The Dr. Phil Show on gender identity, Part 3 – Should puberty be delayed?

Near the end of the Dr. Phil Show on gender identity, two guests who were not on stage provided a mini-introduction to the controversy of using hormones to delay puberty. Dr. Jo Olson and Dr. Eva Cwynar are two prominent doctors who work in the field of gender disorders and endocrinology. And action!

From the Dr. Phil website, here is a rough transcript of their comments.

Dr. Phil turns to two more medical professionals in the audience. Endocrinologist Dr. Eva Cwynar says parents need to wait and see what happens with puberty and not give in to their child’s fantasy of wanting to become the opposite sex. Dr. Jo Olson, pediatrician with the Transgender Clinic of Children’s Hospital Los Angeles, says children are born this way, and she helps kids make the transition through hormone therapy.
“Dr. Olson, at what point do you begin that?” Dr. Phil asks.
“It’s a different process for each child. It’s really important to recognize that young people and their families come in at very different stages of this process. Many of the people we see have actually already gone through puberty, but we do have some patients who are young, in the 12- to 16-year-old age range as well,” Dr. Olson says. “However, I want to say that we don’t just provide hormone therapy for young people, and not all young people who want to transition get hormones. We have a multi-disciplinary approach in our clinic, where they are assessed by a psychologist who is extremely familiar with gender-questioning youth, gender identity disorder and the issues that these young people face, as well as the case manager who understands what these young people go through. And hormones are not the end of the story for every young person.”
“And you work with the family members as well. It’s not just something you do to the child in isolation,” Dr. Phil says.
“Absolutely, and we have many parents who experience this same kind of mourning,” she says, referring to Toni.
“Dr. Cwynar, do you think there’s ever a point when hormone-blocking therapy is appropriate?” Dr. Phil asks.
“I do,” Dr. Cwynar says. “I think that, as everybody mentioned before, there’s a spectrum of this transgender, and I do believe as well that gender is a definition between the eyes and not between the legs, and that there are certain chemical phenomena, chromosomal phenomena, that occur both in utero and as we develop that make us appear as one sex, but is actually a different sex. I prefer waiting through puberty to see what actually happens when the hormones kick in. There are situations where you have distress and suicidal ideations and because of that, hopefully the family will be there for the child to help them get through that process. So, I like to see the whole adolescence be complete, essentially, before I do anything permanent.”

This is among the most controversial of issues and one with which I have had some professional involvement. I will give one example and then some links from past blog posts which address similar gender identity concerns.
Among several similar cases, I recall a family in conflict where the mother wanted to delay puberty for a GID child but the father did not. In short, the child now post-puberty is strongly identified with the biological gender. Delaying puberty would have been a mistake and the earlier wish to consider it vanished. Other cases are not so clear cut and hence the controversy.
Here are some relevant links to past posts:
Two families, two approaches to gender preferences
Gender identity disorder research: Q & A with Kenneth Zucker
Ken Zucker compares ethnic identity conflict and gender identity conflict
APA issues statement regarding GID and the DSM-V
The Man Who Would Be Queen – Chapters 1 & 2
American Psychological Association comments on DSM gender identity issue
60 Minutes Science of Sexual Orientation: An update from the mother of twins
60 Minutes Science of Sexual Orientation mother of twins, part 2 (this 2 part series is highly recommended)

More on the Dr. Phil episode on gender identity: Reparative drive theory

I have some video clips of yesterday’s Dr. Phil Show on gender identity. In this segment, Toni, the mother of a three boys, one of whom is transgender, expresses strong disagreement with Dr. Joseph Nicolosi and Mr. Glenn Stanton. Prior to this clip, Nicolosi outlined his views on response to gender identity issues. From the Dr. Phil website:

“So, what is a parent to do?” Dr. Phil asks. “You’re at home with your little child, they don’t do what other little boys do — and I’m using a little boy as an example. It happens with girls too, but statistics say it’s about five to one boys over girls who have this, but what is a parent to do at that point? Their question is, ‘Do we support his interest, or do we say, “No, no, no. You can’t play with that. You must play with this”?’”
“We see certain patterns, very typical patterns, of an over-involved mother, where the mother and son have a symbiotic relationship,” Dr. Nicolosi explains. “It’s very close, their identities are merged, and the father is out of the picture, and the work that we’re doing is to get the mother to back off, get the father more involved, get that boy to dis-identify with the mother and bond with the father, and in the bonding with the father, he develops that masculine identity.”

Most therapists have encountered families like this. However, they often come in for reasons other than a child’s gender identity. As Dr. Siegel said in a later part of the show, there is no evidence that a mom being close with a son leads to gender identity problems.
In this clip, Nicolosi and Stanton lay out their view of what happens to create a son like Toni’s. Roll the tape for the segment.

