serious error in judgment. Its definitely an invasion of privacy, but would this necessarily be filed under cyberbullying? I don’t know, I’m just asking.
David,
I can get behind you on this David, the problem is that groups like FOTF cannot! They seem to view talking to kids about respecting gay people as part of the culture war.
I agree with you though!
We should post this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100930/ap_on_re_us/us_student_taped_sex
Timothy,
If you can respond less to fragments and more to the whole post, we might understand each other better.
Eddy,
I apologize if I offended you. If my words were hurtful, I take them back.
Let’s focus on what we agree on: that it would be of value to the world if Christendom took on the role of protector of the oppressed.
Debbie,
You and I have VERY different understandings of Scripture and what Jesus came to say. When we say “love” we don’t mean the same thing. When we say “heart” we don’t mean the same thing. When we say “honor” we don’t mean the same thing.
Timothy,
With all due respect, the detour started here in your comment to Michael:
So it renders this statement to me as a tad confusing.
You ARE criticizing religious conservatives–more specifically ‘conservative Christianity’ (stop claiming no insult when one is clearly there for all to see)
I think that at this time we should go with protecting the oppressed. That is a very clear call of Christ.
Maybe sometime later when there are fewer kids killing themselves we can worry about opening the eyes of the oppressed. Perhaps after we break the epidemic of torture we can tell them to stand on their own two feet.
Fair enough?
And Timothy, morality (knowing right from wrong) is not found in one part of the Bible. It’s not Levitical (eye for an eye) vs. Jesus’ Golden Rule. It springs from a heart that knows and loves the Triune God. Those who love God will honor Him and will love mankind, His greatest creation.
David,
Really? That’s your response to the idea that the people who follow Christ should protect the oppressed?
I have absolutely no idea how to respond to that.
Yes, Timothy. That is certainly a big part of what we should do. But we also have the duty to help open the eyes of the oppressed so they can better help themselves, and to give them tools for doing so. A person who is accustomed to always being rescued will not learn how to stand on his own two feet. How do we help these kids to become stronger?
David:
The subject:
My solution:
Any questions?
Eddy
I’m not criticizing religious conservatives (stop looking for insult when none is present). I’m criticizing the Christian Church. All of the body of Christ should instinctively respond by protecting and championing the oppressed.
Yes, exactly. Perhaps it could springboard off of the Golden Rule project.
I do think that due to the nature of the oppressed in this example that mainline churches will be more receptive to an effort to become protectors at first. But I hope that all Christians will eventually see their role as protector.
Or I may be wrong. Perhaps the Southern Baptists will lead the way.
To repeat for emphasis:
If crimes against gender atypical children are being predominantly performed by non-religious persons, merely to enjoy the feeling of power and control over someone weak, vulnerable and marginalized, why draw in religious targets?
It seems like a misuse of energy and resources
Jayhuck,
Accusations? I have no doubt about Timothy’s motivations; I am disappointed that he often calls into question the motives of others.
I am concerned, seriously concerned, that focusing on the religious angle distracts from the core risks that vulnerable children face; especially when the evidence seems to point in a different direction.
Focusing the psychological make up of bullies and ways to intervene forcibly to protect seems much more likely to succeed than getting entangled in the culture war…
But I don’t hear much about that.
David–
Just because they can’t hear you doesn’t mean you aren’t talking loud and clear.
Too bad the blog doesn’t come with super-bold print. It appears that Jayhuck missed this:
My issue with our threads and their focus on religion is that it is possible we are wasting a lot of time on a target that will not remedy the problem.
and instead chose to focus on a subpoint as your major theme and pompously pronounced your notion that ‘WE ARE WASTING A LOT OF TIME ON A TARGET THAT WILL NOT REMEDY THE PROBLEM’ as ‘out of bounds’.
David,
OK – I’m weighing in because I think your accusations against Timothy, one of the loudest and most vocal supporters of anti-bullying programs on this entire blog – outside Warren – is out of bounds
My answer to your quote above is, so what? You dont have to be a minister or a Dominion leader to be a Christian that bullies – and you most certainly don’t have to be a conservative Christian to be effected by the intolerant message spread by some of its proponents
Timothy
You can change the subject if you wish, but you have apparently forgotten that this point was made some time ago and their was a consensus of agreement.
My issue with our threads and their focus on religion is that it is possible we are wasting a lot of time on a target that will not remedy the problem.
If you are really concerned with kids (to use one of your implied accusations you make of others at this site) wouldn’t you want to know the training and motivations of the bullys to head off such tormenting at the root?
If crimes against gender atypical children are being predominantly performed by non-religious persons, merely to enjoy the feeling of power and control over someone weak, vulnerable and marginalized, why draw in religious targets?
It seems like a misuse of energy and resources.
If safety is the issue for all (GLBT and Conservative Christians)…focus on facts, probable immediate causes. And yes…
Matthew Sheppard was not brutalized the the local baptist minister, under orders from leaders in the Dominion movement. He was brutalized by criminals who laid in wait.
Tim,
You are absolutely right too! I apologize for my part in diverting attention from the real issue which is protecting these kids.
Thank you for the link to the Trevor Project btw
Eddy,
Yes – you are right – I’m having this same discussion on two threads and it is pointless to point fingers. There are obviously many conservative Christians, yourself and Warren included, who do care about protecting children without turning this into a religion/political issue.
Evan,
You wouldn’t have to be a conservative Christian though to have it influence you, right?
