Of course he does.
This story is all over but I wanted to get us talking about it as well. Here is the AP video of the story.
I hope to find a way to see the documentary without getting HBO. What Mr. Haggard is doing by striving to maintain his marriage vows is an honorable effort. He is giving voice to many who remain same-sex attracted while in heterosexual marriages. There are many marriages like this which fail but others remain intact.
79 thoughts on “Ted Haggard still struggles with his sexuality”
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@ Tim,
Well said.
@Jayhuck,
…your ability to step around others responses and stick to your assertions is exemplary.
I agree with you, Warren. The man doesn’t necessarily have a problem with his wife because he is attracted to other men. His particular problem may be somewhere else, with sensation seeking. There are probably many SSA-ed married men who are attracted to their wives but are average or low on sensation seeking, which makes them unlikely to act on impulses.
On the other hand, I will have to disagree about the bisexual term (or Bem’s ‘discordant for one’s orientation’, for that matter). I like Sven Bocklandt’s logic more:
That means, to me, that there is no bisexuality either. These labels come from how behaviours have been classified over time and don’t say much about individual people’s attractions to individuals. Thus, if a person was quantitatively attracted to a greater number of individual men or women, she/he was termed according to the relation between their genders (opposite or same). But men and women are not generic in real life, like they appear in categories. Their ‘genderness’ is expressed in individual characteristics and people are attracted to particular people, but not to all men or women. I think we will learn that labels have a statistical reality and that’s all. But, as we know, individual behaviours cannot be predicted from statistical inferences. Therefore, arguing that someone is primarily attracted to one gender because they respond to a greater number of same-sex individuals and a smaller number of opposite-sex individuals will not predict their behaviour or sexual identity. In real life environment individuals use their sexual potential with particular people, not with gender categories. In this understanding, there is room for more or less choice for each individual, depending on the individuals they meet and relate to.
So it doesn’t practically matter to one’s life if statistically they are more attracted to one gender or another, as long as they can have a functional relationship with the person they choose and vice versa. On the contrary, labels can and probably have done some damage to individual lives forcing people to try to live up to labels when they could have more simply accepted and have been accepted for the choices they made.
To all – Mr. Haggard may be bisexual; he may be what I have termed “spousosexual” in that he is quite attracted to his wife and no other woman, even while he remains attracted to men, experiencing that side as a struggle.
If the sexual side of the relationship exists parallel to the same-sex desire, then the situation would be more favorable for the marriage long term.
Jayhuck,
Again the duplicity is amazing!
Earlier today you agreed that no one has documentation that not staying with his family was best.
How dare you say you have dealt with these issues. YOU HAVE NOT DEALT WITH THE ISSUES THAT FACE MR. HAGGARD.
That you have slept with married men does not mean that you have slept with all married men who have SSA. And you do not know what is best.
You do have some arrogance sitting in this discussion saying you have the only true insight and have disregarded the insight that TH brings to the table. HIS OWN. Those who support him are doing just that supporting him in his decision and not trying to get him to do something that would meet my particular interests alone. Geez!!! Who are you?? Really? Who are you to pontificate about what is best for this man, his family etc…
Have you been married, had children, left your wife and children for being gay??
My goodness, your flip floppiness is astoundingly agile.
Will it ever occur to you that maybe, JUST MAYBE, other people view their lives through a different lense than the one that sees sexuality as the ONLY guiding factor in decisions etc…?
I wish the Haggards well.
If a same-sex attracted man and a woman wish to stay together for the kids, or for companionship, or for religious conviction, I really don’t care as long as they are honest with themselves and each other. I’m sure many people do and for some neither sex nor sexuality are that important.
However, I think that this may be difficult for Ted Haggard. His history shows that he’s not particularly good at being honest with anyone and I’m sure his wife views him quite differently than before.
Personally, I’m guessing that this is a situation wherein it would be best for the two of them to go their own ways after the kids are out of the house. If he’s finding men attractive and she’s feeling undesired, that’s an awful lot of tension and if the bonds of friendship have been weakened by his lies over the years, there may be nothing left to save.
