Jim Brown of OneNewNow reports an interview with Alan Chambers regarding the LA Times article on Monday and Stephen Bennett’s critical reaction.
Chambers tells OneNewsNow he has never met someone who had a “sudden or complete change when it came to homosexuality.” He says he believes that God gives people the ability to overcome on a daily basis, rather than “a complete transformation in an instant.”
Actually it was the intention of the founders of EXODUS that EXODUS should remain “a LOOSEKNIT COALITION of ministries”. Those individual ministries can still choose to refrain from any political commentary–and are actually free to speak points of view that might actually disagree with headquarters. (Of course, in those cases, they need to be careful to clarify that they are not speaking for EXODUS.)
Individual ministries within EXODUS have differing approaches, different ministry focus, different theological approaches, varying degrees of ‘professionalism’. An EXODUS conference is usually a smorgasbord of teaching sessions. In my day, someone could elect to attend my ‘lessons for the battlefield’ or they could opt for a class on ‘charismatic inner healing’ or maybe a ‘spouse’s session’. A person COULD come away from a week long conference having only heard ‘what they wanted to’…they could skip out on theologies or approaches that differed from their own.
Whether that’s good or bad is not for me to say. I’m just saying that’s the way it was–and I think still is.
Jayhuck noted that Michael’s story of his heterosexual marriage and divorce is an excellent example of what’s wrong with EXODUS. I just want to make it clear that Michael’s marriage pretty much coincided with (and may have even preceded) EXODUS. Before the ‘coming together’ of the various ministries across the US, each came from their own church and/or ministry. The responsibility for Michael’s failed marriage does not belong to EXODUS but rather to Michael and his local church and ministry. Like I said, EXODUS hadn’t happened yet.
Jayhuck, I attended about 10 EXODUS conferences–admittedly some years back–and I NEVER saw heterosexuality being flashed about in the manner you describe. (But, then again, I never attended the ‘inner healing’ sessions. See above.) At the same time, the news of ‘somebody that actually got married’ would spread rather quickly. Some were fascinated by the concept; others were literally freaked out. And, there was a tendency among many to see the married guy as ‘more healed’. Some of the theologies did embrace this as ‘ultimate proof of God’s healing’.
I keep thinking that this is where the impression originated that EXODUS promises and preaches heterosexuality. And, let’s be truthful, if you were a media person covering the event, which would you be more likely to report on: the ex-gay guy who says he’s now happily heterosexual or the one who’s talking about reckoning with temptation? I believe that, although EXODUS conferences were presenting a more balanced picture, the media capitalized on the sensational.
I do want EXODUS Headquarters to get out of politics. If they feel they must remain politically involved, then I feel it’s imperative that they severe all ties with that right wing Republican/Christian beast that they’ve gotten tangled up with. Guilt by association with such hypocrisy does not serve EXODUS well. If EXODUS remains politically involved, I feel it must constantly reiterate two distinctions–1) the difference between EXODUS point of view and the beast above 2) the difference between EXODUS HQ — its member agencies and –ex-gays in general.
Frankly, I think it’s just too confusing on both fronts and HQ should cease making any political statements at all. If individuals or local ministries want to get involved, that’s their business BUT they can’t claim to be speaking for EXODUS or for ex-gays in general.
Michael, I know that. I remember your story ( I have been telling her about you) when I came out to my mom and insisted that no one was sending me anywhere. She wasn’t trying to send me anywhere and she told me your story.
But anyhow, how would it feel to someone if you invited them in to a ministry and then if they did not change or whatever you have this public statement saying that you do not support their choices (because that’s you call it) and you are going to vote against them, their families, their everything that protects you because you think it is bad policy or because homosexuals are bad for society? It would not make me trust the people that were “trying” to help me.
I can totally understand that people have different opinions and values and vote differently. But to make politics part of your ministry is just shameful to me and almost sinful.
Okay broken man/woman/child “Heal!” and if you don’t we don’t give you legal rights. (Because God said it is okay to say so) Yeah – right????
It was the intent of the founders of EXODUS that EXODUS should remain a MINISTRY and ONLY a ministry. We tried very hard to avoid political entanglements and to be officially neutral. We didn’t want people to think they had to become members of the right wing of the Republican party in order to be saved.