The only way to be able to answer this would be to know if, how and to what extent this happens in other cultures.
When you say culture is a form of nature you may be right to some extent – I’m definitely not saying you’re not, but its clear that cultures at different times and places do not react the same way to various issues/events, yet nature does not seem to react in the same way and seems to remain more constant – assuming when we use the words culture and nature we are talking about the same thing
@Jayhuck
On this issue of nature and culture…. I think culture is a form of nature and a continuation of it. I don’t think someone could completely separate one from another.
Culture reflects many times what people are unable to achieve but strive for. So when people talk about equal rights, it’s because they are frustrated with unequality. And frankly, in nature there hardly is any. As someone who has participated in group bullying I can tell that it’s not about being broken or acting on beliefs. Whoever says that is projecting their own perception on others’ motives. Beliefs are being used. Bullies bully because they think it’s exciting to do it. Some are specialised in bullying, while others do it only occasionally.
The two students from Rutgers Uni who harassed the guy who jumped off the bridge last week weren’t exactly the Christian conservative types, were they? It’d be interesting to know if they ever attended some anti-bullying program or some other forms of tolerance building program. If they did, then it had no effect on them and it means that their motivation to harass comes from something deeper than what they have been taught.
Uh, that was “planted.” I’m sure some of my thoughts need to be planed, too, though. 🙂
You have planed a thought in my head, Eddy. Thinking. …
David,
Really? That’s your response to the idea that the people who follow Christ should protect the oppressed?
I have absolutely no idea how to respond to that.
Okay, I’ll buy into the criticisms of religious conservatives but I’m not sure what end it serves. Warren’s closing words from the topic post were “Just action.”…and a number of the posts went to that. It even appeared that some action was inspired. I communicated with a few people myself (one has Hollywood connections) trying to flesh out some ideas for action.
But then we detoured to what those religious conservatives ought to be doing or should have done. And there’s been no more talk or ideas for action. Is the insinuation that action can’t happen until they change their ways? Is it that they couldn’t be challenged themselves by strong and thoughtful anti-bullying programs? Is it a challenge to the religious conservatives who are a part of the conversation that ‘our job’ is to go out and change the hearts and minds of all the other religious conservatives before we can proceed?
There IS a time and a season for blame but there’s also a time and a season for moving on. The issue is timely…the issue is urgent.
It just occurred to me that perhaps an anti-bullying program ought to be developed that is geared to church sunday schools. Skip FOTF. Draw on some other conservative religious resource that is well respected. Perhaps Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship or Campus Crusade for Christ. I realize that they are geared primarily to college students but believe that they would embrace the idea of impacting local congregations. (It might even be an avenue of some direct action…I could envision those of us commonly labeled as ‘conservative’…me, Debbie, Warren, David and others…forming a committee to help shape such a program. And for my part, I’d insist that they do address the issue of moral judgement and how it impacts the bullying of gays…how it can be used by some to justify bullying and how it can be used by others to justify not stepping in to protect and defend the bullying victim. )
Yes, Timothy. That is certainly a big part of what we should do. But we also have the duty to help open the eyes of the oppressed so they can better help themselves, and to give them tools for doing so. A person who is accustomed to always being rescued will not learn how to stand on his own two feet. How do we help these kids to become stronger?
To repeat for emphasis:
If crimes against gender atypical children are being predominantly performed by non-religious persons, merely to enjoy the feeling of power and control over someone weak, vulnerable and marginalized, why draw in religious targets?
It seems like a misuse of energy and resources
Absolutely.
I don’t rule out cultural influences. I think it’s both.
David,
I’m troubled by the need to distinguish whether his exact persecutors were religious. The mindset behind that concern seems to be that as long as the kids directly involved with tormenting him were not active church goers then therefore Christians have no involvement.
Let me counter with another notion: Christian kids should have been his protectors. And as long as no one was protecting him or coming to his defense, then we have failed. That is our role, our assigned duty.
I think that this idea is at the very heart of Christ’s parable of the good Samaritan. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sadly, many who share our faith take a courtroom defense attitude when it comes to tragedy: “you can’t blame it on me, I didn’t do it. What, do you expect me to be my brother’s keeper?”
Debbie,
I’m not so sure about this – is it human-nature or culture – if its the latter, then its most definitely influenced by religion. There are too many people who don’t torment gay people to make me believe that its necessarily just an issue of human nature. By that, I don’t mean to suggest that human nature doesn’t play a part, but you cannot rule out culture just yet either
There are other non-religious voices sharing the blame for anti-gay sentiment. Isn’t there a human-nature instinctiveness that motivates a lot of the torment bullies inflict on GLBT kids? Boys, especially, have always been prone to put down boys they deem as sissy or weak. There is not much of a religious bias in that, I think. Ken rightly points out that religion gets much of the blame because, unfortunately, too many zealots have spoken out too loudly and without compassion and understanding. They have bully pulpits.
David Blakeslee# ~ Sep 30, 2010 at 12:09 am
“if religious motivation for bullying gays and lesbians is not predominant, why are we discussing it? ”
Because religion has been a large motivation behind anti-gay sentiments. And while many (most?) religious people have recognized that gays are not evil spawns of satan sent to corrupt the earth, there are still some prominent religious figures sending out very loud anti-gay messages. And until more rational religious voices drown them out, religion is going to get blamed for a lot of the anti-gay sentiments that contributed to these sorts of tragedies.
