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	Comments on: David Barton, Kids, Guns, and Historical Fiction	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:01:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-91587</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-91587</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-73100&quot;&gt;Alan Hopkins&lt;/a&gt;.

As noted elsewhere, the story itself has no real meaning on the current debate for those who are working in the reality based side of life. However, there are many who tweeted it like it was important and relevant and Beck has an audience who apparently cares about those kinds of stories.
This is just the tip of the iceberg with Barton criticizing others for using secondary sources and then doing it himself. People who get tripped on the story are missing the real problem with Barton as an historical expert. Minimizing that doesn&#039;t help; bringing light helps, even though it is painful for some.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-73100">Alan Hopkins</a>.</p>
<p>As noted elsewhere, the story itself has no real meaning on the current debate for those who are working in the reality based side of life. However, there are many who tweeted it like it was important and relevant and Beck has an audience who apparently cares about those kinds of stories.<br />
This is just the tip of the iceberg with Barton criticizing others for using secondary sources and then doing it himself. People who get tripped on the story are missing the real problem with Barton as an historical expert. Minimizing that doesn&#8217;t help; bringing light helps, even though it is painful for some.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-91584</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-91584</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-73120&quot;&gt;Patrocles&lt;/a&gt;.

Pat - Have you read our book? You really have no ability to know until you read it. We recognize that one must be tentative on some questions because the evidence is just not there to know. It is Barton who takes a little bit of evidence here and there and makes dogmatic statements about it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-73120">Patrocles</a>.</p>
<p>Pat &#8211; Have you read our book? You really have no ability to know until you read it. We recognize that one must be tentative on some questions because the evidence is just not there to know. It is Barton who takes a little bit of evidence here and there and makes dogmatic statements about it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-86672</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-86672</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80561&quot;&gt;Patrocles&lt;/a&gt;.

Shorter Patrocles: It is ok to make up something plausible if it is required by the context of the debate.
Like Tom and Barton, you wouldn&#039;t make it past History 101 here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80561">Patrocles</a>.</p>
<p>Shorter Patrocles: It is ok to make up something plausible if it is required by the context of the debate.<br />
Like Tom and Barton, you wouldn&#8217;t make it past History 101 here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-86673</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-86673</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80549&quot;&gt;Patrocles&lt;/a&gt;.

Pat - As a psychologist, I live with ambiguity and few right answers. I am used to it. In fact, my skepticism of the right answers offered by evangelicals in the US is why I am regarded so highly by the culture war complex (sarcasm alert).
However, there are guidelines in doing history well and passing off stories which cannot verified or examined as fact is not good history. One does need to read Popper to know that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80549">Patrocles</a>.</p>
<p>Pat &#8211; As a psychologist, I live with ambiguity and few right answers. I am used to it. In fact, my skepticism of the right answers offered by evangelicals in the US is why I am regarded so highly by the culture war complex (sarcasm alert).<br />
However, there are guidelines in doing history well and passing off stories which cannot verified or examined as fact is not good history. One does need to read Popper to know that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80561</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-80561</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There are a lot of persons who are prepared to shift their scientific rules or standards if it serves nailing a contrahent. Notwithstanding, I think that Dr. Throckmorton is rather the scrupulous kind of guy and would abhor doing such a thing conscientously. (But we shouldn&#039;t forget that a lot of his sources are  less scrupulous, like Right Wing Watch etc.)
On the other hand, I&#039;m under the impression that his grip on the logic of science is (a) naive and (b) antiquated. It is grounded in a kind of &quot;positivism&quot; which I have often found by the more conservative historians (but which was debunked by Karl Popper some decades ago).
