Exodus International turns full focus on ministry, away from public policy

I welcome this announcement – Exodus President Alan Chambers disclosed on ExgayWatch this evening that Exodus let their Director of Government Affairs go in August, 2007 and is going to concentrate on ministry.  His personal blog contains additional personal reflections on a recent thread at XGW authored by Wendy Gritter, Director of New Direction ministry.  Early in February, I was pleased to highlight Wendy’s keynote address at the Exodus Leadership Conference where she called for a change of focus at Exodus.

I believe additional shifts called for by Mrs. Gritter would be helpful, including steps to make resources more scientifically accurate. For now, I wholeheartedly commend the leadership of Exodus for these moves.

71 thoughts on “Exodus International turns full focus on ministry, away from public policy”

  1. Nemario: EXODUS is, once again, mincing words here. Spinning them and redfining them so they don’t really have to “change” anything. Typical EXODUS. You suggest that it’s not politics, but “fighting against the onslaught of pro-homosexual reforms”.

    “Fighting against reforms” sure sounds “poltical” to me. In fact, one of the stated puposes of the Arlington group is poltical activism and lobbying. Even Alan Chambers admits the group “is political”.

    Remaining an active member of this right wing, conservative Republican political group is contrary to what Alan said EXODUS would do and contrary to what EXODUS’s keynote speaker, Wendy Gritter urged EXODUS leadership to do — namely “make a clean break with politics”.

    If Alan meant that EXODUS “would not do anymore direct lobbying but would stay a member of a group that is undeniably political”, he should have said that. In the same way that he should not use words like “former homosexual;” unless he is one. It gives the impression that EXODUS is lyinig.

  2. In regards to politics, I’m sure what they mean is that while as a ministry they will not do any direct lobbying for political action, but by remaining a member of this group acknowledge as a Christian organization the relevance of fighting against the onslaught of pro-homosexual reforms to the Judeo-Christian tradition in this country.

  3. Perhaps you have to understand that words like “straight” and “homosexual” are simply not relevant terms to people who have recovered from the ‘gay’ lifestyle. They simply don’t accept “homosexual” as a scientific term, as if it’s inherent and final in deciding someone’s life. It’s unfortunate that the words were ever even created. It wouldn’t create the societal impression that if someone may for some reason have those kinds of feelings at a time in one’s life that they then have to live by them, kindof like the person who recently emailed Warren.

  4. Looks like Warren may have reported this one prematurely: “Exodus International turns full focus on ministry, away from public policy”. Hardly. Think I will wait to strap on the old ice skates. Hell hasn’t frozen over yet. The headline should have been — “EXODUS says it will get out of politics” — but, come on, you know how EXODUS is about really saying what it means and really doing what is says.” It’s just another empty promise.

  5. I guess “former” is to “homosexual” as “get out” is to “politics”. It all depends on how EXODUS spins the words.

  6. You know what is interesting about this conversation, is that it, in a way, is very supportive of a post-modernist/relativist world view – where nothing is objective and everything depends upon the vantage point of the individual – everything is relative – something which is, at its heart, kind of anti-Christian. I’m as guilty of this thought process as anyone – but its kind of interesting to think about this in light of this conversation. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, I’m not saying that anyone on here is anti-Christian.

  7. Sorry I didn’t have a chance to help you Ann. I know only a bit about Arlington myself – but enough.

  8. Jayhuck,

    I will look up this group but if you have a chance, can you tell me who they are and what the implication is for Exodus having an affiliation with them.

  9. Yep, XGW reports that Exodus will remain a member of the Arlington Group, according to Alan Chambers.

    Gees – if this is true, how INCREDIBLY sad.

  10. Michael,

    Thank you so much for this response – I’m on my way to an appt. and will send comments later 🙂

  11. Sadly, we now find that Alan is either using “decided to back out of policy issues” in the same way that he has used “change” and “former homosexual” in the past. It seems that “back out” really means “stay a part of” and “policy issues” means the Arlington Group, the most political of all religious affiliations.

    Yep, XGW reports that Exodus will remain a member of the Arlington Group, according to Alan Chambers.

    sigh… it turns out that change in focus of the group has little more objective difference than change in orientation has. It consists mostly of announcement and they way one decides to view oneself and has little observable meaning outside of that.

    Exodus will continue to be a political advocacy organization… it will just call itself something else.

  12. Would you be willing to consider that the experiences of others are just as important as those who have not had the same experience?

    Absolutely! I sincerely apologize if I have given the opposite impression! I know I am very opinionated and can come across harshly at times, but I am only stating my opinion and sharing my experience. I don’t want to mandate anything, even if I could. And I am certainly not a “spokesperon” for anyone but me.

