34 thoughts on “Sally Kern meets with PFLAG”

  1. jayhuck, ever heard the phrase “presumption of maternity”? Me neither… but “presumption of paternity” is a firmly entrenched legal concept.

    Also, women seem to have constitutional “reproductive rights” that men will never have… we’re fathers if and when she says so… sometimes even if we arent even the “father” (see above)!

    Sorry friend, men and women are certainly NOT treated equally under the law… especially when it comes to family law. Which, as it so happens, is exactly what we’re discussing here when we talk about “equal marriage”…

    Separate simply isn’t.

    PS: You probably should avoid marrying someone of the opposite sex who you don’t love and aren’t attracted to. But then, nobody said you had to. Only that you can, if you want to. Same as me.

  2. Marty,

    Men and women do NOT have unequal rights under the law. I fully recognize men and women are not equal – many men are not equal to each other and many women are not equal to each other either – the point is that, under the law, we ARE treated equally.

    For me to have to marry someone of the opposite sex whom I don’t love and to whom I am not attracted would indeed be second class. Luckily, in the United States and in many other countries, I wouldn’t have to worry about that, because same-sex marriage is legal πŸ˜‰ Sorry my friend πŸ˜‰

    However, if you would like me to further denigrate marriage, I could easily marry one of my friends simply for the benefits and we could each carry on our own separate romantic lives – I already know a few gay men and women who have done this. Do you truly believe this furthers the cause of marriage?

  3. It’s very simple jayhuck.

    Men and women are not equal. Not physically, not emotionally, and certainly not legally. And that’s a good thing — men and women are just too different to be treated equally. We have different, and unequal rights, under the law.

    So, are two women equal to two men equal to a man and wife? Impossible! No more than two apples are “equal” to two oranges are “equal” to an apple and an orange.

    If you want a marriage that is equal to my own, then you’re going to have to marry the opposite sex. Sorry friend, anything else would be second-class.

  4. Marty,

    I don’t understand what you mean by separate but equal? Do you perhaps not have a good understanding of what equality under the law means? It doesn’t mean we are all EQUAL, but it does mean that we are to be treated equally. I believe your “separate but equal” argument – at least the way you like to frame it – is similar to the arguments made against interracial marriages in the past.

  5. Thanks jay. And yeah, I’ve seen the aftermath… looks a whole lot like the aftermath of far too many failed heterosexual marriages. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

    As for what you can imagine, if your imagination is limited or if the yuck factor is a problem for you, then maybe you should open your mind a bit. I have plenty of straight friends who think like you, but I don’t believe them for a minute. Then again, I’ve chosen to close my mind to the possibility… maybe you have too. We could both choose to open them.

    Meanwhile, jayhuck continues to argue for a “separate but equal” version of equality… but I’m not buying… it may work for jayhuck’s love life, but it sure seems like an injustice for the child with no father — just an extra mom.

  6. Jay,

    I truly appreciate your thoughtful insight, but its not equality we speak of when we say that gay people can marry someone of the opposite sex. Not true equality anyway.

  7. We often hear the claim:

    Gay people can marry…. just someone of the opposite sex

    But that is not factually correct. For example:

    Most clergy would refuse to marry a gay person to a heterosexual.

    The immigration service considers such a marriage to be fraud and criminal.

    The Catholic Church considers such a marriage to be grounds for annulment.

    Divorce court considers such a marriage to be fraud and the heterosexual can sue for damages.

    Employers and coworkers would consider such a marriage as an unfair abuse of the company’s benefits program.

    General society is indignant when such marriages are exposed (think Jim McGreevy)

    You would never give your blessing for your daughter to marry a gay man.

    And finally, Aunt Edna wouldn’t attend or send a gift.

    In short, a gay person marrying someone of the opposite sex results in social and financial repercussions and possibly jail.

    Those who make this claim do so as though playing some trump card. But either they have not thought this through, or they are being deliberately callous and hateful to even make such an oviously false claim.

  8. Dave G.

    As I see it, an activist is anyone who is trying to convince the general populace that GLBT, etc. is a human trait rather than human behavior.

