Mankind Project goes transparent
In 2007, I took some heat over my interest in and criticism of the Mankind Project. My initial interest was sparked by the suicide of Michael Scinto shortly after attending a New Warriors Training Adventure, the signature program of MKP. In addition to my interest in strange approaches to counseling, this program was doubly intriguing because reparative therapists and their supporters (e.g., Joe Nicolosi, Richard Cohen, Arthur Goldberg, Paul Miller) recommend NWTA as a way to reduce same-sex attractions.
Since then, MKP has made it plain that they do not recommend NWTA as a reparative therapy adjunct and they have become quite gay friendly. However, these reparative therapists have not back away from their support. For instance, Richard Cohen, in his book for parents of gay children, recommends that fathers and sons attend the weekend together.
One regular criticism of MKP relates to the secrecy of the activities on the NWTA weekends — and for good reason. Some men would surely not go if they knew of the sometimes odd things they would be asked to do. Some of the odd things are harmless but sometimes they can be upsetting. I list links to some on this blog, such as this one, called Killing Daddy. See this page for more about MKP and click this link for prior posts on the topic.
And so, it was with interest that I read a note from a reader who follows MKP. He noted that MKP is now going transparent. All of this is on my MKP page but here is a couple of sections of the memo.
Transparency and the NWTA: Next Steps
At the February 2009 Annual Meeting in Glen Ivy the Project Council approved a proposal moving MKP toward greater transparency. The full proposal is included at the end of this note, which is intended to let you know the work we’re doing to put the plan into action.
…External Communications
This is the main focus of the initiative designed to increase candor regarding FAQ’s for men coming to the training as well as specifically addressing inaccurate criticism of MKP and the NWTA on the web.
· We are developing a set of FAQ’s to guide men in speaking with potential initiates about the training and the organization. You are encouraged to share information about the NWTA to the extent that it is requested, encouraging men to step into the mystery while answering questions honestly.
· The MKP public website is being revised to include the above material and appropriate “spoiler” warnings. It will include direct responses to some of the specific criticisms and misperceptions on the web (Houston Press, Haven Ministry, Rick Ross, Warren Throckmorton, Reid Baer, etc.)
MKP is going to talk more freely about what they do but they are going to respond to what some of us have published as “misperceptions.” Well, I look forward to finding out what those misperceptions are.
In any event, the proposal for transparency was apparently approved and will result in significant changes if this memo can be believed. Here is the context of the proposal for transparency and some of what is supposed to happen.
Transparency Regarding the NWTA
Context
In our Confidentiality Agreement and the processes Secret Male Ritual and Integrating the Training we ask men not to share the processes on the NWTA. As an institution we maintain this secrecy in how we speak and write about our training. In the last few years we have been criticized on blogs, on websites, and in a suit for not providing sufficient details for men to make an informed decision about attending our training. The ManKind Project has been labeled a cult by some for our refusal to disclose what we do on the training. It is likely that at least some of these attacks could have been avoided if we had provided more information about the training. The cost of these attacks has been significant to MKP and to our centers. At the same time, most, if not all, of our processes have been described in various media, and in some cases our protocols have been made available on websites.
In many contexts, MKP as an institution and we as individuals highly value transparency, and around the globe organizations are being increasingly called to provide transparency about their activities. Nevertheless we have continued to hold an expectation that we can and should keep our NWTA processes secret. Many of us are concerned that knowing more about the training will make it less effective for participants. Others who read about our processes before attending the NWTA say it was still extremely impactful. I have spoken in depth with the Leader and Center Councils about how we hold secrecy and transparency, and the overwhelming response has favored transparency.
Proposal
I believe that on balance, it will serve the ManKind Project to release our expectations of secrecy and step into transparency about our processes. I propose that MKP begin to provide disclosure about our processes to the extent it is requested by potential initiates and the general public. This means:
· Men who have done the NWTA will be released from any obligation to maintain secrecy about our processes, and will be encouraged to share information about the NWTA to the extent it is requested. This applies particularly to men involved in NWTA enrollment.
