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	<title>
	Comments on: David Barton to Appear at Scott Lively&#8217;s Ministry in Springfield MA	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:47:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-95168</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-95168</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84008&quot;&gt;MWorrell&lt;/a&gt;.

Hey M - I am not all the way back but am getting stronger daily. Thanks for your prayers and good wishes.

I think you are right about the faulty aims of these groups. They want to use the power of the state to coerce Christian behavior which is indeed futile for several reasons. The first that comes to mind is theological (original sin) and a related one: Christians can&#039;t do it so what makes them think others can who don&#039;t believe the same way.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84008">MWorrell</a>.</p>
<p>Hey M &#8211; I am not all the way back but am getting stronger daily. Thanks for your prayers and good wishes.</p>
<p>I think you are right about the faulty aims of these groups. They want to use the power of the state to coerce Christian behavior which is indeed futile for several reasons. The first that comes to mind is theological (original sin) and a related one: Christians can&#8217;t do it so what makes them think others can who don&#8217;t believe the same way.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84624</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84624</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-77189&quot;&gt;Zoe Brain&lt;/a&gt;.

Zoe - After my surgery, my emotions have been all over the place. I have been quite disappointed and quite optimistic all in the same day. I know why you say what you did. I continue to be quite disappointed that Christian groups who now know that Barton is not accurate with his statements have not done very much about it. I can agree that politics and money corrupts, even without awareness. I am mostly hopeful that things can change over time -- look at Exodus and the current situation in the ex-gay world -- much different than 3 years ago.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-77189">Zoe Brain</a>.</p>
<p>Zoe &#8211; After my surgery, my emotions have been all over the place. I have been quite disappointed and quite optimistic all in the same day. I know why you say what you did. I continue to be quite disappointed that Christian groups who now know that Barton is not accurate with his statements have not done very much about it. I can agree that politics and money corrupts, even without awareness. I am mostly hopeful that things can change over time &#8212; look at Exodus and the current situation in the ex-gay world &#8212; much different than 3 years ago.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84006</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84006</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Back to the post: isn&#039;t it interesting how &#039;liberal&#039; has become a kind of insult?  I&#039;m proud to be a &#039;liberal&#039;, and we shouldn&#039;t forget that, fundamentally speaking, democratic societies are in essence &#039;liberal&#039;, since they are founded upon the inalienable right of people to question and challenge on the understanding that noone has a &#039;monopoly on the truth&#039;.  I would argue that &#039;taking God seriously&#039; involves taking such an understanding seriously ... hence my profound gripe with &#039;religious fundamentalists&#039;, &#039;dominionists&#039;, etc.



I do understand the problem that some have with &#039;liberalism&#039;: being challenged by questions can be uncomfortable, especially in an age where people seem to want quick and easy answers to complex problems.  And sometimes, it must be admitted, the modus operandi of &#039;liberals&#039; can appear somewhat illiberal, when &#039;liberals&#039; forget those word of Voltaire: &quot;I do not agree with what you have to say, but ...&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to the post: isn&#8217;t it interesting how &#8216;liberal&#8217; has become a kind of insult?  I&#8217;m proud to be a &#8216;liberal&#8217;, and we shouldn&#8217;t forget that, fundamentally speaking, democratic societies are in essence &#8216;liberal&#8217;, since they are founded upon the inalienable right of people to question and challenge on the understanding that noone has a &#8216;monopoly on the truth&#8217;.  I would argue that &#8216;taking God seriously&#8217; involves taking such an understanding seriously &#8230; hence my profound gripe with &#8216;religious fundamentalists&#8217;, &#8216;dominionists&#8217;, etc.</p>
<p>I do understand the problem that some have with &#8216;liberalism&#8217;: being challenged by questions can be uncomfortable, especially in an age where people seem to want quick and easy answers to complex problems.  And sometimes, it must be admitted, the modus operandi of &#8216;liberals&#8217; can appear somewhat illiberal, when &#8216;liberals&#8217; forget those word of Voltaire: &#8220;I do not agree with what you have to say, but &#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lynn David		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84007</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lynn David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84007</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Back, somewhat in form, Warren.  Here&#039;s hoping it is like that for a long time to come.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back, somewhat in form, Warren.  Here&#8217;s hoping it is like that for a long time to come.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MWorrell		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84008</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MWorrell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84008</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Glad you&#039;re back, Warren.



At some point it dawned on me that groups like AFA are just spending all their time trying to convince non-Christians to behave like Christians - which is, if the Bible is true, is an utterly futile task. It is not Christianity, However, I believe that the hazards of  behaviors should not be ignored in the name of political correctness, as articulated in books like Unprotected by Miriam Grossman.



Here&#039;s what I&#039;m proposing these days:

www.facebook.com/DomesticPartnershipsForAll]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you&#8217;re back, Warren.</p>
<p>At some point it dawned on me that groups like AFA are just spending all their time trying to convince non-Christians to behave like Christians &#8211; which is, if the Bible is true, is an utterly futile task. It is not Christianity, However, I believe that the hazards of  behaviors should not be ignored in the name of political correctness, as articulated in books like Unprotected by Miriam Grossman.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I&#8217;m proposing these days:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.facebook.com/DomesticPartnershipsForAll" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.facebook.com/DomesticPartnershipsForAll</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84009</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84009</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren - a personal note.

&lt;blockquote&gt; After my surgery, my emotions have been all over the place.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

To be expected. Your body has endured a major surgical insult.



Been there, done that, scar from bikini line to breastbone, then there was the genital reconstruction many years later of course. 



It&#039;s perfectly normal, will go away in time (a few weeks at most) but you may be hit by the &quot;post-op blues&quot; at 8-16 weeks. That&#039;s normal too, if you realise it&#039;s just your body&#039;s way of coping, it&#039;s a lot easier.



