A couple of weeks ago, the Parents and Friends of Ex-gays asked the riveting question: Is Grove City College anti-ex-gay?
Now I want to know, Is PFOX anti-ex-gay? Let me explain why inquiring minds want to know.
In apparent answer to the query about GCC, the PFOX blog poster reproduced Peter LaBarbera’s call to action and the One”News”Now article about me. Because I dispute stereotypes about gays and report the research as it is, LaBarbera says I engage in “pro-homosexual activism.” Here is the crux of my crimes:
“But in the last few years, he’s basically become a pro-gay advocate who discredits the idea of change for most homosexuals,” LaBarbera explains. “He grants the idea that they can change, but he says change is very rare.
Well, OK.
Now let’s consider PFOX. On the governing board of PFOX is Chris Doyle who is a “resident psychotherapist” at Richard Cohen’s International Healing Foundation. IHF recently issued an apology to the gay community for “fueling anti-gay sentiment” by stating that “change is possible.”
IHF now refers clients to a host of gay-affirming organizations and resources, including GLSEN and PFOX’s pfavorite organization, PFLAG. The PFLAG reference is especially relevant to the question – “is PFOX anti-ex-gay?” PFOX has accused PFLAG of making hateful statements about former homosexuals. Now that a PFOX board member is a principle figure in an organization that refers people to an organization that makes hateful statements about former homosexuals, then it seems reasonable to ask if PFOX is anti-itself.
I also must wonder if One”News”Now and AFTAH are getting soft on gays. Consider the evidence.
On October 28, 2011, IHF made their apology for “fueling anti-gay sentiment” and posted their references to GLSEN and PFLAG on their website. To date, One”News”Now has ignored the story. And even more puzzling is the absence of an AFTAH-inspired call for PFOX to explain how their board member’s open advocacy of pro-homosexual, anti-ex-gay advocacy fits within their mission.
Almost a month has gone by and this blatant pro-homosexualist initiative at IHF has gone unchecked!
What is wrong with this picture!?
TAKE ACTION! DO NOTHING! CALL NO ONE!
P.S. Sorry, I got a little hyperbolic there at the end.
And that nicely makes the point, Wayne Besen; you do endorse and support every single one of the statements made in the post cited from Truth Wins Out and the post linked to it, which you and your organization state “everything he said is true, and then some”.
StraightGrandmother and Warren Throckmorton now see you with the mask off and what you will and have said about people with whom you disagree.
How do you think that will turn out?
I have replied but I am in moderation purgatory again.
North Dallas:
The fact that you believe you have a smoking gun makes me think you are smoking something. You’ve proven nothing and are still engaged in illogical quips wrapped in non sequiturs.
How do I think it will turn out? Um — just fine. Better for me than for you — because I actually make sense.
Sir, may I strongly suggest you find a local community college and enroll in a debate class before you embarrass yourself any further.
North Dallas Thirty:
It seems that you have found a new place to spew your illogical and irrational garbage. That is why we have permanently banned you from our website.
May I suggest you send your resume to PFOX — they are always looking for serial distorters. You seem to fit the bill.
The case you try to build against me and Truth Wins Out falls flat. I simply feel bad for you. So much hatred. So little sense.
Best of luck. No one is buying what you are selling.
P.S. I totally agree with this statement: “We all know that the writers at GayPatriot are self-loathing, awful people, indeed, embarrassments to LGBT people everywhere. In the past 24 hours, the “Daniel Blatt” one was one of the only wingnuts on the entire internet.”
His record speaks for itself.
Wayne, thank you for stopping over here but you didn’t answer my question. See if I got this right.
There is a guy called Nick, also known as ColoradoGayPatriot or Gay Patriot. He says he is gay but is hard core right wing against anything and everything that would end the Discrimination against people who are gay.
You and a guy named TinTin (TinTin writes a blog called “Sadly No!”) do not like Nick Colorado Patriot.
TinTin wrote an article that is a satire of how TinTin thinks Nick ColoradoPatriot thinks. In other words, what TinTin wrote is not what TinTin believes, it is TinTin’s exaggeration of what Nick ColoradoPatriot believes. Below from the satire article from TinTin
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/30284.html
TinTin’s article also mentions a man named Dan Blatt but let’s ignore him for a while or it gets to confusing.
Let’s call the Above Part A
———————————-
Part B – Evan Hurst on Wayne Beeson TWO organization writes about TinTin’s satire article. TWO is agreeing with the satire, I think I have got it! Evan Hurst of TWO criticizes both Nick ColoradoGayPatriot and Dan Blatt in his article about the TinTin satire. And he makes fun of them, insults them really. I do not agree with when Evan writes this
I do not think anyone should use the gay pejorative F word. Now if you are joking around your house with your friends who are gay that is one thing, but the way this was written here is totally another thing, and a wrong thing.
The rest, about the Sears Catalog and underpants etc. snarky sure, but not like Greg Quinlan of PFOX saying that Wayne Beeson has said someone should inject GQ with AIDS. There is snarky (TWO) and then there is shocking (Greg Quinland).
I do agree with Evans summation though,
The A-Holes meaning Nick Colorado Patriot and Daniel Blatt. I prolly would not have said it that way but I myself have let fly a few choice words over the bullicides of children who are sexual minorities.
When you read what Nick ColoradoGayPatriot wrote about Constance McMillin, the first thing that comes to mind is, I bet GayPatriot isn’t even gay just pretending to be, to stir up trouble. That is the only thing I read from ColoradoGayPatriot and it is enough for me to agree with Evan on that score.
End Part B ———-
Overall I think the TWO article is a little over the top but I have to say I get that way myself sometimes. I was writing to everybody during the Constance McMillin debacle, the Supt of schools, I sent the ACLU incriminating Facebook screenshots that were later removed. I had a lengthy Facebook conversation with a girl who went to the “real” prom.
There are times in our fight for Equality that you get so darned frustrated and shut down and shut out by the right wing Christian majority that you go a little over the top sometimes and I particularly do when it involves young people who are sexual minorities such as Constance McMillin. I don’t think I have been as frustrated as Evan Hurst at TWO, but then again I speak from a position of privilege being a married heterosexual woman. As much empathy as I do have for sexual minorities, still, I don’t walk in their shoes.
In the TWO article I strongly condemn the pejorative F word (in fact I think they should go right now and remove it) the rest is over the top and snarky. I will take snarky over outright lies from the other side though. There is snarky (TWO) and then there are lies (PFOX), they are not the same. I gotta quit now and go look up a study from the Netherlands that GQ refered to in his tv interview.
Stephen, so I got it right (the satire article ans TWO)? Did I get it right?
SG. Yes. It’s satire.
Oh, I see. You are allowed to slander people and state that they are using drugs.
Perhaps we should also put out there how your organization links to, supports, and endorses websites that call Barack Obama the “Negro-in-Chief”, as well as things like this:
Your organization, Truth Wins Out, said of that particular post, Wayne:
Now, the individual in question has a public record as being quite literate — and also, given his prominence online, your organization’s statement that he is not, as well as the other things you printed about him, could cause him serious financial and professional damage and stop him from getting a job.