MKPers can now sing like birds about their experiences. Might as well, many of the processes and procedures are already on the web anyway. But this way, new initiates will know more directly from the people involved what they are getting into. While I still think MKP is a risky proposition given the lack of training of the leaders and the questionable efficacy of the processes, this move is a good one.
Not sure how many MKP or anti-MKP readers I still have but if you are out there, what are your reactions to this move? Do you believe it? Is it enough? Too much?
AHO!
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ManKind Project & or New Warriors is nothing more than a big money maker for a very few people at the top, who get big bucks for a few hours a weekend. It may have started out as being guys helping guys, but it wasn’t long before greed took over.>Aside from all the secrecy and bull shit stuff that goes on, it is just a cover up. guys are such dopes to go for this nonsense. Any benefit short term, long term that one may get is just another pr gimic. The notion that this is going to help people with serious psychological problems is a bunch of nonsense.
I went through the weekend and had a bad reaction. The processes they put us through triggered a manic episode in which I became suicidal. This reaction happened because I am bipolar. I talked to a member of mkp after on the advice of a therapist, I no longer go to, and I was told they know that this happens to some people they had knowledge of other people having similar reactions. Transparency sounds nice but if they do not disclose this danger it will be nothing more than B.S. Furthermore they have never answered one question for me which I would like to know: If they had prior knowledge of these reactions, I disclosed to them I was an unmedicated bi-polar, why did they not warn me of the possible outcome. I hope “Transparency” is the end of MKP but I have a feeling they will hold back the real truth like they did with me, Gestalt therapy has been discredited and shown not to work. Shame on you MKP!
I attended the weekend and did a 6 week follow-up with an I group.
There were professionals running the weekend.
The emotional intensity of the event seemed to be well understood and leaders sought to provide compassionate care, while challenging people to grow.
All growth activities are fraught with risk.
All participants sign a waiver that they understand serious injury is possible…
I doubt there is much money in the weekend…given the number of staff.
As with any activity, including religious conversion, the initial event is less important than the follow-up activities we choose to participate in.
It is a lay activity, based upon Jungian Psychology.
I would recommend it, nor for unwanted SSA in particular, but as an opportunity for personal growth and to have basic, enduring assumptions about human relationships (transference) challenged.
In regards to MKP being gay friendly…
That is an understatement…
The fact that Nicolosi and others refer to such a gay friendly institution should cause us to reconsider some of our criticisms.
If men with unwanted SSA are referred and encouraged to participate and there is a strong gay affirming subculture in MKP; how can those who encourage such participation be viewed offering skewed science and manipulating their clients.
Exposure to gay men who do not experience distress associated with their SSA would be a tremendous risk to the “cult culture” of NARTH and it’s affiliates.
I find it as a bold move, in some regards, that apparently does not “backfire” on Nicolosi and others…it demystifies both masculinity and apparently de-eroticizes
of the compulsive quality of SSA…
A paradoxical intervention worthy of a liberal thinking mind.
David – Well, you are far more charitable than me, my friend
David,
Yes, there are many staff, but most are volunteers and not paid. The few highly paid people go from one city to another like a network for big bucks. It is a scam at best. I find it ironic that NARTH is giving their blessing to SSA people to attend MKP which is going to affirm them as gay, which all the subculture that surrounds this.
I think MKP needs to sue Warren Throckmorton for leaving all of this nasty disinformation and extremely hateful, anti-MKP stuff on the net-
- – -regardless of his stated “change of heart”
I send gay men to MKP and they Google this and I have to spend hours explaining this BS which is all over the net – Gayness is not an issue in MKP, it’s irrelevant–authenticity and taking responsibility for your own BS – whatever your label, is relevant
I am one of many, many gay men in MKP and I love it–I also take responsibility – I get out of MKP what I put into it, period.
-nobody gets rich
I know exactly how little money the paid leaders make in MKP, a few hundred dollars and in Hawaii they often work-exchange with men here. And its HARD work. Getting rich in MKP is BULLSHIT MKP is not for men like Jack who want to live blaming, pointing fingers, being angry, spewing— MKP is for any man who wants to step up and stop screeching and pointing fingers and start living authentically
–
– Why is MKP blamed? answer: his Mom – doesn’t anyone wonder like I do, maybe he committed suicide from spending years with shrill carping.