Yeah, I can’t attend because I do not support nor agree with a ministry that engages in politics. It’s sort of like saying “Come here, let us help. And if we don’t help , by the way, we are going to vote against your right to a marriage, financial protection for you and your children, etc..”
Let’s hope so Mary 🙂 Now, if they actually started moving away from politics, I might actually attend one of their conferences!
Jayhuck,
There has been some change in the idea that marriage is the goal of “changing”. Alot of people are moving away from that idea.
I don’t know what they promote at Exodus as I have never been to their conferences and do not plan on doing so in the near future.
Thanks for your comments Stephen,
I will choose to not take offense at your assertion that I don’t understand the concepts of a life of REAL faith. But I will let you know that all of us here actually believe the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Some of us just think that the Good News of Jesus Christ isn’t about condemnation and the Law of Moses.
And while a 5th grade understanding of scripture (in English) is adequate for you, some of us believe that a study of scripture in the original language and seen within culture and context is a worthy pursuit. I don’t condemn those who apply the English scripture to their own lives – that’s great. But before we determine what should be done with the lives of others, we need to consider that the Bible wasn’t written in our culture, our language, or to our method of thinking.
I am saddened that you have found exexers who were intolerant of your decisions. I, for one, want to assure you that we all wish you well in your life and none of us are intolerance towards your choices. Your desire to live consistent with your faith is to commentded.
But I hope some day that you can reciprocate. I am saddened that you currently think that showing others the same respect you demand is “compromise” (in the negative church-speak way) and hope that you can come to see that this notion is in direct contrast to the commandments of Christ.
I am also glad to hear that after 25 years you are still finding change and freedom and continue to hope for more freedom. I sincerely wish you well with that.
Have a great time in Irvine.
I have just recently discoverd this and the exgay watch site, I haven’t had the chance to get to know you guys and your stories, so please forgive my ignorance. I’m very grateful for these places and to the people here. I imagine I am like many “gay” people with my background and am used to being alone.
Stephen Black,
My experience has been the opposite of yours. I was raised in a strong fundamentalist background (we attended Vernon McGhees church when I was little, and then John MacArthurs church a young teen). At age 14 I became a Jesus freak, and was one of those guys who carried his bible to high school everyday. I “knew” Jesus. Around that same age, I, like most teens, had my first “wet dream,” it was about another guy. I had known of my ssa before this, like most “gays” but it didn’t plunge me into crises, because I “knew” Jesus. It was very “black and white” for me. “The bible says that acting on ssa is a sin, so God will either fix me or give me the ability to resist.” As you may have gathered, this was during the early 70’s when people didn’t talk of ssa, certainly not at church. At 17 I started bible college, while there, I received “the baptism in the Holy Spirit.” Quite an event for a guy raised in the types of churches that I was…back then talking in tongues was considered demonic by my church people or at best was not for today. I left bible school, it was baptist after all and they didn’t believe in the spiritual gifts, and no matter, I didn’t need bible school to follow God…you see, I really believed and I was quite serious about being a disciple of Jesus. I attended Jack Hayfords church for awhile, but that was a commute of 65 miles, so I began attending a small charismatic church nearer to where I lived. At 19 I got up the guts to “confess” my ssa to the church…yep, the whole church (sans children). I figured that this was part of “walking in the light” and part of the process of beating this thing. As all gays know, you become a second class citizen (at best) when people know about your ssa, that’s of course why we live in carefully constructed closets. Back in the mid 70’s people simply didn’t talk about ssa, let alone know anything about it. As a kid, I had tried reading about it, but there wasn’t much available…just scholarly stuff. But, that didn’t really matter to me. I didn’t need a doctor, I only needed Jesus/God. Even at that age, I had read the bible several times, it was “the word of God.” Back to church. My pastor and fellow believers all laid hands on me, prayed for me and my deliverance, and that was that. Never a word was mentioned again, they believed too. It took quite a bit of courage for me to mention my ssa in the first place, I wasn’t about to tell them that it hadn’t changed. That was the first time that I actually realized I was alone with this. At 21 I married. For years the joke between my wife and myself was that I never actually proposed to her. You see, it was an arranged marriage of sorts, “God” led us to get married. About a month after marrying, I “confessed” to my wife that I still struggled with ssa. I was a kid, and ignorant. I believed that she would be my ally in the struggle (it was just another sin after all, sin is sin, right?) and reassured her that God was going to deal, no worries mate. She was devastated and had all the normal feelings and hurt that any normal 21 year old woman would have upon hearing such. She had been part of the church where I originally confessed and had assumed it was a non issue. Well, I still assumed it would be a non issue, after all, if God be for me, who could be against me. I believed, not in method, but in an actual being who was there to help me become what He wanted me to be. Of course, I had had my whole life to get used to the ssa, she had not, I really realized at that point that it would be just me and God, people couldn’t deal with or understand this and as a kid I was equiped to educate them. No matter, “God” knew and understood better than me or anyone else, I trusted “Him.” I’m going to fast forward through all the rotten details here. I’ve been married 30 years, lots of hell for me and my wife and kids. I am no less gay today than I was 35 years ago.