There are other non-religious voices sharing the blame for anti-gay sentiment. Isn’t there a human-nature instinctiveness that motivates a lot of the torment bullies inflict on GLBT kids? Boys, especially, have always been prone to put down boys they deem as sissy or weak. There is not much of a religious bias in that, I think. Ken rightly points out that religion gets much of the blame because, unfortunately, too many zealots have spoken out too loudly and without compassion and understanding. They have bully pulpits.
David Blakeslee# ~ Sep 30, 2010 at 12:09 am
“if religious motivation for bullying gays and lesbians is not predominant, why are we discussing it? ”
Because religion has been a large motivation behind anti-gay sentiments. And while many (most?) religious people have recognized that gays are not evil spawns of satan sent to corrupt the earth, there are still some prominent religious figures sending out very loud anti-gay messages. And until more rational religious voices drown them out, religion is going to get blamed for a lot of the anti-gay sentiments that contributed to these sorts of tragedies.
How are we back down the road to religion…
Were his persecutors religious?
It seems fundamental that we discover the core ingredients in the bullying, and if religious motivation for bullying gays and lesbians is not predominant, why are we discussing it? And if it is…well then there is an f*ing war to wage within the church and outside the church.
Isn’t it about marginalization, vulnerability and isolation…doesn’t that make the gender-atypical child the perfect target in a peer pressure, insecure world where peers as less likely to step in and protect?
It is a pack of wolves and a weakened deer…isn’t it?
David Roberts said:
Agreed, well said.
I think I understand the warning about not debating which characteristic was most responsible for his bullying. That is fine here, however I think it important to address those specific issues in dealing with bullying on the front lines. A generic “no bullying for any reason” message does not seem to be effective. Kids need to be validated by the assurance that they — whatever characteristic was used as a target — are not deserving of such treatment, not just that bullying for anything is simply wrong. Those who have fits over the idea of mentioning sexual orientation in anything but a condemning manner will just need to get past that as lives are at stake.
As for the issues with attire, that could be eliminated with school uniforms, and probably a lot more strife with it. There are disadvantages to the fractured, local control of schools, as well as advantages. This problem requires action in unison.
Zoe–
Something missing in what you’ve said is that most people, and most conservative Christians, won’t even see the LOT video. It’s difficult to expect a response to something they haven’t even seen. Those that do happen to see it will likely follow the most sound advice I’ve heard yet…ignore it. Don’t even give it the time of day. To do so would give it more ‘hits’ and elevate it’s status.
And no, I’m not going to provide that one scintilla of evidence that you request. Warren stated from the beginning that he didn’t want us to focus on ‘just one reason’ and your request goes to ‘just one reason’. Beyond that reason, I’m not in touch or in tune with conservative Christians organizations and have never suggested that I’m in any way associated or connected with any…other than Exodus. In common debate, the burden of proof lies with the person who has made the claim. I didn’t make any claims…Timothy did. If you want proof from him to support his claims about conservative Christians, fine. If you don’t, that’s okay with me also. Personally, I want to see the bullying of all people come to an end and I feel that this conversational detour would be a diversion from that end. Timothy and I seem to disagree on how to best go about addressing bullying. . Does a pissing contest resolve that? A recent thread seems to prove that it doesn’t. If you can show me that the end result of your inquiries differs from that other conversation, perhaps I’ll engage you. In the meantime, I joined in this conversation desperately trying to avoid the pitfalls of the other. For a brief moment, we were actually talking some common ground, strategies and goals. Forgive me for wanting to discuss what we have in common rather than our disagreements.
Jayhuck–
I’d like to believe that too but I’ve come to see Timothy as eloquent and a fairly complete master of his words. In short, I think if he meant ‘organizations’, he would have said so. I believe the swipe was intended against all conservative Christians as a debate strategy. If he so chooses, Timothy can defend or expound on what he was really trying to say. As for me, I’m going to try to stay on focus with trying to add something constructive to this conversation. Both Debbie and Timothy have suggested that my idea has little merit’ Michael appears to believe that it may be a path worth pursuing. It’s not a big deal. These are conversations. If I toss something in and am shown that it is has little or no merit, if the reasoning behind the objection seems sound, my notions can and should fall by the wayside. For the record, Debbie’s objections didn’t persuade me to abandon pushing for media involvement. However, Timothy’s did. I’m currently re-evaluating my own belief in my suggestion.
Eddy,
I think – and hope – that Tim was just speaking about conservative Christian organizations and not necessarily individuals. I can’t know for certain, but its been clear on here that you and Warren, two conservative Christians, agree on most of the basics with many of the rest of us regarding bullying, especially of LGBT kids, and that makes me hopeful. I know that conservative Christian orgs don’t speak for all conservative Christians.
@Eddie – if one, just one, conservative christian group criticises, no matter how mildly, that LOT video, then you have a point. Just one, anywhere.
I’m not holding my breath.
Show me a single scintilla of evidence to contradict that, anywhere on the FotF or other conservative christian site, just one, and I’d be overjoyed.
How are we back down the road to religion…
Were his persecutors religious?
It seems fundamental that we discover the core ingredients in the bullying, and if religious motivation for bullying gays and lesbians is not predominant, why are we discussing it? And if it is…well then there is an f*ing war to wage within the church and outside the church.
Isn’t it about marginalization, vulnerability and isolation…doesn’t that make the gender-atypical child the perfect target in a peer pressure, insecure world where peers as less likely to step in and protect?
It is a pack of wolves and a weakened deer…isn’t it?
David Roberts said:
Agreed, well said.