I am in Hawaii ManKind Project -btw Far away from the Mainland
Much Aloha
Before the weekend I had a dagnosis of “anxiety disorder”. I had a positive experience on the weekend and it helped me open to underlying emotions. After a year of untrained and poorly trained facilitation I had a breakdown was diagnosed with PTSD and then bi-polar disorder. Although there are many positive aspects of MKP I will no recommend it until they address the issue adequately in the igroups. My recommendation for MKP is to cut out “GUTS” gestalt therapy in the igroups entirely or provide liscenced therapists in every igroup. Otherwise the dangers are still there. It is wrong to say that Gestalt therapies are proven “not” to work as they are the basis of much contemporary cognitive techniques. But the evidence is that the effect is not long lasting and that there ate many dangers in it. MKP needs to seriously address these issues. I also want to add that the weekend guts work was good for me – but I needed much more counciling afterwards – which MKP neither provided nor refered me too.
Steve – Shaka cuz.
I did find this ironic:
Followed by
.
Does the pointing fingers and screeching stop now or later?
Steve you just pointed the finger and blamed Michael Scinto’s mom after you said MKP is for men who want to step up and stop screeching and pointing fingers. Is this just a first time being a hypocrite or maybe you don’t even realize you are. MKP makes lots of money. Unfortunately, you are not privy to their finances. Many young men’ lives have been saved because people like Mr. Throckmorton, Houston Press, are exposing this evil organization. MKP has been hurt because of this exposure of the truth of their organization I only hope they truly come through with more informed consent so men can realize what they are getting into. If they did give the correct informed consent I am sure they would be out of business in a New York minute.
Isn’t there a signed consent form that injury and death can occur during the weekend?
Regarding being charitable….that has long been a defect in my character, which has largely led to my own harm.
Don’t some people have psychotic breaks and manic episodes during church retreats?
@ Peter,
If your are aware of the financing of MKP, could you publish what you know and reinforce your allegations?
@ Jack,
if you are awre of the financing of MKP, could you publish what you know to reinforce your arguments?
Warren…this is an important assertion, and if true, bears revealing.
Re: the money, I hear it too and do not know much about it. I did see some 990 form stuff and will post that when I refind it. I would like to see whatever anyone has on that topic.
Re: Church weekends. This may happen but it is unlikely that anything on the weekend triggered the breaks. If your point is that we do not know if the NWTA caused those breaks, the answer is no, of course we don’t, in a scientific kind of way. Intuitively however, I will take my chances on church.
In many ways, the situation with harm and MKP is like harm and reparative therapy. Depends. Some people feel helped and some people feel harmed.
I have met more who have been harmed than helped but I am fully aware that my sampling is probably not representative.
David,
????
What?
David and Steve:
All that is required is simple math. I happen to know from what I saw in a budget paper that very few people are paid and most are volunteer staff, but the few that are are paid are paid in the area of $5,000-$6,000 (and this is several years ago) for a weekend, so I’m sure that it is more now. > These people making their living traveling from one site to another. So, this bullshit of guys helping guys, like a community service thing, which was the original founding principle was abandoned years ago, is BS. Each guy is required to pay $600 x 50 people (probably alot more by now) = $30,000. No way could the expenses for the few facilities that were rented cost $5,000 for a weekend, maybe $1,000. So, most of the money went to a very few people. Everyone that I knew of paid the fee. Although there were some who couldn’t afford it and asked for scholarship help, were turned down and didn’t make it. These few high paid people have highjacked the organization and have made a big business out of this and abandoned the original principles of guys helping guys as volunteers. I know quite a few others who will not go back there for this reason.
Actually, many of the “volunteers”, pay to go to the weekend as well. So, if the “volunteers” are actually paying to “volunteer”, I would say MKP is making a lot of money. After my husband went, we looked into the finances, and yes MKP makes a lot of money that a few at the top get to keep. Like it or not, that is the truth.