But, it’s their lives and I hope they find one that works for them.
Whelp, there is nothing left for me to say after that. Tim is right on the money.
We’ve been discussing their choice this entire thread – I’m not sure what your point is – but I am aware of what we are discussing 🙂
Whew. That’s a relief. My Christmas spirit just reached it’s threshhold.
Yes Eddy – I’m well aware of that!
Yes there can be two parents without them being married. But this blog topic isn’t about a fictional situation, it’s about a real life one. Two people who have been married for years and who have five children. It’s about them and the choice they’ve made.
Let me rephrase that first sentence – both Ted and his wife can be involved loving parents in their children’s lives without them being under the same roof – I never suggested that the kids only had to have one parent.
Eddy,
There can be TWO parents without them being married – LOL – how many times do I have to say that. Isn’t it enough though that I agreed with you above that they are adults and they can make decisions for themselves. I see great problems coming from children watching such a situation transpire between their parents, which is what will happen if they live together – you obviously disagree. I’m not sure there is much else to be said here
And the Haggards have decided that 2 is better than 1 in the raising of the 5 and that they’d rather not split over this issue. I don’t care to judge you; I simply want you to see how wrong it is to judge their decision.
You can Eddy – but the question I would ask you is would it be better for that child to go throughout his life with NO parents, to be taken care of by an institution or to have a father that loves him?
Jayhuck–
A few days, maybe a week ago, on another thread you mentioned that you were pursuing fatherhood. You’ve presented yourself as a single gay-identified man although celibate. Should we question the damage you could potentially cause that child (based only on ‘the facts as we see ’em’) in the same way that you have questioned the Haggard’s?
Mary,
Apparently you missed my comment above where I said I had nothing more to say to you. I’m tired of writing things to you and having you take them out of context, not understand them, put your own interpretation on them and most of all leveling the LOOP DE LOOP claim against me.
Jayhuck,
You admit to Warren that you do not have any documenting support for TH’s decision. All you have is your own expereince – which by the way is not shared by all.
You then go back to your “poor, poor Ted, he will ruin his family over this” scenario. Again, without any documentation.
You have no idea what it is like to go through the expereince that he is having. And you have chosen to accpet your life as a gay man who does not have sex with men. You call yourself gay and have decided to never marry a woman. And you think this is best for another person??
Your duplicity is amazing. In less than a day you have spoken one thing and turned around and spoken the oppsite.
Who are you really?
A gay man who is supporting his own position or a man who supports another man in his theological decisions.
You like so many gay activists want others to see things your way only.
You still have not answered the question…. If gays can re-define gay marriage, can not a man or woman with same sex attraction re-define how they will live and define themselves???
Isn’t TH deserving of his own choice to define himself instead of by your standards and your “expereince” Not everyone is name d Jayhuck and not everyone who has SSA must decide to leave their wife. And you did not sleep with every man who has SSA – just some – the ones who made different choices.
Eddy,
That is absolutely true! We cannot really know anything. We don’t know if what they are doing will help or harm their children in the long run. We cannot know if Ted and his wife’s choice to stay together, at the least for the time being, will help or harm either of them. And you are also right that they are adults and can do whatever it is that they want – and I indeed hope they have given such a decision the prayer and counsel it deserves!
Ted’s filming a documentary that will be aired on HBO, his wife is certainly aware of that and what he is saying. It is obvious from this that she joins him in the choice to continue the marriage. There is so much more to a marriage than sex–and if the two of them figure out how to maximize those other areas–they can have a very good life without bringing emotional harm to their children. And, what is it? 5 children I believe? While Ted may contend with sexual attractions for men, it’s obvious that he is capable of sexual response to his wife. Will it be the best sex either of them ever had or could have, maybe not….but, then again, maybe so. We blogsite judges cannot know. They came through a time of severe test and strain on their marriage and their individual psyches (Ted needs a bit more with that loser talk.) and they have jointly come to this decision. They are adults; they have arrived at their decision via prayer, conversation and counsel; they have more awareness of their family dynamics than any of us do. I offer them my encouragement and support.
