Michael Brown responds to the Southern Poverty Law Center article on ex-gays
I posted yesterday about a Southern Poverty Law Center article, titled Straight Like Me, by Casey Sanchez, which blasted the ex-gay movement. In my post, I note several inaccurate reports. In this post, I provide a brief email interview with Michael Brown, president of the FIRE School of Ministry, who was named in a companion piece, Former Ex-gay Minister Speaks Out. I emailed Dr. Brown with some questions about these statements and he was very kind to respond quickly.
Throckmorton: In a recent SPLC article, you are referred to as giving a keynote at the latest Exodus Conference. This subject of this article asserts that you believe the Old Testament law should be followed regarding homosexuals. Is this your belief?
Brown: Absolutely not! I am not and have never been a reconstructionist or theonomist, and if we were to put practicing homosexuals to death, we would also have to put Sabbath breakers to death, among many others.
Throckmorton: Furthermore, in that same article, you were paraphrased as saying in that same Exodus speech that you encouraged the audience to “give up their lives” in the fight against homosexuality.
Brown: Out of context. What I did say was that JESUS was worth living for and dying for, and I often quote Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., to illustrate what Jesus meant when he said that if we try to save our lives we lose them but if we lose our lives for him and the gospel, we find them. King said, “A man dies when he refuses to stand up for that which is right; a man dies when he refuses to stand up for justice; a man dies when he refuses to take a stand for that which is true.” I was encouraging those fighting unwanted SSA in their own lives to be strong in the Lord and to give themselves unconditionally to His service, then talking about the threat to our freedoms coming through an activist gay agenda as a wake up call.
Throckmorton: Could you react to the following excerpt from the SPLC article: “When you have a keynote speaker like Michael Brown, to me that’s unacceptable. It’s preaching a message of Christians not just simply opposing gay civil rights and believing a spiritual revival is necessary for this country, but actually calling on Christians to lay down their lives in a spiritual revolution to set up civil laws based on one extreme interpretation of biblical laws from the Old Testament [that calls for the death penalty for homosexuals]. It’s Christian Reconstructionism [a doctrine that calls for imposing harsh Old Testament laws on civil society], Christian dominionism. It’s abhorrent, and it’s dangerous, not just for LGBT people but for our entire society. Because if civil laws are based on [Brown]’s interpretation of the Bible, it’s not going to be a democratic society.”
Brown: Well, as a Jewish believer in Jesus and a frontline apologist, I have been accused of many things, but I don’t think I’ve been accused of calling on people to sacrifice our lives to set up OT law! I can actually send you my power point notes from the message or get Exodus to send you the message itself. I have no clue how such a claim could be made based on my message, which completely contradicts the tone and content of my preaching. Interestingly, since the Exodus conference, I have been invited to become a regular conference speaker with Love Won Out, which is hardly known for calling for the death penalty for homosexual practice.
I was also provided with this link [Straight Like Me] in which the following was written about me: “Brown is “a millennial Jew who once described the red T-shirts worn by his ministry students at a gay rights march counter-demonstration as ‘the shed blood of Christ flowing toward the gates of hell.’” I have no idea if anyone ever said that, but it certainly was not me. Also, our red-shirted students were not part of a counter-demonstration but rather of a compassionate, one-on-one outreach during the city’s gay pride event in 2005.
I intend to send the links to the this and the other post about the SPLC article for their reaction which, if I get one, I will post.
UPDATE: Michael Brown sent a link which provides proper attribution for the quote about the red shirts and the gay pride parade. Flip Benham, head of Operation Save America wrote that in this website newsletter.
Poor thing. I just hate it when virulently anti-gay activists are so unfairly maligned like that.
Emproph,
Actually, when I do say something publicly, I’m more than happy to take the heat for it. When things are falsely attributed to me or presented in a totally misleading way — whether unintentionally or not — then I’m happy to set the record straight upon request.
Is this unreasonable?
Unreasonable? Of course not. You’re just not in any “When-things-are-falsely-attributed-to-me-or-presented-in-a-totally-misleading-way” ethical position to be offended. Which is what I was mocking.
Emproph,
It’s always best to make judgments based on facts and truth, not on what hears about someone else. That was my whole point. I fully understood what you were mocking, and I’m not in the least bit offended. Again, I’m simply looking for people to respond to facts rather than misstatements.
As for my ethical position vs. yours, we obviously see that differently.
Michael,
It’s always best to make judgments based on facts and truth, not on what hears about someone else.
I completely agree. As does Emproph, I’m sure.
We’d just like to see that standard applied to you, as well, when you talk about gay people. We don’t like being lied about either, Michael. Perhaps this experience will give you pause the next time you lash out against gay folks.
I think a lot of peace could be achieved in this world if people didn’t think that seeing someone else as your enemy gave you permission to demonize them. Let’s both shoot for that goal.
“I fully understood what you were mocking, and I’m not in the least bit offended.”
Fully? I was mocking your offense taken to the article, not commenting on any potential offense taken to that mocking.
BTW, My ethical position is that “falsely attributing” things or presenting them in a “totally misleading way” is ethically wrong when done to anyone, or any group.
This was “my whole point,” without so many words — that we obviously do see that ethical position differently.
Emproph,
I did understand what your mocking was about. All clear from the start. But to state once more: I didn’t take offense to the article and had no plans to respond to the misquotes until I received an email from Warren asking for verification.
Timothy,
Please let me know what attacks on gay people you’re speaking about. If I really said something or wrote something, then it can be put on the table. But if it’s something I never said, then how can I be guilty of saying it? So, please let me know what you’re speaking about specifically so I can address it.
Dr. Brown,
I have read this article written by you:
http://www.icnministries.org/revolution/CharlotteShamePF.htm
In the article, you use a great deal of stereotyping and bias for homosexuals.
Do you fail to recognize that there are many Christians who are of the GLBT community? Surely you do not think that the folks you mentioned represent all of the GLBT community? Are we to assume that Christians from the past who have killed Jews represent all Christians in the world? Using the logic you used in your article about GLBTs, one could use it in the same way for Christians. Yes? No?
And what about straight couples who kiss each other in public parks? Hold hands?
Shalom,
Grethel J. Rickman (Geulah bat Avraham Avinu v’ Sarah Imeinu)
“A Reform Jew” and former Assembles of God member.
Timothy,
If you can point out a single instance where I have “lied” about the GLBT community, I will correct it publicly. Please be kind enough to do so. In all my public communication, I have done my best to be fair and accurate, taking issue with gay activism, expressing my moral differences with homosexual acts, based on my understanding of the Scriptures, but seeking to treat everyone with dignity as a fellow-creation of God. And if you have never read my statement to the GLBT community in Charlotte, please go to: http://www.coalitionofconscience.org/statements/homosexualCommunity.shtm.
To be sure, there is a moral divide between us simply over our view of homosexuality, and my stance against gay activism is in your eyes a heinous act of unchristian bigotry. I understand that, and I do not minimize our differences. However, you claim that I have lied about the GLBT community, and I sincerely ask you to show me where and when.
Michael
Shalom Grethel,
Thanks for your excellent questions. My issue was with the public displays at a local gay pride event, and as I repeatedly said to the mayor and city council, if there was a heterosexual event marked by the same open, vulgar sexual displays, I would be raising my concerns just the same.
In point of fact, for most of my life as a follower of Jesus (now, the last 36 years), when it comes to sexual and family issues, I have emphasized heterosexual issues, and I continue to address the problems of the breakdown of heterosexual marriages, rampant use of pornography, etc., but when something vulgar is displayed in a park in my city, or when gay activists — which I understand represent just a portion of the GLBT community — tell me what I can and can’t believe (such as the Soulforce Equality Riders), I will take exception and raise my voice.
As for gay pride events, I have agreed with Kirk and Madsen that the wild displays that often take place there actually discredit the GLBT community and should not be associated with gay “pride.” Would you differ?