    I ask these questions only to improve my own understanding — not to deny or diminish someone else’s genuine experience. Even though I personally believe (on an intuitive level) that it is learned, I do respect that someone else might experience the desire to change as coming from some deeply intuitive, essential, spiritual, intrinsic, and/or unlearned part of themselves.

    In the end, I believe that Intuition and learning are both inextricably involved in shaping our experiences of internal and external reality. Wherever it comes from, I believe our basic intuition can be sharpened and improved by learning life’s lessons.

  13. Michael,

    Would you be willing to consider that the experiences of others are just as important as those who have not had the same experience? If so, do you think it is also important to respect them as individuals and not diminish what they say because you or others do not feel the same way?

    I have read over and over now how this or that is being mandated as real – but to whom? I propose that each of us speak from a personal experience and not as a spokesperson for all.

  14. Michael,

    I can say that intuition is not something that is learned – knowing that certain things do not feel right for us is more intrinsic than a thing we learn.

  15. Eddy said : “Sorry, Michael, perhaps my bad. But when you imply that a person’s motives are ‘learned’ and combine that with the overwhelming theme that conservative Christian guilt pervades society; it does seem that you are at least hinting that the motives are illegitimate or misguided.”

    Nope. I just think the experience of homosexuality as unwanted is learned. I am not saying people with unwated SSA are wrong for wanting to change. They may have very good reasons, including the desire to live in accordance with deeply held religious values, the desire to fit in, the desire to be “normal”, etc. I just don’t believe that these desires are intrinsic or inborn. I think we learn or accumulate them.

    On the other hand, I do believe that sexual orientation (the prevailing and persistent direction of one romantic/emotional/sexual attractions) is most likely inborn and not learned. Of course, I can’t prove either point, And you can’t prove the opposite.

    It’s not just “conservative Christian guilt” that motivates. That’s just part of it. It’s much more. It’s all of the “gay is not OK” messages — the teasing, the rejection, the bullying, the “jokes”, the pressures from family peers to be “normal”, etc., etc., etc.. You know what I am talking about. You have also experienced these things. Can you really separarate these out — and insist that they had no influence on your desire to be “ex-gay”?

    In my own experience, I wanted to change because I had never heard that it was perfectly OK to be gay — and that God might have intended it that way.

  16. Jayhuck,

    I feel I can agree with you that no one chooses to be same-sex attracted, however, this does not mean that choices are not made throughout ones life to lead someone to believe they have always been same-sex attracted. Once habits are established they reinforce the beliefs we already have. The attraction may be there as a result of other causes, but once the habits associated are established we then begin to reinforce the idea that this is who we have been all along. It may be very ingrained in some and less so in others, hence the varying levels of attractions and why some are able to let these go and others are not.

  17. Eddy,

    Good questions. I think some distinctions can be made. For instance, no one chooses to be gay (in the sense that many use the term which is synonymous with homosexual ) or heterosexual – however, they CAN choose to be married, divorced, ex-gay, etc. Just because someone is married to someone of the opposite sex does not mean they are heterosexual. I don’t think its completely off base to talk about an uneven playing field – even in today’s society. I do believe there’s an argument to be made that it would be easier to be straight than to be gay. Straight people continue to have many advantages over gay people.

    I’m not sure what it is people have been trying to say. Is it that few people choose to identify as ex-gay – probably, compared to the number of gay people out there – just a guess though

    I didn’t say that we shouldn’t question the motivations on both sides, but its probably good first of all to understand the difference between identifying as ex-gay and having a homosexual/gay orientation, and second of all to admit that even today, its easier in many ways to be straight than gay. From benefits, to safety and security, some simply find it easier, even if it means pretending

  18. But Jayhuck, hasn’t everyone been making the point that very very few people actually go the ‘ex-gay route’? It would seem that there are more married (or otherwise heterosexual) men who have now decided they are gay than there are gay men who have gone ‘ex’. I’m really not sure which side has more people but I did feel that the appeal to an uneven playing field had no basis in any established facts. Maybe it would have been well enough to just let the statement hang…why don’t we feel the need to question the motivations on both sides?

  19. Eddy,

    And it makes me wonder why we wouldn’t question a heterosexual who was going gay in much the same way. Couldn’t their decision also–possibly–be misguided?

    It could be, and that is a good point. I would say that its far less likely though, considering how uneven the playing field is when we’re talking about gay and straight people and relationships. Even in today’s society, its simply easier to be straight – even if it just means pretending to be (just talking about some gay people who pretend to be straight due to their environment).

  20. Sorry, Michael, perhaps my bad. But when you imply that a person’s motives are ‘learned’ and combine that with the overwhelming theme that conservative Christian guilt pervades society; it does seem that you are at least hinting that the motives are illegitimate or misguided.

