Sunday morning, a small group of teens stood outside Canyon Ridge Christian Church in Las Vegas and protested that church’s support for Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill. I reported about this event last night on Salon.com.
Chase Cates and Spencer Niemetz are listed as the organizers of the event on this Facebook event page. According to Chase, 17 students came out altogether with about 10 at any one time. The protesters ranged in age from 15-19 and represented a variety of views, backgrounds and orientations. The focus of their concern was that a local church was supporting one of the chief instigators of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. They wanted to raise awareness since there has been very notice of the situation around Las Vegas.
After the second service, some of the church leaders invited the teens in for a meeting. Some of them, including Cates, took them up on their offer.
According to Cates, the leaders dodged some of their questions, including how much support the church sent to Martin Ssempa and what criteria would be used to determine support. Pastor Mitch Harrison confirmed to me that the meeting occured although he did not say whether or not he acknowledged that the Anti-Homosexuality Bill addressed adult consensual behavior. Cates seemed to think they understood, but Harrison did not confirm this. Here is an excerpt from the Salon piece on that point:
Cates said he wanted to raise awareness about the Anti-Homosexuality Bill and said that “if this bill was passed and people were executed or criminalized in any way, Canyon Ridge Christian Church in turn would be held responsible for financing Ssempa who so overtly pushed the bill.”
Cates, a Las Vegas man who will enter college in the fall, said the reaction from the church members was mostly positive. “After the second service, CRCC invited us to join members of the church to have an open discussion of the issue. We took them up on their offer and ended up having a two-hour conversation with Pastor [Mitch] Harrison and others,” he said.
According to Harrison, “nine or so” protesters came into the church for the discussion. Harrison said the teens raised “concerns about the bill criminalizing homosexual behavior.” He added, “Our goal in meeting with them wasn’t so much to express our opinions but to listen to their concerns and gain understanding.”
I hope understanding was gained because the recent response on the CRCC website demonstrates a lack of it when it comes to the AHB. Cates told me that he was not finished with the issue and there may be more awareness raising to come.
Of course Eddy would read Maazine’s post with interest and find them well within the bounds of good taste. Exactly what I would expect of this site’s foremost apologist of hatred toward gays.
Well, Eddy has issued a disclaimer on your phrase–“our point of view”. I am sure that you and several others here enjoy my comments immensely and look forward to them whenever you are on this blog, but I can understand why you need to deny it vehemently.
I always thought Africa was a continent. Don’t know why you insist that I am saying otherwise. Besides, my point was that, any criminal justice system that is going to execute or suggest execution for something other than the taking of another life (in my opinion) is a pretty cheap evaluation of life.
Regardless of Ugandian views on gays – what about their view on the value of human life? Pretty cheap.
Again, Maazi, you have confused my opinion with an opinion of someone else about someone else. I am against the death penalty whether it is in Uganda, United States, or EU. (if it existed) Remember we are talking about Uganda proposing the death penalty for a crime that does not take the life of another. Cheap value of a human. That’s my interpretation of Uganda’s proposed law on homosexuality.
Let me inform you of something, Maazi. Those of us here were aware of the bill almost at the same time it became known of in Uganda. We were aware of problems concerning gays and lesbians in Uganda, long before that. Your government’s Ethics Minister was all hot and bothered for this bill at the outset. And Martin Ssempa was in complete agreement with this bill for as much as 5 or 6 months before he put together his supposed coalition of all Christians in Uganda and came up with his proposal of hit-and-miss changes. So your borish tirades are on this issue are rather sad from our point of view.
Maybe Ugandan gays are a lot different than the ones here. If you were to dedicate the money and manpower to spying on most of our bedrooms to ensure your traditions, I think your police would be bored to death.
Usually, we’re just flipping through the channels trying to find something worth watching on TV. For the fun stuff like fisting and “eating da poo-poo”, you’d have to go to a Ssempa rally.
Despite deep official corruption, Uganda has made good strides in the areas you mentioned above. So because of poverty, we should not defend our cultural values from domestic puppets placed by Euro-American Gay Lobby to cause trouble? Poverty and crimes (including gay sex) must be tackled simultaneously. You seem to be implying that legalising gayism will automatically lead to prosperity and development. This is patently false since legalised sexual depravity does not correlate with development. Western nations were well advanced and developed before they even contemplated the idea of legalizing gay sex, gay adoption and gay marriage. There are Asian nations that are relatively wealthy or first world wealthy (e.g. Singapore) where gayism is criminalized. Please go there and campaign for decriminalization.
Fair enough. I’ll wait and see.
The police don’t sit outside their bedroom windows wating to catch them drinking a beer in the privacy of their own homes. They have better things to do.
A complete waste of time and resources, if you ask me. Police should spend their time protecting their citizens against direct threats to the lives, property of safety of their citizens– not enforcing cultural/religious values.
And no, I don’t believe that “legalising gayism will automatically lead to prosperity and development.” I think that devoting resources to these real problems will lead to prosperity.
Racist stereotypes which you probably learnt while watching the one-dimensional extremely biased coverage of a non-existent country called “Africa” by your ridiculous US media.
Nope – just by reading here.
As far as “gayism” being an inherited or immutable trait, I won’t suggest that — because the FACT is that no one knows (including you and me) what causes some people to be attracted to the opposite sex or same sex.
I am asking to explain how someone else’s private, adult, consenting sexual expression in private threatens you, your culture of the family in any way. Try answering that question instead of insisting “it’s a crime because we say it is”.
If you want to limit free speech and free assembly, do it. Close down gay bars. Prohibit gay marriage, gay adoption and gay advocacy — if that is your intent. You have every right to force gays to live in the closet where they won’t offend your traditions. Intimidate them into being invisible. The USA did that and some still think it still should.
If you really want to punish child abusers or those who commit sexual assault upon another person, don’t your existing laws already prohibit that? I ask again, what exactly are you wanting to criminalize — and why? Why should money be wasted spying on other people’s bedrooms?
Spying on people’s bedrooms to ensure compliance with “cultural norms” seems perverted to me. We call it voyeurism. Don’t you have better things to do?
What’s the average yearly income for Ugandans? The literacy rate? Have you wiped out malaria? Provided adequate, clean drinking water and sanitation? Housing? Developed your natural resources to their fullest potential?
Look — let’s be honest. Aren’t the following things are already illegal in Uganda? — gay marriage, gay adoption, sexual assault, rape, indecent exposure, having sex in public, deliberately infecting another peron with HIV, child slavery, etc?
Folks objected to this law because it called for life imprionment, death and turning in loved ones to the police. You say those things are being removed from the proposed bill. So what’s left?
If you don’t want gays bars, close them.
If you don’t want gay pride parades, prohibit them.
If you don’t want people saying that they are gay or expresing the opinion that being gay should not be considered a sin, sickness or crime, then severely limit the right to free speech.
Why not just be honest that the real intent of the Bill is to scare gays into the closet and keep them there?
