I’m surprised that you would identify poor parenting because I didn’t think you believed that poor parenting (in the sense above) was one of the causes of homosexuality.

You are reading me wrong. I don’t think parenting has very much to do with homosexuality. I wanted to establish that the description you provide for the kind of parenting that you say leads to homosexuality can only be described as poor.

David Pickup also wrote:

This doesn’t necessarily mean the child receives what he needs, or enough of it. If they did, we wouldn’t be discovering deeply repressed grief, anger and identity shame. In my clinical and personal experience, most, if not all, male homosexuals do not experience an attachment to their caregivers, mentoring adults or peers that is deeply connected, only in very well intentioned but “surface” ways; ways that appear to be good to some extent but tragically are not enough or at all what a child needs.

Here is where I believe you are engaging in confirmation bias and circular reasoning. The existence of these mood states you find are assumed to be due to parental deprivation of some kind. The parenting is assumed to be surface or inadequate if the client is gay. If the client is straight then the client might be wounded but apparently (to you) not as deeply as the gay client. The depth of the wound is assumed based on the current sexual orientation of the client. Straight – deep; gay – really deep.

Over the years, I have worked with clients, gay and straight, who have been shamed and what stands out to me is how similar they are. I need to add that I once thought there might be something to reparative drive theory but came to disagree with it via research findings and my experience with clients and non-client friends who are gay or have gay children. Furthermore, I have seen clients and friends deeply shamed and wounded by reparative therapists. If I have an edge to my writing on this topic, it probably is because of my empathy for them.

David Pickup – Thanks for stopping by.

You wrote:

Also, in my opinion, the use of “poor parenting” seems to carry with it a judgmental and pejorative term that suggests parents of homosexuals are necessarily horrible people. I don’t subscribe to this view.

Then you wrote:

I believe the root causes to be a severe lack of affirmation of gender identity, lack of approval by male and female role models, and lack of emotional/physical affection, mainly experienced within the crucial developmental years in which identity is first formed,

I believe you mean well, but the attribution of poor parenting seems impossible to avoid. This surely isn’t good parenting. You are saying that the parents of homosexuals did not show love nor did they approve of their children. First of all, many parents indeed are like this and homosexuality in a child does not result. Second, many homosexuals do not have such homes.

What is your explanation for the gay men and women who have parents that loved them, showed them affection, and affirmed their gender identity? I have met and know many such people. I know families like this who have gay children. And I am not taking their word for it; these are people I know well.

I would think this would be particularly true in ridigly religious families — and families where the parents had inappropriate guilt because they believed (with the help of NARTHian “therapists”) that gayness was a disorder that they had somehow “caused”.

I think you may have a point. But I wouldn’t take it as far as seeing Mr. Pickup’s primary motivation for his work as mercenary. I like to believe the best about everybody, so maybe I’m naive. Still, I suspect he’s a man who either has found help for his issues or wants to believe he’s found help through reparative therapy. I suspect he wants to help other men find the help he has found/wants to have found.

There is a danger in this, namely, transference, in psychological lingo. He would need to take care that he is not trying to help himself by helping others. But I see no reason to believe he is doing that.

When I was college age, I remember leading a Bible study out of Romans 1 for some boys at a camp. I cautioned them against all the evils of homosexuality — promiscuity, disease, you name the stereotype. During that week of camp, one boy in my charge tried to throw himself out a second story window. I was told by a camp leader to move on to other topics. I didn’t understand at the time. I do now. I look back on that event with profound regret. If I knew that boy’s name, I would apologize to him profusely today. But given what I knew or thought I knew at the time, I was doing my best to help. No excuse, but an explanation.

Mr. Pickup is no doubt a great deal less naive than I was as a college student in the late 70s. But I suspect he is doing his best to help other men who deal with unwanted same-sex desires. He may be worried that Exodus will stop referring clients (I don’t think that’s happened yet), but he may also be genuinely concerned that other men will not receive the help they need.

Misguided in my view, but not ill-motivated.

I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I am a lifelong student of theology. From that perspective, I make a few observations:

1. It is evident that many of the members speaking for NARTH are motivated by religious beliefs rather than psychological insight. I don’t mean to compartmentalize human life, but psychology and theology are distinct disciplines. There is a problem when psychologists or psychiatrists make claims that are motivated by religious beliefs under the guise of psychology. If they wish to speak as theologians, I have no problem with that (aren’t we all theologians of some sort?). But in that case, they should step out from behind their degrees and claim to be speaking only as lay students of theology.

