Canyon Ridge Christian Church has placed their recent statement to me on their website along with the documents provided to them by Martin Ssempa.
We are continuing our conversations with Martin Ssempa about his positions on the controversial issue of the “Anti-Homosexuality” legislation in Uganda. Again, we believe that because of the serious nature of the accusations that have cast him in a light inconsistent with our values, we are obligated to do what the Bible says – go to the person and work the issues through to discern the truth. This is what we have done and are continuing to do.
Martin has given us some documentation to clarify his position as he has represented it to us. We also have included this link to a radio interview where he discusses his position.
Because of the documents he has given us and our interactions with him, we do not believe Martin Ssempa to be the man the media and others have portrayed him to be. He has, with other pastors in Uganda, publicly expressed objection to the death penalty in the Anti-Homosexuality bill and made recommendations to Parliament to remove the death penalty from the bill and reduce the severity of other penalties in it. (Please see attached documents at the bottom of the page.)
We have worked with Martin for several years, making trips to Uganda to see his ministry first hand. He has welcomed and ministered to homosexual people in his church. He has championed the cause of abstinence, sexual purity and faithfulness in marriage that has been instrumental in pushing back the scourge of HIV/AIDS in Uganda. This work has now become a model for other African nations in stemming the tide of the HIV/AIDS pandemic on that continent. This work of saving lives in Africa was the genesis of our partnership in Uganda.
As you know, we have, through recent face to face (March 11, 2010) and video phone conversations, questioned Martin about the controversial issues and asked him to provide additional video and written statements that further clarify his positions. He has asked for and graciously received our counsel and correction and committed to continue pursuing balanced teaching of the grace and truth of God.
As with all of our partners, the evaluation of their ministries is ongoing. Our first move in moments like these is to clarify, then counsel and influence, not abandon.
CRCC Statement – released 6/27/2010
The video explains the history of the church relationship with Ssempa. I will have some reaction to these materials tomorrow. The volume is very low. Unfortunately the pastor in the video repeats the spin regarding bill and has misled his congregation. He blames the media for actually reading the bill. I have to ask why he does not simply post the bill.
Eddie,
I honestly appreciate your response to these questions Dr. Warren has dodged ever since most of us came to these pages. I think this helps understand why Dr. Warren determined to see to it that his agenda comes to pass.
Eddy, as Maazi has pointed out, do we Ugandans really deserve to be monitored and taught how to legislate issues? Don’t we have a right to No to what our culture doesn’t approve and Yes to what it approves? Take an example of the emerging Tigers of Asia, what has USA/Dr. Warren done in regard to homosexuality? I think it’s unfair to try to pressure our leaders into making a decision against their wills and cultures. I wonder why Dr. Warren et al has failed to conquer the Mighty Saudi Arabia, Iran, Malaysia and other nations that bar homosexuality.
The message is simple; Homosexuality has no place in Uganda. Whether the bill is posted or not, homosexuality has got no place in Uganda.
Warren,
I am well travelled. I was partly -educated in the UK (on scholarship) and lived and worked briefly in New York. So trust me when I say that I have actually met open gay sex practitioners in university and later on, in the work place. I admit that these sort of people were known to me as acquaintances rather than friends. I do not hate homosexuals. I do not feel that I need to prove this lack of hatred by supporting the legalization of gay sex across Africa. It is no stereotype that gay lifestyle exposes one to perculiar health risks not normally faced by people who do not follow such lifestyle. This explains why FDA of the United States and NHS of the United Kingdom bar gays from donating blood to hospitals. Uganda has a enough trouble on its hands, we are simply not going to add more…
There is no CREDIBLE scientific evidence to show that certain people are born with same-sex attraction. I am aware that a mish-mash of information have been assembled by a faction of agenda-driven scientists in a desperate bid to validate this sort of lifestyle. I still recall that a few years ago a scientist falsely claimed that he had discovered the mythical gay gene.
Until proven otherwise, I believe that homosexuality is acquired behaviour which is difficult to drop once one is used to it. It is the interest of the Ugandan State that this acquired behaviour is not allowed to spread like bush fire (apologies to Charles Tuhaise). Decriminalizing homosexual acts will breed a future underclass of people who will endlessly and militantly make unreasonable demands (e.g. gay marriage) that have the potential of distorting the structure of our communal society. I believe we can live comfortably with gayism firmly criminalized. After all, in pre-colonial times, we lived well for centuries without anyone claiming to be gay or demanding something called “gay rights”. Even our arab-influenced deviant Buganda King Mwanga II had 16 wives in line with the historic African culture of polygamy.
Maazi
It IS most definitely a stereotype to claim this .. Diseases like AIDS do not discriminate based on the sex of the participants .. nor the method by which the sexual activity is being carried out. AIDS is transmitted through exchange of body fluids .. it doesn’t matter which body fluids. Your very statement shows that you are indeed biased.
Not really. There is always “monitoring”, outcry and threats of withdrawing donor aid whenever any African nation is reviewing its sexual offences law. This is regardless of penalties being considered. Uganda and Zambia faced foreign pressure and outcry, which they defied in order to modify their constitutions to ban gay marriage. This year, Malawi generated self-righteous uproar in the Western world for trying to enforce its laws. For the entire 6-month duration of the court trial against 2 men who tried to procure gay marriage, Malawi faced threats and blackmail. Last year, Burundi prepared a bill criminalizing gay sex conduct with short prison terms ranging from 3 months to 2 years with option of fines. This attracted the fury of the western gay lobbies and their governments. The usual threats of withdrawing donor aid was deployed. But the Burundian Parliament called their bluff and passed the anti-gay legislation. Kenya recently headed off pressure from the UK and US embassies to define marriage in ambiguous language in their new constitution.
Dr. Warren,
I agree with you. Insults do not do anything but civility would actually contribute a lot. I am deeply sorry if actually this what I did. I love civility. I wish you could begin with it also. The day you will embrace civility, I think our dialogues here would be excellent. Your constant attacks on Bahati, Ssempa and our Government ain’t a sign of civility at all. Your determination to ensure that Ssempa and Bahati are cut off from their friends in US is barbaric, it can’t be civil. The way you are pushing CRCC to answer your questions isn’t civil. You have an outright demand on CRCC like these guys owe u a lot. No, come on Dr. That is not the way we deal with matters. Let’s apply civility as you have said. Besides it is always you that has called for such reactions from the public. Your posts as many have said have been very biased, very biased indeed and we can’t see that go on when we can correct the lies peddled.
Why have you refused to appreciate the truth Ssempa and Bahati have reconsidered the death penalty clause??? If you were in support of justice for homos why don’t you give suggestions on how the bill should look like?
Dr. Warren your intentions are not to help or advocate for homos but it is to make our leaders lose face and be denied support. I can’t of feel you are the type that thinks Africa deserves nothing, they are still toddlers and can’t lead themselves. In you is a wolf mascarading in a sheep’s skin.
Why haven’t waited for our parliament to debate this bill and seek public opinion before you launch such ferocious attacks on our leaders. Why haven’t you gotten the simple truth here that Uganda as a nation does not tolerate homosexuality. It is illegal. Why can’t you respect us in that sense?
I love civility because it builds society and it promotes cherished values. Thank you Dr. for reminding me of that value of civility that we all including you ought to build up. Thank you once more.
Though I am not personally an evangelical christian, I strongly identify with the overall aims and aspirations of my fellow Ugandans who happen to be pentecostal christians. I may not agree with all the methods used by Pastor Ssempa, but I strongly agree with him that gayism must be beaten back without compromise. James has already explained clearly that the Anti-Homosexuality Bill is a work in progress and therefore it is unnecessary to post something not yet ready online. I am compelled to agree with him.
Michael Bussee,
Gayism is not a dignified lifestyle. On the contrary, it is a dangerous sexual behaviour that degrades human dignity and exposes one to a galaxy of health risks —- which explains why health authorities in many liberal western countries bar gay sex practitioners from donating their risky blood to hospitals. Your comment about “gays living openly with dignity” is an oxymoron.
Michael Bussee,
Africans are not swayed by false comparisons drawn between a well-funded campaign by powerful foreign lobby groups to impose a debased sexual lifestyle on Africans and the honourable struggle of non-whites and Jews over the centuries to be treated with human dignity.
Just for the record, no enlightened African believes that gay sex practitioners are born with their sexual preferences, especially when there is no CREDIBLE scientific evidence to back such claims up. So there is no basis for comparing race which can be explained with genetics with a deviant sexual behaviour which cannot be rationally attributed to genetics
Eddy,
I can assure you that over 95% of Ugandans are against homosexuality and will support measures to contain this sexual depravity. So public opinion within Uganda is solidly behind the general aspirations of the Bahati Bill. The only people who are bothered are foreigners and their pro-gay views are not so important to ordinary Ugandans.
Warren–
I do not doubt in the slightest that the penalties in the AHB are designed to prohibit homosexuality. As I said just yesterday:
What I question is the presumption that they are still considering death or life imprisonment for consensual adults. I believe they do plan to ‘prohibit’ consensual adult homosexual activity but that they are purposely not telling us what that penalty might be. As I said just yesterday:
It might even be something much like our own sodomy laws that, while they remained on the books, were not enforced. The logic behind this would be that they have not legitimized homosexuality and therefore further distance themselves from ‘the intrusion of gayism’…in the schools, in the push for gay marriage, etc.
Given that I wrote those comments only 24 hours ago, I am disheartened that you should attempt to spin with:
Maazi NCO is correct in his assessment that I do not completely agree with their views. I believe I understand their concerns regarding ‘the intrusion of gayism’ and also of Western values and the Western manner of approach but I’m certainly not thrilled with the approach they’ve taken. Even if they do totally remove the possibility of death or life imprisonment, the fact that they even considered it is very disturbing to say the least. I do not believe in a ‘sin meter mentality’ where one sin somehow outranks another. Whenever we attempt to legislate morallity, we walk a fine line.
I further believe that one of the major problems with the bill is that it is responsive. What I mean by that is that it seems directly related to a perceived agenda of ‘the intrusion of gayism’. In being responsive to that perceived threat, it fell out of context with laws and prohibitions pertaining to sexuality that already exist. I believe strongly that they need to address that slanted focus as they pursue their objectives.
Beyond that, I note that Ugandans speak more bluntly than we do. We are obsessed with political correctness and feel compelled to qualify our words and statements; they don’t. Bluntly they declare ‘Our objective is to prohibit homosexualism in every manner of expression’. We see and hear no qualifiers and thus assume the worst.
And beyond THAT, they are angry at our intrusion and our demands for explanations. They are angry that we feel that we have the right to step in and tell them what to do. They are angry that we have censured CRCC. This anger is increasing the level of blunt speech; it is motivating them to being even more unresponsive than they previously were.
Discussion that ignores these dynamics and the many miscommunications and misinterpretations that they foster will overlook a number of dots as we play ‘connect the dots’. The picture we end up with will be a distortion.
I want to say even more forcefully that I do believe that it is possible that I am wrong…that the picture that you and LynnDavid see is correct. This is my first real exposure to Ugandan culture and thinking. I have learned a number of suprising (and often startling) things about their culture; I would be a fool to presume that I KNOW their heart, mind and approach. BUT I DO see this other possibility. That’s all. I realize that it’s taken a lot of words to explain what I see as a possibility but I’m not trying to argue that I am correct; I’m simply trying to argue that it is a viable possibility…one that I think would be beneficial to add to our ‘processing filters’ as we attempt to sort out inconsistencies.
The question I was trying to ask had to do with assertions early on (when the Bill was first introduced) that existing Ugandan law did not adequately protect the “boychild” from defilement as it did for female children.
What I should have asked was, “If that is the case, why not just correct the flaws in the current laws to address boys and girls equally — regardless of the gender or the victim or perpetrator?”
Eddy,
The death penalty and some other provisions in the Bahati was always controversial from the start. There were several Ugandans who spoke against it, even before busy-body Western gay activists knew that there was such an African country called “Uganda”. It was more than likely that the death penalty would have been dropped regardless of the self-righteous cries of the foreigners. It is not uncommon in Uganda for original bills to come to parliament with very harsh or undesirable provisions and then get watered down as it passes through the legislative process. The Bahati Bill is no exception.
Maazi – At some point, you might allow yourself to really meet and get to know some gay people. Over the years, the stereotypes I held have been thwarted by real life experience with friends and colleagues who are same sex attracted, who live uneventful lives as gay people and simply do not sound like the fearful stereotypes.
Believing something doesn’t make it so. If you really deal with the evidence on sexual orientation, it is messy but there is plenty of credible evidence for biological factors in samesex attraction. Prenatal hormones, brain studies, x-chromosome skewing in moms, animal models, etc., there is evidence for sure. None of that evidence says what anyone ought to do, but to keep saying there is none is to demonstrate how little you know about it.
BTW, Malayia is just one out of several southeast nations that criminalize gayism.
More and more, I am getting the impression that the real intent of this bill is not to “eliminate homosexuality” at all — but to prohibit any public expression or endorsement of it — to frighten gay people back into the closet and keep them there.
More and more, I get the feeling that Ssempa and his supporters don’t really give a damn what consenting gay adults do in private — even though they say they do. They just want gays to be hidden, secretive and to live in fear.
They don’t want gays to be able to live openly or with dignity. Much like many homophobes and religious conservative here in the USA wish that gays would return to the closet, “sin” in private and shut the hell up — just like it was in the “good old days” before Stonewall and the elimination of sodomy laws.
Intelligent people know that you cannot prevent homosexual orientation by making it illegal or “cure it” by forcing people into “treatment” that has no scientific basis. If the real intent is to punish child abusers, there would be no need to mention the sexual orientation of the offender.
If you really want to stop “gayism”, why not just limit freedom of speech and freedom of assembly? Close down any gay bars, make gay rights organizations illegal and arrest people who show public displays of gay affection? That would do the trick and would be much more honest.
All: It’s funny how Dr. Warren reacts when he is put to task. He enjoys the Supreme Judge position. His posts can’t be questioned. No one can challenge him. if you dare challenge him, you an anti homo, pro bahati, Ssempa etc. No way, we are here to correct the wrong image you have always potrayed about our nation Uganda and our Leaders. Tell u what, we will support our very own in promoting the right mandates. Uganda still carries her values and will give it her best to guard them.
Between the 11th May & 25th May I got a chance to meet CRCC pastor who had visited Uganda. Our talk was very helpfull, actually this is when I got to know CRCC encourage their members to acquire copies of the bill and read. They were also encoraged to get constant updates about it from their partners in Uganda. Dr. Warren seems to dispute this truth and wants the whole world to believe his voice. I am sorry atleast I will not.
Dr. Warren here is the problem; u want us to always believe your posts as absolute truth. You never accept any correction. Nowonder your interview with ONN on 19th March was a big shame. You kept being doubled minded earning the nickname “Mischief”. Rem you once supported both the Ex-Gay and Homo associations; you did did this secretelt till you were discovered and later on fired from the ex-gay Assoc. You embarras society with your continued “games”. On the 14th Feb 2005 the Magellan Health Services, Inc. fired you because your views on homosexuality were “potentially controversial” not in “the best interests” of the company. And you have continued with the same character. groove City College is a faithbased Institution that embraces Biblical teachings. You know the Bible’s position on Homosexuality. You are a wolf in a sheep’s skin. I may not say shame upon you but you know where you lie.
If Uganda was technologically advanced, you would see the stand our people have taken concerning homosexuality. By the way why hasn’t homosexuality been legalised in the entire USA?
I was hoping the he might respond to the question as to why it was necessary to have a special law to address homosexual molestation. I should not have used the word “orientation”.
