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	<title>
	Comments on: Desert Stream Ministries Outlines Differences with Exodus	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79093</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79093</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[All - I was struck by the phrase &quot;good offering to the opposite gender&quot; too. I think people become unclear the farther away from the point of Christianity they get. Christianity is about the drama of redemption, not making sure every boy gets a girl. 



To me, this statement of faith elevates heterosexual compatibility over grace and redemption. It makes heterosexuality a measure of one&#039;s spiritual depth and relationship with God. 



This mindset once (and may still be in some quarters) permeated Exodus. I recall speaking at an ex-gay event where I talked about the research on sexual orientation change. I am sure it seemed discouraging to the crowd, many of whom would be at home in the new Restored Hope Network. One man asked the question: &quot;If a relationship with Christ can&#039;t change your orientation, then why would anyone want to be a Christian?&quot; I am pretty sure he meant, why would a SSA person want to be a Christian, but his frustration with my speech came out in that absolute manner. There is a viewpoint (Joel Osteen - Your Best Life NOW) within Christianity that a relationship with Christ is only good for the benefits it brings to my life now -- more money, more influence, better kids, better marriage, and in this case - sexual orientation change.  Without the benefit now, then why would anyone want it. 



Back to the &quot;good offering&quot; business, this gets too close to Unification theology for me. In that view, the reason Sun Myung Moon had to be the third  Adam was because Adam and Eve failed (dang serpent), and Christ failed (dang crucifixion) to institute the perfect heterosexual family on earth. The Moons, as True Parents, stepped forward to fulfill the Messianic duty. This is &quot;every boy gets a girl&quot; as the purpose of life at the extreme and I am not calling Comiskey a Unificationist, but I think there is value in pointing out how close to redemptive this statement of faith makes opposite sex pairing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All &#8211; I was struck by the phrase &#8220;good offering to the opposite gender&#8221; too. I think people become unclear the farther away from the point of Christianity they get. Christianity is about the drama of redemption, not making sure every boy gets a girl. </p>
<p>To me, this statement of faith elevates heterosexual compatibility over grace and redemption. It makes heterosexuality a measure of one&#8217;s spiritual depth and relationship with God. </p>
<p>This mindset once (and may still be in some quarters) permeated Exodus. I recall speaking at an ex-gay event where I talked about the research on sexual orientation change. I am sure it seemed discouraging to the crowd, many of whom would be at home in the new Restored Hope Network. One man asked the question: &#8220;If a relationship with Christ can&#8217;t change your orientation, then why would anyone want to be a Christian?&#8221; I am pretty sure he meant, why would a SSA person want to be a Christian, but his frustration with my speech came out in that absolute manner. There is a viewpoint (Joel Osteen &#8211; Your Best Life NOW) within Christianity that a relationship with Christ is only good for the benefits it brings to my life now &#8212; more money, more influence, better kids, better marriage, and in this case &#8211; sexual orientation change.  Without the benefit now, then why would anyone want it. </p>
<p>Back to the &#8220;good offering&#8221; business, this gets too close to Unification theology for me. In that view, the reason Sun Myung Moon had to be the third  Adam was because Adam and Eve failed (dang serpent), and Christ failed (dang crucifixion) to institute the perfect heterosexual family on earth. The Moons, as True Parents, stepped forward to fulfill the Messianic duty. This is &#8220;every boy gets a girl&#8221; as the purpose of life at the extreme and I am not calling Comiskey a Unificationist, but I think there is value in pointing out how close to redemptive this statement of faith makes opposite sex pairing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79088</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79088</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Teresa:



I think that this lot DO value celibacy, but as second best; in other words, something that should be accepted and welcomed on the principle of not making the perfect the enemy of the good. But I suspect that the ultimate aim, the ideal towards which they strive even if it may never be achieved in this world, is to have every gay/lesbian person sooner or later permanently shacked up with someone of the sex to which he/she has no sexual attraction.



