Sally Kern: What should she do?
Sally Kern is an Oklahoma state representative who recently found herself a YouTube star thanks to gay advocacy group the Victory Fund. Mrs. Kern, a second term lawmaker from Oklahoma City and Baptist pastor’s wife, was secretly taped giving a rambling speech to her Republican colleagues regarding threats to conservatives in local political races. Her comments, now viewed over 1 million times on YouTube have ignited a firestorm of controversy and opposition, particularly among homosexual rights groups. Perhaps most quoted has been this passage
Matter of fact, studies show no society that has totally embraced homosexuality has lasted more than, you know, a few decades. So it’s the death knell for this country. I honestly think it’s the biggest threat even, that our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam, which I think is a big threat, okay.
Predictably, a firestorm of controversy has enveloped Rep. Kern. She has been defiant and resolute in response. Several days after the YouTube video hit the cyberstreet, Kern was interviewed by a supportive Matt Barber of the Concerned Women for America, where she again stated, “homosexuality, in my opinion, is a bigger threat to this nation than terrorism.”
All of this reminded me of survey findings reported in the recent book, UnChristian, reviewed recently by fellow Crosswalk blogger, Regis Nicoll. Here is Regis’ take on what UnChristian has to say about homosexuality:
In survey after survey, Kinnaman found that the homosexuality issue, more than any other has shaped public perceptions about Christians. “Hostility toward gays–not just opposition to homosexual politics and behaviors but disdain for gay individuals–has become virtually synonymous with the Christian faith,” Kinnaman writes.
Whether or not that’s a fair association, it reflects how we come across to others. When our criticism of homosexual behavior is out of proportion to our concern over heterosexual divorce and promiscuity in the church, it smacks of hypocrisy. Add to that, a perceived air of moral superiority, and you’ve got the picture of the “unChristian.” Again, while these impressions may not accurately represent Christianity, they do affect how the Christian message is received.
Seems to me, Sally Kern’s comments, refusal to see the offense they cause, and the stance of her defenders put an exclamation point on the findings of UnChristian. What makes her comments all the more jarring is that she represents a district in Oklahoma City, scene of the Murrah Federal Building destroyed by domestic terrorist, Timothy McVeigh.
While it is tempting to opine further, I would like to hear from readers on this one. What should Rep. Kern do? Should she stick to her guns, basing her views on her faith? Or should she retract this comparison and engage in dialogue with those who are offended? Or something else?
Email her and tell her you’re listening. I just did. sallykern@okhouse.gov The phone number on her website has been disconnected. http://www.okhouse.gov/Committees/Member.aspx?MemberID=87
I Wonder why?
First, let’s clarify what Kern meant, within the cointext of her speech, especially since the Youtube excerpts are taken out of context. The full transcript of her remarks can be accessed at http://americansfortruth.com/news/full-transcript-of-oklahoma-rep-sally-kerns-speech.html.
Most notably, she admits she misspoke using the words “decades” instead of “generations.” Also, her reference to terrorism was within the context of radical Islamic terrorism, never the Oklahoma City bombing (her speech was given in several different cities at different times, so domestic terrorism was not in mind\).
What should she do? Hang tough! Tough love can be painful at first when truth is spoken, but this is the kind of love needed to turn our culture around. A significant sentence omitted in Youtube and other reports is her statement: “The book that I base my life upon is God’s Word; and it says to love everybody and I try to love everybody.”
Yes, the gay activists are twisting her message to be an attack on homosexuality, probably because the truth is that their identity and corporate being are vulnerable to hard fact and historical evidence. But the right not to be offended is not in our Constitution.
Kern speaks for the many of us –not just Oklahomans; we’re here in Vermont, also, and all across this nation! Christian love is for all persons, but not for person-harmful conduct. Plan ahead at least to the seventh generation.
What should she do? Hang tough! Tough love can be painful at first when truth is spoken, but this is the kind of love needed to turn our culture around.
Comparing gayness to terrorism? Are you kidding me? Tough love? The “truth”? What our culture needs? God protect us from love like hers..
Could Dave G. give us a few examples to support the “truth” of Kern’s assertion that homosexualilty is “the biggest threat even, that our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam”?
There is a big difference between political correctness and TACT. In Sally Kern’s case, what she has displayed is an astonishing lack of TACT. Perhaps it would be good for her to get out more, meet some of her Lesbian and Gay constituents, especially Gay couples. She needs to find out what the lives of REAL Gay people are like, rather than parroting talking points from the Family Research Council. She might find out that the vast majority of her Gay consituents are just ordinary individuals and couples striving to work hard, better their communities, and conduct their lives with decency and humility. That’s a far cry from terrorism.
Perhaps, she should take an etiquette course and research her opinion more before making public statements.
Michael & Chuck,
It’s not a military threat, it’s the historical evidence that civilizations that embraced sexual diversity rather than maintaining the nuclear family did not make it beyond the seventh generation.
Yes, Chuck, she (and I) know some gay couples, and we harbor no animousity toward them. Some called “gay” are merely same-sex pairs living together and caring about one another, which even the Bible does not condemn. Others are immersed in sexual perversity, the morbidity/mortality statistics for which are dismal.
However, neither contribute to a hale and hearty next generation. The nuclear one-man, one-woman happily-married couples produce the best-adjusted children –many studies support this.
Can anyone name even one “society that has totally embraced homosexuality ” and then lasted no “more than, you know, a few decades”? Can anyone cite the “studies” that have supposedly examined and proven such a dynamic?
She needs to question what evangelical Christian leaders say instead of just assuming if they say it, it is therefore true.
The notion that civilizations end because of homosexuality is simply, well, stupid. It also concerns me to have someone determining policy who is so unthinking.
The fact is that Rome became more intolerant of homosexuality as the generations went on, not more accepting. If one were to use a cause and effect argument, which one shouldn’t to begin with but Sally Kern seems to think it appropriate, then one would conclude that Rome collapsed because it became intolerant of homosexuality, not accepting of it. The reality, of course, is the collapse of Rome (and Greece) had nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever. Based on the actual evidence, it is more consistent to say that heterosexuality will lead to the collapse of civilizations because not all civilizations to collapse practiced homosexuality, but they all certainly did practice heterosexuality. Of course, this is a ridiculous argument as well because all societies collapsed for other reasons. Seriously, where do they come up with such stupidity?
So, my advice for Sally is to start being honest and not trust what evangelical leaders say. This is my biggest problem with the anti-gay crowd - they are dishonest, pure and simple.
Dave - I have to ask you to produce the studies.
This is an answer to Nick - ROME. Read some history and you’d know that.
I am deeply saddened that conservatives seem not only unwilling to speak out in opposition to Kern’s absurd statement but some are actually praising her for it! Read the entire thing, in context - it doesn’t get any better. Sometimes someone is just wrong and no amount of wriggling after the fact will make her comparison of homosexuality to terrorism - any terrorism (what is this splitting hairs over domestic vs external?) anything but abysmal.
Kern represents the people in her district, she makes decisions about where money is spent, the priorities of local and state government, etc. And she thinks gays and their participation in government are a greater threat to that government than people who blow up buildings? It really doesn’t matter how she meant that to come across, there is simply no way to say it and have it be anything but hateful hyperbole. How would you like to be from her district and Jewish had her speech been about Jews? That’s how the gays and lesbians there feel now. But it’s beyond that, most of all the Church can’t ignore such hateful distortions, yet I see no one taking a stand against them.
It’s really just sad, there is no other way to describe it for me.
Produce the studies behind all three claims, one per paragraph.
Dan - Again, what studies? Roman civilization has had a profound impact on the world. Rome fell for sure, but do you mean to say, it was due to homosexuality? I have heard that idea before but knowing something about the sexual practices often called homosexuality (pederasty and the like), I do not see how this relates to the modern context.
Please, readers, do not simply assert something, offer references to the studies you appeal to. Rep. Kern said studies and I would like to know what studies.
Dan said:
Dan, can you produce any factual evidence that the Roman Empire fell because they “embraced sexual diversity”?