If I am following the mother’s explanation, she says she was not close to her son and her fiance became close to him after she backed off. She also notes that she was a single mom to her first son who would be expected to be closer to mom. Apparently, that child has no gender identity issues. And she says, the fiance/father-figure was less involved after the boy transitioned to a female role, but very involved prior to the transition. She further says that she wasn’t enmeshed with him. In other words, the reparative theory predicts a certain constellation but this women disconfirms it.
As noted in my first post on this episode, no middle ground views were presented. Near the end of the show, two reseachers seated in the audience were given a chance to speak. This segment was too short. I hope to post the clip of that exchange in a future post.
For now, I want to point out again the problem with confirmation bias in thinking through highly controversial topics. In this clip, the comments presented by Nicolosi and Stanton were not consistent with the experience of the mother and this son. Is it possible she was in denial? Is it possible that the reparative theorist was in denial? Sorting through this is difficult since both mom and the psychologists have powerful incentives to seek evidence favoring their commitments and views. In an area, like this one, where the science is developing, I advocate a very loose hold on theoretical commitments.
While the scientist can and should take a critical stance, it is true that parents need advice now. I tend to favor waiting until puberty to make decisions about transitioning since the existing research indicates most children do not opt for transition after puberty. However, even that finding is not as clear as Dr. Phil presented. See this interview with Ken Zucker for more on persistence of GID into adulthood.
Stay tuned…

Gender identity disorder research: Q & A with Kenneth Zucker

As a follow up to the recent broadcasts by NPR and several posts regarding gender identity, here is a Q & A involving J. Michael Bailey and Ken Zucker recently posted on the SEXNET email list. Dr. Zucker is the Head of the Gender Identity Service, Child, Youth, and Family Program and Psychologist-in-Chief at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Dr. Zucker is the chair of the newly appointed Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders working group for the 5th edition of American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-V). Dr. Bailey is Professor of Psychology at Northwestern University, prolific sexual orientation researcher and moderator of the SEXNET list. As the NPR article noted, Dr. Zucker has extensive clinical and research experience with persons who experience gender dysphoria. This interview was conducted by Dr. Michael Bailey via email and has been slightly edited for posting here. Both Drs. Bailey and Zucker have reviewed and approved it.

Bailey: Both NPR shows used the phrase “a girl trapped in men’s bodies.” How common is this concern over body image?
Zucker: I would say that, in general, there has not been a lot of good empirical research on body image issues in pre-pubertal children with GID. In adolescence, the Dutch group has reported clear evidence of body image dissatisfaction as one finds in adults. One of my PhD students has a dissertation that should be defended later this year in which we studied body image in boys with GID compared to clinical and community controls. We did detect significant body image differences among the three groups: body image in general and in relation to gender-specific anatomic dysphoria. The boys with GID had a poorer body image in general and, of course, with regard to gender-specific anatomic dysphoria. It is only a first pass at this issue and I will report on this down the road after the dissertation is defended.
Bailey: The case on the second NPR show is of a child (natal boy) who had extreme temper tantrums when not allowed to engage in feminine behaviors. Is this common in the kids you see, or is there something unusual about these kids?
Zucker: This is not uncommon. Some parents will report that if they try to limit cross-dressing that this can be very distressing for the boys. Some parents describe it as “he needs his fix.”
Bailey: You are more familiar than anyone else I know with the difference between the British and Dutch treatment centers that yielded the findings that only 20% of the British kids but 100% of the Dutch kids pursued sex reassignment eventually. Did the Dutch center focus on older children (who were less likely to change their minds)? To the extent that the samples were comparable, it is a shocking difference in outcome.
Zucker: I don’t think the British group has published their data yet. But, yes, the Dutch group data are on adolescents and I think that the British group is talking about clients first seen in childhood, not adolescents. The Dutch group now has a paper that is close to being “in press” on their first follow-up of GID children and then followed up later. The GID persistence rate for their boys was about 20% and the persistence rate for girls was 50%. Their persistence rate for boys appears to be similar to what I have summarized for the boys seen in my clinic (Zucker, 2005), but higher than the 12% rate for girls that we published earlier this year (Drummond et al., 2008). The Dutch group speculates that their girls were, at initial presentation, more extreme in their cross-gender behavior than the girls that we reported on, but that will require more careful analysis.
Bailey: The NPR show, and some people on it, kept implying that some of these kids are “really” transgender, and others are not. I suspect you don’t agree with this way of thinking about it, although you recognize that some kids are more likely to become transgender adolescents and adults than other kids are. Can you remind us which factors are associated with persistence of GID from childhood?
Zucker: I don’t think we know yet. Two possible candidates are age at initial evaluation (later age associated with greater persistence rates) and quantitative metrics of cross-gender behavior in childhood.

By persistence rate, Dr. Zucker is referring to the percentage of GID children who are still GID at a later assessment. In the Dutch group, as well as in Dr. Zucker’s research sample, most boys who want to be girls in childhood, end up as men who do not want to be women. For women in the Dutch sample, half remain GID. I think the assessments of low persistence of GID provide some helpful information to parents who wonder about puberty delay and behavioral interventions with their GID children.
Thanks to Drs. Bailey and Zucker for permission to post this conversation.

National Gay & Lesbian Task Force questions the APA on DSM choices

There appears to be a growing schism within LGBT circles regarding the APA appointments of Kenneth Zucker and Ray Blanchard to the Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Work Group (see the APA statement here). Today, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force issued a press release calling Zucker and Blanchard “clearly out of step with the occurring shift in how doctors and other health professionals think about transgender people and gender variance.”
The APA and Jack Drescher has stepped up in favor of the appointments.
Thus far, to the best of my knowledge, the opposition has primarily been from transgender advocacy groups and writers. The press release stops short of calling for the appointments of Zucker and Blanchard to be canceled, but rather expresses disappointment. I wonder if any other advocacy groups will follow suit.