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	<title>
	Comments on: Willow Creek Association Confirms Loss of Venues Due to Allegations Against Bill Hybels	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
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		<title>
		By: seashell		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97078</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[seashell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2018 22:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=32929#comment-97078</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97075&quot;&gt;David Rahrer&lt;/a&gt;.

Well said.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97075">David Rahrer</a>.</p>
<p>Well said.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Rahrer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97075</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Rahrer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2018 05:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=32929#comment-97075</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97073&quot;&gt;John McCollum&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;If they have some obligation to rebuke the president, it&#039;s unrelated to their decision regarding Bill Hybels and the conference.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I disagree. Their original endorsement may indeed give them an &lt;i&gt;additional&lt;/i&gt; reason to speak out, but the primary reason can be found in that statement, which in turn is sourced from scripture:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;We are reminded from Scripture that God calls us to defend the vulnerable — the orphan, the widow, the oppressed and those who suffer under the misuse of power. In short, God cares deeply how those who possess power use that power.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

There is no qualifier in there about doing so only when one has previously endorsed those misusing power (or anything else). I&#039;m not trying to single out Vineyard Cincinnati Church, it&#039;s just that they made a crystal clear statement which I think leads directly to my inquiry. 

If there were ever a time in our history that the Church should speak with one loud voice in rebuke of our leaders, it would be now. Seriously, if not now, how can they speak up about anything else in the future? Yet we rarely hear rebuke, but agreement and even praise! 

The more power the Church gains from money and politics, the weaker it gets spiritually. This is why the separation of church and state is also so important for the Church itself. If the God of the Bible is real, and any of this is true, then the only genuine power the Church has is in service to others, to show the love of God through mercy, kindness, and being different, not in aligning itself with the same passions and agenda as those outside it. 

Forget not being salty, it doesn&#039;t even smell so good anymore.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97073">John McCollum</a>.</p>
<blockquote><p>If they have some obligation to rebuke the president, it&#8217;s unrelated to their decision regarding Bill Hybels and the conference.</p></blockquote>
<p>I disagree. Their original endorsement may indeed give them an <i>additional</i> reason to speak out, but the primary reason can be found in that statement, which in turn is sourced from scripture:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;We are reminded from Scripture that God calls us to defend the vulnerable — the orphan, the widow, the oppressed and those who suffer under the misuse of power. In short, God cares deeply how those who possess power use that power.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>There is no qualifier in there about doing so only when one has previously endorsed those misusing power (or anything else). I&#8217;m not trying to single out Vineyard Cincinnati Church, it&#8217;s just that they made a crystal clear statement which I think leads directly to my inquiry. </p>
<p>If there were ever a time in our history that the Church should speak with one loud voice in rebuke of our leaders, it would be now. Seriously, if not now, how can they speak up about anything else in the future? Yet we rarely hear rebuke, but agreement and even praise! </p>
<p>The more power the Church gains from money and politics, the weaker it gets spiritually. This is why the separation of church and state is also so important for the Church itself. If the God of the Bible is real, and any of this is true, then the only genuine power the Church has is in service to others, to show the love of God through mercy, kindness, and being different, not in aligning itself with the same passions and agenda as those outside it. </p>
<p>Forget not being salty, it doesn&#8217;t even smell so good anymore.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John McCollum		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97073</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John McCollum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2018 23:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=32929#comment-97073</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97042&quot;&gt;David Rahrer&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;m not sure I agree. They explicitly endorsed Bill Hybels and his leadership conference, so it makes sense that they would explain why they are retracting their endorsement. I&#039;m assuming they didn&#039;t explicitly endorse the president or host any of his campaign events on their premises. If they have some obligation to rebuke the president, it&#039;s unrelated to their decision regarding Bill Hybels and the conference.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97042">David Rahrer</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I agree. They explicitly endorsed Bill Hybels and his leadership conference, so it makes sense that they would explain why they are retracting their endorsement. I&#8217;m assuming they didn&#8217;t explicitly endorse the president or host any of his campaign events on their premises. If they have some obligation to rebuke the president, it&#8217;s unrelated to their decision regarding Bill Hybels and the conference.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Rahrer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97042</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Rahrer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2018 23:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=32929#comment-97042</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97041&quot;&gt;John McCollum&lt;/a&gt;.

As I said in my reply below, I was asking the question, not making an assumption. If they feel it necessary to make that public statement over accusations against Hybels, one would expect at least the same concerning the current president and administration. The latter has exponentially more power and has demonstrated the willingness to abuse it. I couldn&#039;t find anything definitive, so I&#039;m still curious as to whether anyone else knows.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97041">John McCollum</a>.</p>
<p>As I said in my reply below, I was asking the question, not making an assumption. If they feel it necessary to make that public statement over accusations against Hybels, one would expect at least the same concerning the current president and administration. The latter has exponentially more power and has demonstrated the willingness to abuse it. I couldn&#8217;t find anything definitive, so I&#8217;m still curious as to whether anyone else knows.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John McCollum		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97041</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John McCollum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=32929#comment-97041</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97008&quot;&gt;David Rahrer&lt;/a&gt;.

I don&#039;t think we can assume Vineyard Cincinnati is particularly pro-Trump. Yes, Cincy is a conservative city, but the Vineyards I&#039;m familiar with are remarkably diverse politically and consistent advocates for justice.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2018/07/28/willow-creek-association-confirms-loss-of-venues-due-to-allegations-against-bill-hybels/#comment-97008">David Rahrer</a>.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we can assume Vineyard Cincinnati is particularly pro-Trump. Yes, Cincy is a conservative city, but the Vineyards I&#8217;m familiar with are remarkably diverse politically and consistent advocates for justice.</p>
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