David,
That’s why I would assume that the response of the ELCA (even those congregations that have a more conservative sexual ethic) would be to put the support for the kid on a higher level of Christian concern than worries about a homosexual agenda.
For me, this is really an issue which is ideal for Christians: protect the oppressed.
Regarding the ELCA…since I am a member. :).
Their recent marriage statement puts the emotional support for gays and lesbians (through marriage) on a higher level of Christian concern (since they are a targeted and marginalized minority) than compliance with Levitical law or Pauline prohibitions.
sigh….
Well, at least we did get in 46 posts before taking a broad swipe at conservative Christians…
Michael,
Forget conservative Christianity. They are not going to get on board with anything that does not include explicit condemnation of homosexuality. That has proven over and over to be a far higher priority.
But why not go for mainline Christianity. Approach the Lutherans (ELCA), the Methodists, the Episcopalians, the Quakers, the UCC, the Presbyterians, and those more along that line. Even those who have a more conservative approach to sexual responsibility are generally not so obsessed with fighting imaginary agendas that they can’t support children.
Perhaps there is a way to appeal to mainline Christians to be protectors of the oppressed. This is in line with the way that they view their mission to be the hands of Christ.
The movie idea has been tried a few times.
As Michael mentioned, in 1994 Trevor came out and addressed the topic. It inspired The Trevor Project, a 24/7 suicide hotline.
Last year Prayers for Bobby addressed the issue from a slightly different approach. Bobby Griffin’s suicide was mostly attributed (by his mother) to her own intolerance and rejection.
There have also been a number of made-for-TV “very special” programs that address bullying and/or suicide.
The problem with relying on a message movie is that it has to be entertaining or no one will watch it. And few message movies are very good.
Keeping this statement in mind:
I have some difficulty with this response:
Why must they be at the forefront of the fight against LGBT teen suicide and not just teen suicide? Why Exodus? As indicated previously on this blogsite, they’ve published a statement re bullying but aren’t noted for an actual focus there.
BTW — The kid who was teased and had his arm broken for wanting to be a cheerleader is one brave kid in this fight. I wish adults weren’t so scared of the issue.
http://advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/09/29/Bullied_Male_Cheerleader_on_GMA/
Forgot to mention Daniel Radcliffe (Harry Potter) and his support of the Trevor Project.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzFMBYVMSVg
Yes, I know that these celebs also support other LGBT causes including things like Marriage Equality and the end of DADT, but often, it seems that those are the sorts of people who are most vocal and most active in the fight against bullying and helping LGBT kids in crisis.
They cannot be the only ones. Who are some notable conservative Christian leaders, artists or organizations at the forefront of the fight against bullying and LGBT teen suicide? I wonder if Exodus might rethink its response to the problem?
As for a movie, “TREVOR” addressed this issue and won an Oscar. The TREVOR Hotline started in response to the great need.
“True Colors” has become somewhat of an anthem in this cause:
http://truecolorsfund.org/
The Give A Dman Campaign already has some of the celebs (Melissa, Elton, Cindi Lauper,etc.) you have mentioned. Perhaps they could organize it.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DStLOEI0HUU4&h=d10c7
Re a movie, a song, or both. I don’t believe it would be necessary to stipulate either mention or no mention. Get someone on board who has a heart for kids and sees the bullying crisis for what it is…and suggest that the time is ripe for addressing it in the world of popular entertainment and invite them to ‘do what they can’.
For a song, one way to ensure that it would have more ‘specific to gay’ impact would be to enlist the talents of an openly gay performer. I envision the talents of say Melissa Etheridge, Janis Ian or Elton John but they’d also face the challenge of winning the ears of the young.
The more I think of it, I really think Eddy is onto something with the song/national campaign idea. Since it would not be an official program in the schools, you could mention sexual orientation without a problem. And more awareness and support of organizations like these:
The Trevor Project — The Trevor Project is a nonprofit endeavor established to promote acceptance of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning (LGBTQ) youth, and to aid in suicide prevention among that group. 24 hour crisis counseling at 1-866-4U-TREVOR
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/about-trevor/organization
The Matthew Shepherd Foundation: “To educate and enlighten others on the importance of diversity, understanding, compassion, acceptance and respect. Everyone must participate in developing solutions to problems that are rooted in ignorance and hatred.”
http://www.matthewshepard.org/our-story
The “Give a Damn” Campaign. Many celebrities are already part of this effort.
http://www.wegiveadamn.org/issues/youth-suicide/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-E7fykpeGc
I support all three of these organizations. Do you know of other organizations we might add?
I like Eddy’s idea. Should they mention percieved sexual orienation in the song? I also like Debbie’s idea of school counselors working with the bullies, but think their first priority should be working with the victims. And I agreee with Lynn David about police/school laisons. More teacher training. Clear guidelines on mandated reporting — and why isn’t teasing illegal? How about restraining orders?
I hear ya…HOWEVER…I’m not willing to give up on the entire entertainment industry based on those who have hijacked it for other means. AND, I’m not suggesting this as THE answer…only one solution that could have mass appeal and perhaps some genuine impact.
Eddy, I appreciate the sentiment in what you are suggesting. I can’t help, however, thinking of how dismally ineffective our decades-long campaign in the war on drugs has been. And lest we forget, the media and entertainment industry are really part of the problem. Gangsta Rap and MTV? What hypocrisy to think of those folks touting an anti-bullying message. I don’t see it working.