Also, let’s remember that the Western Roman Empire existed for 500 years (considerably longer than a “few decades”), and embraced Christianity for the last couple hundred years. And strangely enough, among the historical reasons for it’s decline, you will not find sexual diversity but you do find… Christianity.
Warren, I have to admit that it’s been 45+ years since my study of ancient history, but I was impressed with the observations of the writers that the breakdown of family structure, and sexual promiscuity of all kinds was a prominent factor in the disintegration of ancient cultures. Also, the Book of Leviticus explicitly points out the sexual transgressions of nations being displaced, with the warning that even the Hebrew nation will be destroyed if they adopt these practices. Subsequent chapters show that 10 of the 12 tribes did Israel did fall into worship of the fertility gods (Baals) with its emphasis on sexual promiscuity, and these 10 tribes disappeared from history. Sodom & Gemorrah became bywords in post-captivity Judaism for the worst consequences of sexual misconduct, such that even in Jesus’ day the mere mention of them meant “avoid this kind of sexual conduct” –it’s ultimately destructive.
Reminder to David R. et al: We’re talking about behavior, not people. Being a “homosexual” is similar to being a “smoker” –it’s what you do, not who you are. It’s also a matter of conviction –and convictions can change. It does not and never has fit the Supreme Court’s definition of a “suspect” (discriminated against) class of people.
OOPS, sorry. I meant “Subsequent books” –of the Bible.
Dan,
I mentioned Rome. Apparently, you don’t know history very well. Let’s look , shall we?
Many (most) of the early emperors had same-sex relationships.
Christianity became the state religion in 312.
Gay marriages were outlawed in 342.
Corporal punishment for some homosexual behavior was initiated in 390.
All homosexual behavior made illegal in the 500s.
So, at Rome’s height homosexuality was accepted. Rome increasingly became intolerant. Rome fell.
It seems to me that your argument is based on hearsay - you heard evangelical leaders and ignorant evangelical politicians say it, so you assumed it was true, regardless of the facts.
The reality is your arguments are based on bigotry, not evidence. If Christians were treated the way you treat gays, you’d probably say you were being persecuted. Hmm, the Golden Rule? Obviously it’s better to lie about gays than follow Jesus.
Dan-
Rome?? Do you know anything at all about history? The period in which homosexuality became most accepted in Roman society was from the last century BC into the second century AD–the period when the empire was expanding. Julius Caesar was known to have had at least one homosexual affair. Tiberius, Caligula, and Nero were all renowned for their sexual shenanigans, yet the empire kept growing throughout their reigns. Hadrian, who erected temples to his male lover, secured the borders of Rome’s power at its height.
The empire’s decline set in during the third and fourth centuries AD–coinciding, curiously enough, not with the expansion of homosexuality, but the expanson of Christianity. Constantine made Christianity the state religion in 305; the first sack of Rome occurred in 410. And what event preceded the fall of Rome by just a few decades? The first law to ban same sex love, which was enacted in 390, making homosexuality punishable by death.
So one can easily make a case that Christianity is more to blame for the decline and fall of Rome than the “total embrace” of homosexuality.
Try again, Dan.
The root problem in all but one of Diamond’s factors leading to collapse is overpopulation relative to the practicable (as opposed to the ideal theoretical) carrying capacity of the environment.
Homo Edward Gibbons, in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, did p . But Gibbons also maintained that growth of Christianity was the single
Sorry for that last paragraph. Fragments of further comments I thought I had deleted.
I was starting to comment on the recent book “Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed” by Jared Diamond. Diamond examines a number of case studies in which societies have completely collapsed, sometimes in short time frames. He finds that the root problem in most collapses is overpopulation, leading to the depletion of resrouces.
So guess we gays are off the hook there, too.
Dave, you’ve responded to a request for substantiation of a claim of fact, with another claim and no fact. If you have to dig into Leviticus to support Kern’s statement, I think we can just assume you have no proof.
An inaccurate statement along with an opinion I don’t share. There seems to be little of substance here to discuss. It is important that we don’t just repeat stereotypes and rhetoric, which is why you were asked to provide some support for your claims.
It wasn’t homosexuality that caused the fall of Sodom. According to the Old Testament:
“Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
DEAR DAVE GARRECHT:
You write, “Some called “gay” are merely same-sex pairs living together and caring about one another, which even the Bible does not condemn.”
And you have some profound insight into how they care for one another? If they simply say, “Yes, we’re a Gay couple,” are you in the habit of inquiring about their bedroom habits? If sex is out of the question, how about kissing? What if you spotted a male couple holding hands in public? Would that be deserving of your righteous anger?
“Others are immersed in sexual perversity, the morbidity/mortality statistics for which are dismal.”
Monogamy. Commitment. Respect. And most of all, HIV testing. Trust me, David, if a Gay couple that has tested negative for HIV and other STDs enters into a monogamous relationship, this “morbidity/mortality” you speak of is not going to arbitrarily STRIKE them like a lightning bolt hurled by an angry and vindictive God.
“However, neither contribute to a hale and hearty next generation.”
And REGARDLESS of how much respect and human dignity we accord to Gay couples, Straight (i.e. heterosexual) people will always comprise over 90% of the remaining population. Trust me, there is no movement afoot to make homosexuality COMPULSORY. Your “hale and hearty next generation” is in no danger.
I’m curious Warren, what aspect of Christianity, her supposed faith, is she basing her views on? Unless bigotry is an inherent part of Christianity, I don’t see how her views are related in any way, shape, or form to Christianity.
Nick - I am not saying I agree with her; just saying what she claims about her entire speech.
I just want to interject the observation that what has been disclosed regaarding the mayor of Detroit and the now former governor of New York exhibits some of the chastness and probrity that some in political office seem to consider as canon for American hetrosexuals.
What does Kern need to do?
1. Check her Facts. She makes a number of assertions about homosexuality and she needs to be specific. If she does, she’ll find that she’s quoting Paul Cameron on her mortality statistics.
2. Read her History. She makes claims about history that do not seem to be backed up by documentation.
For example, she claims that the founding fathers “gave preferential treatment to Christianity”. This seems to be contrary to not only the Constitution but also that which is fairly well known about the religious beliefs of the most influential of the founding fathers.
She also claims that “no society that has totally embraced homosexuality has lasted more than, you know, a few decades” (later clarified to be “generations”). She needs to specifically state which societies that she is referencing and do a comparison of tolerance towards homosexuality and societal collapse along with reading the reasons that anthopologists and historians give for the collapse.
3. Admit her Errors.
If she finds that she has made statements that are not supported by fact or adequate documentation, she needs to publicly admit her errors and offer an apology. Further, she need to contact those to whom she made false statements and make amends.
4. Be Upfront about her Beliefs.
Based on her statements about Christian preference and subjecting science, education, and libraries to “Christian principles”, it appears that Sally Kern is a Christian Reconstructionist and would put civil law subject to her religious beliefs.
She needs to make this known to her non-Christian and secular constituents.
She also needs to explain exactly what she would do about those gay individuals she castigates. Would she ban Tim Gill from contributing to the political process. Would she disallow city councils from having gay members. Somehow I don’t think she would hesitate to do so and she needs to be very specific about this.
Finally, she needs to explain to her constituents that given the chance to remove terrorism as a threat or to eliminate equality for their gay neighbors, she would choose the second.
5. Repent her Abuses.
Mrs. Kern clearly does not treat her gay neighbors as she wants to be treated. She is willing to bear false witness. She is willing to use the force of law to coerce those who disagree with her from having access to the public libraries, from participation in the public sphere, and from other forms of equality.
That is sin. And she needs to ask God for his mercy and forgiveness.
7. Resign her Position.
Now none of this would be very useful to her political career. But it just might save her soul.
And clearly Mrs. Kern cannot trust herself to place her soul, her integrity, and her honesty as higher than her political ambitions. So she should set those ambitions aside.
Warren,
When can we expect to hear Christians speak out against her unjustified and indefensible lies that give all Christians a bad name and create barriers for homosexuals from hearing the gospel?