Michael,
Your story is one of the main reasons I have such a problem with Exodus and their methods. They teach people to idolize marriage. They talk it up, and even, I’ve heard, shown pictures of happily married people during conferences.
This message is so problematic – because change, for the people who feel they must go this route, isn’t and should never be about getting married and having kids. How many times do people have to say that these things don’t make you holy. Any person seeking reparative therapy should never have a desire to get married – they should have a desire for holiness. I don’t usually see this though – I see people trying to trumpet how their change has turned them mostly heterosexual, and now we have many many stories of people who realize this isn’t true.
And chocolate, in small amounts, is actually very good for you. Provided its dark chocolate 🙂
Sort of like trying to quit chocolate cake? From time to time or if a cake is present and you have eaten then – yoou’re bound to be tempted.
Michael asked: “I wonder, Eddy, why do you suppose I never experienced that?” Well, my supposition is that you weren’t protected from unrealistic expectations as well as I was. You were the first ‘married ex-gay’ I’d ever heard of. One part of me was in awe–wanting to become such a ‘shining star’ testimony myself–but another part kept hearing the advice of my pastor and other counselors that that COULD happen but was highly unlikely. (And, if so, was probably at least 10 years down the road.)
MIchael wonders why he ‘never’ experienced that. I’ll agree ‘never’ is a long, long time but in Michael’s context–the calendar from getting saved and/or baptized in the Holy Spirit (not sure if they were at the same time) until falling in love with Gary–would put that particular ‘never’ at (I’m guessing here) 5 years or less.
In your church at the time (Melodyland Christian Center) people were getting ‘delivered’ from all manner of life-dominating addictions. And, for many, this was pretty much instant…and, in some senses, complete. It would have been easy to think that it should be just the same with your big struggle. But your area of struggle was hard-wired into your biological sex drive…meaning that when YOUR sex drive kicked in, YOUR temptations were going to be homosexual. The former drug-user would no longer have strong desires for escapism or drug thrills but you would still have both biological impulses and normal needs for friendship and relationship to contend with. (I’ve said before that a person who had left drugs behind won’t find a bag of weed sitting beside them in a pew but you might find an attractive person…and one you’re supposed to relate to in Christ.)
I DID fall in love with another man in Bible school. I went to the men’s dean to talk it out, to two best friends and finally to the guy I had the feelings for. Did you have people that wouldn’t have freaked out if you confided such feelings?
I even went to my advisors about whether I should attend that first Exodus summit and got permission but with very cautionary advice. Later, when I felt called to help run a ministry myself, I was cautioned that God likely WOULDN’T have a romance in store for me as long as I was in that type of ministry. They just couldn’t see God allowing for that much pressure.