    And when you factor in these paragraphs from earlier in the thread:

    Sometimes, people need to have those beliefs respectfully but actively challenged – particularly if the negative feelings about being gay are the result of years and years of social, familial and religious programming, misinformation and prejudice.

    I think that we have a responsibility to ask why a person wants to “journey away” from homosexual relationships or behavior. Are they afraid of rejection by society, family or church? If their reasons for seeking “change” are religious, are they aware that there are other people of faith who strongly beieve the Bible, but who hold a different view about what scripture does and doesn’t say about being gay? Are they worried that, if they accept their “SSA” that they will be doomed to live some sort of hollow “lifestyle” built only on sex, drugs and rock and roll?

    –it does seem that the theme of illegitimate and misguided motives is key.

    LOL! And it makes me wonder why we wouldn’t question a heterosexual who was going gay in much the same way. Couldn’t their decision also–possibly–be misguided?

  21. “…nor do I think ministries themselves should be engaged in public policy – surely there are other Christian organizations that can step into those places “

    I am in complete agreement.! That’s the way we imagined EXODUS from the start, the way we worked hard to maintain it — and I believe — that way it ought to remain. There are plenty of conservative Christian politcal organizations out there if individuals want to express their politcal will.

    Wendy: Do you know if EXODUS leadership has read and discussed the “10th Tradition” of AA to assist EXODUS in developing its own political neutrality statement?

  22. Nemario said,”Ominous. I don’t care for organizations like Exodus, but that they’re making a point of turning away from public policy…huh??? Public policy is just as important as ministry. It involves children, public health, families, schools. The last thing we need to become like is the attic of this continent (Canada). Bah.”

    Just curious….have you been to Canada? Have you done ministry there?

    Public policy may be important ….. but I don’t think it is as important as ministry – nor do I think ministries themselves should be engaged in public policy – surely there are other Christian organizations that can step into those places with the grace & truth of Christ in a manner of humility that truly reflects Jesus.

  23. Eddy said: “For many, the motivations may be misguided as Michael portrayed. But we have to allow that many might actually have motivations that are legitimate.”

    With respect, I don’t remember saying that anyone’s desires to “change” (or more accurately, “adapt”) were illigitimate or misguided — onlly that I believe this discomfort with one’s homosexuality is learned, not inborn. Of course, that is just my opinion. Can’t prove it.

    I do respect that some people “experience their SSA as unwanted” — for whatever reason — and I do respect each person’s right to live in accordance with their own values and beliefs.

  24. Ann,

    Seriously though, the words and labels we use will never be accurate because they cannot describe completely the human experience and the individuals involved.

    Absolutely Ann 🙂 I do think we need labels, as Eddy said, but you are absolutely correct 🙂

  25. Oh, and, um – before I forget to mention it – Kudos to Exodus for making this change 🙂

  26. I think my issue with the term is that when people, for religious reasons, choose not to be a part of a heterosexual lifestyle, we don’t call them ex-straight.

  27. Eddy,

    My concern is though that’s kinda where the political involvement all started. (I shouldn’t state that as fact…it’s my strongly held opinion of where it started.) I see some legitimacy to this but it will be perceived as lobbying.

    That’s a concern of mine as well!

    Regarding labels – They may be a necessary evil, I don’t know. I choose not to use the term ex-gay for myself, even though it fits for many reasons. There are several reasons I don’t use it, but among them are the fact that by its very nature, the term is somewhat demeaning/offensive for those in the gay community, continuing to call myself gay does not mean that I continue to engage in certain activities, and it has a terrible connotation for those Exodus desires to “help” because of its association with politics. I, like other people, associate the word gay with homosexual – I don’t associate it with a lifestyle of any kind.

  28. I am encouraged by Alan’s announcement, as I believe the political/policy entanglements have over the years had a negative impact upon ministry and I have earnestly desired a shift away from that. I so appreciated hearing Wendy’s thoughts at the Exodus leaders event. She is a tremendous encouragement to all who are committed to ministry without partisan entanglements, humility in regards to unresolved scientific questions, and invitations expressed in an accessible language. This truly can be a new day.

    Sonia

  29. Ominous. I don’t care for organizations like Exodus, but that they’re making a point of turning away from public policy…huh??? Public policy is just as important as ministry. It involves children, public health, families, schools. The last thing we need to become like is the attic of this continent (Canada). Bah.