Or, as I suspect, will they remain silent, not wanting to appear to “support” the “gay agenda”.
WWJD? Obviously remain silent while one of his followers lies and spreads hatred.
Warren writes: “…particularly among homosexual rights groups.” Phrases like “homosexual rights groups” are disfavored by modern style guides (APA, NYT, WaPo, etc.) and are also inaccurate because most of these groups also advocate on behalf on trans people. “LGBT rights groups” would be the modern usage.
Nick,
I have spoken out. I don’t happen to my a journalist or hold a podium position - but many are aghast at her words. Others on this and other blogs have also spoken out.
Timothy,
I support your suggestions. If I were a citizen in her district, I would request resignation as her views do not represent mine.
But Mary,
Many prominent evangelical leaders either remain silent or have supported her (as is the case with Focus on the Family). Why is it, Mary, that blatant untruths, such as that Rome was destroyed for homosexuality, are allowed to persist within evangelical Christianity? There is absolutely no evidence for it, yet I hear time and again. Why is something so blatantly wrong allowed to persist? At what point can we expect the leaders of this movement to be honest and set the record straight? At what point can we expect them to declare that the information so often used against homosexuals is simply not true. Instead, they remain silent. All the while, their followers continue to spout forth lies, their politicians spout forth hatred. At what point are evangelical leaders going to hold themselves accountable for the truth? My guess is, they won’t - because it is not politically expedient to be honest.
We are told to judge a tree by its fruit. The fruit of evangelical Christianity is rotten, putrid, vile lies, hatred, and “turning the other cheek” when someone else is being viciously attacked.
Seriously Mary, I would really like to know which evangelical leaders have publicly condemned the comments put forth by this “Christian” politician. The short amount of time I have observed this blog, I have seen Mr Throckmorton say she does not speak for him, but I haven’t actually seen him condemn her comments. I asked him if he condemns the comments of people like Ken Hutcherson - who said if any effeminate man held the door open for him he would rip his arm off and beat him with the bloody end - and all I got from Throckmorton was Hutcherson doesn’t speak for him. In other words, he didn’t condemn those words.
No matter what blog I look at, when evangelicals interact with gays I see evangelicals spouting forth lies, disproven “data”, and so forth. I’m judging the tree by its fruit. I’m finding the tree is rotten to the core.
And as someone who actually does believe in God and desires that people follow Jesus, I am sick of these so-called “Christians” claiming his name and then doing everything opposite that he taught. I’m sick of Dobson’s lies. I’m sick of Robertson’s lies. I’m sick of the Throckmorton’s of the world remaining silent, but also being more than willing to be interviewed for Focus on the Family propaganda. I’m sick of these politicians spewing forth hatred, that results in people like me being killed, all the while they claim they are Christian and I’m not. Honest, justice, mercy, faithfulness - I don’t find them in evangelical Christianity. And that makes me mad.
I don’t know, Nick. I , too, wish someone prominent would speak up. Personally, I don’t consider groups such as FOTF or CWA to be all that christian when they twist information around and do nothing when comments like hers are made. But just so you know - a prominent may support her, or not speak up - that doesn’t mean that christians aren’t paying attention and that we don’t accept her.
You know, Christ talks about such people all the time. It is my biggest stumbling block with christianity, too.
But Mary, they did do something - they supported her. What I’m asking is where are the evangelical leaders who care more about truth and honesty than about their bigoted political agenda? I’m still looking, but I’m just more and more realizing that these “Christians” talk Christ but have no clue who Jesus is and simply do not care about truth and honesty. They find the lies expedient and are more than willing to tolerate them. No wonder young people are repulsed by evangelical Christianity.
im a believer, charismatic, evangelical and i have yet to see where scripture, the original greek, in any way says that homosexuality is a sin. its a tragedy that the 18th and 19 century translators made the translations they did.. but they were english and lived under henry the eighth’s enacted law that made sodomy punishable by hanging for 300 years.(it was repealed in the late 1800’s)
what i find unsettling is that this woman was making these pubic statements to private groups. but refuses to be confronted by the groups she maligned.
this is not uncommon with those who hold these views. they have no personnal witness or knowledge of anyone homosexual, yet they give themselves license to say what are the motivatiomns or in the minds of anyone homosexual. in addition they whisper their beliefs among those who think the same, but absolutely refuse, to look those who are gay in the eye and speak these same beliefs to them in the light of day.
how anyone can support kern’s behavior, an elected representative, who has representative responsibilities is beyond me.
NIck,
I agree with you. Some supported her. Not everyone. Tony Campolo has not.
The loudest does not represent everyone.
Warren and Nick R.,
That’s the problem I have. I won’t say too, because I’ll be 54 in July and my anger goes far deeper than “mad”.
There are a lot of gay people who would not automatically turn away the minute they hear the words “Christian” or “Christianity” or “evangelical” if those using those words’ actions and statements had anything to do with the words of Jesus of Nazareth, the inspiration for the religion.
Instead, their words and actions have to do with personal wants for something like political donations and votes, moving up in their social circles, needing to feel superior, a lot of other things. Those words and actions certainly have the aura of the dust one might want to shake from one’s shoes rather than that of allowing Jesus to do what he wants to do in the lives of people who find themselves attracted to members of their own gender, etc.
My anger passed rage a long time ago. It is pathological now, I know it and I’m taking medications and am being monitored by doctors because of it. I’ve been sober and clean since 1985 and celibate since I got healthy (1987), because I would repeatedly make bad choices in relationships based on my negative opinion of myself, even at my best. In other words, I’m admitting that even after my best efforts and years of therapy and work of all kinds, I cannot trust myself to treat myself as your equal. That’s my personal problem, I just felt like spilling my guts here a little bit, because Warren, whom I wouldn’t normally allow myself near, even his words, asked and I can answer tonight, right now, without swearing.
A long time ago a phrase called “black rage” had a short shelf-life. Mine would be called “gay rage”. It’s a direct result of being worn down. I’m not going to magically become not gay, but I have become a lesser human being than I might be, or might have been, because I did not have the strength or whatever others use to cope with it and still thrive. I’ll own up to a certain mental weakness when it comes to dealing with over-stimulation and emotions, I have been disabled since 1982, officially “certified” with the nasty invisible disability known as mental illness(es).
I’ve listening to anti-gay bias (I think that’s more accurate than “hate” sometimes) being used as an excuse for gay-bashing by everyone from elected officials to the Pope to the bullies in the schools and the parents who storm the school boards every couple of weeks over a book or a student-run club or any attempt by any of us to crawl up and out of the gutter so many find it necessary to kick us into whenever they get a chance.
Any, any, any comment boards on the Internet which have anything to do, even tangentially, with gay people are heavy with the naked, exposed American hate (that’s more appropriate this time) of gay people which is encouraged by the likes of Sally Kern (only the latest), Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell’s televised blame-fest after 9/11/2001, James Hartline, Peter LaBarbera, Dobson, Concerned Women for America, and on and on. And these famous people do it with impunity, with no consequences for the most part, encouraging less famous people to do horrible things, to “us”.
I have dealt with their hate for so long and it is so unrelenting that although I don’t admit it often, I have to admit that I have bought into a degree of it and must constantly fight against succumbing to despair and hopelessness. I don’t need their approval, but a moment or two of rest from them would be helpful. Some of that “love” demonstrated for us as human beings would be nice.
The P-FLAG parents in the Pride Parades are always the most popular groups with the participants and their friends along the way, only because they are so rare.
No one is trying to change your religious beliefs (well, I can’t speak for SoulForce, mostly because I disagree with their goals of doing just that, but even they are keeping mainly within their own religion and essentially lobbying the structure for acceptance).
The rest of us want civil equality as promised by the Constitution. That is what the “gay agenda” is all about. Equality.
I have to fight hard against giving up. But then another GLBT person is viciously murdered via overkill and horror, and I feel an obligation to at least keep trying even just to record these deaths for posterity, let alone do something about them. That’s beyond me now. I’m essentially agoraphobic, because I have a huge chip on my shoulder, and I’m just waiting for somebody to say something insulting, about anything, about me. I am invisible as a gay man so it’s not exactly fair, but I have the expectation and a sick kind of “I just hope you say something to me, so I can go off on you.” So I act responsibly and keep myself away from people.