    Well then from now on you no longer need to use the term “activist” because by that definition there is no distinction between “gay” and “activist”. I’ve never met a gay person who thinks their orientation is just a behavior and all gay folks that I know of are trying to convince the general populace that their orientation is a human trait.

    Of course, most activists are doing the convincing by quietly living their lives with integrity and honesty in front of their friends, neighbors, and family. Oh how very radical of them.

  9. By the way, the above comment should read: (which is an experience I really don’t think most straight men would agree they share). I’m sorry for the typo.

  10. Hope no one minds me cutting in here, but wow…

    Marty, you may imagine yourself loving a man (which is an experience I really don’t think most gay men would agree they share), but most SSA folk can’t imagine themselves with the opposite sex. Trust me, if they could, they would, and many have tried and failed with disastrous results.

    I certainly can’t imagine myself with a woman – and note that I’m a conservative. I believe in a traditional sexual ethic when it comes to homosexuality and I am celibate. It’s not easy though and my feelings certainly aren’t just my personal business, at least not in a Christian community where I need support. Treating this like it’s an open-and-shut case or an easy issue really doesn’t do anyone justice.

    And though my political opinions on this are somewhat up in the air, I do know that the whole “gays already have marriage equality” thing is misleading. It’s true, but if you’ve ever seen the aftermath of what happens in many cases when a gay person enters an opposite-sex marriage, you’d know that those kinds of marriages aren’t really good for anyone. We do want to promote healthy marriages, right?

  11. Jayhuck, your feelings are your own business. We are all expected to control our actions, regardless of our feelings.

    Mary, seems perfectly “fathomable” to me, and I don’t consider myself special. I just don’t give much weight to the “yuck factor”. I could imagine myself loving a man. I choose not to even consider it.

  12. Dave G,

    Imagine – just for a moment – someone telling you that you don’t have to be straight. Whatever your reaction is – I’ll bet it seems unfathomable? That’s what it feels like when you tell a gay person that they don’t have to be gay. Feelings, emotions, “behavior”, desires etc… are uniquely intertwined with our development and temperment. You don’t have the experiences that gay people do – how can you make the insinuation that it is just a behavior that can easily change like a hairstyle or a pair of shoes?

  13. Dave G –

    What do you mean by “gay”? When I say gay I equate it with predominantly SSA – most people I’ve run across do this same thing. How then can someone control their feelings?????

  14. Marty,

    That is not equality and you know it. However, I do know several gay men who have married lesbians simply for tax benefits and other purposes – they lead their own separate romantic lives.

    I am also a marriage activist Marty – and quite proud of it πŸ™‚

  15. Jay, I’m not sure that Warren’s link was the statement Ms. Kern was referring to. I don’t know that it isn’t, but am guessing that it isn’t, because I agree with you on that count.

    As for activism, yeah, i think so. I’m a marriage activist, and not ashamed to say so. And as far as marriage is concerned, you are already treated equally despite your “orientation”, not unequally because of it.

    If you want to be an activst for separate-but-equal marriage, help yourself.

  16. As I see it, an activist is anyone who is trying to convince the general populace that GLBT, etc. is a human trait rather than human behavior. All the arguments for an innate orientation omit the factor of free will. The fact stands: “You don’t have to be gay to love one another; in fact, you dont HAVE to be gay at all!” No one does.

  17. Marty,

    What is an activist? Is asking for equality under the law, activism? – if so, I think most gay people – even those simply going about their lives – would probably be considered an activist

  18. Yeah – I don’t believe its PFLAG doing the spinning here – and considering the rhetoric that has come from Miss Kern, I think we know where to point the finger.

  19. Marty, I read both your link and Warren’s several times, and I can’t for the life of me see the “spin” that Rep. Kern is speaking about. She’s denying things that were never even said about her. No one said she was “backing off” her comments about sin. Nor were they saying she supported “sexual orientation laws.” They did say that she didn’t believe gays and lesbians should be fired based on their orientation, but then in her own response article she said the same thing…

    So… It’s kind of a moot point. She isn’t so much rejecting PFLAG’s “spin” as making up “spin” and then rejecting it, and that’s hardly the same thing.

  20. Tim Kincaid: separate isn’t “equal”, no matter what your “orientation”.

    Next question.

