60 Minutes Science of Sexual Orientation: An update from the mother of twins
Recently, I posted a link to a NPR broadcast outlining two approaches to treating children who are gender non-conforming in their play and activity preferences. In light of that broadcast and the controversies surrounding these different approaches, I provide an update from Danielle, the mother of twin boys first featured in a 60 Minutes broadcast originally aired on March 12, 2006. The segment, titled Science and Sexual Orientation, was by any measure a provocative program. The producer answered numerous questions about the show on the CBS website and many blogs, including this one, provided commentary. I still use the clip in some of my classes to illustrate a variety of issues regarding how the media interprets sexual orientation research.
One of the most interesting aspects of the show was Leslie Stahl’s interview with twin 9-year-old boys, Adam and Jared. Recently, the mother of the twins, Danielle, wrote researcher Michael Bailey with an update regarding her son, Adam. Dr. Bailey and Danielle allowed me to share the note on the blog. She does not preach or lecture but rather reports on her experience. First, to set the stage, I want to reproduce an excerpt of the 60 Minutes segment introducing Adam and Jared:
The bedrooms of 9-year-old twins Adam and Jared couldn’t be more different. Jared’s room is decked out with camouflage, airplanes, and military toys, while Adam’s room sports a pastel canopy, stuffed animals, and white horses.
When Stahl came for a visit, Jared was eager to show her his G.I. Joe collection. “I have ones that say like Marine and SWAT. And then that’s where I keep all the guns for ‘em,” he explained.
Adam was also proud to show off his toys. “This is one of my dolls. Bratz baby,” he said.
Adam wears pinkish-purple nail polish, adorned with stars and diamonds.
Asked if he went to school like that, Adam says, “Uh-huh. I just showed them my nails, and they were like, ‘Why did you do that?’”
Adam’s behavior is called childhood gender nonconformity, meaning a child whose interests and behaviors are more typical of the opposite sex. Research shows that kids with extreme gender nonconformity usually grow up to be gay.
Danielle, Adam and Jared’s mom, says she began to notice this difference in Adam when he was about 18 months old and began asking for a Barbie doll. Jared, meanwhile, was asking for fire trucks.
Not that much has changed. Jared’s favorite game now is Battlefield 2, Special Forces. As for Adam, he says, “It’s called Neopets: The Darkest Faerie.”
Asked how he would describe himself to a stranger, Jared says, “I’m a kid who likes G.I. Joes and games and TV.”
“I would say like a girl,” Adam replied to the same question. When asked why he thinks that is, Adam shrugged.
In this email, Danielle reveals that at one time Adam thought he would like to be a girl. In fact, she considered puberty delaying drugs to allow Adam more time to reflect about his gender identity. At one point, he wanted to be a girl and bear a child via his own body.
With this update, Danielle discloses that Adam is not as definite about wanting to transition as he once was. She reports that he has adopted a male identification, albeit a somewhat unconventional one. Here is her update:
Adam has changed since we did the 60 Minutes show. He is the same yet different. From the research done a gazillon years ago about children like him- he’s basically following the guidelines as they were told to me. One day I would love to get my hands on the actual research papers! Anyway, he turns 12 on [recently]. He still shows a preference for society labeled “girl” items, yet he no longer states he wants to change his body into a girl. He no longer talks about having a baby from his actual body or wanting to know when he will start to grow his breasts. I think most of these changes are due to society (school peers) and his awareness of the actual facts of life. His favorite color is now purple instead of pink and he still prefers to buy “girl” tennis shoes. He dreams of becoming an actor/model and being a professional chef. As I stated, from what I know of this past research, he’s reaching the age where he’s blending in with his peers. I expect the next two years of Middle School to be difficult ones. Then he goes into High School where differences are just a way of life. I’m thinking he may actually find out who he is some time towards the end of High School. Again it follows what I know of this mysterious research paper.
I belong to several email groups with other families that have children like Adam. I don’t participate much because I’m not sure if most of them are following the right path with their children. I often wonder “if” I had told Adam that “yes” he could be a girl when he became old enough would he have stayed on that track of thought? However, at the urging of his therapist, I told him I understood he was a girl yet he was really a boy and couldn’t be a girl. A lot of the parents are allowing their children to grow long hair, dress 100 % as a girl, and go to school with a girl name and girl clothing. Therefore they are totally embracing their child in the opposite sex role. The children are living that role and that life style. So have I done my son an injustice by telling him that he has a boy’s body and even if he wants to be a girl during school hours he had to be the boy as his body was made? Then again, I have allowed him to wear just about anything he was comfortable wearing.
It’s a dilemma that I don’t think we will know the end of until this generation of children grows up. What happens if some of these children that have male bodies but are living life as a girl all through grade school finally reach an age where they decide they really don’t want to have a sex change and be a physical girl? Then what will the ramifications be on that child because of the parents’ actions?
It’s not like my child has Down syndrome and I can go to the library and check out 100s of books to get guidance on how to raise him. There just isn’t much out there for parents who face raising a child like my Adam. I have so many questions about parenting him and very little answers. So I go with my gut and wonder daily if I have made the wrong decision or if these other parents are making the wrong decision. Then again, what may be the wrong decision for one child in this situation may be the right decision for the other. Ah, what a world we live in! Fifty years ago we wouldn’t even be having these types of conversations or email groups.
I have to share something about Adam. I have often wondered how these other kids are developing compared to Adam. Many in the groups have started hormone therapy to stop puberty in the kids. That way the kids have more time to mature and make the final decision about the course of their lives. For the boys they won’t develop the deeper voice and the Adam’s apple and male characteristics. If they decide to transition the theory is that it will be easier without these developments. I made an appointment for Adam to have some baseline tests done. I was seriously thinking about doing the hormone therapy for him to give him more time too. However, much to my surprise he was ready deep into puberty. The doctor said we could still proceed with it but I really couldn’t expect to have undone what was already there. He was developing much earlier than expected. Now his twin, Jared, still hasn’t started into puberty. So, my question is - with boys that follow gender non-conformity - do they start developing earlier than their peers? I realize we won’t have the answer for many, many more years to come.
First of all, I am grateful to Danielle and Dr. Bailey for permission to reproduce this communication. Second, I think it is important for clinicians and advocates alike to reflect on what we can learn from this experience. As far as I can determine from available research, most boys who want to be girls later become men who don’t want to become women. Using the new paradigm with Adam may have altered his future in ways that could have added significant complication to his life.
Given that this email was sent to Dr. Bailey, I asked him for commentary.
Danielle is an admirable and unusual mother. She went to great lengths to protect Adam and to show him that she loved him regardless of his gender-related behavior and self-concept. She let Adam express his femininity (e.g., fill his room with “girls’” toys), while providing him with honest feedback about the likely results of his choices, outside their home. She also hesitated–in my view sensibly so–from encouraging Adam to begin a gender transition during childhood. I have met Adam, and I have read Danielle’s updates. I would be surprised at this point if Adam decides to change his sex. He seems a happy boy, and I expect he will become a happy young gay man.
I wonder, with Danielle, about the implications for gender-atypical children whose parents take the other, emerging, approach: allowing children to change their genders preliminary to biological sex changes in adolescence. Children like Adam start showing their behavior early (Adam at 18 months). All evidence we have suggests that only a minority (20% or fewer) of boys like Adam become women eventually. But if parents let boys become girls at childhood, will this drive up the probability? It seems highly plausible that it would. Sex reassignment is not minor medical intervention. It involves major surgery and lifelong hormonal treatments. All other things being equal, sex reassignment is something to be avoided. Of course, not all other things are equal. If a 6 year old boy wants to be a girl, it will cause him more short-term pain to refuse than to acquiesce. The costs and benefits are hard to estimate, and Danielle has been frustrated in her search for data-supported answers. It would be a fitting reward to her admirable example if people could set aside their differences (and the government could uncharacteristically support research on a controversial topic relate to sex), and begin to collect and share requisite data.