Regarding GLBT Christians, I do recognize that there are many professing GLBT Christians, including professing evangelicals, but I do not believe that one can follow Jesus and engage in any sexual acts outside of male-female marriage, be it fornication, adultery, or homosexual acts.
We have a DVD of a public presentation we gave at my home chuch on “Can You be Gay and Christian?” I invited local GLBT and gay-affirming clergy to give a presentation but they declined. However, you can hear my perspective on this DVD, which should be available soon. I’d be happy to send out free copies to those on this blog requesting it.
(BTW, great Hebrew name!)
Dr. Brown
Shalom, Dr. Brown.
Baruch HaShem that we live in a country where we do have remarkable freedoms. Yes?
I have a different perpective than you because I am lesbian and my girlfriend is Christian!
Jesus, himself, taught that one should not judge another person. And James taught that anyone who grumbles against his brother will be judged. Who is any one to believe from the Christian camp? Jesus? James? Paul? Anti-gay Christians? Pro-gay Christians?
I feel that the teachings of Jesus should carry more weight.
That’s my two cents.
I have my agreements and disagreements with both sides, Dr. Brown–as I should. I also disagree with having “sides.” Having a “good guy” and a “bad guy” look at matters is a very Westernized concept that does not resolve any conflict or help bring about any type of shalom. Compassionate listening, I feel is much better.
The one thing that I do agree on is that we should try to treat a fellow human being with as much dignity and respect as we can.
I believe every person is created in the image of God.
I also equally believe that we should not opress the stranger, orphan, or widow.
Every citizen should be treated fairly, with compassion, with and justice. I think a society should care for the well-being of all citizens, not just a select few.
I am very surprised that you do not recieve a response from the GLBT and gay-affirm clergy.
Equally so, why do you not come to a conference for the GLBT community? I will try to attend the Love Welcomes All Conference when it is held in my local area again–in Western NC. Would you like to come, Dr. Brown? If you are interested I can discuss this with my Rabbi who knows the proper contacts and with the regional director of PFLAG, who I am also friends with. Would you come to a PFLAG meeting?
I am also open to reading and hearing any material presented from anyone in regard to their views. You may send me a copy. How may I send you my postal address? Just do not expect me to share your beliefs or to change just as you have stated that you do not like others to tell you that you should change your beliefs.
My Hebrew name? Thanks! Uri Yosef from Messiah suggested the name. And I was very honored by his suggestion. So, I accepted Geulah as my Hebrew name. Many choose another name, too. I didn’t. Geulah says it all.
Peace be with you,
Grethel “Gretta”
Correction: Uri Yosef from Messiah Truth
Dr. Brown,
I will not engage in a battle with you. However, I will provide a few small examples of things “presented in a totally misleading way”.
Soulforce does not “tell you what you can and can’t believe”. No more than does the Catholic Church, the Seventh Day Adventists, or the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
This one is clever. This doesn’t make a claim but implies one: that we all take marching orders from some agenda laid out in Kirk and Marshall’s book, After the Ball. (Incidentally, I’m one of the very few gay people who have actually read the book)
The accusation of GAY AGENDA is implied rather than stated. But your implication is as dishonest as if you said it outright.
From the article Gretta linked:
This goes beyond “totally misleading” to downright untruthful. Yes, gay celebrations do generaly have drag. But then are NOT “commenly marked by” nude parades, open sex acts, or large signs proclaiming “God is gay”. I don’t doubt that there have been some nude person somewhere or some sign saying God is Gay. But they are not typical of gay celebrations at all.
You see, Dr. Brown, I can tell you from personal experience that this is false. I’ve been to gay pride events ranging from Los Angeles, which is flamboyant and edgy, to Fresno, which is ernest and oh so very sincere. I’ve actually sat on committees that laid out the rules for parade participation wherein nudity and certain language was banned. I know that the largest participants in most parades are the churches, followed by the public service groups such as AIDS services.
I don’t doubt that you can find sex acts at something like the Folsom Street Fair - an event that isn’t gay specific. But certainly not more than one might find at Mardi Gras.
So to characterize gay events in such a way goes far beyond spin or misrepresentation. The intent is demonization of “the enemy” with the “gay activist” (i.e. any gay person that is ok with being gay) being defined as enemy.
And, finally
That is totally misleading, to use your words. I don’t object to your opinion or your “stance”. I do object to your claims, your tactics and your unwillingness to acknowledge them as they are.
But what I object more, Dr. Brown, is that in the above statement you set me out to be your enemy. You engage in your culture war and lob missiles at me about what I think and what I believe.
Sorry, Dr. Brown. I’m not going to fight.
And you needn’t justify away all of your statements. I really don’t care. I just want you to realize that what you are claiming offense about is what you dish out on a regular basis.
I am hoping that being on the receiving end might encourage you to reconsider your own tactics.
Timothy,
Thanks for your comments. Since you say you don’t want to “fight” I guess I will have to end the dialogue here. (I did not intend it to be a fight.) If at any point you’d like me to interact further with you, I’d be glad to do so.
For the sake of other bloggers, however, I will respond to one point, namely, the issue of the Soulforce Equality Riders. Their intent was to go to Christian schools and to protest their convictional policy of not allowing practicing homosexuals in the schools. Others related to Soulforce working in California have sought to have certain Christian schools lose their accreditation because of their Christian convictions. Similarly, the European Union has threatened to take Poland to court for its policy of not wanting homosexual curricula taught in their children’s schools. The list could be multiplied ad infinitum. Do most gay men and women even know about these things? Probably not. But there are activists who do have specific goals in mind, and some of those goals include the removal of my right to practice my faith before God — at least as it affects homosexual issues.
As for setting you out to be my enemy, that was not my intent, and if I did that in my post, I certainly apologize.
As for my being on the receiving end — that’s the norm for me, being called a Nazi, member of the KKK, brainwashed Bible bigot, and a host of other epithets on a regular basis. Your post is gracious and tame in comparison.
Again, should you ever want me to interact with you on why I stand by the statements that you cited in your post, let me know and I’ll be glad to do it — not for the purpose of fighting but for the purpose of constructive interaction.
Michael
Grethel,
Yes, my friend Uri Yoseph at Messiah Truth! They have many pages devoted to me.
I also save a seat for him when I debate rabbis in the greater NY area.
I know that you see many different strands of belief in the NT, but for me, all of them speak the same message, reinforcing the same truths — only with different emphases and purposes. And the same Jesus who spoke against being judgmental also spoke against sexual impurity in the strongest possible terms — more strongly than anyone else in the whole Bible — and further underscored God’s design for marriage being male-female union.
Jesus welcomes all to come and be changed, not to come and remain the same, and he urges us to enter the straight and narrow way, telling us that the broad way is the way to destruction.
If you’d like to receive the materials, send a note to http://www.icnministries.org where it says “Contact Us” and just tell them I offered to send you the DVD on Can You be Gay and Christian. If you’re interested in hearing more about Jewish faith in Yeshua, put that in the note too.
Dr. Brown
Michael Brown said in post 72941:
the issue of the Soulforce Equality Riders. Their intent was to go to Christian schools and to protest their convictional policy of not allowing practicing homosexuals in the schools.
No, this is incorrect. Soulforce Equality Riders go to schools where they are invited by students (and sometimes administrators), engage in discussions about glbt issues with students and administrators. Sometimes, this outreach work involves demonstrations as a way to reach people. Mostly it involves engaging in dialogues with students, faculty and staff.
Others related to Soulforce working in California have sought to have certain Christian schools lose their accreditation because of their Christian convictions
Who are these “others”? How exactly are they related to Soulforce? What school(s) have had their accreditation challenged and what specific reasons where given?
Have you even been in contact with members of Soulforce? Ever spoken with one of the Equality Riders? If not what is the source of your claims about them?