Will you please provide your proof that your statements made therein are true — that Dan Blatt is in fact illiterate, for starters?
SG,
North Dallas 30 is not reliable. He doesn’t seem to understand basic constructs of rhetoric, e.g., litotes.
I’m reminded of the ongoing nonsense regarding the so-called Gay Agenda. A gay online writer, driven to despair by the ongoing slander coming from the christianist right, wrote a parody of their views of him as if making a confession. He put this in perspective with a first sentence that is now always deleted. The linked-to site in ND30’s post is clearly a satire in the same style. ND30 doesn’t seem to understand it.
Dear Mr. Sam,
I believe you are mistaken if you think Religious Liberty granted to us all in the Constitution trumps all our other individual Constitutional Rights, such as each one of us being treated Equally Under the Law. Religious Liberty does not trump all.
That’s all I’ll say on that since I try to stay on topic here most of the time.
North Dallas 30, you say I should look at it one way and Stephen says I should look at it another way. I am really not sure what to think. It would have been a lot easier if the person writing would have used /sarcasm off at the end. He is what I think I should do. I will go to Wayne Beeson and ask him.
This is one of those situations where I don’t know any of the people involved, TinTin et al.
Clarification needed, does Nick = GayPatriot?
I think it may be the type of situation where you kind of have to be following along for a while to get it. I want to keep an open mind if it was sarcasm or true beliefs and decide after I contact Wayne Beeson.
Dear Wayne Besen,
May I suggest that you immigrate to Sweden, where you can join the organization called RFSL, a gay rights organization, one of whose goals is to protect the feelings of practicing homosexuals from Christianity and Christian people. Btw, this organization is govenment sponsored, and you seem like the right type for it. Thankful to God, America is not like that at all. We still elevate religious liberty over the feelings of those who don’t like it, including people like you. Whatever it is you’re trying to do, will not be accomplished in America.
Dave, I looked at the P.A.T.H. (Positive Alternatives To Homosexuality) Document called Change Is Possible. It would be nice if the doc had a title such as maybe “Mission Statement” Or “Core Values and Beliefs”
http://www.pathinfo.org/index2.htm
PFOX states that the PATH Change Is Possible doc is, “PFOX’s statement of principles”
But then back on PFOX’s website they add even more of their beliefs to the PATH doc
If I believed that most people can change their sexual orientation if they tried hard enough then I guess I would not have a problem with any of the statements in the Change Is Possible doc or PFOX’s About Us page.
I forget who said it on another topic, I think it was perhaps Michael Bussee, that if all these organizations did was minister or support people who have unwanted same sex attractions I wouldn’t have a problem with them. But they don’t do that. They take the Change Is Possible Mantra into the Public Square to deny Civil Rights to sexual minorities who do not want to change, sexual minorities who are happy with the way they are.
Here is what PFOX says,
All people should be treated with dignity. We respect the opinions of others, even if they disagree with us
IMO I don’t think denying a couple of the same sex the Constitutional Right to Civil Marriage is treating people with dignity. And this is exactly what PFOX and the other members of PATH do.
StraightGrandmother:
The husband in question is, of course, Alan Chambers, the current president of Exodus International. It was Chambers who, during the week before the “Love Won Out” conference in February 2007, told the Los Angeles Times that he wasn’t sure that he’d ever met an “ex-gay” who ceased to “struggle” with same-sex attractions – and he made it clear at the conference that he included himself in that statement. He has said that he used to get angry with people who said that he was “in denial” but that he now agrees that they are more or less right. He said “I live a life of denial” and “I choose to deny what comes naturally to me,” and that he has to pray to God every morning when he gets up to keep him in this state of denial.
So what is Chambers’s reply to those who accuse him and his organization of deceiving people with their advert stating that “Change is Possible”? Very simple: “The opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality; it’s holiness.”
@ SG .. FYI: that couple in the ads is none other than Alan Chambers (head of Exodus) and his wife.
Dave
SGM –
Yes, it’s true-ish. Transsexuality was put into the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistics Manual) at the same time that Homosexuality was taken out. Before then, it wasn’t pathologised. There appears to have been an element of quid-pro-quo there.
Currently, there’s a number of diagnostic codes, corresponding to a minority of those categorised as “Transgender”. I’ll address the (US-only) DSM-IV-TR, but the WHO’s ICD-10 diagnostics manual differs only in detail.
In context, here they are:
302.2 Pedophilia
302.3 Transvestic Fetishism
302.4 Exhibitionism
302.6 Gender Identity Disorder in Children
302.6 Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (NOS)
302.70 Sexual Dysfunction NOS
302.71 Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder
302.72 Female Sexual Arousal Disorder
302.72 Male Erectile Disorder
302.73 Female Orgasmic Disorder
302.74 Male Orgasmic Disorder
302.75 Premature Ejaculation
302.76 Dyspareunia (Not Due to a General Medical Condition)
302.79 Sexual Aversion Disorder
302.81 Fetishism
302.82 Voyeurism
302.83 Sexual Masochism
302.84 Sexual Sadism
302.85 Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults
302.89 Frotteurism
The ones in bold indicate subgroups of those classed as “Transgender”.
302.3 Covers men (only) who dress in the opposite sex’s clothes for a sexual thrill. It excludes women who may do the same.
302.6 Covers children, Intersex people who were surgically assigned an arbitrary sex and are unhappy at having been castrated, and those who would otherwise be classed as Transsexual (302.85) except for being Intersex.
302.85 Covers classic Transsexuals “men born with female bodies” or the reverse. The cross-sexed neuro-anatomy they all have is not deemed an Intersex condition. A significant proportion, about 10%, of such diagnoses are found to be erroneous if they have sex reassignment, as it’s found they have Intersex conditions too (so should have been classed as 302.6).
Most “Transgender” people don’t fit in any of those categories.
It was recognised at the 2009 American Psychiatric Association conference that those diagnosed under 302.6 and 302.85 were not “mentally ill” – they didn’t fit the criteria – yet they required medical treatment, so they have been kept in the revised DSM-5. Moved to another section though, as classifying 5 year old children as “sexually disordered” alongside pedophiles, sexual sadists etc didn’t make anyone feel comfortable.
From Psychiatric News February 20, 2009 Volume 44, Number 4, page 13:
The symposium:
S6. “In or Out?”: A Discussion About Gender Identity Diagnoses and the DSM (DSM Track DM03)
1. The DSM-V Revision Process: Principles and Progress William E. Narrow, M.D.
2. Beyond Conundrum: Strategies for Diagnostic Harm Reduction Kelley Winters, Ph.D.
3. Aligning Bodies With Minds: The Case for Medical and Surgical Treatment of Gender Dysphoria Rebecca Allison, M.D.
4. The Role of Medical and Psychological Discourse in Legal and Policy Advocacy for Transgender Persons in the U.S. Shannon P. Minter, J.D.
Overall, the classification of a biological problem as a psychiatric one does more harm than good – it’s used to deny Trans people human rights, for one thing, in courts and legislatures. For another, most Insurance companies don’t recognise it as a medical problem at all, and exclude coverage for it and anything related to it. It’s deemed a “lifestyle choice”. The disadvantages are very real, the benefits largely illusory.