I think any person, Ugandan or not, has a right — no more than that — a moral responsibility to speak out against killing homosexuals. Just as it would be a moral responsbility to speak out against killing Christians, or Jews, or blacks. I know you probably don’t see it that way, James, but I do.
James–
The ‘monitoring’ that you perceive is a direct result of the extremism of the bill in it’s original. It was the death penalty and life imprisonment that captured the focus and the outrage of so many. I suspect that if the death penalty or life imprisonment had not been mentioned, no one would be paying much attention. BUT since those extremes were in the original consideration, the attention of outsiders has been garnered. And, now that Uganda has their attention, folks are monitoring. And since no one from Uganda is speaking specifically to what the ‘prohibition’ will mean in terms of penalty for consensual adults, the focus still runs high and will continue to run high as long as that question remains unanswered.
If you are still uncertain as to my personal position, I accept that as a compliment. None of the topics I can recall have been focussed on ‘what’s your personal position’ and I’ve been trying my darnedest to stick to the topics presented. There was a time, back when these Ugandan discussions started, when conversation would have revealed my personal position (or possibly assisted me in discovering precisely what it was) but, unfortunately, the only response to discussing any aspect of the bill and possible criminalization for any behaviors was a resounding “No compromise; the bill simply must be withdrawn”.
Beyond that, while you pretend to courtesy and respect in your query, I have been advised of your characterization of me based on my involvement here on this blogsite. I can’t recall at the moment whether you billed me as a ‘raging’ or a ‘raving’ homophobe but, truthfully, neither one has me welling up with a spirt of cooperation towards you.
Michael–
Thank you. (I just got word about your impending ‘new arrivals’. I believe I can safely guess where your focus is tonight. Thoughts and prayers for you and yours.)
Maazi – You have me confused. You say:
You first say Eddy’s comments are feeling your pulse. However, Eddy is the one who seems to doubt that the penalties in the AHB are aimed at prohibiting homosexuality.
All those causes might be for someone else. I just think it is tragic and wrong for the name of Christ to be invoked as justification to use the coercive power of the state to take life or liberty due to consensual same-sex intimacy.
LynnDavid–
My eyes ARE open. I’m open to your possibility AND mine.
From your comment, it would appear that you are only open to yours.
LOL. “Open your eyes” feels like deja-vu. That was pretty much the type of response I got when I suggested that we were jumping to conclusions re the beheading victim.
To Eddy:
Your posts above are quite matured and highly nuanced. It seems you are able to feel our pulse (whether you agree with our views is another question.)
To all Americans on this blog:
I am surprised that there some commentators who do not know that we are out to prohibit homosexuality, regardless of whether it is consensual.
Let me clear up any misunderstanding— Ugandans are out to continue their campaign to further push gayism away from the public sphere. Uganda is our country and we have right to decide what will happen within it. Those who don’t have to live in our country, do not need to bother us with their shenanigans. Many of you American gay activists will probably use your time better if you focus on the following issues outside Uganda:
( a ) Getting your FDA to lift the ban on gays donating their risky blood to American hospitals. You can extend that fight to Britain’s National Health Service (NHS).
( b ) Concentrate on overturning California’s proposition 8 and the ban on gay marriage in 31 states in the USA. You can campaign to make gay studies compulsory for American children in all 50 USA states.
( c ) Force your government to ban Saudi Arabia oil from US markets until they strike down death penalty by hanging for gay acts. Place trade sanctions on Singapore, UAE, Kuwait, Oman and Malaysia until they decriminalize homosexuality and promptly agree to institute gay marriage.
( d ) Also plead with Obama administration to downgrade diplomatic relations with Lithuania until the east european nation changes its constitution and laws that bans gay marriage and the promotion of “gay propaganda” .
Eddy – The UJCC recommendations were not made to me so your personalizing this to me is inappropriate. They were made to Parliament. Martin Ssempa offered them to CRCC as an indication that he no longer supports the death penalty, but he did not mention anything about prison. If they followed your logic – don’t say what we recommend, because it will only cause more debate – then they would not have made any recommendations at all.
In any case, I am done with this. Believe what you think makes sense.
Understood. I will not ask again.
Eddy: Do you support some manner of criminalization for consensual, homosexual acts between adults in private? If so, do you support some sort of mandatory therapy for offenders?
After all these months, I am still unclear on your personal position. I apologize if you have stated your position previously and I do not want to assume that I know where you stand.
I personalized to you since you referred me to Tuhaise’s comments which he addressed to you.
I am glad to be done with this also. As I’ve already said, there are several possible conclusions we can draw. My concern was that we weren’t even considering the possibility that I see is at least as plausible as the others.
You may not see yourself as a main-player but you are…and have been for some time. The battlefield for this particular war has been primarily on the internet…while some communications obviously take place in the physical world, the rallying of troops and the calls to action have been primarily via blogs and, you, whether you believe it or not, have been more than a foot soldier. And, I believe you’ve also done some good. The reduced penalties proposed in the ‘recommendations’ are, I believe, in direct response to ‘outside pressure’. When the bill is finally discussed, while they might not defer to outside opinions and recommendations–they will certainly have them in mind and those opinions WILL have some degree of impact.
Eddy et al,
I find it quite funny that you guys are busy exchanging words over whether UJCC said this or said that. Do you guys not know how parliamentary process works? UJCC is not the parliament of Uganda. It is just an organisation within Uganda supporting a Private Member’s Bill. During parliamentary hearings, ordinary Ugandans and local pressure groups will have the chance to voice their views about the Bahati Bill. Some of the provisions in the Bahati Bill will probably be modified or deleted. I personally do not accept some provisions— especially the issue of so-called “same-sex touching”. In most African societies, it is common for men to hold hands as a sign of platonic friendship (not homosexual relations). So the original bill is in danger of inadvertently criminalizing innocent behaviour which is acceptable to our people. In fact, what is often missed in all your arguments is that UJCC pronouncement against the death penalty provision is probably a compromise position reached between some evangelicals who supported death penalty and Catholics and Anglicans that opposed that penalty. There is still a plethora of changes and compromises to be made before the Bill reaches the stage of becoming law. It is quite possible that the revised Bahati Bill at the end of the parliamentary process may be barely recognisable when compared to its original version. It is also quite possible that the original version of the Bahati Bill may emerge from the parliamentary process with a modest amount of changes. In fact, anything is possible, except the wish of the Euro-American Gay Lobby to force the scrapping of future plans to enact stronger legislation against gayism.
Dr. Warren,
America must realise that Uganda is a sovereign nation with cultures and traditions. The practises promoted in New York may not necessarily be the ones that must be promoted here in Uganda. You oftenly misdirect us by attacking Ssempa and his supporters instead of taking us to real issue; Homosexuality. Why can’t we discuss ways of eliminating this vice in Uganda like how you are trying to “help” us eliminate poverty/diseases-for homosexuality is like it. You frequently go personal to whip up hatred for Uganda, Ssempa, Bahati and others. I remembered the sayings of a certain Great African Leader that” if They (opponents) can’t get you in other means,then they will come for you yourself”. This is what you have done exactly to these guys. Your posts are so biased, they are one way. they are intended to destroy their wonderful contributions in histroy. Canyon Ridge has actually put it right that Ssempa has been MISREPRESENTED. And so has Bahati and others. There is no objectivity here. Several times I have met these guys on the issue of Anti Gay Bill and their response is consistent; No Killing Homos. Much us other Ugandans may probably want that Bahati and Company have turned down that. Actually in all their presentations to parliament and the Cabinet, they consistently maintained that. problem is here, you Dr. Warren went ahead and labelled Ssempa and bahati as Kill-the-Gay guys. Your actions were not really representative of the respect you command in the academic world. There is completely no objectivity in your posts, absolutely nothing. It is wise if you rerouted us back to the real conversation.
Well Eddy .. your response does not surprise me. I have plenty of things I could clog up this particular blogpost with. And you might agree or disagree with the multiple things I would bring up. But that is not the topic at hand. I’ve been down this road before and I am simply sharing my own painful journey in discovering that I and many others have not been told the full truth by Christian political leaders. If Dr. Throckmorton wants me to share my research in the future he can ask me and we will see what works out. But if I did that now it would bring multiple other examples to the table which is not what this post is about.
There are two issues I see generally at work here. The first is that .. as Dr Throckmorton has demonstrated .. this church / pastor has not been totally forthcoming with its members. The second is that where they have been forthcoming the congregation is not (presumably) as concerned as some others are who are participating on this blog. This gets back to a point I made earlier that in much of the Christian world .. if its anti-gay .. its ok. This is indeed the attitude I had for many years. While my moral postion has not changed … my concerns about my own attitude and the way in which we interact with the world has changed. When we are happy to incarcerate / civily punish others for what we believe are sexual sins but take a much gentler track with our own sins .. there is something wrong. When leaders see fit to keep information from their congregations there is something wrong. We all don’t agree on this blog .. but at least the references are here for us to read. We are given the raw material in order to make our own conclusions. This is what church people need to know as well .. They need to know that things are not as simple as they have been led to believe. And they need to be equiped with facts and references so that they can come to their own conclusions as to whether they should financially or otherwise supporting a minister or political view.
Two things are needed here..
Leaders that give their people full information so they can form their own conclusions.
A change of heart and attitude so that we treat others as we would want to be treated (to give the same grace to others that we give to ourselves).
Folks, finally the voices from Uganda are springing up. Maazi and Edward am back to these pages, I took off time to finish up my academic thesis.
Now, it’s alarming how Dr. Warren deliberately keeps blackmailing Ssempa. You realise that he’s the central source from which all the other homo websites draw their information from however inaccurate it is eg “case of behaded homosexual”. Ssempa time and again has clearly expressed his opposition to the death penalty. Analysis of Dr. Warren’s posts shows that he’s not after fighting for homos in Uganda but ensuring that Ssempa’s support wherever is cut off completely. Unfortunately this may never happen because Ssempa is increasingly gaining support and popularity in Uganda and overseas.
One thing must be corrected. Before Scot Lively came to Uganda, there were numerous demonstrations against homos. You remember, Ugandans demonstrated against this vice in 2007 when we hosted CHOGM. Before this there were anti homo campaigns in the North and Eastern parts of the country especially in schools. Atleast I happened to have ever attended a few of them. While growing our elders passed on some traditions to us that are valuable and have helped build up our societies and homosexuality was one of the vices that was never mentioned of even. No one could do that. So when we Ugandans rise to speak do not demonise us as gay killers. No we are not. We speak what our cultures and consciences appreciate. We only want to eliminate unacceptable pest trying to chew up our cherised values. It’s like if your home is attacked by bugs you fumigate the whole place to ensure that no bag remains.
We are not Gay Killers, we only can not allow the disease in our nation Uganda.
Thank you.
James,
I see no need to email Ssempsa about anything. I have heard enough of his rhetoric from multiple sources. I am sure Pastor Ssempsa has done a lot of good over the years. Unfortunately I see in him what I have seen in many fellow Christians (including myself at one time).. an incredible amount of self-righteousness when it comes to homosexuality issues. For example .. Since heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by at least 10 to 1 and more likely 20 to 1 or higher it would seem to make more sense to focus on heterosexual sins with the same or greater vigor. But that is not what is happening .. neither here nor from other Christian leaders. Instead it is easier to preach against sins that straight Christians will never do. And it is easier to support overboard legislation against sins that straight Christians will never do. This is about Christians misrepresenting Christ. This is about Christans being self righteous. This is about Christians discerning whether they should suppoprt or not support other Christans in the work they are doing. It has nothing to do with some alleged Euro-American propoganda (your very statement on this is propoganda .. creating some phony enemy without dealing with the questions at hand)
I do acknowledge that Chrisian missionaries in the past made a mess of things in Africa. I understand to some degree why any American or European comments on what a soverign nation in Africa is doing would be offensive. But beyond the mistakes of the past .. it is a present reality that nations that want to be part of the international community often need to meet certain conditions or human rights stipulations if they want to benefit from that community. That is not propoganda .. that is simple reality. I have nothing to do with how other countries are responding to Uganda and this bill. I have no control over that. However as a Christian I am concerned with what Pastor Ssempsa is doing.
I notice that like all the others you also are afraid of posting the actual bill and actually saying what it means. I am still waiting.
I’m obviously missing something but I’m not sure what. When I need to reference the bill, I can come to Warren’s site and find his link to the bill. Why the repeated challenges for James to post the bill? Are we suggesting that James has a version that differs from Warren’s? If not, why do we need him to post a copy of something we already have access to?
PS – James, Martin Ssempa told Michael Brown on the radio on March 11 that he would post a copy of the bill and to date he has not done so. Dave is correct, it is the people who oppose the bill who post it, and those who favor it, here and there who do not.
James – Where do you find this:
RE: Pasikali – I said a blog reported that he had been killed which may have had something to do with his sexuality and then when it became clear that it was a false report, I reported that as well. I am sorry for passing along what turned out to be a false report but I didn’t make the false report and I quickly reported what I learned. You might ask Rev. Ssempa to do the same thing when it comes to his reports that Uganda law doesn’t cover the boy child.
In fact, in the situation you describe, you, me, the law and all gay groups in your country agree that a crime was committed. The law you have now covers that situation and if it is not being prosecuted it is the fault of the authorities not the law. All gay groups in your country agree that child molesters should be strongly punished. You are raising a controversy where there isn’t one.
RE: The youth in the Missionaries of Hate, kindly provide the contacts where I can verify your statements. I want to check them with the documentarians. It certainly is possible that they made a mistake in identifying the youth, but again I only reported what I was told. If you have additional information, as always I will correct any false report.
Kankaka Edward Nelson, I am not an evangelical christian, but I am Ugandan. I agree that our culture should be preserved from unwanted western influences. Propaganda is a key asset of the Euro-American Gay Lobby. How do you think they were able to acquire so much support in the West and grow so powerful? How did they convince many people in the West that “gays were born that way ” even though there isn’t a shred of CREDIBLE scientific evidence to back that up? All we Ugandans need to do is remain steadfast and refuse to be intimidated—Its as simple as that !!
Reading what the UJCC wrote is too much of a stretch for you? The UJCC said that for pedophilia, rape of someone who cannot give consent (disabled or drugged), or if the perpetrator was an authority figure or HIV poz (aka “aggravated homosexuality”) that:
They said nothing about changing the life imprisonment sentencing for two adults engaging in consensual sexual acts. So, two consensual males have sex and are discovered. One who is HIV neg goes to prison for life; the other who is HIV poz gets sentenced to a religious rehab for 20 years. That is how dumb some of the commentary out of Uganda has been on this bill. (At least the Anglican and Catholic head bishops of Uganda have been smarter, saying that the bill should be thrown out).
And just what is a faith-based rehab that goes on for 20 years that a government with religious freedom agrees to? Sounds more like government sponsored and supported (with government funds) slavery to me, with Ssempa, Oyet, and others like them getting the benefits of such incarceration.
…
Eddy,
Perhaps you are not familiar with this but I have seen constantly and consistently that the Christians that raise the most ire agains gay and lesbian people politically are typically loath to actually post real and true information. Instead they make a lot of inuendo and claims that are not backed up with facts.
James has claimed that Dr. Throckmorton has put up false information .. I join Dr. Throckmorton in asking James to show us the false information. James is telling me I should do research elsewhere and that I am not getting the true story .. And again .. I say .. Show me this other alleged information. Likewise with this bill .. many sources have lied about whats in the bill and those same sources have refused to post the bill. I am saying to James and any other visiting Ugandans to this site .. Post the bill HERE and explain it to me if I have it wrong. Additionally I do not want to hear excuses that the bill is in committee and we don’t know what it will look like yet in its final form. The bill being in committee has not stopped Pastor Ssempsa from supporting this bill in both its original “death penalty” version and the proposed alternative version that Canyon Ridge says they talked to him about. Again show me the bill .. show me what Ssempsa is saying should be changed and explain to me why these incredible penalties are justifiable.