BTW — The kid who was teased and had his arm broken for wanting to be a cheerleader is one brave kid in this fight. I wish adults weren’t so scared of the issue.
http://advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/09/29/Bullied_Male_Cheerleader_on_GMA/
I have a bit of a reputation for railing against ‘the media’ but I’m now wondering if there would be a way to encourage a ‘popular’ message against bullying. As an oldster, I think of encouraging Neil Diamond, Elton John, or Billy Joel into crafting a song that would have popular appeal…something with a strong message. A movie would be another option…not a heavy-handed sermon…perhaps something a little stronger than “My Bodyguard”. And dreaming big, the song could be a part of the movie.
I envision something that would be a ‘talking tool’…something that kids would discuss amonst themselves…something that parents could watch with their kids and discuss at home.
Somehow I think that anti-bullying should be bigger than one 45-minute assembly or the theme of one parent’s meeting. (These are both necessary to the fight against bullying but, IMHO, are simply not enough.)
And I know that I suggested that it not be heavy-handed but that is another possible angle to pursue. When I headed out on some errands yesterday, I saw a former neighbor sitting on the porch visiting with his mom. I drove by and called out a greeting and they greeted in return. It was moments later that I remembered that I hadn’t seen this guy in 40 years…and my last memory of him was as a teenager, when he double-punched me (a two fisted punch from both the front and the back) that knocked the wind out of me and caused me to drop to the ground. I KNOW that he has a different perspective on such bullying now.
That memory led me to remember how my one brother used to be part of a gang of teenagers who would go downtown to bash gays. And how ashamed he felt when he realized that I had travelled those same streets and that I had been bashed by a gang of rowdies like himself. Perhaps engaging former bullies and bashers in our efforts would have some effect.
Re a movie, a song, or both. I don’t believe it would be necessary to stipulate either mention or no mention. Get someone on board who has a heart for kids and sees the bullying crisis for what it is…and suggest that the time is ripe for addressing it in the world of popular entertainment and invite them to ‘do what they can’.
For a song, one way to ensure that it would have more ‘specific to gay’ impact would be to enlist the talents of an openly gay performer. I envision the talents of say Melissa Etheridge, Janis Ian or Elton John but they’d also face the challenge of winning the ears of the young.
Oh-oh. We have a little problem with the above post. Sorry! Can’t say how that all got linked.
There’s more research to be done than what I have begun, which is just scratching the surface. I’m sure others of you have seen some of this information. I don’t recall anyone bringing up the study from January of this year, “School-Based Programs to Reduce Bullying and Victimization,” by David P. Farrington, Maria M. Ttofi. The study was undertaken through a grant by the U.S. Department of Justice, but the results not necessarily endorsed by the DOJ. Here’s a brief excerpt from the study’s summary:
I also found some blogs run by concerned moms and one that referenced this study as proof that anti-bullying programs are not very effective. Let’s face it, in whose version of reality do we claim that a 17-20 percent rate of effectiveness is a good thing? It’s better than nothing, of course. But are there better ways?
I can’t recall if the Bullies2Buddies program has been discussed here before. Lots of interesting insight there, as well, including this offering:
They mention Olweus and his work, that was brought up in another thread recently. The commonsense assessment in this program is that (in the words of Aristotle) “the one thing that no state or government can do, no matter how good it is, is to make its citizens morally virtuous.” We’ve discussed that here before, too. This site also references an earlier study, “The Effectiveness of Whole-School Anti-Bullying Programs: A Synthesis of Evaluation Research.” I can’t seem to bring up a link for that one, but it is easily found via a Google search. It puts the effectiveness rate of programs at only 14 percent.
Now, we have discussed extensively in another thread here the touted effectiveness of programs that specifically mention gay kids as bullying targets. But I cannot make the leap in logic as to why that should work better than other programs. Believe me, I want to see something out that there works as much as anyone does. I also don’t believe we should just shrug our shoulders and give up because we cannot change human nature. There’s a great temptation for us to be armchair psychologists or moralists here. But what can we actually influence and change? And how do we go about doing it?
We can never take parents out of the equation. Everyone of us who has raised kids knows how vital we are to helping them develop proper self-esteem and the ability to deal with the real world, harsh as it can be. Why do some kids handle teasing, bullying better than others? How does the breakdown of the family contribute to it? What resources are at a community’s or school’s disposal to help offset the deficiencies?
ken – I agree with you on the “It only gets worse” thing. His video only gets worse…
It looks like it was made on an early version of Movie Maker, with a home movie camera on a tripod. There is nothing there but a guy with a website and a KJV.
I think the “It only gets worse” video should be ignored. No reasonable person is going to watch that and agree with those sentiments. However, if people start protesting it (and calling on Christian Right groups to do the same) you are going to be giving this person what he wants, Publicity.
I watched the 1st 30 sec and stopped. To those who haven’t watched it, I recommend you don’t. All that will do is upset you and increase the view count on the video.
The Lot Project. Sigh. It will die a deserved death and never get off the ground. All harsh truth and no compassion. And that video is horribly cruel to Billy Lucas’ family. Lord, deliver us from people like this! Best to ignore him. He has one tool, a great big hammer. Nothing new.
That would certainly be a step in the right direction. And where there is a school counselor, let them work with the bullies, as David also pointed to. It’s interesting that we have the bloated (with funds) NEA looking out for teachers’ interests, but barely a soul to protect the kids from each other. Perhaps the NEA has a role to play in preventing bullying as well.