Not as bored as your police who has to chase down 18-year old adults who are drinking alcohol (below legal age of 21). Its of course amazing that 17-year old american children can join the US Army to fight and die in imperialist wars in Iraq, Grenada, Vietnam, Laos and Somalia, but cannot drink alcohol when he/she becomes an adult at 18 years of age.
Not as bored as your police departments and justice officials who have to chase down polygamists (eh, sorry, bigamists) who are in consensual relationships with their adult partners.
Actually, for details on the fun stuff like fisting you wouldn’t have to go all the way to Ssempa, GLSEN could save you the travel expenses.
Congrats for being one of the few Americans that know anything about the world beyond the territory of the United States. At least when I come on vacation to the USA, I will bear in mind that there is at least one person who would not say— “Aaah, you from Kampala? Is that a small town in Idaho?” or “Kampala, where is that in south america?” or ” You are African? Dude, I am really sorry about what happened to your people in Haiti”
Well thats your opinion. I was partly educated in Europe and over there many of them think that Americans are bloood thirsty barbarians for refusing to abolish the death penalty. In fact, any fugitive american criminal who might face the death penalty is safe to stay in any EU nation because such a criminal will never be extradited to the United States.
You don’t need to be Albert Einstein to see that this blog is part of the unconventional wing of the US Media. It is only in USA that one can watch a broadcaster say that Africa is a country or hear a secretary of defence (Donald “there are known unknowns” Rumsfeld) state that “Africa is a great country”.
Mike,
The Ugandan people do not owe you an explanation for any of their actions. In any case, any sane person knows that gayism is not merely about deviant sex in the privacy of one’s bedroom. It is about coming out publicly half naked and dressed in outlandish crazy clothing to do Gay Pride March. Its about state recognition of ludicrous gay marriage, gay adoption and gay studies for children. If Ugandans wish to spy the bedrooms of sex deviants in order to ensure compliance with cultural norms, then its their choice. As an american, you can bleat all you want, but your opinion is irrelevant to us.
What a long list of rights !! It must have taken you ages to assemble them, but to what end? Everyone is entitled to internationally recognised human rights as enshrined in the 1948 UNDHR. However, UNDHR does not say that a criminal should not be punished according to the laws of his/her country. A convicted criminal cannot enjoy freedom of movement until they have served time in jail. Gay sex is a crime in Uganda and anyone who violates the law must serve the time—“consent” is no excuse and is irrelevant. Please do not bother to reply with a comment about gayism being an immutable trait like race because we do not accept that and it is not supported by any CREDIBLE scientific evidence.
Maazi:
I believe that “crimes” ought to be defined as actions which deprive others of these findamental rights. That’s why things like child abuse, sexual assault, robbery, etc. are appropriately defined as “crimes”.
Please explain how having sex with another consenting adult IN PRIVATE violates any OTHER persons rights. What business is that of yours? So far you have not addressed that basic question.
And can you provide any rationale for why ANY of these rights should be denied to someone simply because they are not heterosexual? As long as they they are not depriving anyone else in Uganda of these basic rights, why should theirs be denied?
The bestialists have not been able to get their sexual orientation delisted from the list of mental disorders by APA and WHO because they do not have effective political lobbying power like the euro-american gay machine. In Uganda and more than 80 nations of the world, where euro-american gay lobby has no influence, gayism is an insane concept and remains a criminal offence. We reject the pro-gay western classification of various sexual [dis]orientations
Hahaha, you deliberately obsfucate facts here in true gay propagandist fashion. UN Declaration on Human Rights (article 16) states clearly that “MEN and WOMEN of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family”
I see you seek to brand Ugandan Catholics as disobediant of their religious leaders. Your rhetoric is rather laughable as it is untruthful. Mixing pedophilia and homosexual orientations is the problem which you (and likely Bahati and Ssempa) are too far gone in your fears to realize; and for which the Bahati bill is woefully inept. Pedophilia is no respector of sexual orientation; those men who often abuse boys are more often than not heterosexual in their adult relationships.
.
And that is what has us so perplexed about the bill and also the proposals to change it by Ssempa’s group. First of all, any legislation about pedophila and any sexual conduct with those below Uganda’s age of consent should be treated in a separate bill or even bills (criminalizing an 18 year old boy for having what might be a consensual act of sex with a 17 year old girl or boy in the same way as someone perhaps 3-7 years older doesn’t fit – there are grey areas in some laws). Additionally, laws concerning the knowledgable spread of HIV should be considered separately – the problem with the Bahati bill is that it criminalizes a person for not knowing they might be HIV positive. Additionally, neither has anything to do if the person is homosexual, so they should apply to all Ugandans.
Why Ssempa’s group sought to create lower criminal penalties for pedopohiles rather than any consensual homosexual activity between adults is perplexing. Pedophiles are often serial offenders who criminally take advantage of numerous children in their need to exert power over a person. It is most difficult to rehabilitate them as our own American criminal justice system has found. That Ssempa thinks he is going to do it seems rather foolish an idea.
…
Michael,
I do not see you as one who learnt nothing and forgot nothing. No you are not I suppose! Over and Over and Over, I and several others like Maazi have clearly pointed out to that there was a reconsideration of that clause about death sentence. It is nolonger anything we are talking about. You keep trying to pull us back to an old conversation. I think you can speed up yo mind to what we are about right now.
No minister ever showed porn in Church. I guess you are referring to Pastor Ssempa here. Now Ssempa showed four slides of what homos do in privacy in a press conference at our National Theatre not his Makerere Community Church as Dr. Warren one time alledged. The second place he showed these four slides from was in Kisenyi during a workshop on homosexuality. Now most of the people who attended this workshop where born agains and you know with born agains a “spiritual” reaction to their disatisfaction with something is never far. They will always lift their hands and call on loudly when it comes to prayer. This is exactly what you saw in that video Warren posted. And this made you conclude that porn was shown in Church.
I will still say, I am proud of Ssempa, Bahati and the like who have helped us champion a battle against Western intended immoral agenda. Give yourself a break. As for us we’ll defend and support our nation and leaders. It is also important for you to respect us as a people. We donot eat “junk”, we donot eat refuse, we are not blind and we will never be blind. We are a people with a strong Culture. Buganda one of the Kingdom in Uganda is more 550 years old. America is just 234 years. You wonder who deserves more respect here and who has held their cultures.
For the right reasons, I support my Ugandan leaders who have braved every abuse at the hands of foreign predators and wolves.
OK, you speak of a “refined” Bill. You say you’d take away the death penalty. Take away life imprisonment. Take away the reporting requirement so people won’t have to turn in their loved ones. Take away the nonsense about protecting the “boychild” — since you already have laws against child abuse.
What’s left? Are you really going to waste time and resources going after adults who have consenting sex in the privacy of the own homes? Probably not. You have much bigger problems to deal with. So I ask again: What’s left?
Prohibiting gay pride parades? Closing down gay bars? Probiting gay sex in the streets? Holding hands? Kissing? What exactly would a “refined” law prohibit?
Without the death sentence, life imprisonment and forcing people to turn in their loved ones, do you think many people would care that you passed ordinances to just keep gays in the closet — out of view?