  30. Eddy,

    Funny! Seriously though, the words and labels we use will never be accurate because they cannot describe completely the human experience and the individuals involved. That is why if a person can describe, in an authentic and genuine way, their experience or journey then those words will have meaning. I am not sure if this is a good example or not but here goes – every woman that I have ever heard describe the experience of giving birth is different. The framework is basically the same – there is a baby in the uterus that is ready to be born – other than that their stories are varied and as different as the women describing them, yet all have the same conclusion – the baby comes out. I am wondering what we would learn if we were to listen to individual stories and journeys from those experiencing them on an ongoing basis and then base our thoughts/knowledge on that rather than words and labels and terms and assumptions that have only brought temporary and artificial relief to those using them and never really advanced us as human beings respecting and interacting with each other anyway. Perhaps we could see that there is much more to learn than we ever realized (???)

  31. Michael,

    Thank you – yes, I do understand and wouldn’t have felt otherwise about what you wrote – you make a very good point that probably fits most people. My point is that some individuals see their SSA as cumbersome and unwanted because it interferes with what they really want in life. That to me is personal, even innate, if it comes from within and has nothing to do with outside pressure. Some people innately do not consider same gender sex the best thing for them regardless of who they are attracted to – they don’t need to explain their personal reasons, it is what it is and that is how they feel and choose to live. For others, their personal desires and goals and values, that have nothing to do with outside pressure, supercede the same gender attractions they also have, and it guides them in the direction they choose. They deserve this personal freedom. If more people would realize ande accept that SSA does not always equate to same gender relationships and/or sex, there wouldn’t be so much contention about what should or shouldn’t be.

  32. Well, Ann, it seems your plate keeps getting more full. LOL! I did not foresee the problem with the word “unwanted” but I do recognize the validity of Marcia’s statement. I’m not sure if, at some point, we’re not going to run into ‘duality’ issues.

    I agree with Marcia, my homosexuals feelings simply ‘are’. I may have felt bad about the feelings in my first two years as a conservative Christian but eventually i came to realize something pretty basic. The only sexual experience I’ve ever had is with other men. Even experiences that I had discomfort with on some level still had the capacity for physical arousal and satisfaction. And I’ve still got hormones trudging (alas, they no longer race) through my veins. So, even if you put all the spiritual talk aside (satan, temptation, spiritual battles, etc.), my hormones are going to speak up every now and again. When they do, my brain is going to remember the paths I used to travel. Thoughts? Temptations? Associations? Whatever…they just are. No guilt. (What sin did I commit?) No self-reproach. (A lot of people see religion as the source of self-reproach but somehow I stumbled onto something different. I figure God knew just how big a squirrel I was when He reached out to me. Nothing was hidden. He loved me anyway. How outrageous it would be for me to hold myself in reproach when He doesn’t!)

    Michael,

    I don’t follow every post as I used to but I don’t recall Ann ever saying she was herself dealing with unwanted sexual attractions. A good while back she mentioned a number of people she knew…I’m thinking about a half dozen…who weren’t particularly religious but were on this journey. (I’m trying the new stuff…)

    I think we need to be open-minded enough to realize that others may have ‘other than spiritual’ reasons for embarking on this journey. I agree that that motivation needs to be explored from the outset. A person needs to know why they’re on the journey in the first place. For many, the motivations may be misguided as Michael portrayed. But we have to allow that many might actually have motivations that are legitimate.

    (I’ve gone allegorical….I’m picturing the first encounter of the journeyman and the intake counselor. The journeyman lays his motivations out on the table; the counselor lays out a map of the land and the possible routes and asks “Now, do you think that motivation’s gonna get you there? Alright, now let me tell you about the waystations where you can rejuvenate and replenish for the trip. Oh, and just where are you headed…either ultimately or at the moment? It helps to have some direction in mind. Oh, and one last thing, be sure to recheck your motivations and your destination every so often, you may find they’ve changed.”)

  33. Ann: I hope you will understand that I mean no disrespect when I say that I don’t believe that there is an “innate” aspect to the experience of homosexual attractions being experienced as “unwanted”. I do respect that you intuitively experience it in this way — but I still believe that such feelings are learned.

    It seems to me that you would have to be able to somehow separate yourself from all of the subtle and not-so-subtle cultural and religious messages that “gay is not OK” — to really know if it’s an inner voice or perhaps just an echo of all those accumulated negative messages. But that’s just my opinion. Again, I do not mean to dismiss, discount or reduce your deep and profound internal experience.

  34. I tried to send this earlier and don’t think it went through so my apologies if it becomes a duplicate 🙂

    Marcia,

    I really appreciate the way you articulated this – thank you. I believe that SSA has been put in the catagory of “unwanted” for some individuals because they cannot see it the way you and Michael do – I hope someday they do. I think it will make a powerful difference and the blessing will be immeasurable.