Having walked away from homosexuality 25 years ago, getting married 21 years ago, having children, watching family and friends die, working in ministry, raising my children to adults and just traveling through this life’s pains and joys you have to know that there are good days and bad for everyone… without even approaching the subject of homosexual struggle/sin. Many who approach me from the gay community have a difficult time understanding the concepts of a life of REAL faith; you know, those who actually believe the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It only takes a 5th grade education to understand the English with in the Bible in black and white, or the red letters of Jesus. It really is disingenuous. We can live by desires and what we can see and feel, or live by what we cannot see and not base our life direction on feelings/desires. Faith is very difficult… it doesn’t have handles on it and the wisest most learned person will be confounded by God’s wisdom. Healing, Freedom, Change, Exgay, theories, genetics etc… wrangling over words and concepts, doesn’t change the spiritual reality of those who have actually made a new life style to embrace leaving a life of sin and embracing a life of faith in Christ. It is profound. I just wished the ExExers the Beyond and the gay community would be so tolerant. Alas, the reality of a true relationship with Christ is certainly scarce. There is denial of self in a relationship with Christ. Perhaps this is not the forum or blog to discuss such matters. I am new here. The marrying of Exodus to professional therapy certainly has made the issue of living by faith, the message of the Gospel, and Scripture brought into the question of the wondering wisdom of man for mental health more complicated. I applaud the effort to reach out. Is there a move to appease the gay community and bridge the gap under the banner of love? Where will this all end? More compromise? I don’t have any problem with being called exgay. I am. However, I am with Alan that my identity is not wrapped up in being exgay. My life is so much more fuller than what I do in ministry; even though I love what I do! I think it very wise to be very careful with the unscrupulous liberal secular progressive media and stay a way from theories and stick to the facts in interviews. I support Alan Chambers and Exodus as I am a director of a member ministry and was in ministry before Alan started on his own journey. I wished we would stay away from the genetic arguments and bantering until we actually know more. I have changed, (I am not a homosexual) and I am changing…(becoming more like Christ in His ways) and I will continue to change. I have freedom, I am getting free, and I will continue to embrace freedom and the Lord promises me more as I remain faithful. Who is the litmus test for our life? I trust Jesus for more. Okay so there are some of my random thoughts / comments about this controversy. Looking forward to the Exodus Freedom Conference – REVOLUTION… now there’s a word to wrangle about 😉
Gary, thanks for responding — sort of. You said: “Likewise, the word effeminate seems to indicate a life of habitual sin and is not just aimed at what we call effeminate today.”
Ok, what SORT of “habitual sin”? If the word doesn’t refer to “what we call effeminate today”, then what DOES it refer to? What is it exactly that “malakoi” DO — and how can you be sure that’s what Paul meant? More importantly, how is your average reader of the Bible supposed to know?
People seem absolutely certain that the other word (arsenokoitai) means “homosexual” — so what DOES “malakoi” mean and how did you come to that conclusion?
I am not sure why people are so uptight about Alan’s statement that change is normally slow and over time. The more deeply ingrained a behavior is and the deeper the root the more time and energy is required to bring change. Likewise, the word effeminate seems to indicate a life of habitual sin and is not just aimed at what we call effeminate today. I have counseled hundreds of people with deep habits/addictions and rarely saw one that was instantly healed of all former temptations. It is normal to struggle with thorns and bad habits of the flesh or deep wounds just as Paul did. His thorn was, I think, anger, even rage. Was he ever completely healed/delivered? I do not know.
Sonja: I am not trying to “sanctify homosexuality — or adultery, or divorce”. Only God can sanctify.
My divorce was a tragedy for me, my wife and my daughter. It broke our hearts. I love my daughter more than my own life — but I should never have married in the first place. I was gay, not “ex-gay” — and certainly not heterosexual. I was lying to myself and to others. Responsibile Christian advisors should have begged me to stop — not cheer me on because marriage looked like “change”.
And I am NOT asking you to believe that “I am right and God is wrong.” I’m not that arrogant. I am asking you to consider that God IS right — and YOU may be wrong.
Sonja wrote: “I am continually amazed that those struggling with homosexuality imagine their own temptation to be so different from the struggles the rest of us face. These are the words of Paul:…”
Why “amazed” Sonja? Do you believe you have anything that you were not given? Particularly your insights into the mind of “God?’ HInt: you are “amazed” because you are arrogant. Are you a woman? If so, These also are the words of Paul: “I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent.” They don’t seem to carry the same weight with you as the words you apply to others when judging them, but apparently you’ve found away around them.
Sonja wrote:
“Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.†You stopped resisting too soon.