I am not talking about “gayism” as a human right. I am talking about requiring mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers to turn over to police their loved ones who may be “struggling” with their “same sex attractions” or face imprisonment themselves. Do you favor such a thing?
The teenagers were protesting a bill that calls for the death penalty for some gays, life imprisonment for others and a requirement that people turn in their loved ones to police. You don’t seem to understand that is what people are really upset about. If you don’t want people openly proclaiming their sexuality, why not just limit freedom of speech in your country and force gays to stay in the closet?
Michael,
You have the absolute freedom not visit the Pearl of Africa. Please don’t come, we don’t need you at all. How I long that you would stay in America and keep it like that forever because Uganda does not need morally eroded people like you. We have values we have cherished for long, we cant trash them they work. They have shaped us.
Uganda supports 75% of her budget now. Foreign aid is increasingly coming down. Your financial support to developing nations has got many conditions attached. It could hurt us if you pulled out but we will stay in that position forever. It’s just like if China pulled out of the US, your economy would cramble in the next 13 minutes. Atleast this you know.
You say our laws are unjust…it could be true according to you but I think part of your foreign policy is even terrible. Remember what you did in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Vietnam and many other nations. You know how much your nation has destroyed many other nations in the name of establishing peace. Gosh, you never stop for a second to know how part of American foreign policy stinks. You like poking yourself in internal matters of nations and yet you yourself failed in the 2000 elections in Florida. Shame on you Mike.
We’ll not have refugees. We’ll have opportunists looking for Visas and greener pastures in your countries. As for us, we’ll celebrate what our community representatives have passed.
I love my Nation Uganda.
Michael
with all due respect you sound a frustrated fellow who has nowhere to turn to. A man who has run out of gas. A man who has lost every sense of direction. A man whose mind and heart have have been eroded off virtue.
You sound so furious over a small matter that was misrepresented. Well we’ll square up with each other here but our parliament won’t be swayed away. Your pressure may actually steam a lot but will not produce a single result in our parliament.
Michael I wish you could know the meaning of the word “WOLOKOSO” means. That exactly describes you. You would get something better to write about; may be how to expand America’s selfish interests. All the best for you blog folk.
Lynn David,
Paedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia and gayism are all deviant sexual orientations, which transgress on African culture and traditions. All these will remain a criminal offence. Most Ugandans irrespective of religion are in agreement on this matter. The question being asked in Uganda today is what is the appropriate penalty and how far should anti-gay laws go to become more effective? Talking about 40% of this or 40% of that is actually an exercise in great futility. If in doubt, please speak to cross-section of Ugandan Catholics and see if they are eager to have gayism decriminalized.
I forsee a lot ordinary Africans using the “we-are-the-oppressed-gays-from-Uganda” theme to go globe-trotting from London to Amsterdam to Paris to Canberra to Ontario. Some of these clever Africans will come to America to settle, earn some hot greenbacks and return home later on. I hope your border patrols will be armed with a hand-held device that can tell who is gay sex practitioner and who is not. Perhaps, Euro-American Gay Lobby can invent the device which should be called a Gaylobbystrometer
Dave,
If I can clearly remember what my Bible says, your way of representing Christ is way below the expected. You do not remember the Scriptures that one Saint Paul wrote in Rom 1:26-27. It is evident here that Christ needs to be reformed in your heart. Dave let’s leave elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundations of repentance from acts that lead to spiritual death. How much more do u think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?Our giving must never have strings attached to. When I go for Mass, I give cheerfully without asking what the priest is going to do with that money. I know at the end of the quarter an accountability is presented to the Church. I wish I could preach….I leave that to my Area Parish Priest. Dave you need to double check your understanding of the man Jesus Christ and His Word.
Mike,
I agree—you don’t have to visit or come and live here, especially when you know that there shall be no Thailand-style gay sex tourism on offer. I am sure the Ugandan people will be comfortable if they are free of American tax dollars which is more of a weapon for economic blackmail than a device for helping africans. As you may know, Uganda has more viable alternative sources of finance.
Yes, they are all deviations from the norm and they may or may not fall in line with African culture and traditions, but they all are not sexual orientations. There are only three or maybe four sexual orientations as they describe normal adult relationships, heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality and maybe asexuality. The others are paraphilias which are classified as mental disorders. Orientations are not classified as such.
I too support some aspects of the bill. But pedophilia is not in the least an associate of homosexuality.
Do they seek to muzzle anyone’s speech about their life? Are you really going to deny your Ugandan constitutional right of free speech to gays and lesbians? Who will they deny free speech to next? Tribal leaders in the north? Then who?
What is it, about 40% of Uganda is Roman Catholic? Are those persons willing to accept what their archbishop has said about the bill (that it is not needed)? Are they willing to accept what their Pope and the Vatican say about criminalizing homosexuality? That is:
Lynn David,
I am not very religious, but I am probably part of the 40% that you are referring to. Ugandan Catholics are Africans. Gayism is against African culture and traditions. The Bahati Bill will be debated at the right time so that a brilliant new law will be fashioned against the cross-continental challenge posed by the Euro-American Gay Lobby. This of course is regardless of whatever the Vatican website says.
Mike Bussee
Thanks for your concern. Solving problems such as poverty, literacy issues, diseases, etc, are works in progress in Uganda. Gayism, which we view as an foreign-driven emergent problem, is also being tackled simultaneously. BTW, we do not recognize gay sex as a human right and we feel justified in our stance. After all, gayism is not part of the 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights ratified by 192 nations, including Uganda. Unless majority of the 192 nations can be convinced to ratify the non-binding Gay Sex Charter (i.e. the French and Dutch-authored “2008 UN Declaration on Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation”), sodomy remains outside the scope of internationally recognised human rights. It doesn’t matter what western governments, media or lobbyists like you have to say about it.
Mike,
I am sure if you have been reading my previous commentaries on several topics presented on this blog, you will know by now that I have expressed reservations about the original form of the bill. There are many Ugandans who feel that certain provisions in the bill are crude, undesirable and unduly harsh, even before foreign gay lobbyists began their propaganda campaign from abroad. These reservations will be tackled when parliament starts debating the bill. I am believe that at the end of the parliamentary process, a refined anti-gay law will emerge. I do not expect the refined anti-gay law to have provisions that impose death penalty or require parents/siblings to turn over their loved ones to the police
Oh, but I do. I understand that Western gay lobby groups want us to legalize gay sex, permit gay marriage, gay adoption and allow Kampala to be a theatre of the absurd where a bunch of clownish half dressed people can roam about in the name of Gay Pride March. The Ugandan people will not change their culture and traditions just because a bunch of over-fed people in western countries are upset. Europeans are always upset when America carries out the capital punishment, which is viewed as pure barbarism in Europe. I have not heard that the United States of America will abolish death penalty to keep Europeans happy.
“Dark mission” James??
Christianity is much more than a moral view on one issue .. This is about: how we represent Christ .. How we interact with the world .. How we communicate the love and grace of Christ… and .. What we support with our giving. .. to name a few things .. As I mentioned on another thread here .. We are coming at this issue with different foundational beliefs and concerns.