I could answer in far more detail, but I’ve already hijacked one thread. It really needs its own.
Well yes that was one of my main points to you.. FYI .. for a look at some of those ads see here. You get to see the change is possible mantra and the typical far right hate crime law (false) statements all together.
Most “recovery” organizations don’t go on an ad campaign against the people they are trying to “help” For example .. AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) is never going to team up with MADD .. In fact AA’s brochure specifically states that they do not align with any political party or political action or church.. becasue their main purpose is to help alcoholics. So ..this is a major red flag for me when I see these organizations going political.
(Note: I am not in any way comparing same sex attractions to alcoholic issues .. I am simply making a comparison between what real help / recovery organizations do and what alleged help/recovery organizatilons do).
Dae
Ya know. Like Jiminy Cricket.
But on acid.
Well Ken .. while I assume your question was rhetorical .. my response is that up until a few years ago I couldn’t concieve of fellow Christians publically lying to me and others .. now .. I have almost come to expect it .. though I admit .. it still does surprise me on occassion.
Dave
SG. Yes. It’s satire.
Stephen, so I got it right (the satire article ans TWO)? Did I get it right?
Dear Mr. Sam,
I believe you are mistaken if you think Religious Liberty granted to us all in the Constitution trumps all our other individual Constitutional Rights, such as each one of us being treated Equally Under the Law. Religious Liberty does not trump all.
That’s all I’ll say on that since I try to stay on topic here most of the time.
SG,
North Dallas 30 is not reliable. He doesn’t seem to understand basic constructs of rhetoric, e.g., litotes.
I’m reminded of the ongoing nonsense regarding the so-called Gay Agenda. A gay online writer, driven to despair by the ongoing slander coming from the christianist right, wrote a parody of their views of him as if making a confession. He put this in perspective with a first sentence that is now always deleted. The linked-to site in ND30’s post is clearly a satire in the same style. ND30 doesn’t seem to understand it.
Dear Wayne Besen,
May I suggest that you immigrate to Sweden, where you can join the organization called RFSL, a gay rights organization, one of whose goals is to protect the feelings of practicing homosexuals from Christianity and Christian people. Btw, this organization is govenment sponsored, and you seem like the right type for it. Thankful to God, America is not like that at all. We still elevate religious liberty over the feelings of those who don’t like it, including people like you. Whatever it is you’re trying to do, will not be accomplished in America.
I have replied but I am in moderation purgatory again.
Wayne, thank you for stopping over here but you didn’t answer my question. See if I got this right.
There is a guy called Nick, also known as ColoradoGayPatriot or Gay Patriot. He says he is gay but is hard core right wing against anything and everything that would end the Discrimination against people who are gay.
You and a guy named TinTin (TinTin writes a blog called “Sadly No!”) do not like Nick Colorado Patriot.
TinTin wrote an article that is a satire of how TinTin thinks Nick ColoradoPatriot thinks. In other words, what TinTin wrote is not what TinTin believes, it is TinTin’s exaggeration of what Nick ColoradoPatriot believes. Below from the satire article from TinTin
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/30284.html
TinTin’s article also mentions a man named Dan Blatt but let’s ignore him for a while or it gets to confusing.
Let’s call the Above Part A
———————————-
Part B – Evan Hurst on Wayne Beeson TWO organization writes about TinTin’s satire article. TWO is agreeing with the satire, I think I have got it! Evan Hurst of TWO criticizes both Nick ColoradoGayPatriot and Dan Blatt in his article about the TinTin satire. And he makes fun of them, insults them really. I do not agree with when Evan writes this
I do not think anyone should use the gay pejorative F word. Now if you are joking around your house with your friends who are gay that is one thing, but the way this was written here is totally another thing, and a wrong thing.
The rest, about the Sears Catalog and underpants etc. snarky sure, but not like Greg Quinlan of PFOX saying that Wayne Beeson has said someone should inject GQ with AIDS. There is snarky (TWO) and then there is shocking (Greg Quinland).
I do agree with Evans summation though,
The A-Holes meaning Nick Colorado Patriot and Daniel Blatt. I prolly would not have said it that way but I myself have let fly a few choice words over the bullicides of children who are sexual minorities.
When you read what Nick ColoradoGayPatriot wrote about Constance McMillin, the first thing that comes to mind is, I bet GayPatriot isn’t even gay just pretending to be, to stir up trouble. That is the only thing I read from ColoradoGayPatriot and it is enough for me to agree with Evan on that score.
End Part B ———-
Overall I think the TWO article is a little over the top but I have to say I get that way myself sometimes. I was writing to everybody during the Constance McMillin debacle, the Supt of schools, I sent the ACLU incriminating Facebook screenshots that were later removed. I had a lengthy Facebook conversation with a girl who went to the “real” prom.
There are times in our fight for Equality that you get so darned frustrated and shut down and shut out by the right wing Christian majority that you go a little over the top sometimes and I particularly do when it involves young people who are sexual minorities such as Constance McMillin. I don’t think I have been as frustrated as Evan Hurst at TWO, but then again I speak from a position of privilege being a married heterosexual woman. As much empathy as I do have for sexual minorities, still, I don’t walk in their shoes.
In the TWO article I strongly condemn the pejorative F word (in fact I think they should go right now and remove it) the rest is over the top and snarky. I will take snarky over outright lies from the other side though. There is snarky (TWO) and then there are lies (PFOX), they are not the same. I gotta quit now and go look up a study from the Netherlands that GQ refered to in his tv interview.
Oh, I see. You are allowed to slander people and state that they are using drugs.
Perhaps we should also put out there how your organization links to, supports, and endorses websites that call Barack Obama the “Negro-in-Chief”, as well as things like this:
Your organization, Truth Wins Out, said of that particular post, Wayne:
Now, the individual in question has a public record as being quite literate — and also, given his prominence online, your organization’s statement that he is not, as well as the other things you printed about him, could cause him serious financial and professional damage and stop him from getting a job.
Will you please provide your proof that your statements made therein are true — that Dan Blatt is in fact illiterate, for starters?
North Dallas:
The fact that you believe you have a smoking gun makes me think you are smoking something. You’ve proven nothing and are still engaged in illogical quips wrapped in non sequiturs.
How do I think it will turn out? Um — just fine. Better for me than for you — because I actually make sense.
Sir, may I strongly suggest you find a local community college and enroll in a debate class before you embarrass yourself any further.
And that nicely makes the point, Wayne Besen; you do endorse and support every single one of the statements made in the post cited from Truth Wins Out and the post linked to it, which you and your organization state “everything he said is true, and then some”.
StraightGrandmother and Warren Throckmorton now see you with the mask off and what you will and have said about people with whom you disagree.
How do you think that will turn out?
P.S. I totally agree with this statement: “We all know that the writers at GayPatriot are self-loathing, awful people, indeed, embarrassments to LGBT people everywhere. In the past 24 hours, the “Daniel Blatt” one was one of the only wingnuts on the entire internet.”
His record speaks for itself.
North Dallas Thirty:
It seems that you have found a new place to spew your illogical and irrational garbage. That is why we have permanently banned you from our website.