My sadness is not about being gay. It’s not caused by being gay. My sadness is about the way people treat us, treat me, even though they never mention my name. I have kinship with whatever happens to “my people” anywhere in the world, and let me tell you as someone who is keenly tuned in to what is happening to “us”, it’s a nasty, deadly, vicious, hate-filled world where gay people are concerned.
We are the focus of so much hatred that people who do not feel this way have a big problem standing up for us even against the Fred Phelps’ of the world. They are unwilling to risk the “taint”. Phelps protested the funerals of many dozens of gay people for years without any of the “love the person” folks coming to stand between Phelps’ family cult and the mourning families, but when he started protesting “your” funerals of soldiers there comes a defense force each time. If you ask me, they should be ashamed of themselves for abandoning people they know are in need of real compassion.
I’ve been sick of these kinds of things for DECADES. And I’m claiming here that some of this stuff is part of why I’m sick the way I am now.
And now we have to have a little debate to decide if Sally Kern needs to apologize for calling her constituents in Oklahoma City of all places, and every gay person alive and dead worse than terrorists and many other insults, some dangerous.
It’s not even seen as a double standard when the worse kind of slurs are stomped on immediately if they are slung at any other group of individuals but they are defended — with the Bible of all things — when they are pointed at my heart and fired with all the vigor any leering, sneering anti-gay religious supremacist of the “American Christian” variety can muster, in public. It’s humiliating, infuriating, and I’m fully aware of the fact that I’ll be dead of natural causes long before my life matters as much as yours.
My opinion is that Sally Kern is a hopeless case, this is not her first anti-gay fest, it works for her politically as it does for so many others, so it doesn’t matter what we think she should do.
Sorry for the length, I promise I won’t be haunting these boards.
Allan,
I am deeply moved to hear your story. It causes me to groan within my spirit and cry out for a rediscovery of Jesus in the systems and structures and power centers of our world.
As for Kern, I also don’t have any particular profile or podium, but I do NOT endorse anyone using biased, misinformed statements against a group of people created in the image of God as a political weapon to gain power.
shalom.
Like Sally Kern, I too am extremely concerned about the effect the homosexual ‘rights’ movement is having on our society.
Lesbian Georgetown law professor Chai Feldblum has admitted, in her legal brief for the Beckett Fund, that achieving what she and other homosexual and transgender activists view as ‘equal rights’ means the destruction of freedom for ‘religious’ people. She contends that it is a “zero-sum game”; a gain in rights for homosexuals constitutes a loss in rights for conservative people of faith. That seems to me to be a fool’s bargain but I applaud her honesty tremendously.
Here’s a sampling of that loss of rights I have observed in just the last few years that causes me, and apparently Sally Kern, great concern:
SWEDEN has amended its constitution to prohibit speech critical of homosexuals. One Christian pastor had to fight conviction for preaching against homosexuality all the way to the Swedish Supreme Court. Another has already served jail time.
GREAT BRITAIN
-Christians are starting to be rejected as foster and adoptive parents because of their beliefs regarding homosexuality.
-An Anglican bishop in was fined the equivalent of $92,000 for refusing to hire a homosexual man as a Christian youth worker.
-London police conducted a formal hate-crimes inquiry against a Christian pastor for his view that homosexuals can change their sexual orientation with therapy
-Great Britain has just outlawed ‘hate speech’ against homosexuals. Violators can be sentenced up to seven years in prison.
-In Great Britain after last April’s implementation of the Sexual Orientation Regulations (SOR’s), British religious schools are prohibited from teaching children that the Christian viewpoint on sexual morality is “objectively true.”
CANADA
-In Ontario, Canada, a mayor was fined $10,000 for refusing to declare “Gay Pride Week.”
-A former pastor was hauled before a human rights commission over the course of five years, finally found guilty and fined for a hate crime because he wrote a letter to the editor, critical of the homosexual ‘rights’ agenda, and a homosexual kid was beaten up two weeks later. (The letter in no way advocated violence.) The pastor had to pay for his own defense but the legal costs of his homosexual accusers were paid for with tax dollars.
-A printer was dragged into court and fined because he refused to print promotional materials for a homosexual activist organization. He lost the case and went out of business as a result of costs incurred.
-Radio stations in Canada can no longer air Focus on the Family radio broadcasts that contain Biblical content regarding homosexuality, without risking large fines or losing their license.
UNITED STATES
-Eleven Christians, including a couple of grandmothers, were arrested under hate crimes law in Philadelphia for Christian witnessing at a GLBT event in the streets of Philadelphia.
-In Illinois, Matt Barber was fired by Allstate Insurance for posting an opinion piece opposing same-sex marriage, on his own computer, on his own time.
-Boston Catholic Charities Adoption Service was forced to close its doors after 100 years of good work. They simply could not comply with Massachussetts anti-discrimination law which requiring them to place children with homosexual couples.
-In February a federal court ruled that schools can teach homosexuality without parental consent or choice to opt out. The Judge said good citizens must accept homosexuality in the name of “diversity.”
- California public schools are now required to teach a positive message about homosexuality, bi-sexuality, and cross-dressing to students from Kindergarten through 12th grade. (This is not a law with which Christian parents or teachers can comply…)
-A judge in CA just ruled that homeschool moms must be certified by the state to teach their children. (Options for Christian parents are being systematically shut down…)
-A Christian photographer in New Mexico is being tried under state antidiscrimination laws for declining to photograph a same-sex “commitment ceremony.”
There is more - much more. I haven’t even listed events from corporate America or public education but I think you get the point. If homosexual ‘rights’ activists get what they want it will become very difficult for Christians to live, work, raise our families and operate our ministries according to Biblical truth.
Sally Kern is right in saying this is monumental. The freedom for Christians to LIVE according to Biblical truth regarding this issue is being systematically outlawed.
Teri: Please be aware that not all gays or gay activists are in the same camp. I am Christian, gay, and have been called a gay activist. I certainly do not support laws to limit religious freedom. Not all gays have a gay agenda.
I am very glad to hear that Michael - but unfortunately the problem remains.
Regarding the coming conflict between church and state:
“It’s going to be a train wreck…a very dangerous train wreck. I don’t see anyone trying to stem the train wreck, or slow down the trains. “ - Marc Stern, American Jewish Congree
and Chai Feldblum:
“I’m having a hard time coming up with any case in which religious liberty should win.” -Chai Feldblum, Georgetown Law professor
Link
Nice talking points memo you have there. Care to tell us the source?
“Åke Green prepared the sermon last year, on what the Bible says about homosexuality, with the intention that the townspeople of Borgholm come to hear him. But attendance was disappointing. So Green had his sermon published in the local newspaper. In it, he compared the sin of Sweden to the sin of Sodom.
And he warned, “…our country is facing a disaster of great proportions! Of that we can be sure. God said the land would vomit out its inhabitants…Our country is facing a disaster.”
But it was how he described sexual practices like homosexuality that brought the charge against him:
Green said, “What I said was that sexual abnormality was like a cancer of the society.”
Or more precisely in English, a “cancerous tumor.”
Sound familiar?
Allan,
It is my own research.
Do you want all the sources or are there specific items of interest to you?
Is it your opinion that Ake Green should not have had the freedom of speech to say what he did? That his subsequent arrest and prosecution were warranted?
It is my opinion that Ake Green was subject to relatively new laws regarding what can and cannot be said against homosexuals in Sweden in the newspapers, under the Swedish laws of free speech which are different than ours. His arrest and prosecution were obviously very good for anti-gays, especially since he eventually won his case. He didn’t like the small number of people who chose to go to his church and chose to listen to his sermon, so he inflicted his vile comments on everyone, without their permission. That caught the attention of the lawmakers and prosecutors, not his poorly attended sermon in his church. He chose the medium, and he chose to risk what he did. He eventually won his case. He should have focused on gathering a greater audience of willing listeners if he wanted to avoid the cost of having to defend himself in the non-religious world against defamation of character, slander, etc. (the bit about gays being a “cancerous tumor” was not the only extremely inciteful language that he used in the newspaper). He was popular with Fred Phelps for a while, until he decided Fred was too far out there even for him. He won his case, and helped to clarify the new Swedish laws regarding incitement to violence against gays.