Danielle and Adam should remind us that even if treated liberally, gender-atypical children will not necessarily choose sex reassignment. Indeed, perhaps the most liberal goal of all is to allow gender-atypical children to be comfortable in their own (non surgically altered) skin. By all appearances, that is what Danielle has accomplished.
Since this email, I have corresponded more with Danielle. She has added some additional detail which I will report tomorrow. Specifically, she describes how she has responded to Adam when he has expressed questions about transitioning.
It seems to me a live and let live approach would be best, until puberty when the hard choices have to be made. I was put into fairly passive, seemingly non-invasive or pushy therapy, much like Zucker’s, yet I was made miserable by it to the point of suicide.
What is emotionally traumatizing and confusing to a child of 4-10 is completely different than to an adult. Parents, and I think therapists, seem to forget that they aren’t the same. Children are not smaller adults, their brains are still completely different.
My family to this day insists that t here was nothing bad about the therapy that I had as a child, but all I remember was shame, embarrassment, alienation and constant chastising, which lead to a deep depression that I don’t think many pre-pubescent kids ever experience. The therapy was the direct cause of why I tried to kill myself, my parents asked me why I wanted to hang myself and my response at the time was because the therapy wasn’t working, so obviously I was a bad kid and shouldn’t be in the family anymore. I didn’t even understand death yet, but I was willing to suffer it.
I honestly she should put Adam on hormone therapy. Everyone has questions about who they are and where their place is, especially around puberty. And if Adam does grow up to be transgendered, hormone therapy is almost as effective when done during adult years. I would say that Adam’s mother needs to let him make his own decisions about his identity. Yes, middle school will be difficult, but it’s horrible for everyone. When Adam enters high school, he should be in a much more welcoming environment. I would strongly suggest that he join his school’s GSA, and I srtongly encourage Adam and his mother to contact me if they have any questions. I’ve helped many of my friends with similar issues, and I know some fantastic people who can help.
“A lot of the parents are allowing their children to grow long hair, dress 100 % as a girl, and go to school with a girl name and girl clothing. Therefore they are totally embracing their child in the opposite sex role. The children are living that role and that life style.”
It kills me when I read that parents are giving gender dysphoric sons hormone therapy and encouraging them to embrace a female identity. These parents are going to feel like rubes when scientists come up with a simple cure and their grown kids have already gone through “transition” surgery. This is coming sooner rather than later folks.
I’m so glad this mom had the sense to at least avoid the hormones. Like most boys, the dysphoria goes away during the teen years.
I expect he will become a happy young gay man.
But gee, Warren, what if that conflicted with what his church teaches?
Consider what your “Sexual Identity Therapy” actually offers to someone like Adam. If he was growing up in an evangelical household and embraced that faith, he’d likely end up as one of your clients–a tortured individual trying to deny his sexual identity, in order to conform to what you think the Bible teaches.
Fortunately for Adam, his parents are enlightened enough to accept him, and teach him to accept himself, whether his sexual identity ends up as transgender or gay or even a straight man with some feminine traits.
Would you encourage evangelical Christian parents to extend equal acceptance of all those outcomes to their children? Or isn’t it the case that in your model, religious belief trumps acceptance of people as they are?
It kills me when I read that parents are giving gender dysphoric sons hormone therapy and encouraging them to embrace a female identity. These parents are going to feel like rubes when scientists come up with a simple cure and their grown kids have already gone through “transition” surgery. This is coming sooner rather than later folks.
I’m so glad this mom had the sense to at least avoid the hormones. Like most boys, the dysphoria goes away during the teen years.
Exactly how to fix something genetic/hormonal/brain deep without completely destroying the person? Do you think Adam wants to be different? He seems completely happy with who he is.
You advocate destruction of personality. If you completely alter someone, or drug them into being another person when they were perfectly happy before, what exactly have you done, except erase a person from existence?
Even if there was a medicinal or brain surgery to cure my GID, I would never undergo it, ever. It would alter my entire existence, I would likely commit suicide within a year, and be successful that time.
It kills me when I read that parents are giving gender dysphoric sons hormone therapy and encouraging them to embrace a female identity.
Just the sons bother you, eh? Daughters, whatever, let’s focus on the precious boychildren?
I’m so glad this mom had the sense to at least avoid the hormones. Like most boys, the dysphoria goes away during the teen years.
These kids don’t get cross-sex hormones in childhood. What they get are drugs that delay puberty, which have no permanenet effects. In all of these cases estrogen isn’t administered until at earliest 14-15, so again they’ve still got time for it to “go away” in teen years.
The article doesn’t go into the details, but at first reading it sounds like this kid’s GID was less intense than that of Jona and other kids who transition. Was there a long period where Adam was adamantly insisting that he was a girl, experiencing extreme anxiety at having to interact with the world as a boy, or was he always just more of a femmy boy?
However, at the urging of his therapist, I told him I understood he was a girl yet he was really a boy and couldn’t be a girl.
There’s just something a tad oogie about therapy that involves lying to your child.
What happens if some of these children that have male bodies but are living life as a girl all through grade school finally reach an age where they decide they really don’t want to have a sex change and be a physical girl?
Haircut and a trip to The Gap.
But at the end of the day, chalk this up as another fairly leave-it-alone approach where the kid turned out fine without resorting to Zucker’s kiddie torturing approach.
I realize that Adam wanted to birth a baby with his own body but nothing was said in the discussion about his sexual and affectional preferences. So, will Adam turn out gay because that’s what this was all about in the first place or will he turn out gay because society has concluded that any boy who experiences transgender feelings is actually gay? (What if he turns out to be a lesbian trapped in a man’s body?)
Pathia
Nature already has some sort of built in dysphoria repair mechanism that occurs during puberty. Most of the time it goes away on it’s own. Copying Mother Nature isn’t going to hurt anyone.
Nature already has some sort of built in dysphoria repair mechanism that occurs during puberty. Most of the time it goes away on it’s own. Copying Mother Nature isn’t going to hurt anyone.
Serious ethical problems and highly likely bad side effects aside, your Brave New World treatment doesn’t exist yet. The “treatment” right now involves crushing children’s souls. Is there another example of therapy where a successful outcome can be a suicidal child? Cause offhand I can’t think of any.
Another case: Rebekah had twin boys; one preferred masculine activities, the other preferred at-home activities more like a girl. Both were allowed to mature in their own ways, without therapy, drugs or hormone treatments. Eventually both married and became fathers. (Any societal pressures to become GLBT etc. had been annulled.) The “non-masculine” twin fathered 12 sons and at least one daughter. The “masculine” twin fathered five. –So what does this show? Who are we to assign “masculine” or “feminine” traits? Let the kids grow up and lead their own lives, using the gifts they are endowed with. So far, I think Danielle is doing a great job!
Boo
Is there another example of therapy where a successful outcome can be a suicidal child?
It’s impossible to blame that on the therapy. The other day I heard that 3 out of 4 couples who enter marriage counseling eventually divorce. That isn’t the therapists fault. Dysphoric kids have a lot of problems BEFORE they enter therapy.
Dave G,
I’m with you. Let the kids grow up.