David,
I’ve already dealt with these issues above. I love how some are championing his staying in the marriage without appearing taking into consideration all the possible harm that such an action could have on the spouse and the children. Is it fair to the spouse? I Ted’s wife has agreed to this then I’m not one that should question her, but really, the children bother me in such a marriage. Marriage is NOT required for them to be effective parents, or to remain good and caring friends, and I don’t believe working on his struggle with SSA is best done in a marriage. But again, that’s just my opinion
I think it would be more appropriate to say that gay love for the SSA man may not be true love (whatever that means) just as straight love may not be true love for the OSA man – now does that make ANY sense? LOL
Jayhuck:
Is repression wrong?
Unhealthy?
Who is arguing such a point?
Is expression right?
Is expression healthy?
Which part of our true nature are we supposed to repress and which part are we supposed to express…in order to be healthy? Who determines this?
If a married man sleeps with a gay lover, how is that any less irresponsible and exploitative than a married man sleeping with his girlfriend. Both may protest how unhappy they are in their marriage to their lovers; but may actually be doing this to facilitate the seduction and exploitation.
When a man renounces his lover (whether gay or straight) and returns to his marriage, he may have done so to stop hurting everyone involved (lover, wife, kids and finally, himself).
Gay love, for the SSA man, may not be true love; Just as polygamist love for the OSA man, may not be true love.
Jayhuck–
What point were you trying to make? That Ted made the wrong decision. That it isn’t right to stay together for the kids. Those are valid opinions. They should be added to the pot and considered along with all the others. Okay? You with me so far?
Now, when you take those opinions and address them to a specific person, saying “he should just be her FRIEND” and leave her…since your point is counter to hers and directed at her…it appears that you’re saying “your arguments don’t fly and this is why”. Still with me? It doesn’t come off as simply an opinion on the other side of the coin; it comes off like a rebuttal to or a rejection of those comments.
I’m wondering if possibly you direct your comments at a particular person simply because they are the one that provoked the opinions you’re expressing–not realizing that it reads like a rebuttal rather than just a counter opinion. Possible?
(I do realize that I’m dialoguing with you. Chalk it up to Christmas spirit.)
As Carole stated, attraction is not always sexual.
Eddy,
You were right about the fact that I didn’t give her post the time or attention it deserved. Although this still doesn’t take away from the point I tried to make.
You’re welcome??? 🙂
Jayhuck:
Thanks for your follow-up post to Carole. 🙂
Mary,
I have nothing more to say to you – you refuse to listen to what people say and instead put your own interpretation on their words – several of us have noticed this. So be happy – no more “loop de loop” as you say 🙂
Carole,
I agree with you that marriages mean different things to different people. There are traditional marriages, open marriages, marriages that involve a gay man and a lesbian so that they can lay claim to marriage benefits while leading separate lives – And I agree that we’ve all been brainwashed with ideas of love by Hollywood and even fairytales – but I think what should underpin an opposite-sex marriage is attraction on some level. I don’t know if Ted has any of those kinds of feelings for his wife, perhaps he does – but I see a great many problems resulting from his being gay and trying to maintain the marriage. I don’t see that they need the marriage to remain friends and good parents. I guess I idealize marriage to a certain extent and expect some passion and romance to be there, even if its not on a Hollywood type level. I also can’t imagine what kind of effect this kind of relationship might have on kids or even be subtly teaching them about marriage – marriages shouldn’t be completely passionless, and you don’t need to be in a marriage to remain close and to be good parents. I guess time will tell
No Jayhuck – you do not agree with me since you stated that TH’s family would be better off without him as the husband and father.
Please stop the loop de loop.
You may read any previous post you have written on this topic of TH for documentation.