May I suggest you send your resume to PFOX — they are always looking for serial distorters. You seem to fit the bill.
The case you try to build against me and Truth Wins Out falls flat. I simply feel bad for you. So much hatred. So little sense.
Best of luck. No one is buying what you are selling.
North Dallas 30, you say I should look at it one way and Stephen says I should look at it another way. I am really not sure what to think. It would have been a lot easier if the person writing would have used /sarcasm off at the end. He is what I think I should do. I will go to Wayne Beeson and ask him.
This is one of those situations where I don’t know any of the people involved, TinTin et al.
Clarification needed, does Nick = GayPatriot?
I think it may be the type of situation where you kind of have to be following along for a while to get it. I want to keep an open mind if it was sarcasm or true beliefs and decide after I contact Wayne Beeson.
Actually, Stephen, perhaps you need to reread the quote:
First, note “dispensed with all silliness” — which means that it wasn’t satire.
Second, note “everything he said is true, and then some” — which means, again, that Besen and Truth Wins Out are stating that EVERYTHING said in that post is true.
Meanwhile, Straight Grandmother, please for the record state that you agree with and consider these statements by Wayne Besen’s Truth Wins Out organization appropriate and truthful.
SG
Of course he doesn’t. The first piece is a satire of GayPatriot’s views. The very vehemence of the piece is intended to display the ridiculousness of such views.
The first link is to a piece that satirizes the attitudes of the so-called GayPatriot (negro-in-chief, etc). The writer allows himself the luxury of expressing his contempt for Daniel Blatt.
The Wayne Besen piece expresses Mr Besen’s outrage over the Colorado GayPatriot’s loathsome reaction to the Constance McMillin controversy. Self-loathing among gay men is distressingly common. It’s by no means far-fetched to impute extreme right-wing views to such loathing.
In neither piece does anyone call for anyone’s death or accuse anyone of wishing them dead. The two sides do not engage in the same language. Wayne Besen is a nationally known advocate who, while I don’t always agree with him, often has interesting things to say. Nick and Dan are incendiarists who have seized on what they reckon to be a clever strategy to provoke attention and perhaps a book deal with Regnery: write from the p.o.v. of a gay man while attacking the lives and rights of other gay men
North Dallas 30, I am tired and need to take a nap. I will come back and review everything again when I am freshly rested, but if it is true that Wayne Beeson supports calling our President, “Negro-In-Chief” I have to reject and strongly condemn that. Are you sure you are reading that right? That would make a difference (negative) in my opinion of Mr. Beeson and Truth Wins Out.
No worries, StraightGrandmother.
If you click on the hyperlink in the Truth Wins Out post where it says “memorable, spot-on smackdowns”, you will be taken to the first link.
That is the story to which Wayne Besen and Truth Wins Out are referring to when they state, quote, “everything he said is true, and then some”.
In short, Wayne Besen and Truth Wins Out, not only support and endorse that to which you just referred as “gross”, but are actually promoting it, linking it, praising it, and stating that it is true.
NorthDallas30- Like always I dutifully followed the links you provided. Oh My Land! The first link you provided, how gross, and that is a huge understatement. Here from the link
I have to admit I read just a little further and then I quit. I can’t even tell by the comments if the person writing is Pro-gay or Anti-gay as I couldn’t get past the extreemly racist “Negro-In-Chief “verbiage.
Then I went to the second link which is to Truth Wins Out and Wayne Beeson commenting on Constance McMillin and ripping on a person called Nick. Who Nick is I dunno. You will have to break it down for me DallasNorth30 how are the two links you provided connected? I read Wayne Beeson sticking up for Constance McMillian and condemning Nick and or ColoradoGayPatriot I don’t see anything in Wayne Beesons comments that I disagree with. What am I missing? You will need to connect the dots for me as I am not seeing any objection myself.
I wonder, StraightGrandmother, if you will pause when you see the sort of “inflammatory and derogatory” things that Wayne Besen and his Truth Wins Out organization say about the the other side.
By the way, StraightGrandmother, the target of Besen’s hatred in that post is Jewish; the picture was of him holding his newborn nephew. Thus, the post is not only hateful in its words, making several false statements about its target, but it’s also an ethnic, religious, and racial slur, all endorsed and supported by Besen’s Truth Wins Out organization, which says, quote, “suffice it to say that everything he said is true, and then some”.
SG
Of course he doesn’t. The first piece is a satire of GayPatriot’s views. The very vehemence of the piece is intended to display the ridiculousness of such views.
The first link is to a piece that satirizes the attitudes of the so-called GayPatriot (negro-in-chief, etc). The writer allows himself the luxury of expressing his contempt for Daniel Blatt.
The Wayne Besen piece expresses Mr Besen’s outrage over the Colorado GayPatriot’s loathsome reaction to the Constance McMillin controversy. Self-loathing among gay men is distressingly common. It’s by no means far-fetched to impute extreme right-wing views to such loathing.
In neither piece does anyone call for anyone’s death or accuse anyone of wishing them dead. The two sides do not engage in the same language. Wayne Besen is a nationally known advocate who, while I don’t always agree with him, often has interesting things to say. Nick and Dan are incendiarists who have seized on what they reckon to be a clever strategy to provoke attention and perhaps a book deal with Regnery: write from the p.o.v. of a gay man while attacking the lives and rights of other gay men
North Dallas 30, I am tired and need to take a nap. I will come back and review everything again when I am freshly rested, but if it is true that Wayne Beeson supports calling our President, “Negro-In-Chief” I have to reject and strongly condemn that. Are you sure you are reading that right? That would make a difference (negative) in my opinion of Mr. Beeson and Truth Wins Out.
No worries, StraightGrandmother.
If you click on the hyperlink in the Truth Wins Out post where it says “memorable, spot-on smackdowns”, you will be taken to the first link.
That is the story to which Wayne Besen and Truth Wins Out are referring to when they state, quote, “everything he said is true, and then some”.
In short, Wayne Besen and Truth Wins Out, not only support and endorse that to which you just referred as “gross”, but are actually promoting it, linking it, praising it, and stating that it is true.
NorthDallas30- Like always I dutifully followed the links you provided. Oh My Land! The first link you provided, how gross, and that is a huge understatement. Here from the link
I have to admit I read just a little further and then I quit. I can’t even tell by the comments if the person writing is Pro-gay or Anti-gay as I couldn’t get past the extreemly racist “Negro-In-Chief “verbiage.
Then I went to the second link which is to Truth Wins Out and Wayne Beeson commenting on Constance McMillin and ripping on a person called Nick. Who Nick is I dunno. You will have to break it down for me DallasNorth30 how are the two links you provided connected? I read Wayne Beeson sticking up for Constance McMillian and condemning Nick and or ColoradoGayPatriot I don’t see anything in Wayne Beesons comments that I disagree with. What am I missing? You will need to connect the dots for me as I am not seeing any objection myself.
I wonder, StraightGrandmother, if you will pause when you see the sort of “inflammatory and derogatory” things that Wayne Besen and his Truth Wins Out organization say about the the other side.