Ken - Your definition of invited seems different than mine as applied to an institution. Students can invite people to visit them on campus but they cannot speak for an institution. The routes are announced by Soulforce and then school administrators decide how to deal with the issue. As an example, a student in one of my classes may want to invite a special speaker but I am under no obligation to allow the speaker to speak when the person shows without my approval.
Please provide substantiation of this claim
And also of this one
Sure there are “activists” who want all sorts of things. Fred Phelps is an “activist” who has an agenda. Some Christian “activists” want to legislate a death penalty for homosexuality.
But I don’t assume that you share their beliefs. Nor do I, in my writings or my speaking, bring up such examples to broadly paint all Christians by association.
But the claims you are making in the context of the site suggests that these beliefs you are ascribing to these “activists” are in some way typical or telling. It implies that some sizable segment of the gay community - or at least of those who use activism as a means of acheiving change - wish to remove accreditation for Christian schools and to force you to change how you practice your religion.
I simply request that you prove that these claims have merit, or that you reconsider making such claims until you have investigated them to see whether they are reflective of the gay community at large.
Surely anyone who values honesty is willing to do so.
Ken,
Yes, I’ve interacted personally with one of the Soulforce Equality riders, and some of my colleagues spoke with a good part of their team. They came to campuses where the administration told them they were not welcome, yet they chose to come anyway.
There is much more to the story that is not reported on their website.
Michael
Ken,
I too think you’re mistaken on Soulforce. They set out to do civil disobedience similar to the freedom riders.
I see a different Jesus that you do, Dr. Brown. And the only one that can determine whose view is correct is HaShem, the True Judge. I see a rabbi. You see a messiah.
I’ll contact to get the material from you so that I can hear your view firsthand.
But, what about my invitation? Would you like to come to a conference, meeting, or a GLBT friendly church? You have invited GLBT and gay-friendly clergy to your presentation. Shouldn’t you also be willing to come if invited?
As I said before, I can talk to people who can arrange it.
And, as far as a church goes, you can come to the one that my girlfriend and I attend together. It isn’t far off the beaten path; it is right of the interstate to be exact.
Shoot! Why not come to synagogue, too?
My synagogue’s doors are always open and we do welcome non-Jewish guests.
BTW, not interested in hearing about “Yeshua.” Thank you, any way. You should remember me. Pastor Michael Brown’s fellowship was where I was a member. Now, I am committed to the Jewish community and the faith that Jesus followed–Judaism.
Shalom and blessings,
Grethel
Timothy,
Your point is well taken, and I appreciate you raising it.
One of my friends is the academic dean at a major school in CA, and he informed me of accreditation issues raised against his school by a major leader associated with Soulforce. Let me see how much he’s willing to disclose publicly.
As for the activists of whom I speak, from my perception they are not of the Fred Phelps ilk, and that’s what concerns me. For example, when Ake Green was arrested for preaching in his own church pulpit that homosexuality was sinful, the conviction was only overturned by the Supreme Court of Sweden. (Friends of mine were involved in fighting his case, so I had a good amount of details.)
Soren Andersson, who heads up the Swedish federation for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights (RFSL) agreed with the verdict, stating that religious freedom was not a valid excuse for offending people. As he said to journalists, “I cannot regard the sentence as an act of interference with freedom of religion.” Where does this end?
Again, I cite this as one example, and as far as I can tell, whereas the vast majority of evangelical Christians — including activists — are absolutely appalled by the Fred Phelps stuff and utterly denounce it, I don’t hear groups like the HRC and NGLTF and others denouncing the arrest of Ake Green. And since I read a good amount of primary literature (meaning, in this case, gay literature by gays), I’m getting things straight from the horse’s mouth.
Now, I have never said that these things are “reflective of the gay community at large”; I’ve said that they are reflective of gay activists and their organizations, but it’s possible that a good portion of the GLBT supports their aims, but I say “possible” and nothing more.
As an insider in the GLBT community, do you feel that my statements are that inaccurate or unreasonable? If so, could you show me where the outcry is in the gay community over these things?
Thanks,
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown,
What has your experience been like with PFLAG groups?
I have questions about Soulforce, myself. I like some of the material but I do see red flags in areas. These red flags do make me uncomfortable. There’s proper ways of activism. And activism should never cross the line of justice and compassion. Activism should be for Tikkun Olam–not to cause harm.
Shalom,
Grethel
Warren said in post 72955:
Ken - Your definition of invited seems different than mine as applied to an institution.
I didn’t say students were representing the colleges when they invited the Equality riders. I was merely pointing out that the riders didn’t just show up at a college and start protesting as Dr. Brown implied. They were asked to come by someone associated with the college. The goal is to open a dialogue about glbt bias on campus and get people to see a different perspective.
Generally, this involves free form discussions in a location on campus where students congregate. In some cases (usually if the administration tries to prevent them from talking to students), there may be a demonstration or protest. Sometimes (rarely from my understanding) these demonstrations may get some of the riders and local students arrested.
As an example, a student in one of my classes may want to invite a special speaker but I am under no obligation to allow the speaker to speak when the person shows without my approval.
To speak in your class, no. However, if you object to that speaker, does that mean you can deny the student the ability to have him wait outside your class to talk to the students after class?
Dear Mr. Brown,
I’m having a hard time understanding how you could ever expect people at the receiving end of Ake Green’s tongue to stand up and defend him - here are a just a few things Ake Green said in the sermon that got him into trouble:
From a Washington Post article: “There, the 63-year-old clergyman delivered a sermon denouncing homosexuality as “a deep cancerous tumor in the entire society” and condemning Sweden’s plan to allow gays to form legally recognized partnerships.
“Our country is facing a disaster of great proportions,” he told the 75 parishioners at the service. “Sexually twisted people will rape animals,” Green declared, and homosexuals “open the door to forbidden areas,” such as pedophilia.”
And you seriously wonder why gay people aren’t jumping up to defend this person????? When you can show me an example of someone who speaks as strongly or vehemently against Evangelical Christians who they also stand up and support as having the right to say what they’ve said, then maybe we can talk. But when you bring up a case, overseas where the laws are different and in some instances much stricter, and in which the person who said these things was exonerated, AND when you try and compare this with Fred Phelps, it sounds more like you’re trying to further an agenda than discuss fairness and freedom of speech.
Dr. Brown,
I just emailed a request for the info you are willing to send me.
Have you had any contact with GLBT Jewish organizations?
http://glbtjews.org/
Have you ever heard of the EcoRebbe?
Have you also heard of K’vod Habriot and Rabbis for Human Rights?
Shalom,
Grethel
Timothy Kincaid said in post 72971:
I too think you’re mistaken on Soulforce. They set out to do civil disobedience similar to the freedom riders.
Equality Riders are a group within Soulforce that deals with homophobia on campus. Their focus is on discussion, not disobedience.
See my previous response to warren for a bit more detail.
Dr. Brown,
I just want to make myself clear. I DO NOT believe that what happened to Ake Green was fair or just, but the language he used with regard to gay people wasn’t respectful, kind, compassionate, fair or just either. Should he have been threatened with jail time for his words - Absolutely not - However, let’s not pretend that the words he used to describe gay people such as “pervert” weren’t inflammatory. And, I think it speaks somewhat well of the system that he was eventually acquitted.
Ken - You are going to need to document your claims. They run counter to everything I have known about this effort, including some early discussion with two of the riders. Here is the news release for the 2007 ride. In 2006, they went on to campuses which did not want them there and were arrested. Civil disobedience was part of the plan as they were based on the freedom rides as TImothy said.
The ERiders had discussions in advance with CCCU schools and so the schools knew they were coming. But they knew in advance also that they were not welcome on some of the campuses and showed up anyway.
Dr. Brown’s original statement regarding the ride is correct and a quick read of the Soulforce website will verify it.
Regarding Ake Green, from the Washington Post article Jayhuck referenced (thanks, said me the trouble of looking it up :)):
With these words, which the local newspaper published at his request, Green ran afoul of Sweden’s strict laws against hate speech.
the last paragraph says he had invited the press to attend that sermon. So it seems to me he was deliberately trying to get arrested in order to challenge the law. Why is it you didn’t think this aspect needed to be mentioned in your recounting of Green’s case Dr. Brown?
