I have posted several times on the Ugandan conference on homosexuality last weekend. In researching this, I wrote to Exodus International, International Healing Foundation and Scott Lively to ask if they were quoted accurately regarding calls for criminalization of homosexuals and forced therapy as an option to jail. Exodus International issued a statement for today’s Christian Post article on the subject. Neither Richard Cohen nor Caleb Brundidge have issued statements; Extreme Prophetic – Mr. Brundidge’s other affiliation has not issued a statement. However, Scott Lively did answer my request for a statement. I asked him if he favored criminal penalties for homosexuality in Uganda and if he favored compulsory therapy as an option. He requested that I present it exactly as written so here goes:
I did promote therapy as an option to imprisonment, citing my own experience benefitting from optional therapy after an arrest for drunk driving many years ago. In fact, it was during that period I accepted Christ and was spontaneously healed of alcoholism and drug addiction.
I don’t think under the circumstances homosexuality should be decriminalized in Uganda since it seems to be the only thing stopping the international “gay” juggernaut from turning Uganda into another Brazil.
It is hard to know where to start here. The assumptions are that an analogy to drunk driving is reasonable (nope) and that disagreement with homosexuality should be enforced via the coercive power of the state (we can’t go there – what other ideas and beliefs might states want to coerce?).
For now, how about readers taking over…
Scott lively is neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. For him to equate drunk driving (and his own drug addiction) as tantamount to homosexuality and thus ” it was during that period I accepted Christ and was spontaneously healed of alcoholism and drug addiction” is not a retraction of his call for jailing (and even executing) homosexuals. Everything he has written and said for the record flies in the face of serious psychological studies. Every reputable and recognized group (from the American Psychological Association, American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, and so forth) have long noted that homosexuality is a trait born with the fetus’ entrance into this world (whether or not it is genetic or evolves during gestation in the uterus is not yet settled). All the “reparative therapy” — that no reputable counselor or psychologist or even therapist recognizes as legitimate — will not “cure” what is basic within the psychology of the individual. Hitler tried that, and failed–murdering tens of thousands of LGBT people in the Third Reich. As for Exodus International, many of its original founders have returned to a LGBT life style, while members of the clergy, like Ted Haggard and Roman Catholic Bishop Weakland of Wisconsin attempt to hide their own homosexuality but are eventually exposed as with Protestant Bishop Eddie of Georgia while paying off their boy-toys.
And EXODUS sent a rep!!! Something we “founders” would have never, ever done. Heck, we turned down requests from Anita Bryant and John Briggs — and they look downright pro-gay by comparison.
@ David G,
“Conviction (not cognition) is a set of beliefs by which we live, make decisions, choose behaviors, and formulate our lives. This is similar to religion, which the state should neither promote, nor require (’establish’), though it is acquired through experiences in one’s interaction with the home environment, peer environment, school, media, and personal ‘experimentation.’”
I think there is a stronger argument for tolerance and rights for GLBT in this argument than in the innate, biological argument that also uses the racial minority arguement.
GLBT is an identity, wrapped in sensations and experiences and convictions about what works and what is best for them…much like religion.
It may be that religious belief and practice has a genetic component…but we have not argued tolerance and rights based upon that.
That is a very good idea. He is basically promoting unAmerican ideas.
Everyone should write to the US State Department and US Department of Homeland Security Office of Investigations to demand a full inquiry into Scott Lively’s overseas activities, which include inciting violence and persecution against people in Uganda, other African countries, and the former Soviet countries, based on sexual orientation.
This looks like a hit and run by Maureen.
She is not sticking around apparently to address any comments after she posted the article by Lively.
However, for those following this thread, I will mention that there is a coming a more detailed analysis of the Pink Swastika and related arguments, possibly next week but hopefully by the end of the month.
p.s. – I just got a better search result and remember who he is now – thanks!
Maureen,
When was this written and what was the publication? Also, what organization is the autor affiliated with? I looked him up but the results were only of what others said or wrote about him. I know this has been answered before so please forgive the redundant question from me – I should have remembered but didn’t.
How strange.
I certainly know a lot of folks who disagree with me over the sinfulness of same-sex behavior or even about the appropriate response to same-sex attractions who are not homophobes at all.
They don’t feel the need to lie about gay people, seek to impose political punishment on them, imagine disease rates that are literally impossible, or seek to force them into reorientation. They just live in accordance with their faith and invite (not coerce) others to join them.
But Scott Lively… now there is the leaving breathing walking talking visual aide for the term “homophobe”.
You cannot make people ungay!
Oh brother!!!
But in the meantime let us criminalize homosexuality so no one can publicly seek help.