    Michael and Marcia,

    Regarding the word “unwanted” – I now see that perhaps that is another word that does not accurately do justice to each individual. I am grateful that it has been pointed out and we can take a closer look at how it can stand in the way of not only discussion but also hinder a person. My personal reason for using it in the past is to distinguish those who are content with pursuing same gender sexual relationships and those who are not – there is a difference and I felt that distinction would keep the focus on either issue. It seemed as though at times there would be enmeshment between the two and nothing would get accomplished in a discussion.

    Regarding the words “personal” and “innate” – I must hold onto my original statement about this. I also think we should not diminish or discount that people do have these inner feelings and convictions – if we cannot understand them, then it should be left there but not dismiss them as inaccurate for some. I would ask that we acknowledge there is a difference of opinion on how someone knows – learned or innate – what is in their best interest. Some call this intuition, some define it as a small, still voice, it might also be called an epiphany – all I am asking is that it is not reduced or dismissed just because it is not understood.

    Eddy,

    I have not forgotten your question – I wrote to Dr. Throckmorton a week or so ago about this and am trying to find that first 🙂

  35. Hey there, Marcia! I like the way you think. You explain that for you, same sex attractions are not “unwanted”…they just are…no need to deny them or devalue myself or others for having them.”

    After years of struggle, I came to a very similar place in my own journey. I decided to no longer deny, devalue (or try to “change”) my sexual orientation — it just is. Now, I think of it like fire — morally neutral in and of itself. Like fire, it can be used to warm or to destroy — it’s entirely up to me.

    I think it’s very cool that now, with “politics” out of the way (assuming EXODUS keeps its promise) we can begin to discuss what’s really important — how people reconcile issues of sexuality and spirituality, how they live their lives — and how we ought to treat one another…

  36. This discussion has been helpful for me. Thanks especially to Ann and Michael…

    While I want to refrain from acting on sexual attractions to other women, I don’t particularly experience those attractions as “unwanted”…they just are…no need to deny them or devalue myself or others for having them.

    I appreciate places in my life where I find support for this, and where there is no pressure to declare my sexuality [based on my attractions alone.] I would like Exodus to be this kind of support, but to do this with more clarity than they have in the past, and to do it with a vigilant eye for identifying and weeding out false or misleading information about gays (good word, Ken.)

  37. Oops! That last paragraph was was Ann’s, not mine. But, I do like the idea of “journey” instead of “change”. I agree with you, Eddy, that “it would be better if the word ‘change’ were not even included anywhere in the statement. Further, Exodus should scrub the website for the word and not use it in any new presentations whether written or spoken.”

    That would be great! For the time being, though, I don’t mind the word “change” as long as EXODUS does what Alan Chambers has suggested and clearly explain what they mean when they use it.

    As Eddy knows all too well, I am much more interested in seeing EXODUS “officially retire” the term “ex-gay” — as Alan said he wanted to do — and, as Alan said, “see to it that it is never used again.” While he is at it, I think EXODUS should scrub all references to “former homosexual” and (sorry Eddy) never use “post-gay” — since it is also loaded with semantic problems that will only perpetuate the confusion. I vote for simple English. Forget the labels. Tell us about your journey.

  38. Ann: I have also enjoyed this dialog very much, but I have to say that on this point, I strongly agree with Ken, above. I do not believe that there is “something innate” that tells people that “same sex relationships are not in their best interest.” I stongly believe that such feelings and attitudes are learned.

    I also don’t think that a person’s negative feelings about their sexual orientation should necessarily “be “honored and supported.” Sometimes, people need to have those beliefs respectfully but actively challenged — particularly if the negative feelings about being gay are the result of years and years of social, familial and religious programming, misinformation and prejudice.

    I think that we have a responsibility to ask why a person wants to “journey away” from homosexual relationships or behavior. Are they afraid of rejection by society, family or church? If their reasons for seeking “change” are religious, are they aware that there are other people of faith who strongly beieve the Bible, but who hold a different view about what scripture does and doesn’t say about being gay? Are they worried that, if they accept their “SSA” that they will be doomed to live some sort of hollow “lifestyle” built only on sex, drugs and rock and roll?

    If so, I think we need to point out the alternatives (both in terms of belief and practice) that are available to them — all the while being honest that whatever path they take, we’re not talking about turning homosexuals into hetersexuals. We are talking about helping people make the most rational and productve adaptation they can make to the ongoing same sex feelings — to help those who “journey”” to live in accordance with their beliefs.

    In all of this, respect for the individual and their personal jouney must be paramount. Ann, I understand that the sense that the attractions are somehow wrong can be so strong and so pervasive that they feel innate — but I don’t think they are. But, that is just my belief — I respect the difference of opinion.