From the EqRide website:
Homophobia is globally pervasive, and no community or school escapes its reach. In 2006, during the inaugural Equality Ride, participants traveled to nineteen schools and engaged students, faculty, and administrators in conversation about the damaging effects of homophobic doctrine, the false notion that lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender identities are sick and sinful.
The riders went to place where they disagreed with the school’s policies and said essentially, you are wrong and we are here to tell you so. Why else would they go?
Dr. Brown
I really can’t answer to Sweden and its laws on offensive language. I live in the United States and delight in our nation’s First Amendment. That some gay group in Sweden has Swedish values doesn’t much surprise me; nor should it you.
But rather than iterating a list of every grievance that has been enacted on Christians by gays somewhere in the world, and vice verse (and let me assure you my list would be much much MUCH longer and much more horrific), let’s get back to our basic point.
Can you agree not to smear gay people based on what someone somewhere in the anti-gay industry has told you? Can you agree not to use singular incidents on a foreign continent as some evidence of American gay attitutes? Can you try and genuinely get to know gay people as people, and not as some enemy to be destroyed?
Really, Dr. Brown, we’re human. And, just like you, we don’t want to be lied about. Or insinuated about. Or accused of wanting to restrict your religion based on some event in Europe (which, incidentally Green prevailed). Or accused, really, of anything.
The world doesn’t need to be warned about how evil we are or how we want to destroy society or what horrid secret nasty things we do. Those claims are not true and, frankly, as more people get to know us they don’t reflect well on those who make them.
I think if you stepped back from the cannon and tried to get to know us, you might find that gay people are exactly like you. We have the same goals, desires, need, and dreams. We have the same faith, patriotism, loyalites, and values.
We don’t hate Christians; many of us are Christians. We don’t hate heterosexuals; they are our families and friends. We don’t want to destroy marriage, we want to join it. We don’t want to silence others; we want our voices to be heard.
We have much much more in agreement than in disagreement.
Oh, yes. I forgot. We also all agree that Warren should never dress up in an elf costume.
Grethel,
If I was invited to give a presentation at any of the places you mentioned, I would do it in heartbeat, schedule permitting. So, let me know if there’s an invitation for me to present my views in an open setting, and I’ll see what we can work out.
Dr. Brown
Timothy,
I do think our dialogue here is generating more light than heat, so thanks for sticking with it.
So that you can understand where I’m coming from, my issue is with an activist agenda that is coming my way, whether I like it or not. That’s why I raise my voice. When it affects what my grandkids could be taught in school, or what my students have to deal with in the place of business, or what the courts impose on a society, I’ll get involved.
But my heart is totally with you in terms of caring for individuals, not demonizing a whole community, reaching out to individuals. Here in Charlotte, I reached out to a key gay leader and had lunch with him a couple of times and stay in e-contact with him; I reached out to others but they declined to get back in touch with me; I speak against homophobia to pastors and help them to get past stereotypes of gays and lesbians; I have read so much gay literature that I can feel the pain and rejection and misunderstanding as if I were in your shoes (to an extent, of course).
I know that you certainly can’t reconcile what I’m saying here with my activism, but perhaps as you watch my work more closely you can also hear my heart.
One reason that I held the forum at our church on “Can you be gay and Christian?” was to break down walls and remove the stigma of interacting with the GLBT community, also sending the message clearly that “We don’t hate you!”
Will I stand against gay activism? Certainly. Will I do everything in my power to reach out to the larger gay community in love? By God’s grace, yes.
Again, thanks for taking the time to interact.
Dr. Brown
Jayhuck,
We agree, then, that the arrest was wrong, which was my point. Far less inflammatory speech in different countries — including America — has been punished by the law.
Thanks also for pulling out some of the most inflammatory quotes. I need to check the original text again, however, since the edition I have says, e.g., “Sexual abnormalities are a deep cancerous tumor in the entire society. The Lord knows that sexually twisted people will rape the animals. Not even animals can avoid the fiery passion of man’s sexual lust. Even this [bestiality], some will pursue. For many years, I have heard stories like these from people when I sat and listened as a volunteer telephone counselor. This wasn’t just one incident where people told of the animal [sexual] relations they had had — which had given them satisfaction. So it is abundantly clear that God is not writing a book of fairy tales for people to think of these things. He writes it with the thought in mind that people will act this way when they abandon God. Because of these sins, the land will vomit out its inhabitants.”
So, he was referring to a number of sexual sins spoken against in Leviticus 18, which include incest, bestiality, male homosexual acts, among a couple of others. Again, I’ll check the accuracy of each of the quotes, just for the record.
I’m not defending his sermon in every detail, just the issue of the lack of freedom of speech behind his pulpit. I believe he also spoke with some compassion for individuals as well — not that that would offset the other language — but I don’t think any balancing statements he made were quoted widely by the media.
Dr. Brown
Hello all…
I was asked by someone involved with this discussion to add a personal perspective to the Equality Ride.
As a personal note: I have been a Christian for many years and the Soulforce Equality Ride was–perhaps surprisingly–the only LGBT group I have ever been involved with. For me, activism/advocacy was never that big of a deal.
My decision to go on the Equality Ride was not to change a school’s policy–I was already attending, and about to graduate from, a college that took no issue with my orientation. I didn’t set out to force churches, or even individuals, to change their beliefs. In all honesty, the school policy of Northwest Nazarene or the personal belief of Jane Student won’t effect my life very much.
I do know, however, that it took me many years to wrestle with the messages I received from my church growing up. Messages that said being gay–something I had no control over–was sinful. Messages that lumped me–15 year old me–in with criminals. I almost lost God. And going to a secular institution, too many of my friends had.
I went on Equality Ride ultimately to be a voice to gay and transgender students across the country who were questioning their worth before God. And in every city, I met them.
The routes for the ride were chosen by the Soulforce young adult leaders based on a combination of outreach from students and community members, prior communication with the school, and feedback from the administrations on the ride. Some schools responded positively, some schools responded neutrally, some schools responded negatively. Be that as it may.
I joined the ride in January and spent the intervening six weeks working with administrators (who were thankfully very cooperative) at Pepperdine to plan activities. These activities included worship services, presentations by Pepperdine faculty and pastors, presentations by Equality Riders, lunch and dinner discussions, class visits, and even a trip to an LA museum.
Does the official policy at Pepperdine look any different after our two days there? No. Was it a productive day for all parties involved? Absolutely. I took away so much from my interactions on that campus and that was only one stop!
Unfortunately, not all administrations were as cooperative as Pepperdine and I remember the frustration my friends went through as admins passed them around from one department to another, took messages that went unreturned, or flatly said “Don’t even try talking to us again.” Nonetheless, they planned meet-and-greets at local coffee shops, community centers and churches. There were dinners, frisbee games, Bible studies and discussion groups.
It is easy to dismiss the Equality Ride as a “protest” but “protracted discussion” is really a more accurate description. I had more conversations–not arguments–in those two months than I ever imagined possible.
Warren asks:
The riders went to place where they disagreed with the school’s policies and said essentially, you are wrong and we are here to tell you so. Why else would they go?
For me, it was never to say “you are wrong.” It was to ask, “What do you believe?” because the schools, and individuals all differ in their approaches to Scipture and their positions on homosexuality. It was to ask “What would it look like to be a gay student here?” It was to brainstorm ways to create safe spaces. It was to be a catalyst for discussion within the school. It was to engage in a sought after dialogue.
I believe, if I may be so bold as to speak for my fellow riders, that we go because something has gone terribly wrong in our society. Parents are kicking their children on to the streets. Youth are killing themselves. And all of this is thought to be ordained by God.