I am still waiting…….
Eddy – Please read the most recent post and see all of the recommendations from the UJCC. The Canyon Ridge leaders only gave their people the first page and did not give them a copy of the bill. The recommendations said nothing about the life in prison for gay touching. Apparently CRCC does not want their people to see that or else they would have produced sufficient documents to allow them to make an informed opinion. I have asked them why these aspects were not included with no reply.
Dave,
that is the place you always run to–“post the bill on line”. We donot fear to post the Bill on line. The issue is this Parliament has taken it up and it is in discussion. A bill is not law and may not necessarily end up in the way it was written. You ought to know that many adjustments can be made on any bill presented to the parliament. It’s wise to wait for parliament to present a report on it before you conclude.
The problem with you is that you never carry out an independent research on these issues. You heavily rely on Dr. Warren’s writings which have been very inaccurate and biased. I advice that you email ssempa or Bahati and you hear their real stand on these issues as opposed to basing your arguments on biased information.
Euro-American propaganda has no place in Africa.
Eddy – I am not sure what you mean by blog fodder. I want to make it clear that the email from Martin Ssempa and Charles Tuhaise were all on the record. They knew because I told them that I was a columnist and was contacting them to write about the AHB.
I don’t know if Pastor Odor deliberately misled his congregation but unless you can show differently, I can see no other result. If they only hear and read what the leadership provided, then the congregation does not have all the facts about the basics. They do not know what the bill really is about nor do they really know the level of involvement of the man they are giving money to. If what Odor said in his sermon introduction was true, then I would not have written more than a couple of posts on the whole issue. Why would anyone oppose making the law equal for the boy child?
Your belief in option 1 is astounding given what you have read here over the last several months. Read again what Charles Tuhaise said in the latest post. He describes option 2. They are out to prohibit homosexuality. The bill says so and the people behind it say so.
Dave,
if it makes you feel better, then let me inform you that gayism was an abomination and an aberration in most of Africa even before European christian missionaries showed up. The British act of enacting the original anti-gay penal code does not negate the fact that gayism was already frowned upon in our various unwritten customary laws that enshrine our cultures and traditions. I know that my truthful commentary contravenes the euro-american propaganda theme,which has some how managed to use the Arab-influenced deviant behaviour of King Mwanga II to claim that Ugandans were somehow gay sex lovers before european missionaries arrived.
I think the power and influence of missionaries are often exaggerated. If they were that powerful, how come polygamy is legal — but not gayism —even in predominantly christian african nations. Beyond Africa, in any nation where customs and traditions are upheld, gayism is usually frowned upon. There are non-christian/non-muslim nations where gayism is illegal by law or defacto legal, but not socially acceptable. So you need to drop your patronizing comments about Africans being brainwashed robots.
James – Please point out inaccuracies in what I have written. I hope Dave does email Ssempa and Bahati. I have also emailed them and have had several email conversations with Ssempa. He sent me the information regarding his response to Rick Warren and other information. I have never not put up anything he has sent to me. Please point out what is false.
Africans lets all play our role in the fight against homosexuality.
It is widely considered that homosexuality is unheard of in Africa, so let us not leave the stuggle to the ssempas of this world bur we too can tell the rest of the world the truth that homosexuality is not acceptable here.
Ssempa has tried his level best to ensure that sanity prevails in our land and this is not because he gets support from CRCC but bse it is his mandate as a concerned citizen to ensure that our laws and customs are upheld. Infact homosexuality is illegal under the Ugandan constitution yet this practice is still freely practiced and no body has ever been killed or arrested by SSempa.
Ssempa shd go on and continue to preach the msg of salvation and repentence and the state and law enforcers shd also play their part in upholding the laws and values of the land.
KEN – Martin Ssempa recommended the removal of the death sentence in late December after he fully supported it in October. What changed from October to December?
You may think 20 years in a rehab facility is enlightened but I do not. Canyon Ridge failed to tell its people that they are donating money to support a part-time campaigner for harsher sentences than currently exist for lesser crimes.
Perhaps the several gentlemen reporting from Uganda on this thread would be willing to actually post the Antihomosexuality Bill here and explain it to us line by line. I doubt you will. For I have noticed that no one that supports the bill is willing to post the bill. So .. we’ll see what happens.
Rather dissappointing that they are not relying on sources other than what Ssempsa tells them. Their attitude is representative of an attitude I am seeing in much of Christianity …. Re: if its anti-gay .. its OK
Similar to what Lynn David said above.. are they in favor of criminalizing ALL sexual activity ouside of marriage .. or just certain activities that they will never do?
It is amazing how the western media is so hysterical and so infected with gross misrepresentation of African values, the church and pastors.
I am a witness of Martin ssempa’s passionate commitment to change of lives. We down here in Uganda know the truth and what Canyon ridge says is true.
Ssempa has been wrongly coined a homo killer. The truth is that he defends african values and the truth of the bible. He calls homos to repentance. We have some former homosexuals and lesbians in our church whose lives have been transformed. None has been killed. They have been told the plain truth and reached out to in love unto repentance and being what God meant them to be.
Martin Ssempa clearly recommended the emission of the proposed death sentence and lighter punishment, but mantaining the stand that sodomy is evil.
The state has its duty to award justice, the church to call people unto repentance, and culture to maintain our handed-down beliefs. This creates continuity.
The west is hiding under human rights to push sodomy down our throats and bring a terrible curse in our land.
I will not call upon you all to be fair coz u may not, but i mantain that you are completely wrong in demonizing ssempa martin. WE KNOW THE TRUTH!
Forget the obvious, the homosexuality… does Canyon Ridge Christian Church think that all sexual practice outside of marriage and outside of that singular conjoined act which would possibly lead to a pregnancy should be outlawed by countries? This seems to me to be what they are promoting via Ssempa. If so are they then also against the use of condoms, birth control pills, and other preventatives for pregnancy? Are they seeking to promote such be included in the several states’ civil codes?
But then the main point is that no one at CRCC sees the sneering, leering, the hate-filled speech that Ssempa has effected over the last couple of years.
I agree that public opinion is likely ‘solidly behind the general aspirations’ of the bill. But there’s a big difference between ‘general aspirations’ and ‘specific penalties’.
Warren–
I don’t know how to say this any clearer either: they made a very clear statement re a 20 year penalty for ‘aggravated homosexuality’ and further seemed to indicate that the other behaviors didn’t fit in with abuse of a child or the handicapped. They’ve said all along that their primary purpose was to ‘protect the children’. So, they spoke predominantly to the most serious offense and said that even it didn’t warrant death or life imprisonment. You even suggested that it seemed illogical that they would suggest reduced penalties for these more exaggerated offenses while leaving ‘life’ on the table for homosexual touching. Why would you rather believe that they are still considering ‘life’ for that offense rather than they omitted speaking to it because it wasn’t in the center of their radar?
Warren–
So, the scenario that you fear (or suspect) is that they want to enact a law that penalizes the homosexual abuse of a child or handicapped person with 20 years in a treatment facility but penalize homosexual touching with life imprisonment? And that they are jaded enough to try to slip that one past everybody?
Sorry, that’s too much of a stretch for me.
Dave–
My question was far more simple than your convoluted answer merits. Why are we asking James to produce a copy of the bill? I’ve read his comments here and he doesn’t seem to be saying that people are lying about what the bill actually says. He’s saying that Ssempa has publicly stated that he does not favor the death penalty.
From one of the links found at the Canyon Ridge website (follow Warren’s first link in the main topic):
Although I acknowledge that this statement doesn’t answer all of our burning questions, it does seem apparent that 1) even for the offense of ‘aggravated homosexuality’, they now suggest a penalty of 20 years rather than death. 2) they are aware that ‘aggravated homosexuality’ is being used in a manner that is too inclusive…they see a distinction between those who abuse children or the handicapped and those who have HIV/AIDS, abuse authority or are repeat offenders. 3) They ask that those latter cases be interpreted differently when the bill is actually discussed.
Of Warren’s objections, the one I remember being brought up most often is the case of the ‘repeat offender’. Warren is correct when he says that the bill, as written, makes no distinction. I am encouraged by the knowledge that a distinction has been recognized and that, even before formal discussion has begun, has been addressed in the recommendation that I quoted from above.
I often wonder if we aren’t the victims of political mish-mash. We hear with our American ears that Ssempa ‘still supports the anti-homosexuality bill’. (Some even hear that as ‘Ssempa still supports the kill the gays bill’.) But I hear that in the same way that I hear much of our American political rhetoric, especially in campaign time. “So and so voted against (you name the cause or bill) umpteen times.” And no mention of the fact that it was some objectionable ‘rider’ that swung their vote to ‘against’. Or we hear that ‘so and so supports THE WAR’ and later discover that they’ve spoken out against THE WAR but voted in favor of equipping the troops sufficiently while we are still engaged. I suspect that Ssempa is essentially FOR the bill…he believes that legislation ought to be in place to restrict the advancement of homosexuality in his country BUT he recognizes that the bill has problems both in its wording and in the extremity of the penalties. I don’t know this to be absolutely true but it’s what I surmise from the various sources that I’ve read.
BTW: I found this statement to be absolutely ‘loaded’.
My questions went directly to the requests that were being made of James. Am I to presume that you are referring to him in this statement? Do you perceive him to be raising ‘ire against gay and lesbian people politically’ in his comments here? If you weren’t speaking specifically of James, doesn’t beginning your response to my questions in this way qualify as ‘innuendo’?
PS – Eddy – Please note that the purpose of the bill is to prohibit all same-sex activity. They led with this. I assume they mean it.
Dave: No need to go into other issues further. I think CRCC is a good case in point.
Eddy: The UJCC did not recommend any change to the bill in Section 2. It must be ok. If they wanted changes in it, they did not say so. I cannot spell it out any clearer.
Warren–
I’ve read the complete recommendations in your newest post;
in what part of the recommendations do you find support for ‘life imprisonment for same sex touching’?
Dave–
Not playing games with your words, Dave, just trying to show you what’s clearly in them. And I share your frustration, I try to get people to talk in terms of what’s concrete and only seem to get innuendo in response. You say:
but you aren’t being concrete yourself. Please consider all the abstractions in your statement to me:
There isn’t a single documented fact in that entire quote. No names of leaders, no reference to how many you researched, how long you researched or how you researched. Nothing by which to assess your level of possible bias. No consideration for possible misinterpretation. The assessment of ‘insanity around this bill’..the ‘evasiveness’. While they sound like specific charges, you don’t cite what’s insane or what ‘s evasive. Don’t get me wrong…I do understand completely why you feel the other side is like this; I’m simply trying to point out that your team is doing it too and I don’t see the point in abstract finger-pointing. It doesn’t seem to be enhancing the discussion.
Maazi … this is not proproganda .. this is Christianity and its beliefs… I mentioned this to help you to realize that we are coming into this discussion with different foundational beliefs.
What you listed … the distortion of culture .. dangerous political movement and so forth .. simply is not the case .. There are countries such as Canada who have had gay marriage on the books for years who do not have any of this social fallout you are implying will happen. In Canada ..per straight folks I know that live there …. life goes on .. straight marriages go on .. society goes on .. youth are not being recruited .. things have not changed.
Dave,
Gayism is a not just a vice, it is also a dangerous quasi-political movement that has an agenda to challenge and change the social order of things, distort local culture, distort the meaning of marriage/family and cause upheaval our solidarity-based communal society. It is foolish propaganda to equate this movement with adultery or other vices such as lying.
Maazi … this is not proproganda .. this is Christianity and its beliefs… I mentioned this to help you to realize that we are coming into this discussion with different foundational beliefs.
What you listed … the distortion of culture .. dangerous political movement and so forth .. simply is not the case .. There are countries such as Canada who have had gay marriage on the books for years who do not have any of this social fallout you are implying will happen. In Canada ..per straight folks I know that live there …. life goes on .. straight marriages go on .. society goes on .. youth are not being recruited .. things have not changed.
Note to Maazi .. Sorry .. I don’t buy the no scape goat answer…. unless your laws have similar punishments for those who fornicate or committ adultery. I am not sure if you are a Christian or not (forgive me if I missed this) but many Christians regard all such activity as sinful…. thus when activity one is exalted above the other through excess penalty … it really reeks of what we would call self righteousness .. or .. scape-goating .. making a big deal about the sins of others while ignoring our own sins in this area ..
Dave,
Gayism is a not just a vice, it is also a dangerous quasi-political movement that has an agenda to challenge and change the social order of things, distort local culture, distort the meaning of marriage/family and cause upheaval our solidarity-based communal society. It is foolish propaganda to equate this movement with adultery or other vices such as lying.
Note to Maazi .. Sorry .. I don’t buy the no scape goat answer…. unless your laws have similar punishments for those who fornicate or committ adultery. I am not sure if you are a Christian or not (forgive me if I missed this) but many Christians regard all such activity as sinful…. thus when activity one is exalted above the other through excess penalty … it really reeks of what we would call self righteousness .. or .. scape-goating .. making a big deal about the sins of others while ignoring our own sins in this area ..
Dave,
Our opposition to gayism is not merely restricted to health issues, there are also social and cultural issues which we are concerned with as well. The issue of “scape-goating” does not even arise in the first place since we do not recognize gay sex practitioners as a distinct group similar to real ethnic, racial and socio-economic communities. Any individual Ugandan who engages in sexual behaviour contrary to the law has an equal chance of heading to jail. The law does not target or scape-goat any recognized group or community of people in Uganda.
Warren,
Ha, Ha, Ha. You know fully well that the FDA ban is despised by gay lobbyists who claim that it undermines the quest for what they claim is “equality”. What the FDA ban and similar ban in other Western nations indicates is that the liberal West draws the line when gayism poses a potential threat to public health.
Warren,
I never claimed that gayism is the driving component of the AIDS scourge in parts of Africa. I believe that the HIV infection is predominantly a “heterosexual” thing. I also believe that decriminalizing gayism and telling our male youths that it is okay to be gay will result in a future exponential rise in AIDS and other perculiar health problems that affect people that engage in sodomy (e.g. rectal gonorrhea and fecal incontinence). The rudimentary Ugandan health care system is not equipped to deal with such a thing. Western NGOs that claim that decriminalization will bring about a floodgate of gay sex lovers jumping out of some closet to embrace medicare, thereby reducing AIDS infections in Africa, are lying brazenly. There are lots of countries in the world (including the west) where gay sex is legal, but socially unacceptable and many gays do not come out at all.
Dave,
Our opposition to gayism is not merely restricted to health issues, there are also social and cultural issues which we are concerned with as well. The issue of “scape-goating” does not even arise in the first place since we do not recognize gay sex practitioners as a distinct group similar to real ethnic, racial and socio-economic communities. Any individual Ugandan who engages in sexual behaviour contrary to the law has an equal chance of heading to jail. The law does not target or scape-goat any recognized group or community of people in Uganda.
Warren,
Ha, Ha, Ha. You know fully well that the FDA ban is despised by gay lobbyists who claim that it undermines the quest for what they claim is “equality”. What the FDA ban and similar ban in other Western nations indicates is that the liberal West draws the line when gayism poses a potential threat to public health.