    Iit is something that personally (innately) tells them that it is not in their best interest to pursue or continue same gender sexual relationships. I am sure each person has a different motivation but whatever it is, it must be honored and supported t would help to talk about a journey rather than a change

  39. Ann said in post 91071:

    it is something that personally (innately) tells them that it is not in their best interest to pursue or continue same gender sexual relationships. I am sure each person has a different motivation but whatever it is, it must be honored and supported just as those who choose to pursue or continue same gender sexual relationships.

    I definitely disagree with this statement. While there may be people who have some sort of innate feelings against their same-sex attractions, I suspect they are very few and that for the vast majority of them, those attractions are unwanted due to societal (mostly religious) attitudes towards gays. Further, not all motivations are the same. If the motivations are based on false or misleading information about gays (“if I don’t change I’ll be dead by the time I’m 50”, “gays aren’t capable of forming lasting, committed relationships”, etc), then it is the mis-information about gays that needs to be addressed 1st.

  40. Let’s say you were describing this blog and its conversants to a friend, what words would you use to differentiate the points of view that wouldn’t be labels and wouldn’t be cumbersome?

    Eddy,

    Very. very good question – let me think about it and I will write tomorrow, ok?

  41. Ann:

    One of my main problems with doing away with labels altogether is that I think we need them in conversations or for search purposes. My problem may be with seeing the label as a shortcut. You pulled off that paragraph without using labels. Can I offer you another test?

    Let’s say you were describing this blog and its conversants to a friend, what words would you use to differentiate the points of view that wouldn’t be labels and wouldn’t be cumbersome? LOL! I’m thinking that you’ve been doing this all along and I missed it. I really am asking “how do you do that?”

    (No rush. I may not get to check in again til tomorrow after work.)

  42. Eddy,

    In all the dialogues I have had on this blog, it is the one with Michael that brought out what I wanted to say – I am so grateful. If anything I said is to be considered, I know it will need to be finessed in order to be accepted. I still would like to submit that the word “change” never be used again and to do what you suggested about the website. Also, I would like to submit that consideration be given to doing away with the labels ex-gay, former gay, ex-ex gay, etc. – it is impossible to be accurate in describing those who cannot or do not want to label themselves. It is an on-going, day to day walk and it is that experience that should be described on an individual basis – not as a catagory with a label followed by all the assumptions that come with it. I really liked some of the examples of this that you provided for consideration 🙂

  43. How about “I’m on a Joo’g’soo.”? I’m on a Journey Out Of ‘Gay’ Something Or Other.” Or Joo’gay’soo? “Can you hook me up with some joo’gay’soos?”

  44. The dialogue between Michael and Ann was among the best that I’ve seen here on the site. Thanks to both of you for persevering with each other. To me, the reward came out in Ann’s statement:

    “it is an ongoing priority for us (people in Exodus or wherever) to acknowledge our past and or current unwanted attractions and also our desire to refrain from acting upon them. This is a very personal journey that is renewed on a daily basis and is different for everyone.”

    Michael:

    I know we just agreed that Alan should consider Wendy to draft an “outfront statement” but, what do you say we recommend this paragraph from Ann as well?

    I tend to agree with Ann that it would be better if the word ‘change’ were not even included anywhere in the statement. Further, Exodus should scrub the website for the word and not use it in any new presentations whether written or spoken.

    I’ve been considering just how possible that may be simply by referring back to Ann’s paragraph. Instead of that nebulous word ‘change’, speak of your ‘journey’. (It may be equally nebulous but does not have the sense of ‘it’s all done; I’ve arrived.”) Instead of saying “I’ve changed”, tell me how you’re dealing with current unwanted attractions and how easy or difficult that is for you. Instead of saying “I’ve changed”, tell me what motivates you to stay on this journey.

    LOL! Ann, I hope nobody finds fault with that paragraph because I really think you’ve captured the essence of what brought Exodus together in the first place.

    Alan: (LOL! I figure you’ve got to be reading this thread!)

    The portion we’ve ascribed to Wendy could express the Christian mission of Exodus but it would be great if a paragraph such as Ann’s would leave the religious part out. Ann has made a strong point over the time she’s blogged here about people who don’t identify as Christian, or perhaps not religious at all but they still have unwanted same-sex attractions. If Exodus sometimes feels invisible, imagine the plight of these people. So, include ’em! Have a few meetings or gatherings that center on practical applications without spouting Bible verses. (LOL! You might have discovered that application in the Bible; surely, you believe it’s not in contradiction with the Bible…so toss it out to some people who don’t come from a Christian worldview and see if it floats.)

    Michael:

    I don’t want to minimize your part in this. Were it not for the open nature of your dialogue with Ann, I don’t think the thought would have crystallized in quite the same way.