Allan,
I would still like to know:
1. Do you think his arrest was justified?
2. Is that the kind of legislation you would like to see here in the U.S?
Teri,
It’s a total red herring. The Constitution of the United States guarantees the freedom of speech. That is why the KKK is allowed to speak their hatred of blacks, that is why neo-Nazis are allowed to speak their hatred of Jews, and that is why evangelicals are allowed to speak their hatred of gays.
We are not in Sweden, we are not in Canada, we are not in England (unfortunately).
Your argument is a red herring.
No, Teri, it won’t. It just means evangelicals will not be able to spread blatant lies about gays and openly discriminate against people simply because you don’t like them. You will be able to live, you will be able to work, you will be able to raise your families, and you will be able to operate your ministries according to your INTERPRETATION of the Bible. What you might have to do in the future, is be respectful to people for a change.
Teri: I think I understand your apprehension and concern and I am also very troubled by the examples you gave. But I think I may have a bit more faith in our system of government and in the common sense and good will of the American people. We Americans are a tough, free-thinking and independent bunch. We don’t like mixing church and state.
Of course, some (on both sides of this issue) will try and some will succeed — for a time — but in the end, we simply will not put up with any group (”Christian” or “gay”) trying to impose its will upon us or attempting to strip us of of our rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
You said: “If homosexual ‘rights’ activists get what they want it will become very difficult for Christians to live, work, raise our families and operate our ministries according to Biblical truth.” You should have said, “if some homosexual rights activists get what they want…” because only the most extreme of “activists” want that.
I sure don’t I think I am correct in saying that most gay people like me just want the same rights as the rest of our countrymen — nothing more, nothing less. “We” are your family, your sons and daughters, your friends, fellow church members, co-workers and neighbors. “We” really do want “you” to live according to your values and to exercise your rights — as long as “you” don’t try to take away “ours”.
Maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I just don’t think it will happen. It’s too simplistic and too reactionary to make this “us versus them”. Please, keep in mind that there are millions of homosexuals in this country — and I would betcha that the vast majority of those gay folks share the same love of freedom — including religious freedom — as the rest of the country.
I am Christian first, gay second — and I certainly do not support the kinds of anti-Christian discrimination you are describing. It is sad, but I often sense a kind of anti-gay hysteria that “gays” are trying to “outlaw” Christianity. Take heart. “We” don’t want to put “you” behind bars for loving Jesus.
Many, many gays are Christians and love Jesus too. Heck, if you took all the gay people out of Sunday morning church services, the pulpits, the pews (and especially the choir loft) would have lots of empty spaces.
1. He only won eventually because the Swedish Supreme Court (he had lost in lower courts in Sweden) chose not to have the case brought before whatever the European Union’s courts are called, because they felt he would win there, because the European Union is essentially Catholic.
This is the relevant Swedish law:
BRB 16:6 para.8 reads as follows:
“8 para: Anyone who, through expression or other form of communication that is spread, threatens or expresses disrespect for a group of people or other such groups of persons with reference to race, color, national or ethnic origin, confession of faith or sexual orientation, is sentenced for instigation against a group of people to prison up to two years or, if the crime is minor, to fines.
If the crime is major is sentenced to at least six months and up to four years in jail. In the determination of whether the crime is major, consideration shall be given to whether the message has had an especially threatening or offensive contents and whether the message has been spread to a great number of people in a way that is meant to generate considerable attention.”
He won because of the religious background of his violation of this law. Absent that, he would have lost. He took advantage of the religious protection to violate the sexual orientation protection.
Yes, the charges should have been brought. Yes, the lower Swedish courts were both right when they upheld the charges against him. Their Supreme Court did not say he shouldn’t have been charged, or that he didn’t violate Swedish law, they only said that the European Union court wouldn’t uphold the charges because of his insistence that he was basing his statements on his interpretation of his version of his Bible, and they were right that it wouldn’t.
2. Unless you are willing to dump existing American laws protecting against discrimination and the defamation of other American citizens based on sex, race, color, national or ethnic origin, or chosen religion, then yes, “actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender” should be added to the same national laws which prohibit discrimination and defamation against you.
Sorry, correction to the above. I meant to say: “I AM sure that I am correct in saying that most gay people, like me ,just want the same rights as the rest of our countrymen “
I decided to do quick research on just one of the US cases cited by Teri as an example of free speech restrictions on Christians. I picked the first one, “Eleven Christians, including a couple of grandmothers, were arrested under hate crimes law in Philadelphia for Christian witnessing at a GLBT event in the streets of Philadelphia.”
Just a couple of quick checks in Google revealed that Teri is grossly misrepresenting this case. The group arrested for “Christian witnessing at a GLBT event” were actually trying to disrupt a stage performance at a Gay Pride street fair with bullhorns and loud whistles. They were also blocking access to vendors at the fair. The police directed them to move to a position further up the street, where they would have been allowed to continue their protest without directly infringing on other people. They refused to move, which is when they were arrested.
Subsequently, the charges against the protestors were dropped. However, they then filed suit against Philly Pride, the sponsor of the Outfest event, its director, and some of the police offices involved. That suit led to a federal district court decision that the festival organizers had the right to completely exclude a group like these protestors from the festival grounds. Teri might be interested to learn that the court’s decision was “primarily based on the United States Supreme Court’s holding in Hurley v Irish-American GLB Froup of Boston (1995) that a private organization could not be compelled to include a group of LGB de-scendants of Irish immigrants in their annual St. Patrick’s Day parade because the organizers had a right to exclude messages with which they did not agree. The Court recognized that it was essential to the protection of free speech rights to give an event organizer the right to shape the message of its event. ”
In other words, the same rights that protect religious groups from having to include pro-homosexual messages in their events give gay groups the right to exclude religious protestors from our events.
I’d recommend that anyone who wants further info on this one case cited by Teri read the Philly Pride press release explaining the court decision.
http://phillypride.org/news5.html
I don’t have the time or inclination to research all of the other examples Teri cites. But I think it’s clear that he is either deliberately exaggerating his cases, or merely parroting biased sources that don’t tell anywhere near the full story regarding these episodes.
Teri,
Your behavior here is an example of why gay people do not trust conservative Christians.
I am very familiar with most of what you listed as fact… and it simply isn’t true. All of your bullet points are distortions and some are downright lies. You claim end results when in fact the very opposite occured.
Let me give but two small examples where you came here seeking to deceive:
The truth is that they were arrested for refusing to follow police commands resulting from their efforts to disrupt a gay event in a public park with bullhorns. But you know that most people are not sympathetic to those who seek to disrupt and use bullhorns to drown out a legal gathering in a park so instead you lie and say they were witnessing in the streets.
Actually, Barber was fired for writing a homophobic rant on mensnewsdaily (…”the average life expectancy of a homosexual male is only about 45 years old”, etc.) in which he listed his Allstate position to bolster his credibility. But because most folks find it reasonable that a company would not want to be associated with hateful rants, you change the facts so as to try and bolster sympathy.
I could go on. Almost everything you listed is untruthful.
You claim that this is something you personally compiled. So you are fully responsible for knowingly coming here and baring false witness.
Why?
Here’s the trouble: Many “Christians” are afraid of and don’t like “gays”. Many “gays” are afraid of and don’t like “Christians” — and often for good reason. Truth is, many are both Chriistian and gay. Teri’s examples, quoted out of context, only serve to incite more fear and distrust — and widen the divide.
I hope everyone can take a minute to breath…
Bearing false witness is a strong claim Timothy. I suspect Teri really believes that these issues are germane to the Kern situation. Some of what she has listed is not accurate but some is and yet irrelevant to the main point of this post.
If all of what she listed was true, would this add up to homosexuality is worse than terrorism?