Warren,
I never claimed that gayism is the driving component of the AIDS scourge in parts of Africa. I believe that the HIV infection is predominantly a “heterosexual” thing. I also believe that decriminalizing gayism and telling our male youths that it is okay to be gay will result in a future exponential rise in AIDS and other perculiar health problems that affect people that engage in sodomy (e.g. rectal gonorrhea and fecal incontinence). The rudimentary Ugandan health care system is not equipped to deal with such a thing. Western NGOs that claim that decriminalization will bring about a floodgate of gay sex lovers jumping out of some closet to embrace medicare, thereby reducing AIDS infections in Africa, are lying brazenly. There are lots of countries in the world (including the west) where gay sex is legal, but socially unacceptable and many gays do not come out at all.
Maazi:
I will just concur with what Warren said.
Additionally … The antihomosexuality bill makes gays and gay sex a scapegoat for what is largely a heterosexual problem.. It gives people the illusion that they are accomplishying something positive against AIDS when in reality they are ignoring a major source of the problem
Maazi – You’re an educated guy, you know that the driver of HIV in Africa and most of the world outside the US is heterosexual promiscuity. The FDA ban is an effort to address the nature of the problem here and is not a commentary on same-sex relations in general.
Eddy,
Well the foreign wheel seems to be speeding blindly down the windy road since the street lamps went off following the withdrawal of electric supply to it by the Ugandan people. It is likely that the blinded wheel will crash through the guide railings and fall off a cliff before a resolution is passed by Ugandan parliament to restore electricity to the street lamps.
Dave,
Why not use your commentary above to convince FDA and a host of other western health authorities to stop “discriminating” against gay sex practitioners?
Maazi
It IS most definitely a stereotype to claim this .. Diseases like AIDS do not discriminate based on the sex of the participants .. nor the method by which the sexual activity is being carried out. AIDS is transmitted through exchange of body fluids .. it doesn’t matter which body fluids. Your very statement shows that you are indeed biased.
Maazi:
I will just concur with what Warren said.
Additionally … The antihomosexuality bill makes gays and gay sex a scapegoat for what is largely a heterosexual problem.. It gives people the illusion that they are accomplishying something positive against AIDS when in reality they are ignoring a major source of the problem
Maazi – You’re an educated guy, you know that the driver of HIV in Africa and most of the world outside the US is heterosexual promiscuity. The FDA ban is an effort to address the nature of the problem here and is not a commentary on same-sex relations in general.
Eddy,
Well the foreign wheel seems to be speeding blindly down the windy road since the street lamps went off following the withdrawal of electric supply to it by the Ugandan people. It is likely that the blinded wheel will crash through the guide railings and fall off a cliff before a resolution is passed by Ugandan parliament to restore electricity to the street lamps.
Dave,
Why not use your commentary above to convince FDA and a host of other western health authorities to stop “discriminating” against gay sex practitioners?
Sorry, Maazi, I don’t buy that. The response to this particular situation has been far and above more extensive…more pervasive…and it WAS due to the extreme penaltes of life imprisonment or death.
And, there’s something you’re missing. I am NOT arguing. I am simply stating what is. James questioned why many felt the need to monitor this bill and I explained why…why the monitoring started and why it won’t stop. Your rhetoric won’t change that. The wheels are in motion and, I can guarantee you that they will not stop or slow down. We can curse the wheel. We can explain how we wish the wheel didn’t work like that. We can declare that the wheel has no right to behave like that. But it won’t stop the wheel from turning. The threats of death or life imprisonment set the wheel in motion and it WILL keep on turning until those questions are resolved.
You’ve tried to convey that it doesn’t matter what we think or what we say but I’m certain that it does matter. If it really didn’t matter, you wouldn’t be blogging here. It’s as simple as that. You’ve engaged in these conversations because they mattered enough to come to your attention AND you felt a need to impact the conversations. That suggests that in some small way at least, these opinions DO matter.
Warren,
I am well travelled. I was partly -educated in the UK (on scholarship) and lived and worked briefly in New York. So trust me when I say that I have actually met open gay sex practitioners in university and later on, in the work place. I admit that these sort of people were known to me as acquaintances rather than friends. I do not hate homosexuals. I do not feel that I need to prove this lack of hatred by supporting the legalization of gay sex across Africa. It is no stereotype that gay lifestyle exposes one to perculiar health risks not normally faced by people who do not follow such lifestyle. This explains why FDA of the United States and NHS of the United Kingdom bar gays from donating blood to hospitals. Uganda has a enough trouble on its hands, we are simply not going to add more…
There is no CREDIBLE scientific evidence to show that certain people are born with same-sex attraction. I am aware that a mish-mash of information have been assembled by a faction of agenda-driven scientists in a desperate bid to validate this sort of lifestyle. I still recall that a few years ago a scientist falsely claimed that he had discovered the mythical gay gene.
Until proven otherwise, I believe that homosexuality is acquired behaviour which is difficult to drop once one is used to it. It is the interest of the Ugandan State that this acquired behaviour is not allowed to spread like bush fire (apologies to Charles Tuhaise). Decriminalizing homosexual acts will breed a future underclass of people who will endlessly and militantly make unreasonable demands (e.g. gay marriage) that have the potential of distorting the structure of our communal society. I believe we can live comfortably with gayism firmly criminalized. After all, in pre-colonial times, we lived well for centuries without anyone claiming to be gay or demanding something called “gay rights”. Even our arab-influenced deviant Buganda King Mwanga II had 16 wives in line with the historic African culture of polygamy.
Not really. There is always “monitoring”, outcry and threats of withdrawing donor aid whenever any African nation is reviewing its sexual offences law. This is regardless of penalties being considered. Uganda and Zambia faced foreign pressure and outcry, which they defied in order to modify their constitutions to ban gay marriage. This year, Malawi generated self-righteous uproar in the Western world for trying to enforce its laws. For the entire 6-month duration of the court trial against 2 men who tried to procure gay marriage, Malawi faced threats and blackmail. Last year, Burundi prepared a bill criminalizing gay sex conduct with short prison terms ranging from 3 months to 2 years with option of fines. This attracted the fury of the western gay lobbies and their governments. The usual threats of withdrawing donor aid was deployed. But the Burundian Parliament called their bluff and passed the anti-gay legislation. Kenya recently headed off pressure from the UK and US embassies to define marriage in ambiguous language in their new constitution.
Maazi – At some point, you might allow yourself to really meet and get to know some gay people. Over the years, the stereotypes I held have been thwarted by real life experience with friends and colleagues who are same sex attracted, who live uneventful lives as gay people and simply do not sound like the fearful stereotypes.
Believing something doesn’t make it so. If you really deal with the evidence on sexual orientation, it is messy but there is plenty of credible evidence for biological factors in samesex attraction. Prenatal hormones, brain studies, x-chromosome skewing in moms, animal models, etc., there is evidence for sure. None of that evidence says what anyone ought to do, but to keep saying there is none is to demonstrate how little you know about it.
Michael Bussee,
Gayism is not a dignified lifestyle. On the contrary, it is a dangerous sexual behaviour that degrades human dignity and exposes one to a galaxy of health risks —- which explains why health authorities in many liberal western countries bar gay sex practitioners from donating their risky blood to hospitals. Your comment about “gays living openly with dignity” is an oxymoron.
Michael Bussee,
Africans are not swayed by false comparisons drawn between a well-funded campaign by powerful foreign lobby groups to impose a debased sexual lifestyle on Africans and the honourable struggle of non-whites and Jews over the centuries to be treated with human dignity.
Just for the record, no enlightened African believes that gay sex practitioners are born with their sexual preferences, especially when there is no CREDIBLE scientific evidence to back such claims up. So there is no basis for comparing race which can be explained with genetics with a deviant sexual behaviour which cannot be rationally attributed to genetics
James–
The ‘monitoring’ that you perceive is a direct result of the extremism of the bill in it’s original. It was the death penalty and life imprisonment that captured the focus and the outrage of so many. I suspect that if the death penalty or life imprisonment had not been mentioned, no one would be paying much attention. BUT since those extremes were in the original consideration, the attention of outsiders has been garnered. And, now that Uganda has their attention, folks are monitoring. And since no one from Uganda is speaking specifically to what the ‘prohibition’ will mean in terms of penalty for consensual adults, the focus still runs high and will continue to run high as long as that question remains unanswered.
Sorry, Maazi, I don’t buy that. The response to this particular situation has been far and above more extensive…more pervasive…and it WAS due to the extreme penaltes of life imprisonment or death.
And, there’s something you’re missing. I am NOT arguing. I am simply stating what is. James questioned why many felt the need to monitor this bill and I explained why…why the monitoring started and why it won’t stop. Your rhetoric won’t change that. The wheels are in motion and, I can guarantee you that they will not stop or slow down. We can curse the wheel. We can explain how we wish the wheel didn’t work like that. We can declare that the wheel has no right to behave like that. But it won’t stop the wheel from turning. The threats of death or life imprisonment set the wheel in motion and it WILL keep on turning until those questions are resolved.
You’ve tried to convey that it doesn’t matter what we think or what we say but I’m certain that it does matter. If it really didn’t matter, you wouldn’t be blogging here. It’s as simple as that. You’ve engaged in these conversations because they mattered enough to come to your attention AND you felt a need to impact the conversations. That suggests that in some small way at least, these opinions DO matter.
I think any person, Ugandan or not, has a right — no more than that — a moral responsibility to speak out against killing homosexuals. Just as it would be a moral responsbility to speak out against killing Christians, or Jews, or blacks. I know you probably don’t see it that way, James, but I do.
Eddie,
I honestly appreciate your response to these questions Dr. Warren has dodged ever since most of us came to these pages. I think this helps understand why Dr. Warren determined to see to it that his agenda comes to pass.
Eddy, as Maazi has pointed out, do we Ugandans really deserve to be monitored and taught how to legislate issues? Don’t we have a right to No to what our culture doesn’t approve and Yes to what it approves? Take an example of the emerging Tigers of Asia, what has USA/Dr. Warren done in regard to homosexuality? I think it’s unfair to try to pressure our leaders into making a decision against their wills and cultures. I wonder why Dr. Warren et al has failed to conquer the Mighty Saudi Arabia, Iran, Malaysia and other nations that bar homosexuality.
The message is simple; Homosexuality has no place in Uganda. Whether the bill is posted or not, homosexuality has got no place in Uganda.
The question I was trying to ask had to do with assertions early on (when the Bill was first introduced) that existing Ugandan law did not adequately protect the “boychild” from defilement as it did for female children.
What I should have asked was, “If that is the case, why not just correct the flaws in the current laws to address boys and girls equally — regardless of the gender or the victim or perpetrator?”
I was hoping the he might respond to the question as to why it was necessary to have a special law to address homosexual molestation. I should not have used the word “orientation”.
My bad. I thought you were directing your comments to Maazi. If that were the case, then bringing up an unproven concept that he doesn’t believe in in an attempt to refute him would be rather pointless.
My point was not really about orientation, per se. Why mention “homosexuality” at all with regards to child abuse? Who cares if the perpetrator is male, female, gay or straight if you are really concerned about children?
MaaziNCO–
As for me, I’m finding your speeches rather tiresome. If you want to make a speech, then by all means make one but don’t pretend that you are actually responding to what’s being said or what’s being asked.
Michael–
I’m not altogether sure but I’d be surprised if they actually used the word or concept of orientation in the bill. If I’m not mistaken, as a rule, Ugandans reject the concept of orientation.
More and more, I am getting the impression that the real intent of this bill is not to “eliminate homosexuality” at all — but to prohibit any public expression or endorsement of it — to frighten gay people back into the closet and keep them there.
More and more, I get the feeling that Ssempa and his supporters don’t really give a damn what consenting gay adults do in private — even though they say they do. They just want gays to be hidden, secretive and to live in fear.
They don’t want gays to be able to live openly or with dignity. Much like many homophobes and religious conservative here in the USA wish that gays would return to the closet, “sin” in private and shut the hell up — just like it was in the “good old days” before Stonewall and the elimination of sodomy laws.
Intelligent people know that you cannot prevent homosexual orientation by making it illegal or “cure it” by forcing people into “treatment” that has no scientific basis. If the real intent is to punish child abusers, there would be no need to mention the sexual orientation of the offender.
If you really want to stop “gayism”, why not just limit freedom of speech and freedom of assembly? Close down any gay bars, make gay rights organizations illegal and arrest people who show public displays of gay affection? That would do the trick and would be much more honest.
My bad. I thought you were directing your comments to Maazi. If that were the case, then bringing up an unproven concept that he doesn’t believe in in an attempt to refute him would be rather pointless.
My point was not really about orientation, per se. Why mention “homosexuality” at all with regards to child abuse? Who cares if the perpetrator is male, female, gay or straight if you are really concerned about children?
BTW, Malaysia is just one out of several southeast nations that criminalize gayism.
BTW, Malayia is just one out of several southeast nations that criminalize gayism.
Eddy,
There are several Africans who may not be able to understand why polygamous marriage between three or more consenting adults is criminalized in Western nations as bigamy. Those Africans don’t go about demanding that US government or other western governments should face sanctions unless bigamy is legalized. Africans understand gayism to be against their culture and see its practice and advocacy as dangerous to the continuation of their family system. Africans cannot understand why Americans are attacking Uganda on the matter when there are pro-American client states in the arabian gulf with anti-gay penal codes worse than that of any African States. In fact, many African nations barely enforce their anti-gay penal codes, but these pro-American middle-east nations enforce theirs harshly. Malaysia also strongly enforces its penal code and this has not drawn a single comment from the Western governments. Africans view this hypocritical behaviour as the double-standards for which the West is world famous. Africa is being targeted because of the perception that it is poor and easier to bully. There is also the subliminal message that Africans are savages that need Western paternalism.
Africans are very intelligent people. We are not spectators to be manipulated by any group of foreigners that happens to be flying by. We engage with the world and learn from what is happening in other corners of our planet. We see that Western countries that legalized gayism in the libertarian spirit of right to privacy are now saddled with a powerful juggernaut — Euro-American Gay Lobby— which is breathing fire and demanding all or nothing. The lobbyists are no longer content with doing sodomy in privacy of their bedrooms as they had falsely promised in order to get their various western nations to decriminalize gay sex in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Since decriminalization, they have demanded and were given the chance to publicly parade the streets half-naked in outlandish and clownish clothing in the name of Gay Pride March. They want gay marriage and gay adoption and have got it in several nations where their intimidatory power is huge. They want laws proscribing people from openly disapproving of homosexuality and they got what they wanted in several European nations.
In the UK, gay lobby have succeeded in blackmailing the government to pass sweeping laws that have resulted in catholic adoption agencies having to close for refusing to extend services to gay couples [Not withstanding the Catholic offer to direct gay couples to secular agencies open to gay adoption]. These sweeping laws also led to the 2005 arrest of an elderly couple who distributed christian tracts opposing civil partnerships/gay marriages. A British civil servant who politely excused herself from conducting gay marriage on grounds of religious concience was rudely sacked. In Sweden, a lutheran pastor was once arrested for condemning gay marriage during a sermon. In your own United States, Miss California lost her chance to become Miss America for criticising gay marriage—a serious crime in the books of the Euro-American Gay Lobby.
My point is quite simple. As people who are engaged with the world, Ugandans are well aware that their society can easily be transformed into that of EU nations or USA over a period of time if sodomy is decriminalized. We do not wish to have to fight to define the meaning of marriage or adoption in the future. We don’t want American-style polarizing culture wars or socially-liberal lifestyles that breed divorce, family fragmentation, depression and suicides. We feel galvanised to resist the cross-continental campaign launched by the Euro-American Gay Lobby to globalize their debased inhuman sexual culture with the help of compromised International organisations, Western governments, the popular media and NGOs. We as Africans are determined to draw a line in the sand to say: “this is what we stand for, this is who we are and we are never going to give in to any foreign ideas that will destroy our family system, culture and traditions”.