I would hope that most pastors would agree that abandoning your child is not what God wants and would counsel a gay or transgender youth to not commit suicide, but we cannot escape these grim realities. And so the Equality Ride offers a new approach. Instead of talking points, and soundbites, and political strategy, and coordinated lobbying the Equality Ride proposes talking with instead of talking at.
Often administrators who, even though at the end of the day they were still anti-gay, said that they were blessed by our presence because it got them talking about something which is not talked about enough and got them thinking about things they don’t often think about. I’m not sure how many “minds were changed” on any given day but I know that countless conversations were started where before there was only silence, misunderstanding, and judgement.
The results are much easer to articulate for schools which allowed us on to campus–while still maintaining their positions–but what about the schools that simply said “No. We don’t value this discussion and we don’t value the perspective you bring to the table.” Why go anyway?
For me, it was because this conversation was too important not to have. Because in all likelihood there is a gay student on that campus who is watching as his school refuses to even *speak to* “those types of people” and she is wondering what that means about her.
In my two months on Equality Ride, we never once set out to “protest” a school’s policy. When a school, like Wisconsin Lutheran, for instance, refused to allow us to come on to campus, we did go anyway. When administrators asked us to leave, 6 young adults stayed to continue conversations with students that had congregated. Two separate groups of over 30 students each were in the middle of discussions when police arrived and countless more were looking on. Before I left the campus a student hugged me with tears in her eyes and said “I wish it didn’t have to come to this.” Her professor, with whom I was also speaking said “I don’t understand why they are arresting your friends, I don’t see what purpose this is serving.” I admit, I asked myself the same question.
Shouting matches aren’t solving any problems and they are tearing families, communities, churches, and this country a part. I want to have dialogue, I want to seek reconciliation–whatever that might look like–and many, many other people desire that as well.
Yes, the Equality Riders sometimes faced arrest. Yes, they were sometimes met by bull-horning toting protesters. Yes, the buses were vandalized. I don’t believe that any of us ever set out to protest. We set out to have conversations–to share our stories, to learn about other stories, to dialogue on faith, to create community–and we were relentless in that pursuit because it is so so necessary.
I saw great value in my conversations–even, perhaps especially, conversations with individuals coming from a completely different perspective than my own. I feel blessed by the positive feedback administrators gave us along the way and I’m hopefully that administrators in the future will continue to see the value of including the voices of LGBT individuals in the discussion of LGBT issues.
That was long and probably rather rambly. I hope it clarified the intentions of the ride and gave a bit of an insight into what happens on the road.
Blessings,
Brian
Our institution was informed by the Equality Ride that we were on their route. It was up to the university to decide how to respond to the fact that ER would be coming to the campus to protest what they believed were anti-gay policies. Also, the ER folks were nonviolent protesters interested in media coverage of the event, which is understandable given their stated purposes. They were also open to discussion of the issues in informal venues.
We just want to live. We are the strangers among you. And God did say, “Justice, justice shall you pursue.” Do not oppress the stranger. Is this not what God wants? What do the Prophets say?
There are six things recorded in Proverbs that God hates and seven that are detestable. None of these, Dr. Brown, are homosexuality.
Dr. Brown, if you are a follower of Jesus than you should know about how Jesus spoke to the Samaratian woman at the well, about his teaching of the good samaritian, about his teaching of the greatest commandment, and about his actions toward the woman caught in adultery. Right?
All of these show a different picture of Jesus that you have stated to me in regard to his teachings about homosexuality, sexual immorality, and etc.
Shalom,
Grethel
Dr. Brown,
I’m not defending his sermon in every detail, just the issue of the lack of freedom of speech behind his pulpit. I believe he also spoke with some compassion for individuals as well — not that that would offset the other language — but I don’t think any balancing statements he made were quoted widely by the media.
I would hope not because the only person who defended his sermon in every detail was Fred Phelps. Fred, in the article I posted above, apparently praised this preacher for his words.
AND, let’s not forget two very important things that Timothy pointed out: This didn’t happen in America and the man was acquitted.
If this man wants to use the word “perverts” and “compassion” in the same sentence, that is fine, but my guess and hope is most of the world would stop listening. I didn’t hear any sort of compassion in his words.
Dr. Brown.
Let me speak to the PFLAG regional director who is a friend of mine. Would you be willing to have those of different view question you? And would you be willing to have others also share who have a different view?
How may he contact you?
Shalom,
Grethel
Dr. Brown,
Will I stand against gay activism? Certainly. Will I do everything in my power to reach out to the larger gay community in love? By God’s grace, yes.
I’m curious what you mean by this? Do you mean that you will prevent gay people from having the same rights as you - that you will prevent gay people from marrying the person they love? Do you mean you will seek to keep gay people being treated as second-class citizens? Do you mean that you will seek to keep gay kids from being protected from bullying and harassment in schools? Because if this is what you mean by reaching out to the gay community in “love”, I can tell you, the community doesn’t need more of that kind of love.
Warren said in post 73052:
Ken - You are going to need to document your claims.
Most of my information comes from Brian Murphy one of the 2007 riders who spoke at Carnegie Mellon University last October (whom I’ve e-mailed and asked to respond here). However, from the news release you cited (emphasis added):
Their mission: to open a dialogue about the painful consequences of discrimination and the religion-based prejudice that sustains it.
In the next paragraph Haven Herrin states:
“Our goal is to foster a conversation about LGBT people and faith. While such conversations are often marked by politics and divisiveness, we bring open minds and hearts to academic settings, where we hope for a genuine exchange of ideas.”
Now as I have stated and the press release points out, on campuses where the administration planned to block them from talking to the students, Equality riders have (did) use alternative means to get their message to the students, staff and faculty.
You also asked (post 73056):
The riders went to place where they disagreed with the school’s policies and said essentially, you are wrong and we are here to tell you so. Why else would they go?
Because gay students at those schools asked for there help in dealing with homophobia on campus.
Grethel,
Well, let’s think about what you wrote here:
1) Prov 6 lists seven sins that are an abomination (Hebrew, to`evah) in God’s sight. Interestingly, that is the same Hebrew word used to describe homosexual acts in Lev 18. So, that would indicate a moral equivalence.
2) I agree that the sins listed in Prov 6 are heinous, but that does not mean that sins not listed there are not heinous. Do I accept pedophilia because it is not listed in Prov 6?
3) Jesus exposed the sin of the Samaritan woman at the well by calling for her husband (she was not married but was living in sin); to the woman caught in adultery he said, “I do not condemn you, now go and sin no more” — not “Go and sin some more.”
4) Jesus also said the following: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell” (Matt 5:27-29). Another teaching of his was, “It is what comes from inside that defiles you. For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality [the Greek is plural], theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.” So, the Lord taught that all kinds of sexually immoral acts — which in biblical terms refer to any sexual act outside of male-female marriage — defile us.
I’m just quoting his words, words that I seek to live by — and words which apply to all kinds of sinful behaviors and not just sexual sins.
As for oppressing the stranger, in God’s sight and according to what is taught in His Word, am I oppressing you if I do not believe in same-sex marriages? What if two gay brothers wanted to marry and you frowned on that. Would you be guilty of oppressing them? And since we know that ancient Hebrew culture frowned on homosexual acts, do you think it’s inconsistent to quote the words of the Hebrew prophets to defend GLBT relationships today?
Having said this, I am not invading your private life; I am not attacking you as an individual created by God; and I actually spend a good amount of time helping Christians develop a compassionate hearts towards the GLBT community. But true love does not compromise moral convictions, and that’s where we have our divide.
Do I believe in loving my neighbor as myself? Absolutely, and that’s why I seek to speak the truth to you, even if you reject it, since I would want someone to speak the truth to me regardless of whether it was politically correct or not.
Shalom!
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown,
As for oppressing the stranger, in God’s sight and according to what is taught in His Word, am I oppressing you if I do not believe in same-sex marriages? What if two gay brothers wanted to marry and you frowned on that. Would you be guilty of oppressing them? And since we know that ancient Hebrew culture frowned on homosexual acts, do you think it’s inconsistent to quote the words of the Hebrew prophets to defend GLBT relationships today?