As far as I know, Carole is a newcomer here. She’s been following comments for a few days and finally decided to join in on the discussion. I apologized to her because the very first (and only) response she had received to her thoughtful and heartfelt comments didn’t even acknowledge a single one of the points she made AND I wanted people to be sure to read her comments so it was a ‘shout out’ to folks who were just checking in not to miss some thought provoking comments. Color me guilty!
Eddy,
I am glad you pointed out the array of comments. Carole’s information is accurate, documentable, and supported.
into – in
Eddy,
Your opinion and statements about me most definitely border on the dogmatic, if not the ignorant – And you keep missing or rather side-stepping my point while you so gallantly rush into to apologize for me! OY
Carole,
Marriage for most of histroy has not been about romantic love. This is a recent luxury. Have you ever read Stephanie Coontz (sp?/) books on marriage etc… While she has a liberal view, I find her research and historical work amazing.
I think you will, too!! You’re spot on the issues of marriage, it’s organization, social utility, romantic love/sex etc…
I respect TH for his struggle, his transparency of late on this very personal issue. I also repsect his family and their decisions.
TH is not a loser. He is a man of honor.
dogmatic
asserting opinions in an authoritative, positive or arrogant manner; positive; opinionated
So Carole checks in at 2:49 AM and posts a well-thought, well-constructed history of marriage, the distinction between love and sex, examples of marriages that aren’t based on sex, real reasons why people might choose to remain in a marriage. (On my computer, it’s several screens full.)
And at 4:10 AM Jayhuck chucks it all with “Carole, If he’s not attracted to his wife, he should be her FRIEND.” Evidently there are ‘many, many’ who have divorced, moved on and it’s working for them. Conclusion: It’s wrong to stay in a marriage for the kids.
Does not address a single point, a single allusion, any of her examples, just directs his opinion/conclusion at her. My goodness, I was trying to think of a word for what I was feeling when I first read that dismissive ‘rebuttal’…oh, yeah, ‘outrage’. Dismissing what must have taken over an hour to write with nothing more than opinion and not speaking to even one of her thoughtful points. I think it’s the darkside of dogmatic.
I agree with you Mary – Kids do need their parents!!! 🙂
Warren,
That children need their Dad is sooooo important.
Evan,
I didn’t see the point in it – LOL 🙂
Try harder. I’m not going to explain twice. 🙂
Next time, I’ll refrain from further replies. You have a peculiar sense of dialogue. I know you can do better, so I suppose you do not want to.
If Haggard doesn’t want to pursue a same-sex relationship outside his marriage, that is fine too – I don’t believe he has to be in one – but that was never the point of my original post anyway – marriage for marriage’s sake seems ridiculously unhealthy – Good grief – LOL
Your original post started out:
and ended with a non-sequitur – marriage for marriage sake.
The first idea is that somehow suppressing desires is inherently bad and the second does not follow from the first.
I do not think marriage is the proper course for all. But Mr. Haggard is already in a marriage with children who need him to be their dad. He is far from being a loser in that he takes those commitments seriously and seeks to honor them.
Men and women who keep commitments should be honored in my opinion.
Warren,
That first response was a general reply to that OLD argument that suppressing your true feelings is good – I personally don’t think it is! But that has to do when one is trying to pretend to be something one is not – I was not speaking directly to the ascetic denial of one’s passions. Its one thing to keep commitments, as long as both people understand what is at stake, its another to do so when that action could potentially harm children. Couching this in “honoring commitments” detracts from what could be very real harm done to all involved. If he wants to keep his desires in check, that is fine – I don’t think he should do that within the confines of an opposite-sex marriage. But that is my opinion – I know others disagree. What I’m NOT saying is that
Carole,
Don’t believe everything you read, and the term “dogmatic” can be applied to many on here – and some feel the need to misrepresent others because they differ with them
This is not what I said and it is not what I meant. My question is is it really good for children to watch a gay father struggle to make a marriage work with someone they are not attracted to. Its a fine thing to practice asceticism – I think Christianity calls us to do that on many levels, I am simply not of the mind that it is good or healthy for Haggard, or any other gay man for that matter, to do that within an opposite-sex marriage – because you are not only involving yourself in that situation, you are bringing others into the equation. It would seem better for his wife and children if he did this as a single individual. I cannot see how this is healthy for his kids – but Warren is right here, there is no clinical evidence that it is unhealthy, so until we know for sure I suppose we simply keep discussing the issue.
