Did Jesus Bless Homosexuality?
Warren Throckmorton, PhD
Many gay religionists insist that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality and thus could not have opposed it. Often conservatives counter that He taught against any form of sexual expression other than heterosexual marriage, so He did not need to specify every sexual act outside of marriage for condemnation. What is the correct position?
Read the rest of the essay at DrThrockmorton.com.
Assuming that your interpretation/translation of the word “eunuch” is correct, I still don’t see how the conclusion you and Dr. Gagnon come to follows from the text. It would seem to me that, to those not called to marriage he provides neither a blessing nor a requirement of abstinence from either same-sex relations or same-sex romantic relationships (since neither their relationship nor their relations create “one flesh” it is a neutral act for which there is neither blessing nor sanction).
Indeed, while this passage by its plain language supports the strong reaction against same-sex marriage by Christians (such relationships do not create “one flesh” in the eyes of God), it undercuts all notions that homosexuality per se is sinful or wrong. It explicitly groups the homosexually inclined (assuming, again, that your translation is correct) together with those who “have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven” as people who should not accept marriage to a woman. If he is not condemning those who do not marry because of the kingdom of heaven, then he is also not condemning those who eschew marriage because they are homosexually inclined. In fact, by this construction he seems to consider both categories almost as a third sex.
Warren, thank you for all you do for those who search for freedom of homosexuality. You are constanting being put down. Please do not give up-the world needs to hear your message. FYI: you may have already seen this website: http://www.myspace/freezach I happened to stumble upon it. It is really sad. This young man, Ben started the site back in June. Take a look at the sorry looking members. Then scroll down to “Forum Topic” then off to the right, “view all topics” These people are so sad, lost & confused. They have such evil and hate in them. It’s none of my business what people do in the privacy of their homes (but please keep it in your home & dont feel the need to post pictures & write all about it) that doesnt mean I agree with them, but I do feel that organizations such as LIA, Focus on the Family/Love Won Out, People Can Change, “I do exist”, etc. etc. have a right to get their message out to society without gay protesters making a scene everywhere they go. What are these protesters afaid of. If they don’t want help, stay home. Other do want help & they have a right to get the help that is available to them. If gays want to live their life in “that way” go ahead, but don’t drag others with them. These people on this “free zach” website actually go out of their way to cause trouble for no reason. These organizations don’t hate “Gays” they are trying to offer help and hope to save these young people who question their feelings. There is another way and it is wrong to keep this information from them. If gays don’t agree, fine. But they shouldn’t stop others from learning more about what freedom from homosexuality is all about.
“My ilkâ€â€”laughable
“Childishâ€â€”even more laughable
I took interest in you “photo†because you said you were “happyâ€. From the looks of your “photo†you don’t look happy. In fact, you look frustrated and angry.
“Ram your morality down my throatâ€â€”Your mindset is that you’re a “victim†and everyone is out to get you. Sounds paranoid to me.
â€I don’t parade my sexuality down the streetâ€â€”no, you just broadcast it on the Internet. The queers in this country (USA) DO in fact parade their homosexuality in the streets whether anyone chooses to watch these lewd and obscene performances they couldn’t care less. They don’t want to “be†offended, but they surely don’t mind “offending†when it suits their purposes. They have also “politicized†their “lifestyle†to the detriment of society in general. I don’t care if you have sex with guys, it’s the invasion of legal, ethical, and moral standards that effect the rest of society that is the issue today. The phrase, “back in the closet, Gomer,†means just that—keep it away from those that don’t want that type of behavior around them. I know, you’ll take this as a personal “attackâ€, but what’s new?
â€As for the rest of you, its pathetic when people like you, need to justify your existance by converting everyone to your particular dogmaâ€â€”that’s a ridiculous statement and you know it. Can’t you come up with anything better?
“Bible bashingâ€â€”another winner.
The emergence of the suicide card again—like I’m responsible for that. Oh, you’re absolutely right. Christians cause homosexuals to commit suicide because “love and compassion†are really evil. We’ve been deceiving the world for centuries with all this “love†talk Whatever you say.
“Isn’t it sad that parents put their dogma before the health and welfare of their childrenâ€â€”it’s sad that you think that way. What’s “healthy†about homosexuality? Parents that “care†for their children won’t encourage them to sleep with members of the same sex. It’s against man, God, and the natural order of things. But, of course, it’s “politically correct†to be “out of order†these days and go against nature and good sense, isn’t it? You’re not in rebellion against me or the status quo, you’re in rebellion against the entire universe and in the end you’ll lose. But God allowed people to “choose†their own ways, so go do what you want—it’s your life and you’ll have to reap the consequences of your actions sooner or later. Bye!
It was bound to happen.