Nature already has some sort of built in dysphoria repair mechanism that occurs during puberty. Most of the time it goes away on it’s own. Copying Mother Nature isn’t going to hurt anyone.
I wasn’t suicidal until I was put into therapy, and I was not in it for that long. My parents may insist the therapy was harmless, but they do not deny that it was like a dark cloud of despair rolling over me.
And what puberty? In my case and in dozens of others that I know, we barely had one, because we were also intersexed! But no one bothered to check out. I didn’t HAVE a puberty, I didn’t even get a wash of hormones of either sex when I was young. Except my parents forced testosterone on me against my will, to force a puberty on me. That ended up leading to two more suicide attempts, one of which involved with me waking up in the hospital. It also caused me to break out in rashes and hives to such an extent they had to put me on such a high level of antihistamines that I was doped out of my mind so badly that I failed half my classes my senior year, but it was all for my ‘good’ because god forbid I be DIFFERENT.
Pathia
I wasn’t suicidal until I was put into therapy, and I was not in it for that long. My parents may insist the therapy was harmless
There is a 99.9% chance that your parents are correct. Therapy, or talking about problems with a friend or family member is harmless at the very worst. What could your therapist have said that made an otherwise happy, well adjusted kid turn suicidal?
Hormone shots or medicine in general, now that’s another story. Anything is possible.
“What could your therapist have said that made an otherwise happy, well adjusted kid turn suicidal?”
That my grandparents would hate me, that other kids would beat me up and tease me. That I would be mocked and called words like ‘faggot’. That how I was acting was wrong, counter to scripture. That I would burn in hell. That I would be a failure in life and die of painful venereal diseases at a young age, that I would be cursed to fall into a pile of salt like Sodom and Gomorrah.
That is what the therapist told me.
Hormone shots or medicine in general, now that’s another story. Anything is possible.
I wasn’t forced actual medicine or hormone shots until I was 16. I had already been miserable for almost a decade. The only way I was able to get away from the treatment forced on me by my parents and their faith was to run away and live on the streets from 17-18 until I was my own legal self and able to go to college on government loans.
Pathia - You probably have a malpractice claim on your hands there. I feel badly that you went through that.
That bears no resemblance that I can see to what Dr. Zucker advocates.
Warren, I don’t even know the doctor’s name, I started that therapy almost 20years ago now. I’m pretty sure the statue of limitations is out.
He was affiliated with NARTH, or at least claimed to be, according to my parents. Though my treatment started before NARTH was founded, so I am not entirely sure. Given that I am to this day still estranged from my family it makes it difficult to find out things from when you were eight. Needless to say only a few things are clear, most of it is quite blurry.
Pathia,
I’m glad you made it.
Pathia,
I’m glad you made it.
I am still working at it, I’m 28, but where most people are at about 22 I think. Though this seems to be more common now a days for better for worse.
I feel bad for droning on about my own life, but what happened to me shouldn’t happen to anyone else, even aspects of it. I just can’t stand the fact that more people than myself had to go through what I did, and I still find and ear about folks every day that have gone through the same kind of crap I did.
For me living on the street and scrounging food out of the garbage and flipping tricks for cash was better than being in therapy. That’s how bad it was to me.
I hear ya’. In many ways we are all still making it. And yes, scrounging for food and turning tricks was better. I don’t know if you are a christian or read the christian bible but somewhere in there it says that sometimes we are so hungry that even what is bitter tastes sweet. Not to the same degree that you have been, but I too have had bitterness that was sweeter than starving for understanding , acceptance, and love. I hope that made sense to you.
There is a 99.9% chance that your parents are correct. Therapy, or talking about problems with a friend or family member is harmless at the very worst. What could your therapist have said that made an otherwise happy, well adjusted kid turn suicidal?
Are you even bothering to pay attention to this stuff? The biggest part of this “therapy” is forced behavior modification. You’re actually saying that therapy, even the wrong kind of therapy, can never worsen someone’s problems? That’s obviously why therapists never have to carry malpractice insurance. Oh wait…
That bears no resemblance that I can see to what Dr. Zucker advocates.
Of course, he just does behavioral coercion which obviously can never cause problems.
Bradley has been in therapy now for eight months, and Carol says still, on the rare occasions when she cannot avoid having him exposed to girl toys, like when they visit family, it doesn’t go well.
“He really struggles with the color pink. He really struggles with the color pink. He can’t even really look at pink,” Carol says. “He’s like an addict. He’s like, ‘Mommy, don’t take me there! Close my eyes! Cover my eyes! I can’t see that stuff; it’s all pink!’ “
Denial ain’t just a river in Africa, guys. The kid is depressed and withdrawn, and seeing pink gives him anxiety attacks. A shining success all around, surely. No potential suicidal risk here, nuh-uh.
Los Angeles, London, New Delhi, and Singapore (14 January, 2008) – Psychotherapies such as cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) are under-regulated in the UK and should be subject to the same standards of evidence as drugs, assert two experts in psychological medicine writing in the Journal of Psychopharmacology (January issue published today by SAGE). They say the largely unrecognized potential for serious adverse effects resulting from talking therapies means rules should be tightened, particularly in light of the UK Government’s recent £150m investment in psychotherapy services for depression and anxiety, which will result in many more therapists practising in the UK.
Why doesn’t Drowssap just tell them all its unnecessary?
Another case: Rebekah had twin boys; one preferred masculine activities, the other preferred at-home activities more like a girl.
And this has what to do with a kid who’s adamantly insisting that they’re a girl, wanting everything pink and girly, begging for dresses, freaking out about having to interact with the world as a boy, for years on end?
And that whole coming up with a reason why childhood GID should be the only diagnosis exempt from the DSM’s provision that social nonconformity is not to be taken as evidence of mental disorder? Whenever you can get to it.
That how I was acting was wrong, counter to scripture. That I would burn in hell.
…that I would be cursed to fall into a pile of salt like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Forgive my natural skepticism but it’s pretty hard for me to believe that a therapist would say this.
Forgive my natural skepticism but it’s pretty hard for me to believe that a therapist would say this.
Then think of me as a liar, it doesn’t change what I remember as a child.
In an online forum, there is no way to know what is true. However, I am aware of therapists who might say such things and this is one of the reasons for the sexual identity therapy framework.
I think skepticism is generated by your comment about NARTH prior to NARTH’s existence. One of the NARTH advisory board members said gender variant kids should be teased at school to fix them so it is hard to discount the content. You may have some reconstructions that make up memories. Most of us do.
Again, what you are describing is nothing like Drs. Zucker or Bailey are promoting.
I think skepticism is generated by your comment about NARTH prior to NARTH’s existence.
And I admitted as such. I was only eight, I will not discount constructed memories, however I do recall being made to feel like filth to the point of despair. Which the therapist was kind enough to point out was a sin as well.
I can’t say he lied though, I was assaulted in school more than a few times, hospitalized once with a concussion. That we *DID* sue over, but I have no idea what happened to it, my parents kept me isolated from the incidentals of the settlement.
Pathia
Then think of me as a liar, it doesn’t change what I remember as a child.
I’m not saying it’s not true. I’m just saying that it raises my skepticism. That doesn’t mean it’s not 100% true. It just seems incredible to me that a psychologist would tell you that you are going to be turned into a pillar of salt.
It just seems incredible to me that a psychologist would tell you that you are going to be turned into a pillar of salt.
As far as I know he wasn’t a psychologist. I use the word therapist for a reason. He had a theology degree I think.