I didn’t say that I don’t value Haggard’s suppressions. I am open to the idea that perhaps it is best for him to remain married (and faithful) to his wife and kids.
@Patrick:
You could argue many angles of this but I think the one that I rarely see directly addressed is the basic issue of suppression being valued in Christianity. The truth is we all suppress urges, desires, strong feelings. However, those suppressions are valued and so we find ways to justify them. You do not value the suppressions engaged in by Mr. Haggard. I suspect he might not value some of yours.
Eddy,
Well said. For so many of us who do not see SSA as a wonderful thing in our live we learn to say no in order to experience a much fuller life. This is difficult at times and it becomes most difficult when these dogmatics that you speak of insist on convincing us and others that there is no happiness outside of gay relationships. This is such hogwash and it causes many married people much pain. If only the dogmatics could just learn to accept that not everyone sees the world through there rose colored glasses.
@Eddy:
Well said. A similar discussion is occuring on a listserv of sexuality researchers I am on. These folks seem to have little trouble understanding the difference between impulse and action. Values do not directly inform impulses. However, whatever our impulses, however natural they seem, they do not require an action. Faithfulness to one partner, one calling, one anything requires saying no to something else.
Carole–
Thanks for your thoughtful contributions to the discussion. Some will actually read them and consider them. Unfortunately, you encountered one of our dogmatics on the way in.
All of your arguments and reasoning are automatically trumped by the dogmatic belief that if you have same sex attractions, they rule your life and every decision you make. Without knowing anything about what values do exist in Haggard or his family–without any regard for the values that the Haggard’s believe it is best to reinforce in their children–the dogmatics declare that there is only one right choice for Haggard to make. He must leave his marriage and embrace his homosexual feelings. The dogmatics have declared that for him to do otherwise will be more negative for his children than the breakup the marriage. Skip the fact that no studies exist that support this belief…it sounds right to the dogmatics and that makes it fact.
Well you could argue that OSA isn’t being repressed – afterall a straight man in a straight marriage is still able to satisfy his OSA. Whereas a gay man obviously cannot satisfy their SSA needs at all.
The straight guy may not be attracted to his wife anymore. Should he think about other women while having sex with his wife? You could argue the same about Haggard.
Evan,
Don’t wait for an answer. That person has allowed himself to accuse others without answering for himself many times over. He’s made a name for himself in this manner. Not his ideas but his action of not answering anyone who confronts him.
On an unrelated note, Haggard’s wife is a good-looking woman. She must have had magnetic looks if this guy asked her to marry him years ago. According to Wikipedia, they’re both into studying psychology right now. There’s something about people these days that psychology is becoming some kind of a trend.
Jayhuck,
You didn’t reply to what I said. :-):lol:
Let’s see – Ted sees himself as a loser and this is somehow good for his kids – LOL
Evan,
Oh please!!!! LOL
Carole,
If he’s not attracted to his wife, he should be her FRIEND. MANY , MANY gay men have divorced their wives, staid great friends with them, retained loving relationships with their children and pursued romantic relationships that are much more fulfilling on several levels.
I don’t know Haggard – I feel sorry for him, and its sad that he refers to himself as a loser. I wouldn’t want to be him for the world. I hope he attains some sort of happiness soon – but I don’t believe its right to stay married for marriages sake only – children and others suffer when this happens – children know when things are wrong/broken.