The free speech issues are different here so I do not think we have to worry about pastor’s being carted off for sermons. Fred Phelps is a free man as far as I know. If he can say his awful stuff and not go to jail, I don’t think we are Sweden or Canada.
Gays are using the democratic process to further a civil rights program. This is how it works. Jerry Falwell said basic rights include housing and jobs. Basic services include what? Does it include right to get your picture taken? We shall soon see in a case mentioned above. However, I still do not see how this relates to my post.
According to UnChristian we are losing a generation over the strident tone of rhetoric toward gays. Is this a good thing?
As a Canadian, who not only holds a conservative position on sexual ethics, but also leads an organization that addresses lgbt realities from a conservative Christ-centered perspective, I have not experienced any complaints or threats in relation to the hate crime legislation in Canada. Perhaps this is because I work very hard to nuance my language to reflect that I am not hateful towards gay and lesbian people, not seeking to coerce gay and lesbian people to believe what I believe, and not engaged in political matters. I would do this with or without the reality of the legislation - because I believe it is a response that most accurately represents the inclusive and welcoming nature of the ministry of Jesus. But for those less able or willing to do the hard work of wrestling with a manner to engage respectfully and redemptively with gay and lesbian people, perhaps it is not a bad thing for there to be a level of accountability for how they engage others with whom they share society.
Particularly for those who name the name of Jesus ….. really ….. ought it be that we need legislation to compel us to speak in a manner that reflects love, gentleness, self-control, kindness ….. aren’t these the fruits of the Spirit that ought to be reflected in our engagement with any one including members of the lgbt community? If Christians were actually being Christ-like in their engagement on gay issues, perhaps these issues of legislation wouldn’t be before us.
We are losing a generation in significant part due to the “strident tone of rhetoric toward gay people” ….. now is the time for Christ-followers to speak about the manner in which we communicate things we believe ….. in a manner that is actually winsome, attractive and invites people to experience the presence of Jesus. Christ-followers ought not be motivated by fear in their engagement with society ….. Rather, with a willingness to lose, a willingness to suffer, a willingness to die that Jesus modelled for us - we ought to be motivated by self-giving love as we engage the world - including how we engage on lgbt issues.
Just what are we so afraid of? I’m in Canada…… and I am not afraid. I am emboldened to love more outrageously ….. even at the risk of people like Sally Kern considering me to be a heretic.
Nope. Very bad thing. Warren asked: “If all of what she listed was true, would this add up to homosexuality is worse than terrorism?”
Hardly. Terrorism is arbitrary and cruel. There is is no respect for life, law or individual rights. A bomb can go off anywhere. Kern’s comparison is absurd. Whatever their “agenda”, gay rights activists are not terrorists.
Here, in America, any proposed reforms, legisation or limitations on personal liberties or religious freedom must proceed through a complicatred system of checks and balances, court hearings, commitee meetings, endless debates, votes, etc.
You can overturn a bad law. You cant re-materialize the World Trade Center — or un-explode a bomb.
Wow! Bloggers sure multiply! Let me just respond to a few who have addressed my position on Kern’s stance:
Michael Bussee (Mar. 24)
You quote Ezekial 16:49 “Now this was the sin of your [Jerusalem’s] sister Sodom. She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. But you omitted the very next verse which says that instead “Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me.”
So what do you suspect these “abominations” were? Besides Leviticus 18:22, note Jude 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion…”
Chuck A.
Actually same-sex pairs sharing a household and caring for one another are labeled “gay” in today’s culture, but they themselves admit that they don’t identify themselves as such. Nor do they engage in sodomy or any sexual perversions, since their relationship is not sexual.
You’re right, a monogamous, tested and faithful couple will not likely contract any STDs; do you know any such people within the gay community? I surely don’t.
No, but the gay agenda is to make acceptance of homosexuality compulsory; what percentage can a normal population accommodate before reaching a tipping point?
Tim K (also Mary):
You seem to be hoping that Kern will disappear. In her speech she does mention the books she has read (especially the Bible, + several others) from which she has drawn her information. Why should she apologize for repeating what most of us agree with?
John R:
Current authorized translations (not just the KJV) of the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek (and Aramaic) do indeed identify homosexual behavior as grossly unacceptable to God, along with other human behaviors that are identified as “sin.” If you read Greek, see I Corinthians 6:9 –the words regarding homosexual participants are what some today call “tops” and “bottoms.” Also please note that they are only two among a longer list of “sinners.” The read verse 11, which implies that these were transformed, changed, when they became regenerate followers of Christ Jesus. Former homosexuals today attest to the same transforming power.
Regarding bullying, violence, or physical persecution of gays, that is not what I see being taught in the New Testament. The worst it does is recount the consequences of their own behavior. But the Good News is that change is possible. Being GLBT is no one’s immutable destiny.
Wendy said: “If Christians were actually being Christ-like in their engagement on gay issues, perhaps these issues of legislation wouldn’t be before us.
Once again, Wendy hits the nail on the head! Wendy also remarked: ” I work very hard to nuance my language to reflect that I am not hateful towards gay and lesbian people, not seeking to coerce gay and lesbian people to believe what I believe, and not engaged in political matters. I would do this with or without the reality of the legislation - because I believe it is a response that most accurately represents the inclusive and welcoming nature of the ministry of Jesus”
Wow! Wouldn’t it be great if EXODUS and other Christian organizations adopted such a stance? You just might win a generation instead of losing it.
OK guys. Here’s a video of the that incident.
You can judge for yourself. The guys in pink are the homosexual activists.
I have no wish to deceive or in any way misrepresent the truth. There is no need to exaggerate. If you don’t agree with my assessment of the Philly 11 incident I’ve got 16 other examples…
Alan, you have made my point for me. If I understand what you have said, you would see our freedom of speech destroyed in order to silence dissent. I would submit to all of you that there is a tremendous distinction between discrimination on the basis of an unchangeable characteristic and discrimination on the basis of behavior. I cannot consider homosexuality an ‘orientation’ any more than I can consider someone who cheats on their spouse to have an ‘adulterous orientation’ or people who lie to have a ‘dishonest orientation…’ I don’t believe homosexual behavior falls into a special category.
As a Christian, I reserve the right to discriminate against what I believe God has revealed to be sinful behavior. In fact, I MUST do so (not in all circumstances, but clearly in some…) I also reserve the right to speak what I believe is the truth about it.
Allan, you want see laws passed that would force Christians to abandon traditional Biblical values and adopt YOUR values. This we cannot do. In the words of Peter, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. ”
Michael, you say you are a Christian yet you apparently have an unbiblical confidence in the nature of mankind. All things being equal, people do not choose the high road. We choose the easy road. We are sinners, therefore we sin. I think there is enough evidence in Germany the last century alone to make my case for me that we ought not put our trust in the goodness of man…
I stand with Sally Ken in my sincere concern about the serious threat posed by the homosexual ‘rights movement to fundamental freedom .
Dave G. I didn’t overlook the verse about Sodom. I maintain that being “arrogant, overfed and unconcerned”, and not “helping the poor and needy” are glaring examples ot being “haughty” and are indeed “abominations” before God.
Injustice is an abomination. So is lack of compassion for the poor, the vulnerable and the needy among us. Sodom was destoyed for generalized wickedness and “abominations” — not homosexuality. If anything, the Sodom story seems to be referring to gang rape. It looks like he mob would have been just as happy raping women.
You then boldly assert that the passage in First Corinthians clearly refers to what we would today call “tops” and “bottoms”. How can you be so sure? (And besides which, not all gays are “tops” or “bottoms”.) Fact is, words change in their meaning over time, between groups of people and across languages.
To be fair, 2000 years after he wrote it, we cannot be sure exactly what Paul meant. The words he used are not altogether clear. He is condmening something, but what? It seems Paul may have coined one of the terms and that he may be referring to the practice of using boys as sex toys for the rich and indulgent. It is not so black and white. There is legitimate debate among biblical scholars as to what these passages actually mean.
Maybe this will bring it into perspective David.