By the way, StraightGrandmother, the target of Besen’s hatred in that post is Jewish; the picture was of him holding his newborn nephew. Thus, the post is not only hateful in its words, making several false statements about its target, but it’s also an ethnic, religious, and racial slur, all endorsed and supported by Besen’s Truth Wins Out organization, which says, quote, “suffice it to say that everything he said is true, and then some”.
Boo yours is a timely comment . Really makes you question the PFOX organization when the Leader of PFOX would say such inflammatory and derogatory things about the other side. And flat out lies. It makes me pause.
OTOH, PFOX may not exist much longer if Wayne Besen follows through on his threat to sue them:
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2011/11/20378/
Boo yours is a timely comment . Really makes you question the PFOX organization when the Leader of PFOX would say such inflammatory and derogatory things about the other side. And flat out lies. It makes me pause.
OTOH, PFOX may not exist much longer if Wayne Besen follows through on his threat to sue them:
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2011/11/20378/
This ‘make-sure-you-use-right-label’ stuff is, quite simply, a load of …
How many people actually take it seriously, do you reckon?
This ‘make-sure-you-use-right-label’ stuff is, quite simply, a load of …
How many people actually take it seriously, do you reckon?
This is right in line with the thinking of Frank Worthen, one of Exodus’ founders. Celibacy was not enough. You had to use a different label to describe your orientation. And it’s not just that using the term “gay” isn’t “God’s best”. Your salvation is in jeopardy if you do.
When I left Exodus, Frank wrote me a very angry and condemning letter to say I was surely going to hell for even calling myself a “gay Christian”. He insisted that Grace was not enough. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not enough. You had to use the right words.
Frank told me that even calling myself “gay” or “homosexual” was just as “evil” as acting on homosexual desires. Using either of those labels would land you in Hell. He based it on this passage from the Bible:
It was (and is) all part of that “word faith” theology where you “claim” your “healling” by speaking it. Words have “saving” or “condemning” power. That’s one of the reasons Exodus uses terms like “Christians with SSA”, “ex-gay”, “former homosexual” and “post-gay”. If you don’t use the rights words, you’re toast.
.
Trigger Warning: Snarky Comment.
This stuff is the gift that keeps on giving.
I’m old enough to not be amazed by many things; but, this quotation has left me with a somewhat para-normal experience. Gosh, St. Alan Chambers, has come down from the mountain … to inform those of us pitiful deviants just exactly what we must think, do, and say to be somewhat acceptable to His Holiness. Benedict, watch out.
Somehow, “holier than thou” keeps ringing in my ears.
This is right in line with the thinking of Frank Worthen, one of Exodus’ founders. Celibacy was not enough. You had to use a different label to describe your orientation. And it’s not just that using the term “gay” isn’t “God’s best”. Your salvation is in jeopardy if you do.
When I left Exodus, Frank wrote me a very angry and condemning letter to say I was surely going to hell for even calling myself a “gay Christian”. He insisted that Grace was not enough. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not enough. You had to use the right words.
Frank told me that even calling myself “gay” or “homosexual” was just as “evil” as acting on homosexual desires. Using either of those labels would land you in Hell. He based it on this passage from the Bible:
It was (and is) all part of that “word faith” theology where you “claim” your “healling” by speaking it. Words have “saving” or “condemning” power. That’s one of the reasons Exodus uses terms like “Christians with SSA”, “ex-gay”, “former homosexual” and “post-gay”. If you don’t use the rights words, you’re toast.
.
Trigger Warning: Snarky Comment.
This stuff is the gift that keeps on giving.
I’m old enough to not be amazed by many things; but, this quotation has left me with a somewhat para-normal experience. Gosh, St. Alan Chambers, has come down from the mountain … to inform those of us pitiful deviants just exactly what we must think, do, and say to be somewhat acceptable to His Holiness. Benedict, watch out.
Somehow, “holier than thou” keeps ringing in my ears.
Chambers’ apparent line on ‘choosing celibacy’ is indeed daft: surely it is much better for someone to choose celibacy if they feel that they could not meet the reasonable expectations of a prospective spouse/partner.
The alignment of ‘heterosexual’ with ‘holy’ is one of the worst pieces of philosophical and theological nonsense peddled by ‘ex-gay’ bunch.
(I also take the view that some are called to be celibate – regardless of their sexuality.)
Dave, I did go to that March 2011 letter from Alan Chambers you linked to. That was really eye opening. This Chambers guy is hard core, this is what struck me the most
Today many Christians with SSA are choosing celibacy, but they are also choosing to keep the gay identity/label. This falls short of God’s best because identity matters. How we view and refer to ourselves is very important. Twenty years ago when I began my journey to holiness
I have to agree with Teresa I too find “my journey to holiness” offensive. Very offensive. I guess heterosexuals are just born Holy? My how lucky for them. I was taught that God is the only person who is Holy. It seems to me that Chambers is comparing himself to God by consistently referring to sexual minorities as becoming “Holy.” I will leave it to our more learned theologians here to finish off that discussion.
http://exodusinternational.org/2011/03/identity-matters-letter-from-alan-chambers-for-march-2011/#
Chambers’ apparent line on ‘choosing celibacy’ is indeed daft: surely it is much better for someone to choose celibacy if they feel that they could not meet the reasonable expectations of a prospective spouse/partner.
The alignment of ‘heterosexual’ with ‘holy’ is one of the worst pieces of philosophical and theological nonsense peddled by ‘ex-gay’ bunch.
(I also take the view that some are called to be celibate – regardless of their sexuality.)
The answer to your question is yes. More importantly, reacting to Mr. LaBarbera only serves to feed his personality disorder. Seriously.
Dave, I did go to that March 2011 letter from Alan Chambers you linked to. That was really eye opening. This Chambers guy is hard core, this is what struck me the most
Today many Christians with SSA are choosing celibacy, but they are also choosing to keep the gay identity/label. This falls short of God’s best because identity matters. How we view and refer to ourselves is very important. Twenty years ago when I began my journey to holiness
I have to agree with Teresa I too find “my journey to holiness” offensive. Very offensive. I guess heterosexuals are just born Holy? My how lucky for them. I was taught that God is the only person who is Holy. It seems to me that Chambers is comparing himself to God by consistently referring to sexual minorities as becoming “Holy.” I will leave it to our more learned theologians here to finish off that discussion.
http://exodusinternational.org/2011/03/identity-matters-letter-from-alan-chambers-for-march-2011/#
Richard, I know several gay men who are honest with the wives about their sexual orientation and the foundation of their relationships is indeed “genuine mutual understanding and respect.” It can’t be easy for them. I suppose no relationship is.
SG, there’s much I don’t like about Exodus, Courage, et. al. The one quote that really irritates me is
My question is … what is the opposite of heterosexuality? I’ve never, ever heard something that strange about str8 persons.
Without wanting to think the worst of people, it seems to me, it matters not what a same-sex attracted person does to these folks. They just can’t seem to wrap their heads around the fact some persons, different than they are, can have some very incredible lives … and, with some of us, not about to be taken to some ‘spiritual’ woodshed, to hide our heads in shame and guilt.