2. As a matter of theology, if God’s expectation has been that homosexually oriented people should become heterosexual, it seems strange that God would provide the mechanism for this (reparative therapy) only in the 20th century. Assuming that people of other ages were homosexually oriented, even if they didn’t use that psychological description, what did God expect of them? Modern psychology and psychiatry is a great blessing, but it cannot be the answer to a problem which is defined by some as sin. That is theological nonsense, bordering on blasphemy, i.e., making a savior of psychology.

3. Pickup’s statement quoted above points to what may be a problem in his thinking. I don’t want to give too much weight to a single sentence, even when placed in context. But… it appears Pickup is making a distinction between the “real change” reparative therapy offers, and the “spiritual” issues with which Exodus might concern itself. I had always thought that the sanctification spoken of in Scripture meant real change! If sanctification/holiness is not the motivation for pursuing reparative therapy, then why is Pickup writing about it on an Anglican site. Let’s get real. The main motivation for most people pursuing reparative therapy is religious. Pickup knows this. So exactly what does his distinction between spiritual matters and real change mean? Or maybe the whole sentence is sarcastic, faulting Exodus for being too “spiritual,” too ethereal to be of any earthly good.

Maybe, just maybe, orientation change is not the real change God is looking for.

No…in my opinion, there are several profound emotional/psychological factors and/or experiences, which cause homosexuality. Also, in my opinion, the use of “poor parenting” seems to carry with it a judgmental and pejorative term that suggests parents of homosexuals are necessarily horrible people. I don’t subscribe to this view.

“Also, aren’t homosexuals undergoing RT quite a small population of homosexuals, as a whole; and, are they a true representative sample of the larger community?

I’m honestly not sure what you are asking by the last part of your question. As to the first part, even though I’m not sure what importance there is in knowing RT clients are a small population, I can only assume they are in fact a small population in contrast to the larger homosexual population as a whole.

“Would you refer a client to another therapist if the client decided he wanted to be a monogamous relationship? Finally, what percent of your practice is really RT, if you care to share?”

No, without any further information, I wouldn’t have any reason to refer out. Also, about 95% of my clients are in RT. I have some gay clients who don’t want to change. And, I have a few who are dealing with marriage problems or OCD.

@Ken: “What are these root causes? and how have you determined these factors (“roots”) are what determines a person’s sexual orientation?

Of course these are great questions. Answering them adequately and fully can’t be done unless I get into an immensely long blog. In short, (and very inadequately), I believe the root causes to be a severe lack of affirmation of gender identity, lack of approval by male and female role models, and lack of emotional/physical affection, mainly experienced within the crucial developmental years in which identity is first formed, Typically, a boy in this situation is usually and tragically shamed and emotionally abused by several people during his upbringing. This is an attachment issue which is hurtful and often repressed because often these boys can’t handle such feelings of shame and grief. Repression can be a powerful defense mechanism from feeling deep feelings and shame-based belief systems. It can lead to a kind of “false self” which is hard to detect many times. Since this explanation is not adequate, I would suggest you consider reading Nicolosi’s book, “Shame and Attachment Loss.” It’s all there and is profoundly compelling (in my opinion).

“Can you give some specific examples of what has changed and how you measured it?”

In session and over time, I have assessed a major change in affect. The male client’s self esteem as a man significantly rises and his self confidence increases. He discovers his authentic self through breaking the shame-based abuse while finally feeling his long repressed grief and anger. His homosexual feelings decrease or disssipate naturally and spontaneously as he heals from his repressed wounds. His relationships with men become very loving and affirming as he experiences his authentic self in relationship with other men. Some of those long unfulfilled needs become fulfilled as well. Some move on to erotic love for women.

Also, just as most other therapists measure client progress with other issues, my most important measurement is what the client himself reports. All the things described above are reported by successful clients who express their authentic feelings. Their affect and actions are congruent with what they tell me. Their emotional change I see in session simply cannot be faked unless they are extraordinary actors. I believe the client is always the focal point. Any good therapist knows the client’s experience, affect, behavior and consistency over the long term are good measurements of change and growth.

“What is the definition of success in Reparative Therapy? And again, how is it measured?”

See above.