Twenty-Five Years of HIV/AIDS — United States, 1981–2006
David, In 2006, more than 1 million persons are living with HIV/AIDS in the United States, and an estimated 40,000 new HIV infections are expected to occur this year - Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
AIDS has led to the deaths of more than 25 million people since it was first recognized in 1981, making it one of the most destructive epidemics in recorded history. Despite recent improved access to antiretroviral treatment and care in many regions of the world, the AIDS epidemic claimed approximately 2.1 million (between 1.9 and 2.4 million) lives in 2007. - Wikipedia
I think her comparison to terrorism had negative connotations and was unnecessary, however her point was clearly made that more Americans have dies, and continue to die from AIDS related illnesses compared to those who have lost their lives as a result of terrorism on US soil.
The solution is not to find some miracle cure, but to refrain from the behavior that has caused this pandemic in the first place.
Michael,
Have you ever considered the scholarship of Rob Gagnon on this subject?
Link
Teri: I dont just say I am a Christian> I am one. I am His child, saved by His blood, just as you are. And I I don’t have an “unbiblical confidence in the nature of mankind”. Quite the contrary! Humans are a mess! I know that Jesus died for us because we are (all) sinners.
What I do believe in is the redemptive potential of man. I believed Jesus died for something valuable and precious. I also believe in our system of government. I am not afraid, as you seem to be, that the wicked gay activists have mighty power, will undo the Consitution and the Bill of Rights and, if unchallenged, will conquer and dominate the helpless “Christians”.
Gays are not out to persecute Christians or outlaw their religion. Why would we want to jail ourselves or take away our own rights? The point you seem to be missing is that many, many gays are Christian. Why do you insist on this false “us” versus “them” dichotomy?
Teri: I have considered what he has to say. I did not come to my beliefs lightly or without much serious prayer and study. The point is, that there are sincere, Bible-believing, born-again Christians and scholars who disagree on these passages. Is it possible, just possible, that you may be wrong?
Steve - the restraint in Africa would be what? AIDS is not solely an American problem. We need to focus on behavior and not attraction, in my view. Promiscuous behavior is risky, whether a gay person or straight person is engaging in it. Having said that, how does what you pointed out relate to Kern’s statements?
What public policy measures would you implement if you adopted the stance that homosexuality is worse than terrorism?
Michael,
I am certain to be wrong about a lot of things. When I find out what they are I will certainly change my mind. (I’m smiling as I say that…)
I won’t argue the homosexuality/Bible issue with you because I certainly cannot make a stronger argument than Rob Gagnon and you have already considered his scholarship.
I will, however, take you up on your other point. 99% of the people pushing this agenda and making our laws and public policy are NOT redeemed. The Bible tells us that they are blind to the truth.
The Bible and history shows us that we as human beings are capable of rationalizing even the most hideous of sin against our fellow human beings. The destruction of religious, speech, association and conscience liberty is nothing compared to some of the things that have been done and justified by supposedly civilized societies. Slavery comes to mind. Remember the Dred Scott decision?
I predict that the destruction of freedom for Christians will in fact be applauded by people who are convinced that it is justified in the quest for ‘equal rights’ for LGBT persons. Remember the Chai Feldblum quote? She cannot think of any circumstance in which religious freedom should win. She is a professor of law at Georgetown training the brightest young legal minds…
Dave,
You may be surprised to find that “most of us” do NOT agree with Sally Kern. Here’s some polling data.
According to Gallup, since 2004 a majority of Americans think that homosexuality is “an acceptable alternative lifestyle”.
And the Barna Group found that only one-third of Americans said they were significantly concerned about “activists” (35%) and the same proportion felt “lifestyles” (35%) were of major concern.
And a poll by the Center for American Progress found that only 3% listed homosexuality as the most serious moral crisis in America today.
So clearly most Americans disagree with Mrs. Kern that homosexuality is worse than terrorism. As for equality issues, she’s in the minority there too.
The Pew Research Center reports that since 2004, more people favor civil unions than oppose them. And a number of polls agree that about 55% of Americans favor either marriage equality or civil unions (Fox News says 60%).
In 2007, Gallup found that 89% of Americans favor reversing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and that 68% are in favor of including gay folks in hate crimes laws.
Nick,
Have I been disrespectful?
Is it really a red herring?
More:
-Boston Catholic Charities - forced to close down after 100 year of adoption work because they would not place children with same-sex couples.
-Boy Scouts of America - punished for requiring a heterosexual standard for scout leaders.
More than two dozen chapters of United Way have cut off funding for the Scouts, and at least 359 school districts comprising over 4000 schools across 10 states have taken action against them despite the fact that the Supreme Court upheld their right as a private organization to set their own standards for leadership.
-California public schools now required to teach a positive message about homosexuality to children K-12. That is not a low a faithful Christian can comply with, either as a teacher or a parent. What are our options? Not homeschooling…
A judge just ruled that parents must be certified in the state of CA in order to homeschool their own children.
I suppose Christian public school teachers will either have to quit or be fired. They certainl cannot comply with this law in good conscience.
-I look across the pond where you seem to think it’s wonderful and see that speech critical of homosexual behavior can be punished by up to 7 years in prison! Do you understand that? 7 years for speech…
I bet the British thought their freedoms were protected too.
I’m not sure how many more examples you need.
Teri: I find it very sad that you actually believe that there will be a “destruction of freedom for Christians“, that it is somehow inevitable — and that this horrible outcome”will be applauded” and “justified” by those who believe in equal rights for LGBT persons. What monsters you must think we are! What’s next? Feeding you to lions? I certainly would not want to live in your head. It must be a very scary place. indeed.
It won’t happen. If “gays” deny “Christians” their freedoms, they deny their own. What good would that do? Too many Christians, too many people of all faiths, both gay and straight, simply will not let it happen. Most people (I would guess 99%) whether they are “redeemeed” or not, want a just and free society and they will vote for it, demonstrate for it — even die for it. It may take a lot of blood, sweat and tears, but unjust laws can, and often are, reversed. Slavery was abolished, remember?
It’s not this “gays” versus “Christian” doomsday scenrario that you imagine and fear. Remember: Gays ARE Christian, and Jewish, and Muslim, and… We are people of faith, too. Gays want religious freedom as much as you do.
We do not want “special” rights. Just the same rights as straight people. I want to know that I cannot legally be fired to being gay OR Christian. I want free speech regarding my sprituality and my sexuality, I want to be free to form a civil union with the adult, consenting partner of my choice — and I don’t even care if it’s called “marriage”. Straights have made quite a mess of that…
I want to live in a society where I do not have to worry that I will be knifed in the back in a public parking lot — for being gay OR Christian. I happy to say that I am not frightened. What you fear will never happen. Religious freedom AND equal rights will both win because “gay” and “Christian” people really want the same thing and will work for the same thing — life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That it what our society is about.
Timothy and Dave,
FYI the CDC has recently reported that 71% of HIV infections in the United States are the result of MSM.
Link
Dave, you are correct in your assessment that the majority of Americans don’t consider the LGBT rights movement a problem. However, truth is not determined by majority opinion.
And why is this an inaccurate statement David Roberts? – simply because you don’t share his opinion? I don’t suppose you have any bias running the XGW website, do you? So if you hear something you don’t like, you just dismiss it and claim “There seems to be little of substance here to discuss”.
Well I share his “opinion” and I think there is plenty of substance worthy of discussion. When I stopped thinking of myself as “homosexual”, my thoughts and behavior changed. When my convictions changed, so did I. Maybe that didn’t work for you, but it has for many others. Stop being so unyielding about considering the validity of others opinions, and brushing them off simply because it didn’t apply to you personally
Teri-
I followed your link. Do you seriously believe that video shows a group of Christians being persecuted for quietly giving witness to their beliefs? Imagine a pro-gay group forcing their way into a Love Won Out conference with bullhorns and giant pink angels. Not protesting outside the event, mind, but insisting on entering the event itself. I can imagine the screams of outrage at how gay activists were trampling you poor persecuted Christians.