If those harsher penalties and the requirement to turn in loved ones were removed, I am sure there would be less international concern. If you want to force gays to live in secrecy by threatening them with imprisonment or forced “treatment”, I suppose you have every right to do so — just as your would have the right to prohibit polical debate, live under a dictator or outlaw a particular religion if you chose to.
I would not want to visit or live in such a country and I don’t think our country should financially support such oppression. But that’s your right as a sovereign nation. Go ahead. You pay for it.
Just don’t expect us to. And don’t feel indignant or whine if we don’t . We have a right to think your laws are unjust and and to say so openly. We like our freedoms. If the law passes, I hope other countries will will welcome your refugees.
If it’s truly about protecting kids from abuse (and I think that has always been a scare tactic not the actual concern) you don’t need to specify “homosexuality” to accomplish it. I believe that’s already illegal, right? Let’s be honest here. I get it. You really just want gays to remain in the closet.
Just close down any gay bars or gay organizations, prohibit open displays of same sex affection and limit free speech and free assembly. Forcing gays into unproven “treamtent” will not cure them and the “refined law” won’t rid Uganda of gays, but at least you can pretend that it has.
P.S. — I still think it’s disgusting to show porn in church. I rather see guys with their shirts off in a gay pride parade than see a minister defile the house of God.
Warren, congs of your dark mission. Hope you will actually hit your intended target.
Can you imagine that Jesus would call for such a thing? What Christianity have you been taught? Where did you learn it? Can you imagine Jesus showing porn in church, calling for the death penalty for gays, and imprisonment for others? I can’t.
Maazi–
LynnDavid does not speak for the entire readership here…not sure what or who was meant by ‘our point of view’. And I’m pretty sure that word was supposed to be ‘boorish’.
Frankly, I’ve been reading your latest posts with a great deal of interest and, given what’s been thrown at you, found them well within the bounds of good taste and quite informative.
BTW, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and in some ways, perhaps I still am. Like I have said on previous occassions, I am not a religious guy at all, but culture is very important to me. On the hand, the rest of my family are quite devout and though, they do not agree with the tactics of the evangelicals, they broadly support the general aspirations of the Bahati Bill while opposing certain harsh provisions within it. This is the case with most other catholics I have been in touch with. I am confident that a new refined law will emerge from the original Bahati bill once parliament has deleted or amended the flawed clauses that have got some of us worried.
Ok, folks. Personal stuff is off topic. I am not going to try to unravel it but will start deleting from here on out.
LynnDavid–
Isn’t it cool that this has become a blogsite where you can make unsupported claims and allegations against individuals?
Ok, folks. Personal stuff is off topic. I am not going to try to unravel it but will start deleting from here on out.
LynnDavid–
Isn’t it cool that this has become a blogsite where you can make unsupported claims and allegations against individuals?
Eddy seems to have selective amnesia on many points of issue.
Well, Eddy has issued a disclaimer on your phrase–“our point of view”. I am sure that you and several others here enjoy my comments immensely and look forward to them whenever you are on this blog, but I can understand why you need to deny it vehemently.
Eddy seems to have selective amnesia on many points of issue.
LOL. I found Maazi’s posts to be as civil in tone as Michael’s. Sorry that you can’t see that. As to your characterization of me, I believe it says more about you than it does about me. Others can make their own judgements.
Gee, I’ll bet you see that statement as evidence of my being an apologist for hatred of gays too. Or maybe it was this one:
Just oozing with ‘hatred of gays’ isn’t it?
I would suggest that either Warren deletes your comment as inappropriate or that you provide evidence to back up your slanderous statement. Go ahead, sir. You claim I’m foremost…so you shouldn’t have any trouble providing quotes from me that back up your claim that I’m an apologist for hatred of gays.
I do see things differently than you do, of that there is no doubt but I maintain that your charge qualifies as defamation, namecalling, an ad hominem attack and was intended to create a hostile environment for engaging in civil dialogue.
Night all!
Lynn David – please speak for yourself. I was not aware of all the issues concerning homosexuality in Uganda. I am aware that proposing the death penalty is cheap valuation of life. In Uganda or any country.
Nick C
Careful. Eddy does is not an apologist for anyone’s hatred towards any group of people. He has been more respectful in this blog than many others (including myself).
My ‘o’ key sometimes doesn’t work, herr spelling-nazi. But if not ‘boorish’ – then at the very least his characterizations have at times been inaccurate.
Of course Eddy would read Maazine’s post with interest and find them well within the bounds of good taste. Exactly what I would expect of this site’s foremost apologist of hatred toward gays.
Maazi–
LynnDavid does not speak for the entire readership here…not sure what or who was meant by ‘our point of view’. And I’m pretty sure that word was supposed to be ‘boorish’.
Frankly, I’ve been reading your latest posts with a great deal of interest and, given what’s been thrown at you, found them well within the bounds of good taste and quite informative.
Let me inform you of something, Maazi. Those of us here were aware of the bill almost at the same time it became known of in Uganda. We were aware of problems concerning gays and lesbians in Uganda, long before that. Your government’s Ethics Minister was all hot and bothered for this bill at the outset. And Martin Ssempa was in complete agreement with this bill for as much as 5 or 6 months before he put together his supposed coalition of all Christians in Uganda and came up with his proposal of hit-and-miss changes. So your borish tirades are on this issue are rather sad from our point of view.
Fair enough. I’ll wait and see.
Mike,
It is up to us to define what are our “real”and “unreal” problems. In addition to solving our developmental challenges, we view gay militancy as an emerging real problem instigated by foreign lobbyists supported by the gayism-obsessed Obama Administration (whose government recently pledged that “gay rights” was one of his top priorities with foreign nations). Social order and compliance with the law is needed for development to occur. We feel that in order to keep social order and prevent civil unrest, this foreign-inspired problem —gayism — has to be beaten back, canned and then thrown back across the Atlantic into the Northern Hemisphere.
The Ugandan State did not propose death penalty for gayism. An individual Member of Parliament (not the government) submitted a bill which proposed that penalty. I am tired of repeating that there were many Ugandans who disagreed with this penalty including some religious leaders, long before you Americans knew that there was such a country in Africa called “Uganda”. A member of parliament is free to submit whatever he or she likes as a bill, but it must go through parliamentary process where it would be assessed. If majority of the legislators deem the bill frivolous and unnecessary, it will be thrown out. If the bill is deemed necessary, it will be refined before it becomes law. Only when it is LAW then it can be said to be the position of the Ugandan State.
LOL. I found Maazi’s posts to be as civil in tone as Michael’s. Sorry that you can’t see that. As to your characterization of me, I believe it says more about you than it does about me. Others can make their own judgements.
Gee, I’ll bet you see that statement as evidence of my being an apologist for hatred of gays too. Or maybe it was this one:
Just oozing with ‘hatred of gays’ isn’t it?