Accuracy and certainty (provenness) are infinitesimal values. That means that you simply cannot get at a level of absolute accuracy or absolute certainty (provenness). Your sayings should well be as accurate and as proven, as is required by context of debate and as is possible by your conditions of research.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a lot of persons who are prepared to shift their scientific rules or standards if it serves nailing a contrahent. Notwithstanding, I think that Dr. Throckmorton is rather the scrupulous kind of guy and would abhor doing such a thing conscientously. (But we shouldn&#8217;t forget that a lot of his sources are  less scrupulous, like Right Wing Watch etc.)<br />
On the other hand, I&#8217;m under the impression that his grip on the logic of science is (a) naive and (b) antiquated. It is grounded in a kind of &#8220;positivism&#8221; which I have often found by the more conservative historians (but which was debunked by Karl Popper some decades ago).<br />
Accuracy and certainty (provenness) are infinitesimal values. That means that you simply cannot get at a level of absolute accuracy or absolute certainty (provenness). Your sayings should well be as accurate and as proven, as is required by context of debate and as is possible by your conditions of research.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Van Dyke		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80546</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Van Dyke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-80546</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh no, I can&#039;t believe it&#039;s &quot;ken&quot;!
Your arrival in this combox is right on schedule.  Peace, brother.  But Barton&#039;s sycophants are no worse than those of his critics.
&lt;i&gt;&quot;Y&#039;all are completely unconcerned about whether the story is true.&lt;/i&gt;
See, that&#039;s the point.  If there is one after all this.  FTR, I don&#039;t favor giving the kids guns.  But the adults, yeah, if they want them.
Because if I were a kid in school, I&#039;d absolutely love the idea that some of my teachers have guns, in case one of those Columbine-type fucking maniacs walks in here.
THAT&#039;S a teacher I respect, and am ready to listen to.  [And that includes the female teachers.  I love broads.]
Y&#039;know, kids are the best judges of teachers.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/why-kids-should-grade-teachers/309088/
I bet that if teachers could choose have guns to defend their students or not [carried or stashed], and they kept it secret, the kids could tell who was who.
And as much as I completely admire the pacifist who would die so that others may live, when push comes to shove there&#039;s a lot to respect about those who shove back.  Hard.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh no, I can&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s &#8220;ken&#8221;!<br />
Your arrival in this combox is right on schedule.  Peace, brother.  But Barton&#8217;s sycophants are no worse than those of his critics.<br />
<i>&#8220;Y&#8217;all are completely unconcerned about whether the story is true.</i><br />
See, that&#8217;s the point.  If there is one after all this.  FTR, I don&#8217;t favor giving the kids guns.  But the adults, yeah, if they want them.<br />
Because if I were a kid in school, I&#8217;d absolutely love the idea that some of my teachers have guns, in case one of those Columbine-type fucking maniacs walks in here.<br />
THAT&#8217;S a teacher I respect, and am ready to listen to.  [And that includes the female teachers.  I love broads.]<br />
Y&#8217;know, kids are the best judges of teachers.<br />
<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/why-kids-should-grade-teachers/309088/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/why-kids-should-grade-teachers/309088/</a><br />
I bet that if teachers could choose have guns to defend their students or not [carried or stashed], and they kept it secret, the kids could tell who was who.<br />
And as much as I completely admire the pacifist who would die so that others may live, when push comes to shove there&#8217;s a lot to respect about those who shove back.  Hard.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ken		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80547</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-80547</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tom Van Dyke says:
February 26, 2013 at 11:13 pm
&quot;But Barton&#039;s sycophants are no worse than those of his critics.&quot;
Actually you are, because you refuse to even acknowledge the pattern to his misinformation.  You deliberately try to focus on the leaves of the trees while ignoring those who are you trying to show you the forest.
&quot;&quot;Y&#039;all are completely unconcerned about whether the story is true.
See, that&#039;s the point.&quot;
No they are concerned with whether the story is true, but they are also concerned with the &lt;em&gt;validity&lt;/em&gt; of the story.  And how it was presented.