This is not about brothers marrying each other Dr. Brown. Those kinds of arguments are merely meant to distract from the debate at hand, which involves two unrelated consenting adults of the same sex who love each other and want to get married.
I think its valid to ask WHY some of the ancient Hebrews frowned on homosexual acts, what those particular people and acts were that they frowned on, and if any of that actually says anything about two homosexual people in a committed relationship today. There are many, many things in the Bible that we no longer adhere to today.
Absolutely, and that’s why I seek to speak the truth to you, even if you reject it, since I would want someone to speak the truth to me regardless of whether it was politically correct or not.
I can assure you, the gay community will continue speaking the Truth to you, even though you reject it
Shalom Grethel,
Of course I would gladly be questioned by those who differ and would welcome an equal time setting where others would share. I can be contacted through my website, as you did earlier.
Dr. Brown
Jayhuck,
So I can understand what you mean by civil rights and respond clearly, could you let me know what you would tell two gay brothers who wanted to marry. Do they have the civil right? Or a bisexual man who wanted to be married to both a man and a woman? I’m not being facetious, since real life cases, quite similar to this, are being discussed in courts in America and/or Europe, and I’m curious to see how far you would extend “civil rights.”
As for restriction of freedom of speech in America, how about workers in California being forbidden from using the term “natural family” since it was deemed to be hate speech? To date, the ruling has been upheld by the courts.
I look forward to your responses.
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown,
I have a Strong’s but I cannot find “homosexuality” listed in the condordance.
There are others who do not share your view about the Hebrew text. The best explaination that I have found online is from the EcoRebbe, Rabbi Gershon Caudill.
Here is his sharing:
HOMOSEXUALITY & THE HEBREW BIBLE:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html
I have not mastered Hebrew, yet. My college studies come first–Early Childhood Education with concentration in Special Education Associate degree.
I use memorization when I am offering communial prayer. But, my Rabbi is very well educated in Biblical Hebrew as well as other Jewish studies. He holds Bachelor of Hebrew Letters, a Master of Arts in Hebrew Letters, and a Doctor of Divinity. And he has over 25 years experience as a rabbi.
My Rabbi has also shared this very same view about the Hebrew Bible with me and others. As a matter of fact, he has spoken at a Love Welcomes All conference on this very subject. This is how I knew I could trust him to be the first one to tell that I am “gay.” He helped me find PFLAG because I needed support.
The question is would your belief keep me from marrying the woman that I love? To raise a family? And would your belief keep me from being here for her now because she really needs a good support system through a life crisis? {She’s has bipolar disorder. And I have Christians also helping me cope and are giving me support.}
And would your belief system keep you from helping someone like me who has never told their blood family about being gay after the family is told? {There are Christians who are here now for me whenever I am ready to tell my family; my synagogue family already knows.}
BTW, I have done research on children raised by GLBT for college studies. The research was done with a Pentecostal Evangelical classmate. She was opposed to the research topic but by the end realized that GLBTs can raise healthy, whole children.
Ah, but what did Jesus also teach about judging others and loving enemies? And how did Jesus speak to the Samaritan women? Did he call her names? Did he use stereotypes, prejudice, or bias?
Shalom u’ beracha,
Grethel
PS I will speak to my friend as soon as possible. I do not have his email address. But, I should see him on Sunday when I visit the church community that my GF and I associate with.
“And since we know that ancient Hebrew culture frowned on homosexual acts, do you think it’s inconsistent to quote the words of the Hebrew prophets to defend GLBT relationships today?”
Considering what I just shared from the EcoRebbe, can we be so sure that homosexual relationships as we understand them today was condemned? The passage you refer to is very unclear, Dr. Brown. And it is right in the middle of a section talking about pagan temple rituals. A pagan temple ritual us hardly anything like a committed relationship between two people who love each other.
I also believe and know that any Christian or Jewish GLBT would agree that marrying a sibling is not kosher, doesn’t matter straight or gay.
Shalom!
Michael,
(I’m going to call you by your first name - not out of disrespect but so that we can more closely see each other as people.)
I am gladdened that you have one gay activist acquaintance with whom you broke bread once. That is a start and many anti-gay activists never get that far. I strongly encourage you to meet more. You may become very surprised that your mental picture is not consistent with what you experience.
But I also want to propose a notion to you that you may at first find to be bizzare or abhorent, but be patient and think about it:
Michael, you do not have the right to construct a world in which some of the citizens are excluded. You do not have the right to eliminate gay people from schools, work, or society.
You may think it incredible that I make such a claim. But let’s look at it by examining another minority.
Suppose that your grandchild came to you and said, “Grandpa, my teacher said that Muslims are not evil”. Or you son said, “At my job they hired a muslim and I have to work with him. And they said that I couldn’t call him a towelhead and an infidel and tell him he’s going to hell”. Or suppose you were at a courthouse and, oh my goodness, the let the muslim couple get a marriage license.
None of these things are likely to shock you. Because although you believe the religion of Islam is not according to God’s plan and that those who reject Christianity to keep adherence to the teachings of Mohammed are rejecting God’s sacrifice of his Son, you honor the right of all people to practice their religion as they wish. You don’t believe they should be reviled in the workplace or that schools should say they are evil. You respect protections that keep others from targeting them and treating them poorly.
I challenge you to treat gay people at least as you would Muslims.
And ask yourself if these gay activists that are threatening you want anything other than what you would ask for. This activist agenda that is coming your way, is there anything on it that you would be willing to trade to their position. Would you give up what you want these activists to forego?
Though it may be hard to fathom, these activists are human. And American. And very very much like you. There are no “activists” and “non-activists” when it comes to gay people. You can’t say that you have compassion for non-activists when by activist you mean all gay people who believe in equality — which is pretty much all of us.
Now I know that you consider yourself to oppose homophobia and stereotypes. But, Michael, you immediately followed that claim with… a stereotype.
It may well suit you to think of me a in pain and feeling rejection and misunderstood. It becomes easier to pity me… and, of course, not see me as a real person.
I’m not in pain. I don’t feel rejected. I live in Los Angeles where frankly no one cares if I’m gay - including the Christian folk I run into. My work, my friends, my church, the places I eat and shop. No rejection. No pain.
I challenge you, Michael, not to come to us with your words of wisdom, or to tell us we can’t be Christian and gay, or your compassionate convictions. We aren’t looking for someone to speak “the truth” at us.
Come to us with your mouth closed and your ears open. Come to us to learn.
Because what you believe to be true about gay people seems to be very far from what we know to be true.
Dr. Brown,
two gay brothers who wanted to marry. Do they have the civil right? Or a bisexual man who wanted to be married to both a man and a woman?
These are all distractions Dr. Brown and you know it. We aren’t talking about incest or polygamy here, we’re talking about two unrelated consenting adults who love each other.
I would like to echo Timothy’s comments. The gay community has, for years, had people talking TO IT. Of course these people claim that what they are doing is out of love, but it amounts to pity and demeaning gay people. We don’t need more people talking TO US, we need people talking WITH us. Please do “come to us with your mouth closed and your ears open”. I’ll say this again because it bares repeating: The gay community doesn’t need more of what you call “Love”.
As for Natural Family - I’ve heard of the Natural Family Manifesto and about the courts decision in California regarding the two employees who kept putting up flyers in response to gay employees flyers. All I can say is that employers all across this country dictate to all of us what is appropriate speech and what isn’t in the workplace. This isn’t anything new Dr. Brown - its been going on for years. No one has real free speech in the workplace and they shouldn’t either. When people in this country are being taken to court or hauled to jail because they stood in the public square and talked about Natural Families then get back with me, until then don’t use the workplace as some sort of battleground for free speech - it isn’t and it never will be.
