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	<title>
	Comments on: Against Sohrab Ahmari-ism	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:20:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Mark Landes		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-102253</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Landes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-102253</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101943&quot;&gt;ken&lt;/a&gt;.

Amazing considering that Trump is President, Mike Pence is Vice-President, Mitch McConnell is Senate Majority Leader and most of the judges from the Supreme Court on down are all Judicial Watch nominees thanks to those two.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101943">ken</a>.</p>
<p>Amazing considering that Trump is President, Mike Pence is Vice-President, Mitch McConnell is Senate Majority Leader and most of the judges from the Supreme Court on down are all Judicial Watch nominees thanks to those two.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don Bryant		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-102010</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Bryant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jun 2019 18:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-102010</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For one, Ahmari is much more open to using government to push back and push down the aggressive left that no longer plays by the rules of &#039;liberal proceduralism.&quot; While Ahmari has been a critic of Trump, he appears to find in him a model (how far I have no idea) for how to use the tools of government in what Ahmari is more than ready to call a war, a word French is distinctly uncomfortable with. French asserts that the rules of proceduralism reflect Christian values and can never be abandoned in any case without being unfaithful to Christ. Ahmari would respond, I think, with &quot;the Constitution is not a suicide pact.&quot; Is Ahmari&#039;s view Trump-centric? What happens after Trump? I guess it is &#039;stay tuned.&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For one, Ahmari is much more open to using government to push back and push down the aggressive left that no longer plays by the rules of &#8216;liberal proceduralism.&#8221; While Ahmari has been a critic of Trump, he appears to find in him a model (how far I have no idea) for how to use the tools of government in what Ahmari is more than ready to call a war, a word French is distinctly uncomfortable with. French asserts that the rules of proceduralism reflect Christian values and can never be abandoned in any case without being unfaithful to Christ. Ahmari would respond, I think, with &#8220;the Constitution is not a suicide pact.&#8221; Is Ahmari&#8217;s view Trump-centric? What happens after Trump? I guess it is &#8216;stay tuned.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don Bryant		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-102009</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Bryant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jun 2019 07:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-102009</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seems that you are constructing a model of what Ahmari&#039;s vision of conservatism might become. There is no way of knowing. We do know what French&#039;s model has become - the collapse of the moral order of America and an anemic GOP that cannot escape its almost sole preoccupation with international capitalism that has hollowed out the American working class, a class that is essential to democracy, complete with the collapse of the family, drug abuse, powerful identity politics, runaway death solutions to America&#039;s ills in abortion, infanticide and euthanasia fantasies, a tidal wave of loneliness in collapse of community, etc. French is a good man, a great man, who does the things we should be doing. I think Ahmari is simply saying &#039;not enough.&#039; The MO of the aggressive left is that liberal proceduralism is dead. There are no rules. Win at all cost. Ahmari, Patrick Deneen, Rod Dreher, RR Reno, and many others are saying that the conservatives must move to occupy the public square, even as has the aggressive left. From where I stand at age 70, it appears that Ahmari&#039;s analysis is the correct one. In any conflict, there might come that moment where the only answer is to win - the dialogue is over and the compromise is impossible. Ahmari seems to be saying that using government for the common good is &#039;game on,&#039; not as a model of preference but as a response to how the left has stormed the ramparts and is no longer interested in coming off its perch for rational dialogue. What to do? That&#039;s a fair question, and for someone to say we should do what we have always done as America slips into a black hole seems a non-answer. Maybe some don&#039;t want to be in that world and want it to be otherwise. That&#039;s an option that is not on the table.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that you are constructing a model of what Ahmari&#8217;s vision of conservatism might become. There is no way of knowing. We do know what French&#8217;s model has become &#8211; the collapse of the moral order of America and an anemic GOP that cannot escape its almost sole preoccupation with international capitalism that has hollowed out the American working class, a class that is essential to democracy, complete with the collapse of the family, drug abuse, powerful identity politics, runaway death solutions to America&#8217;s ills in abortion, infanticide and euthanasia fantasies, a tidal wave of loneliness in collapse of community, etc. French is a good man, a great man, who does the things we should be doing. I think Ahmari is simply saying &#8216;not enough.&#8217; The MO of the aggressive left is that liberal proceduralism is dead. There are no rules. Win at all cost. Ahmari, Patrick Deneen, Rod Dreher, RR Reno, and many others are saying that the conservatives must move to occupy the public square, even as has the aggressive left. From where I stand at age 70, it appears that Ahmari&#8217;s analysis is the correct one. In any conflict, there might come that moment where the only answer is to win &#8211; the dialogue is over and the compromise is impossible. Ahmari seems to be saying that using government for the common good is &#8216;game on,&#8217; not as a model of preference but as a response to how the left has stormed the ramparts and is no longer interested in coming off its perch for rational dialogue. What to do? That&#8217;s a fair question, and for someone to say we should do what we have always done as America slips into a black hole seems a non-answer. Maybe some don&#8217;t want to be in that world and want it to be otherwise. That&#8217;s an option that is not on the table.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe_Brain		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101980</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe_Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jun 2019 10:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101980</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Those who fight monsters must beware they too don&#039;t become monsters thereby.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He&#039;s  lost the plot, missed the point. 1 Corinthians 13 applies.