Given that:
1. scientists don’t know exactly what causes GID
2. they don’t know what makes 80% of GID kids grow out of it before puberty
Danielle seems to have taken the most reasonable decision. There simply is no evidence to support greater likelihood of GID stability well into puberty.
Now, the problem is which child will grow out of it and which not? That question will only be answered as research comes up with more predictive factors both for GID and for the probability to vanish by itself in later years. Until then, the best decision is to not rush into one course that could commit the child in the future to serious body modifications, as Bailey pointed out.
The 60 Minutes story is even more fascinating for all the implications both for gender identity and sexual orientation research. That case of identical twins with different sexual orientations really screams out! There is no ‘older brother’ effect to explain the difference in outcomes. There are two possibilities: either one brother has discordant self-concept and attractions (one could be bisexual) or genetic factors have a lower influence on sexual orientation than was previously presumed.
Too bad research is so slow in this field. It’s not the first time I hear Bailey complaining about the support this kind of research gets from the government.
There are two possibilities: either one brother has discordant self-concept and attractions (one could be bisexual) or genetic factors have a lower influence on sexual orientation than was previously presumed.
Identical twins are not identical. DNA diverges and unravels differently. This is becoming apparent, especially with cloning experiments. The clones, despite being exact duplicates, often end up looking completely different than the ‘parent/twin’ whatever you want to call them.
Pathia
The clones, despite being exact duplicates, often end up looking completely different than the ‘parent/twin’ whatever you want to call them.
You are correct, identical twins are different and one factor is genetic expression. However genes express according to their environment.
Google:
Environmental factors weigh heavily in modulating gene expression in humans
(this is how I avoid the spam filter)
A gene that caused dysphoria wouldn’t commonly express itself because it causes trouble for it’s host. Genes are there to help us, not cause pain. Exceptions to this rule are few and far between.
Until then, the best decision is to not rush into one course that could commit the child in the future to serious body modifications, as Bailey pointed out.
Nobody is committing any of these children to serious body modifications. If Jona wants to stop being a girl, all Jona has to do is say “I want to stop being a girl.” Do you really think her parents or anyone else would try to keep her committed to it?
Again, what you are describing is nothing like Drs. Zucker or Bailey are promoting.
It’s not that far from what Zucker does. Again, the whole pink anxiety attack thing- any comment?
Boo
The point is that parents shouldn’t encourage their son to believe what is measurably false. He is a boy, not a girl. The fact that he believes otherwise is an indication that some wires are crossed. He should be encouraged to be a boy and any fantasies he might have are just that, fantasies. Love and consistency can probably go a long way in helping these kids. Maybe not all the way, but a long way.
How it all sorts out in adulthood is up to their son when he becomes 18.
“The fact that he believes otherwise is an indication that some wires are crossed.”
What happens if your mythical science cure that will come out of nowhere can only be set in place in the womb? What then? I don’t doubt there may eventually be a way to tweak a child in the womb to more likely be straight or non-GID. But what about the ethics of such a thing?
Pathia,
If it’s true that people who transitioned have to keep doing hormonal treatment, then maybe one day, given the technology, the reverse could become possible: doing treatment to keep gender identity problems at bay. It could be parents’ decision, first, and then later involve the child too. The cost of not transitioning would be far lower, both in moral and physical terms, than doing sex reassignment surgery.
Obviously, every brain condition must have a physiological component and physiology is liable to chemical treatment. After all, you cannot either decide that what that person is is only restricted to a few low-masculinised brain areas. It’s more reasonable to change less, if the option becomes available.
By the way, this is still not settled. Scientists have not proven yet how hormones and other pre-natal factors determine one’s brain structure. (I know of at least one study on model animals, that says some sexually dimorphic adult brain structures, involved in sexual arousal, can change as a result of changes in levels of circulating hormones. Maybe that could be the case with human brains too, but research cannot proceed due to ethical problems.)
“If it’s true that people who transitioned have to keep doing hormonal treatment, then maybe one day, given the technology, the reverse could become possible: doing treatment to keep gender identity problems at bay.”
That may be an option for some, at some point in the future, but I would rather die than under go a treatment like that. I am intersexed ontop of it all, god knows what sort of side effects such a drug/gene therapy would do to me considering I have enough sex chromosomes for another person, if not moreso.
I won’t deny circulating hormones can change someone mentally. I was exclusively gay/male oriented before I transitioned, now I am straight in the middle of the road bisexual. It could be psychological, or it could be biological. Like everything in the world, it’s likely a little bit of both.
I would still refuse the treatment. I would also imagine most gay men and women would refuse a similar treatment too, unless they were actively seeking to change.
Pathia
What happens if your mythical science cure that will come out of nowhere can only be set in place in the womb? What then?
If you said that a year ago I might have shrugged my shoulders and said, I dunno.
But a few weeks ago Evan posted one of the most fascinating stories I have ever read on this subject.
Google:
Sexual Circuitry When Minnie Turns Mickey
It’s a story in Harvard Magazine Online that discusses gender in mice. Scientists created instant, adult transgender mice by turning off one tiny organ in their nose. That and a lot of other things leads me to believe that transgenderism isn’t oocurring in the womb. One neurotransmitter probably seperates the feeling of male/female identity. Kids probably lose this neurotransmitter very early in life in the same way narcoleptics lose Orexin.
Pathia
One thing I should add…
Now that scientists know that turning off an organ in a mouses nose alters it’s brain chemistry they’ll figure out which neurotransmitters are involved.
When those same neurotransmitters are used in humans don’t be surprised if they instantly cure dysphoria. When that story gets blasted all over the Internet make sure you come back to Throckmorton to read my huge
I TOLD YOU SO!
Good Heavens!
I agree with Dr Bailey, in both his reasoning and his conclusions!
That’s almost identical to a comment I made that WordPress appears to have eaten.
More please, frpm both sides. More light, less heat, and let us not get too confused with past mistakes.
The point is that parents shouldn’t encourage their son to believe what is measurably false. He is a boy, not a girl. The fact that he believes otherwise is an indication that some wires are crossed. He should be encouraged to be a boy and any fantasies he might have are just that, fantasies. Love and consistency can probably go a long way in helping these kids. Maybe not all the way, but a long way.
How is it measurably false? These kids aren’t delusional. They aren’t saying they, like, have vaginas when they really have penises. They say they like girl stuff because they actually like girl stuff. They interact with people like girls (or boys), they think like girls (or boys), while having boys (or girls) bodies. They know what their bodies are, so where exactly is the measurable falsehood? Those who transition and interact with the world as girls (or boys) by all accounts do great, and yes, they get plenty of love and consistency. If and when the time comes, they correct their bodies to the fullest extent modern medical science allows for, which is their choice to make when they get older.
The only reason you want to “fix” them is because you don’t want to deal with them, because they make you uncomfortable. If the problem is located outside the child, then it’s someone else’s problem. You notice I’ve asked that question about social noncomformity like three times and no one’s even tried to answer?
When they find the neurotransmitter that cures bigotry and shoot it right into your brain, don’t worry, I won’t give you a big I told you so.
Boo
Gender dysphoric boys don’t just like “girl stuff” better than boy stuff.
Gender dysphoria means they believe they are the opposite sex. I’ve only seen one serious case in my life. There is no mistaking it when you see it. It is a serious, mental disorder.
Drowssap -
The point is that parents shouldn’t encourage their son to believe what is measurably false. He is a boy, not a girl. The fact that he believes otherwise is an indication that some wires are crossed. He should be encouraged to be a boy and any fantasies he might have are just that, fantasies. Love and consistency can probably go a long way in helping these kids. Maybe not all the way, but a long way.