“…Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!â€
I’m biting my tongue. Sigh…I quoted those words to myself for 35 years before I “came out.” I consider those years to be lies and delusion. You are seriously ignorant if you think you are telling most around here anything new.
No, Sonja.
Michael is not asking you to believe that God is wrong. He is asking you to open your heart and listen.
If you weren’t so busy telling everyone that they are sinners you might have time to realize that these “sinners” have a strong relationship with God. That they have spent more time searching and reading and praying about this than you have.
While, no doubt, your condemnation of others makes you feel good (more holy, more righteous, etc.) it really is of no value. You have nothing to contribute that we haven’t already heard. And saying things like “you stopped resisting too soon” just makes you seem callous and self-righteous.
I am continually amazed that those struggling with homosexuality imagine their own temptation to be so different from the struggles the rest of us face. These are the words of Paul:
“Sin…deceived me…It is sin living in me…I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out…When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am!…”
ALL are subject to temptations; each one is called to master his own thoughts and his own body.
“No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
Michael, you are not at liberty to sanctify homosexuality — or adultery and divorce — on the basis that you were sorely tempted by same sex attraction. You are asking me to believe you are right and God is wrong. But God is faithful; He does not lie.
“Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” You stopped resisting too soon.
“…Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
(And might I suggest that the best place to resist the devil is in accountability relationships with older, mature, faithful, compassionate Christian men and women, and not in the presence of those vulnerable to the same temptations you are…the latter being a formula for almost certain failure.)
Eddy described his own experience of change: “..temptations diminished, on a whole, in both intensity and frequency and ‘not giving in’ was no longer a struggle.” I have heard it described that way before and honestly, it’s all I really wanted or expected. (That and some straight feelings for my wife.) I can tell you It didn’t happen, not even gradually.
I wonder, Eddy, why do you suppose that I never experienced that? I wanted it just as badly, prayed and studied just as hard — and yet the “temptations” did not diminish. The longer I was “ex-gay”, the more intense and frequent my gay feelings became. It was more than “not giving in”. It was never developing sexual feelings for my wife, in spite of the fact that I was a loving, caring and devoted husband.
It was realizing to my shock and amazement that I had fallen in love for the first time in my life — heart, soul, mind and body — but with another man. I didn’t have to try to love Gary in all of these ways. It was sudden, radical and complete — and it kept growing until the moment he died in my arms. Loving him seemed as natural and right as breathing air. I was whole for the first time. And I was even MORE certain that God loved me “just as I am”.
As for EXODUS, it was realizing that our clients were not experiencing “change” or “freedom” either. Not one became straight, was able to remain celibate or was able to “live heterosexually”. Even if they did marry, like me, they had to think about men in order to function. Like Gary and me, their “temptations” had not “diminished, on the whole, in both intensity and frequency” — and ‘not giving in’ was a Herculean struggle that drove some to suicide attempts, alcohol abuse or acts of self-mutilation. This wasn’t freedom. Instead, they were getting more guilt-ridden, self-destructive and depressed.
Some finally quit trying and accepted that their orientation was still homosexual. They realized that maybe God wasn’t “fixing it” because it wasn’t “broken” in the first place. When they did, they were told that they “didn’t have enough faith”, “weren’t really Christians” or that they would “burn in the lake of fire” if they wuit trying — which is EXACTLY what one fellow founder of EXODUS told me.
Well, I have never doubted my salvation or felt tempted to abandon my faith. God’s love will not let me go. I am convinced that nothing can separate me from the love of God. For that deepening of my faith and for the loving gay men who have been my friends and partners since leaving EXODUS, I am truly thankful. As for the harm I may have caused — I am truly sorry.
Many of us, in early Exodus, used to define ‘freedom’ or ‘change’ as “freedom from the life-dominating effects of a sin”. Our meaning: that you weren’t dominated by still engaging in sinful behaviors; you weren’t consumed with guilt by your temptations; temptations diminished, on a whole, in both intensity and frequency and that ‘not giving in’ was no longer a struggle. No more dominion. We called it ‘freedom’.
So, yes, freedom did include the likelihood of, at least occasional, homosexual temptations.