&quot;And that includes the female teachers. I love broads.&quot;
But you clearly don&#039;t respect them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Van Dyke says:<br />
February 26, 2013 at 11:13 pm<br />
&#8220;But Barton&#8217;s sycophants are no worse than those of his critics.&#8221;<br />
Actually you are, because you refuse to even acknowledge the pattern to his misinformation.  You deliberately try to focus on the leaves of the trees while ignoring those who are you trying to show you the forest.<br />
&#8220;&#8221;Y&#8217;all are completely unconcerned about whether the story is true.<br />
See, that&#8217;s the point.&#8221;<br />
No they are concerned with whether the story is true, but they are also concerned with the <em>validity</em> of the story.  And how it was presented.<br />
&#8220;And that includes the female teachers. I love broads.&#8221;<br />
But you clearly don&#8217;t respect them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Fortenberry		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80545</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Fortenberry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-80545</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Let me make a very minor point, here.  Chris, I agree that Barton should have given the source of his account at the outset, but I am curious as to whether you have ever read L&#039;Amour&#039;s autobiography.  The fact that you searched through newspapers to confirm his account seems to indicate that you have not.  It has been some time since I read it, but I seem to recall L&#039;Amour explaining that his stories came from personal interviews that he conducted with old timers that he ran into all across the western United States.  An account of school kids preventing a man from shooting their teacher is not likely to have appeared in any newspaper (It&#039;s seldom news when no one dies), so if the account is true as L&#039;Amour claimed, then it seems quite possible that he obtained it from someone who was actually there.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me make a very minor point, here.  Chris, I agree that Barton should have given the source of his account at the outset, but I am curious as to whether you have ever read L&#8217;Amour&#8217;s autobiography.  The fact that you searched through newspapers to confirm his account seems to indicate that you have not.  It has been some time since I read it, but I seem to recall L&#8217;Amour explaining that his stories came from personal interviews that he conducted with old timers that he ran into all across the western United States.  An account of school kids preventing a man from shooting their teacher is not likely to have appeared in any newspaper (It&#8217;s seldom news when no one dies), so if the account is true as L&#8217;Amour claimed, then it seems quite possible that he obtained it from someone who was actually there.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Rodda		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80548</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Rodda]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-80548</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ken&#039;s response to Bill was exactly what I was going to say. That&#039;s exactly the reason that I made the comparison in my post to a game of telephone. L&#039;Amour said he collected his stories from multiple types of sources - newspapers, books and diaries, and interviewing people. Since I couldn&#039;t find any newspaper accounts of any incident even remotely similar to this one, I would guess that L&#039;Amour probably heard or read about it via one of the other types of sources he said he used, meaning, as Ken said, that we have no way of knowing how reliable the source was, how many times the story might have been retold (as in a game of telephone) if it was a story he got from interviewing somebody, or if it was exaggerated by the time L&#039;Amour heard it. That&#039;s fine for a fiction writer, but not for an historian.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken&#8217;s response to Bill was exactly what I was going to say. That&#8217;s exactly the reason that I made the comparison in my post to a game of telephone. L&#8217;Amour said he collected his stories from multiple types of sources &#8211; newspapers, books and diaries, and interviewing people. Since I couldn&#8217;t find any newspaper accounts of any incident even remotely similar to this one, I would guess that L&#8217;Amour probably heard or read about it via one of the other types of sources he said he used, meaning, as Ken said, that we have no way of knowing how reliable the source was, how many times the story might have been retold (as in a game of telephone) if it was a story he got from interviewing somebody, or if it was exaggerated by the time L&#8217;Amour heard it. That&#8217;s fine for a fiction writer, but not for an historian.</p>
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		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2013/02/26/david-barton-kids-guns-and-historical-fiction/#comment-80549</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=14086#comment-80549</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I know that that fallibilism - there&#039;s no firm ground under your feet - is disinquieting for a positivist. But one gets used to it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that that fallibilism &#8211; there&#8217;s no firm ground under your feet &#8211; is disinquieting for a positivist. But one gets used to it.</p>
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