@ Warren:



&quot;To me, this statement of faith elevates heterosexual compatibility over grace and redemption. It makes heterosexuality a measure of one&#039;s spiritual depth and relationship with God.&quot;



Perhaps this could be summed up as: &quot;Faith, hope and heterosexuality. And the greatest of these is heterosexuality.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Teresa:</p>
<p>I think that this lot DO value celibacy, but as second best; in other words, something that should be accepted and welcomed on the principle of not making the perfect the enemy of the good. But I suspect that the ultimate aim, the ideal towards which they strive even if it may never be achieved in this world, is to have every gay/lesbian person sooner or later permanently shacked up with someone of the sex to which he/she has no sexual attraction.</p>
<p>@ Warren:</p>
<p>&#8220;To me, this statement of faith elevates heterosexual compatibility over grace and redemption. It makes heterosexuality a measure of one&#8217;s spiritual depth and relationship with God.&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps this could be summed up as: &#8220;Faith, hope and heterosexuality. And the greatest of these is heterosexuality.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ann		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79094</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79094</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Actually, as Christians we make of ourselves &quot;a good offering&quot; to Our Lord &#8230; in any way He sees as our best.



Teresa,



Awesome!  



When we can come to this level of understanding, and do it with a humble and authentic surrender, we can then have a lot of things to look forward to.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, as Christians we make of ourselves &#8220;a good offering&#8221; to Our Lord &#8230; in any way He sees as our best.</p>
<p>Teresa,</p>
<p>Awesome!  </p>
<p>When we can come to this level of understanding, and do it with a humble and authentic surrender, we can then have a lot of things to look forward to.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79095</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79095</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Being a good husband or good offering to the opposite gender can include a myriad of qualities other than sex.&quot;



