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	<title>
	Comments on: Harvest Bible Chapel Removes James MacDonald as Elder and Pastor	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:25:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Reflex		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-100055</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reflex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34058#comment-100055</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Abortion rates have been declining in most western nations since the early 90&#039;s.  In the US, they are half of what they were in 1992, and the decline occurred long before restrictive abortion policies started to be passed by states.  Also, the rate of decline in Hungary is not drastic, it is the same gradual curve it has been everywhere else in the west.

The other issue with such stats is that it is based on reported abortions.  By definition that ignores illegal abortions, which studies have demonstrated rise linearly with the loss of abortion rights.  For instance Russia has some of the most restrictive laws on abortion, yet they have had no true decline once illegal abortions are factored in.

I&#039;m not the one pretending to be dumb here.  You asked a question, I showed you the data.  I&#039;m not your personal Google.  If you have a point to make about Hungary, make it with data not with assertions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abortion rates have been declining in most western nations since the early 90&#8217;s.  In the US, they are half of what they were in 1992, and the decline occurred long before restrictive abortion policies started to be passed by states.  Also, the rate of decline in Hungary is not drastic, it is the same gradual curve it has been everywhere else in the west.</p>
<p>The other issue with such stats is that it is based on reported abortions.  By definition that ignores illegal abortions, which studies have demonstrated rise linearly with the loss of abortion rights.  For instance Russia has some of the most restrictive laws on abortion, yet they have had no true decline once illegal abortions are factored in.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not the one pretending to be dumb here.  You asked a question, I showed you the data.  I&#8217;m not your personal Google.  If you have a point to make about Hungary, make it with data not with assertions.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tacitus		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-100041</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tacitus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34058#comment-100041</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[See this is what I mean. This is about a lot more than church finances and you know that. Yet you&#039;re still being over backwards to minimize his wrongdoing. Always with the benefit of the doubt just because of their political leanings.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See this is what I mean. This is about a lot more than church finances and you know that. Yet you&#8217;re still being over backwards to minimize his wrongdoing. Always with the benefit of the doubt just because of their political leanings.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Reflex		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-100039</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reflex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2019 03:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34058#comment-100039</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Um, abortion is legal in Hungary so I&#039;m not sure what you are getting at.  

2017

Hungary -

Population: 9.8 million
Abortions: 28,500
Rate per 1000 live births: 31.1
Rate against total population: 1 in 344 people had an abortion

Population: 323 million
Abortions: 638,169
Rate per 1000 live births: 188
Rate against total population: 1 in 506 people had an abortion

At existing rates, if Hungary had the same total population as the United States, they would have had 939,337 abortions in 2017, a nearly 50% higher rate than in the US.

Interesting figures there, while yes the US had drastically more total abortions, once you control for the population differences Hungary has considerably more abortions per capita.  The discrepancy is when you measure against live births, where Poland had a fraction of the abortions in the US.  What could cause that difference?

1) Hungary has universal tax-funded healthcare for 100% of the population
2) Child care costs for a single parent in the US are 52.7% of income, 25.6% for couples vs less than 4% in Hungary due to government programs
3) College tuition averages $766 for Hungary vs $8202 in the USA
4) Contraception is easily available
5) An aging population means fewer people of fertile age compared to the USA

This generally supports my thesis.  While population wide abortions are more common, the actual rate of abortion per pregnancy is lower.  This strongly implies people who get pregnant in Hungary are more likely to have intended to do so, and that even when they do not social services are so strong that the decision to give up a child is less a function of personal economics.  They still have areas to improve, free long term contraception has been demonstrated to dramatically reduce abortion rates (Colorado demonstrated this quite recently), and the gender pay gap in Hungary is one of the worst in Europe, but strong subsidies around higher education, child care and general health care likely have a very strong impact.

I added the link for the child care reference because the numbers just blew me away, I had no idea it was this bad here:  https://www.simplemost.com/this-is-what-child-care-costs-around-the-world/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, abortion is legal in Hungary so I&#8217;m not sure what you are getting at.  </p>
<p>2017</p>
<p>Hungary &#8211;</p>
<p>Population: 9.8 million<br />
Abortions: 28,500<br />
Rate per 1000 live births: 31.1<br />
Rate against total population: 1 in 344 people had an abortion</p>
<p>Population: 323 million<br />
Abortions: 638,169<br />
Rate per 1000 live births: 188<br />
Rate against total population: 1 in 506 people had an abortion</p>
<p>At existing rates, if Hungary had the same total population as the United States, they would have had 939,337 abortions in 2017, a nearly 50% higher rate than in the US.</p>
<p>Interesting figures there, while yes the US had drastically more total abortions, once you control for the population differences Hungary has considerably more abortions per capita.  The discrepancy is when you measure against live births, where Poland had a fraction of the abortions in the US.  What could cause that difference?</p>
<p>1) Hungary has universal tax-funded healthcare for 100% of the population<br />
2) Child care costs for a single parent in the US are 52.7% of income, 25.6% for couples vs less than 4% in Hungary due to government programs<br />
3) College tuition averages $766 for Hungary vs $8202 in the USA<br />
4) Contraception is easily available<br />
5) An aging population means fewer people of fertile age compared to the USA</p>
<p>This generally supports my thesis.  While population wide abortions are more common, the actual rate of abortion per pregnancy is lower.  This strongly implies people who get pregnant in Hungary are more likely to have intended to do so, and that even when they do not social services are so strong that the decision to give up a child is less a function of personal economics.  They still have areas to improve, free long term contraception has been demonstrated to dramatically reduce abortion rates (Colorado demonstrated this quite recently), and the gender pay gap in Hungary is one of the worst in Europe, but strong subsidies around higher education, child care and general health care likely have a very strong impact.</p>
<p>I added the link for the child care reference because the numbers just blew me away, I had no idea it was this bad here:  <a href="https://www.simplemost.com/this-is-what-child-care-costs-around-the-world/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.simplemost.com/this-is-what-child-care-costs-around-the-world/</a></p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Reflex		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-100029</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reflex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34058#comment-100029</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-99985&quot;&gt;War-El&lt;/a&gt;.

The ends justifying the means is a common moral and ethical trap, especially on the right these days.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-99985">War-El</a>.</p>
<p>The ends justifying the means is a common moral and ethical trap, especially on the right these days.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Reflex		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2019/02/13/harvest-bible-chapel-removes-james-macdonald-as-elder-and-pastor/#comment-100027</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reflex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2019 15:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=34058#comment-100027</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bull.  You don&#039;t want to address the points she made.  You are dodging.  You tell me: How do you reduce abortion rates?  What programs would you specifically support?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bull.  You don&#8217;t want to address the points she made.  You are dodging.  You tell me: How do you reduce abortion rates?  What programs would you specifically support?</p>
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