I would suggest that either Warren deletes your comment as inappropriate or that you provide evidence to back up your slanderous statement. Go ahead, sir. You claim I’m foremost…so you shouldn’t have any trouble providing quotes from me that back up your claim that I’m an apologist for hatred of gays.
I do see things differently than you do, of that there is no doubt but I maintain that your charge qualifies as defamation, namecalling, an ad hominem attack and was intended to create a hostile environment for engaging in civil dialogue.
Night all!
Lynn David – please speak for yourself. I was not aware of all the issues concerning homosexuality in Uganda. I am aware that proposing the death penalty is cheap valuation of life. In Uganda or any country.
Nick C
Careful. Eddy does is not an apologist for anyone’s hatred towards any group of people. He has been more respectful in this blog than many others (including myself).
My ‘o’ key sometimes doesn’t work, herr spelling-nazi. But if not ‘boorish’ – then at the very least his characterizations have at times been inaccurate.
Mike,
It is up to us to define what are our “real”and “unreal” problems. In addition to solving our developmental challenges, we view gay militancy as an emerging real problem instigated by foreign lobbyists supported by the gayism-obsessed Obama Administration (whose government recently pledged that “gay rights” was one of his top priorities with foreign nations). Social order and compliance with the law is needed for development to occur. We feel that in order to keep social order and prevent civil unrest, this foreign-inspired problem —gayism — has to be beaten back, canned and then thrown back across the Atlantic into the Northern Hemisphere.
The Ugandan State did not propose death penalty for gayism. An individual Member of Parliament (not the government) submitted a bill which proposed that penalty. I am tired of repeating that there were many Ugandans who disagreed with this penalty including some religious leaders, long before you Americans knew that there was such a country in Africa called “Uganda”. A member of parliament is free to submit whatever he or she likes as a bill, but it must go through parliamentary process where it would be assessed. If majority of the legislators deem the bill frivolous and unnecessary, it will be thrown out. If the bill is deemed necessary, it will be refined before it becomes law. Only when it is LAW then it can be said to be the position of the Ugandan State.
Again, Maazi, you have confused my opinion with an opinion of someone else about someone else. I am against the death penalty whether it is in Uganda, United States, or EU. (if it existed) Remember we are talking about Uganda proposing the death penalty for a crime that does not take the life of another. Cheap value of a human. That’s my interpretation of Uganda’s proposed law on homosexuality.
The police don’t sit outside their bedroom windows wating to catch them drinking a beer in the privacy of their own homes. They have better things to do.
A complete waste of time and resources, if you ask me. Police should spend their time protecting their citizens against direct threats to the lives, property of safety of their citizens– not enforcing cultural/religious values.
And no, I don’t believe that “legalising gayism will automatically lead to prosperity and development.” I think that devoting resources to these real problems will lead to prosperity.
Congrats for being one of the few Americans that know anything about the world beyond the territory of the United States. At least when I come on vacation to the USA, I will bear in mind that there is at least one person who would not say— “Aaah, you from Kampala? Is that a small town in Idaho?” or “Kampala, where is that in south america?” or ” You are African? Dude, I am really sorry about what happened to your people in Haiti”
Well thats your opinion. I was partly educated in Europe and over there many of them think that Americans are bloood thirsty barbarians for refusing to abolish the death penalty. In fact, any fugitive american criminal who might face the death penalty is safe to stay in any EU nation because such a criminal will never be extradited to the United States.
I always thought Africa was a continent. Don’t know why you insist that I am saying otherwise. Besides, my point was that, any criminal justice system that is going to execute or suggest execution for something other than the taking of another life (in my opinion) is a pretty cheap evaluation of life.
You don’t need to be Albert Einstein to see that this blog is part of the unconventional wing of the US Media. It is only in USA that one can watch a broadcaster say that Africa is a country or hear a secretary of defence (Donald “there are known unknowns” Rumsfeld) state that “Africa is a great country”.
Despite deep official corruption, Uganda has made good strides in the areas you mentioned above. So because of poverty, we should not defend our cultural values from domestic puppets placed by Euro-American Gay Lobby to cause trouble? Poverty and crimes (including gay sex) must be tackled simultaneously. You seem to be implying that legalising gayism will automatically lead to prosperity and development. This is patently false since legalised sexual depravity does not correlate with development. Western nations were well advanced and developed before they even contemplated the idea of legalizing gay sex, gay adoption and gay marriage. There are Asian nations that are relatively wealthy or first world wealthy (e.g. Singapore) where gayism is criminalized. Please go there and campaign for decriminalization.
Nope – just by reading here.
Not as bored as your police who has to chase down 18-year old adults who are drinking alcohol (below legal age of 21). Its of course amazing that 17-year old american children can join the US Army to fight and die in imperialist wars in Iraq, Grenada, Vietnam, Laos and Somalia, but cannot drink alcohol when he/she becomes an adult at 18 years of age.
Not as bored as your police departments and justice officials who have to chase down polygamists (eh, sorry, bigamists) who are in consensual relationships with their adult partners.
Racist stereotypes which you probably learnt while watching the one-dimensional extremely biased coverage of a non-existent country called “Africa” by your ridiculous US media.
Actually, for details on the fun stuff like fisting you wouldn’t have to go all the way to Ssempa, GLSEN could save you the travel expenses.
Regardless of Ugandian views on gays – what about their view on the value of human life? Pretty cheap.
Maybe Ugandan gays are a lot different than the ones here. If you were to dedicate the money and manpower to spying on most of our bedrooms to ensure your traditions, I think your police would be bored to death.
Usually, we’re just flipping through the channels trying to find something worth watching on TV. For the fun stuff like fisting and “eating da poo-poo”, you’d have to go to a Ssempa rally.
Spying on people’s bedrooms to ensure compliance with “cultural norms” seems perverted to me. We call it voyeurism. Don’t you have better things to do?
What’s the average yearly income for Ugandans? The literacy rate? Have you wiped out malaria? Provided adequate, clean drinking water and sanitation? Housing? Developed your natural resources to their fullest potential?
Look — let’s be honest. Aren’t the following things are already illegal in Uganda? — gay marriage, gay adoption, sexual assault, rape, indecent exposure, having sex in public, deliberately infecting another peron with HIV, child slavery, etc?
Folks objected to this law because it called for life imprionment, death and turning in loved ones to the police. You say those things are being removed from the proposed bill. So what’s left?
If you don’t want gays bars, close them.
If you don’t want gay pride parades, prohibit them.
If you don’t want people saying that they are gay or expresing the opinion that being gay should not be considered a sin, sickness or crime, then severely limit the right to free speech.
Why not just be honest that the real intent of the Bill is to scare gays into the closet and keep them there?
Mike,
The Ugandan people do not owe you an explanation for any of their actions. In any case, any sane person knows that gayism is not merely about deviant sex in the privacy of one’s bedroom. It is about coming out publicly half naked and dressed in outlandish crazy clothing to do Gay Pride March. Its about state recognition of ludicrous gay marriage, gay adoption and gay studies for children. If Ugandans wish to spy the bedrooms of sex deviants in order to ensure compliance with cultural norms, then its their choice. As an american, you can bleat all you want, but your opinion is irrelevant to us.