Fortunately, the courts in this country are intent in protecting everyone’s rights–not just the rights of Christian extremists determined to spread a message of hate. (The federal district court that ruled against the Repent America lawsuit describes the “loving witness” of these protestors–”incendiary language, including remarks that ‘Jesus Christ’s blood was not HIV positive’ and ‘that one transgendered participate would ‘go to hell.’ “) As I noted before, the courts found that the same legal protections allowing a St Patrick’s Day parade to exclude gay marchers on ground of the organizers’ religious beliefs also allows gay events to exclude those who come with a hostile message.
In either case, people with a contrary view are free to voice their opinions and protests outside the event. But the organizers of an event have a right to set limits on speech and behavior within the event itself.
It seems to me that by your definition, Teri, religious freedom necessarily includes freedom to harrass and disrupt other people pursuing their own constitutional rights. In that case, I agree with Chai Feldblum that I cannot think of any case where your definition of religous freedom should prevail.
Teri,
Again with the bald accusations that are not based in truth. You know NOTHING about the faith of gay people. Nothing whatsoever.
Yet you arrogantly make accusations.
Warren suggested that “bearing false witness” might be too strong an accusation. But I ask, what does that phrase mean?
If it means someone who goes out proclaiming to know the truth, and declaring themself to be in possession of knowledge,but then presents that which is false, biased, slanted, or inaccurate… well then you do fit that description. It isn’t enough to believe your own claims, you need to know them to be true before you claim authority.
I am not in possession of figures on the faith of gay people. I would suspect that the majority - even the majority of those who were raised in Christian faith - are so disgusted with the vileness of “Christianity” (like the lies told about them here, for example) that they can only see it as an evil religion that sets out to harm others.
Yet there is a rather large minority that can overlook the hostility that “Christians” show them and still look to God.
I don’t know how big that minority is, but I do know that BY FAR the largest participants in the Los Angeles pride parade are churches. And I believe that to be true in most places.
Gaychurch.org lists about 100 chuches in the Los Angeles area alone that are welcoming of gay people. And there are gay Christians from Sheridan, Wy to Duson, LA to Redding, CA to Alfred, ME.
When you talk about 99% of “people pushing this agenda” not being redeemed, you are maligning hundreds of thousands if not millions of gay believers.
Teri: You said “Truth is not determined by majority opinion.” I gues not. It seems like you believe it is determined by you.
Teri said, Alan, you have made my point for me. If I understand what you have said, you would see our freedom of speech destroyed in order to silence dissent. I would submit to all of you that there is a tremendous distinction between discrimination on the basis of an unchangeable characteristic and discrimination on the basis of behavior. I cannot consider homosexuality an ‘orientation’ any more than I can consider someone who cheats on their spouse to have an ‘adulterous orientation’ or people who lie to have a ‘dishonest orientation…’ I don’t believe homosexual behavior falls into a special category.”
You certainly do not understand what I said. I choose to believe it is willful mis-understanding. No gay person, especially, would ever say that they wanted anyone’s Constitutional rights “destroyed in order to silence dissent.” You can’t restrict anyone else’s rights without restricting your own. Get it? You can say your religion says whatever you want and you will only be subject to the natural blowback caused by your own mouth, as Fred Phelps proves every day. Sally Kern did not couch all of her lies as biblical, she insisted her “truth” was coming from verifiable studies which she cannot produce, she insisted on lying about individuals: an easily identifiable “gay teacher two doors down the hall from her” while she was teaching, for example, and insisted he was destroying children’s minds in order to advance the “gay agenda”. That is not legal. There are many laws against defamation of character in the legal sense of libel and slander, and no one has the right to incite anyone to violence against others, which is where this is all headed, inevitably, and why it is seen as a huge problem by gay people.
Your “submission” that there is a “tremendous distinction between discrimination on the basis of an unchangeable characteristic and discrimination on the basis of behavior” omits, as always, the fact that protected religious behavior is the only protected category which is chosen, selected, and easily and frequently changed.
Teri said, I cannot consider homosexuality an ‘orientation’ any more than I can consider someone who cheats on their spouse to have an ‘adulterous orientation’ or people who lie to have a ‘dishonest orientation…’ I don’t believe homosexual behavior falls into a special category.
You “cannot consider,” you “don’t believe.” Legally, your opinion is worthless as a defense of anything. It is your opinion, you’re entitled to it, but it means nothing when it comes to you being able to dictate to me how I can live my free life in this nation. Your conflation of being gay with adultery and lying is nothing more than parrot-talk of the worst anti-gay bigots who have also compared it to pederasty, bestiality, and all sorts of whatnot. You, and they, are stooping to more defamation of my character in order to defend your defamation of my character.
Teri said, As a Christian, I reserve the right to discriminate against what I believe God has revealed to be sinful behavior. In fact, I MUST do so (not in all circumstances, but clearly in some…) I also reserve the right to speak what I believe is the truth about it.
You reserve the right to discriminate against sinful behavior? That’s impossible, you can only discriminate against people. Human beings. Gay people have lives, not “lifestyles” just as hets have lives, not lifestyles. You can discriminate against anyone you want, but if you break laws doing it, don’t expect any court in in any jurisdiction where anti-discrimination laws exist to allow you to get away with it, except in your church, and only if you are not engaged in a government supported activity associated with that church. That’s the whole gist of giving to Caesar what is Caesar’s, etc. It’s called respect for the laws of the land. You are not exempt just because you disagree with the law. And remember, we’re not talking about free speech now, we’re talking about discrimination (housing, work, etc.) and yes, I know that gays are not protected from deeply misinformed people such as yourself in all jurisdictions yet.
Teri said, Allan, you want see laws passed that would force Christians to abandon traditional Biblical values and adopt YOUR values. This we cannot do. In the words of Peter, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. ”
Nothing I could ever imagine having passed as laws protecting me and mine would ever “force Christians to abandon” anything, or “adopt” anything. Adding sexual orientation (which would include yours, by the way) to existing laws has to be approved by the representatives of the people. The people who are overwhelmingly het and Christian. These laws have already been passed in some places, by representatives who are overwhelmingly het and Christian. It is OUR values which are being honored. It is America’s Constitution which is being interpreted by judges (majority het and Christian) appointed by that majority of het and Christian representatives elected by a majority of het and Christian voters. So if you think anyone is actually going to “force” you to become a more accepting person when it comes to your fellow Americans whom you do not agree with, I suggest you look a lot closer to home.
The video proves that the anti-gay religious protesters without permits to protest there were on a piece of public land which the gay people had paid for permits to use on that day, and the law which they violated was the same law which keeps getting gay people arrested if they interfere with the St. Patrick’s Day parade in New York City. They were clearly violating the space which temporarily belonged to the gay people putting on the Pride Festival, a commercial and educational event. They clearly refused to obey the direct commands of the police, they clearly refused to cooperate with police instructions (even after being told that their complaints belonged in a civil court and were not about to be debated there in the street), they were clearly warned and they chose to be arrested. Slam dunk.
Your original list is bunk. Some of the items have been addressed here by others, and I am saying the rest can just as easily be dismissed as propaganda and lies, wherever you got them. They are sucker bait sold by Republicans to Christian supremacists under the guise of detailing the nonexistent “threat” posed by my presence on this planet. “Send us money so we can protect you! Trust us! You know you want to! You know you need us! God told me to tell you this!”
Teri,
I am an ex gay female. Not everyone can change and the science is not clear how much of sexuality is nature or nurture. I understand your view - that you see homosexuality as a behavior. In that respect so is drinking soda, or water, or beer. But no one is telling you which one to drink. Telling a homosexual to behave like a hetersexual is like telling you to behave like a homosexual. I doubt that is something you can do - even if you tried.
As a christian I am aware of your view on the biblical definition of men and women and sexuality. I am sorry to say that other people read the bible in quite a different way. And that is freedom of religion in this country.
The biggest threat to christianity are those who claim to be christian and don’t live as though they are and then demand that others follow their ways. You cannot impose christianity - this is an instruction of God.
Michael,
It really takes a lot of convoluted exegesis to try to undo the Bible’s clear statement