That is true Drowssap, but at the same time, the parents should not force on the child what the child does not want. Being encouraged to be a boy doesn’t mean the child has to play with GI Joe, or love toy trucks, etc… The mother in the story above is a real testament to what unconditional love is like, and what it can do. SHE is a great role model, although I’m sure she probably wouldn’t see herself as such.
Drowssap - forgive me for being too unconventional here, but you say
Now that means you must have a clear idea of what the sex is, especially if you are to diagnose someone as having a “serious mental illness”.
Do you base it on chromosomes, endocrinology, soma (body shape), neurology, “mind”, socialisation, documentation, or what? A combination of those that must be judged on individual merit? Or is there one touchstone?
Remember I speak as someone who is Intersexed. I would prefer to be a 100% standard model female, but I’m not, never have been, never will be.
Case in point : one of the children that was a “success” according to Dr Zucker in the follow-up of 25 girls with GID.
A child was born with male chromosomes, normal testes, but “micropenis of unknown cause”. This child was surgically castrated, as it was thought that a normal male life was impossible, and he’d be better off as a girl. This disregards the experience of transsexual men, who manage quite well even without testes.
Later, “she” showed signs of a male mind, and so was diagnosed as a girl with gender dysphoria, and treated by Zucker for that.
Was he a boy who had been mutilated as an infant, or was she a girl with a mental illness? This is not a hypothetical question, it’s an actual case.
In fact, of those 25 girls, 4 were intersexed in one way or another, and had been surgically altered to look like girls.
Zoe Brain
Now that means you must have a clear idea of what the sex is,
Do you base it on chromosomes, endocrinology, soma (body shape), neurology, “mind”, socialisation, documentation, or what? A combination of those that must be judged on individual merit? Or is there one touchstone?
XX = female
XY = male
Yeah, I know there are some strange exceptions as there should be with billions of people on the planet, but that basic definition works well enough to explain 99.9% of everything we see.
Drowwsap -
I’d be careful with that 99.9% number
Jayhuck
parents should not force on the child what the child does not want
I can tell from that comment that you are not a dad.
As any parent will tell you 99% of their day is spent telling their kids to eat, get dressed, take a shower, study, go outside and play, go to bed, etc. etc. Kids require constant supervision and guidance.
Jayhuck
I’d be careful with that 99.9% number
Ok, maybe it’s 98.9% but it is a good enough measure to explain virtually everything.
Drowssap -
You completely missed the point. Telling the kids to do things they NEED to do is one thing, forcing a child with issues such as the children above to like or love things they do not like is another thing entirely. I have a great deal of experience with children - and unconditional love, that you seem to tout, involves a parent NOT enforcing their own particular will on a child under such circumstances - the parent will not win in the end if they try this anyway - as the other parent in the NPR story quickly found out.
Zoe Brain
A child was born with male chromosomes, normal testes, but “micropenis of unknown cause”. This child was surgically castrated
To me that is just plain ridiculous. Something went wrong which caused this boy’s penis to grow really small. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t a boy. By comparison is a really hairy man, not really a man? Maybe part ape? That’s just crazy logic.
Being a boy doesn’t mean liking or wanting to play with GI Joe or trucks anymore than being a girl means one has to like or play with Barbie or kitchen sets. These are ideals and stereotypes created, sometimes, by the media and corporations. Many people fit these stereotypes - sure - but many don’t, and its not a bad thing or detrimental to the kids. Having the parents force desires or likes on a child, however, IS detrimental!
Ok, maybe it’s 98.9% but it is a good enough measure to explain virtually everything.
Maybe, you’ve got two of us right here (Zoe and myself), and we both have entirely different conditions that made us this way. I can’t count how many transgirls and boys I’ve met that ended up discovering that are intersexed or have/had some sort of hormone anomaly that was undiscovered until after their GID diagnosis.
Jayhuck
Telling the kids to do things they NEED to do is one thing
IMHO every effort needs to be made to help children with this problem learn to live in the skin they were born in. That definitely falls into the “need” category more than say taking a bath each night. Luckily for the kids involved most of the time this seems to fix itself during puberty.
Any parent with a longterm view of their child’s future is going to take this into account when they consider nurtering an opposite sex identity in very young children.
Pathia
I can’t count how many transgirls and boys I’ve met that ended up discovering that are intersexed or have/had some sort of hormone anomaly that was undiscovered until after their GID diagnosis.
Ya know, I wonder how many gender related biological anomolies show up in completely straight, non-dysphoric people. I’d imagine quite a few.
Until we really know what causes the feeling of being in the wrong gendered body I’m not sure how much this stuff is really causing dysphoria. I put my money on some very, simple wiring in the brain that can be turned on and off like a light switch once we understand it. I don’t think that will be long, a decade tops. Time will tell.
I put my money on some very, simple wiring in the brain that can be turned on and off like a light switch once we understand it.
Considering the amount of drugs I’ve done legal or otherwise, I somehow doubt that anything science comes up with anytime soon will flip that switch. I’ve had many switches flipped, so to speak, but never has my GID gone away.
Pathia
Considering the amount of drugs I’ve done legal or otherwise, I somehow doubt that anything science comes up with anytime soon will flip that switch.
hehe, understood.
But I think in this case it’s not just random chemicals shooting around in the brain that might switch gender on/off. Very specific neurotransmitters do the job.
Google
When Minnie Turns Mickey
Damaging one tiny organ in the nose of adult mice makes them instantly transgendered. This not only shows that both male and female wiring is present in all brains, it also shows that brain chemicals can turn these on and off at any time. You don’t learn to be a girl or boy, these instincts are precoded.
Google
Files get mind-control sex swap
Scientists learn how to change the gender orientation of flies as easy as flipping a switch. Once again it shows that male/female wiring is in everyone. Specific neurotransmitters supress or express it.
Google
In fruit flies, homosexuality is biological but not hard-wired, study shows
Same basic idea. One chemical changes sexual orientation more or less instantly.
We aren’t going to figure this stuff out in 50 years. It’s more like 5 or 10 years and we’ll have some basic idea of how humans work.
Pathia
Think of it this way. Maybe 20 or 30 years from now there will be drugs on the black market that some people will pay top dollar for that create the feeling of being the opposite sex. And all this time, you had that for free.
Think of it this way. Maybe 20 or 30 years from now there will be drugs on the black market that some people will pay top dollar for that create the feeling of being the opposite sex. And all this time, you had that for free.
I don’t suffer from GID anymore. If I were given this treatment it would MAKE me GID again. I don’t really even think about my body, or my life as living ‘opposite’ or anything. I’m just…me… The only time it comes up anymore is in online discussions like this, I don’t even discuss it in reality, there’s no need. I’m just…me!
Drowssap - depending on your definition, it’s 98.3%, or close on 99.8%. The majority, anyway. 1.7% are technically IS, but if you exclude minor conditions, it’s more like 1 in 500.
But we’re not talking about “majorities”. I exist. Over half a million people like me exist in the USA alone. A minority we may be, but you can’t just ignore us as being unworthy of consideration.
Please, give me a definition of male and female that covers people like my boyfriend (who is 90% 46xx, 10% 46xy, and has transitioned from FtoM), one of my girlfriends who’s just had MtoF surgery (she’s 47xxy), a person I know with Swyer syndrome (46xy, but capable of giving birth as a surrogate mother), and me (46xy, but feminised by Androgen Insensitivity, then masculinised with Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia - we think)
I agree, for most people on the planet, 46xy+male gender identity+male genitalia+male endocrinology+male soma, or 46xx+female etc etc go together. That’s not the issue.