This sounds like the man who beats his wife and says “If only you hadn’t done such and such… I wouldn’t have to beat you.”
C’mon~!!!
Consider this:
Is Hating “Haters” Hateful?
By Scott Lively
“Hate has a pretty bad name in the world today. No one wants to be called a hater, especially Christians, which is probably why we get accused of it all the time by our opponents. Homosexuals are especially fond of calling people haters. They even invented the word homophobia, which means hate and fear of homosexuals, envisaged as a mental illness (a phobia is an anxiety disorder).
I hate being called a homophobe. It has such an ugly connotation. Its especially unpleasant because, as a Christian, I’m supposed to have a reputation for loving people, not hating them. So I’ve worked really hard over the years to try to get the homosexuals to stop calling me a homophobe.
I’ve pointed out the difference between hating people and hating their behavior (loving the sinner but hating the sin). They hated that. Then I tried “walking my talk” by taking an ex-”gay” man who was dying of AIDS into my family. My wife and I and our children loved and cared for him during the last year of his life. They hated that even more.
Then I began asking for guidance from homosexuals themselves: “Tell me, where is the line between homophobia and acceptable opposition to homosexuality?” I asked. “What if I just agree with the Bible that homosexuality is a sin no worse than any other sex outside of marriage?”
“No, that’s homophobic,” they replied. “Suppose I talk only about the proven medical hazards of gay sex and try to discourage people from hurting themselves?” “No, you can’t do that,” they said. “How about if I say that homosexuals have the option to change if they choose?” “Ridiculous” they answered. “Maybe I could just be completely positive, say nothing about homosexuality, and focus only on promoting the natural family and traditional marriage?” “That’s really hateful,” they replied.
After I while, I realized that the only way I could get them to stop calling me a homophobe was to start agreeing with them about everything. But here’s my dilemma: I honestly believe the Bible which says that homosexuality is wrong and harmful and that all sex belongs within marriage. I’ve also read the professional studies and know that “gay” sex hurts people because it goes against the design of their bodies. And I’m friends with a number of former homosexuals who are now married and living heterosexual lives. Do I have to give up my religion? Ignore scientific facts? Betray my friends? Is that the only way to avoid being called a hater and a homophobe?
There’s no escape. A homophobe is anyone who, for any reason, disapproves of homosexuality in any way, shape, manner, form or degree. This leaves me with just two choices: agree that everything about homosexuality is natural, normal, healthy, moral and worthy to be celebrated OR be labeled as a mentally ill, hate-filled bigot.
Am I wrong? Is there any way to openly disapprove of homosexuality without being a homophobe? “Gay” leaders, please set me straight on this.
Because if I’m right, that means the “gay agenda” is to stop everyone from following the Bible regarding sexual matters. It is, after all, their stated goal to “stamp out homophobia.” No more religious freedom. It’s also to suppress scientific research that has reached conclusions they don’t like, especially if it helps people to change their homosexual orientation back to a heterosexual one (ask the doctors and scientists at narth.com what they’ve had to endure). If it discourages homosexuality, even by implication, it’s homophobic and can’t be used.
There’s a queer reasoning behind all of this. Homosexuals call me names like bigot and homophobe, condemn my religion, mock my rational conclusions about social issues, impugn my motives, display intense hostility toward my actions, and curse my very existence, all under the justification that I’m a “hater.” But if I’m a “hater” for civilly opposing what they do, why aren’t they haters for uncivilly opposing what I do? Such a double standard, in the context of a public debate on “civil rights,” is not just hypocritical, it is surreal.
I admit I have some hate. I hate watching people kill themselves with preventable diseases like AIDS. I hate seeing children being steered toward unhealthy lifestyles. I hate having my pro-family views distorted by dishonest journalists, politicians and academics. And I hate seeing my God being treated like a homophobe for what He teaches in His Bible.
So if you’re not going to stop calling me a “hater” for wanting homosexuals to be saved and healed, or for opposing their political agenda, let’s at least see a little more of that famous “American sense of fair play” in the public debate on this issue. Hatred of “haters” is hateful too.”
I agree with you. Seems all very ironic to read some posts.
I’ve had myself in ‘read only’ mode for more than a month now so it was a bit strange to see me mentioned by name in the above post. I’ve been staying out of the fray because, at the moment, I have ‘bigger fish to fry’. So, I won’t be jumping back into the discussions but I do want to address the irony of Michael’s most recent outrage. (LOL. I was trying to remember how many times I’ve heard him say “It’s time for Exodus to disband” over the past several years.)