I have read the weekend manual as I have a copy of it (the weekend is very scripted from moment to moment) as well as the suggested I-Group activities and many of the other MKP documents. What disinformation is on the net about this group? The disinformation that MKP itself puts out ie how great thou art, MKP lies and keeps secrets. Those of us who have been harmed, get NOTHING back from MKP in regards to the damage they have caused us. Blaming us for being harmed.
Hay, for example, if I come over to you and stab you, is it your fault? Of course it is, you are the idiot that did not get out of the way. That is how MKP thinks. Unless they are on the receiving end of that “knife”, then they blame mommy. Got a problem? Blame mommy or daddy or someone else, but NEVER take responsibility or be accountable for their own choices and actions.
Aggression is rampant in MKP. They don’t seem to understand the difference between “assertiveness” and “aggressiveness”. Thinking that the way to “be a man” is to be cruel to the women in their lives, to the point that many women will leave their husbands who are involved in MKP, or live with abuse. MKP men will then blame the women instead of looking at their own actions and words.
The sister organization “woman within”, think about this for a minute, consider themselves “bitches”, and this is what the MKP men call them. Tell me how that is respectful towards women? It is NOT! It is derogatory, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it, psychologically it creates a negative image towards women.
Grow TF up and stop blaming your mommy/daddy/wife/friend for the choices you now make. Allow people to make informed decisions, meaning give ALL information to people looking at MKP and stop hiding pertinent information from men and their families.
MKP is an LGAT. Look that up. MKP got their start in other “cult” organizations. The founders met at UYO, look that up. As well as Erhard Seminar Training (EST), they have had their own intense issues. Look that up as well.
[...] This seems much like the ManKind Project confidentiality agreement. If what we reported earlier this week is accurate, MKP may be doing away with their confidentiality agreement. Will JiM follow suit? JiM grew out of [...]
That’s very typical of MKP members to blame the women for all men’s problems. I lived with a hard core abusive mkper who is now way up the ladder. The wonderful “growth” organization turned a blind eye to this abusive phychopath and continues to promote him. And being gay is not an issue as far as I’m concerned, but when a married, supposedly heterosexual husband gets to do nude body work (masterbating each other) within his wonderful i-group, but is sworn to withold this secret from his spouse, there is a BIG problem. I know first hand that sexual addiction is RAMPANT within MKP and the group in general are encouraged to be women-haters and learn how to cover it up with mkp-speak.
And for the man that says it is run by professionals – you are obviously new in the program and have NO IDEA what you are talking about. I was in the leadership of the sister organization and there is NO professional training. In fact, the men are even worse in the fact that ANY man that is on staff can process an initiate on the carpet. The fact that there are licenced therapists on these weekends makes it irrelivant because if state boards knew that these people were practicing in this setting would get them in BIG TROUBLE – without all the disclaimers initiates have to sign.
[...] gay-affirming Mankind Project. According to reports, the Mankind Project has decided this year to move toward transparency following the suicide of a NWTA participant in 2007. Tags: Journey Into Manhood, People Can Change [...]
What a creepy sham this Mankind Project is. In my opinion, there is a reason why they screw with the initiates minds after they already have their money. The reason? Because they also charge members for the right to staff their initiations.
Why else would old men and young men drive hundreds of miles to the middle of nowhere just to watch some young guys prance around naked? My therapist is soooooooo fired. It was the creepiest thing ever. The mind control didn’t bother me as much because even though the leaders were swifter than the poor schmucks getting initiated with me, they were not the brightest guys themselves. Just cheesy perverts. Being put on display for a a crowded, noisy, smoky room of cheesy perverts is what creeped me out
I warn any man who has not had a traditional psych assessment. The Mankind Project is not an acceptable method for personal growth or transformation.
My former partner who was very abusive and now admits he mistreated me.
He discovered the Mankind Project and has decided this is all he needs.
My concern is that he will enter into a new relationship eventually but his violent side won’t have been dealt with properly. And then another woman will be hurt badly. I know this because when I have had the chance over the telephone to remind this man that he has not sought respectable and professional care for his violent tendencies, he became violent and used the fact that he is a man so I could not understand this “project” like he does! Um, mankind means humans as a group!!!!
If such an intense “project” does not take responsibility for the mental health of its participants but only takes their money this is a cult — and a dangerous one.