From a Gay365.com article regarding Equality Ride’s visit to the media, I mean campus of Union University:
Dawn Davridge said that she and her partner, Kathryn Davridge, were expelled from Union two years ago after administrators found out they are lesbians; and in a relationship.
“I fell in love with my best friend,” Davridge told about a dozen students who gathered to hear from the riders. “I am not sick, and I am not a sinner. Two years ago, our story was suppressed.”
The terms sick and sinner have been in numerous quotes from Equality Riders. I assume that this is one message designed to be a take away point from the entire effort. Seems strange to hear someone who is claiming to come from a Christian perspective saying, “I am not a sinner.” To anyone who reads this blog and is up to date on gay integrative theology: When did homosexually attractions come into the human condition, before Adam and Eve fell or after?
“And I cannot read Gen 9:20-24 as about incest or homosexuality. Seeing your Dad in the nuddy, yes. In any case I cannot imagine why you’d blame the son for that, considering it was the father who passed out pissed as a newt and exposed his saggy derriere to the whole World.”
I think the point was that he told his brothers, thus disrespecting his father, which was kind of a big no-no.
It’s an interesting history around “the curse of Ham” as well… and I don’t mean those times we’ve all selected just one too many slices at the Xmas luncheon.
Personally I never got why that curse “proved” non-white races were inferior. But, hey I must be wrong — it was the traditional accepted bible-based explanation for a very long time.
Wonder when it was dropped. (note to self: look up curse of Ham, history)
Which is why gay is bad, because there is no procreating if everyone turned gay
Has anyone told the lesbian “gayby boom” about this???
And I cannot read Gen 9:20-24 as about incest or homosexuality. Seeing your Dad in the nuddy, yes. In any case I cannot imagine why you’d blame the son for that, considering it was the father who passed out pissed as a newt and exposed his saggy derriere to the whole World.
It would take a particular internal dialogue, rather than the words themself, to convert that into incest or homosexuality.
And odd — but I thought this whole Dad nude thing was encouraged to ensure your son didn’t turn gay?
How confusing these people are.
Grace and CK,
Yes, sort of, no. Ack.
I should have used “bible literalist” instead of conservative. You were right to pick that up Grace, even if CK did end up the interpretation I meant. Sort of.
I meant those who believe it to be the literal truth. That it really did happen that way. I take it Grace you aren’t “one of those” 🙂
But I also think it is an “inspired” story, in the sense that someone/s did weave the story together and it’s a good one. Whether the ideas were poked into someone’s head by God, or someone had waaay too much wine one evening, or however. It simply seeks to illustrate the place of man (and women) in this World etc, as do most of the creation stories from the Torah. A story guiding one to “greater truths” (note the deliberate little “t”!)
But I also have no idea of the original text has been corrupted along the way. Find me an original text, and we can go check if it has…
I do know that the Jewish creation story parallels much older creation stories. Stepping back and noticing that men and women have been getting together for eons and wondering “what does THAT all mean?” seems a fairly universal question. The answer need not be exlusionary, as far as gay men and women are concerned, any more than should be the general observation that we are “all” born with 2 arms and 2 legs.
And CK — I’m stunned. I thought God created Adam and Steve, and Eve and Eva, and John, and Mary, and Warren, and DL, and, well, EVERYONE!
I am not sure we could know the answer. If we developed along the lines of some of our cousins, like the bonobos, then I think you could make the arguement that at least the potential for homosexuality pre-existed the Fall. Of course you have the problem of addressing when the Fall happened? Did it include homo erectus and neanderthal? I think a safer reading would be that the Fall is symbolic for the human condition rather than a literal event.
I don’t know. Nobody does. Most don’t care.
What I am interested to know is who did Cain, Abel or Seth have children with…
And why doesn’t the obvious answer match up with human genetics?
A further pertinent question is: at which point did the creation story (understood as such by those who wrote the Jewish Torah) turn into conservative Christian “fact” to be “logically” discussed?
Who corrupted the original???
That one’s c/o a Rabbi — well, he will be 🙂
Warren, good question.
The short answer appears to be after the fall. That is to say it is a result of the fall, rather than a cause of the fall.
Homosexual (and incestuous) attractions and behavior first appear specifically in scripture in Genesis 9:20-24
20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
The perp in this case was the son Ham, but the it was Noah’s grandson who recieve the curse from God. This was of course before God rescinded the family curse in Ezekiel. Incidentally in Genesis 10 we find that Caanan, was the direct ancestor of the inhabitants of Sodom.
Interesting also to note that before there was any sort of Levitical law or any formal type of “holiness” code, this was still viewed as abnormal behavior. As a matter of fact, with only 8 people on earth, it was an abomination.
Although the Genesis 9 account details a specific incident, keep in mind the reason there were only 8 people starting over. Im sure encased within all that wickedness was a good deal of sexual immorality.
Grantdale,
Not all conservative Christians believe that the creation story was told to be taken as literal fact. The question for me is, why is this a story that’s important for me to hear/know? What can I learn from this story? Fact or allegory….what do I do with it? Whether I believe it’s a literal story or an allegorical story, I can’t ignore it’s implications for me as a Christian.
grace