This guy would have probably cheated on his wife if he was straight too. I don’t think his SSAs made him do it. Lots of stuff can happen in a family that can affect kids’ growing up. It’s not their dads’ sexual feelings for men that would hurt them as much as domestic fights, indifferent parents, abuse, neglect, exposure to unhealthy patterns of behaviour. So I don’t think that the kind of sexual feelings this guy had was the main problem. If repression of sexual feelings would have caused him great distress and put his marriage on the rocks, then the same should apply to other straight men, whose repression of sexual feelings for women other than their wives that they don’t find attractive anymore should make them unfit parents or profoundly unhappy. Maybe repression of SSAs is more distressful than repression of OSAs, you could argue.
I haven’t followed this Haggard story–didn’t even know who he was–but over the last two days, I have read the variety of comments here.
What struck me is how some seem to be viewing one man’s experience (and by extension, the experience of his wife and children) in terms of a very limited view of marriage.
In most of the world, romantic love and yes, romantic lust (I hope that’s not an oxymoron) are not the primary goals of marriage. To many, marriage is a social institution meant to give stability to the nuclear and extended families and to the whole village or to the society as a whole. This is true not only of small tribes in the Pacific Islands, for example, but true in many places in the Western word, Spain, Italy, etc. It’s_ true_here_too!
Think of our own “American culture.” Whether we think of our culture in a generic sense or whether we break it down into ,say, ethnic and culturally defined smaller units, surely we all must acknowledge that millions of people in our own country do not marry for the very idealized romantic love that we see portrayed in Hollywood films.
Yes, there are many of us who have been raised on that concept, believe in it, pursued it, and have been fantastically lucky enought to attain it, but I think, based on many of the comments I have read here, that many have forgotten that to much of the world and to many in our own country, the concept of romantic love as the basis of a marriage is not necessarily the primary basis of the marriage. For some couples, it was from the very beginning; for others, it never was; then again, for some, it was at first, but has evolved over time.
I hope this doesn’t shock you. It certainly shouldn’t. While in most of the world marriages are still arranged, yes, even in much of the West, something similar happens here in the U.S. in that many men and women choose to marry people who may not “light their fire” as much as we assume. Many find traits in their eventual mates that they respect; they find mates whom they believe will make devoted and loving parents for their children; they find mates who can financially or in other ways economically contribute to the nuclear family; they find mates who will be devoted partners in life.
You don’t think, do you , that most people are living a “Sleepless in Seattle” movie finale, do you?
How many women stay married to men because they respect that man, honor him, even though that man is not so hot in the marriage bed? I think women who talk to women probably know the answer to that question. Gotta tell ya, guys, a woman’s anatomy, yes, her anatomy, requires that a man learn a few things and yes, she is also responsible for helping him learn, but surely you don’t think that heterosexual couples always stay married because their sex lives are so great, do you? Do you think every man who has a wife who is not as physically responsive as he would like should just leave her and find a woman who can help him live his life “more freely” and true to what he would like? How about when one partner grows fat and not as physically attractive as he or she once was? How about when a guy goes fat and bald? When the physical changes occur and our spouses may not “light our fire,” should we all run to the divorce courts?
If all the women in the world whose dreams/fantasies of the fulfillment of their physical desires are not being met by their husbands were to seek a divorce, I believe the courts couldn’t hold them.
Seriously, consider marriage from a wider perspective and then maybe you can understand why this man would want to keep his marriage together.
So, he’s gay. He’s not turned on physically by his wife? Is that what you are saying? Well, look at the world!!!!! You don’t think there might be other reasons he finds his union with his wife to be comforting, life-giving?
If not him, what about all the others in the world ? All the others for whom the Hollywood version of love is seen as silly?
Are you saying that the physical is really all there is to marriage? Can people be true to other values they hold dear and find that their needs based on those values can provide them with comfort , dignity and fullness in life?
Maybe this Haggart guy has those other needs and they are equal to or they surpass the desires of the flesh. How would you know all his needs?
If you think you do, that implies that you believe that married people stay together because their sex lives are great. Wow. That’s naive. A successful marriage is many things to many people.
This is the root of the problem. 😎 I live in Europe, but no one is safe from Hollywodd movies anywhere.