I like Eddy’s idea. Should they mention percieved sexual orienation in the song? I also like Debbie’s idea of school counselors working with the bullies, but think their first priority should be working with the victims. And I agreee with Lynn David about police/school laisons. More teacher training. Clear guidelines on mandated reporting — and why isn’t teasing illegal? How about restraining orders?
I hear ya…HOWEVER…I’m not willing to give up on the entire entertainment industry based on those who have hijacked it for other means. AND, I’m not suggesting this as THE answer…only one solution that could have mass appeal and perhaps some genuine impact.
I have a bit of a reputation for railing against ‘the media’ but I’m now wondering if there would be a way to encourage a ‘popular’ message against bullying. As an oldster, I think of encouraging Neil Diamond, Elton John, or Billy Joel into crafting a song that would have popular appeal…something with a strong message. A movie would be another option…not a heavy-handed sermon…perhaps something a little stronger than “My Bodyguard”. And dreaming big, the song could be a part of the movie.
I envision something that would be a ‘talking tool’…something that kids would discuss amonst themselves…something that parents could watch with their kids and discuss at home.
Somehow I think that anti-bullying should be bigger than one 45-minute assembly or the theme of one parent’s meeting. (These are both necessary to the fight against bullying but, IMHO, are simply not enough.)
And I know that I suggested that it not be heavy-handed but that is another possible angle to pursue. When I headed out on some errands yesterday, I saw a former neighbor sitting on the porch visiting with his mom. I drove by and called out a greeting and they greeted in return. It was moments later that I remembered that I hadn’t seen this guy in 40 years…and my last memory of him was as a teenager, when he double-punched me (a two fisted punch from both the front and the back) that knocked the wind out of me and caused me to drop to the ground. I KNOW that he has a different perspective on such bullying now.
That memory led me to remember how my one brother used to be part of a gang of teenagers who would go downtown to bash gays. And how ashamed he felt when he realized that I had travelled those same streets and that I had been bashed by a gang of rowdies like himself. Perhaps engaging former bullies and bashers in our efforts would have some effect.
Oh-oh. We have a little problem with the above post. Sorry! Can’t say how that all got linked.
There’s more research to be done than what I have begun, which is just scratching the surface. I’m sure others of you have seen some of this information. I don’t recall anyone bringing up the study from January of this year, “School-Based Programs to Reduce Bullying and Victimization,” by David P. Farrington, Maria M. Ttofi. The study was undertaken through a grant by the U.S. Department of Justice, but the results not necessarily endorsed by the DOJ. Here’s a brief excerpt from the study’s summary:
I also found some blogs run by concerned moms and one that referenced this study as proof that anti-bullying programs are not very effective. Let’s face it, in whose version of reality do we claim that a 17-20 percent rate of effectiveness is a good thing? It’s better than nothing, of course. But are there better ways?
I can’t recall if the Bullies2Buddies program has been discussed here before. Lots of interesting insight there, as well, including this offering:
They mention Olweus and his work, that was brought up in another thread recently. The commonsense assessment in this program is that (in the words of Aristotle) “the one thing that no state or government can do, no matter how good it is, is to make its citizens morally virtuous.” We’ve discussed that here before, too. This site also references an earlier study, “The Effectiveness of Whole-School Anti-Bullying Programs: A Synthesis of Evaluation Research.” I can’t seem to bring up a link for that one, but it is easily found via a Google search. It puts the effectiveness rate of programs at only 14 percent.
Now, we have discussed extensively in another thread here the touted effectiveness of programs that specifically mention gay kids as bullying targets. But I cannot make the leap in logic as to why that should work better than other programs. Believe me, I want to see something out that there works as much as anyone does. I also don’t believe we should just shrug our shoulders and give up because we cannot change human nature. There’s a great temptation for us to be armchair psychologists or moralists here. But what can we actually influence and change? And how do we go about doing it?
We can never take parents out of the equation. Everyone of us who has raised kids knows how vital we are to helping them develop proper self-esteem and the ability to deal with the real world, harsh as it can be. Why do some kids handle teasing, bullying better than others? How does the breakdown of the family contribute to it? What resources are at a community’s or school’s disposal to help offset the deficiencies?
There’s been two responses:
Dan Savage’s “It gets better” project, to give bullied gay kids hope. To stop the suicides.
And in response to that, this video – It only gets worse – from a “Christian” outreach project, to remove that hope.
But it’s nothing personal:
That’s what they see these tragedies as. A “unique opportunity” for them.
They’re out to save kids from Eternal Damnation you see.
They claim the suicides aren’t from the beatings. They’re from the sense of guilt that gay kids feel. That many of the kids who suicide aren’t actually gay, just perceived that way, that’s an inconvenient fact they have to ignore.
Note that the “LOT project” of Arizona is quite different from the “L.O.T. project” of South Carolina. The latter stands for “Least Of These” and does Christian charitable work, feeding the poor.
The Lot Project. Sigh. It will die a deserved death and never get off the ground. All harsh truth and no compassion. And that video is horribly cruel to Billy Lucas’ family. Lord, deliver us from people like this! Best to ignore him. He has one tool, a great big hammer. Nothing new.
I am beginning to think that there should be a laison between the schools and local law enforcement. Much of this is going beyond name calling into the realm of assaults. School officials may not be able to deal with that. Family courts might be needed.
More from the link, above:
Gay teen dies after 10 days on life support, following suicide attempt over anti-gay bullying.