Those who oppose his views must be careful we too don&#039;t fall into the same trap. That we pass the test, and remain Galadriel.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those who fight monsters must beware they too don&#8217;t become monsters thereby.</p>
<p>Giving him the benefit of the doubt.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s  lost the plot, missed the point. 1 Corinthians 13 applies.</p>
<p>Those who oppose his views must be careful we too don&#8217;t fall into the same trap. That we pass the test, and remain Galadriel.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Living Liminal		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101978</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Living Liminal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2019 19:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101978</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101957&quot;&gt;Headless Unicorn Guy&lt;/a&gt;.

Powerful stuff!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101957">Headless Unicorn Guy</a>.</p>
<p>Powerful stuff!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reflex		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101974</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reflex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2019 17:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101974</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101973&quot;&gt;War-El&lt;/a&gt;.

There are people making that case, strongly. I also have advocated for it. But we have literally hundreds of years of laws dating back to prior to the formation of the United States itself that would need to be rewritten at the federal, state and local level, as well as international agreements for travelers abroad (just ask gay and lesbian couples about how it works when they leave the US for a country that does not recognize their marriage).

Originally I took the position to just abolish marriage as a government recognized concept. Then after researching the situation I realized we have literally decades of work before that would be feasible due to the massive patchwork of laws at all levels that would need to be rewritten. I couldn&#039;t let a theoretically &#039;perfect&#039; solution be the enemy of the &#039;better&#039; which was just letting LGBTQ people get married and worry about writing better laws later.

Honestly in my ideal world there would be a simple form outlining the common rights granted by various government recognized arrangements/relationships, ranging from business to personal to medical and financial, and I could put a list of names in order of priority on each section and file it with an agency somewhere to be consulted upon any triggering event ranging from taxation to death.

Long way away from that though.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101973">War-El</a>.</p>
<p>There are people making that case, strongly. I also have advocated for it. But we have literally hundreds of years of laws dating back to prior to the formation of the United States itself that would need to be rewritten at the federal, state and local level, as well as international agreements for travelers abroad (just ask gay and lesbian couples about how it works when they leave the US for a country that does not recognize their marriage).</p>
<p>Originally I took the position to just abolish marriage as a government recognized concept. Then after researching the situation I realized we have literally decades of work before that would be feasible due to the massive patchwork of laws at all levels that would need to be rewritten. I couldn&#8217;t let a theoretically &#8216;perfect&#8217; solution be the enemy of the &#8216;better&#8217; which was just letting LGBTQ people get married and worry about writing better laws later.</p>
<p>Honestly in my ideal world there would be a simple form outlining the common rights granted by various government recognized arrangements/relationships, ranging from business to personal to medical and financial, and I could put a list of names in order of priority on each section and file it with an agency somewhere to be consulted upon any triggering event ranging from taxation to death.</p>
<p>Long way away from that though.</p>
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		<title>
		By: War-El		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101973</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[War-El]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2019 17:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101973</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101965&quot;&gt;Reflex&lt;/a&gt;.