Please answer the question. I’m not trying to trap you, or win some debate for the sake of winning, the question is not hypothetical for me.
Pathia,
I’m a bit of a sucker for brain science these days.
Can you tell me a few switches you managed to flip during your experiences?
I’m a bit of a sucker for brain science these days.
Can you tell me a few switches you managed to flip during your experiences?
The senses are quite capable of being flipped (Fractals taste like the best creme brule ever for example). I’m pretty sure you can figure out what does that, it’s fairly overgeneralized in the movies though.
Also, under the right situations I can be hypnotized into the state of feeling species dysphoric. As in, I can become convinced I am actually not human for a time. I will become quite distressed when people say I don’t have a tail, for example. I suppose that’s the closest to another dysphoria I could say I could flip on and off
Pathia,
LOL! I have read about the phantom limb syndrome, but never heard about any dysphoria involving a missing tail (one that actually never was there).
But the interesting fact I have found in a few messages on this blog is that transgender people can feel greater fluidity in sexual orientation. Is that true? How fluid can sexual feelings be for a transgender person? Do they fluctuate following a certain pattern in time or towards particular types of people? Is any of that related to changes in diet and/or hormonal changes?
Zoe Brain
Please answer the question. I’m not trying to trap you, or win some debate for the sake of winning, the question is not hypothetical for me
What’s the exact line of demarcation between male and female?
That’s not a trap, that is a good question that I might not be qualified to answer.
However I’ll say this, in all the chats I’ve ever had I have never talked to someone with an opposite sex bone structure. The other thing I’ll say is that I think the term born “intersexed” is far too broad. Take the child born with a tiny penis or undescended or poorly formed testicles. That’s not intersex. That’s an indication that something went wrong as the boy formed. Are midgets only part human because they are half our size? No, midgets are 100% human but with a physical disability. Just because something went physically wrong doesn’t mean that someone isn’t entirely one gender or the other.
However those things probably have no impact whatsoever on our personal sense of gender.
Beyond any shadow of a doubt our conscious mind senses it’s gender due to the presence of specialized neurotransmitters. We already understand the basics in animals. It’s only a short matter of time until we figure out humans.
Drowssap,
Man, you’re optimistic! But consider the fact that those flies and mice are easy to grow and manipulate. What is more, they are easy to study, sometimes using invasive technology. You can switch genes on and off and see the results. You can change gonads and see how that affects gender-typical behaviour. But you’re still building links between genetic and biological alterations and behaviour. You cannot ask mice to rate their sexual phantasies on the Kinsey scale. And you cannot manipulate genes in humans to see how they jump around looking for mates.
But I hope you are right. After all, the pace of scientific discovery is not predictable. But we do have some ideas about the limits of present technology. Scientists can tell that we cannot see with great precision the size of some small brain areas in infants and how they develop in time, given some variables. Now that is a great limitation.
__
Anyway, I’m not so sure that biology and genetics will sort it out. Maybe after they have their say, we’ll scratch our heads and go back and look into how society can work with genes and biology. I expect to find more surprising inputs from society than from a bunch of proteins. What we understand by nature has not worked the same in different historical periods. There must be some cyclicity in how humans work their nature. Whenever past civilisations became more liberal they explored body limitations, including gender and sexual flexibility.
Evan
Man, you’re optimistic!
I think scientists are incredibly close to understanding gender. Somebody needs to find out which neurotransmitter(s) get whacked when that tiny nose organ is turned off in mice. Realistically they are probably working on that right now. By the time regular folks like you and me hear about this stuff it’s going on all over the world. It might (or might not) work differently in humans but I doubt that we are vastly eskew of mice. The fact that transexuals exist at all is a strong indicator that we aren’t different from other animals. Male/female wiring is in everybody, it just depends on what is turned on/off.
Side Note:
If this turns out to be true (and it will) that means that transexuals grew to adulthood missing a key neurotransmitter that tells masculine circuits to operate. Even after scientists give this natural chemical to Dysphoric individuals and it cures their GID I wouldn’t be surprised if they tend to be more feminine than the average guy. They’ve had a lifetime of feminine experiences. Therapy might be a huge benefit for many of these people.
Somebody needs to find out which neurotransmitter(s) get whacked when that tiny nose organ is turned off in mice.
I really doubt this, especially since it is obviously scent oriented. I know people who have kallman’s, this means they have zero sense of smell, it’s completely disabled, and they are trans.
How is any sort of neurotransmitter in the nose, that operates via signals misfiring when they don’t even have a sense of smell?
Drowssap
Good, Honest answer. I’m sure that I’m not qualified to answer it either, but we have to, don’t we? To take our best guess, and cross our fingers. Otherwise we can’t talk about “the opposite sex”, or even homosexuality and heterosexuality as universals.
Fortunately, the question rarely comes up. Men are men, women are women, usually. So it makes sense to talk about same-sex marriage and the like in that context. But when dealing with Intersex and Transsexuality, it doesn’t.
I’ll give an example:
Odds of a newborn infant being a girl:
If apparently normally male, 1 in 3000
If with male chromosomes, and exposed to DES in the first trimester, 1 in 5
If underdeveloped male, anywhere from 1 in 1000 (if merely hypogonadic) to 1 in 5 (if 46xx, ovarian tissue present etc)
If apparently normal female, 999 in 1000
You may be able to change the odds a little by upbringing: the brain is not completely immaleable, But only a little, and there will almost certainly be deleterious side-effects.
That male/female divide is based on perceived gender identity, which I believe from the evidence is a matter of neurology. Not so much current neurology, for that changes during puberty etc, but an inherent tendency formed during the first trimester, about which we know very little, and whose existence can only be deduced at present. The evidence from DES strongly indicates a hormonal initial cause, but the mechanism of later effect is unclear.
So in my view, there is a touchstone. It isn’t genitalia, or chromosomes, or endocrinology, or soma. It is purely neurological, and results in a self-perception of inate gender. That’s most unsatisfactory from a diagnostic viewpoint, as we only have the subjective patient expressed opinion to go on. They could be lying, out of a wish to live in what to them is perceived as a more desirable gender role. They could be delusional from another condition. They could even be lying to make a political statement, or to hide from pursuit by legal authorities by changing their bodies. They could be attention-seeking. In children, it could even be a problem that will likely self-correct to some extent.
What I would like to see happen….
The first examination of a patient presenting with apparent GID, after the usual tests for Intersex conditions, is an MRI scan. If this shows cross-gendered neurology, the diagnosis is confirmed immediately. If not, further tests would be required, similar to today. The results of patient treatment would then be fed back in to the MRI diagnostic criteria to refine them. In other words, if we find someone who is TS who doesn’t have cross-gendered neurology, we re-define what “cross-gendered neurology” means. Similarly, if we make a mistake, and someone who isn’t TS apparently has “cross-gendered neurology”, we change the definition too.
We then must advise legal authorities about the situation - the medical definition of male and female. Some patients will be unclassifiable as either, so what to do with them? I favour a charitable, humane approach consistent with canon law dating back to the middle ages. They get to choose which legal category, if any, they want, and then are legally considered that sex. If they make a mistake, they have to go through a prolonged evaluation to correct it. That may be one in 100,000, if that, but they deserve consideration too.