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/
My parents and inlaws were all teachers, so I know how difficult that can be. I am not talking about being refereeing every argument. I am talking about obvious attacks and observed violence where someone gets injured. I am talking about kids with a history of bullying and aggression who never get called on the carpet for it.
I am talking about those who see it and do nothing. Of administrators who get calls from parents and do little. I am talking about teachers and administrators who choose to be blind to it. Or people who are too scared to be seen as pro or anti “agenda” to even name frequent targets and protect the most vulnerable.
The everyday teacher trying to keep kids in line gets a little bit more tolerance from me since they cannot be everywhere at once and notice every threat or assault. But where the violence is obvious or habitual, why would they not step in and deal with it strongly? If they knew and did little or nothing, they deserve criminal charges for child endangerment.
Mary wrote
‘it is very difficult to stop every action of hitting, name calling, pushing, etc…etc….‘
Even teachers can be bullied. I know of a few cases in which high school teachers have been bullied. So they don’t always control what happens in their class, sometimes for reasons which include their own security.
Warren wrote
Sorry I can’t contribute to that, since I’m in Europe. But I did contribute here to starting programs that target identifying children who are at risk of having emotional and adjustment problems because of early interactions between their temperament and environment, and that includes bullying too as well as other interactions.
@ David.
True. I had band class and there was an incident of which I had no awareness. I still wonder how it is that a child could threaten another child with death and I didn’t catch it. I just didn’t catch it.
Mary,
Try 36…
Or 50 if it is choir or gym or band or symphony…
Need a specialist. Vice Principal.
Sometimes with the amount of social learning that need to be accomplished by children it is very difficult to stop every action of hitting, name calling, pushing, etc…etc…. It is a process that needs to be learned. And it is demanding on the teachers to be the referee in every situation for 24 – 32 students.
I am beginning to think that there should be a laison between the schools and local law enforcement. Much of this is going beyond name calling into the realm of assaults. School officials may not be able to deal with that. Family courts might be needed.
Not only job threatening but it should be recognized as a criminal offense because ignoring the safety of another (in the work place) has been so classified as criminal.
More from the link, above:
Gay teen dies after 10 days on life support, following suicide attempt over anti-gay bullying.
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/
In California, teachers are mandated reporters of any suspected child abuse. This has to be done with a call within 24 hours to the proper authorities and accompanied by a written report to CPS.
Do teachers and administrators understand that this should (does) include bullying and child-on-child violence? Isn’t mandated reporting for teachers and school officials the law in other states?
Pardon me “bullying kid”…not bullied kid.
Bullied kid referred to me not long ago had been prosecuted for assault and placed on probation to insure he got treatment…he was suspended from school.
…this blunt event was quite effective at protecting the victim…treatment allowed him to gain empathy for his victim.
Zoe,
I was following you to this point…they I could imagine the “over-caution” brain dead response being triggered.
Make one person in the school responsible…get them training and pay them a bonus…protect them personally from liability, but not the district…direct all complaints to that person. Have a liason at the police department to assess for risk.
ken,
1. instill a multi-tier anti-bullying program.
2. convince the teachers of its importance.
3. get the teacher’s union to agree that ignoring bullying is a fireable offense
4. when bullying is observed, call in the parents of the bully for a discussion about what THEY are going to do to stop it
5. call them back for a follow up meeting in two weeks – if they don’t participate, kick their kid out
I’m sure there is a lot more that could be done. But it requires the administrators to care and from what i read over and over and over and over, it’s at the schools where they just don’t care that kids die.
@Michael Bussee
[Hug]
Your experience mirrors my own. The problem with telling kids to work it out amongst themselves is that they often stop reporting anything, even more serious stuff, to parents and school authorities. The impression is left that either the authorities don’t understand, they don’t care, or worse, that this is “normal”.
@Debbie
One piece of advice on playground duty in elementary school. Something I’ve observed sometimes, a sure sign that something is very, very wrong.
Look at the teacher or supervisor strolling the playground. You might see them holding hands with the kids, and they in turn holding hands with others so two lines form, one on either side. And the smaller kids playing happily, laughing and singing., keeping in front of the supervisor. Sweet, right?
Always keeping within sight. If she turns, see them scramble, shrieking, to maintain that position, always in front, always in sight, never behind.
Because there are predators out there, and you can even sometimes see them pounce on a kid who doesn’t keep in sight, dragging them away to a private spot. If the line of hand-holders is too long, some might even be daring enough to grab one from the end. If caught – “well, they were just playing a game”.
Concrete steps – lay a paper trail with an independent authority to record what has been said. I suspect that most such cases will be tempests in teapots.
But make sure that when there is concrete, verifiable proof of inaction by authorities, proof that cannot be mislaid or covered up… that you make a Horrible Example of those whose negligence led to tragedy. ‘Pour encourager les autres’
The danger is that you will terrorise teachers so they act inappropriately – the “zero tolerance” stupidity we’ve seen where kids have been handcuffed by the police for drawing pictures of guns under a school’s “no weapons” policy.
There’s not a lot that can be done about such brain-dead incompetence. And we can’t teach teachers to care. Hopefully, as part of teacher training, they’ve received adequate instruction in anti-bullying measures, but refresher courses are probably necessary, if only so they know what party-line to parrot, even if they don’t implement it.
But if you back that up with threats of jail-time and bankrupcy, personal liability, and make sure that only those obviously guilty will be punished – that’s crucial – then even those who don’t care and want to take the easy road will see that it’s in their best interests to actually do their jobs.