And, I believe there are many types and levels of success in RT. If the client feels happier while being on this journey, then this is probably a good sign of success, as in other issues people deal with. It seems that success is largely based on the motivation of the client, how deep his gender and emotional wounds are, and how caring and well trained his therapist is.

“Exodus has been around for nearly 40 years now. Have you ever spoke out against their methods before?”

I really don’t know what you mean exactly by “spoke out.”

“Again, can you cite any of this strong scientific evidence that change in sexual orientation is possible?”

Sure…see the Yarhouse/Jones study on change, and the Robert Spitzer study. They’re both accessible online on any browser, or you can go to http://www.narth .com to find them.

@David M:

Of course I forgive you. Thank you. And don’t give it a second thought. I honor you.

@Teresa: “BTW, how long is the average RT client in therapy; and, how much does this cost in-total?”

Certainly relevant questions. And, there are so many varying answers. So I answer these questions only while in an introductory consultation with a client.

@Michael: “I was wondering if David Pickup might have some insight as to why Alan Chambers would tell NARTH that “tens of thousands have successfully changed their sexual orientation” and then tell the Gay Christian Network that “99.9%” do not?”

I honestly do not have any insight into why Alan stated what he did that is based on any discussions with him personally. I have wondered aloud what I am sincerely afraid might be going on as I stated in my article, (based on many professional and personal experiences I’ve had), but I can’t give sure insight. I’m hoping Alan will comment more about this in public.

I’m very glad that you (at least sort of) reject that idiotic ‘blame the parents’ nonsense.

I don’t agree with the idea that gay men have to lose their same-sex attraction in order to have good friendships with other men, any more than straight men have to lose their opposite-sex attraction in order to have good friendships with women. And cannot low self-esteem be attributed to external factors such as the need for secrecy or rejection and/or vilification by emotionally-challenged people who, on no objective grounds, feel threatened by gays?

“I believe you mean well, but the attribution of poor parenting seems impossible to avoid. This surely isn’t good parenting.”

Well, if poor parenting includes (for whatever reason) the lack of a father and mother to affirm their child’s gender identity, to approve of them (unconditional love), to give them affection, or to narcissistically (unconsciously) parentify their son, all without intending to do this, then sure, one could say that would be poor parenting. I’m surprised that you would identify poor parenting because I didn’t think you believed that poor parenting (in the sense above) was one of the causes of homosexuality.

Additionally, I believe that if I or anyone makes a general remark that homosexuality is caused by poor parenting leaves the impression that parents are horrible, unloving people who deserve to be judged. This is why I stay away from this term. I’m all for the discovery of truth, even if it hurts, but I’m not into blaming and judging. When I have parents in session, whether they do or don’t understand the underlying causes, I show them unconditional positive regard. I find that parents who respond well in therapy have a very positive effect on the change of their son’s identity issues.

“You are saying that the parents of homosexuals did not show love nor did they approve of their children. First of all, many parents indeed are like this and homosexuality in a child does not result. Second, many homosexuals do not have such homes.”

For me, the assumption above is way too generic. Of course these parents show love and approval. I think every parent intends this to be given, and mostly these parents are doing the best they can. This doesn’t necessarily mean the child receives what he needs, or enough of it. If they did, we wouldn’t be discovering deeply repressed grief, anger and identity shame. In my clinical and personal experience, most, if not all, male homosexuals do not experience an attachment to their caregivers, mentoring adults or peers that is deeply connected, only in very well intentioned but “surface” ways; ways that appear to be good to some extent but tragically are not enough or at all what a child needs. I suggest we not focus on blaming parents, but on what real hope and change we can give to those men who want and need reparative therapy.

@Ken:

“What is your explanation for the gay men and women who have parents that loved them, showed them affection, and affirmed their gender identity?”

See above.

“What is your explanation for straight men who had a severe lack of affirmation of gender identity, lack of approval by male and female role models, and lack of emotional/physical affection?”

This is such a relevant question. I get it all the time. In my experience, straight men’s wounds in this area are no where near the crushing blow to their identities as they are with men who develop homosexually. In short, it hurts a lot, but not down deep enough that it affects their gender/sexual identity. Straight men, (I don’t like that term), have much more of their inborn male needs fulfilled.

Oh … I must confess that it was I who started that silly thing about names – rather for the same reason that David M. responded to my comment. I can be somewhat acerbic at times … Sorry about that; it wasn’t appropriate behaviour. One of my failings is that I sometimes find it difficult to resist the temptation to make a cutting remark.)