I agree that public opinion is likely ‘solidly behind the general aspirations’ of the bill. But there’s a big difference between ‘general aspirations’ and ‘specific penalties’.
Eddy,
I can assure you that over 95% of Ugandans are against homosexuality and will support measures to contain this sexual depravity. So public opinion within Uganda is solidly behind the general aspirations of the Bahati Bill. The only people who are bothered are foreigners and their pro-gay views are not so important to ordinary Ugandans.
MaaziNCO–
As for me, I’m finding your speeches rather tiresome. If you want to make a speech, then by all means make one but don’t pretend that you are actually responding to what’s being said or what’s being asked.
Michael–
I’m not altogether sure but I’d be surprised if they actually used the word or concept of orientation in the bill. If I’m not mistaken, as a rule, Ugandans reject the concept of orientation.
BTW, Malaysia is just one out of several southeast nations that criminalize gayism.
Eddy,
There are several Africans who may not be able to understand why polygamous marriage between three or more consenting adults is criminalized in Western nations as bigamy. Those Africans don’t go about demanding that US government or other western governments should face sanctions unless bigamy is legalized. Africans understand gayism to be against their culture and see its practice and advocacy as dangerous to the continuation of their family system. Africans cannot understand why Americans are attacking Uganda on the matter when there are pro-American client states in the arabian gulf with anti-gay penal codes worse than that of any African States. In fact, many African nations barely enforce their anti-gay penal codes, but these pro-American middle-east nations enforce theirs harshly. Malaysia also strongly enforces its penal code and this has not drawn a single comment from the Western governments. Africans view this hypocritical behaviour as the double-standards for which the West is world famous. Africa is being targeted because of the perception that it is poor and easier to bully. There is also the subliminal message that Africans are savages that need Western paternalism.
Africans are very intelligent people. We are not spectators to be manipulated by any group of foreigners that happens to be flying by. We engage with the world and learn from what is happening in other corners of our planet. We see that Western countries that legalized gayism in the libertarian spirit of right to privacy are now saddled with a powerful juggernaut — Euro-American Gay Lobby— which is breathing fire and demanding all or nothing. The lobbyists are no longer content with doing sodomy in privacy of their bedrooms as they had falsely promised in order to get their various western nations to decriminalize gay sex in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Since decriminalization, they have demanded and were given the chance to publicly parade the streets half-naked in outlandish and clownish clothing in the name of Gay Pride March. They want gay marriage and gay adoption and have got it in several nations where their intimidatory power is huge. They want laws proscribing people from openly disapproving of homosexuality and they got what they wanted in several European nations.
In the UK, gay lobby have succeeded in blackmailing the government to pass sweeping laws that have resulted in catholic adoption agencies having to close for refusing to extend services to gay couples [Not withstanding the Catholic offer to direct gay couples to secular agencies open to gay adoption]. These sweeping laws also led to the 2005 arrest of an elderly couple who distributed christian tracts opposing civil partnerships/gay marriages. A British civil servant who politely excused herself from conducting gay marriage on grounds of religious concience was rudely sacked. In Sweden, a lutheran pastor was once arrested for condemning gay marriage during a sermon. In your own United States, Miss California lost her chance to become Miss America for criticising gay marriage—a serious crime in the books of the Euro-American Gay Lobby.
My point is quite simple. As people who are engaged with the world, Ugandans are well aware that their society can easily be transformed into that of EU nations or USA over a period of time if sodomy is decriminalized. We do not wish to have to fight to define the meaning of marriage or adoption in the future. We don’t want American-style polarizing culture wars or socially-liberal lifestyles that breed divorce, family fragmentation, depression and suicides. We feel galvanised to resist the cross-continental campaign launched by the Euro-American Gay Lobby to globalize their debased inhuman sexual culture with the help of compromised International organisations, Western governments, the popular media and NGOs. We as Africans are determined to draw a line in the sand to say: “this is what we stand for, this is who we are and we are never going to give in to any foreign ideas that will destroy our family system, culture and traditions”.
James–
In much the same way that I’ve tried to understand the hearts and minds of Ugandans, I’ve also tried to understand those who are so publicly concerned and outraged. You ask Dr. Warren why he just doesn’t wait for parliament to debate and seek public opinion. I believe I have a few answers to that.
1) I believe there is a strong fear that there is much going on ‘behind the scenes’ regarding this bill. Many people fear that, once it comes to the time of debate, there will be little actual debate and that it will simply be foisted on the people without taking the time to seek public opinion.
2) There ARE some curious inconsistencies. Warren is correct when he says that the bill doesn’t even appear on the Uganda Parliament website. We KNOW it exists; we KNOW it’s been presented…but there’s no explanation for why it doesn’t appear on the website. This fact alone raises much serious concern. We don’t understand WHY, when we ALL know it exists, that it doesn’t appear on the website. This feeds the concern that something is going on ‘behind the scenes’ that might not be altogether on the up and up.
3) From reading here, you are surely aware that the principle concern is for consensual adults. People who may understand resistance to the advancement of gayism…who may understand penalizing the abuse of children or the handicapped…who may understand the complexities of dealing with AIDS and it’s spread BUT they don’t understand the need to penalize two consensual adults who are engaging homosexually only with each other. Dr. Warren is correct that the bill and any further direct statements he’s gotten affirm that the government’s goal is to ‘prohibit homosexuality’ but there is silence regarding the penalties being considered for ‘consensual adults’. While there is currently silence, the last official words–presented in the first draft of the bill–indicated life imprisonment. That, therefore, remains a vital concern.
I appreciated your recent post but was disturbed by this comment:
None of us really knows ‘the heart’, ‘the intentions’ of another. And, regardless of which side we are on (there are more than two by the way), it is NEVER productive to conclude the intentions of another. My own assumption is that Dr. Warren’s intentions ARE to help and advocate for the homosexuals. One of the methods has been to apply pressure on the leaders but that can’t fairly be called the actual ‘intent’. I also don’t believe that Dr. Warren ‘thinks Africa deserves nothing’ or that he judges your people to be toddlers who can’t lead themselves. I believe that if he thought of your people as toddlers, his responses would have been more ‘coddling’.
I hope you will not take offense at the things I’ve said. Earlier you indicated that I seem to have a grasp for nuance. I’m simply trying to apply some of that nuance here as well. As for the other questions and concerns you presented to Dr. Warren, I will leave those to him.
Dr. Warren,
I agree with you. Insults do not do anything but civility would actually contribute a lot. I am deeply sorry if actually this what I did. I love civility. I wish you could begin with it also. The day you will embrace civility, I think our dialogues here would be excellent. Your constant attacks on Bahati, Ssempa and our Government ain’t a sign of civility at all. Your determination to ensure that Ssempa and Bahati are cut off from their friends in US is barbaric, it can’t be civil. The way you are pushing CRCC to answer your questions isn’t civil. You have an outright demand on CRCC like these guys owe u a lot. No, come on Dr. That is not the way we deal with matters. Let’s apply civility as you have said. Besides it is always you that has called for such reactions from the public. Your posts as many have said have been very biased, very biased indeed and we can’t see that go on when we can correct the lies peddled.
Why have you refused to appreciate the truth Ssempa and Bahati have reconsidered the death penalty clause??? If you were in support of justice for homos why don’t you give suggestions on how the bill should look like?
Dr. Warren your intentions are not to help or advocate for homos but it is to make our leaders lose face and be denied support. I can’t of feel you are the type that thinks Africa deserves nothing, they are still toddlers and can’t lead themselves. In you is a wolf mascarading in a sheep’s skin.
Why haven’t waited for our parliament to debate this bill and seek public opinion before you launch such ferocious attacks on our leaders. Why haven’t you gotten the simple truth here that Uganda as a nation does not tolerate homosexuality. It is illegal. Why can’t you respect us in that sense?
I love civility because it builds society and it promotes cherished values. Thank you Dr. for reminding me of that value of civility that we all including you ought to build up. Thank you once more.
James–
In much the same way that I’ve tried to understand the hearts and minds of Ugandans, I’ve also tried to understand those who are so publicly concerned and outraged. You ask Dr. Warren why he just doesn’t wait for parliament to debate and seek public opinion. I believe I have a few answers to that.
1) I believe there is a strong fear that there is much going on ‘behind the scenes’ regarding this bill. Many people fear that, once it comes to the time of debate, there will be little actual debate and that it will simply be foisted on the people without taking the time to seek public opinion.
2) There ARE some curious inconsistencies. Warren is correct when he says that the bill doesn’t even appear on the Uganda Parliament website. We KNOW it exists; we KNOW it’s been presented…but there’s no explanation for why it doesn’t appear on the website. This fact alone raises much serious concern. We don’t understand WHY, when we ALL know it exists, that it doesn’t appear on the website. This feeds the concern that something is going on ‘behind the scenes’ that might not be altogether on the up and up.
3) From reading here, you are surely aware that the principle concern is for consensual adults. People who may understand resistance to the advancement of gayism…who may understand penalizing the abuse of children or the handicapped…who may understand the complexities of dealing with AIDS and it’s spread BUT they don’t understand the need to penalize two consensual adults who are engaging homosexually only with each other. Dr. Warren is correct that the bill and any further direct statements he’s gotten affirm that the government’s goal is to ‘prohibit homosexuality’ but there is silence regarding the penalties being considered for ‘consensual adults’. While there is currently silence, the last official words–presented in the first draft of the bill–indicated life imprisonment. That, therefore, remains a vital concern.
I appreciated your recent post but was disturbed by this comment:
None of us really knows ‘the heart’, ‘the intentions’ of another. And, regardless of which side we are on (there are more than two by the way), it is NEVER productive to conclude the intentions of another. My own assumption is that Dr. Warren’s intentions ARE to help and advocate for the homosexuals. One of the methods has been to apply pressure on the leaders but that can’t fairly be called the actual ‘intent’. I also don’t believe that Dr. Warren ‘thinks Africa deserves nothing’ or that he judges your people to be toddlers who can’t lead themselves. I believe that if he thought of your people as toddlers, his responses would have been more ‘coddling’.
I hope you will not take offense at the things I’ve said. Earlier you indicated that I seem to have a grasp for nuance. I’m simply trying to apply some of that nuance here as well. As for the other questions and concerns you presented to Dr. Warren, I will leave those to him.
Though I am not personally an evangelical christian, I strongly identify with the overall aims and aspirations of my fellow Ugandans who happen to be pentecostal christians. I may not agree with all the methods used by Pastor Ssempa, but I strongly agree with him that gayism must be beaten back without compromise. James has already explained clearly that the Anti-Homosexuality Bill is a work in progress and therefore it is unnecessary to post something not yet ready online. I am compelled to agree with him.
Eddy,
The death penalty and some other provisions in the Bahati was always controversial from the start. There were several Ugandans who spoke against it, even before busy-body Western gay activists knew that there was such an African country called “Uganda”. It was more than likely that the death penalty would have been dropped regardless of the self-righteous cries of the foreigners. It is not uncommon in Uganda for original bills to come to parliament with very harsh or undesirable provisions and then get watered down as it passes through the legislative process. The Bahati Bill is no exception.
James – I did not dispute your contention about the CRCC leadership offering the bill to the congregation. I asked for some evidence of it. There is none on their website and the pastors have not responded to specific questions about offering the bill, while at the same time, we have exchanged correspondence about other matters.
At least one layperson in the congregation who I have recently talked to said she had never heard of the issue until the Sunday it was addressed in church. Another person in leadership there contacted a friend of mine to get a copy of it. So there is mixed evidence on that point. I believe you were told what you said but I do not see evidence of it here. It would be incredibly simple to include a link to the AHB along with the other material supplied to their people.
James, insults are not the way we roll here so please speak civilly. We could actually discuss that way.
All: It’s funny how Dr. Warren reacts when he is put to task. He enjoys the Supreme Judge position. His posts can’t be questioned. No one can challenge him. if you dare challenge him, you an anti homo, pro bahati, Ssempa etc. No way, we are here to correct the wrong image you have always potrayed about our nation Uganda and our Leaders. Tell u what, we will support our very own in promoting the right mandates. Uganda still carries her values and will give it her best to guard them.
Between the 11th May & 25th May I got a chance to meet CRCC pastor who had visited Uganda. Our talk was very helpfull, actually this is when I got to know CRCC encourage their members to acquire copies of the bill and read. They were also encoraged to get constant updates about it from their partners in Uganda. Dr. Warren seems to dispute this truth and wants the whole world to believe his voice. I am sorry atleast I will not.
Dr. Warren here is the problem; u want us to always believe your posts as absolute truth. You never accept any correction. Nowonder your interview with ONN on 19th March was a big shame. You kept being doubled minded earning the nickname “Mischief”. Rem you once supported both the Ex-Gay and Homo associations; you did did this secretelt till you were discovered and later on fired from the ex-gay Assoc. You embarras society with your continued “games”. On the 14th Feb 2005 the Magellan Health Services, Inc. fired you because your views on homosexuality were “potentially controversial” not in “the best interests” of the company. And you have continued with the same character. groove City College is a faithbased Institution that embraces Biblical teachings. You know the Bible’s position on Homosexuality. You are a wolf in a sheep’s skin. I may not say shame upon you but you know where you lie.
If Uganda was technologically advanced, you would see the stand our people have taken concerning homosexuality. By the way why hasn’t homosexuality been legalised in the entire USA?
James – I did not dispute your contention about the CRCC leadership offering the bill to the congregation. I asked for some evidence of it. There is none on their website and the pastors have not responded to specific questions about offering the bill, while at the same time, we have exchanged correspondence about other matters.
At least one layperson in the congregation who I have recently talked to said she had never heard of the issue until the Sunday it was addressed in church. Another person in leadership there contacted a friend of mine to get a copy of it. So there is mixed evidence on that point. I believe you were told what you said but I do not see evidence of it here. It would be incredibly simple to include a link to the AHB along with the other material supplied to their people.
James, insults are not the way we roll here so please speak civilly. We could actually discuss that way.
Warren–
I do not doubt in the slightest that the penalties in the AHB are designed to prohibit homosexuality. As I said just yesterday:
What I question is the presumption that they are still considering death or life imprisonment for consensual adults. I believe they do plan to ‘prohibit’ consensual adult homosexual activity but that they are purposely not telling us what that penalty might be. As I said just yesterday:
It might even be something much like our own sodomy laws that, while they remained on the books, were not enforced. The logic behind this would be that they have not legitimized homosexuality and therefore further distance themselves from ‘the intrusion of gayism’…in the schools, in the push for gay marriage, etc.
Given that I wrote those comments only 24 hours ago, I am disheartened that you should attempt to spin with:
Maazi NCO is correct in his assessment that I do not completely agree with their views. I believe I understand their concerns regarding ‘the intrusion of gayism’ and also of Western values and the Western manner of approach but I’m certainly not thrilled with the approach they’ve taken. Even if they do totally remove the possibility of death or life imprisonment, the fact that they even considered it is very disturbing to say the least. I do not believe in a ‘sin meter mentality’ where one sin somehow outranks another. Whenever we attempt to legislate morallity, we walk a fine line.
I further believe that one of the major problems with the bill is that it is responsive. What I mean by that is that it seems directly related to a perceived agenda of ‘the intrusion of gayism’. In being responsive to that perceived threat, it fell out of context with laws and prohibitions pertaining to sexuality that already exist. I believe strongly that they need to address that slanted focus as they pursue their objectives.