  45. you too Michael 🙂 btw, I think there are two Ann’s on the blog – I have posted a lot and do not have a web site as the other Ann does. I also agree with you 100% about what Dr. Throckmorton (someday I will call him Warren) and Eddy write.

  46. Any time. Again, I apologize if I have been harsh. I know that sexuality and faith are very personal matters. I have also learned much from Warren, Eddy and many others who frequently post here and on Ex-gay Watch. Pleased to make your acquaintance!

  47. I know it’s very personal, but could you explain why?

    Michael,

    That’s just it – it is something that personally (innately) tells them that it is not in their best interest to pursue or continue same gender sexual relationships. I am sure each person has a different motivation but whatever it is, it must be honored and supported just as those who choose to pursue or continue same gender sexual relationships. I am very grateful for the small, still voice that directs me in many areas of my life.

  48. thank you Michael – that means a lot. I have purposely not identified myself in anyway on this blog because there are some on here who like to attack and I can avoid that by keeping my posts to a subject rather and personalize them. I do not consider you part of that group though and enjoy what you write and have learned from it as well 🙂

  49. I know that many people experience homosexuality or bisexuality as “unwanted” and that they want to refrain from acting on homosexual feelings. I can respect their choice, even though it makes me very sad. I don’t understand why they experience their sexuality as unwanted. I know it’s very personal, but could you explain why?

  50. if a term must be quoted, can it be something like “it is an ongoing priority for us (people in Exodus or wherever) to acknowledge our past and or current unwanted attractions and also our desire to refrain from acting upon them. This is a very personal journey that is renewed on a daily basis and is different for everyone.”

  51. I am sorry if I have come across as sarcastic. Please forgive me. I am often deliberately sarcastic about EXODUS, but I certainly did not mean to be mean or sarcastic to you.

    Yes. I certainly do acknowledge that there are people with unwanted same sex attractions who may not be Christian — who may be atheist or agnostic, who may be members of other faiths — or who may have no particular religious views.

    EXODUS is a Evangelical Christian organization and believes that Jesus is the answer to the gay issue. I am not aware of any reputable, non-religious support groups or programs for non-Christian/non-religious folks who do not want to affirm being gay.

    I am curious. Why are your attractions unwanted?

  52. Michael,

    Here is something that would mean a lot to me and others – not everyone with unwanted sexual attractions/desires are Christian – can they ever be acknowledged and included as well without a sarcastic comment attached to it?

    I still maintain that the word “change” should not be used – it has too many mis-leading interpretations for too many people. Can that be considered as well?

  53. Ann: I agree with your statement that when we speak of “change” we are really talking about people with “unwanted sexual desires and want to reconcile this with their personal values and beliefs”.

    I (half) jokingly call such folks “Cwussa’s” — Christian With Unwanted Same Sex Attractions. “Cwussa” is very similar to what Joe Dallas of EXODUS admitted back in 1991 (and under some pressure) when he explained that “ex-gay” was really just “a convenient way of saying a Christian with homosexual tendencies who would rather not have those tendencies.” He said it (“ex-gay”) “just rolled off the tongue easier”.

    If a Cwussa wants to talk about “change” — that’s OK — change is a fine word. Just follow Alan Chambers own advice and “clearly state what that means in our lives”. If Cwussa’s did this, they would calm a lot of the criticism.

  54. Michael,

    I know that employers cannot use the word “permanent” to describe a position anymore as it has been misconstrued to mean the job is forever and the person accepting it will always be permanently employed 😉 I would like to formally submit that Exodus just never use the word “change” again in referring to sexual desires and the decisions one makes about them.

  55. “When we use words like ‘change’ the burden is on us to clearly state what that means in our lives. Some have used the word ‘change’ hoping that it meant something it doesn’t.”

    Michael,

    This is so well said – when an Exodus leader/representative/ministry talks about “change”, it has to be clarified that this is their experience and just what that means for them and not be misconstrued with any other interpretation of the word. It would help to talk about a journey rather than a change. I was just thinking – on most advertising there is a small voice or print at the end that states something very similar – have you heard or seen it? Perhaps Exodus can make that part of their web site and literature.

  56. Michael,

    I understand your perspective and am also mindful that there are many other people in the world who can have other perspectives about their personal journey – this also needs to be considered. Exodus should definintely not cater to one theory and then mandate that it as an axiom – either way. I would prefer that the word “change” not be used at all and that it is referred to as a ministry open to all people of all faiths (I know I am being idealistic here as it is based on Christianity) who acknowledge unwanted sexual desires and want to reconcile this with their personal values, beliefs, etc. – however this unfolds for them, with or without the resources Exodus offers, is personal and varied and should not have any limits based on another’s point of view.