Please don&#039;t try to do too much too early. It&#039;s OK to let the world turn without your intervention for a while. It will do anyway. There&#039;s plenty to do, the problems aren&#039;t going away, they&#039;ll be there ready for you to tackle them when you&#039;re physically and emotionally able to do so.



Please listen to your body. At the first sign of tiredness, it means you should rest, as you&#039;ve already overdone things a little. Try to go &quot;just one more minute&quot; and you&#039;ll likely crash. Rest immediately, then re-start, and you&#039;ll not just get more done, but the extra exercise will speed up the healing.



As for hope - &lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The Arc of the Moral Universe Is Long, but It Bends Toward Justice&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt; - MLK jr]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren &#8211; a personal note.</p>
<blockquote><p> After my surgery, my emotions have been all over the place.</p></blockquote>
<p>To be expected. Your body has endured a major surgical insult.</p>
<p>Been there, done that, scar from bikini line to breastbone, then there was the genital reconstruction many years later of course. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s perfectly normal, will go away in time (a few weeks at most) but you may be hit by the &#8220;post-op blues&#8221; at 8-16 weeks. That&#8217;s normal too, if you realise it&#8217;s just your body&#8217;s way of coping, it&#8217;s a lot easier.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t try to do too much too early. It&#8217;s OK to let the world turn without your intervention for a while. It will do anyway. There&#8217;s plenty to do, the problems aren&#8217;t going away, they&#8217;ll be there ready for you to tackle them when you&#8217;re physically and emotionally able to do so.</p>
<p>Please listen to your body. At the first sign of tiredness, it means you should rest, as you&#8217;ve already overdone things a little. Try to go &#8220;just one more minute&#8221; and you&#8217;ll likely crash. Rest immediately, then re-start, and you&#8217;ll not just get more done, but the extra exercise will speed up the healing.</p>
<p>As for hope &#8211; </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The Arc of the Moral Universe Is Long, but It Bends Toward Justice&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p> &#8211; MLK jr</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84010</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84010</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My core point is, that nobody has a birthright to be seen as a trustworthy member of any community. He has to work on that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My core point is, that nobody has a birthright to be seen as a trustworthy member of any community. He has to work on that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84012</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84012</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ MWorrell



I think your statement does need some &#039;qualification&#039;: Although myself a Christian, I for one would not generally accept many of the beliefs of many of the Christians in organizations such as the AFA.  Fundamentally, some ideas in those circles about the &#039;provenance&#039; of the Bible, and how it should be interpreted, are not ones to which I would subscribe, the importance to the Church of the diverse collection of writings that makes up the Canon of Scripture notwithstanding.



One of things that is happening, underneath all the &#039;surface spats&#039;, is a real battle over what Christianity, and perhaps religion in general, is about.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ MWorrell</p>
<p>I think your statement does need some &#8216;qualification&#8217;: Although myself a Christian, I for one would not generally accept many of the beliefs of many of the Christians in organizations such as the AFA.  Fundamentally, some ideas in those circles about the &#8216;provenance&#8217; of the Bible, and how it should be interpreted, are not ones to which I would subscribe, the importance to the Church of the diverse collection of writings that makes up the Canon of Scripture notwithstanding.</p>
<p>One of things that is happening, underneath all the &#8216;surface spats&#8217;, is a real battle over what Christianity, and perhaps religion in general, is about.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-84002</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-84002</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For example, I&#039;m of the anabaptist conviction. I wouldn&#039; expect evangelicals to take advice from me, like &quot; they should be worried more about reaching people with the essential message of the church&quot;. Why should they trust that my advice is in their best interest? (There&#039;s a lot of liberal publicists who fake giving advice to evangelicals and do it not in their best interest.) 



On the other hand, I would treat my evangelical neighbour as any other human being and say, yes, he has the right to be a traditionalist and to take his stand in the culture war (which he didn&#039;t begin and which he can&#039;t finish).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For example, I&#8217;m of the anabaptist conviction. I wouldn&#8217; expect evangelicals to take advice from me, like &#8221; they should be worried more about reaching people with the essential message of the church&#8221;. Why should they trust that my advice is in their best interest? (There&#8217;s a lot of liberal publicists who fake giving advice to evangelicals and do it not in their best interest.) </p>
<p>On the other hand, I would treat my evangelical neighbour as any other human being and say, yes, he has the right to be a traditionalist and to take his stand in the culture war (which he didn&#8217;t begin and which he can&#8217;t finish).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/10/05/david-barton-to-appear-at-scott-livelys-ministry-in-springfield-ma/#comment-83998</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=12324#comment-83998</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren,



Glad to see your posing more regularly again.  God speed on your recovery.  



I confess I am both discouraged .. encouraged and .. discouraged by this post.  Yes .. I know I added the extra discouraged ..   I .. like you ...was discouraged at the lack of response to Barton and lack of critique of his work.  Then I was encouraged that Beck does not embrace the cultural wars ... but then .. I watched the video of Beck you provided... What in the world is that stuff in the video after the Fox News piece??  What dark place did that come from ???



Dave]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren,</p>
<p>Glad to see your posing more regularly again.  God speed on your recovery.  </p>
<p>I confess I am both discouraged .. encouraged and .. discouraged by this post.  Yes .. I know I added the extra discouraged ..   I .. like you &#8230;was discouraged at the lack of response to Barton and lack of critique of his work.  Then I was encouraged that Beck does not embrace the cultural wars &#8230; but then .. I watched the video of Beck you provided&#8230; What in the world is that stuff in the video after the Fox News piece??  What dark place did that come from ???</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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