‘Change’ was always ambiguous. Some used it in the sense I described above while others used it to define someone ‘going heterosexual’. My personal belief is that some took advantage of this ambiguity and started using the word ‘change’ as a smokescreen. (If no Q&A session follows, they usually get away with it.) Many have communicated their concerns about the misuse of this word to Exodus directly. Alan Chambers has likely been the recipient of most of the input. It appears that he is responding and beginning to confront this miscommunication.
BTW: there’s another thread re: Alan Chambers and the ‘public divide’. Following the link to a site denouncing Alan’s honesty, I noted that they used the word ‘change’ and/or ‘freedom’ with different meanings in the same paragraph. If you’re wanting to better understand what we mean by ‘christianese’, see how they speak it!
This all reminds me of the author of “Rebecca” – Daphne du Maurier, who led a led a sexually conflicted life. She was bored/despised the “L people” and would not so identify, prefering instead to think of herself as “unique.” She considered that she was really a boy, not a woman. She had grown up “with a boy’s mind and a boy’s heart.” But as time wore on “the boy realised he had to grow up, and not be a boy any longer, so he turned into a girl, and the boy was locked in the box forever. D du M wrote her books, and had young men, and later a husband, and children, and a lover, but… she opened up the box sometimes and let the phantom, who was neither boy nor girl but disembodied spirit, dance in the evening when there was no one to see.”
Quite a box/closet. What does this say about sexual orientation?
Most of that was taken from an article I read a short while (which is why it is in my mind) back by Cathy Pryor in The Independant (UK) entitled,”Daphne du Maurier: Venetian tendencies.” The article is quite a good read, especially if you have read Rebecca – or seen the Hitchcock movie. Du Maurier prefered Venice to Cairo…. code words for her sexual liasons with women and men, respectively.
The article’s URL is:
http://arts.independent.co.uk/books/features/article2537289.ece
I really don’t understand why Alan’s comments are stirring up so such heated disagreement, especially among his fellow believers. Has anyone read the Bible lately? No where does the BIble promise instananeous change or complete transformation– except perhaps in our standing before God — the debt of our sin being cancelled, paid in full by Christ — when we accept Christ as Savior.
If anything, the Bible makes it clear that we WILL struggle all the more. Christ was tempted in ALL things, just as we are, yet without sin. In his letters to the churches, the apostle Paul speaks of his OWN frustrating struggle — that ongoing duel of flesh and spirit that we ALL experience..
What about the PROCESS of sancification and spiritual discipline? Did Bennett and others skip over that part? Don’t get me wrong — I am sure that God can “instantly and completely deliver” — if He wants to, but it seems that Scripture speaks more often of an ongoing battle.
Of course, someday there WILL be “instananeous and complete change” in the “twinkling of an eye” — but not until we behold Him face-to-face and exchange our corruptible bodies for the incorruptible. Until then, we “fight the good fight”. We say the Lord’s Prayer and we thank God for DAILY bread — and then ask him to forgive what must therefore be DAILY trespasses. Why pick on Alan? Give him some credit, OK? Personally, I’m glad EXODUS is being more honest about what “change” is and is not. Keep this is mind: Any person who says he is without sin is a LIAR and the truth is not in him.
From my experience there is not a constant minute to minute struggle but that at times in the past I have had to deal with same sex attraction more closely. That the situation could arise again in the future is how I view it as an ongoing “journey”. And I will never be complete with anything in my life whether it is loving someone, eating a balanced diet, etc… until my death here. So – it is ongoing.
Freedom for me feels different from change. Just my two cents. Maybe it is the same for him.
Chambers tells OneNewsNow he has never met someone who had a “sudden or complete change when it came to homosexuality.”
Chambers made the same statement to Stephanie Simmons of the L.A. Times in a June 18, 2007 article.
He then says in the OneNewsNow article:
“That’s not to say that complete freedom isn’t possible, or that people haven’t experienced an amazing transformation from homosexuality,” the Exodus International president acknowledges. “But I think when we use words like ‘sudden’ and ‘complete,’ it gives the impression that people never struggle again.”
At first this seems like equivocating, but maybe not. Is Alan making a distinction between “complete freedom” and “complete change?” Is Alan saying that, in his opinion, one will always struggle with homosexuality and being able to succeed by not succumbing to homosexual acts is the “complete freedom?”