  21. Mary: The radical “gay activists” you are talking about, (the ones who supposedly want to sexualize, indoctrinate and recruit kids, destroy the family, criminalize Christianity and overthrow the government) are to “the gay community” as the KKK is to “the caucasion community”.

    You know very well that they” don’t respresent “us”. — anymore than Phelps, Cameron, Berger, Shoenewolf, Sheldon, Kern, and their ilk represent “you” or the “Christian” community.

  22. The problem isn’t with ordinary gay and lesbian families, quietly going about their lives. The problem is with the activists who claim to represent them. They are the ones who are working to sexualize children, undermine the importance of the natural family, and impugn traditional religious values.

    I agree. The problem is with those who continue to push the lies about the gay gene or that no one has changed their life…

    Guys you are just flat wrong. Completely wrong.

    I know it makes it easier to oppose equality if you think that the only people working for it are “activists” who want to “sexualize children”. But that isn’t the case.

    Those quiet ordinary gay and lesbian families want marriage equality and the right to defend their country and access to health insurance and hate crimes tracking. They don’t want teachers besmirching gays. They don’t want discrimination in housing or employment.

    Quiet ordinary gay folks want everything that you so adamantly object to. They want equality.

    So the next time you find it necessary to wail and moan about the horrible “homosexual agenda”, please remember that you are not talking about “radical homosexual activists” You are actually talking about your neighbor and the girl who bags your groceries and the lady at the post office and the boy who cuts your lawn.

    Because while the gay community is vastly diverse, no gay folks want to be treated badly.

  23. Mary,

    It seems like you’re upset by my aggressive and mocking stance toward your malicious and primitive religion.

  24. Mary is right. Propaganda is a two way street. Just because something is based on a “stereotype” doesn’t mean it isn’t true far more often than it is false. Stereotypes aren’t invented in a vacuum.

    You can stereotype Evangelicals while I stereotype Gays, and we’ll both be right more often that we are both (quite often in fact) wrong.

  25. Chuck,

    You can search through this blog and find many examples of gays calling christians plenty of names and telling them that they are not worthy of the God they call on. Whatever- the name calling and redemtpion spewing comes from both sides.

  26. Marty,

    I agree. The problem is with those who continue to push the lies about the gay gene or that no one has changed their life to something much better than it once was and that all religious people are bigotted because they refuse to see things the way the gay activists see them. The problem is with the very vocal, in your face groups that want to parade on our streets every summer telling us we have no choice but to accept their message of preversion and indecency. The problem is with a media that seems to want to paint these people as somehow being victimized while others who are trying to live their lives as best they can are being ignored. The problem is with those who want to go into our schools and tell our children that their parents do not know what they are talking about and they should only listen to the stories they are telling, rather than the stories of someone who is not living with their same-sex partner but has choosen to remain with his own family and try to make it work even though society is being convinced that it cannot be done. The problem is that there are those who will tolerate these injustices as long as it means their right are being recognized.

  27. The problem isn’t with ordinary gay and lesbian families, quietly going about their lives. The problem is with the activists who claim to represent them. They are the ones who are working to sexualize children, undermine the importance of the natural family, and impugn traditional religious values.

  28. Talking with gay people and their families and listening to their stories, hopes and dreams might change some of her attitudes about them. I suppose the same thing could be said of the negative attitudes some of us have about β€œconservative Christians”.

    True. Only difference is, I’ve never been in the habit of telling “conservative Christians” how to conduct their personal lives like their spiritual redemption depended on it.

  29. Kern says she Kern “would consider meeting other families with GLBT loved ones in her district .”

    Now there’s a concept! Actually sitting down with and talking to families with a “GLBT loved one”. Heck, if she opened her eyes, I am sure Kern might just find a “loved one” in her own family.

    And actually talking with gay people and their families and listening to their stories, hopes and dreams might change some of her attitudes about them. Of course, I suppose the same thing could be said of the negative attitudes some of us have about “conservative Christians”.

  30. Will wonders never cease? Maybe there is some small ray of hope for Sally Kern after all. I’ve said it before: All she has to do is get out more, meet and get to know her Lesbian & Gay constituents a little bit better … rather than just parroting James Dobson and Peter Labarbera.

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