On the marriage thing, I just mean that if marriage is a container for certain rights and benefits and is not grounded in a specific biological function/purpose, then to exclude people from &quot;marrying&quot; for any reason, ever, seems to be highly discriminatory. I would rather that the government just legally recognized households of any number of adults and dropped all commitment to retaining some approximate form of traditional marriage. If a mother and her son want to share the legal benefits enjoyed by married couples, I do not understand why they need to conform to an arbitrary governmental definition of legitimate relationship. If people want to get married and pledge their love and fidelity to each other, they can do that in church (or in the woods).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101965">Reflex</a>.</p>
<p>On the marriage thing, I just mean that if marriage is a container for certain rights and benefits and is not grounded in a specific biological function/purpose, then to exclude people from &#8220;marrying&#8221; for any reason, ever, seems to be highly discriminatory. I would rather that the government just legally recognized households of any number of adults and dropped all commitment to retaining some approximate form of traditional marriage. If a mother and her son want to share the legal benefits enjoyed by married couples, I do not understand why they need to conform to an arbitrary governmental definition of legitimate relationship. If people want to get married and pledge their love and fidelity to each other, they can do that in church (or in the woods).</p>
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		<title>
		By: War-El		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101970</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[War-El]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2019 16:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101970</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101966&quot;&gt;Reflex&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;m only afraid of bad drag queens. And brother, there are some really bad ones.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101966">Reflex</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m only afraid of bad drag queens. And brother, there are some really bad ones.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gregory Peterson		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101954</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gregory Peterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2019 16:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101954</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101946&quot;&gt;otrotierra&lt;/a&gt;.

Actually, being an old fart, I was paraphrasing this. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-02-09/destroying-a-quote-s-history-in-order-to-save-it

But, you&#039;re right. That is the logic of comic book villainy where someone has to be the villain so that there can be a hero to save us. 

And, come to think of it, I remember hearing that reason for voting for Trump from several sources, that those dreadful liberal villains had made it &quot;necessary to destroy the town to save it,” and Trump was just the person to do that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101946">otrotierra</a>.</p>
<p>Actually, being an old fart, I was paraphrasing this. </p>
<p><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-02-09/destroying-a-quote-s-history-in-order-to-save-it" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-02-09/destroying-a-quote-s-history-in-order-to-save-it</a></p>
<p>But, you&#8217;re right. That is the logic of comic book villainy where someone has to be the villain so that there can be a hero to save us. </p>
<p>And, come to think of it, I remember hearing that reason for voting for Trump from several sources, that those dreadful liberal villains had made it &#8220;necessary to destroy the town to save it,” and Trump was just the person to do that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reflex		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101966</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reflex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jun 2019 14:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34598#comment-101966</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101960&quot;&gt;Headless Unicorn Guy&lt;/a&gt;.

For whatever reason Christian Conservatives seem terrified of men wearing clothes perceived as female. I equate it to irrational fear of clowns, not because drag queens are equivalent to clowns per say, but because some people are irrationally afraid of people who dress differently or in ways that stand out.

To be fair, this seems to be the last line for them, they spent a good chunk of the last century freaking out about women wearing clothing perceived as being too male after all.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/06/03/against-sohrab-ahmari-ism/#comment-101960">Headless Unicorn Guy</a>.</p>
<p>For whatever reason Christian Conservatives seem terrified of men wearing clothes perceived as female. I equate it to irrational fear of clowns, not because drag queens are equivalent to clowns per say, but because some people are irrationally afraid of people who dress differently or in ways that stand out.</p>
<p>To be fair, this seems to be the last line for them, they spent a good chunk of the last century freaking out about women wearing clothing perceived as being too male after all.</p>
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