As far as “gayism” being an inherited or immutable trait, I won’t suggest that — because the FACT is that no one knows (including you and me) what causes some people to be attracted to the opposite sex or same sex.
I am asking to explain how someone else’s private, adult, consenting sexual expression in private threatens you, your culture of the family in any way. Try answering that question instead of insisting “it’s a crime because we say it is”.
If you want to limit free speech and free assembly, do it. Close down gay bars. Prohibit gay marriage, gay adoption and gay advocacy — if that is your intent. You have every right to force gays to live in the closet where they won’t offend your traditions. Intimidate them into being invisible. The USA did that and some still think it still should.
If you really want to punish child abusers or those who commit sexual assault upon another person, don’t your existing laws already prohibit that? I ask again, what exactly are you wanting to criminalize — and why? Why should money be wasted spying on other people’s bedrooms?
Maazi:
I believe that “crimes” ought to be defined as actions which deprive others of these findamental rights. That’s why things like child abuse, sexual assault, robbery, etc. are appropriately defined as “crimes”.
Please explain how having sex with another consenting adult IN PRIVATE violates any OTHER persons rights. What business is that of yours? So far you have not addressed that basic question.
Hahaha, you deliberately obsfucate facts here in true gay propagandist fashion. UN Declaration on Human Rights (article 16) states clearly that “MEN and WOMEN of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family”
What a long list of rights !! It must have taken you ages to assemble them, but to what end? Everyone is entitled to internationally recognised human rights as enshrined in the 1948 UNDHR. However, UNDHR does not say that a criminal should not be punished according to the laws of his/her country. A convicted criminal cannot enjoy freedom of movement until they have served time in jail. Gay sex is a crime in Uganda and anyone who violates the law must serve the time—“consent” is no excuse and is irrelevant. Please do not bother to reply with a comment about gayism being an immutable trait like race because we do not accept that and it is not supported by any CREDIBLE scientific evidence.
The bestialists have not been able to get their sexual orientation delisted from the list of mental disorders by APA and WHO because they do not have effective political lobbying power like the euro-american gay machine. In Uganda and more than 80 nations of the world, where euro-american gay lobby has no influence, gayism is an insane concept and remains a criminal offence. We reject the pro-gay western classification of various sexual [dis]orientations
And can you provide any rationale for why ANY of these rights should be denied to someone simply because they are not heterosexual? As long as they they are not depriving anyone else in Uganda of these basic rights, why should theirs be denied?
Maazi: I want to reiterate that I am not suggesting that “homosexuality” should be a “human right” — but only that Human Rights should not be denied to a person simply because of who they love or what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom. The Human Rights I am speaking of include:
1. The right to life, liberty and security of person.
2. Freedom from slavery or servitude;.
3. Freedom from torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
4. Recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
5. Equal protection against any discrimination.
6. The right to an effective remedy in court.
7. Freecom from arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
8. Full equality to a fair and public hearing/trial.
9. The right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty.
10 . Freedom from arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home.
11. Freedom from attacks upon his honour and reputation.
12. The right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
13. The right to freedom of movement and residence.
14. The right to leave any country, including his own.
15. The right to seek asylum from persecution.
16. The right to a nationality.
17. The right to marry and to found a family.
18. The right to marriage with free and full consent of the intending spouses.
19. The right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
20. Freedom from being arbitrarily deprived of his property.
21. The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.
22. The freedom to change his religion or belief.
23. The right to freedom of opinion and expression.
24. The freedom to hold opinions without interference.
25. The right to seek, receive and impart information.
26. The right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
27. The right to take part in the government of his country.
28. The right of equal access to public service in his country.
29. The right to vote.in periodic and genuine elections.
30. Theright to work, to free choice of employment.
31. Just and favourable conditions of work.
32. The right to equal pay for equal work.
33. The right to form and to join trade unions.
34. The right to rest and leisure.
35. The right to the health and well-being of himself and of his family.
36. The right to education.
37. The right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community.
38. The right to pursue happiness
Didn’t Uganda sign on to this list of Human Rights?
Maazi: I want to reiterate that I am not suggesting that “homosexuality” should be a “human right” — but only that Human Rights should not be denied to a person simply because of who they love or what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom. The Human Rights I am speaking of include:
1. The right to life, liberty and security of person.
2. Freedom from slavery or servitude;.
3. Freedom from torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
4. Recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
5. Equal protection against any discrimination.
6. The right to an effective remedy in court.
7. Freecom from arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
8. Full equality to a fair and public hearing/trial.
9. The right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty.
10 . Freedom from arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home.
11. Freedom from attacks upon his honour and reputation.
12. The right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
13. The right to freedom of movement and residence.
14. The right to leave any country, including his own.
15. The right to seek asylum from persecution.
16. The right to a nationality.
17. The right to marry and to found a family.
18. The right to marriage with free and full consent of the intending spouses.
19. The right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
20. Freedom from being arbitrarily deprived of his property.
21. The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.
22. The freedom to change his religion or belief.
23. The right to freedom of opinion and expression.
24. The freedom to hold opinions without interference.
25. The right to seek, receive and impart information.
26. The right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
27. The right to take part in the government of his country.
28. The right of equal access to public service in his country.
29. The right to vote.in periodic and genuine elections.
30. Theright to work, to free choice of employment.
31. Just and favourable conditions of work.
32. The right to equal pay for equal work.
33. The right to form and to join trade unions.
34. The right to rest and leisure.
35. The right to the health and well-being of himself and of his family.
36. The right to education.
37. The right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community.
38. The right to pursue happiness
Didn’t Uganda sign on to this list of Human Rights?
Yes, they are all deviations from the norm and they may or may not fall in line with African culture and traditions, but they all are not sexual orientations. There are only three or maybe four sexual orientations as they describe normal adult relationships, heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality and maybe asexuality. The others are paraphilias which are classified as mental disorders. Orientations are not classified as such.
I too support some aspects of the bill. But pedophilia is not in the least an associate of homosexuality.
Do they seek to muzzle anyone’s speech about their life? Are you really going to deny your Ugandan constitutional right of free speech to gays and lesbians? Who will they deny free speech to next? Tribal leaders in the north? Then who?
BTW, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and in some ways, perhaps I still am. Like I have said on previous occassions, I am not a religious guy at all, but culture is very important to me. On the hand, the rest of my family are quite devout and though, they do not agree with the tactics of the evangelicals, they broadly support the general aspirations of the Bahati Bill while opposing certain harsh provisions within it. This is the case with most other catholics I have been in touch with. I am confident that a new refined law will emerge from the original Bahati bill once parliament has deleted or amended the flawed clauses that have got some of us worried.
Lynn David,
Paedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia and gayism are all deviant sexual orientations, which transgress on African culture and traditions. All these will remain a criminal offence. Most Ugandans irrespective of religion are in agreement on this matter. The question being asked in Uganda today is what is the appropriate penalty and how far should anti-gay laws go to become more effective? Talking about 40% of this or 40% of that is actually an exercise in great futility. If in doubt, please speak to cross-section of Ugandan Catholics and see if they are eager to have gayism decriminalized.