Eventually, someone plays the suicide card. It happens on both sides: “gays are more suicidal because they are unhappy people” or “closeted gays and ex-ex-gays are suicidal because of you dim-witted, bigoted, self-righteous Christians.”
Coming soon: The Nazi Card.
I don’t “need†to correct the Bible. The Bible’s purpose it to correct “peopleâ€. The verse I quoted “was†in context.
As far as you and your “boyfriend†I couldn’t care less if you sleep with him or whatever you do together.
Your little jibe about “homophobia†is right out of the liberal/homosexual mantra for use when anyone disagrees with you. Name-calling 101. It’s stupid to say the least. How about these terms?
Homosexual-antipatheô
have an aversion, to be affected in a contrary manner
Homosexual-asaô
to be disgusted or vexed at a thing
Homosexual-antikeimai
to be opposite or opposed
Your “attempted†little put down was puerile and jejune, sonny boy.
What do you need to repent of? How about homosexuality? Try that one on for size. From the expression on your face in your photo you look as “happy†as the wicked witch of the west when she couldn’t get to Dorothy and Toto.
Walk in your sandals? Not a chance. I have no intention of being a homosexual or experimenting with it any more than I would trying to fly off a cliff without a parachute.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone? You’re really reaching with that one. What do think Jesus is going to do when He returns, pat you on the head and say, “good boy� Here’s a list of those that will NOT be in the Kingdom when He returns:
1Cor 6:9-10 Know you not that the [1]unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh? Be not deceived: neither [2]fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [3]effeminate, [4]nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of Yahweh. (AV)
[1] 94 adikos ad’-ee-kos unjust toward a thing or person, obstinate, unmanageable
[2] 4205 pornos por’-nos a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse
[3] 3120 malakos mal-ak-os’ of persons or modes of life, soft, mild, gentle; faint-hearted, cowardly; morally weak, lacking in self-control
[4] 733 arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy’-tace one who lies with a male as with a female
733 arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy’-tace lying with men
I’m sure you’ll come up with more excuses to try and justify your aberrant behavior, but it doesn’t wash anymore. BTW, the name calling just shows your level of maturity—zilch!!
Little does kaiwai know, he is stepping up the plate with his own brand of “religion.”
either agree with him or your stupid and evil, warren. That’s rite, you have to agree with his take on relationships and love and all that. Also, you have to concede that your religion is wrong, and his is absolutely right.
please do it, and save us the eyestrain of having to read his long winded rants.
Warren,
I think you should a) convert to kaiwai-ism, or b) go hang yourself in your garage.
Moo Man
/sarcasm
Interesting Warren, you deleted a post of mine that was not only on-topic but addressed the issue with subtlety like a sledge hammer; I’ll address it with a bit of sugar this time:
With statements like this, you are doing nothing to help build desperately needed bridges of communication.
Interesting how every-time a gay couple/individuals wish to get the same rights as heterosexuals, be it in terms of protection in the workplace against harassment and discrimination, or their relationship recognised in terms of legislation, be it in de-facto partner status, civil union or same sex marriage; there is a persistent entourage of people – from all walks of life, no just Christians, who seize on that opportunity to vent their anger.
Lets take abortion, for example; I respect the ‘pro-lifers’ logic; the question of where does life actually begin and the whole idea of eugenics; but at the same time, they persistently make their message look like the rantings of lunatics because of fringe elements – the best case, that photo of the man who yelled out, ‘get back into the kitchen where you belong!”
It’s not only Christians that have a strict creed outside of which they will persecute people.
Statements like these are why I think you are one of the most reasonable people here (perhaps on the internet?). I am impressed by your educational background. I take it you are a hardcore Wittgensteinian? Wonder what Wittgenstein himself would say about sexual orientation, or about the recent phenonmenon of sexual self labeling (i sense a headache coming on).
Memphis
ck – Let’s make that link live since it is a good one: http://www.philocrites.com/archives/002289.html
ck – Grove City, PA. Where’s that?
maybe you’ll eventually realise that religion is the noble lie used to control the masse – be it in the form of a political dogma (communism) or in the form of an organised religion.
With statements like this, you are doing nothing to help build desperately needed bridges of communication.
geeez…
My personal opinion as a Christian is that there is nothing wrong with a homosexual orientation, but homosexual behavior itself is sin. At the same time, I’m not one to judge or point the finger. If someone wants behave homosexually, that is his thing, and its between him and God, and not any of my business.
That said, I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Jesus condones homosexual behavior, based on what I’ve read. I think the evidence seems to weigh in more on the side that he didn’t approve of homosexual behavior.
Memphis
Where in my post did I dismiss you as ‘sexual deviates’. The one thing liberals and homosexuals are expert at is “assuming†what other people think and in their own minds making it a reality. You WANT to believe these things, so you do. With no “proofâ€, I might add.