Well, I think one has to respect Chambers for his candour.
As an ‘ideological liberal’, I do take the view that human relationships can have a wide variety of ‘patterns’ and be no less valid because of that, as long the foundation of the relationship is genuine mutual understanding and respect … perhaps the two most important the practical, day-to-day expressions of ‘love’.
Michael, didn’t Alan Chambers admit that their marriage was not consummated until 9 months later?
Regarding their relationship, the Chambers seem happy. I wish them well as they continue to make their mixed orientation marriage work. Sadly, most of these pairings don’t.
In her piece for the Oprah Winfrey Network. Lisa Ling asked Alan Chambers if he had changed his sexual orientation. His answer: “I don’t know.”
She also asked what his wedding night was like: His response: “It wasn’t wierd.” Interesting (and sad) that he couldn’t say, “It was wonderful”.
@ SG it was written in 2006 … But note this: You might want to check this link from this year in which he essentially says the same thing.
Dave
The answer to your question is yes. More importantly, reacting to Mr. LaBarbera only serves to feed his personality disorder. Seriously.
William, if Alan Chambers really believes
Then how about some truth in advertizing. They should have a picture of him with a little halo over his head then instead of a picture of him and his wife, right?
Dave when was the book God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door written? That is important information I wasn’t aware of. Teresa isn’t going to like that paragraph.
William said …
Yes .. and what exactly does that mean?? .. It sounds like he believes that gay people (homosexuals) cannot be holy.
Just to bring further ‘clarity’ to what Alan Chambers says .. this is a quote from his book God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door (pages 217-218)
So .. contrary to what you seem to be implying .. Alan is very unclear in this area and just as convoluted as PFOX. Even abstaining from sex is insufficient per his beliefs. Aparrently if you don’t believe exactly what he does you are sinning.
Dave
That pic is Alan Chambers? eye-roll. I can’t imagine why his wife allows him to use her picture in his business. If they are ever parted from each other through death or divorce I would love to read her candid “My Story.”
I guess there are all kinds of people in this world and I shouldn’t generalize but I do wonder how any married woman feels when her husband makes a living saying in public basically, “My wife is not sexually fulfilling for me, first thing every morning I have to ask for God’s help to make it through another day.” Isn’t this Stand by Your Man taken to the extreme? I would be humiliated, yet there she is, her picture is in their advertizing.
Ya know. Like Jiminy Cricket.
But on acid.
StraightGrandmother:
The husband in question is, of course, Alan Chambers, the current president of Exodus International. It was Chambers who, during the week before the “Love Won Out” conference in February 2007, told the Los Angeles Times that he wasn’t sure that he’d ever met an “ex-gay” who ceased to “struggle” with same-sex attractions – and he made it clear at the conference that he included himself in that statement. He has said that he used to get angry with people who said that he was “in denial” but that he now agrees that they are more or less right. He said “I live a life of denial” and “I choose to deny what comes naturally to me,” and that he has to pray to God every morning when he gets up to keep him in this state of denial.
So what is Chambers’s reply to those who accuse him and his organization of deceiving people with their advert stating that “Change is Possible”? Very simple: “The opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality; it’s holiness.”
@ SG .. FYI: that couple in the ads is none other than Alan Chambers (head of Exodus) and his wife.
Dave
Richard, I know several gay men who are honest with the wives about their sexual orientation and the foundation of their relationships is indeed “genuine mutual understanding and respect.” It can’t be easy for them. I suppose no relationship is.
SG, there’s much I don’t like about Exodus, Courage, et. al. The one quote that really irritates me is
My question is … what is the opposite of heterosexuality? I’ve never, ever heard something that strange about str8 persons.
Without wanting to think the worst of people, it seems to me, it matters not what a same-sex attracted person does to these folks. They just can’t seem to wrap their heads around the fact some persons, different than they are, can have some very incredible lives … and, with some of us, not about to be taken to some ‘spiritual’ woodshed, to hide our heads in shame and guilt.
Well, I think one has to respect Chambers for his candour.
As an ‘ideological liberal’, I do take the view that human relationships can have a wide variety of ‘patterns’ and be no less valid because of that, as long the foundation of the relationship is genuine mutual understanding and respect … perhaps the two most important the practical, day-to-day expressions of ‘love’.
Michael, didn’t Alan Chambers admit that their marriage was not consummated until 9 months later?
@Dave Well I must say those ads are really eye openers for me. I have never seen them before. The ad that bothered me the most is the one towards the bottom, the one with the man obviously a husband with his arm around the woman, portrayed in the pic as his spouse. I wouldn’t mind the ad if what they are projecting is true, but I still think of the guy, what is his name (?) the guy from that Exodus’s in patient offspring group out of Atlanta, who came out and said in all his 20 years he never saw anyone change their sexual orientation. You know the one he has that grace river blog. Isn’t it Michael Smid or John Smid? Something like that. This is an inside guy saying it doesn’t work, Pray Away The Gay, that doesn’t work.
So basically you have these P.A.T.H Pray Away The Gay groups that are promoting and advertizing that sexual orientation “change” is possible [Look at their advertising pics] when really it isn’t except for a rare outlier or two, and we should deny Constitutional Civil Rights to 99.99% of sexual minorities because of a few rare outliers. And even them, the rare outliers I am not 100% sold on, as we know that people will report falsely about their orientation change because of their fealty to their religion.
Regarding their relationship, the Chambers seem happy. I wish them well as they continue to make their mixed orientation marriage work. Sadly, most of these pairings don’t.
In her piece for the Oprah Winfrey Network. Lisa Ling asked Alan Chambers if he had changed his sexual orientation. His answer: “I don’t know.”
She also asked what his wedding night was like: His response: “It wasn’t wierd.” Interesting (and sad) that he couldn’t say, “It was wonderful”.
@ SG it was written in 2006 … But note this: You might want to check this link from this year in which he essentially says the same thing.
Dave
William, if Alan Chambers really believes
Then how about some truth in advertizing. They should have a picture of him with a little halo over his head then instead of a picture of him and his wife, right?
Dave when was the book God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door written? That is important information I wasn’t aware of. Teresa isn’t going to like that paragraph.
William said …
Yes .. and what exactly does that mean?? .. It sounds like he believes that gay people (homosexuals) cannot be holy.
Just to bring further ‘clarity’ to what Alan Chambers says .. this is a quote from his book God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door (pages 217-218)
So .. contrary to what you seem to be implying .. Alan is very unclear in this area and just as convoluted as PFOX. Even abstaining from sex is insufficient per his beliefs. Aparrently if you don’t believe exactly what he does you are sinning.
Dave
That pic is Alan Chambers? eye-roll. I can’t imagine why his wife allows him to use her picture in his business. If they are ever parted from each other through death or divorce I would love to read her candid “My Story.”
I guess there are all kinds of people in this world and I shouldn’t generalize but I do wonder how any married woman feels when her husband makes a living saying in public basically, “My wife is not sexually fulfilling for me, first thing every morning I have to ask for God’s help to make it through another day.” Isn’t this Stand by Your Man taken to the extreme? I would be humiliated, yet there she is, her picture is in their advertizing.
