Comments on: Did Ronald Reagan oppose James Brady on gun control? No, David Barton, Reagan favored the Brady Bill (UPDATED)

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:26:32 +0000

No, Zoe! Oceania is at war with EURASIA. Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with Eurasia. 🙂
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David Cary Hart says: ‘ BTW, one thing that victims never say (including me) is: “If I had only been carrying a [name a WMD], I would not have been shot.” ‘
I think this is a really good point.

By: Tom Van Dyke

Tom Van Dyke — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:26:32 +0000

Would Ronald Reagan have supported President Obama’s &/orNY Gov. Cuomo’s 2013 governmental reactions to the Newtown shootings?
The dude shot his own mother in the face first, fer crissakes, Warren.
With all due respect. Reagan’s post-presidential support for the 1991 Brady Bill is not an endorsement of what President Obama and Gov. Cuomo are up to in 2013.
Exchanging half-truths with David Barton furthers the American discussion not atall.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:26:32 +0000

Tom – What half truths are you referring to? I am not seeing anything in my post which says Reagan would agree with all of Obama’s current moves.

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 30 May 2018 18:08:03 +0000

@ oft.. Seminarian or not, your scripture quotes hardly support the alleged right of every human being to bear arms. Along with the verses I gave you I suspect you would have considerable difficulty with what Paul says in Romans 13 .. re: that government gets its authority from God and thus .. government does not bear the sword in vain. This biblical directive would throw a pretty major monkey wrench in the ideology that people should have arms so that they can rise up against government if it becomes oppressive. I would add that I have never heard anyone try to use scripture to justify the right to bear arms. Any discussion on this or questions of the role of government would be complex especially when you consider that there were no democracies in scripture… all they knew were kingdoms.
As for our forefathers.. whether they were deists or theists it is not the same as being a Christian. Just because someone uses the word “God” in a sentence does not make them a Christian. And .. since they were politicians .. what they said in public and what they believed in private can be two different things. This is why, for example, Jefferson kept his “Jefferson Bible” hidden. He knew it would not sit well with Christians. Our forefathers were brilliant men in their time period who created and moved forward a type of government / nation that had never been seen before. But they weren’t all followers of Jesus Christ.
Back to the topic at hand ..
I don’t know if a reasonable discussion is possible with you. Gun control would IMO fall under a discussion of ethics. The assumptions you are making from scripture and the assumptions you are making about the forefathers of America are secondary to that discussion. All rights .. whether the right to bear arms .. the right to free speech .. or even the right to pursue happiness are limited by how the exercise of those rights interferes with the rights of others. This is where the meat of the discussion lies. Is the right of people to have health insurance and emergency health care trumped or limited by the moral views of your employer .. whether that be a Catholic Church run hospital or Hobby Lobby. Does your right to free speech (which does give you the right to question govt. without penalty) include the right to slander and threaten government officials and their families and/or does it include yelling fire in a theater. Does the right to bear arms include the right of your mentally unstable neighbor to have a semiautomatic weapon? These are all ethical questions. Simplistic assumptions or conclusions are not going to work here.
Peace,
Dave

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 30 May 2018 18:08:03 +0000

@ oft .. Your use of scripture to support gun rights is IMO as a Nazarene Pastor .. one of the worst cases of bible eisegesis I have ever seen. FYI: Eisegesis is putting a meaning into the text that is not there based on your own biases and agenda. I would love to see what you do with verses that speak of beating your swords into plowshears or that say that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.
As for the founders being Christian .. some of them were Christians .. some of them were deists .. and some of them were theists .. All of them were politicians .. which means they used the language that the people (who were predcominantly Christians) would best receive and support.
Dave

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 18:08:03 +0000

Well, the Crime Survey for England & Wales for 2012 was published yesterday.
In Inner London (pop. c. 7 million), the number of persons that were victims of (alleged) murder was 99 (the first time in over 40 years, a period which has seen a number of ‘gun control’ measures be introduced, that it was fewer than 100).
Six of these (alleged) victims lost their lives in a situation involving a firearm – which is six too many, of course.

By: oft

oft — Wed, 30 May 2018 18:08:01 +0000

Dave,
I am in seminary right now and would caution you making statements without properly sourcing your claims. There were not “some” deists, rather, based on the 18th century definition of the term, there was probably one deist and not more than you could count on your right hand.

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 17:46:22 +0000

@ oft again
BTW, I don’t see the logic in your statement about Martin Hale and the tragedy at Colombine. Hale undertook a dangerous mission, and paid the ultimate price for it. I don’t think that GW had anything to do with his execution – surely it was the British who executed him? And what has any of this to do with Colombine?

By: oft

oft — Wed, 30 May 2018 17:46:22 +0000

Richard,
Yes, the Bible affirms the right to bear arms. That is where the framers got it from. GW executed Hale when Hamilton and others begged him not to.

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 30 May 2018 17:46:22 +0000

@ oft .. Really!! Chapter and verse please..