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	Comments on: Postcards from Phoenix: When Church Demands Obedience	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
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		<title>
		By: LJ Always		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112813</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LJ Always]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=37398#comment-112813</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112253&quot;&gt;sowellfan&lt;/a&gt;.

Well, don&#039;t forget that women are taught by the evangelical community that they must be submissive to practically everyone---husband, pastor, pastor&#039;s wife, male elders, women&#039;s ministry leaders, etc.  Regardless of what you believe about women and submission, this can (and has) opened the door to all kinds of abuse---spiritual, relational, physical and sexual.  Also, the fact that Grace Driscoll was trying to exert inappropriate control over Tiffany&#039;s friendships does not neatly fall into a violation of any of the ten commandments----so for Tiffany,  it wouldn&#039;t have been immediately obvious that something unbiblical and wrong was going on.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112253">sowellfan</a>.</p>
<p>Well, don&#8217;t forget that women are taught by the evangelical community that they must be submissive to practically everyone&#8212;husband, pastor, pastor&#8217;s wife, male elders, women&#8217;s ministry leaders, etc.  Regardless of what you believe about women and submission, this can (and has) opened the door to all kinds of abuse&#8212;spiritual, relational, physical and sexual.  Also, the fact that Grace Driscoll was trying to exert inappropriate control over Tiffany&#8217;s friendships does not neatly fall into a violation of any of the ten commandments&#8212;-so for Tiffany,  it wouldn&#8217;t have been immediately obvious that something unbiblical and wrong was going on.</p>
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		<title>
		By: otrotierra		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112276</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[otrotierra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2021 22:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=37398#comment-112276</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112275&quot;&gt;Mr Jesperson&lt;/a&gt;.

You raise a good point. Now that I think about it, a significant portion of Indigenous peoples initially resisted vaccination and some still do today. Unfortunately (though partially understandable), one consequence of the long documented record of actual mistreatment and exploitation of the Indigenous results in massive distrust of the U.S. government, which in turn results in conspiracy theories of their own that still circulate today.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112275">Mr Jesperson</a>.</p>
<p>You raise a good point. Now that I think about it, a significant portion of Indigenous peoples initially resisted vaccination and some still do today. Unfortunately (though partially understandable), one consequence of the long documented record of actual mistreatment and exploitation of the Indigenous results in massive distrust of the U.S. government, which in turn results in conspiracy theories of their own that still circulate today.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mr Jesperson		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112275</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr Jesperson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2021 22:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=37398#comment-112275</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112271&quot;&gt;otrotierra&lt;/a&gt;.

To be fair not all anti-vax people are evangelicals.  My wife is ex-Orthodox Russian and she is paranoid about pretty much all modern medicines.  And I am equally concerned about CRT and conspiracy theories on the left leading liberal Christians to a place of rioting and violence.  Some of those already involved in the violence for the last year do claim to be Christian as well.  But I see the Evangelicals as being more hypocritical for they want to spread the faith in Jesus Christ and yet many stand for things that are the opposite of His clear teachings.  Many on the left also stand for that which is the opposite but they are far less concerned, in general, in making more Christians.  My nephew is very into the conspiracy theories and he is not an evangelical.

I am concerned about violent spiritual forces that are seducing people on both extremes towards a civil war.  The war will only kill and destroy which is a price too high to pay for any kind of supposed good that may eventually come out of it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112271">otrotierra</a>.</p>
<p>To be fair not all anti-vax people are evangelicals.  My wife is ex-Orthodox Russian and she is paranoid about pretty much all modern medicines.  And I am equally concerned about CRT and conspiracy theories on the left leading liberal Christians to a place of rioting and violence.  Some of those already involved in the violence for the last year do claim to be Christian as well.  But I see the Evangelicals as being more hypocritical for they want to spread the faith in Jesus Christ and yet many stand for things that are the opposite of His clear teachings.  Many on the left also stand for that which is the opposite but they are far less concerned, in general, in making more Christians.  My nephew is very into the conspiracy theories and he is not an evangelical.</p>
<p>I am concerned about violent spiritual forces that are seducing people on both extremes towards a civil war.  The war will only kill and destroy which is a price too high to pay for any kind of supposed good that may eventually come out of it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: otrotierra		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112271</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[otrotierra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2021 12:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=37398#comment-112271</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112264&quot;&gt;Mr Jesperson&lt;/a&gt;.

You&#039;re so right. I&#039;m old enough to remember glimpses of the 1980s/1990s &quot;Satanic Panic&quot;--- opportunist Evangelicals spreading mass hysteria about kids and their rock music. A youth-pastor circulating a &quot;story&quot; back then comes to mind: &quot;Satanists&quot; were murdering teens on the outskirts of town. But the youth-pastor then needed account for why no families reported their missing children, no reporting from the two city newspapers, no accounts on record at the police department, not a word from first responders, nothing from coroners, and so on. For the &quot;story&quot; to be true, hundreds of people had to be lying. And only this one youth-pastor, having done no research himself, was the one telling the &quot;truth,&quot; thereby cultivating even more false outrage among Evangelicals.