Well yes that was one of my main points to you.. FYI .. for a look at some of those ads see here. You get to see the change is possible mantra and the typical far right hate crime law (false) statements all together.
Most “recovery” organizations don’t go on an ad campaign against the people they are trying to “help” For example .. AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) is never going to team up with MADD .. In fact AA’s brochure specifically states that they do not align with any political party or political action or church.. becasue their main purpose is to help alcoholics. So ..this is a major red flag for me when I see these organizations going political.
(Note: I am not in any way comparing same sex attractions to alcoholic issues .. I am simply making a comparison between what real help / recovery organizations do and what alleged help/recovery organizatilons do).
Dae
@Dave Well I must say those ads are really eye openers for me. I have never seen them before. The ad that bothered me the most is the one towards the bottom, the one with the man obviously a husband with his arm around the woman, portrayed in the pic as his spouse. I wouldn’t mind the ad if what they are projecting is true, but I still think of the guy, what is his name (?) the guy from that Exodus’s in patient offspring group out of Atlanta, who came out and said in all his 20 years he never saw anyone change their sexual orientation. You know the one he has that grace river blog. Isn’t it Michael Smid or John Smid? Something like that. This is an inside guy saying it doesn’t work, Pray Away The Gay, that doesn’t work.
So basically you have these P.A.T.H Pray Away The Gay groups that are promoting and advertizing that sexual orientation “change” is possible [Look at their advertising pics] when really it isn’t except for a rare outlier or two, and we should deny Constitutional Civil Rights to 99.99% of sexual minorities because of a few rare outliers. And even them, the rare outliers I am not 100% sold on, as we know that people will report falsely about their orientation change because of their fealty to their religion.
Dave, I looked at the P.A.T.H. (Positive Alternatives To Homosexuality) Document called Change Is Possible. It would be nice if the doc had a title such as maybe “Mission Statement” Or “Core Values and Beliefs”
http://www.pathinfo.org/index2.htm
PFOX states that the PATH Change Is Possible doc is, “PFOX’s statement of principles”
But then back on PFOX’s website they add even more of their beliefs to the PATH doc
If I believed that most people can change their sexual orientation if they tried hard enough then I guess I would not have a problem with any of the statements in the Change Is Possible doc or PFOX’s About Us page.
I forget who said it on another topic, I think it was perhaps Michael Bussee, that if all these organizations did was minister or support people who have unwanted same sex attractions I wouldn’t have a problem with them. But they don’t do that. They take the Change Is Possible Mantra into the Public Square to deny Civil Rights to sexual minorities who do not want to change, sexual minorities who are happy with the way they are.
Here is what PFOX says,
All people should be treated with dignity. We respect the opinions of others, even if they disagree with us
IMO I don’t think denying a couple of the same sex the Constitutional Right to Civil Marriage is treating people with dignity. And this is exactly what PFOX and the other members of PATH do.
SGM –
Yes, it’s true-ish. Transsexuality was put into the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistics Manual) at the same time that Homosexuality was taken out. Before then, it wasn’t pathologised. There appears to have been an element of quid-pro-quo there.
Currently, there’s a number of diagnostic codes, corresponding to a minority of those categorised as “Transgender”. I’ll address the (US-only) DSM-IV-TR, but the WHO’s ICD-10 diagnostics manual differs only in detail.
In context, here they are:
302.2 Pedophilia
302.3 Transvestic Fetishism
302.4 Exhibitionism
302.6 Gender Identity Disorder in Children
302.6 Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (NOS)
302.70 Sexual Dysfunction NOS
302.71 Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder
302.72 Female Sexual Arousal Disorder
302.72 Male Erectile Disorder
302.73 Female Orgasmic Disorder
302.74 Male Orgasmic Disorder
302.75 Premature Ejaculation
302.76 Dyspareunia (Not Due to a General Medical Condition)
302.79 Sexual Aversion Disorder
302.81 Fetishism
302.82 Voyeurism
302.83 Sexual Masochism
302.84 Sexual Sadism
302.85 Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults
302.89 Frotteurism
The ones in bold indicate subgroups of those classed as “Transgender”.
302.3 Covers men (only) who dress in the opposite sex’s clothes for a sexual thrill. It excludes women who may do the same.
302.6 Covers children, Intersex people who were surgically assigned an arbitrary sex and are unhappy at having been castrated, and those who would otherwise be classed as Transsexual (302.85) except for being Intersex.
302.85 Covers classic Transsexuals “men born with female bodies” or the reverse. The cross-sexed neuro-anatomy they all have is not deemed an Intersex condition. A significant proportion, about 10%, of such diagnoses are found to be erroneous if they have sex reassignment, as it’s found they have Intersex conditions too (so should have been classed as 302.6).
Most “Transgender” people don’t fit in any of those categories.
It was recognised at the 2009 American Psychiatric Association conference that those diagnosed under 302.6 and 302.85 were not “mentally ill” – they didn’t fit the criteria – yet they required medical treatment, so they have been kept in the revised DSM-5. Moved to another section though, as classifying 5 year old children as “sexually disordered” alongside pedophiles, sexual sadists etc didn’t make anyone feel comfortable.
From Psychiatric News February 20, 2009 Volume 44, Number 4, page 13:
The symposium:
S6. “In or Out?”: A Discussion About Gender Identity Diagnoses and the DSM (DSM Track DM03)
1. The DSM-V Revision Process: Principles and Progress William E. Narrow, M.D.
2. Beyond Conundrum: Strategies for Diagnostic Harm Reduction Kelley Winters, Ph.D.
3. Aligning Bodies With Minds: The Case for Medical and Surgical Treatment of Gender Dysphoria Rebecca Allison, M.D.
4. The Role of Medical and Psychological Discourse in Legal and Policy Advocacy for Transgender Persons in the U.S. Shannon P. Minter, J.D.
Overall, the classification of a biological problem as a psychiatric one does more harm than good – it’s used to deny Trans people human rights, for one thing, in courts and legislatures. For another, most Insurance companies don’t recognise it as a medical problem at all, and exclude coverage for it and anything related to it. It’s deemed a “lifestyle choice”. The disadvantages are very real, the benefits largely illusory.
I could answer in far more detail, but I’ve already hijacked one thread. It really needs its own.
Well Ken .. while I assume your question was rhetorical .. my response is that up until a few years ago I couldn’t concieve of fellow Christians publically lying to me and others .. now .. I have almost come to expect it .. though I admit .. it still does surprise me on occassion.
Dave
Dave# ~ Nov 21, 2011 at 4:42 pm
“On a different note .. I am still amazed at this brazen unfounded attack on your position and character. The slurring of terms and the smear campaign they engage in is beyond belief.”
why is that surprising to you? unfounded attacks are par for the course for these organizations. And since Warren was an expert they once relied on for their claims, the fact that his opinions have changed make Warren more dangerous to them than someone like Simon LeVay or Dean Hammer. Further, I suspect their attempts to discredit Warren are going to blow up in their faces.
Note, in none of the attacks on Warren do the words “science”, “psychology” or “research” appear.