  57. Ann: This is from Alan Chamber’s personal blog — about “change”:

    “When we use words like ‘change’ the burden is on us to clearly state what that means in our lives. Some have used the word ‘change’ hoping that it meant something it doesn’t.”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.

  58. Ann: First of all, I think that EXODUS has a moral responsibility to clearly state that “change” does not mean that a person becomes heterosexual — and should admit that the “struggle against SSA” will most likely be lifelong. That’s honest. If they want to talk about “change”, then drop the misleading “ex-gay”, “post-gay”, “former homosexual” buzzwords and simply describe the change in plain English.

    Tell the truth. Say: “Some people experience less intense attractions. Say that for many the feelings remain as strong as ever, but that they are trying to resist. Say that some develop some attractions to the opposite sex. Say that some people already had attractions to both sexes but now choose not to act on the gay feelings.

    Say that some who were sexually addicted, engaging in compulsive and risky behavior, are now living more balanced and satisfying lives. Say that some developed enough straight feelings to have a satisfying marriage. Say that some choose to be celibate.

    Whatever they do, EXODUS needs to go out of its way to be certain that they are not giving the false impression that EXODUS folks stop being gay and become straight instead. That is either hype or a lie — neither of which is consistent with “speaking the truth in love”.

  59. what it means by “change

    Michael,

    How do you suggest this be worded on the web site as it has a myriad of different meanings for just as many individuals?

  60. Eddy: I completely agree with your suggestion, above,that “Alan ask Wendy to work on a statement for the frontpage of the Exodus Website (or with a very visible link from front page). A statement that clarifies Exodus’ true intent and its heart towards the homosexuality community…a statement that denounces bigotry and bashing as unchristian responses. “

    Wendy would be the perfect person to draft these statements. Eddy’s idea is something I have been urging Alan to do for well over a year now. I think that visitors to the EXODUS website should be able to — at a glance — know exactly where EXODUS stands on these crucial issues, what it means by “change”, how it feels about bigotry and bashing, its new NON-political (pure focus on ministry) stance, etc. Visitors should not have to make guesses about these issues or search archives. All these policies need to be UP FRONT, CURRENT and VISIBLE.

  61. LOL! I checked in right before leaving for work and didn’t even follow the links…couldn’t wait to get home and read up. It’s actually been a week of good reading–much of it over at Ex-Gay Watch. I last checked in on ‘the Wendy thread’ last weekend and need to get back for a glimpse at the rest of what may have transpired.

    From Alan’s blog, it seems like he was the one who got the idea of bringing Wendy in to speak to the leadership conference. That fact alone gives me much hope. I share the concerns expressed in the comments re Alan’s statement. I think when they talk about ‘sharing our stories” with politicians, they are envisioning those scenarios when they feel religious freedoms are at risk. They simply want to say “We exist. Please see us.” My concern is though that’s kinda where the political involvement all started. (I shouldn’t state that as fact…it’s my strongly held opinion of where it started.) I see some legitimacy to this but it will be perceived as lobbying.

    From the reading I’ve done this afternoon, it would seem that Exodus needs to be mindful that the ‘personal websites’ of its key personalities are seen by many as ‘speaking the mind of Exodus’. So, to many, it appears that there hasn’t been much of a change. I’m torn between not wanting to censor comments that individuals make, on the one hand, and wanting Exodus, the organization, out of the political arena entirely, on the other.

    Lightbulb Moment: Alan, how about asking Wendy to work on a statement for the frontpage of the Exodus Website (or with a very visible link from front page). A statement that clarifies Exodus’ true intent and its heart towards the homosexuality community…a statement that denounces bigotry and bashing as unchristian responses.

    Michael,

    Alan shared his distaste for the term ‘ex-gay’ in his blog. You were right! He does still feel that way. But his reasons seem to go more to “I wish we didn’t need a label” than to ‘ex-gay’ being particularly misleading. Alan’s only objection re meaning was that some never saw themselves as ‘gay’ in the first place. This objection would also apply to the only new, somewhat viable suggestion we’ve had, ‘post gay’.

    LOL! I’ve got a feeling there’s a Part Two coming but I’m starved….

  62. I am a lurker on here but I wanted to comment on this topic.

    This is long overdue but very welcomed. I have had many conversations with people in and out of the “ex-gay” movement about this.

    Dr Throckmorton, you appear to have had a lot to do with supporting this move. I believe your blog has been influential.

  63. What a sigh of relief! Now it’s almost as if we can begin. Thank you to the leadership at Exodus – signed and Ex Gay.

  64. Warrren said: “For now, I wholeheartedly commend the leadership of Exodus for these moves.”

    So do I. And I just wrote Alan to tell him so.

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