Beyond that, I note that Ugandans speak more bluntly than we do. We are obsessed with political correctness and feel compelled to qualify our words and statements; they don’t. Bluntly they declare ‘Our objective is to prohibit homosexualism in every manner of expression’. We see and hear no qualifiers and thus assume the worst.
And beyond THAT, they are angry at our intrusion and our demands for explanations. They are angry that we feel that we have the right to step in and tell them what to do. They are angry that we have censured CRCC. This anger is increasing the level of blunt speech; it is motivating them to being even more unresponsive than they previously were.
Discussion that ignores these dynamics and the many miscommunications and misinterpretations that they foster will overlook a number of dots as we play ‘connect the dots’. The picture we end up with will be a distortion.
I want to say even more forcefully that I do believe that it is possible that I am wrong…that the picture that you and LynnDavid see is correct. This is my first real exposure to Ugandan culture and thinking. I have learned a number of suprising (and often startling) things about their culture; I would be a fool to presume that I KNOW their heart, mind and approach. BUT I DO see this other possibility. That’s all. I realize that it’s taken a lot of words to explain what I see as a possibility but I’m not trying to argue that I am correct; I’m simply trying to argue that it is a viable possibility…one that I think would be beneficial to add to our ‘processing filters’ as we attempt to sort out inconsistencies.
PS to Maazi – But thanks for making it clear what you believe the aim of the AHB to be. You are a more honest commenter than some who come on here defending Ssempa’s spin.
Maazi – You have me confused. You say:
You first say Eddy’s comments are feeling your pulse. However, Eddy is the one who seems to doubt that the penalties in the AHB are aimed at prohibiting homosexuality.
All those causes might be for someone else. I just think it is tragic and wrong for the name of Christ to be invoked as justification to use the coercive power of the state to take life or liberty due to consensual same-sex intimacy.
To Eddy:
Your posts above are quite matured and highly nuanced. It seems you are able to feel our pulse (whether you agree with our views is another question.)
To all Americans on this blog:
I am surprised that there some commentators who do not know that we are out to prohibit homosexuality, regardless of whether it is consensual.
Let me clear up any misunderstanding— Ugandans are out to continue their campaign to further push gayism away from the public sphere. Uganda is our country and we have right to decide what will happen within it. Those who don’t have to live in our country, do not need to bother us with their shenanigans. Many of you American gay activists will probably use your time better if you focus on the following issues outside Uganda:
( a ) Getting your FDA to lift the ban on gays donating their risky blood to American hospitals. You can extend that fight to Britain’s National Health Service (NHS).
( b ) Concentrate on overturning California’s proposition 8 and the ban on gay marriage in 31 states in the USA. You can campaign to make gay studies compulsory for American children in all 50 USA states.
( c ) Force your government to ban Saudi Arabia oil from US markets until they strike down death penalty by hanging for gay acts. Place trade sanctions on Singapore, UAE, Kuwait, Oman and Malaysia until they decriminalize homosexuality and promptly agree to institute gay marriage.
( d ) Also plead with Obama administration to downgrade diplomatic relations with Lithuania until the east european nation changes its constitution and laws that bans gay marriage and the promotion of “gay propaganda” .
LynnDavid–
My eyes ARE open. I’m open to your possibility AND mine.
From your comment, it would appear that you are only open to yours.
LOL. “Open your eyes” feels like deja-vu. That was pretty much the type of response I got when I suggested that we were jumping to conclusions re the beheading victim.
PS to Maazi – But thanks for making it clear what you believe the aim of the AHB to be. You are a more honest commenter than some who come on here defending Ssempa’s spin.
Eddy: Thanks. I appreciate it.
Eddy, I don’t want to get into a fight with you, but you’re being awfully obtuse when you cannot recognize that the commentary on the bill put forth by the UJCC/Ssempa would sentencing exactly as I suggested.
Perhaps, but it has been discussed. There was a formal discussion among members of the governing party some time ago which was rather unfavorable to the bill.
Honestly, Eddy, did you read the UJCC document commenting on the bill that Warren posted? It included many other recommendations on other aspects of the bill other than the supposed “Aggravated Homosexuality” penalties of death. But it had nothing concerning the life imprisonment penalties for consensual homogenic sex.
Open your eyes….
…
Michael–
Thank you. (I just got word about your impending ‘new arrivals’. I believe I can safely guess where your focus is tonight. Thoughts and prayers for you and yours.)
Eddy: Thanks. I appreciate it.
Understood. I will not ask again.
Eddy, I don’t want to get into a fight with you, but you’re being awfully obtuse when you cannot recognize that the commentary on the bill put forth by the UJCC/Ssempa would sentencing exactly as I suggested.
Perhaps, but it has been discussed. There was a formal discussion among members of the governing party some time ago which was rather unfavorable to the bill.
Honestly, Eddy, did you read the UJCC document commenting on the bill that Warren posted? It included many other recommendations on other aspects of the bill other than the supposed “Aggravated Homosexuality” penalties of death. But it had nothing concerning the life imprisonment penalties for consensual homogenic sex.
Open your eyes….
…
If you are still uncertain as to my personal position, I accept that as a compliment. None of the topics I can recall have been focussed on ‘what’s your personal position’ and I’ve been trying my darnedest to stick to the topics presented. There was a time, back when these Ugandan discussions started, when conversation would have revealed my personal position (or possibly assisted me in discovering precisely what it was) but, unfortunately, the only response to discussing any aspect of the bill and possible criminalization for any behaviors was a resounding “No compromise; the bill simply must be withdrawn”.
Beyond that, while you pretend to courtesy and respect in your query, I have been advised of your characterization of me based on my involvement here on this blogsite. I can’t recall at the moment whether you billed me as a ‘raging’ or a ‘raving’ homophobe but, truthfully, neither one has me welling up with a spirt of cooperation towards you.
Eddy: Do you support some manner of criminalization for consensual, homosexual acts between adults in private? If so, do you support some sort of mandatory therapy for offenders?
After all these months, I am still unclear on your personal position. I apologize if you have stated your position previously and I do not want to assume that I know where you stand.
I personalized to you since you referred me to Tuhaise’s comments which he addressed to you.
I am glad to be done with this also. As I’ve already said, there are several possible conclusions we can draw. My concern was that we weren’t even considering the possibility that I see is at least as plausible as the others.
You may not see yourself as a main-player but you are…and have been for some time. The battlefield for this particular war has been primarily on the internet…while some communications obviously take place in the physical world, the rallying of troops and the calls to action have been primarily via blogs and, you, whether you believe it or not, have been more than a foot soldier. And, I believe you’ve also done some good. The reduced penalties proposed in the ‘recommendations’ are, I believe, in direct response to ‘outside pressure’. When the bill is finally discussed, while they might not defer to outside opinions and recommendations–they will certainly have them in mind and those opinions WILL have some degree of impact.
Eddy – The UJCC recommendations were not made to me so your personalizing this to me is inappropriate. They were made to Parliament. Martin Ssempa offered them to CRCC as an indication that he no longer supports the death penalty, but he did not mention anything about prison. If they followed your logic – don’t say what we recommend, because it will only cause more debate – then they would not have made any recommendations at all.
In any case, I am done with this. Believe what you think makes sense.
Yes, Warren, they are definitely out to prohibit homosexuality. Where you go too far is when you continue to assume that the penalty is going to be life imprisonment for consensual adult behavior simply because they won’t answer you with specific penalities. Here in America, we once prohibited alcohol and its use…but the penalty was neither death or life imprisonment.
I notice that, once again, they don’t provide you with specifics (the reasons I enumerated for them not sharing with you still stand). Consider that it’s their debate and their country. Consider that the prevailing opinions behind your blog have shouted long and hard that ‘we will accept no compromise’. Those voices have rejected every manner of criminalization including mandatory involvement in therapy. So, providing you any specifics regarding what penalities they are considering will only lead to more debate and public opinion pressure from the outside. So they’ve spoken to those most serious offenses and have removed the death penalty and life imprisonment BUT they realize that ‘the rights of two consensual adults’ is a sacred cow in our culture AND THEREFORE they are keeping quiet (at least with you) about what penalties they are actually considering.
Wow, wow.
I can’t put it any better than Eddy has put it in his latest post. I could explain no better than him. Atleast I am not the only one who has clear noted that about Dr. Warren. I hope since an American like Eddy(I hope you are) has spoken may be Dr. will hear no actually listen to this.
Dr. Warren, I will respond in a while what you pointed out.
Eddy – I am not sure what you mean by blog fodder. I want to make it clear that the email from Martin Ssempa and Charles Tuhaise were all on the record. They knew because I told them that I was a columnist and was contacting them to write about the AHB.
I don’t know if Pastor Odor deliberately misled his congregation but unless you can show differently, I can see no other result. If they only hear and read what the leadership provided, then the congregation does not have all the facts about the basics. They do not know what the bill really is about nor do they really know the level of involvement of the man they are giving money to. If what Odor said in his sermon introduction was true, then I would not have written more than a couple of posts on the whole issue. Why would anyone oppose making the law equal for the boy child?
Your belief in option 1 is astounding given what you have read here over the last several months. Read again what Charles Tuhaise said in the latest post. He describes option 2. They are out to prohibit homosexuality. The bill says so and the people behind it say so.
Yes, Warren, they are definitely out to prohibit homosexuality. Where you go too far is when you continue to assume that the penalty is going to be life imprisonment for consensual adult behavior simply because they won’t answer you with specific penalities. Here in America, we once prohibited alcohol and its use…but the penalty was neither death or life imprisonment.
I notice that, once again, they don’t provide you with specifics (the reasons I enumerated for them not sharing with you still stand). Consider that it’s their debate and their country. Consider that the prevailing opinions behind your blog have shouted long and hard that ‘we will accept no compromise’. Those voices have rejected every manner of criminalization including mandatory involvement in therapy. So, providing you any specifics regarding what penalities they are considering will only lead to more debate and public opinion pressure from the outside. So they’ve spoken to those most serious offenses and have removed the death penalty and life imprisonment BUT they realize that ‘the rights of two consensual adults’ is a sacred cow in our culture AND THEREFORE they are keeping quiet (at least with you) about what penalties they are actually considering.
Yes, LynnDavid, that’s too much of a stretch for me.
I fear we’re getting hopelessly entangled in our own web of spin. 1) I agree that that conclusion is dumb. 2) The bill is not commentary…can you point me to actual commentary out of Uganda that says what I’ve quoted from you above? 3) The actual commentary that I’m hearing out of Uganda (some from Uganda who blog here; those who have spoken to Ssempa from CRCC) is that they aren’t talking death or life imprisonment for anybody….not even child sexual abusers or those who are HIV pos. 4) So, where is that dumb conclusion coming from???? 5) The answer: From the bill!
Yes, the bill. A proposal… the first submitted draft of a proposed bill that hasn’t yet even been formally discussed. And, unlike other bills, this one gained international attention before it was even formally discussed. Some of those who had a part in sponsoring it have, even before official discussion has begun, recognized that it is both way too severe and has some language problems. They came together and attempted to address that and went to the part that has drawn the biggest outcry…the severity of penalty. They spoke to the severe penalty for the most offensive crimes. Why are we presuming that they favor a more severe penalty for a less offensive crime? Why were they silent about reducing the life imprisonment penalty for homosexual touching?
Several possibilities for that one. 1) That was never the focus of the bill in the first place and was the result of a wording problem that would get worked out in discussion. 2) That really is their intent and they hope that by ‘throwing the world a bone’ (we’ll reduce the proscribed penalties for these enumerated behaviors), it will distract them from the reality that they are really after the consensuals and the touchers. 3) (Even more insidious) Applying set logic, everybody found guilty of those proposed ‘lesser crimes’ (sexual abuse of child or handicapped and the pos HIV of LynnDavid’s example) would also be guilty of ‘homosexual touching’.
I believe in option 1.
Well, then, why don’t they just answer Warren’s questions and settle this thing? 1) Because they owe him absolutely nothing. They have NO relationship with him and, more than likely, they perceive him as a troublesome meddler who constantly feeds the pipeline of anti-Ugandan sentiment.
2) Any dialogues with Warren on their behalf immediately become ‘blog-fodder’. They’ve already seen his level of mistrust. They’ve felt the sting of his judgements. They’ve seen the fervor of his campaign.
3) His forum (this blog) is primarily adversarial and quite single-minded. (Although James and a few others have tried to point out that the Ugandan bill was in the works long before the ‘three visitors’, that point–which seems very important to them–barely gets a notice from him.) In short, he’s not viewed as objective. He’s trying to wear three hats: reporter, campaigner and blogger–and it’s not working. The objective reporter has ‘left the building’.
4) Warren has set himself up as a judge. (Note that the CRCC website posted several items in their explanation of the Ssempa controversy. The PDF file of the ‘comments and recommendations’ only contained page 1. The judge declared that this was a purposeful attempt to mislead the congregation. (I was actually impressed that the church had a viable and working website…most are somewhat primitive…and that they knew how to include links. I wondered why there was no allowance for the possibility that the incomplete document was a glitch or error.)
5) Even when wrong, Warren is very compelling. In his ‘reporting’ of the beheading incident, while he did concede that all the facts were in, it was his message of ‘connect the dots’ that further fueled that fire.
With these things in mind, statements by Warren that ‘they have not responded to my requests’ don’t automatically suggest to me that their reasons for not responding are all insidious.
Wow, wow.
I can’t put it any better than Eddy has put it in his latest post. I could explain no better than him. Atleast I am not the only one who has clear noted that about Dr. Warren. I hope since an American like Eddy(I hope you are) has spoken may be Dr. will hear no actually listen to this.
Dr. Warren, I will respond in a while what you pointed out.
Yes, LynnDavid, that’s too much of a stretch for me.
I fear we’re getting hopelessly entangled in our own web of spin. 1) I agree that that conclusion is dumb. 2) The bill is not commentary…can you point me to actual commentary out of Uganda that says what I’ve quoted from you above? 3) The actual commentary that I’m hearing out of Uganda (some from Uganda who blog here; those who have spoken to Ssempa from CRCC) is that they aren’t talking death or life imprisonment for anybody….not even child sexual abusers or those who are HIV pos. 4) So, where is that dumb conclusion coming from???? 5) The answer: From the bill!
Yes, the bill. A proposal… the first submitted draft of a proposed bill that hasn’t yet even been formally discussed. And, unlike other bills, this one gained international attention before it was even formally discussed. Some of those who had a part in sponsoring it have, even before official discussion has begun, recognized that it is both way too severe and has some language problems. They came together and attempted to address that and went to the part that has drawn the biggest outcry…the severity of penalty. They spoke to the severe penalty for the most offensive crimes. Why are we presuming that they favor a more severe penalty for a less offensive crime? Why were they silent about reducing the life imprisonment penalty for homosexual touching?
Several possibilities for that one. 1) That was never the focus of the bill in the first place and was the result of a wording problem that would get worked out in discussion. 2) That really is their intent and they hope that by ‘throwing the world a bone’ (we’ll reduce the proscribed penalties for these enumerated behaviors), it will distract them from the reality that they are really after the consensuals and the touchers. 3) (Even more insidious) Applying set logic, everybody found guilty of those proposed ‘lesser crimes’ (sexual abuse of child or handicapped and the pos HIV of LynnDavid’s example) would also be guilty of ‘homosexual touching’.
I believe in option 1.
Well, then, why don’t they just answer Warren’s questions and settle this thing? 1) Because they owe him absolutely nothing. They have NO relationship with him and, more than likely, they perceive him as a troublesome meddler who constantly feeds the pipeline of anti-Ugandan sentiment.