In a San Francisco Chronicle on the subject I read: “In this case, the court said, the two employees were not punished and were allowed to submit a reworded flyer.”
Michael Brown asked in post 73151:
Or a bisexual man who wanted to be married to both a man and a woman?
The same thing I would tell to a man who wanted to marry 2 women at the same time. Civil marriages in the US have evolved in to a partnership of TWO equal partners and not equipped to handle more than that. Further if he could devise an equitable, workable system to handle polygamous marriages that addresses the plethora of legal/logistic problems such marriage would create, I would be willing to consider it.
since real life cases, quite similar to this, are being discussed in courts in America and/or Europe,
Really, can you give me a reference for any US cases dealing with 2 brothers trying to marry? or a Bisexual man trying to marry both a man and a woman?
As for restriction of freedom of speech in America, how about workers in California being forbidden from using the term “natural family” since it was deemed to be hate speech? To date, the ruling has been upheld by the courts.
I’m assuming you are referring to “Good News Employee Associate v. Hicks” if not please cite the case you are referring to. This case is not about “hate speech.” It is about offensive speech (which is different) in the workplace. Nor have they been “forbidden” to use the term, “natural family.” They were told they couldn’t put up an anti-gay flyer on the bulletin board (or send similar material via e-mail).
Timothy,
Believe it or not, I’ve thought through the very things you have requested here, and my conclusions remain the same. Is it possible that you could enter my world and see why that is the case?
Let me try to explain for a moment: I grew up in a very liberal home where my organ teacher from the age of five was gay. Sometimes my family would visit him and his partner in New York City (back then they were called “fairies,” as you recall), and there was never anything considered wrong about it. As a believer in Jesus, I have been forgiven much and therefore find it easy to forgive others (or, to judge with mercy, as I have been judged with mercy). Also, the spouse of a very close friend of mine came out of homosexuality, and I accepted this person into my life like anyone else.
But I have no question whatsoever before God that His design and order and will is for opposite sex marriage and relationships, and to break down this order is ultimately destructive. I see GID as a genuine disorder needing help; I agree with the surgeons and psychologists who say that we should treat the mind and not the member; I see two mommies or two daddies as not being in the best interest of children; and again, according to Scripture, I see homosexual acts as being sinful in God’s sight, similar to adultery and fornication. (BTW, on a practical level in terms of the family structure, the new book by Dale O’Leary, One and One Woman, is worth reading.)
Why, then, should I want something contrary to God’s order put forth as ideal or as an alternative norm? You have your reasons for rejecting other orientations, such as necrophilia or pedophilia — we agree here! — and I have my reason for rejecting homosexual orientation as an equivalent of heterosexual orientation.
Do I tolerate hate speech? Not for a second. Do I stand by idly when the Fred Phelps of this world proclaim their venom? God forbid! But that does not mean that I abandon my moral convictions, regardless of how those convictions appear to you.
As for all my posting here online, remember that in this particular instance, I have been replying from the start: Warren asked me about the accuracy of comments wrongly attributed to me, then I’ve interacted with bloggers. I’m not coming in as the wise and compassionate answer man to set the record straight. I’m simply interacting with other posters here, and by God’s grace, I will continue to pursue many ministry endeavors outside of this blog, some of which include humanitarian work in countries like India (from whence I just returned), some of which include outreach to my own Jewish people, and some of which include addressing gay activism as it intersects with Christian values. Obviously, we will not be in harmoy here.
Also, my point about pain and rejection was not to claim that all gays suffer from this, but rather to say, “When I’ve read the books that speak of these things, I can really get into those people’s shoes.”
Lastly, for the record, I’ve interacted at some length with other gay activists, but the ongoing email, occasional lunch relationship has not happened as much as desired, although I will continue to pursue it. And on a daily basis, I interact with the GLBT community — especially while flying — so I certainly do not have some demonized view of a large and diverse group of people. My issue is with an activist agenda.
Michael
Grethel,
I’m more than aware of different opinions about what the Bible says, which is the main reason I earned a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Litertures — so as to study the Scriptures in depth on my own, without relying on anyone else’s commentary. It doesn’t make me right, but it certainly helps me come to firm conclusions.
I would encourage you to study carefully Robert Gagnon’s book on The Bible and Homosexual Practice. It is a fine work of scholarship and very accurate in its conclusions.
Dr. Brown
Jayhuck,
My question about two gay brothers was not meant as a distraction but as a desire to get into a qualitative discussion of why certain unions would be acceptable and others not. Would you be kind enough to answer whethere you would sanction two gay brothers getting married? And if not, why not?
Thanks,
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown,
So, what about those who do not have Ph.Ds. in Near Eastern Languages and Litertures?
The majority of Christians do not. So, what does this say? Can they not come to firm conclusions?
As for myself, when questioning I seek those very well educated in Hebrew in order to understand or clarify Torah and/or entire Tanach. And as I discovered there are words in Biblical Hebrew that scholars are unsure of what the words actually mean.
Why do you feel that Robert Gagnon gives a very accurate conclusion?
I also like to use critical thinking.
If I read over this book by Robert Gagnon, I would first ask who is this person? What are his beliefs? Why is he writing this book? What is his main point?
What view of the world does Gagnon have?
What data is given? What experiences are shared?
What evidence is given? What resources does he use?
Is his thinking justified according to what is given?
What techniques does he use to draw his audience into his material?
Does he use fallacies?
1st series of questions answered:
Robert A. J. Gagnon, associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
2nd: What Christian view of the world does he have?
Unsure. But is associated with, the Presbyterian Church.
Shalom!,
Grethel
Michael,
With all due respect, this is a most frustrating conversation. You do not respond to what we say but instead you talk over us as though we had said nothing at all.
You have started a game of “Yeah, But”.
Yeah but what about Ake Green. We answer that as being irrelevant to your claim about your religious freedoms in America, pointing out that this was Sweden and that Green won.
Yeah but what about the employees who wanted to put up anti-gay flyers. We point out that this is a workplace situation and that they were allowed to put up flyers that were not in opposition to other employees.
Yeah but what about somebody who somewhere might have wanted to marry their brother…
This is pointless. It is not conversation. It is not dialog. It is not communication.
And you may well note that no one else is feeding back the list of horrors that “Christians” have perpetrated on gay citizens. This sort of posturing does not increase communication, it breaks it down. It’s simply plugging your ears and shouting.
Listen to yourself. Seriously. In one sentence you say that you don’t stereotype or demonize. And in the next you do exactly that. You pride yourself that you oppose Phelps, but what you say has almost no discernable difference - or not to those hearing it. It is still untrue, a recitation of grievances that have nothing to do with any of us, and insinuation and accusation. So you don’t use the word “hate”. But Michael, that is NOT the great defining difference that you think it is.
We are not asking you to change your faith. We are not asking you to think gay couples to be acceptable to your religion. We are not asking you to accept the determinations of those in the mental health field that homosexuality is not “a genuine disorder needing help”.
We are asking you to stop making insinuations and accusations about some “gay activist agenda” that exists only in the minds of anti-gay activists. We are asking you to stop bringing false witness. We are asking you to stop taking what you read at CitizenLink and LifeSite and WorldNetDaily and thinking that these are truthful and accurate assessments of gay people, gay activists, gay “lifestyle”, or gay “agenda”.
Because, Michael, they are not. And when you continue to spread this dishonesty it seeps into your soul.
If you continue on this path I fear you are going to find yourself at some point like so many other anti-gays, willing to say anything or do anything no matter how bizzare of abhorent because fighting “the gay agenda” has replaced seeking God and truth.
We are simply asking that you listen. I’m fearing that listening is something that you are unwilling to do.
Timothy
Oh, and P.S. There has never been a time in the history of this country in which the term “fairies” was ever used in a non-pejorative way. If that’s how your family derided your music teacher, they were not a “liberal” as you suppose.
Timothy,
“Fairies” was used in my household in a cute way, and we sat in the home of this couple and hung out with them as if nothing was wrong. You don’t have to believe what I’m saying. (Also, to a five year old, “fairy” did not have a pejorative meaning.)