True enough, Ann.  But when a man CAN&#039;T feel that sort of attraction to his wife -- and she senses it -- it can be very painful and destructive for both.  Both ending up feeling inadequate in some way.    I know from personal experience.  She deserved a heterosexual man.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Being a good husband or good offering to the opposite gender can include a myriad of qualities other than sex.&#8221;</p>
<p>True enough, Ann.  But when a man CAN&#8217;T feel that sort of attraction to his wife &#8212; and she senses it &#8212; it can be very painful and destructive for both.  Both ending up feeling inadequate in some way.    I know from personal experience.  She deserved a heterosexual man.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David M.		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79097</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79097</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Michael, I share your experience. After 23 years in a heterosexual marriage I realized I would never be able to love her in the way she deserves and needs to be loved, that is, in the way marriage requires me to love her.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I share your experience. After 23 years in a heterosexual marriage I realized I would never be able to love her in the way she deserves and needs to be loved, that is, in the way marriage requires me to love her.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Murray Downie		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79081</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Murray Downie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79081</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What rubbish some of these people write.How pharasitical ...that they put themselves above others that God has created.....Each one of us is unique and as David said in Psalm 139 God knew us before we were born. he knit us together in our mothers womb..He knew our lives and the way they would go.....I am unique as each of us..and made in his likeness.....SSA is not a learned thing Many like myself have never been attracted to the opposite sex.. I cannott live a lie and as in Gods word it is stated that liers will not enter the kingdom.....I know that Jesus wants us to believe in him..John 3:16 The word Whoever is whom Jesus said would be saved... No exclusions......As to &quot;Being given as an offering to the oposite sex.  stop their SSA attraction..What rubbish  That person would be living a lie.. You might stop acts committed by SSA but what about the roving eye..The mind is part of that creation which is God given.....I am sure and I know that Married SSA people still have the roving eye and they lust in their mind when seeing another of their sex that the like.. Does not Jesus say that a man that lusts for someone other than their spouse has already committed adultery.....I know also that those that have come under peer pressure to marry have advised that they live in dread of slipping......I feel so much for the spouse The torment that she or he must be in not knowing if their partner would revert....God did not expect us to live under a mantle of Guilt as thes people seem to want......I smiled as there was a advert on this page covering a book &quot; Bullycide &quot; These people have a lot to account for in their bullying and it is known that many peole put in their care have ended commiting suicide.....Remember we all eventall will have to stand before the Great Judge.......If I am wrong it is between myself and God not myself and man......All i want to do is show Gods unconditional love to others....Is it wrong to do that... It is the holy spirit with in that does the convicting of wrongs not man.. Remember we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What rubbish some of these people write.How pharasitical &#8230;that they put themselves above others that God has created&#8230;..Each one of us is unique and as David said in Psalm 139 God knew us before we were born. he knit us together in our mothers womb..He knew our lives and the way they would go&#8230;..I am unique as each of us..and made in his likeness&#8230;..SSA is not a learned thing Many like myself have never been attracted to the opposite sex.. I cannott live a lie and as in Gods word it is stated that liers will not enter the kingdom&#8230;..I know that Jesus wants us to believe in him..John 3:16 The word Whoever is whom Jesus said would be saved&#8230; No exclusions&#8230;&#8230;As to &#8220;Being given as an offering to the oposite sex.  stop their SSA attraction..What rubbish  That person would be living a lie.. You might stop acts committed by SSA but what about the roving eye..The mind is part of that creation which is God given&#8230;..I am sure and I know that Married SSA people still have the roving eye and they lust in their mind when seeing another of their sex that the like.. Does not Jesus say that a man that lusts for someone other than their spouse has already committed adultery&#8230;..I know also that those that have come under peer pressure to marry have advised that they live in dread of slipping&#8230;&#8230;I feel so much for the spouse The torment that she or he must be in not knowing if their partner would revert&#8230;.God did not expect us to live under a mantle of Guilt as thes people seem to want&#8230;&#8230;I smiled as there was a advert on this page covering a book &#8221; Bullycide &#8221; These people have a lot to account for in their bullying and it is known that many peole put in their care have ended commiting suicide&#8230;..Remember we all eventall will have to stand before the Great Judge&#8230;&#8230;.If I am wrong it is between myself and God not myself and man&#8230;&#8230;All i want to do is show Gods unconditional love to others&#8230;.Is it wrong to do that&#8230; It is the holy spirit with in that does the convicting of wrongs not man.. Remember we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David M.		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79077</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79077</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So what if a person is born with man-parts and woman-parts. What&#039;s the opposite of that?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what if a person is born with man-parts and woman-parts. What&#8217;s the opposite of that?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gus		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79078</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79078</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;We believe that Jesus brings change to every Christian with SSA who seeks Him whole-heartedly.&quot;



 Translation: When you fail it is not OUR fault.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We believe that Jesus brings change to every Christian with SSA who seeks Him whole-heartedly.&#8221;</p>
<p> Translation: When you fail it is not OUR fault.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79079</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79079</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Michael - Well put!  It really is a most odd statement, and a rather creepy one too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael &#8211; Well put!  It really is a most odd statement, and a rather creepy one too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David M.		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2012/08/06/desert-stream-ministries-outlines-differences-with-exodus/#comment-79076</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David M.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=11911#comment-79076</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I regret the way I phrased my earlier post. It might come across as flip, as not taking sexual variations seriously. That&#039;s the opposite of my intention. The way Andy Comiskey phrased his email doesn&#039;t even correspond to reality. The idea that we are all born either male or female and that all of us are somehow innately heterosexual is preposterous to me. I was trying to point out the absurdity of his language, and his simplistic ideas.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I regret the way I phrased my earlier post. It might come across as flip, as not taking sexual variations seriously. That&#8217;s the opposite of my intention. The way Andy Comiskey phrased his email doesn&#8217;t even correspond to reality. The idea that we are all born either male or female and that all of us are somehow innately heterosexual is preposterous to me. I was trying to point out the absurdity of his language, and his simplistic ideas.</p>
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