*gag*
Ok .. what did I do .. now one of my posts is in moderation LOL
SgG.. Don’t believe everything you read .. Simply go to PFOX’s about us page here: http://pfox.org/about_us.html From there click on the link in the first paragraph .. see here .. http://www.pathinfo.org/ Skip the intro unless you really like the music and it takes you here .. http://www.pathinfo.org/index2.htm
Quote from the first paragraph follows ..
Now to be honest .. scrolling down this page they seem to affirm personal choice and client self determination which seems encouraging …. But then you look to your right as you scroll down the page and you notice all these exgay organizations listed .. including .. NARTH.
Meanwhile back at the PFOX about us page .. if you scroll further down you will hear all theses statements about how exgay’s are the smallest minority and how they are mistreated (I don’t buy this at all). Might they be mistreated?? .. sure .. but that usually happens when when they use their “change” to influence political ads that say gays don’t need protections they can just change .. Or when they misrepresent their “change” to the public schools in terms of success rates and such. And further down the original about us page is the typical far right drivel about liberties and free speech and hate crime laws. Its too much to much to unpack for I do not have the time. Suffice to say its not as simple as the letter you quoted. Take your time .. read all their material if you have time and draw your own conclusions. Note that you will have to go to each and every news story or alleged incident (which means you will have to find them first) to get an unbiased understanding without their spin. My experience is that lists of incidents like what they show usually do not quite add up the way they say they do.
Happy hunting and God bless,
Dave
Oh one more thing, in that letter they are apparently against transgender. I thought it was rather, I don’t know what the right word is, rather, I guess DISCRIMINATORY is the right word. I thought their use of the term cross dressing was meant to incite not inform. Here from the same letter
I didn’t know being transgender is a disease, is that true?
This is another one of those confusing articles which requires me to read it 3 times before I can figure it out.
In this link you posted “PFLAG of making hateful statements” over there there is another link that takes you to this letter that PFOX wrote http://pfox.org/PFOX_answers_PFLAG.html
In that letter PFOX says they support gays, here it is in their letter,
So I guess you must have it wrong Warren, it seems from what PFOX writes they have always been pro-gay. Maybe you just misunderstood? Dunno, it is in their letter they are both pro gay and pro ex-gay. That is what they write anyway.
And, of course, we must never forget that these ‘therapists’ make money from their activities, and people always hurt the most when they feel they are being ‘punched in the purse’.
“Almost a month has gone by and this blatant pro-homosexualist initiative at IHF has gone unchecked!”
Well, Warren, I suspect LeB. & Co. are inordinately angry with you because you started the unpicking of the seems of the ’emperor’s clothes’. As my old man (RIP) would have said with a little smile: “Well, that’s their problem, isn’t it?”
I was wondering .. do any of these groups actually cause you any trouble at the college or is GCC leadership already aware of the political games they play?
On a different note .. I am still amazed at this brazen unfounded attack on your position and character. The slurring of terms and the smear campaign they engage in is beyond belief.
Dave
Dave# ~ Nov 21, 2011 at 4:42 pm
“On a different note .. I am still amazed at this brazen unfounded attack on your position and character. The slurring of terms and the smear campaign they engage in is beyond belief.”
why is that surprising to you? unfounded attacks are par for the course for these organizations. And since Warren was an expert they once relied on for their claims, the fact that his opinions have changed make Warren more dangerous to them than someone like Simon LeVay or Dean Hammer. Further, I suspect their attempts to discredit Warren are going to blow up in their faces.
Note, in none of the attacks on Warren do the words “science”, “psychology” or “research” appear.
*gag*
Welcome to the outcast group.
Ok .. what did I do .. now one of my posts is in moderation LOL
SgG.. Don’t believe everything you read .. Simply go to PFOX’s about us page here: http://pfox.org/about_us.html From there click on the link in the first paragraph .. see here .. http://www.pathinfo.org/ Skip the intro unless you really like the music and it takes you here .. http://www.pathinfo.org/index2.htm
Quote from the first paragraph follows ..
Now to be honest .. scrolling down this page they seem to affirm personal choice and client self determination which seems encouraging …. But then you look to your right as you scroll down the page and you notice all these exgay organizations listed .. including .. NARTH.
Meanwhile back at the PFOX about us page .. if you scroll further down you will hear all theses statements about how exgay’s are the smallest minority and how they are mistreated (I don’t buy this at all). Might they be mistreated?? .. sure .. but that usually happens when when they use their “change” to influence political ads that say gays don’t need protections they can just change .. Or when they misrepresent their “change” to the public schools in terms of success rates and such. And further down the original about us page is the typical far right drivel about liberties and free speech and hate crime laws. Its too much to much to unpack for I do not have the time. Suffice to say its not as simple as the letter you quoted. Take your time .. read all their material if you have time and draw your own conclusions. Note that you will have to go to each and every news story or alleged incident (which means you will have to find them first) to get an unbiased understanding without their spin. My experience is that lists of incidents like what they show usually do not quite add up the way they say they do.
Happy hunting and God bless,
Dave
Oh one more thing, in that letter they are apparently against transgender. I thought it was rather, I don’t know what the right word is, rather, I guess DISCRIMINATORY is the right word. I thought their use of the term cross dressing was meant to incite not inform. Here from the same letter
I didn’t know being transgender is a disease, is that true?
WHAT? The EARTH revolves around the SUN?
Okay, admit it Warren, that really was you in the mask and tights, as the “Gay Crusader” in last years pride parade, wasn’t it ? 🙂
Better stay away from that “Science Stuff” Warren, or next thing you know you’ll be claiming that the world isn’t flat and that the earth revolves around the sun.
This is another one of those confusing articles which requires me to read it 3 times before I can figure it out.
In this link you posted “PFLAG of making hateful statements” over there there is another link that takes you to this letter that PFOX wrote http://pfox.org/PFOX_answers_PFLAG.html
In that letter PFOX says they support gays, here it is in their letter,
So I guess you must have it wrong Warren, it seems from what PFOX writes they have always been pro-gay. Maybe you just misunderstood? Dunno, it is in their letter they are both pro gay and pro ex-gay. That is what they write anyway.
And, of course, we must never forget that these ‘therapists’ make money from their activities, and people always hurt the most when they feel they are being ‘punched in the purse’.
“Almost a month has gone by and this blatant pro-homosexualist initiative at IHF has gone unchecked!”
Well, Warren, I suspect LeB. & Co. are inordinately angry with you because you started the unpicking of the seems of the ’emperor’s clothes’. As my old man (RIP) would have said with a little smile: “Well, that’s their problem, isn’t it?”
I was wondering .. do any of these groups actually cause you any trouble at the college or is GCC leadership already aware of the political games they play?
On a different note .. I am still amazed at this brazen unfounded attack on your position and character. The slurring of terms and the smear campaign they engage in is beyond belief.
Dave
Welcome to the outcast group.
WHAT? The EARTH revolves around the SUN?
Okay, admit it Warren, that really was you in the mask and tights, as the “Gay Crusader” in last years pride parade, wasn’t it ? 🙂
Better stay away from that “Science Stuff” Warren, or next thing you know you’ll be claiming that the world isn’t flat and that the earth revolves around the sun.