I see you seek to brand Ugandan Catholics as disobediant of their religious leaders. Your rhetoric is rather laughable as it is untruthful. Mixing pedophilia and homosexual orientations is the problem which you (and likely Bahati and Ssempa) are too far gone in your fears to realize; and for which the Bahati bill is woefully inept. Pedophilia is no respector of sexual orientation; those men who often abuse boys are more often than not heterosexual in their adult relationships.
.
And that is what has us so perplexed about the bill and also the proposals to change it by Ssempa’s group. First of all, any legislation about pedophila and any sexual conduct with those below Uganda’s age of consent should be treated in a separate bill or even bills (criminalizing an 18 year old boy for having what might be a consensual act of sex with a 17 year old girl or boy in the same way as someone perhaps 3-7 years older doesn’t fit – there are grey areas in some laws). Additionally, laws concerning the knowledgable spread of HIV should be considered separately – the problem with the Bahati bill is that it criminalizes a person for not knowing they might be HIV positive. Additionally, neither has anything to do if the person is homosexual, so they should apply to all Ugandans.
Why Ssempa’s group sought to create lower criminal penalties for pedopohiles rather than any consensual homosexual activity between adults is perplexing. Pedophiles are often serial offenders who criminally take advantage of numerous children in their need to exert power over a person. It is most difficult to rehabilitate them as our own American criminal justice system has found. That Ssempa thinks he is going to do it seems rather foolish an idea.
…
James — then you misjudge me. (And you conveniently avoided every question!) Yes, I am frustrated that you refuse to answer, but I have not “lost sense of direction.”
Here’s my direction: I seek to follow God to my best understanding and to show his love to my fellow human beings. If that’s “eroded off virtue” that’s fine by me.
Michael
with all due respect you sound a frustrated fellow who has nowhere to turn to. A man who has run out of gas. A man who has lost every sense of direction. A man whose mind and heart have have been eroded off virtue.
You sound so furious over a small matter that was misrepresented. Well we’ll square up with each other here but our parliament won’t be swayed away. Your pressure may actually steam a lot but will not produce a single result in our parliament.
Michael I wish you could know the meaning of the word “WOLOKOSO” means. That exactly describes you. You would get something better to write about; may be how to expand America’s selfish interests. All the best for you blog folk.
James — then you misjudge me. (And you conveniently avoided every question!) Yes, I am frustrated that you refuse to answer, but I have not “lost sense of direction.”
Here’s my direction: I seek to follow God to my best understanding and to show his love to my fellow human beings. If that’s “eroded off virtue” that’s fine by me.
OK, you speak of a “refined” Bill. You say you’d take away the death penalty. Take away life imprisonment. Take away the reporting requirement so people won’t have to turn in their loved ones. Take away the nonsense about protecting the “boychild” — since you already have laws against child abuse.
What’s left? Are you really going to waste time and resources going after adults who have consenting sex in the privacy of the own homes? Probably not. You have much bigger problems to deal with. So I ask again: What’s left?
Prohibiting gay pride parades? Closing down gay bars? Probiting gay sex in the streets? Holding hands? Kissing? What exactly would a “refined” law prohibit?
Without the death sentence, life imprisonment and forcing people to turn in their loved ones, do you think many people would care that you passed ordinances to just keep gays in the closet — out of view?
Michael,
You have the absolute freedom not visit the Pearl of Africa. Please don’t come, we don’t need you at all. How I long that you would stay in America and keep it like that forever because Uganda does not need morally eroded people like you. We have values we have cherished for long, we cant trash them they work. They have shaped us.
Uganda supports 75% of her budget now. Foreign aid is increasingly coming down. Your financial support to developing nations has got many conditions attached. It could hurt us if you pulled out but we will stay in that position forever. It’s just like if China pulled out of the US, your economy would cramble in the next 13 minutes. Atleast this you know.
You say our laws are unjust…it could be true according to you but I think part of your foreign policy is even terrible. Remember what you did in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Vietnam and many other nations. You know how much your nation has destroyed many other nations in the name of establishing peace. Gosh, you never stop for a second to know how part of American foreign policy stinks. You like poking yourself in internal matters of nations and yet you yourself failed in the 2000 elections in Florida. Shame on you Mike.
We’ll not have refugees. We’ll have opportunists looking for Visas and greener pastures in your countries. As for us, we’ll celebrate what our community representatives have passed.
I love my Nation Uganda.
Michael,
I do not see you as one who learnt nothing and forgot nothing. No you are not I suppose! Over and Over and Over, I and several others like Maazi have clearly pointed out to that there was a reconsideration of that clause about death sentence. It is nolonger anything we are talking about. You keep trying to pull us back to an old conversation. I think you can speed up yo mind to what we are about right now.
No minister ever showed porn in Church. I guess you are referring to Pastor Ssempa here. Now Ssempa showed four slides of what homos do in privacy in a press conference at our National Theatre not his Makerere Community Church as Dr. Warren one time alledged. The second place he showed these four slides from was in Kisenyi during a workshop on homosexuality. Now most of the people who attended this workshop where born agains and you know with born agains a “spiritual” reaction to their disatisfaction with something is never far. They will always lift their hands and call on loudly when it comes to prayer. This is exactly what you saw in that video Warren posted. And this made you conclude that porn was shown in Church.
I will still say, I am proud of Ssempa, Bahati and the like who have helped us champion a battle against Western intended immoral agenda. Give yourself a break. As for us we’ll defend and support our nation and leaders. It is also important for you to respect us as a people. We donot eat “junk”, we donot eat refuse, we are not blind and we will never be blind. We are a people with a strong Culture. Buganda one of the Kingdom in Uganda is more 550 years old. America is just 234 years. You wonder who deserves more respect here and who has held their cultures.
For the right reasons, I support my Ugandan leaders who have braved every abuse at the hands of foreign predators and wolves.
Dave,
If I can clearly remember what my Bible says, your way of representing Christ is way below the expected. You do not remember the Scriptures that one Saint Paul wrote in Rom 1:26-27. It is evident here that Christ needs to be reformed in your heart. Dave let’s leave elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundations of repentance from acts that lead to spiritual death. How much more do u think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?Our giving must never have strings attached to. When I go for Mass, I give cheerfully without asking what the priest is going to do with that money. I know at the end of the quarter an accountability is presented to the Church. I wish I could preach….I leave that to my Area Parish Priest. Dave you need to double check your understanding of the man Jesus Christ and His Word.
I forsee a lot ordinary Africans using the “we-are-the-oppressed-gays-from-Uganda” theme to go globe-trotting from London to Amsterdam to Paris to Canberra to Ontario. Some of these clever Africans will come to America to settle, earn some hot greenbacks and return home later on. I hope your border patrols will be armed with a hand-held device that can tell who is gay sex practitioner and who is not. Perhaps, Euro-American Gay Lobby can invent the device which should be called a Gaylobbystrometer
Mike,
I agree—you don’t have to visit or come and live here, especially when you know that there shall be no Thailand-style gay sex tourism on offer. I am sure the Ugandan people will be comfortable if they are free of American tax dollars which is more of a weapon for economic blackmail than a device for helping africans. As you may know, Uganda has more viable alternative sources of finance.
