Comments on: Reporting on the Kansas Prayer Breakfast, Topeka Capital-Journal Covers David Barton Controversy

By: Bill Fortenberry

Bill Fortenberry — Wed, 30 May 2018 20:08:33 +0000

I’m afraid that you may have misunderstood my previous comment. I am not saying that both sides only have subjective evidence. I am claiming that your position is only supported by subjective speculation whereas my position has subjective answers to those speculations as well as objective evidence to support it. I am trying to find out if you actually do have any objective evidence to support your position.

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 20:08:33 +0000

@ Bill
Okay. I’ll do some research as time allows.
But you use of the word ‘subjective’ to describe ‘both sides’ views’ is appropriate. Neither side can be sure that their view is ‘correct’. My position (such as it currently is) would be that honest enquiry about the provenance of these texts helps us to understand how we should understand them (the texts). I start from my own belief that God/Jesus is not a ‘magician’ (he stayed on the Cross – no ‘magic tricks’ there!), but uses human agents and human history (and indeed human frailty) in order to communicate with us. We have nothing to fear from the Pentateuch being not written by Moses; if this is the case (as I believe it is – though I’m always ‘open to other suggestions’), then our faith need not be threatened by it. 🙂

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 20:08:33 +0000

Evidence unseen. Indeed.
But seriously, I’m not convinced, especially by the responses to some of the ‘objections’. Of course, parts of what became the Torah existed long before the Exile through the oral tradition and probably also in writing, but the actual compilation of the Torah (which I think most agree was written as a single text) is widely judged to have taken place during and after the Exile.
Many bible verses that might be used to ‘claim’ early, Mosaic authorship can also be interpreted in other ways. Remember that the cultures during these periods were probably nothing like as ‘literalists’ about things as us ‘modern westerners’; allegory played an important part in their dialectic, as it does in many cultures to this day.
I find the arguments against early, Mosaic authorship more persuasive than those for it. But, in a sense, Bill, it ultimately doesn’t really matter: it’s a Person (the Word of God) we worship, not a (set of) book(s).

By: Bill Fortenberry

Bill Fortenberry — Wed, 30 May 2018 20:08:33 +0000

Richard, I’ve skimmed through the Enns essay that you posted, and it seems to rely very heavily (perhaps exclusively) on subjective speculations of what the author of Genesis may have been thinking about when he wrote certain phrases. All of the objections that Enns listed in his bullet points can be answered with equally subjective and equally valid explanations that are consistent with Mosaic authorship. For example, Bill Fortenberry has often written about himself in the third person and there is no reason to assume that Moses could not have done so as well. I am looking for something more comprehensive that includes archaeological evidence and evidence from other texts as well as internal textual analysis.

By: Zoe Brain

Zoe Brain — Wed, 30 May 2018 20:07:35 +0000

Bill Fortenbury wrote:

Most of the Bible was written long before the Roman Republic was formed.

The Pentateuch was first written down around the 6th century BC, during the Babylonian Captivity, IIRC
Traditionally, the Roman Republic dates from the overthrow of Lucius Tarquinius Superbus (AKA Tarquin the Proud) in 509 BC.
The Senate traditionally dates from before then, from 753 BC, contemporary with the oldest known written works of the prophets.