2) Any dialogues with Warren on their behalf immediately become ‘blog-fodder’. They’ve already seen his level of mistrust. They’ve felt the sting of his judgements. They’ve seen the fervor of his campaign.
3) His forum (this blog) is primarily adversarial and quite single-minded. (Although James and a few others have tried to point out that the Ugandan bill was in the works long before the ‘three visitors’, that point–which seems very important to them–barely gets a notice from him.) In short, he’s not viewed as objective. He’s trying to wear three hats: reporter, campaigner and blogger–and it’s not working. The objective reporter has ‘left the building’.
4) Warren has set himself up as a judge. (Note that the CRCC website posted several items in their explanation of the Ssempa controversy. The PDF file of the ‘comments and recommendations’ only contained page 1. The judge declared that this was a purposeful attempt to mislead the congregation. (I was actually impressed that the church had a viable and working website…most are somewhat primitive…and that they knew how to include links. I wondered why there was no allowance for the possibility that the incomplete document was a glitch or error.)
5) Even when wrong, Warren is very compelling. In his ‘reporting’ of the beheading incident, while he did concede that all the facts were in, it was his message of ‘connect the dots’ that further fueled that fire.
With these things in mind, statements by Warren that ‘they have not responded to my requests’ don’t automatically suggest to me that their reasons for not responding are all insidious.
Reading what the UJCC wrote is too much of a stretch for you? The UJCC said that for pedophilia, rape of someone who cannot give consent (disabled or drugged), or if the perpetrator was an authority figure or HIV poz (aka “aggravated homosexuality”) that:
They said nothing about changing the life imprisonment sentencing for two adults engaging in consensual sexual acts. So, two consensual males have sex and are discovered. One who is HIV neg goes to prison for life; the other who is HIV poz gets sentenced to a religious rehab for 20 years. That is how dumb some of the commentary out of Uganda has been on this bill. (At least the Anglican and Catholic head bishops of Uganda have been smarter, saying that the bill should be thrown out).
And just what is a faith-based rehab that goes on for 20 years that a government with religious freedom agrees to? Sounds more like government sponsored and supported (with government funds) slavery to me, with Ssempa, Oyet, and others like them getting the benefits of such incarceration.
…
James,
Integrity is not never making a mistake. Integrity is correcting the mistake as quickly as possible and seeking to be certain that all know the truth.
Warren has integrity. If Ssempa has integrity he has yet to demonstrate it.
James – Where do you find this:
RE: Pasikali – I said a blog reported that he had been killed which may have had something to do with his sexuality and then when it became clear that it was a false report, I reported that as well. I am sorry for passing along what turned out to be a false report but I didn’t make the false report and I quickly reported what I learned. You might ask Rev. Ssempa to do the same thing when it comes to his reports that Uganda law doesn’t cover the boy child.
In fact, in the situation you describe, you, me, the law and all gay groups in your country agree that a crime was committed. The law you have now covers that situation and if it is not being prosecuted it is the fault of the authorities not the law. All gay groups in your country agree that child molesters should be strongly punished. You are raising a controversy where there isn’t one.
RE: The youth in the Missionaries of Hate, kindly provide the contacts where I can verify your statements. I want to check them with the documentarians. It certainly is possible that they made a mistake in identifying the youth, but again I only reported what I was told. If you have additional information, as always I will correct any false report.
Dave & Dr. Warren,
I see no reason of posting the AHB bill online until our parliament has done every discussion regarding it. I would be misleading if I posted anything raw online. I don’t want to be like any of you.
Dave I think it is very ridiculous of you to say that you don’t want to hear anything like the parliament is still discussing it. We are a civilised society that strongly appreciates public opinion. Since this is a public, parliament definitely will discuss it in consultation with various publics in Uganda.
Dr. Warren, you lied us that Pasikali was beheaded because of his sexual orientation. To this date, you have never come out to publicly apologise to the bloggers. You also posted inaccurate information that in the documentary Missionaries of Hate in minute 38 the youth who said they would kill a homo was one of Ssempa’s youth. My follow up on this proved that it wasn’t true. Thirdly you lied that Pastor Kevin Odor had partially informed his audience about the AHB, this actually not true. Every one in CRCC was asked to get a copy of this bill and read through it, they were also given responses of Martin Ssempa and the recommendations of the UJCC. Recently when Ssempa visited the States, he was given chance to explain his stand to the whole leadership of CRCC and they were satisfied with his stand. Actually I discovered that CRCC sent some of their leaders to Uganda on this issue. They met with Ssempa and other Pastors in town and also took public opinion regarding the bill. I am sure their stand on Ssempa is based on some of the information they got here. I trust Odor to be a guy who never entertains junk. Your inaccuracies are numerous. Infact you actually coat the pure gold with a lot of impure gold thus there is so little truth in your so much exaggerated posts. You rely on half truth to model big stories for homosexual and hate world.
I think there is a need for the likes of Dr. Warren, Dave to give Uganda a chance to make her independent decisions. Each and every time I see a new scramble for my nation. UNICEF recently distributed gay books in Primary and Secondary schools in Uganda without the consent of Ministry of Education, top gays in Uganda keep writing threatening messages to ex-gays. One of those cases was reported to the police-he personally requested for my help here.
A couple of months ago I counseled a young man (minor) called Alex (not real names) who was deeply entrenched in homosexuality. Alex was only 14 and he had slept with over 8 men and he had recreated six 10-14year olds. He had been expelled from four primary (elementary) schools. His journey into homosexuality was one of being lured into it with only a bottle of Coca Cola by an adult. The law was powerless to help Alex. The rest is history. Alex is now back to school, reformed but with a ruptured rectum. The law couldn’t help him neither could his divorced parents. His other crew is also back to school, reformed. I regularly meet with them to continue journeying back to their natural path. We are no haters we are no killers, we love everyone and do absolutely believe that every Homosexual can be reformed/healed. And Uganda will surely not bow to any pressure.
Maazi-
it was not my intent or of the others to humor you. But humor is one of those strange things…we all seem to find it where we will and for reasons of our own.
James,
Integrity is not never making a mistake. Integrity is correcting the mistake as quickly as possible and seeking to be certain that all know the truth.
Warren has integrity. If Ssempa has integrity he has yet to demonstrate it.
Dave & Dr. Warren,
I see no reason of posting the AHB bill online until our parliament has done every discussion regarding it. I would be misleading if I posted anything raw online. I don’t want to be like any of you.
Dave I think it is very ridiculous of you to say that you don’t want to hear anything like the parliament is still discussing it. We are a civilised society that strongly appreciates public opinion. Since this is a public, parliament definitely will discuss it in consultation with various publics in Uganda.
Dr. Warren, you lied us that Pasikali was beheaded because of his sexual orientation. To this date, you have never come out to publicly apologise to the bloggers. You also posted inaccurate information that in the documentary Missionaries of Hate in minute 38 the youth who said they would kill a homo was one of Ssempa’s youth. My follow up on this proved that it wasn’t true. Thirdly you lied that Pastor Kevin Odor had partially informed his audience about the AHB, this actually not true. Every one in CRCC was asked to get a copy of this bill and read through it, they were also given responses of Martin Ssempa and the recommendations of the UJCC. Recently when Ssempa visited the States, he was given chance to explain his stand to the whole leadership of CRCC and they were satisfied with his stand. Actually I discovered that CRCC sent some of their leaders to Uganda on this issue. They met with Ssempa and other Pastors in town and also took public opinion regarding the bill. I am sure their stand on Ssempa is based on some of the information they got here. I trust Odor to be a guy who never entertains junk. Your inaccuracies are numerous. Infact you actually coat the pure gold with a lot of impure gold thus there is so little truth in your so much exaggerated posts. You rely on half truth to model big stories for homosexual and hate world.
I think there is a need for the likes of Dr. Warren, Dave to give Uganda a chance to make her independent decisions. Each and every time I see a new scramble for my nation. UNICEF recently distributed gay books in Primary and Secondary schools in Uganda without the consent of Ministry of Education, top gays in Uganda keep writing threatening messages to ex-gays. One of those cases was reported to the police-he personally requested for my help here.
A couple of months ago I counseled a young man (minor) called Alex (not real names) who was deeply entrenched in homosexuality. Alex was only 14 and he had slept with over 8 men and he had recreated six 10-14year olds. He had been expelled from four primary (elementary) schools. His journey into homosexuality was one of being lured into it with only a bottle of Coca Cola by an adult. The law was powerless to help Alex. The rest is history. Alex is now back to school, reformed but with a ruptured rectum. The law couldn’t help him neither could his divorced parents. His other crew is also back to school, reformed. I regularly meet with them to continue journeying back to their natural path. We are no haters we are no killers, we love everyone and do absolutely believe that every Homosexual can be reformed/healed. And Uganda will surely not bow to any pressure.
Eddy et al,
I find it quite funny that you guys are busy exchanging words over whether UJCC said this or said that. Do you guys not know how parliamentary process works? UJCC is not the parliament of Uganda. It is just an organisation within Uganda supporting a Private Member’s Bill. During parliamentary hearings, ordinary Ugandans and local pressure groups will have the chance to voice their views about the Bahati Bill. Some of the provisions in the Bahati Bill will probably be modified or deleted. I personally do not accept some provisions— especially the issue of so-called “same-sex touching”. In most African societies, it is common for men to hold hands as a sign of platonic friendship (not homosexual relations). So the original bill is in danger of inadvertently criminalizing innocent behaviour which is acceptable to our people. In fact, what is often missed in all your arguments is that UJCC pronouncement against the death penalty provision is probably a compromise position reached between some evangelicals who supported death penalty and Catholics and Anglicans that opposed that penalty. There is still a plethora of changes and compromises to be made before the Bill reaches the stage of becoming law. It is quite possible that the revised Bahati Bill at the end of the parliamentary process may be barely recognisable when compared to its original version. It is also quite possible that the original version of the Bahati Bill may emerge from the parliamentary process with a modest amount of changes. In fact, anything is possible, except the wish of the Euro-American Gay Lobby to force the scrapping of future plans to enact stronger legislation against gayism.
Dave,
I agree that you did not actually write that we are brainwashed robots, but you certainly implied it in your commentary, when you rendered an unsolicited apology on behalf of missionaries for allegedly making a “mess of things in Africa”. It is well known that gay advocates in the West promote the canard that african rejection of gayism is traceable to some mythical brainwashing program carried out by european christian missionaries. [Just for the record, one must distinguish between colonial authorities and ancient christian missionaries. The two groups did not necessarily sing from the same hymn book or share the same interests in Africa]
Warren–
So, the scenario that you fear (or suspect) is that they want to enact a law that penalizes the homosexual abuse of a child or handicapped person with 20 years in a treatment facility but penalize homosexual touching with life imprisonment? And that they are jaded enough to try to slip that one past everybody?
Sorry, that’s too much of a stretch for me.
Maazi-
it was not my intent or of the others to humor you. But humor is one of those strange things…we all seem to find it where we will and for reasons of our own.
PS – Eddy – Please note that the purpose of the bill is to prohibit all same-sex activity. They led with this. I assume they mean it.
These recommendations were very specific. If they did not comment on something I am not going to assume they just overlooked it or wanted the reader to assume something. I have asked Martin Ssempa and others in UG for clarification and having received none, will assume nothing more than what is written.
Warren–
I don’t know how to say this any clearer either: they made a very clear statement re a 20 year penalty for ‘aggravated homosexuality’ and further seemed to indicate that the other behaviors didn’t fit in with abuse of a child or the handicapped. They’ve said all along that their primary purpose was to ‘protect the children’. So, they spoke predominantly to the most serious offense and said that even it didn’t warrant death or life imprisonment. You even suggested that it seemed illogical that they would suggest reduced penalties for these more exaggerated offenses while leaving ‘life’ on the table for homosexual touching. Why would you rather believe that they are still considering ‘life’ for that offense rather than they omitted speaking to it because it wasn’t in the center of their radar?
Dave: No need to go into other issues further. I think CRCC is a good case in point.
Eddy: The UJCC did not recommend any change to the bill in Section 2. It must be ok. If they wanted changes in it, they did not say so. I cannot spell it out any clearer.
Well Eddy .. your response does not surprise me. I have plenty of things I could clog up this particular blogpost with. And you might agree or disagree with the multiple things I would bring up. But that is not the topic at hand. I’ve been down this road before and I am simply sharing my own painful journey in discovering that I and many others have not been told the full truth by Christian political leaders. If Dr. Throckmorton wants me to share my research in the future he can ask me and we will see what works out. But if I did that now it would bring multiple other examples to the table which is not what this post is about.
There are two issues I see generally at work here. The first is that .. as Dr Throckmorton has demonstrated .. this church / pastor has not been totally forthcoming with its members. The second is that where they have been forthcoming the congregation is not (presumably) as concerned as some others are who are participating on this blog. This gets back to a point I made earlier that in much of the Christian world .. if its anti-gay .. its ok. This is indeed the attitude I had for many years. While my moral postion has not changed … my concerns about my own attitude and the way in which we interact with the world has changed. When we are happy to incarcerate / civily punish others for what we believe are sexual sins but take a much gentler track with our own sins .. there is something wrong. When leaders see fit to keep information from their congregations there is something wrong. We all don’t agree on this blog .. but at least the references are here for us to read. We are given the raw material in order to make our own conclusions. This is what church people need to know as well .. They need to know that things are not as simple as they have been led to believe. And they need to be equiped with facts and references so that they can come to their own conclusions as to whether they should financially or otherwise supporting a minister or political view.
Two things are needed here..
Leaders that give their people full information so they can form their own conclusions.
A change of heart and attitude so that we treat others as we would want to be treated (to give the same grace to others that we give to ourselves).
Dave,
I agree that you did not actually write that we are brainwashed robots, but you certainly implied it in your commentary, when you rendered an unsolicited apology on behalf of missionaries for allegedly making a “mess of things in Africa”. It is well known that gay advocates in the West promote the canard that african rejection of gayism is traceable to some mythical brainwashing program carried out by european christian missionaries. [Just for the record, one must distinguish between colonial authorities and ancient christian missionaries. The two groups did not necessarily sing from the same hymn book or share the same interests in Africa]
Warren–
I’ve read the complete recommendations in your newest post;
in what part of the recommendations do you find support for ‘life imprisonment for same sex touching’?
Dave–
Not playing games with your words, Dave, just trying to show you what’s clearly in them. And I share your frustration, I try to get people to talk in terms of what’s concrete and only seem to get innuendo in response. You say:
but you aren’t being concrete yourself. Please consider all the abstractions in your statement to me:
There isn’t a single documented fact in that entire quote. No names of leaders, no reference to how many you researched, how long you researched or how you researched. Nothing by which to assess your level of possible bias. No consideration for possible misinterpretation. The assessment of ‘insanity around this bill’..the ‘evasiveness’. While they sound like specific charges, you don’t cite what’s insane or what ‘s evasive. Don’t get me wrong…I do understand completely why you feel the other side is like this; I’m simply trying to point out that your team is doing it too and I don’t see the point in abstract finger-pointing. It doesn’t seem to be enhancing the discussion.
Eddy,
You can play games with my words all you want to.. I spent plenty of time researching the truth behind many statements made by Christian political leaders particularly agains gay and lesbian people. I stand by what I found … and almost left the Christian faith due to it. But .. I persevered. The insanity around this bill .. the evasiveness of UJCC .. all mirror what I have seen elsewhere. Its all the same thing… . Not showing the full documetnation .. making claims without documentation .. misleading people about the contents of various bills be they hate crime bills, ENDA, this bill, or countless other bills. An endless train of falseness .. lies … and misrepresentations. Why Christians would get involved in such things I will never know. I don’t know what James’ motivation is .. all I am asking is that people deal with that which is concrete .. not abstract guesswork and inuendo. .. I am still waiting….