The real irony, though, is the outrage expressed re the challenge to Freedom of Speech. This coming from the man whose major goal seems to be restricting Exodus’ freedom of speech. Let’s see: the term ‘ex-gay’ needs to be stricken from their vocabulary; the word ‘change’ should also. Exodus lightened up on their use of the ‘S’ word (‘sin’) years ago and substituted the words ‘broken’ or ‘fallen’. Michael takes exception to those as well. ‘Healing’ is also on the censorship list since it implies that something is broken.
‘Advocacy’ is a word charged with the meanings of ‘promotion’ and ‘support’. Would Michael approve of ‘public promotion’ or ‘public support’ of the beliefs that Exodus holds? Of public monies or energies giving Exodus equal time in public school sex education classes to promote their viewpoint? The answer is a resounding ‘NO’. Not only does he not favor their public promotion, he wants them censored and dreams of their disbandment. The noble ideal of “Freedom of Speech” needs a better champion.
Note that in his letter to the Russians, Lively essentially calls for the abolition of Freedom of Speech: “Third, criminalize the public advocacy of homosexuality.”
In light of all this, ANY person or minisitry who would supportive of or remain a member of EXODUS shares the shame. Time for EXODUS leaders, past and present, to speak up. (That means you too, Eddy.)
Time for EXODUS in its current form to disband. Let’s start list of all EXODUS ministries who fail to call on Alan Chambers to step down and make them known., They can’t hide in silence any longer.
Someone brought the following passage from a Lively letter to the Russian people (I wonder how such a letter would be delivered?):
It is a fair question to ask whether Don Schmierer knew any of this before he went to Uganda with him.
What gets me is does this Scott Lively guy understand that substance abuse is rarely if ever overcome by cooercion from the courts? It may have worked for him (to reduce his sentencing) but it rarely has long term effects. Does he understand that complusory counseling after or during incarceration has little to no effect on “recidivism” ? His understanding of social policy, law enforcement, and “rehabilitation” needs some insight.
Conviction (not cognition) is a set of beliefs by which we live, make decisions, choose behaviors, and formulate our lives. This is similar to religion, which the state should neither promote, nor require (‘establish’), though it is acquired through experiences in one’s interaction with the home environment, peer environment, school, media, and personal ‘experimentation.’
Exodus International is a moral and spiritual failure. It should be done away with. Shame on Exodus!!!!! SRSLY
@DAVE G: I dont think cognition is all there is to it but assuming so what do think that would mean for a state?
“The assumptions are that an analogy to drunk driving is reasonable (nope) and that disagreement with homosexuality should be enforced via the coercive power of the state (we can’t go there – what other ideas and beliefs might states want to coerce?)”
Warren, since you acknowledge that homosexuality is “belief” (I would say ‘conviction’), then the state should treat it as such, rather than promote the misconception that it is innate, or just another point on the ‘spectrum of sexuality’ as hypothesized by so-called experts..
I am truly appalled–by Exodus, Alan Chambers and the whole lot of them. Though I am no longer affiliated with Exodus, I thank you Dr. Throckmorton for speaking up on these issues. I sincerely hope others in leadership positions on this issue will speak out against those involved as well. Perhaps some ministry directors will be bold enough to speak out against Exodus and Alan. Sick. Truly sick and downright evil.
Lively is two-faced, opprobrious offense to mankind. He goes around to those places from without the United States in order to find those who would accept his calumnious ideas for the money and fame it brings him. And then he comes back to the states and says in effect, ‘what, who me?’
Jim or anyone,
Are there any specific suggestions you can give me or people to contact to counter what is being done over there? I want to help.
Warren,
Thank you so much for all of the work you’ve done on this, especially your comments to the Christian Post and Ugandan Pulse. I only wish our own LGBT media were paying as much attention to this as you have.
This is somewhat consistent with advice that Lively gave to Russian authorities.
It is hard to express how disgusted I am with all this. Exodus had no business being anywhere near that conference. They are culpable, morally if not legally, for all the horror that comes out of this next campaign. Any respect I had for Alan as a leader is gone. He is playing politics, being clever with his responses when he knew ahead of time what they were getting into. Alan and Schmierer must leave.
Warren:
Thank you for speaking out on this. Your leadership is much appreciated. As for Lively, he has just confirmed everything we knew about him. He is a very troubled human being and seems determined to cause great harm and hurt many people.
I’m sick. Literally.
If Ugandan history is anything to go by, it’s likely that people will be beaten and perhaps murdered as a direct result of this conference and the related meeting to “wipe out homosexuality” that is scheduled for tomorrow.
Oh my goodness. He has no experience with the physical abuse that homosexuals go through when it is criminalized. What an arrogant and ignorant man! I am shocked at his dismissal of humanity.