Then why bring up the issue of Jesus finding Homosexuality disgusting if you disagreed with it; interesting how you made no effort to either justify that stance, correct that message in the bible or a the very least, put it into context.
You do what you want. I’m not here to run your life. I’m merely stating you don’t have a leg to stand when it comes to “justifying†your positions.
I don’t need to justify a thing; I’m gay, I’ve got a boyfriend, and I’m love; if you’ve got a problem with that, then maybe you need to see Throckmorton to get that ‘inner homophobia’ sorted out before it manifests itself in other ways.
As far as you wanting the world to change to suit you, good luck. Americans and the Western world have accommodated the wishes of every fringe group for the last forty years and it’s destroyed the culture that was here before you were. Might I add, that God blessed the Western world above every other group of nations with wealth, peace, stability, and good sense before your ilk arrived on the scene and started “demanding†to have your own ways about things. I’ll make no apologies, compromises, or Gay/Straight Alliances with you or anyone else when it comes to God or civilization.!
Oh pulease, how pathetic; you seem to love the re-invention of history to serve your ilks manfesto; run along child and continue reading that Straussian book of yours; maybe you’ll eventually realise that religion is the noble lie used to control the masse – be it in the form of a political dogma (communism) or in the form of an organised religion.
May I suggest you repent and put your clothes back on and start at least “acting†as though you have some sense!
Repent for what? the fact that I’m happy and in love? the fact that I don’t feel the need to hide behind scriptures to justify the some what lacking arguments that you put forward?
Again, why don’t you ‘walk in my sandles’ before casting assertions on how I live my life.
“Let the man without sin cast the first stone”
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”
“Love your neighbour as you love yourself”
I’m sure there are many others I can pull out of my Giddians pocket bible, but I’ll let you keep spreading your false message that Jesus was here to codemn homosexuals, women and all those who don’t fit into your narrow minded agenda.
To Anonymous and Michael,
I must admit though, CK is by far the most reasonable individual here on this board, having read a lot of her posts. There are a lot of others that have basically made up their minds and are stuck.
TO ANONYMOUS
You CAN’T reason with homosexuals at all. I’ve tried before. They don’t WANT to reason, they just want their own way. Tying to reason with them always brings out the hate in them also.
They resort to name calling, false accusations, throwing red herrings at you to jump off subject, or whatever it takes to justify themselves and demonize those that disagree with them.
Obviously, there are some different presuppositions going on here. I can’t speak for Kawai, but I would say that I do not belive Jesus was the YHWH of the Old Testament, and therefore, we must look at those documents, the gospels, and letters of Paul on their own merits.>>>>>>>>>
I’m not about the argue the fact of WHO Jesus was with you. If the Messiah He was and Paul bears this out, it’s good enough. It’s obvious you have done no in-depth study into the subject.
Anonymous said “He’s willing to believe that Elvis is a really a UFO alien if it means having his way” which is an unfair slam that someone like myself might want to take towards Christians… you’re willing to believe that a Galilean peasant is a transcendent and noncorporeal deity if it means having your own way.
Can we play fair, please? >>>>>>>>>>>>>
To use a Bill Clintonism, define “fair”—to EVERYONES satisfaction.
Michael,
You really think you can reason with a “person” like Kaiwai?
He’s willing to believe that Elvis is a really a UFO alien if it means having his way.
Since Jesus was the Yahweh of the Old Testament—you do realize this, don’t you?—He very PLAINLY stated in Le 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (NKJV) Also, Le 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJV)
The word “abomination†used here means something disgusting in Hebrew.
Secondly, you seem to have a rather pathetic attitude to sex and sexuality; why do you find it disgusting that my boyfriend and I love each other? the fact that you can’t understand WHY we love each other, so instead of making a concerted effor tto understand, you instantly dismiss me and a large number of homosexuals as ‘sexual deviates’.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where in my post did I dismiss you as ‘sexual deviates’. The one thing liberals and homosexuals are expert at is “assuming†what other people think and in their own minds making it a reality. You WANT to believe these things, so you do. With no “proofâ€, I might add.
Regarding those searching for ‘justification in the scriptures’ – I don’t know about you, but I learned long ago that I’m not going to have my life held hostage to a set of beliefs; I’m not going to be a slave to either another man or a set of unsubstantiated beliefs that were created based on an agenda of ignorance, control and superstition.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
You do what you want. I’m not here to run your life. I’m merely stating you don’t have a leg to stand when it comes to “justifying†your positions.
As far as you wanting the world to change to suit you, good luck. Americans and the Western world have accommodated the wishes of every fringe group for the last forty years and it’s destroyed the culture that was here before you were. Might I add, that God blessed the Western world above every other group of nations with wealth, peace, stability, and good sense before your ilk arrived on the scene and started “demanding†to have your own ways about things. I’ll make no apologies, compromises, or Gay/Straight Alliances with you or anyone else when it comes to God or civilization.!