Now skip forward to 2020: (1) Evangelical conspiracy theories deny the existence of COVID, resulting in numerous viral outbreaks and deaths of pastors and congregants alike. (2) Evangelical anti-maskers display their blatant disregard for the well-being of others. and (3) anti-vaccine Evangelicals are keeping the U.S. from ever reaching herd immunity, thereby continuing the spread of death. (4) Evangelicals raise almost $100k to support terrorist Kyle Rittenhouse, merely one matter against a backdrop of significant Evangelical support for (5) anti-Black police riots and state-sanctioned executions by police throughout the summer. Evangelicals supporting brutality and murder. 

Now to 2021: Significant numbers of Evangelicals support murderous police officer Derek Chauvin. And earlier in 2021: on January 6, decades of lies, falsehoods, and conspiracy theories combined with the bogus &quot;presidential election fraud&quot; accusations from November lead to the murderous failed coup attempt on January 6, with insurrectionists praying and waiving a &quot;Jesus 2020&quot; flag.      

Hell yes, frothing-at-the-mouth Evangelicals wedded to White Nationalism and authoritarian neo-fascism are manifesting a Gospel of Death, and they are indeed lusting for more violence and murder, thereby leading the U.S. into another civil war. They will certainly provoke more murder and violence as we approach 2024. And their cycle of lies, fear, and warmongering will not end until they are held accountable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112264">Mr Jesperson</a>.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re so right. I&#8217;m old enough to remember glimpses of the 1980s/1990s &#8220;Satanic Panic&#8221;&#8212; opportunist Evangelicals spreading mass hysteria about kids and their rock music. A youth-pastor circulating a &#8220;story&#8221; back then comes to mind: &#8220;Satanists&#8221; were murdering teens on the outskirts of town. But the youth-pastor then needed account for why no families reported their missing children, no reporting from the two city newspapers, no accounts on record at the police department, not a word from first responders, nothing from coroners, and so on. For the &#8220;story&#8221; to be true, hundreds of people had to be lying. And only this one youth-pastor, having done no research himself, was the one telling the &#8220;truth,&#8221; thereby cultivating even more false outrage among Evangelicals.</p>
<p>Now skip forward to 2020: (1) Evangelical conspiracy theories deny the existence of COVID, resulting in numerous viral outbreaks and deaths of pastors and congregants alike. (2) Evangelical anti-maskers display their blatant disregard for the well-being of others. and (3) anti-vaccine Evangelicals are keeping the U.S. from ever reaching herd immunity, thereby continuing the spread of death. (4) Evangelicals raise almost $100k to support terrorist Kyle Rittenhouse, merely one matter against a backdrop of significant Evangelical support for (5) anti-Black police riots and state-sanctioned executions by police throughout the summer. Evangelicals supporting brutality and murder. </p>
<p>Now to 2021: Significant numbers of Evangelicals support murderous police officer Derek Chauvin. And earlier in 2021: on January 6, decades of lies, falsehoods, and conspiracy theories combined with the bogus &#8220;presidential election fraud&#8221; accusations from November lead to the murderous failed coup attempt on January 6, with insurrectionists praying and waiving a &#8220;Jesus 2020&#8221; flag.      </p>
<p>Hell yes, frothing-at-the-mouth Evangelicals wedded to White Nationalism and authoritarian neo-fascism are manifesting a Gospel of Death, and they are indeed lusting for more violence and murder, thereby leading the U.S. into another civil war. They will certainly provoke more murder and violence as we approach 2024. And their cycle of lies, fear, and warmongering will not end until they are held accountable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mr Jesperson		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112264</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr Jesperson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jun 2021 21:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=37398#comment-112264</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112263&quot;&gt;otrotierra&lt;/a&gt;.

One of the wages of this kind of narcissism is paranoia.  I would not take this lightly because this is how men like David Koresh and Jim Jones end up leading others to death.  At 18 neither man was the gun packing lunatic that they eventually became.  It takes time to devolve.  I keep seeing signs that &quot;Christians&quot; are becoming more militant politically and are seeing violence less and less like Jesus did.  A recent Barna survey found that about 40% of professing Christians are willing to accept some political violence in order for them to get what they want.  I am increasingly concerned about rhetoric that is leading to a kind of civil war.  There are those on both the right and left who would go off if something lit the fuse.  We are already seeing signs of that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2021/06/02/postcards-from-phoenix-when-church-demands-obedience/#comment-112263">otrotierra</a>.</p>
<p>One of the wages of this kind of narcissism is paranoia.  I would not take this lightly because this is how men like David Koresh and Jim Jones end up leading others to death.  At 18 neither man was the gun packing lunatic that they eventually became.  It takes time to devolve.  I keep seeing signs that &#8220;Christians&#8221; are becoming more militant politically and are seeing violence less and less like Jesus did.  A recent Barna survey found that about 40% of professing Christians are willing to accept some political violence in order for them to get what they want.  I am increasingly concerned about rhetoric that is leading to a kind of civil war.  There are those on both the right and left who would go off if something lit the fuse.  We are already seeing signs of that.</p>
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