Then there’s the problem of someone who looks male, but has a female mind. Fortunately, most of those desperately want to look female anyway. Should they be compelled to have surgery to attain legal recognition, especially when the surgery is risky, expensive, and has a 70% failure rate? Or will a lesser degree of surgery do? BTW that’s not a hypothetical either: MtoFs have it easy, but FtoMs have it tough. Many of the latter only have limited surgery, removal of breasts as a minimum, and usually meto rather than the more risky phallo plasty.
Drowssap,
You might be right. Here is some more interesting stuff from Professor Donald W. Pfaff of Rockefeller University.
I’m not sure what that feminising or masculinising exactly means, whether it’s reproductive behaviour or other gender-typical behaviour, but this scientist is on to something about what causes gender-typical behaviours in all vertebrates, including humans. He is also known for his pioneering work in the study of arousal.
Correction: ‘whether it’s only reproductive behaviour or other gender-typical behaviour too‘.
Given my weird endocrine system, maybe I should contact him.
Or better, get my endo to contact him with the blood test results etc.
Thanks for this.
Gender dysphoria means they believe they are the opposite sex. I’ve only seen one serious case in my life. There is no mistaking it when you see it. It is a serious, mental disorder.
In what sense to they believe they are the opposite sex? Do they insist they have vaginas when they really have penises? Do they insist that they have XX chromosomes when they really have XY? Or do they mean that, for lack of a better term, they feel like the opposite sex “on the inside” i.e. in their thinking processes, socially, emotionally, etc., which external evidence tends to bear out, and since they’re kids and lack sophisticated ways of expressing themselves, “I’m really a girl” is the best they can do to express how they’re feeling?
Insisting that something is a mental disorder just because you want it to be does not make it so. What is your standard for judging them as mentally disordered, other than that they say things you happen to disagree with? Your belief that people with the chromosomes of one sex shouldn’t say they feel like the other sex is your own belief, and is an example of social noncomformity, which, once again, the DSM specifically states is not supposed to be a criteria for mental disorder. So once again I ask, why is GID the only, and apparently arbitrary, exception?
And what possible difference does it make if some sort of intersexed condition is discovered after the fact? Their brains are exactly the same as they were before. As far as anyone knows, I don’t have any kind of IS condition other than the possible hypothetical cross-gendered brain thing, so by your definition I am mentally disordered. But oh wait, we found out recently that my brother inherited some kind of chromosomal abnormality from my dad which is making it very difficult for him to have kids. My mom has decided that this is probably the reason I’m TS, even though we haven’t checked to see if I inherited it, and we don’t even know if it could cause that. But suppose I did and it can, so what? Nothing about my life as it’s been changes. But suddenly my mental disorder no longer exists because we decide that a particular way of existing caused by one condition makes me disordered while the exact same way of existing caused by something else does not? My mental processes are exactly the same either way.
Evan
Dr. Pfaff has recently found that knocking out the gene for the estrogen receptor in animals prevents female reproductive behavior. The deletion results both in masculinizing female animals and, counterintuitively, feminizing males’ behavior.
Evan you are my hero! How do you know about all the good stuff?
Judging from what I’ve read about flies and mice I assume that’s male/female behavior he is refering to. WOW! Scientists seem to know a lot about this stuff. I’m surprised this hasn’t shown up all over the place. The fact that male/female wiring is sitting there in perfect working order in EVERYBODY is the biggest news I’ve heard in a long time, maybe ever. This explains everything. It makes previous theories on transgenderism and homosexuality appear primitive at best. It still doesn’t explain why on opposite sex wire might be kicked on, but at least scientists have a decent idea whats going on.
Boo
If GID isn’t a disorder why do people feel the need to get “corrective” surgery?
Zoe Brain
It is purely neurological, and results in a self-perception of inate gender.
You got that right! That’s exactly it. It’s not the body that determines our sense of gender, it’s our mind.
If GID isn’t a disorder why do people feel the need to get “corrective” surgery?
I can’t speak for everyone else. Me, in no particular order:
1. Cause I found the sexual options for chicks with dicks to be limited and unattractive
2. To get my legal ID changed
3. To lessen the chances of getting beaten up, killed, or otherwise hassled if someone inadvertantly discovered I had something down there they didn’t approve of a la Tyra Hunter
Perhaps you misunderstood my question- I’m asking why GID is considered a mental disorder, especially since in the childhood GID diagnosis the problem is mostly external to the diagnosee.
If GID isn’t a disorder why do people feel the need to get “corrective” surgery?
I am the opposite side of Zoe. I don’t intend to get surgery. I am quite happy being a ‘chick with a dick’. The crowd I run with finds it exotic and erotic. Maybe some day in the future, when I’m older I might change my plumbing, but not anytime soon.
Boo
To lessen the chances of getting beaten up, killed, or otherwise hassled if someone inadvertantly discovered I had something down there
So you got a sex change operation to increase your personal safety in social situations? I didn’t think surgeons would perform sex reassignment for that reason but fair enough.
I’m asking why GID is considered a mental disorder, especially since in the childhood GID diagnosis the problem is mostly external to the diagnosee.
I don’t think I totally understand your question. If you mean why is GID a mental disorder it’s because when a boy thinks he is a girl living in a boy’s body there is a clear missfire going on.
Evan
Once again a line from Dr. Pfaff’s bio page…
This hormone-sensitive system apparently is a general feature of the vertebrate brain, and Dr. Pfaff has recently found that knocking out the gene for the estrogen receptor in animals prevents female reproductive behavior. The deletion results both in masculinizing female animals and, counterintuitively, feminizing males’ behavior.
You realize this explains both gay men and lesbians at the same time?
A M A Z I N G ! ! !
So you got a sex change operation to increase your personal safety in social situations? I didn’t think surgeons would perform sex reassignment for that reason but fair enough.
The “official” diagnosis is very far removed from the actual experiences of most transpeople. According to the DSM, I got surgery because I like to masturbate while I think about knitting. I kid you not, it’s in the DSM.
I don’t think I totally understand your question. If you mean why is GID a mental disorder it’s because when a boy thinks he is a girl living in a boy’s body there is a clear missfire going on.
Who gets to decide that the body is paramount over the brain? And again, think about what you mean when you say “boy thinks he is a girl.” Actually, strike that. In honor of the singular focus of transphobes everywhere, laser-like, solely on MtFs, think about what you would have meant if you’d said “girl thinks she is a boy.” They think they think like the opposite sex because they do think like the opposite sex.
Since you like Brave New World scenarios so much, try this one on:
Tomorrow your brain is transplanted into a female body. You wake up with exactly the same tastes, behaviors, thinking patterns, etc that you have now, but you got yourself a vagina and double Xs. You feel really weird not having Mr. Happy down there, and you find no desire to watch Steel Magnolias, eat chocolate ice cream out of the container, and cry. By your own argument, you are now mentally ill.
Also, the childhood GID diagnosis can be made without that criteria. You need four out of five of:
(1) repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex
(2) in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing
(3) strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make-believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex
(4) intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex
(5) strong preference for playmates of the other sex. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
Note that 2-5 are all examples of social noncomformity, which, to repeat the broken record thing, the DSM says is not supposed to be used as criteria for mental disorder. (Because the distress of social noncomformists is caused entirely by the reactions of other people to them, which is by definition the other person’s problem) The childhood GID criteria contradicts the DSM’s own definition, but no reason is given as to why.
In other words, a girl who likes boy stuff too much, without thinking she’s a boy inside, is still mentally ill. In practice of course, it’s really overwhelmingly about boys who like girl stuff too much, because we need all the weapons in our arsenal for the War On Sissies.
…
Damn that needlepoint over there is hot… oh wait, ignore that!