Lynn David,
I am not very religious, but I am probably part of the 40% that you are referring to. Ugandan Catholics are Africans. Gayism is against African culture and traditions. The Bahati Bill will be debated at the right time so that a brilliant new law will be fashioned against the cross-continental challenge posed by the Euro-American Gay Lobby. This of course is regardless of whatever the Vatican website says.
What is it, about 40% of Uganda is Roman Catholic? Are those persons willing to accept what their archbishop has said about the bill (that it is not needed)? Are they willing to accept what their Pope and the Vatican say about criminalizing homosexuality? That is:
If those harsher penalties and the requirement to turn in loved ones were removed, I am sure there would be less international concern. If you want to force gays to live in secrecy by threatening them with imprisonment or forced “treatment”, I suppose you have every right to do so — just as your would have the right to prohibit polical debate, live under a dictator or outlaw a particular religion if you chose to.
I would not want to visit or live in such a country and I don’t think our country should financially support such oppression. But that’s your right as a sovereign nation. Go ahead. You pay for it.
Just don’t expect us to. And don’t feel indignant or whine if we don’t . We have a right to think your laws are unjust and and to say so openly. We like our freedoms. If the law passes, I hope other countries will will welcome your refugees.
If it’s truly about protecting kids from abuse (and I think that has always been a scare tactic not the actual concern) you don’t need to specify “homosexuality” to accomplish it. I believe that’s already illegal, right? Let’s be honest here. I get it. You really just want gays to remain in the closet.
Just close down any gay bars or gay organizations, prohibit open displays of same sex affection and limit free speech and free assembly. Forcing gays into unproven “treamtent” will not cure them and the “refined law” won’t rid Uganda of gays, but at least you can pretend that it has.
P.S. — I still think it’s disgusting to show porn in church. I rather see guys with their shirts off in a gay pride parade than see a minister defile the house of God.
Mike,
I am sure if you have been reading my previous commentaries on several topics presented on this blog, you will know by now that I have expressed reservations about the original form of the bill. There are many Ugandans who feel that certain provisions in the bill are crude, undesirable and unduly harsh, even before foreign gay lobbyists began their propaganda campaign from abroad. These reservations will be tackled when parliament starts debating the bill. I am believe that at the end of the parliamentary process, a refined anti-gay law will emerge. I do not expect the refined anti-gay law to have provisions that impose death penalty or require parents/siblings to turn over their loved ones to the police
Oh, but I do. I understand that Western gay lobby groups want us to legalize gay sex, permit gay marriage, gay adoption and allow Kampala to be a theatre of the absurd where a bunch of clownish half dressed people can roam about in the name of Gay Pride March. The Ugandan people will not change their culture and traditions just because a bunch of over-fed people in western countries are upset. Europeans are always upset when America carries out the capital punishment, which is viewed as pure barbarism in Europe. I have not heard that the United States of America will abolish death penalty to keep Europeans happy.
Can you imagine that Jesus would call for such a thing? What Christianity have you been taught? Where did you learn it? Can you imagine Jesus showing porn in church, calling for the death penalty for gays, and imprisonment for others? I can’t.
I am not talking about “gayism” as a human right. I am talking about requiring mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers to turn over to police their loved ones who may be “struggling” with their “same sex attractions” or face imprisonment themselves. Do you favor such a thing?
The teenagers were protesting a bill that calls for the death penalty for some gays, life imprisonment for others and a requirement that people turn in their loved ones to police. You don’t seem to understand that is what people are really upset about. If you don’t want people openly proclaiming their sexuality, why not just limit freedom of speech in your country and force gays to stay in the closet?
These teenagers in Las Vegas should go and spend their time studying their books rather than protesting about a dangerous sexual behaviour they know little about.
Mike Bussee
Thanks for your concern. Solving problems such as poverty, literacy issues, diseases, etc, are works in progress in Uganda. Gayism, which we view as an foreign-driven emergent problem, is also being tackled simultaneously. BTW, we do not recognize gay sex as a human right and we feel justified in our stance. After all, gayism is not part of the 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights ratified by 192 nations, including Uganda. Unless majority of the 192 nations can be convinced to ratify the non-binding Gay Sex Charter (i.e. the French and Dutch-authored “2008 UN Declaration on Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation”), sodomy remains outside the scope of internationally recognised human rights. It doesn’t matter what western governments, media or lobbyists like you have to say about it.
The “right reasons”? Calling for life imprisonment of gays and turning in anyone who doesn’t report one? A minister showing porn in church? Gimme a break. That’s something to be proud of?
How about being proud of focussing on real problems — like poverty, increased literacy, fighting hunger, disease? How about being proud of a strong defense of human rights and a loving and compassionate religious community?
It’s encouraging to hear positive thoughts abt the Uganda AHB in this nation am pursuing my studies from. It’s incredible. This gives me and many others a greater hope that there are millions and millions out there who are actually in support of us.
My word to all the friends on the pages here is that Uganda has developed. Uganda can now make independent decisions, Uganda rejected homosexuality right from the times of King Mwanga. Uganda…Uganda..Uganda a name increasingly becoming familiar with everyone for the right reasons.
These teenagers in Las Vegas should go and spend their time studying their books rather than protesting about a dangerous sexual behaviour they know little about.
The “right reasons”? Calling for life imprisonment of gays and turning in anyone who doesn’t report one? A minister showing porn in church? Gimme a break. That’s something to be proud of?
How about being proud of focussing on real problems — like poverty, increased literacy, fighting hunger, disease? How about being proud of a strong defense of human rights and a loving and compassionate religious community?
It’s encouraging to hear positive thoughts abt the Uganda AHB in this nation am pursuing my studies from. It’s incredible. This gives me and many others a greater hope that there are millions and millions out there who are actually in support of us.
My word to all the friends on the pages here is that Uganda has developed. Uganda can now make independent decisions, Uganda rejected homosexuality right from the times of King Mwanga. Uganda…Uganda..Uganda a name increasingly becoming familiar with everyone for the right reasons.
Thats in Las Vegas…? but in Uganda we are fully in support of our bill. CRCC has nothing to with our bill. Professor, you are harassing them for no reason…
“Dark mission” James??
Christianity is much more than a moral view on one issue .. This is about: how we represent Christ .. How we interact with the world .. How we communicate the love and grace of Christ… and .. What we support with our giving. .. to name a few things .. As I mentioned on another thread here .. We are coming at this issue with different foundational beliefs and concerns.
Warren, congs of your dark mission. Hope you will actually hit your intended target.
Thats in Las Vegas…? but in Uganda we are fully in support of our bill. CRCC has nothing to with our bill. Professor, you are harassing them for no reason…