As for the frustrating nature of this conversation — yes, I feel the same on my end. As I sit here typing at my computer, I’m looking at a wall of books on gay issues, the vast majority written by GLBT authors, so I’m not relying on WND and Citizen Link and other sources. I believe there is an activist agenda because I read the words of GLBT activists, and I can’t ignore Matt Foreman of the NGLTF when he states, ““You want to know the state of our movement on November 10, 2006? We are strong, unbowed, unbeaten, vibrant, energized and ready to kick some butt. . . . The agenda and vision that we must proudly articulate is that yes, indeed, we intend to change society.”
I cannot ignore Mel White when he writes, “Jesus said, ‘Love your enemies.’ Love demands that we quit cooperating with those who oppress us. It is time for a campaign of relentless nonviolent resistance that will convince our adversaries to do justice at last. They have assumed that we are infinitely patient or too comfortable to call for revolution. For their sake, and for the sake of the nation, we must prove them wrong.”
What exactly does this “revolution” mean? Is there no “agenda” behind it? Is Matt Foreman using a non-existent word? You might agree with every one of the goals — that’s not the issue; the issue is whether there are certain activist goals that directly impact my life, and the answer is yes.
Look, Catholic Charities is now out of the adoption business because MA would not give them a religious exemption to not place children in same-sex parented households. Is that something you smile upon?
And the very fact that you could call something referring to the “natural family” anti-gay means that the primary measure of right and wrong is based on what is right in your eyes. Justice, it would appear, only goes one way.
And when you say that there’s very little to separate me from Fred Phelps, I can only wonder how honestly you are evaluating my words. If the failure is in how I’m communicating, I certainly apologize. If the failure is the grid through which you’re hearing things, then that’s something for you to consider.
In any case, if our paths cross, it would be great to sit and talk face to face. And if you feel that it would be fruitful to continue this interaction and time permits, then I’m happy to do so.
Michael
Grethel,
Of course, all of us have certain presuppositions, and honest scholarship study does its best to work past those and engage the texts in the most objective way possible. Ultimately, God is the final Judge as to how we do.
As for Gagnon’s book, in my view, he is remarkably objective, which is why some leading pro-gay scholars have praised his work. That’s why I recommend it.
Dr. Brown
Dr. Brown,
Show me two gay brothers who want to get married and then we can talk.
As I sit here typing at my computer, I’m looking at a wall of books on gay issues, the vast majority written by GLBT authors, so I’m not relying on WND and Citizen Link and other sources. I believe there is an activist agenda
What is the gay activist agenda? Are we once again talking about having equal rights? If that is what is meant by “changing society”, and I think it is, I think most gay people would be on board with this idea.
BUT - by changing society we don’t mean to diminish it. Just as Timothy said above, all we want is to be treated as humans, adults and people who deserve respect and the same rights as everyone else. We aren’t asking ANYONE to change their beliefs or their faith, just to give us “a place at the table”.
By the actions of some Evangelicals I have to wonder if they get some kind of good feeling by keeping gay people subjugated . Does it make Evangelicals feel better about themselves to keep a minority they don’t approve of from having the same rights as they do? Until the playing field is level, and gay people have the same rights as their straight neighbor, I’m not sure we can be having much of a successful conversation at all.
Regarding Robert Gagnon:
I would recommend everyone start out reading a small article titled “Can We Talk? Homosexuality and the Christian Faith: A discussion series based on articles from the Christian Century”.
Read the Article Here
You will find writings by all the following authors, as well as some good criticisms of Robert Gagnon by Walter Wink.
“To Hell with Gays?” by Walter Wink, June 5-12, 2002
“Gays and the Bible,” by Robert A. J. Gagnon, August 14-27, 2002
“A More Perfect Union: Reservations about Gay Marriage,” by Dennis O‚
Brien, January 27, 2004
“Sanctified Unions: An Argument for Gay Marriage,” by Eugene F. Rogers
Jr., June 15, 2004
Walter Wink also responds to criticisms leveled at him by Robert Gagnon
Michael,
You are in Culture Warrior mode. Sadly I have to conclude that nothing I could possibly say can reach you.
I could tell you that the “agenda” of the gay community is to achieve equality under law. This would not stop you from seeing as a nefarious attack on you and your values.
I could tell you that the employee group was formed for the specific purpose of trying to display their dislike of gay fellow workers and to make their work environment unpleasant (as all the news sources agree). This would not stop you from seeing them as allies in a war on evil.
You see gay people - what you call activists - as being a threat to you. You have walled yourself off behind a high wall of “love the sinner” and are not approachable. You have a long list of “yeah, buts” ready to lob at anyone who tries to talk to you. You fire first and ask questions later… or never.
How can I respond? At this point I don’t even see how to reach you. How can I talk when you cannot go a single comment without ladening your speech with accusations and demonizations? With anecdote irrelevant to anything at all?
We often wonder how could people in times of war behave heinously. We have a hard time fathoming acts of attrocities. But these are understandable from a physchological perspective - when you view the other as your enemy you no longer have to view them as like you, a human.
And your culture war is tearing our nation apart. We are waging war on our neighbors, making ridiculous and cruel accusations, and detroying any hope of civility or finding common ground. It is in this culture that folks like Ann Coulter or Al Franken thrive. And I, for one, find it to be the antithesis of the message of Christ.
Michael, there is no doubt in my mind, and it is clearly confirmed to anyone reading this exchange, that you are not at all interested in knowing gay people as people. You do not see any place for gay people to coexist in the world with you.
And that is sad. Not for us, we’ll survive. The tide of history is on our side.
I hope and pray that some day you will be able to cease your combat, stop your insinuations and accusations, quit playing martyr, and let God’s grace heal you so you can see your fellow man as another child of God.
Timothy
Michael,
Please be encouraged - you are articulating just fine, even if it is not what others want to hear.
Timothy,
Be assured that I’m equally frustated in my ability to reach you.
Stil, I ask again, are you unable to see that there are two sides to this issue? That your battle for what you call equality directly impinges on my freedoms and values?
And my reason for citing additional anecdotes in each email is because you tell me that each one previously cited is irrelevant.
In any event, there are plenty of gay people I have interacted with in the last few years, very few of whom are activists, and they would be living proof that I seek to get to know them as people.
As for prayer for my “healing,” let’s both pray to the heavenly Father to do what He sees is needed in each of our lives, and let’s pray that we will both be open to that. And for whatever it’s worth, take a look at all of your posts and all of mine, and please identify each derogatory or accusatory comment I made about you as an individual — I’m talking directly to Timothy Kincaid, not the GLBT community at large — and then see what you’ve said about me. Perhaps this will prove to be an enlightening exercise for you (or other readers too).
Blessings on you,
Michael
Dr Brown,
I ask that you take a look at Timothy’s posts again as well. I think that exercise might be enlightening for you too.
Ann,
Please be encouraged - you are articulating just fine, even if it is not what others want to hear.
I could just as easily say the same thing to Timothy!
I don’t think Dr. Brown is listening to what Timothy and some of us are trying to say.
Michael,
Thank you for addressing me without some appeal to some anecdote. I think that makes it easier to communicate.
You believe that my appeal for equality infringes on your freedoms and values.
What then are we to do? If my equality cannot exist with your freedoms, then what?
In your perfect world, what would become of me?
Michael -
You stated:
“I see GID as a genuine disorder needing help”
I wasn’t sure how that fit in with the discussion of gays and lesbians…sometimes individuals see homosexuality as a form of gender identity issues, and I wanted to clarify to see if this is what you were relating it to. I wasn’t sure, and it’s better to ask than to assume.
Also…you stated:
“Look, Catholic Charities is now out of the adoption business because MA would not give them a religious exemption to not place children in same-sex parented households. Is that something you smile upon?”
It is indeed sad that Catholic Cha