I say that place must burn down to the ground, culturally speaking. Too many people living on phantasms.
Carole, Thank you! Well said! Each of us persons is so unique, and for those of us who are in a marriage, each of those marriages is also unique. I agree that a couple’s decision to stay together, or not, is, after all counsel and advice and prayer, theirs alone. So, if I like their decision, so what? If I disagree with their decision, so what? Who the heck am I? They are not personal friends of mine, I don’t even know these people, and I am not a part of their lives. And even if I was, I would still mainly pray because I certainly can’t tell another couple what is best for them. What you’ve said is quite right. Each couples decision to stay together or not is their own for their own reasons. (It doesn’t sound to me like theirs is one of those situations where CPS needs to come in and take the kids away.) The kids will have to deal with this issue whether their parents stay together or not. Well said, Carole! Thank you!
It is regrettable that he thinks of himself as a loser. I appreciate his newfound humility and ability to be forthcoming. I was afraid that he’d claim to be cured or miraculously delivered but he didn’t. He still reckons with the homosexual feelings and he weighs them against his belief(s) in God and his commitment to and love for his family. After weighing, he chose the latter. I commend him.
His wife wasn’t sheltered from the interview so she knows who she’s remaining committed to. It’s their marriage, their family, their individual futures…they weighed things out and chose the marriage for the sake of the family. It won’t be an easy road but it’s the one they believe will be the best for them and their children. As a brother in Christ, I can only wish them God’s best in guidance, comfort and strength.
Hey Ted! You are NOT a loser!
Jayhuck & William —
Married straight men have strong feelings for other women too and they are denying their identity by not acting on their feelings, when they should follow their nature and abandon marriage. After all, physical attraction doesn’t last long with one wife. Let’s look at what biology says about us men and go for that, stick to the facts. What a wonderful world would that be…
WOW – no one forces TH to do anything. That’s obvious by the way he chose to have an adulterous affair. If he CHOOSES to stay with his wife – it is because he CHOOSES. She will also choose whether or not to stay in the marriage since she does have a biblical reason for divorce.
What is sad is that people think that the way a person FEELS about sex is the most important item on another person’s mind, life, agenda, etc… TH has obviously spoken volumes about the way he FEELS about his family. And obviously that is important to him.
The “Do it if it feels good” psychology of sexual behavior has also ruined many families and lives.
No marriage cures gay anymore than macho training and football. But acting out on gay feelings is not good for every person or soul. Some people really do choose an alternative lifestyle of staying in a marriage, working on sexuality and attitudes/behaviors/thoughts etc …
Why is it that many gay people believe that only a gay lifestyle or acting out on sexual fantasies/thoughts/ attitudes etc…. is THE ONLY WAY TO GO????
Why can a person not choose to live a different way than the same old prescription of if you feel it, youmust be it, if you must be it, you must live it, if you live it you must act it program….
There are 6.4 billion people in the world or thereabouts???? And is anyone going to tell me that they all act on their feelings??? Some people choose to be more disciplined and curtail some of their own peccadiloes whether those are booze, girls, boys, gambling, anger etc…. all things that can be traced to genetics
TH it sounds like to me has made a choice about what is important to him.
WOW – no one forces TH to do anything. That’s obvious by the way he chose to have an adulterous affair. If he CHOOSES to stay with his wife – it is because he CHOOSES. She will also choose whether or not to stay in the marriage since she does have a biblical reason for divorce.
What is sad is that people think that the way a person FEELS about sex is the most important item on another person’s mind, life, agenda, etc… TH has obviously spoken volumes about the way he FEELS about his family. And obviously that is important to him.
The “Do it if it feels good” psychology of sexual behavior has also ruined many families and lives.
No marriage cures gay anymore than macho training and football. But acting out on gay feelings is not good for every person or soul. Some people really do choose an alternative lifestyle of staying in a marriage, working on sexuality and attitudes/behaviors/thoughts etc …
Why is it that many gay people believe that only a gay lifestyle or acting out on sexual fantasies/thoughts/ attitudes etc…. is THE ONLY WAY TO GO????