While what happened with Asher was a tragedy, before this discussion turns into a pecking party on the teachers, perhaps people could instead come up with some constructive suggestions on how to handle bullying. What should be done to prevent bullying? what should teachers/administrators/parents do if a child reports a problem with another child in school?
From the time I was young, I have never been able to tolerate bullying. Though I am ashamed to say I remember being for a while in a little schoolyard gang that teased a couple girls from the wrong side of the tracks, I also remember taking up for bullied kids, or reporting these problems to a teacher.
As a parent helper at our children’s school, I had both classroom and playground supervision duty. There were occasional teasing incidents, but I do remember one outright bully, a boy, about 2nd-3rd grade aged. He was always going after some poor little kid. One day, some of his victims had had enough, and a group of them encircled him, with the intent of pouncing on him. I got there just in time to stop it. That kid never forgot it. I was his pal from that time on. Of course some would say he was about to receive his just deserts and maybe would have learned from it. But I don’t believe jungle law teaches anything but more violence.
Adults need to be adults, for Pete’s sake, and teach kids how to act civilized. That’s not to say they will all learn it. Teachers as baby sitters can’t override the influences of a poor home environment. Kids will model hat they see at home. But if school can’t be a safe place for them, then heaven help us.
I was bullied, cursed at, punched and beaten more days in elementary school than I care to remember. I didn’t get suicidal — just very depressed and puzzled as to why someone would want to hurt me and what words like “homo” and “sissy” meant.
The teachers DID look the other way — hardly keeping an eye on the playground. If they did notice me bloody or crying, their typicsl response was “Just stay away from them”, or “Now boys, don’t fight”. I wasn’t fighting. I was being attacked. Surely they could see that?
No one went after the bullies as far as I knew — except for a scolding to BOTH of us. One day, I went to the Vice Principle’s office to complain since the teachers were doing nothing. He shrugged his shoulders, gave me some advice of self-defense and suggested I learn. I was too ashamed to tell my parents how I really got the bruises and scrapes.
Perhaps, times have changed, perhaps not — but I was left with the feeling that the adults didn’t really take it seriously. Too busy with whatever else was more important to them. I echo Debbie here:
I am very afraid that more deaths and severe legal sanctions against school districts are t the only things that will prompt some school officials to take note — and get down to the real business of stopping bullying in their schools.
Mary,
Try 36…
Or 50 if it is choir or gym or band or symphony…
Need a specialist. Vice Principal.
Sometimes with the amount of social learning that need to be accomplished by children it is very difficult to stop every action of hitting, name calling, pushing, etc…etc…. It is a process that needs to be learned. And it is demanding on the teachers to be the referee in every situation for 24 – 32 students.
So…
Do we have multiple narratives where school personnel are aware, but do not take any action?
I think so. Certainly the story here represents itself that way.
The story I alluded to (child with CP bullied on the bus) represented itself that way.
It seems these kids often know they should reach out for protection and support from adults….
The adults immediately in the situation seem content to throw them to the wolves.
From the same school district last year:
If it’s true that the school is stonewalling on the fact that his parents complained, that is reprehensible. It’s hard to think that kids like this have to become martyrs in order for schools to take effective action against bullying. My heart aches for his parents and for all who grieve these deaths. So very sad.
From the time I was young, I have never been able to tolerate bullying. Though I am ashamed to say I remember being for a while in a little schoolyard gang that teased a couple girls from the wrong side of the tracks, I also remember taking up for bullied kids, or reporting these problems to a teacher.
As a parent helper at our children’s school, I had both classroom and playground supervision duty. There were occasional teasing incidents, but I do remember one outright bully, a boy, about 2nd-3rd grade aged. He was always going after some poor little kid. One day, some of his victims had had enough, and a group of them encircled him, with the intent of pouncing on him. I got there just in time to stop it. That kid never forgot it. I was his pal from that time on. Of course some would say he was about to receive his just deserts and maybe would have learned from it. But I don’t believe jungle law teaches anything but more violence.
Adults need to be adults, for Pete’s sake, and teach kids how to act civilized. That’s not to say they will all learn it. Teachers as baby sitters can’t override the influences of a poor home environment. Kids will model hat they see at home. But if school can’t be a safe place for them, then heaven help us.
Did any articles mention his religion? In the link you cited it said one of the reasons he was picked on was his religion, but doesn’t mention what it is.
Equally reprehensible is that the school appears to be circling the wagons with regards to the parents complaints
the parents claim otherwise. Even if the parents are exaggerating that they made complaints to the school (not saying they are, just it is possible in their grief they are mis-remembering things), a far more compassionate response on the schools part would be to simply say “we are still looking into the matter.”
I would be very curious as to what their anti-bullying policy and program looks like. Are all teachers, parents and kids given information and instruction about it? Does the school district have a telephone number kids and adults can call to report abuse like this? Is the number well known and prominentaly displayed? Are the consequences for bullying clearly laid out? Does the program specifically mention frequent targets? Does the program have broad parental and staff support? Is it regularly reviewed? Are “new hires” trained and continuing stad retrained? So many questions I would like to ask. Maybe we could all learn something.
I just called the School District to express my sadness and to ask what they intended to do at the local level to combat bullying and save lives. I was told that the School District does have specific anti-bullying programs in place, but the representative could not give me thany additional information on how they intend to respond to this tragedy. The parents are claiming that did ask the school for help but that the school did not respond.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7220896.html