This hormone-sensitive system apparently is a general feature of the vertebrate brain, and Dr. Pfaff has recently found that knocking out the gene for the estrogen receptor in animals prevents female reproductive behavior. The deletion results both in masculinizing female animals and, counterintuitively, feminizing males’ behavior.
You realize this explains both gay men and lesbians at the same time?
Then why do so many lesbians have babies?
Evan
If we had animal models that explained left/right handedness this good do you think there would be much doubt about the cause of handedness?
This animal stuff explains the whole thing!
Boo
If my male brain was transplanted into a healthy female body I wouldn’t expect to live very long because my nervous system can’t run a female body. But that fact aside, yes I would have a real problem.
Boo, don’t you find it ridiculously interesting that a complete set of male/female wiring is in everybody? That blows me away. I mean, where has this data been all my life?
Boo, don’t you find it ridiculously interesting that a complete set of male/female wiring is in everybody? That blows me away. I mean, where has this data been all my life?
I don’t understand why this would be news to you. You do realize that we all start female, right? If you were to force a lack of testosterone/effect of testosterone on a mammal fetus it will triggure an XY female. That is in fact what happens with CAIS, complete androgen insensitivity. They have a XY karyotype, but are completely immune to testosterone, which means they cannot be masculinity.
Pathia
I don’t understand why this would be news to you. You do realize that we all start female, right?
You don’t find it interesting that adult mice and flies (and apparently other animals) can be turned transgender in an instant? You are tough to impress. Scientists thought it was astounding.
You don’t find it interesting that adult mice and flies (and apparently other animals) can be turned transgender in an instant? You are tough to impress. Scientists thought it was astounding.
No, it does not impress me at all. Of course it’s going to be a switch in them. Comparing our biological systems to mice is fine, but comparing our BRAIN? Hardly. Human brains are so incredibly complex compared to any other non-primate and maybe non-cetacean mammal it’s insane. We have free will, that mucks up everything.
Drowssap,
Assuming other animals would have such behavioural trait, left/right handedness, it would, at least, point to something similar in humans.
But what these news tell us, at best, is that whatever creates gender sense is hormone-linked (Captain Obvious to the rescue!). You bust one gene regulating a hormone, gender sense goes awry. However, one might get the same result with a number of other genes, so it might not be a case of looking for a needle in the haystack as much as looking at a whole haystack of hormone-regulating genes that support one’s gender-typical traits. Just compare male and female abilities to get an idea of what could be related to that: spatial orientation, aggression, motor skills, awareness etc. On the other hand, researchers cannot play with human genes to seek an answer to these questions. And you would need a whole bunch of scientists doing research on brain-related hormonal effects in humans. I don’t see many right now, besides Breedlove.
Pathia,
I could point you to some recent research that throws a shadow of doubt over how much free will we have, but that’s beside the point here. We don’t have much free will in what we feel or one could just wish GID away.
Drowssap & concerned,
Please take some time to watch this 62-minute movie of Professor Pfaff’s presentation on the influence of hormones on sexual behaviour, a general theory of arousal, the preservation of the emotional part of the brain all the way up to humans and many other interesting issues relevant both generally and specifically to this topic and the interest area of this blog. The presentation includes some technical points.
In the final part, he gives an interesting answer to a question about problems related to sexual differentiation, sexual identification and mate choice in humans.
Please take some time to watch this 62-minute movie of Professor Pfaff’s presentation on the influence of hormones on sexual behaviour, a general theory of arousal, the preservation of the emotional part of the brain all the way up to humans and many other interesting issues relevant both generally and specifically to this topic and the interest area of this blog.
I don’t really need a scientist to tell me what I grew up living through. I have been on multiple cocktails of hormones throughout my life, and it has never altered my preferences. It has altered my sex drive, but not what I like to look at.
I was bisexual when I was essentially a eunuch when I was younger (though I dated only men at the time because I was shy). I was bisexual when I was forced testosterone therapy and I am bisexual now after years of estrogen therapy. Nothing has really changed.
Evan
I watched the whole 62 minutes. Absolutely fascinating.
In the last 5 minutes when he answered the question about gender identification I disagreed with him, but then I wondered if I really do. He talked about how large the lesbian pride parade was and he wondered if a lot of that was cultural. I don’t think lesbians are a cultural phenomenon, but maybe the way lesbianism is expressed is cultural. Maybe that’s what he meant, he was trying to be quick.
BTW, on one of the slides he wrote that by increasing a chemical (was it a hystamine?) scientists simultaneously increased sexual behavior and decreased agression. That reminded me of his discovery that reducing estrogen intake in a specific part of the male brain caused feminization. Totally counterintuitive.
Evan
And you would need a whole bunch of scientists doing research on brain-related hormonal effects in humans. I don’t see many right now, besides Breedlove.
I’m beginning to think that this riddle isn’t going to be solved by SSA researchers. Virtually nothing of interest comes from the field. Each year we get another study that shows gay people are more likely to be left handed. Congratulations, now move on please. Maybe this year they’ll discover some weak corelation with a gene. (yawn) I think this is going to be figured out by a scientist like Pfaff working in a related field.
I’m sure you remember the story from a few months ago about the chemical that switched sexual orientation in flies in minutes. That wasn’t from an SSA researcher but you can bet the gay sheep scientists are going to try that out pronto.
I have reason to believe there is some (maybe a lot) of secret research going on in the field of SSA. Maybe these guys are doing more interesting work that’s not fundable or allowed at a university.
BTW, on one of the slides he wrote that by increasing a chemical (was it a hystamine?) scientists simultaneously increased sexual behavior and decreased agression. That reminded me of his discovery that reducing estrogen intake in a specific part of the male brain caused feminization. Totally counterintuitive.
Now that part was the only interesting one for me. When mom was pregnant with me, she had massive allergic reactions and she was given EXTREMELY high doses of anti-histamines through most of her pregnancy, right from the start to the end.
That wouldn’t have altered my chromosomes into their mismash of XX, XY and XXY, but it could have done something to my brain.
Pathia
Human brains are so incredibly complex compared to any other non-primate and maybe non-cetacean mammal it’s insane.
Yes human brains are more complicated. We have an advanced brain to help us solve difficult problems and accomplish amazing tasks. However what outside force would cause humans to evolve a massively different formula for creating a sense of gender? If it’s simple and it works it doesn’t need to change.
A model T has pistons and a Porsche 911 has pistons.
Evan
You are right, transgenderism in humans could be the result of something completely different from what causes it in mice and other animals.
However, Rant Warning!
We now have several animal models that reliably predict and explain transgenderism. On the flip side we have zero human models that tell us much of anything. The problem I have is that the animal models get no respect or EVEN NOTICE from either side of this debate. I’ve never heard Dean Hamer, Narth or anybody inbetween say, “this is how transgenderism works in animals, we think it applies to humans on this level.” It’s complete silence from all parties. It’s as if this research is meaningless. Animal research is respected and important in every field of medicine. Somehow in the field of sexuality and gender identity it’s not even worth a mention. What the heck is going on? (scratching my head)
Drowssap,
You’re right, they don’t study model animals just for the sake of it. They tried to figure out the essentials to work on humans. Now Pfaff says they figured it out in mice and that basically it’s the same thing in all vertebrates, including humans. But it’s curious that they don’t see the commercial potential to do such research on humans, with all precautions taken, of course. If there is a continuum of gender sense and sexual orientation in the human population then some will fall in between self-identified groups. I imagine that must take a toll on their well-being. Gender identity is