Why can a person not choose to live a different way than the same old prescription of if you feel it, youmust be it, if you must be it, you must live it, if you live it you must act it program….
There are 6.4 billion people in the world or thereabouts???? And is anyone going to tell me that they all act on their feelings??? Some people choose to be more disciplined and curtail some of their own peccadiloes whether those are booze, girls, boys, gambling, anger etc…. all things that can be traced to genetics
TH is osunds like to me has made a choice ab
@William: Can you cite evidence that ending his marriage raising his kids as a divorced gay man is better for him or his kids?
You can look if you’d like but there isn’t any. Nor do we have studies which make it clear that staying married is best for all. These are essential moral decisions which he has made for now.
I can tell you from the research I did this summer and will be reported in 2009 that a good number of men I surveyed are happy with their choice to remain married. Whether it is best for kids or wives I do not know.
Given what we know about divorce, it is at least plausible that his choice has some merit for his family.
In any event, for outsiders to say they know what is best for him and his family is hubris.
William,
Well, this is one way of looking at it but certainly not the only way.
Judging only by this short clip:
1. He does not claim to be heterosexual
2. He did not come out due to fear of family and community judgment
3. He still struggles with his feelings for men
4. He stayed married only for the children
And you think this is a good thing? And you can site experts who think this is a good thing? Are these the same people who think they can cure gayness?
@William: Whatever homosexuality is (you apparently know more than the top researchers in this field), it does not require a person to act outside his chosen values.
His perception of being a loser may relate to a host of events and not his choice to maintain his marriage and father his children in the home. He clearly has fallen from a high place. However, his religious tradition is all about redemption and forgiveness and new mercies every morning. In time, I pray he experiences the redemption and restoration he has available.
Not being gay, Warren, I have no idea what his experience might be. I do know that people who try to live in opposition to their true nature (and being gay is a biological trait, not a choice) tend to be very unhappy people – and they make those around them very unhappy.
Even Ted feels that he is a loser – so, is that the model of Christianity you want to embrace? Is being Christian about being miserable because your community can’t or won’t allow you to be yourself?
What would Jesus do?
Not as sorry as I feel for those who do not recognize that they are lost.
To whom is this comment directed ?
I agree with you Patrick! I do feel sorry for him
You know I probably don’t agree with Ted Haggard about much – but you just have to feel sorry for someone who refers to themselves as a loser.
Forcing a gay man to live a life he was not born to live is NOT honorable, it’s sad and ignorant. He can still be a good father as a divorced gay man. He is teaching his kids, and those who still might look to him as a role model, that it is good to deny your true identity because a 2,000 year old book tells you that you will go to hell because of the way “God” made you. My guess is that living a lie is as close to hell as he will ever get.
Peace,
Bill
Jayhuck and William – So your experience is the standard by which Ted Haggard and orther SSA heterosexually married men should measure their honor and integrity?
It isn’t for me so it isn’t for anyone, you say?
Warren,
This testimony will speak to far more people than those who want to deny him the right to stay in his marriage will ever know. He will work through his difficulties as long as he has learned the importance of being open and honest with those who really do care for him and his family and in doing so he will be an important model for many others who may be struggling alone.
Yes – the message is suppress your true feelings for what society or religion says you should be – the oldest and most debilitating message to give to gay people – yikes. Ted’s is a story older than time. I’ve said it before and hate to admit it again, but there were so many “married” men that I slept with in my time, and they all wished they hadn’t married. So I guess its marriage for marriage’s sake, is it Warren? That is SO good for the spouse and the children involved right? LOL
jayhuck –
Yes, the message is deny self and follow Christ. All people have natural desires which are very strong which are to be denied. You may not like that teaching but it is a teaching of Christianity. Evan beat me to it but the parallel to males being monogamous is a good one. It may debatable but males seem to be wired to desire multiple partners. Should males do what is natural? Surely, self-denial and suppression are harmful, right?