Note to Maazi NCO … My statement about missionaries’ failures was a reference to the colonialism ideology that hurt African people in times past. I am assuming that this hurtfulness from the past is the catalyst for some of the remarks I am hearing in the present from you and others. As for this statement of yours: ” So you need to drop your patronizing comments about Africans being brainwashed robots” Where exactlly have I said this.??? Please limit your comments to actual things being said .. not a fictional argument that you have in your own mind.
These recommendations were very specific. If they did not comment on something I am not going to assume they just overlooked it or wanted the reader to assume something. I have asked Martin Ssempa and others in UG for clarification and having received none, will assume nothing more than what is written.
Eddy – Please read the most recent post and see all of the recommendations from the UJCC. The Canyon Ridge leaders only gave their people the first page and did not give them a copy of the bill. The recommendations said nothing about the life in prison for gay touching. Apparently CRCC does not want their people to see that or else they would have produced sufficient documents to allow them to make an informed opinion. I have asked them why these aspects were not included with no reply.
Dave–
My question was far more simple than your convoluted answer merits. Why are we asking James to produce a copy of the bill? I’ve read his comments here and he doesn’t seem to be saying that people are lying about what the bill actually says. He’s saying that Ssempa has publicly stated that he does not favor the death penalty.
From one of the links found at the Canyon Ridge website (follow Warren’s first link in the main topic):
Although I acknowledge that this statement doesn’t answer all of our burning questions, it does seem apparent that 1) even for the offense of ‘aggravated homosexuality’, they now suggest a penalty of 20 years rather than death. 2) they are aware that ‘aggravated homosexuality’ is being used in a manner that is too inclusive…they see a distinction between those who abuse children or the handicapped and those who have HIV/AIDS, abuse authority or are repeat offenders. 3) They ask that those latter cases be interpreted differently when the bill is actually discussed.
Of Warren’s objections, the one I remember being brought up most often is the case of the ‘repeat offender’. Warren is correct when he says that the bill, as written, makes no distinction. I am encouraged by the knowledge that a distinction has been recognized and that, even before formal discussion has begun, has been addressed in the recommendation that I quoted from above.
I often wonder if we aren’t the victims of political mish-mash. We hear with our American ears that Ssempa ‘still supports the anti-homosexuality bill’. (Some even hear that as ‘Ssempa still supports the kill the gays bill’.) But I hear that in the same way that I hear much of our American political rhetoric, especially in campaign time. “So and so voted against (you name the cause or bill) umpteen times.” And no mention of the fact that it was some objectionable ‘rider’ that swung their vote to ‘against’. Or we hear that ‘so and so supports THE WAR’ and later discover that they’ve spoken out against THE WAR but voted in favor of equipping the troops sufficiently while we are still engaged. I suspect that Ssempa is essentially FOR the bill…he believes that legislation ought to be in place to restrict the advancement of homosexuality in his country BUT he recognizes that the bill has problems both in its wording and in the extremity of the penalties. I don’t know this to be absolutely true but it’s what I surmise from the various sources that I’ve read.
BTW: I found this statement to be absolutely ‘loaded’.
My questions went directly to the requests that were being made of James. Am I to presume that you are referring to him in this statement? Do you perceive him to be raising ‘ire against gay and lesbian people politically’ in his comments here? If you weren’t speaking specifically of James, doesn’t beginning your response to my questions in this way qualify as ‘innuendo’?
Dave,
if it makes you feel better, then let me inform you that gayism was an abomination and an aberration in most of Africa even before European christian missionaries showed up. The British act of enacting the original anti-gay penal code does not negate the fact that gayism was already frowned upon in our various unwritten customary laws that enshrine our cultures and traditions. I know that my truthful commentary contravenes the euro-american propaganda theme,which has some how managed to use the Arab-influenced deviant behaviour of King Mwanga II to claim that Ugandans were somehow gay sex lovers before european missionaries arrived.
I think the power and influence of missionaries are often exaggerated. If they were that powerful, how come polygamy is legal — but not gayism —even in predominantly christian african nations. Beyond Africa, in any nation where customs and traditions are upheld, gayism is usually frowned upon. There are non-christian/non-muslim nations where gayism is illegal by law or defacto legal, but not socially acceptable. So you need to drop your patronizing comments about Africans being brainwashed robots.
Eddy,
Perhaps you are not familiar with this but I have seen constantly and consistently that the Christians that raise the most ire agains gay and lesbian people politically are typically loath to actually post real and true information. Instead they make a lot of inuendo and claims that are not backed up with facts.
James has claimed that Dr. Throckmorton has put up false information .. I join Dr. Throckmorton in asking James to show us the false information. James is telling me I should do research elsewhere and that I am not getting the true story .. And again .. I say .. Show me this other alleged information. Likewise with this bill .. many sources have lied about whats in the bill and those same sources have refused to post the bill. I am saying to James and any other visiting Ugandans to this site .. Post the bill HERE and explain it to me if I have it wrong. Additionally I do not want to hear excuses that the bill is in committee and we don’t know what it will look like yet in its final form. The bill being in committee has not stopped Pastor Ssempsa from supporting this bill in both its original “death penalty” version and the proposed alternative version that Canyon Ridge says they talked to him about. Again show me the bill .. show me what Ssempsa is saying should be changed and explain to me why these incredible penalties are justifiable.
I am still waiting…….
Eddy,
You can play games with my words all you want to.. I spent plenty of time researching the truth behind many statements made by Christian political leaders particularly agains gay and lesbian people. I stand by what I found … and almost left the Christian faith due to it. But .. I persevered. The insanity around this bill .. the evasiveness of UJCC .. all mirror what I have seen elsewhere. Its all the same thing… . Not showing the full documetnation .. making claims without documentation .. misleading people about the contents of various bills be they hate crime bills, ENDA, this bill, or countless other bills. An endless train of falseness .. lies … and misrepresentations. Why Christians would get involved in such things I will never know. I don’t know what James’ motivation is .. all I am asking is that people deal with that which is concrete .. not abstract guesswork and inuendo. .. I am still waiting….
Note to Maazi NCO … My statement about missionaries’ failures was a reference to the colonialism ideology that hurt African people in times past. I am assuming that this hurtfulness from the past is the catalyst for some of the remarks I am hearing in the present from you and others. As for this statement of yours: ” So you need to drop your patronizing comments about Africans being brainwashed robots” Where exactlly have I said this.??? Please limit your comments to actual things being said .. not a fictional argument that you have in your own mind.
I’m obviously missing something but I’m not sure what. When I need to reference the bill, I can come to Warren’s site and find his link to the bill. Why the repeated challenges for James to post the bill? Are we suggesting that James has a version that differs from Warren’s? If not, why do we need him to post a copy of something we already have access to?
James,
I see no need to email Ssempsa about anything. I have heard enough of his rhetoric from multiple sources. I am sure Pastor Ssempsa has done a lot of good over the years. Unfortunately I see in him what I have seen in many fellow Christians (including myself at one time).. an incredible amount of self-righteousness when it comes to homosexuality issues. For example .. Since heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by at least 10 to 1 and more likely 20 to 1 or higher it would seem to make more sense to focus on heterosexual sins with the same or greater vigor. But that is not what is happening .. neither here nor from other Christian leaders. Instead it is easier to preach against sins that straight Christians will never do. And it is easier to support overboard legislation against sins that straight Christians will never do. This is about Christians misrepresenting Christ. This is about Christans being self righteous. This is about Christians discerning whether they should suppoprt or not support other Christans in the work they are doing. It has nothing to do with some alleged Euro-American propoganda (your very statement on this is propoganda .. creating some phony enemy without dealing with the questions at hand)
I do acknowledge that Chrisian missionaries in the past made a mess of things in Africa. I understand to some degree why any American or European comments on what a soverign nation in Africa is doing would be offensive. But beyond the mistakes of the past .. it is a present reality that nations that want to be part of the international community often need to meet certain conditions or human rights stipulations if they want to benefit from that community. That is not propoganda .. that is simple reality. I have nothing to do with how other countries are responding to Uganda and this bill. I have no control over that. However as a Christian I am concerned with what Pastor Ssempsa is doing.
I notice that like all the others you also are afraid of posting the actual bill and actually saying what it means. I am still waiting.
PS – James, Martin Ssempa told Michael Brown on the radio on March 11 that he would post a copy of the bill and to date he has not done so. Dave is correct, it is the people who oppose the bill who post it, and those who favor it, here and there who do not.
James – Please point out inaccuracies in what I have written. I hope Dave does email Ssempa and Bahati. I have also emailed them and have had several email conversations with Ssempa. He sent me the information regarding his response to Rick Warren and other information. I have never not put up anything he has sent to me. Please point out what is false.
Dave,
that is the place you always run to–“post the bill on line”. We donot fear to post the Bill on line. The issue is this Parliament has taken it up and it is in discussion. A bill is not law and may not necessarily end up in the way it was written. You ought to know that many adjustments can be made on any bill presented to the parliament. It’s wise to wait for parliament to present a report on it before you conclude.
The problem with you is that you never carry out an independent research on these issues. You heavily rely on Dr. Warren’s writings which have been very inaccurate and biased. I advice that you email ssempa or Bahati and you hear their real stand on these issues as opposed to basing your arguments on biased information.
Euro-American propaganda has no place in Africa.
Africans lets all play our role in the fight against homosexuality.
It is widely considered that homosexuality is unheard of in Africa, so let us not leave the stuggle to the ssempas of this world bur we too can tell the rest of the world the truth that homosexuality is not acceptable here.
Ssempa has tried his level best to ensure that sanity prevails in our land and this is not because he gets support from CRCC but bse it is his mandate as a concerned citizen to ensure that our laws and customs are upheld. Infact homosexuality is illegal under the Ugandan constitution yet this practice is still freely practiced and no body has ever been killed or arrested by SSempa.
Ssempa shd go on and continue to preach the msg of salvation and repentence and the state and law enforcers shd also play their part in upholding the laws and values of the land.
Perhaps the several gentlemen reporting from Uganda on this thread would be willing to actually post the Antihomosexuality Bill here and explain it to us line by line. I doubt you will. For I have noticed that no one that supports the bill is willing to post the bill. So .. we’ll see what happens.
Dr. Warren,
America must realise that Uganda is a sovereign nation with cultures and traditions. The practises promoted in New York may not necessarily be the ones that must be promoted here in Uganda. You oftenly misdirect us by attacking Ssempa and his supporters instead of taking us to real issue; Homosexuality. Why can’t we discuss ways of eliminating this vice in Uganda like how you are trying to “help” us eliminate poverty/diseases-for homosexuality is like it. You frequently go personal to whip up hatred for Uganda, Ssempa, Bahati and others. I remembered the sayings of a certain Great African Leader that” if They (opponents) can’t get you in other means,then they will come for you yourself”. This is what you have done exactly to these guys. Your posts are so biased, they are one way. they are intended to destroy their wonderful contributions in histroy. Canyon Ridge has actually put it right that Ssempa has been MISREPRESENTED. And so has Bahati and others. There is no objectivity here. Several times I have met these guys on the issue of Anti Gay Bill and their response is consistent; No Killing Homos. Much us other Ugandans may probably want that Bahati and Company have turned down that. Actually in all their presentations to parliament and the Cabinet, they consistently maintained that. problem is here, you Dr. Warren went ahead and labelled Ssempa and bahati as Kill-the-Gay guys. Your actions were not really representative of the respect you command in the academic world. There is completely no objectivity in your posts, absolutely nothing. It is wise if you rerouted us back to the real conversation.
Folks, finally the voices from Uganda are springing up. Maazi and Edward am back to these pages, I took off time to finish up my academic thesis.
Now, it’s alarming how Dr. Warren deliberately keeps blackmailing Ssempa. You realise that he’s the central source from which all the other homo websites draw their information from however inaccurate it is eg “case of behaded homosexual”. Ssempa time and again has clearly expressed his opposition to the death penalty. Analysis of Dr. Warren’s posts shows that he’s not after fighting for homos in Uganda but ensuring that Ssempa’s support wherever is cut off completely. Unfortunately this may never happen because Ssempa is increasingly gaining support and popularity in Uganda and overseas.
One thing must be corrected. Before Scot Lively came to Uganda, there were numerous demonstrations against homos. You remember, Ugandans demonstrated against this vice in 2007 when we hosted CHOGM. Before this there were anti homo campaigns in the North and Eastern parts of the country especially in schools. Atleast I happened to have ever attended a few of them. While growing our elders passed on some traditions to us that are valuable and have helped build up our societies and homosexuality was one of the vices that was never mentioned of even. No one could do that. So when we Ugandans rise to speak do not demonise us as gay killers. No we are not. We speak what our cultures and consciences appreciate. We only want to eliminate unacceptable pest trying to chew up our cherised values. It’s like if your home is attacked by bugs you fumigate the whole place to ensure that no bag remains.
We are not Gay Killers, we only can not allow the disease in our nation Uganda.
Thank you.
Kankaka Edward Nelson, I am not an evangelical christian, but I am Ugandan. I agree that our culture should be preserved from unwanted western influences. Propaganda is a key asset of the Euro-American Gay Lobby. How do you think they were able to acquire so much support in the West and grow so powerful? How did they convince many people in the West that “gays were born that way ” even though there isn’t a shred of CREDIBLE scientific evidence to back that up? All we Ugandans need to do is remain steadfast and refuse to be intimidated—Its as simple as that !!
KEN – Martin Ssempa recommended the removal of the death sentence in late December after he fully supported it in October. What changed from October to December?
You may think 20 years in a rehab facility is enlightened but I do not. Canyon Ridge failed to tell its people that they are donating money to support a part-time campaigner for harsher sentences than currently exist for lesser crimes.
It is amazing how the western media is so hysterical and so infected with gross misrepresentation of African values, the church and pastors.
I am a witness of Martin ssempa’s passionate commitment to change of lives. We down here in Uganda know the truth and what Canyon ridge says is true.
Ssempa has been wrongly coined a homo killer. The truth is that he defends african values and the truth of the bible. He calls homos to repentance. We have some former homosexuals and lesbians in our church whose lives have been transformed. None has been killed. They have been told the plain truth and reached out to in love unto repentance and being what God meant them to be.
Martin Ssempa clearly recommended the emission of the proposed death sentence and lighter punishment, but mantaining the stand that sodomy is evil.
The state has its duty to award justice, the church to call people unto repentance, and culture to maintain our handed-down beliefs. This creates continuity.
The west is hiding under human rights to push sodomy down our throats and bring a terrible curse in our land.
I will not call upon you all to be fair coz u may not, but i mantain that you are completely wrong in demonizing ssempa martin. WE KNOW THE TRUTH!
Rather dissappointing that they are not relying on sources other than what Ssempsa tells them. Their attitude is representative of an attitude I am seeing in much of Christianity …. Re: if its anti-gay .. its OK
Similar to what Lynn David said above.. are they in favor of criminalizing ALL sexual activity ouside of marriage .. or just certain activities that they will never do?
Forget the obvious, the homosexuality… does Canyon Ridge Christian Church think that all sexual practice outside of marriage and outside of that singular conjoined act which would possibly lead to a pregnancy should be outlawed by countries? This seems to me to be what they are promoting via Ssempa. If so are they then also against the use of condoms, birth control pills, and other preventatives for pregnancy? Are they seeking to promote such be included in the several states’ civil codes?
But then the main point is that no one at CRCC sees the sneering, leering, the hate-filled speech that Ssempa has effected over the last couple of years.