May I suggest Michael that you run down to your local Pharmacy and take a large dosage of ‘get over it pills’ – you maybe be misserable, depressing and have a limited scope as to what life is, but please don’t pull others down to your same level.>>>>>>>>>>
May I suggest you repent and put your clothes back on and start at least “acting†as though you have some sense!
I thought the article was very informative and I’ve linked it to the bottom of an article I wrote myself entitled, Christianity and Homosexuals. It’s rather ridiculous for so-called “religious homosexuals†to be searching the Bible for affirmation of their sexual proclivities when the One who became Jesus Christ said that He was “disgusted†by homosexual activity. Was Sodom destroyed because they didn’t pay their parking tickets?
I thought the article was very informative and I’ve linked it to the bottom of an article I wrote myself entitled, Christianity and Homosexuals. It’s rather ridiculous for so-called “religious homosexuals†to be searching the Bible for affirmation of their sexual proclivities when the One who became Jesus Christ said that He was “disgusted†by homosexual activity. Was Sodom destroyed because they didn’t pay their parking tickets?
I take issue with the above statement; where did Jesus ever state, word for word, that he was ‘disgusted by homosexual activity’.
Secondly, you seem to have a rather pathetic attitude to sex and sexuality; why do you find it disgusting that my boyfriend and I love each other? the fact that you can’t understand WHY we love each other, so instead of making a concerted effor tto understand, you instantly dismiss me and a large number of homosexuals as ‘sexual deviates’.
Regarding those searching for ‘justification in the scriptures’ – I don’t know about you, but I learned long ago that I’m not going to have my life held hostage to a set of beliefs; I’m not going to be a slave to either another man or a set of unsubstantiated beliefs that were created based on an agenda of ignorance, control and superstition.
As for why/how/when Sodom was destroyed is inconsequential as to whether homosexuals should be treated with dignity and given the right to access institutions, such as marriage, which the religious organisations claim that they have a monopoly over.
May I suggest Michael that you run down to your local Pharmacy and take a large dosage of ‘get over it pills’ – you maybe be misserable, depressing and have a limited scope as to what life is, but please don’t pull others down to your same level.
Very interesting reseach for a Christian and a therapist like me. No doubt the scoffers will reject the statements of Jesus but for me they make a lot of sense, in light of the culture He lived in. The scoffers may not understand how much mercy this shows but people with diverse sexual appitites may have been stoned if they became known. Thus, His ethic was very advanced toward such persons.
Ck – Very reasonable, as usual. This issue is more of an internal one. If you do not affirm a worldview that cares about what Jesus taught, then this article is pretty much not for you. As you know, most people I work with hold that view so sorting out the meanings is important for them.
grantdale- don’t forget you’re also s’posed to give away all your posessions, so I guess there’s no more posts from Doc Throck after he gives away his computer.
“Blessed are the cheesemakers? What’s so special about the cheesemakers?
Well, obviously it’s not meant to be taken literally my dear, it refers to any sort of manufacturer of dairy products.”
I seem to recall Jesus telling people to always turn the other cheek. I also seem to recall him opening a big ‘ol can of whoop-ass on the money changers at the Temple. Is this a contradiction, or did Jesus perhaps not mean that everything he says needs to apply absolutely literally to every possible contingency that can ever be dreamed up?
Boo
I’ve never heard a convincing argument about the Bible condoning homosexual behavior. It seems pretty clear that the behavior (sex between two people of the same gender) is the sin, but a homosexual orientation in of itself is not.
It almost seems that a homosexual who chooses not to act on his deviant impulses is not in the wrong, whereas two heterosexual men who decide to have sex because of a shortage of women are the sinners.
Again, its the behavior kids.
Guess my article is not so novel after all. At issue is whether Christianity teaches that the standards for sexual morality are Dr. Gagnon believes or as the man in this article.
Not so fast ck!
You’re still property afterall. You modern girls are so uppity. I blame education.
You are off the hook regards marrying a rapist if you get attacked in a field, but please do remember to yell out if it happens in a city otherwise it’s the wedding feast and the exchange of goats and you’re done. Have a nice married life!
I’m still not sure how a teaching that followed a question specifically about against heterosexual divorce relates to gay couples, but then again perhaps I don’t care…
[/double sarcasm]
And why stop reading Matthew 19 at this point. Keep going. (And, sorry, I’m KJV kind of guy).
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
WHAT!!! No mention about homosexuality in that list???
Perhaps Jesus was a bit forgetful that day.
(And anyone want to email James Dobson and remind him about verses 21 to 24? The clocks ticking and times a-runnin-out.)
[/maybe now I’m not being sarcastic]
Dr. Throckmorton,
I would like to link this post to my blog but I’d like to have permission from you before I do so.
Thanks so much.
grace